NationStates Jolt Archive

This is from an Internet blog...but I think it hits the nail on the head as to why so many opted for Bush instead of Kerry....


How You Could Have Had My Vote
It's been two days since John Kerry conceded, and all I am seeing, hearing and reading from the Democratic party is that you guys think you lost on "moral values." You seem to think this means nothing more than opposition to gay marriage. You seem to think that Bush voters waited in line for hours to stick it to the queers, to tell those faggots how much we hate them!

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Many Bush voters, like myself, were not happy to be voting for the President's re-election. Many Bush voters agonized over our decision and cast our vote in fear, trepidation, and trembling. Many of us would have given our left arms for a Democrat we could have supported.

Because I am too young to be as disillusioned as I am, and because I know that one-party rule is not good for my country, and because it is my deepest wish to see the Democratic party change into one I can give my whole-hearted support, I am going to explain why you didn't get my vote, and how you can get it in the future.

First, for context, let me give you a bit about my perspective: I am a single, heterosexual, college-educated woman in my late 20's with an annual income of about $30,000. I live in a solidly red state in the South, the region you guys wrote off entirely without even trying to persuade us to vote for you. I am not an ideologue, and I experience painful ambivalence about many political issues. The notion of an abortion makes me queasy, but I don't want Roe vs. Wade overturned. I have friends who've been impregnated by rape and friends who found out late in their third trimesters that they were carrying babies too malformed to ever have normal lives. The pictures of Iraqi children who've lost arms from the bombs my tax dollars bought make me shed tears, but I recognize that the war was the right thing to do, given the information we had available at the time the decision was made. I had no health insurance for three years, but I'm still, hesitantly, not in favor of socialized medicine. I know people who abuse the social services, but I also have friends who would be dead without the food stamps and SSI checks they collect each month. I believe in God and consider myself a Christian, but I don't go to church, and Falwell, Robertson, and their ilk scare me more than they scare you. I believe that in a perfect world, Roy Moore would have to live with the stench of his own ego, just like the rest of us do.

I have gay friends who are closeted and gay friends who couldn't be more open if they had QUEER tattooed across their foreheads, and I think they should be allowed to get married if they want to. I read The Onion, Dilbert, Dan Savage's sex advice, Salon.com, and quite a few blogs. The local librarians know me on sight. I waited in line until midnight when the fifth Harry Potter book came out. I can't wait to see the new Chucky movie. I will probably shack up before I get married, but I won't be proud of it. I wouldn't buy an SUV, even if I could pay cash for one. I recycle. I shop at Wal-mart, but I feel guilty about it, and if they unionized, I would never cross the picket line. I think FOX News is about as fair and balanced as a seesaw with a gorilla on one end.

President Bush's close relationships to people like John Ashcroft scare me. I hate the PATRIOT Act and am fearful of what might be part of PATRIOT II. The two dumbest trial balloons I've heard floated for his second-term agenda are privatizing Social Security and abolishing the income tax. When he says that God chose him to be President during this time of trial, I am embarrassed. I roll my eyes.

I am a pragmatic, disillusioned, realistic, and entirely ordinary member of the radical middle.

Here is why you didn't get my vote:

1. You didn't give me clear positions on the issues. I followed the news closely all through the campaign, but I still don't understand Kerry's position on Iraq. I know he voted for the IWR, but then he voted against the $87 billion. To you, that seemed to be a symbolic stand against Saddam Hussein (the IWR) but also a principled stand against a President who was out of control (against the $87 billion). To me, that was just confusing. He said he would have done everything different, but he also said that, knowing what he knew today (the day he was asked) he still would have cast the same vote. He said that he would bring allies to our side to share the burden, but he also said he would be sending 40,000 more of our troops. He said that we must finish the job, but he also said it was the wrong war at the wrong place and the wrong time. Huh?

2. You didn't convince me that you would defend America against the threats of terrorism. Kerry seemed to think that terrorism is like any other crime. You catch the people responsible and put them in jail, and that's that. After seeing the destruction – physical, financial, psychological, and emotional -- wrought by the September 11th attacks, I do not understand how he could believe this. The hijackers lived among us, ate at our restaurants, shopped in our malls, and wounded us worse than we have ever been wounded before. How Kerry saw this as a crime, and not as a paradigm-shifting event that deserved a military response, both in direct retaliation and to keep it from ever happening again by going on the offensive, is something I don't understand.

3. You insulted my intelligence by the constant mantra of Kerry's service in Vietnam. Most of the men I know who are older than 50 served in some way, either in country or in the Coast Guard or other non-combat roles. I don't see the relevance, and the drumbeat of "three purple hearts" struck me as manipulation. It was as if you were saying, "These dumbshit hawks want war? We'll give 'em a real war hero! That'll get their votes!"

4. Your constant references to the opinions of the rest of the world scared me, and I'm not talking about the "global test" comment. I don't care what Europeans think about me or my country. I learned in high school that living my life with one eye on the opinions of everyone else leads only to unnecessary turmoil and pointless pain. Why didn't you?

