NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm going to outline a situation for you. I've a vote here for you to click which one you would do. If you could please give me your honest votes, and the reasoning behind them, I would appreciate it. I will not answer any questions as to who this concerns, or if this is a hypothetical or actual situation, or if it's happening now - has happened - or anything of the like. Just looking for opinions, and the justifications/explanations for those opinions.

You're in your mid-20s. You've moved across the country to be with someone you met online, fell in love with, and have now lived with them for nearly three years. Now, you've also a 20 month old child in the mix. This person tells you, out of the clear blue sky, that they do not love you any longer, they have a new love, and will be moving this person into the home. You are able to stay (since you are 100% homemaker for the child, and have not had a job in three years to care for the house and child) until you are able to find a new place to be, but you must now live with your now-ex (who you thought was THE ONE but they apparantly had different ideas) and their new love.

You plan, of course, to take the child to one of your parents' houses, whichever one you get along better with and whoever has more resources to extend to you in your time of need, until you are able to get a job and a place and such whatnot... semi-normal breakup procedure (excepting, of course, that you are living with your ex until the move is able to happen).

Then. Three things happen at once. Your ex tells you that they want to keep the child... and with two adults, with two full time salaries (and your exes new love? their mother is a daycare operator) a stable house and home and neighborhood they will win it in courts, so just make it easy and leave the child when you go. Within 24 hours of hearing this, your parent that you have been making plans with tells you that while they are willing to help you ... they have like... nothing to offer except the floor of their kitchen for you to sleep and you have to leave everything you have behind because they have no room for it. Within 24 hours of hearing THAT, you find yourself in a position to go to another country, in which you would have free health/dental care (for being a resident of their country, taxes are higher, but you get your checkups covered) and a very strong possibility of returning to college.

A few sidenote pieces of information...
Your ex and their love are willing to sign something stating that if they ever separate, the child will be yours. No stream of new step-parents to mangle the childs' senses anymore than they need to be.
You have made arrangements to IM, webcam, phone call, and sporadic visits with your child, and intend to (and are being supported to do so by your ex) have a major hand in raising your child.
Your exes love (which you are living with, remember) is someone who you do not hate, and feel would be dedicated to the well-being of your child.

So, tell me. Would you:
A: Fight for the child, even though you have no chance to win, and no finances or stability or even a job or a roof to offer... but it's just THAT important that you keep the child.
B: Go be with your parent, scraping and clawing your way up the ladder, working until you can't think anymore to try and gather enough money to have a place to live, and THEN fight for your child. Keeping you and the child at the bottom of the barrel, welfare dependant and struggling on the brink of destitution and poverty because the only thing you can do is 2-3 fast food/grocery store jobs at a time that just barely covers the rent.
C: Go overseas, get a college degree, get your health and dental taken care of, get a well-paying job and be financially stable by the time your child is 10, and then legally have the child's decisions on which parent they would like to live with - or possibly move within constant contact range of your ex - or whatever the situation is in 8-9 years from now, but your parent is telling you that you are abandoning your child and making a decision based on selfishness and stupidity.

Thank you for your time, and your honesty.

Are you guys really not interested in this? Bush & Kerry fighting so interesting, engrossing, can't tear yourselves away?

Are you guys really not interested in this? Bush & Kerry fighting so interesting, engrossing, can't tear yourselves away?

whoa! Hold on, I'm trying to collect my thoughts on this. Give me a few and I'll try to give you an older woman's opinion.

I think that anyone who looks for love over the internet and flies to another country to be with someone they've never meet does not need to be taking care of a child.

My choice would be to leave with the child, go to the country's embassy, tell them the story & beg them for help, the embassy will arrange a flight, and move in with the parents until there's financial assistance available.

If you leave the child there, it will only make things worse when attempting to get the child back. Most courts consider it abandonment.

I think that anyone who looks for love over the internet and flies to another country to be with someone they've never meet does not need to be taking care of a child.

You've moved across the country to be with someone you met online, fell in love with, and have now lived with them for nearly three years.