5. You disturbed me with your demonization of the rich. Rich people were talked about in this campaign as though they were all evil cheaters who had wage slaves tied up in the basement to be flogged for minimum wage, and what they didn't earn from the wage slaves' labor, they stole from nursing home residents. I am not rich, but I work hard, am learning about investing money, am continuing to improve my prospects for earning more money in the future, and fully expect to end up at least well-off someday. If I do, it will be because of my efforts and work, not because of winning "life's lottery." I know two millionaires personally. Both are entrepreneurs who took big risks and worked their backsides off for years to get where they are. Given that Kerry is married to a billionaire, this seemed especially hypocritical.

6. Here is something you could work on right about now: I could not stomach to listen to your incessant hatred of President Bush. Bush is stupid, Bush is an idiot, Bush is Hitler, Bush is a Nazi, Bush masturbates to photos of dead Iraqi babies, I'd vote for my dog before I'd vote for Bush, I'd vote for Castro before I'd vote for Bush, the Rethuglicans are fascists, Bush voters are treasonous, Bush should be impeached, blah blah blah blah blah blah. It was old three months after Bush's inauguration, and it's now just tiresome. I don't hate my President, even though I voted for him with more reluctance than I can express and a queasy feeling in my stomach. Language like this makes you seem immature, needlessly vulgar, and obnoxious.

7. Lastly, and I hope this doesn't hurt anyone feelings, because my objective is to make you think, not emote: I don't think you really want my vote. I actively sought out your perspective. I tuned in regularly, for months, to your biggest media project, your serious effort to get your message out: Air America Radio. I listened all day on Good Friday as host after host mocked people like me for believing in Jesus's life, death, and resurrection. I listened as Janeane Garofalo, who was one of my favorite comedians for years, expressed hatred and disgust for Bush voters so vile that I ended my live stream feeling assaulted, as if I'd been vomited on. I listened the night that Mike Malloy told a young Republican to hang up the phone and go open a vein. I listened to pure, unadulterated venom that was so intense I sometimes cut the stream and cried. Tonight, your spokespeople on AAR have been calling people like me "snake-handling evangelicals," and that was about the kindest thing I heard. Um…y'all? I've lived in the South my entire life and have never met a single snake-handler. Your attitudes, language, and behavior toward people like me: reasonable, thinking Christians who are quite moderate politically and who are just as well-informed as you are (yes, I've read all the PNAC essays, too, and yes, they scare me, too) is reminiscent of nothing so much as an abusive ex-lover, a crazy and drunken stalker. "I'll make you love me, or you'll regret it, you worthless bitch! Come here and let me beat you over the head and tell you how stupid and worthless you are! Then you'll see it my way!"


I tried so hard to give you guys a chance. I'm young, I'm not extremely religious, and I'm supportive of liberal ideals like fighting for higher wages, stopping outsourcing of jobs, and standing up for the little guy. I wanted to vote Democratic this time, more than I can possibly put into words. You just didn't give me the option.

President Bush won on values, yes, but not hatred of gays or any other stereotype you have in your head about Bush voters like me.

He won because he has values, clearly defined values, and even though I agree with little of what he believes, at least I know what he believes. At least I know that he really does believe in something. At least I know that he will do what he says he will do.

That's disgustingly little, but unbelievably – you offered me less.

So, if you want my vote next time, and the vote of all my close friends, and the millions more like us that you refuse to believe exists, it's pretty simple: take positions and don't waffle on them. Stand up for America, especially with regard to terrorism. Shut up about what Germany and France think. Stop pretending that the only way to become wealthy in America is to cheat, for the sake of those of us who still want to get there. Treat the President with at least as much civility, if not respect, as you would've wanted right-wingers to give a President Kerry. Most importantly, please, please please, please, please, please stop abusing me. No more verbal and psychological and emotional savagery. Treat me like a voter whose vote you would actually appreciate getting, and you will get it.

Do you maybe, just maybe, see where I'm coming from?

I doubt it. But I had to try.


Sincerely,


A Very Sad American

ummm...

It seems to me more that you arent sure what you want...

except to restate Bush propoganda... Please consider the TRUTH before you post again.

ummm...

It seems to me more that you arent sure what you want...

except to restate Bush propoganda... Please consider the TRUTH before you post again.
Congratulations! You just made her point! :)

ummm...

It seems to me more that you arent sure what you want...

except to restate Bush propoganda... Please consider the TRUTH before you post again.

I was hoping for thoughtful replies....

Perhaps next time you should plug your ears, close your eyes, and yell "lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala" at the top of your voice.

She seems to say that she thinks it's terrible for Democrats to fight dirty in elections, but that it's OK for Republicans.

I'm amazed that she would still vote for Bush, after all he has actually done that is against her beliefs, than vote for Kerry because "Democrats are too mean."

While I would agree with some of the points about the garbled message, the person lost me completely at the end. the final complaint beng how much of this they based on their determined attempt to discern the mindset of the average Democrat.... by listening to Air America!!!



That's the logical equivalent of the average Demcrat trying to tell Republicans that they had decided to base their voting decision on the ravings of Rush Limbaugh....

She seems to say that she thinks it's terrible for Democrats to fight dirty in elections, but that it's OK for Republicans.