Did not search for love online, found it by chance. Was willing and eager to commit and stay the duration for the family, to make the love work, but this was apparantly not to be. Did not leave the country, just crossed the country. West coast to east. Parents are in the same country Choice C will be the first leaving of the home country.

zooke - I posted this last night and got nothing :) I'm eager for responses, though I don't mean to rush you, just wanted to get it off the fourth page :rolleyes:

Sheesh, this is a hard one. It sounds (now don't take offence) like a dear abby. It isn't though, so I'll try to think. Is there any way at all to live in the same country at least as your child without moving in with your parents?(I say 'your' because I don't have anyone else to address it to. If this is not your problem but a friends or something, you understand) I guess that I just don't have enough info to get at the answer to this one. Has the 'lover' been using you, or do you actually have marital strife? Are your parents going to drive you crazy? I don't thik that moving out of the country is an option unless you want to stay out of the babies life forever. If you aren't there during the formative years, then the kid probably wouldn't choose you, and you wouldn't have a foot to stand on, legally. So I would go with either a or b. if there's a possibility that you can stay in the same city as your child, so much the better. Keep in mind that if you want your kid back, you can't be seen to give up, even if you intend to get back to him (her?) later. Once someone is legally a child's gardian, it's very very hard to reverse it. So basically, I think that you should fight for the kid, and get a good lawer if possible. That's A, ain't it. No matter what you choose, good luck. I wish you the most.

A: Fight for the child, even though you have no chance to win, and no finances or stability or even a job or a roof to offer... but it's just THAT important that you keep the child.

B: Go be with your parent, scraping and clawing your way up the ladder, working until you can't think anymore to try and gather enough money to have a place to live, and THEN fight for your child. Keeping you and the child at the bottom of the barrel, welfare dependant and struggling on the brink of destitution and poverty because the only thing you can do is 2-3 fast food/grocery store jobs at a time that just barely covers the rent.

C: Go overseas, get a college degree, get your health and dental taken care of, get a well-paying job and be financially stable by the time your child is 10, and then legally have the child's decisions on which parent they would like to live with - or possibly move within constant contact range of your ex - or whatever the situation is in 8-9 years from now, but your parent is telling you that you are abandoning your child and making a decision based on selfishness and stupidity.

Looking at the tone in your options, it appears as though C is what you'd really like to do. If you do choose C it will invariable damage your relationship with your child impacting his or her decision as to whether they'd want to live with a mother they've had limited contact with in 8 years. You could cross your fingers and hope they understand, but at the age of 10 it is unlikely. So I think the reality of rosy option C is a little more complex, and in contrast, I don't think options A and B are as grim as you let on.

You have made arrangements to IM, webcam, phone call, and sporadic visits with your child, and intend to (and are being supported to do so by your ex) have a major hand in raising your child.

I know this is different than actually being in the home with your child...

Being totally and completely, 100% in the home, no job for roughly three years, there are very few options. There's no money available to you for a car, or a home, or even moving all your stuff at this point, let alone to find a "good" lawyer.

To make some of the placements easier, let's use an example. The us map... child and ex are in new england. Your parents... mother is on the west coast father is in the south. When you leave, whether it's with or without your child, the child will be missing the other parent. ((I'm not going into gender with this, because a lot of people do not feel that the father is as important to the child as the mother, and I want to avoid that sort of ... bias.)) Because of the extreme lack of finances, there will be major difficulties keeping the child in contact with your ex in any situation you place them in, even affording something like long distance is out of the question.

Oh I see, I misread it due to skimming.
Never leave the child. The courts define this as abandonment.
Leave that place and take the child with you.
Struggle; as many people do.

Choice C seems to be the most wise decision to me. There won't be much of a chance of getting your child that way, since, unless your ex is a very bad parent, the parental figure a child grows up with will be who he or she is attached to. Choice C is a little selfish, maybe, but is the only one where you have a chance to make something for yourself. The other two will probably only cause problems and strife. As long as your child is to be well taken care of...as much as it may pain you, you probably should give him or her up... My pragmatic and emotionally lacking two cents worth.

OK, first of all, I don't accept Plan A, B or C. I propose some alternative options.

You believe that you wouldn't stand a chance of keeping custody because you don't have a stable environment to provide your child. What can you do to immediately correct that? Although it may go against your sense of pride, it is for extreme temporary situations such as this for which government entitlements are intended. I don't know where you live, but I would assume that health care, food stamps, housing assistance, utility assistance, and monthly stipends are available. Explore these and take the steps necessary to get them. There is no doubt a number of church-based and community-based charitable organizations that can help out with most of your immediate needs, including housing. Your level of living would be fundamental, but custody courts do not award custody based on gross income. Your ex has shown himself to be inconstant and unfeeling (to the point of cruel) in regards to you and that would weight in the courts. It is your job to keep your child's welfare your sole primary concern.

Now, let's say you have subsidized housing and a way to keep the utilities on and food on the table. How do you improve your over-all situation. Again, there are loans, grants and scholarships available. If you are in the US, there are programs available to help single parents further their education, including child care and transportation costs. Look for and apply for EVERYTHING that can help you reach these goals. Many single parents have done it and you can too!!