I'm amazed that she would still vote for Bush, after all he has actually done that is against her beliefs, than vote for Kerry because "Democrats are too mean."

People "expect" republicans to be mean. The liberal media and dem party hacks have made it a stereo-type so no-one gets very upset about it. On the other hand they are so effusive in their praise for Democrats and their stateman like behavior, when dems are mean it upsets people because it goes against the media stereo-type. In other words people expect more form democrats.

Talk about propoganda backfiring. :)

7. Lastly, and I hope this doesn't hurt anyone feelings, because my objective is to make you think, not emote: I don't think you really want my vote. I actively sought out your perspective. I tuned in regularly, for months, to your biggest media project, your serious effort to get your message out: Air America Radio. I listened all day on Good Friday as host after host mocked people like me for believing in Jesus's life, death, and resurrection. I listened as Janeane Garofalo, who was one of my favorite comedians for years, expressed hatred and disgust for Bush voters so vile that I ended my live stream feeling assaulted, as if I'd been vomited on. I listened the night that Mike Malloy told a young Republican to hang up the phone and go open a vein. I listened to pure, unadulterated venom that was so intense I sometimes cut the stream and cried. Tonight, your spokespeople on AAR have been calling people like me "snake-handling evangelicals," and that was about the kindest thing I heard. Um…y'all? I've lived in the South my entire life and have never met a single snake-handler. Your attitudes, language, and behavior toward people like me: reasonable, thinking Christians who are quite moderate politically and who are just as well-informed as you are (yes, I've read all the PNAC essays, too, and yes, they scare me, too) is reminiscent of nothing so much as an abusive ex-lover, a crazy and drunken stalker. "I'll make you love me, or you'll regret it, you worthless bitch! Come here and let me beat you over the head and tell you how stupid and worthless you are! Then you'll see it my way!"



Kerry supporters were also repeatedly warned about this. Yet now people are telling them I told you so, they are again refusing to believe it (mostly) and are only becoming more abusive. Way to loose the next election.

I don't know how thoughtful the post was anyway. Maybe it is the Democrats' fault for not making their case more clearly, but I get the feeling this person would have been confused and depressed no matter what was said. Half of the arguments just don't make sense.

"He said that we must finish the job, but he also said it was the wrong war at the wrong place and the wrong time. Huh?"

Why is that confusing?

"Kerry seemed to think that terrorism is like any other crime. The hijackers lived among us, ate at our restaurants, shopped in our malls, and wounded us worse than we have ever been wounded before."

She's probably in favour of letting the families of murder victims decide the murderer's punishment, too. A lot of her points are just kneejerk emotional reactions. It's ok to disagree with someone, but don't make out like it's because you're confused and the other person can't possibly be the horrible monster they must be if you understood them correctly.

"Your constant references to the opinions of the rest of the world scared me, and I'm not talking about the "global test" comment. I don't care what Europeans think about me or my country. I learned in high school that living my life with one eye on the opinions of everyone else leads only to unnecessary turmoil and pointless pain. Why didn't you?"

Maybe a lot of Iraqis didn't care what Americans thought of Saddam Hussein? Yeah, you thought Saddam Hussein was an evil dictator. A lot of the world thinks Bush is an oil hungry monster. Why are their opinions less valid?

"Bush voters are treasonous, Bush should be impeached, blah blah blah blah blah blah. It was old three months after Bush's inauguration, and it's now just tiresome."

Ok... so people were complaining about him so much that it made her vote for him? Who is the immature one now?

There are some good points in this thing, but it isn't that insightful.

My opinion probably doesn't matter though, because I don't live in the US. ;P

My opinion probably doesn't matter though, because I don't live in the US. ;P

That's the ONLY thing you got right.

It's not just the abuse of President Bush and Christian Americans by our own elitists that drove conservatives to the polls on November 2. It was the same thing by the Canadian and EUropean snobs. How can you expect to incessantly abuse and demean people, and then expect them to vote your way?

BOOM! That was a loud backfire!

She seems to say that she thinks it's terrible for Democrats to fight dirty in elections, but that it's OK for Republicans.

I'm amazed that she would still vote for Bush, after all he has actually done that is against her beliefs, than vote for Kerry because "Democrats are too mean."


If you had READ THE WHOLE THING, than you would have seen that the one of the many reasons she voted for Bush was, what you say "democrats being to mean." So just like the average liberal, you do exactly as she said, close your eyes, stick your fingers in your ears and say "Lalalalalalalalalala, everything will be alright." Mabyee you should realize, that we live in a world that is not perfect, and there are evil people put there, and if we do nothing about them, we are just as evil as they are. And if you want to say Bush is an evil person, go ahead, fight your fight, but there are 20,000 Iraqi civilians that would have been killed this year by Saddam if he had been in power that would disagree with you!

It's not just the abuse of President Bush and Christian Americans by our own elitists that drove conservatives to the polls on November 2. It was the same thing by the Canadian and EUropean snobs. How can you expect to incessantly abuse and demean people, and then expect them to vote your way?

Wow, my stupid, snobby opinion is so worthless and unpowerful that it caused millions of people to do the opposite. Maybe the world should have endorsed Bush so you would vote for someone else~~

Whether Democrats agree with her or not, this is a middle of the road voter saying why she didn't vote for Kerry. You can say 'Nuh-uh! Kerry was to clear!' but this is why she did not vote for him.

I wrote this in response before reading the first two lines of Friedmanville’s post, so forgive me that I write as if I’m talking directly to her.

Ok, I'm going to go through these all and give you some of my opinions as to why I think you oughta change your opinions on our party. But before I do, let me just tell you that John Kerry was not the best man to have chosen for president, I know that as do most others.



1. You say we were not clear on our issues, and your first example is kerry's position on Iraq. Well here it is: We don't want to be there, we shouldn't be there, but we have to be there, because once you topple a monarch-like government, the country will inevitably fall into anarchy, and if we are not there to ease the pain it will turn into a despotism but now it will hate us even more, and we'll be much worse off than we ever were before.

I have no personal opinion on why Kerry voted against the 87 billion, albeit most people claim that it is to show the president that he does not have the support of our nation. Afterall, if you don't have the money to continue the fighting, maybe it is not a good idea to be fighting, no?

You also say that it confuses you that if we had known what we do today, he would've done everything different, but that he would still have voted against the 87 billion dollars. I think you are reading this a little to literally my friend. First of all, if Kerry had done everything different, we wouldn't need to be spending 87 billion dollars on fixing Iraq in the first place, and second of all, these to issues have almost no relevance to eachother because one was referring to what Kerry said he would do if he had been the president and the other was explaining what he would've done since he had not been.

Finally you say that it confuses you that he said it was the wrong war, wrong place, wrong time, but that he still said we need to finish it. Well I would ask you right now, what alternative do you suggest? If we just left there without helping to bring the nation to peace, then it would do what I have mentioned above, fallen into anarchy and evolved into a despotism that would harbor terrorists. If we don't at least start making steps toward peace, we will be in the bloody turmoil forever. In fact this is one thing I've been fairly worked up about, it was the wrong war, wrong place wrong time. We were fighting against terrorists, not Iraq. But now that Bush has brought us into the war we HAVE NO CHOICE.

2. Kerry did not believe that. He said in multitudes of speeches and debates that he would catch, and KILL the terrorists. The only thing that he didn't agree on with Bush about terrorism was that Iraq harbored it. Iraq did not harbor terrorism, and had not for years. But otherwise, Kerry was in full agreement on the war on terrorism, as he said many times. However, I'd be glad to continues this discussion if you can come up with some more evidence of how he did this.

3. Your response to the whole Vietnam thing is, I hate to say, rediculous. Kerry only used his service in select examples where he said that he had become experienced and had benefited by it, saying it had helped his decision making skills and educated him as a leader. It was the Republican party and all of there nasty 527 ads that made this into a big deal. And for that matter, let me just clear this up now: Kerry also won a silver and bronze star in the Vietnam war, and if you ever had a piece of metal sharpnel stuck superficially into your arm, you would be crying for days on end. A purple star is rewardded whenever you are wounded in combat, and Kerry had not even mentioned those honors before the Republicans starting claiming that he didn't deserve them. And by the way, how does it insult your intelligence that we said that this man had served for our country? That, I'm sorry to say, doesn't make any sense, but if you'd elaborate it for me I'd be happy to talk more about it.

4. Your constant denial that we could win this war without the supporters of others made me scared. America alone does not have the money nor manpower to win the war in Iraq, and despite our coalition we could have been so much better prepared, and perhaps then we would not be facing the crisis and bloodshed over there. America may be the greatest country of the world, but that does not mean it has the power to do everything by itself. Friendship with others is a good thing. Kerry never explicitly claimed that we would not have gone to war if the world didn't like it. He was using it in conjunction to the fact that if he were president we probably would not have gone to war in the first place. He said several times in later debates that if a country actually did represent a threat to us, we would fight them no matter what the rest of the world said, but shaky intelligence and unlikely explanations were not enough to go to war on, especially if it alienated the rest of the world in the process. In high school you were taught that you should not try to conform to the opinions of others, and should be an individual. But that did not mean you should go out and kill one of the other less intelligent, less social kids in school against everyone's good advice not to.

5. Kerry did not demoralize the rich. Our party may have, our media may have, but Kerry never did. In fact, the only time he even talked about them was when he said that the rich were getting a tax cut that middle class people such as yourself needed more. However, now that the economy has been destroyed and the deficit is up you will not get that tax cut for a long time, certainly not while Bush is in power. That did not demoralize the rich in any way, it's not like he ever said that they were stealing this money or something stupid like that.

6. Free speech. And besides, just because you guys use nicer words such as "flip-flop" and "liar" doesn't mean they have any less of an effect. I honestly don't care what either party says in those kinds of things, if they have the right to protest then they can do what they want. Just because they say it doesn't mean I advocate it.

7. I will agree with you on this one. It was wrong of the liberal media and so many other sources to target, criticize, and label the religious groups as they had, especially being that our candidate was an evangelican and that their votes were the ones he needed. I am one man and I cannot change that. I may not be religious but I do believe that religion has taught our modern world most of the moral values it has learned to, and should be, following. All I can say, and I think I stand for many Democrats when I say this, is that I'm sorry. By god we hope it will not happen again.