If you want to keep your child, this is what I would do. It won't be easy, not by a mile. You'll be tired, frustrated, and harried. But, if you keep the goal in mind and devote yourself to it, you will make it. If you are looking for the "easy" way, you can humor yourself by thinking that your ex and his (love?) latest will provide much better than you and keep you as a participating mother in the child's life. Why would he consider your part in this when he has already made you and your child accept another woman in the niche you held? If he wanted to switch partners, why didn't he discuss it with you, help you and the child find suitable living, and then move in his latest? Why did she agree to this situation? I'm sorry, but if some man told me he loved me and wanted me to be with him, but that his ex would be living there, too, I would RUN from that wacko as fast as I could! There is something very basically wrong with both their logic! Is this the kind of ethics you want taught to your child? The truth is, once you are out of the house, you can pretty well count on being out of the child's life, too. Did you ever consider that by doing this that it could be considered "desertion" by the courts, forever severing your ties to your child?

Let's say you allow him and his latest to keep the child and later he decides to switch partners, again. You enforce your right to regain custody. What is this doing to the child? How can a child grow up feeling safe, secure and self-confident when it's life is dependent on the romantic whims of its parents? Imagine a 5 year old being told "I am your mommy now".

Lastly, though I'll probably think of a few more points later, petition the courts to make him pay child support. I don't know what his income level is, but considering his callous treatment of you and disregard for his child's stability, I doubt that they will be easy on him. Courts dealing with chidlren's issues are basically conservative in nature and they take offense to behavior such as his. Every time he gets a raise or a bonus take him back to court and get his child support order amended proportionately. In other words, rake this schmuck over the coals! It's past time to realize there are benefits and consequences to all of our actions.

Well, there's my nickel's worth.

I am a Father.
This question is simple.
If you need to ask someone else what to do...
A whole lot of mean stuff I would rather say to your face.....

For the record I have four kids a 9th grade education, my first wife did not get my two daughters-I fought- and sweated, worked, sacrificed, abandoned my friends, turned my back on anything that seperate me from them, If there is not a rage, blood boiling hate for anyone who take your child from you ...more mean stuff......My second wife would kill me before she let me take the kids-Where as my first had no fight in her, and eventual killed herself because she had no love other then her own self pity.
My God!!
....more mean stuff.......
I am not telling you to fight.



I am saying you and only you KNOW what needs to be done.
Feck all these opinions, you know if these people are worthy of your child.
Only you know if YOU are worthy of this child.
YOU know without a doubt what you SHOULD do, now the question is are going to wait until someone finally suggests what you WANT to hear, or are you going to do what is right---Because nobody here can tell you what that is.

I am a Father.
This question is simple.
If you need to ask someone else what to do...
A whole lot of mean stuff I would rather say to your face.....

For the record I have four kids a 9th grade education, my first wife did not get my two daughters-I fought- and sweated, worked, sacrificed, abandoned my friends, turned my back on anything that seperate me from them, If there is not a rage, blood boiling hate for anyone who take your child from you ...more mean stuff......My second wife would kill me before she let me take the kids-Where as my first had no fight in her, and eventual killed herself because she had no love other then her own self pity.
My God!!
....more mean stuff.......
I am not telling you to fight.



I am saying you and only you KNOW what needs to be done.
Feck all these opinions, you know if these people are worthy of your child.
Only you know if YOU are worthy of this child.
YOU know without a doubt what you SHOULD do, now the question is are going to wait until someone finally suggests what you WANT to hear, or are you going to do what is right---Because nobody here can tell you what that is.

He is right. I am the adoptive mother of 4 and the exhausted grandmother of 9. No one or anything would or could take precedence over my kids and grandchildren. I know that I was blessed with having probably some of the best parents in the world and I would do anything to keep my kids with me and give them the same love, guidance, and encouragement my parents gave me. Raising them was a constant source of work, worry, and frustration. It was also a constant source of pride, joy, and unbelievable love. Do you have this fierce love for your child? That is the core question, here.

At risk of anti-Christian flame here, I will say that children are God's greatest gift to us. They are our reason for "being".

Bedou - the decision is not affected by this thread, but possibly something will surface from the opinions expressed here that would open some trains of thought in all involved.

Zooke - Subsidized housing? Like... Section 8? Like... 4 year long waiting list? When it comes to welfare and government aid there is no 'immediate' solution. WIC was utalized during and just after the pregnancy, it took roughly 3 months to process and was cancelled with no warning or attempt to contact because an appointment was missed by 45 minutes... and that's just supplimentary foodstuffs.

The latest had to be moved in because of financial situations. Without an additional income, phone, electric, gas, would all be shut off, and eventually eviction for the entirety. Government aid, in many ways, was applied for and rejected. (Can you see why this couple has sort of a sore spot when it comes to welfare? The requirements, the rules and red tapes and hoops to jump through make it so that it does not always work the way it says it does - or that people think it does) Our homemaker protaganist searched, hard and long, for any sort of work. 6 months applying through any agency online that would take the resume, filling out applications at fast food places, grocery stores, thrift shops, anything and everything. Mildly qualified for office work, applied for secretarial and receptionist positions. Rejected, denied, sometimes even outright ignored.

What would happen is parent and child at the father's (which is a tiny trailor, they already have one child that has their bed in the closet because there are not enough rooms, parent and child would be sleeping on the kitchen floor) or mother's house, very temporarily, mother is planning to move within 3 months and could not take parent and child with her.

There will never be a question as to who the parent is, no "I'm you're parent now" ... just, "You're living with me now" Child support from the ex right now would be $60 a week.

If I repeat what is been said its because I am lazy and dont want to read everybody's post, I am sorry. BUt I would choose B. You need a home before you can fight in court because if you don't atleast have that they will laugh at you. No way you will win. You probably wouldnt even get a second court date. IF YOU LEAVE THE COUNTRY your child will NEVER forgive you. You child, dispite what their told by pareants will always believe you have abandoned them. I speak from experience(except no one ever tried to tell me that I wasnt abandoned.). When you come back and they ahve the choice to live with you because of their age they will not choose to live with you. They will 10 and have known one home and one set of parents (even if the child see u on the net) for 10 years. Unless there is some type of abuse, I dont see the child uproot their life to go live with a mother they have only known through the net. You mention when you were on welfare you would be forcing the kid to live with struggles such as minor poverty. That probably wont happen. I know many people living off the system and they are doing MUCH MUCH better then I am.(granet my parent has no job and I only work part time because of school.) But really you would be surprized what you can get outta the government. Are you a minority?.... they will probably give you more if you are. If you use the system and get a part time job under the table at a pizza shop youll be even better off. Now keep in mind I am not saying that you and your child will be walking around in name brand clothes and 110$ shoes. But I know you would be doing fine enough. I hope I have helped and I am sorry the message is so long winded.please up date on how you are doing.

At risk of anti-Christian flame here, I will say that children are God's greatest gift to us. They are our reason for "being".

There is faith involved, though I will not say which faith or to what degree for this exact reason. I have seen these boards, and I do not wish for this to stumble and fall, crash and burn, into another of these religious flaming attacks that are so common here.

Lots of you are making assumptions on the gender of the protaginist, and the timing, and that I am the one focused here. I will not deny or validate these assumptions... just try to look at it as if was you in this spot, and say what you would end up doing. A great many times people will give advice and suggestions, but are unable to put themselves in the place of hardship.

I'm pleased with what has come so far, and I thank you all for it... lookin forward to more! :)

Bedou - the decision is not affected by this thread, but possibly something will surface from the opinions expressed here that would open some trains of thought in all involved.

Zooke - Subsidized housing? Like... Section 8? Like... 4 year long waiting list? When it comes to welfare and government aid there is no 'immediate' solution. WIC was utalized during and just after the pregnancy, it took roughly 3 months to process and was cancelled with no warning or attempt to contact because an appointment was missed by 45 minutes... and that's just supplimentary foodstuffs.

The latest had to be moved in because of financial situations. Without an additional income, phone, electric, gas, would all be shut off, and eventually eviction for the entirety. Government aid, in many ways, was applied for and rejected. (Can you see why this couple has sort of a sore spot when it comes to welfare? The requirements, the rules and red tapes and hoops to jump through make it so that it does not always work the way it says it does - or that people think it does) Our homemaker protaganist searched, hard and long, for any sort of work. 6 months applying through any agency online that would take the resume, filling out applications at fast food places, grocery stores, thrift shops, anything and everything. Mildly qualified for office work, applied for secretarial and receptionist positions. Rejected, denied, sometimes even outright ignored.

What would happen is parent and child at the father's (which is a tiny trailor, they already have one child that has their bed in the closet because there are not enough rooms, parent and child would be sleeping on the kitchen floor) or mother's house, very temporarily, mother is planning to move within 3 months and could not take parent and child with her.

There will never be a question as to who the parent is, no "I'm you're parent now" ... just, "You're living with me now" Child support from the ex right now would be $60 a week.