And finally I have this advice for all Democrats: stop bitching about Bush, Kerry conceded and no matter what you do we cannot change the past. Now we must focus on the future. Get ready for the next election and prepare ourselves for the long hard road ahead, because I have no doubt that it will certainly be one. We need everyone's support and no one is worth forgetting about. Good bye all, and good luck.

Whether Democrats agree with her or not, this is a middle of the road voter saying why she didn't vote for Kerry. You can say 'Nuh-uh! Kerry was to clear!' but this is why she did not vote for him.
I can believe that the person who wrote this was honest about how she felt, but her perceptions of the Kerry campaign are out of touch with reality. The Kerry campaign shares some blame in that, but even more blame needs to go to the news media and more importantly, the "news analysts" (on both sides) who pull claims straight out of their asses and are never called on it, at least not in front of the audiences to whom they make their claims.

Here's an example--there are websites dedicated to debunking the many outrageous claims made by AM talk radio hosts. Great, right? These people are being corrected publicly. But the people who are listening to Limbaugh don't go to those sites. They take Limbaugh at face value, and because Limbaugh never comes out and say "hey, I was wrong about that claim," his audience never has any reason to question his credibility. Add in that Limbaugh so carefeully screens his calls and cuts off anyone who could prove him wrong, and you get a 10,000,000 person echo chamber. It's no wonder that Kerry couldn't get his message across--he was drowned out by a propaganda machine that's been 40 years in the making.

I can believe that the person who wrote this was honest about how she felt, but her perceptions of the Kerry campaign are out of touch with reality. The Kerry campaign shares some blame in that, but even more blame needs to go to the news media and more importantly, the "news analysts" (on both sides) who pull claims straight out of their asses and are never called on it, at least not in front of the audiences to whom they make their claims.

Here's an example--there are websites dedicated to debunking the many outrageous claims made by AM talk radio hosts. Great, right? These people are being corrected publicly. But the people who are listening to Limbaugh don't go to those sites. They take Limbaugh at face value, and because Limbaugh never comes out and say "hey, I was wrong about that claim," his audience never has any reason to question his credibility. Add in that Limbaugh so carefeully screens his calls and cuts off anyone who could prove him wrong, and you get a 10,000,000 person echo chamber. It's no wonder that Kerry couldn't get his message across--he was drowned out by a propaganda machine that's been 40 years in the making.

I think you're overestimating the power of Limbaugh, and the sway he had among the fence-sitters and undecideds. He preaches to a choir, and the rest just listen for entertainment. I am aware of places like FAIR (non-extactly a non partisan truth squad) and Spinsanity (much, much better).

1. You didn't give me clear positions on the issues. I followed the news closely all through the campaign, but I still don't understand Kerry's position on Iraq. I know he voted for the IWR, but then he voted against the $87 billion. To you, that seemed to be a symbolic stand against Saddam Hussein (the IWR) but also a principled stand against a President who was out of control (against the $87 billion). To me, that was just confusing. He said he would have done everything different, but he also said that, knowing what he knew today (the day he was asked) he still would have cast the same vote. He said that he would bring allies to our side to share the burden, but he also said he would be sending 40,000 more of our troops. He said that we must finish the job, but he also said it was the wrong war at the wrong place and the wrong time. Huh?

This is why blue state people think that red state people are just plain stupid. You act that way. Kerry made it perfectly clear why he voted against ONE of the two appropriations bills for the war. You don't seem to pay attention to the fact that Bush was against the other one. Why was Kerry voting against one and not the other confusing but Bush opposing one and supporting the other resolute? Because you don't have the brain power to understand a simple idea like "if you're going to have a war you ought to be able to pay for it." As for thinking that it's wrong to finish the job that the president started while thinking we shouldn't have started it in the first place, that's like saying that Michael Jackson, having dangled the baby off the balcony should just have let go when he realized that he shouldn't have held him out there in the first place. First you bring the baby back then you make it safe, but you shouldn't put it out there in the first place.

2. You didn't convince me that you would defend America against the threats of terrorism. Kerry seemed to think that terrorism is like any other crime. You catch the people responsible and put them in jail, and that's that. After seeing the destruction – physical, financial, psychological, and emotional -- wrought by the September 11th attacks, I do not understand how he could believe this. The hijackers lived among us, ate at our restaurants, shopped in our malls, and wounded us worse than we have ever been wounded before. How Kerry saw this as a crime, and not as a paradigm-shifting event that deserved a military response, both in direct retaliation and to keep it from ever happening again by going on the offensive, is something I don't understand.
Under Clinton's law enforcement paradigm everyone who perpetrated the first WTC bombing were captured and interogated leading us to find out about Osama bin Laden in the first place and we stopped several subsequent threats. Under Bush the perpetrater is still free and threatening us. If you really understood the facts you'd know that Bush, the cheerleader, can't defend us, Kerry, the war hero, could have.

3. You insulted my intelligence by the constant mantra of Kerry's service in Vietnam. Most of the men I know who are older than 50 served in some way, either in country or in the Coast Guard or other non-combat roles. I don't see the relevance, and the drumbeat of "three purple hearts" struck me as manipulation. It was as if you were saying, "These dumbshit hawks want war? We'll give 'em a real war hero! That'll get their votes!"
This is just incoherent. The republicans like to claim that they're the party of the military, it was a perfectly valid point to make that Bush knows nothing about what the military needs. Sure Dick Cheney can complain that Kerry voted against a few spending bills, but he leaves out that he himself was against all of them when he was secretary of defense.

4. Your constant references to the opinions of the rest of the world scared me, and I'm not talking about the "global test" comment. I don't care what Europeans think about me or my country. I learned in high school that living my life with one eye on the opinions of everyone else leads only to unnecessary turmoil and pointless pain. Why didn't you?
Lessons you learned in high school are completly irrelevant. This is the insult to your intelligence. If you think that being snubbed at the high school dance is the same as rejecting the input of the nations of the world you're an idiot and should turn in your voter registration. Kerry knows how to bring in allies to assist in our global efforts, Bush placed a military general as the head of diplomacy and a chemicals salesman as the head of our military. You think Bush is the debudante who holds her head high after being insulted, he's the beligerent bully who yells "fuck all y'all I'll do whatever the fuck I want," after throwing a brick through the window.

5. You disturbed me with your demonization of the rich. Rich people were talked about in this campaign as though they were all evil cheaters who had wage slaves tied up in the basement to be flogged for minimum wage, and what they didn't earn from the wage slaves' labor, they stole from nursing home residents. I am not rich, but I work hard, am learning about investing money, am continuing to improve my prospects for earning more money in the future, and fully expect to end up at least well-off someday. If I do, it will be because of my efforts and work, not because of winning "life's lottery." I know two millionaires personally. Both are entrepreneurs who took big risks and worked their backsides off for years to get where they are. Given that Kerry is married to a billionaire, this seemed especially hypocritical.
Hypocritical? What about all of that "liberal elite intellectuals" crap? Not only demonizing liberals for being rich (which we aren't), but for being intelligent, which appearantly we are, we voted against Bush.

6. Here is something you could work on right about now: I could not stomach to listen to your incessant hatred of President Bush. Bush is stupid, Bush is an idiot, Bush is Hitler, Bush is a Nazi, Bush masturbates to photos of dead Iraqi babies, I'd vote for my dog before I'd vote for Bush, I'd vote for Castro before I'd vote for Bush, the Rethuglicans are fascists, Bush voters are treasonous, Bush should be impeached, blah blah blah blah blah blah. It was old three months after Bush's inauguration, and it's now just tiresome. I don't hate my President, even though I voted for him with more reluctance than I can express and a queasy feeling in my stomach. Language like this makes you seem immature, needlessly vulgar, and obnoxious.
That's an intelligent voting strategy. "I think Bush is terrible, but I don't think he's quite as terrible as those who think he's more terrible than I do, so I'd better stick up for him."
Furthermore, the conservative pundits were the ones who aired the ad comparing Kerry to Hitler, not vice versa.
The fact that you think those who voted against him engaged in hyperbole does nothing to explain why you vote for him despite him making you sick.

7. Lastly, and I hope this doesn't hurt anyone feelings, because my objective is to make you think, not emote: I don't think you really want my vote. I actively sought out your perspective. I tuned in regularly, for months, to your biggest media project, your serious effort to get your message out: Air America Radio. I listened all day on Good Friday as host after host mocked people like me for believing in Jesus's life, death, and resurrection. I listened as Janeane Garofalo, who was one of my favorite comedians for years, expressed hatred and disgust for Bush voters so vile that I ended my live stream feeling assaulted, as if I'd been vomited on. I listened the night that Mike Malloy told a young Republican to hang up the phone and go open a vein. I listened to pure, unadulterated venom that was so intense I sometimes cut the stream and cried. Tonight, your spokespeople on AAR have been calling people like me "snake-handling evangelicals," and that was about the kindest thing I heard. Um…y'all? I've lived in the South my entire life and have never met a single snake-handler. Your attitudes, language, and behavior toward people like me: reasonable, thinking Christians who are quite moderate politically and who are just as well-informed as you are (yes, I've read all the PNAC essays, too, and yes, they scare me, too) is reminiscent of nothing so much as an abusive ex-lover, a crazy and drunken stalker. "I'll make you love me, or you'll regret it, you worthless bitch! Come here and let me beat you over the head and tell you how stupid and worthless you are! Then you'll see it my way!"
This is just insane. You say you're trying to make us think and then you go and tell us that to disagree with you is to emote "venom." No one on Air America spoke as you complain that they do. Whenever they complain about fundamentalism they're always quick to say "we're not talking about all christians..." Jenneane Garofalo goes so far as to say that "we're not talking about real republicans, we're talking about these neo-cons, the bannana republicans." If you ever listened to Air America, which I doubt you'd see that if you're the politicly moderate Christian you claim to be they did not utter a single word against you, except possibly when she said to the world at large "if you're an undecided at this point you can kiss my fat ass" but you're own pundits have said as much, so that's not so strong an indictment of the left.