I believe that the entitlement problems vary from state to state. I gather you are talking of an eastern US high population area? I can only speak of what I know about conditions here in Arkansas. A few years ago my daughter suffered severe burns and was unable to work for 2 years. She was a single parent of 2. She was able to receive housing assistance to pay the rent on the house she was in. Later, she was allowed to switch her housing assistance to another house closer to her father and me. She also received help with utilities, transportation, medical, home health care, food, education, childcare, school costs, etc. While recuperating, she continued her education, and, when she was able, opened a bakery with a small business administration loan. Keeping up with all of the red tape and "interviews" were basically a full-time job, but she did it and made a better life for herself and her children. It's a matter of attitude. Are they roadblocks or challenges? If it's important enough to you, you'll find a way.

Sorry 'bout the 'good lawer' thing. But there are lawers that will take your case despite the fact that you can't pay them unless they win. There are people who specialize in this kind of thing. In the end, I think that whatever you DO choose, it shouldn't be because some stranger in a online forum recomended it. Talk to a friend or two who know the situation. Are you a religious person? talk to whoever is the official person in your religion. There are many ways to fight for your child, and the reality is that you might not win, no matter how hard you fight. The question is, is it worth that risk? If not, then by all means go to another country and get a degree of some sort. But don't fool yourself into thinking that the kid is going to choose you after not growing up with you.

Lots of you are making assumptions on the gender of the protaginist, and the timing, and that I am the one focused here. I will not deny or validate these assumptions... just try to look at it as if was you in this spot, and say what you would end up doing. A great many times people will give advice and suggestions, but are unable to put themselves in the place of hardship.

I am directing responses to you to make posts direct. Apply where needed. :)


The latest had to be moved in because of financial situations. Without an additional income, phone, electric, gas, would all be shut off, and eventually eviction for the entirety. Government aid, in many ways, was applied for and rejected. (Can you see why this couple has sort of a sore spot when it comes to welfare? The requirements, the rules and red tapes and hoops to jump through make it so that it does not always work the way it says it does - or that people think it does) Our homemaker protaganist searched, hard and long, for any sort of work. 6 months applying through any agency online that would take the resume, filling out applications at fast food places, grocery stores, thrift shops, anything and everything. Mildly qualified for office work, applied for secretarial and receptionist positions. Rejected, denied, sometimes even outright ignored.

I've been an accountant for 30 years. When the company I worked for moved out of state a few years ago, it took me almost 5 months to find another job. I was rejected, denied, and sometimes even outright ignored. What really ticked me off were the ones trying to get an accountant for a clerk's wage. I listed with every headhunter in the area and took every temp assignment I could get that would pay more than my unemployment. My daughter's friends all saved their aluminum cans for her. She was able to supplement her income by almost $200 a month just with these cans. It is absolutely unbelieveable how many people drink Dr. Pepper!!

The impossible takes longer to achieve than the merely difficult.

You must do what is best for the child. If the ex is a caring loving parent and can provide financial and emotional support for the child then maybe that is what would be best for the child.
If there is no animosity between you and the ex, sit down and discuss it with him/her without the new lover present. Maybe you can work out a legeal "shared custody" arrangement if that would be in the best interest of the child. Sleeping on the floor in the kitchen doesn't sound like it would be in the best interest and $60 child support won't even buy food.
Good luck.

Regardless if I was the mother or father, had I spent everyday of my child's life being home with them and caring for them (cooking, cleaning, playing, comforting) just to have the "breadwinner" come home one day to say "ok - you're out, this other person's in", I would fight tooth and nail for my child. So what if there was a snowball's chance in Hell for me to win right then? When the time came in the future that I was finally able (financially) to have custody of my child, I would rather be able to say I had fought all the way up because they were that important, than to say I had some other things I had to take care of first. It sounds so much easier when it's typed out on a screen, and I hope it doesn't sound like I think that would be easy. This sounds like one of the hardest situations life can throw at a person, and for anyone ever in that position, I wish them the best and hope they can find a way to drive forward through the worst for the love of a child.

Actually, I am dating a woman who was and is in a simular situation. You do what you think is best for both you AND the child in the long term. If that means being seperated from your child for a while while you get on your feet and in a better situation to care for you child, then so be it.

I would stay with the ex til I find a new place to live in the same area. And certainly fight for my baby, and win. I wouldn' t live in a country where I'd have no changes in court in a case like this.

edit: Ok, the situation was worse than I thought. But as many have said, leaving without child basically means that you give up the fight. What about concerted-parenting (? I made it up, my dictionary didn't know the word)