I tried so hard to give you guys a chance. I'm young, I'm not extremely religious, and I'm supportive of liberal ideals like fighting for higher wages, stopping outsourcing of jobs, and standing up for the little guy. I wanted to vote Democratic this time, more than I can possibly put into words. You just didn't give me the option.
Yes, you plugged your ears, screamed at the top of your emotional lungs and some amount of the truth slipped by, but in the end your conservative brainwashing was just too much for us to get through. Every point you presented was absurd.

President Bush won on values, yes, but not hatred of gays or any other stereotype you have in your head about Bush voters like me.

He won because he has values, clearly defined values, and even though I agree with little of what he believes, at least I know what he believes. At least I know that he really does believe in something. At least I know that he will do what he says he will do.

That's disgustingly little, but unbelievably – you offered me less.
Hmmm, abortions have gone up since he got into office, he got the billions he complained Kerry didn't vote for but still sent the troops into battle unequipped, he abandoned the search for Osama bin Laden (and did indeed say that Osama wasn't important), Bush does nothing he says he will do except give more money to his friends. If all Bush does is what he says he will do that is reason enough to vote for him. If you think that being resolutly wrong is more important than being right but in a way you don't understand then you have no one to blame but yourself when the rest of us can't respect your intelligence.

If you can vote for Bush, you either have no idea what he believes (which is likely, all the research says that Bush supporters don't understand what Bush or Kerry favor, that's what they're talking about when they say Cognitive Dissonance.

So, if you want my vote next time, and the vote of all my close friends, and the millions more like us that you refuse to believe exists, it's pretty simple: take positions and don't waffle on them. Stand up for America, especially with regard to terrorism. Shut up about what Germany and France think. Stop pretending that the only way to become wealthy in America is to cheat, for the sake of those of us who still want to get there. Treat the President with at least as much civility, if not respect, as you would've wanted right-wingers to give a President Kerry. Most importantly, please, please please, please, please, please stop abusing me. No more verbal and psychological and emotional savagery. Treat me like a voter whose vote you would actually appreciate getting, and you will get it.

Do you maybe, just maybe, see where I'm coming from?

I doubt it. But I had to try.


Sincerely,


A Very Sad American
You're claiming that you willingly sold out this countries future on hurt feelings and a desire to believe that being foolishly resolute is more important than doing something right. You are devoted to a notion of patriotism that says that it's wrong to think that we should consider opinions besides our own when we try to go and kill thousands of people in foreign lands. The left has been nothing but respectful to all but the administration itself and you cry "abuse and savagry." It is not savagery to be told that you're wrong, and most bush supporters are demonstrably wrong on simple facts. If you don't know the facts, you don't know the issues.

You claim you didn't want to vote for Bush. This is a lie. You wanted desperatly to vote for Bush, but you know that it would be wrong. So you drum up this emotional plea to defend the actions that you know are wrong. Your anguish comes not from our non-existent abuse, but from your own guilt at having supported a man you know to be a monster.

I think you're overestimating the power of Limbaugh, and the sway he had among the fence-sitters and undecideds. He preaches to a choir, and the rest just listen for entertainment. I am aware of places like FAIR (non-extactly a non partisan truth squad) and Spinsanity (much, much better).Well, I used Limbaugh as an example because he's the biggest, but if you lump in the combined audience of Limbaugh, Savage, Hannity, O'Reilly, Liddy, etc. and then factor in the internet versions like Drudge, your audience is exponentially larger (and louder). Then consider that they drive news coverage--if Limbaugh and his wannabees pick up a story and the tv networks don't pick it up, they scream liberal bias, even if the story if full-on crap (like the Swift Vets story). Let's say that Fox News picks it up, then CNN and MSNBC feel duty bound to at least report on it, even if it's a nothing story. From there it moves to the networks and the newspapers and weeklies, and their audience comprises a large number of the fence-sitters and undecideds.

And how many of those fence-sitters do you think realize that at least some of the stories they see on the nightly news are driven this way and will go to the internet to check the veracity of the stories? Not many--they're undecided in part because they're too tired to put in the effort to find out what candidates stand for. They're more interested in drinking a beer and watching Everybody Loves Raymond.

P.S. That last remark isn't a slap--it's a comment on a study from last summer that showed undecided voters were more likely to watch Everybody Loves Raymond than any other network show.

Everybody Loves Raymond?

That is interesting. I must admit, I can't stand the show. How many times can someone watch him act like a dufus to his wife?

My preferences are Malcolm, 70s show and the OLD man show (With Jimmy Kimmel) and personally, I am sick of the worn out police dramas and reality shows.

Why do people from the South and the Midwest worry so much about terrorist attacks?

3. You insulted my intelligence by the constant mantra of Kerry's service in Vietnam. Most of the men I know who are older than 50 served in some way, either in country or in the Coast Guard or other non-combat roles. I don't see the relevance, and the drumbeat of "three purple hearts" struck me as manipulation. It was as if you were saying, "These dumbshit hawks want war? We'll give 'em a real war hero! That'll get their votes!"


And Bush made speeches on the ashes of the WTC.

You choose to see manipulation where you CHOOSE to see manipulation.

Personally, I'd have overlooked all of Kerry's perceived flaws, to stop someone who OWNS businesses with bin Ladens family from getting into the white house AGAIN.

I'd have overlooked Edward's youth and inexperience to evict a man who backs a war that has made rich the company he has ties to (Haliburton).

And I would have overlooked all of the Democrat's perceived flaws to stop a party that claimed a mandate, based on a narrow EV victory, when they didn't even acheive the popular vote.

And guess what, they've claimed a mandate again.

Everybody Loves Raymond?

That is interesting. I must admit, I can't stand the show. How many times can someone watch him act like a dufus to his wife?

My preferences are Malcolm, 70s show and the OLD man show (With Jimmy Kimmel) and personally, I am sick of the worn out police dramas and reality shows.
I can't stand it either--maybe that's why the undecided voters liked it. You and me, we were both decided early on.

I was a fan of the old Man Show with Carolla and Kimmel as well, and I'm crazy for The Family Guy. I've never watched reality shows--never saw the point--and I'm pretty tired of police dramas as well. I've been watching Desperate Housewives and I like it so far--I've got a thing for Teri Hatcher--but it's smart and interesting as well.

PS--you want to go ahead and take care of the wager now?

I wish i could respond to you more affirmatively of Mr. Kerry. I am not Republican or Democrat, just another middle- of- the- road, disappointed American.
I would like to think that if there was a party of moderate Republicans and democrats and other unaffiliated people it would have drawn most of the votes.
I personally shun the views expressed by venom spewers on both sides. Air America is no more credible to me than Rush Limbaugh and his ilk. I believe, and pray i am correct in doing so, that CNN or NPR gives a more indepth and balanced reporting and analysis of the issues without the negativity spewed in other parts of the sensationalist media. No, you don't win people over to your point of view by calling them stupid. it only gets their backs up.
Also, since you obviously have a computer, factcheck.org is helpful in sorting out the "exaggerations" made by both sides.

In defense of Kerry, I know he voted to give the president the Authority to use force....as a last resort. He voted against the bill to fund the war because he wanted a roll back of the tax cuts on the wealthy to help fund it. This country had never before gone to war AND cut taxes. Frankly, to me, it is rather foolish to do so.
Yes, Kerry called it the wrong war......but he couldn't very well go back in time and undo the war to show how he would have handled it differently. And it does seem to me that in order to establish security in iraq, more troops will be needed, if only to give Rn'R to the troops that are being held there beyond their tours.

I didn't vote for Bush in 2000. then it was just a gut reaction thing. I didn't get the thing about him being a guy I want to sit down and have a beer with. Somehow, that little smirk of a smile he has, says to me, "are you buying this stuff I'm saying?" he makes me very uncomfortable.

I also disagreed with the tax cuts in the first place. The national debt bothers me. Interest on that debt eats up 11-12% of the federal budget, money that cannot be used for anything else to improve our country. we were in a position to bring that debt down while interest rates were low.


In my mind the invasion of Iraq was simply wrong. The morning of 9/11 I had burning dibris falling around me on Barclay St., a block north of the Trade Center. I am thankful to be here. I profoundly desire bin laden and his cohorts to be brought to justice. Bush had my support at that time for that mission. He lost me when he went to Iraq. I just could not reconcile my belief in the ideals of America with invading another country unprovoked. It was also not job 1- bringing al qaeda to justice. Hussein being contained by no fly zones wasn't much of a threat. It also sounds hypocritical to me when people say he was a brutal dictator to justify the invasion. WE helped strengthen him. I had not heard too many people concerned with this fact, say in 1998. also, there are more countries that abuse their citizens than our resources can invade. I don't hear much of an outcry about them either.
The head of the UN weapons inspectors was also finally getting cooperation from hussein and objected to being pulled out before the inspectioins were complete. this also gave me cause to doubt Bush's reasons for invasion. to me it just didn't add up and still doesn't. and still causes me to distrust Bush.
While I won't resort to calling people names, i do not understand how they stand up and say "i know what he stands for" and not find what he has done objectionable.

I do not understand how people see an energy policy summit, composed mostly of oil executives, as benefitting anything but the oil industry. or helping us become less dependent on foriegn oil. have we seen or heard of any plans to set up Wind mills and solar power?
There are plans to re-open long shut down coal burning power plants without requiring them to update their pollution control equipment. something that is rather scary to me since the prevailing winds will bring all that soot my way.
Bush has also hired a majority of industry lobbyist and lawyers to man the department of the interior and EPA. Do you think they will care a lot about our land , air and water? thay have already rolled back regulations to make the environment cleaner. Regulations don't have to be voted on anywhere outside the exectutive branch so they don't get much publicity. I actually almost spit up my dinner when Bush said the air was cleaner since he took office. The other time was when he asked Kerry how he was going to pay for his own plans. i found that one most ironic since Bush didn't seem to worry about paying for anything he's done since being in office.

To me the record spoke for itself. there was no way, in good conscience, i could justify a vote for bush being the best thing for america. And if i think that the moral issues meant no more to Bush than the support of the religious right of the party, call me cynical if you believe so, it's just what my gut tells me. I admit, Kerry didn’t have to prove to me he was the better fit to my ideal of America. Bush had already proved to me he wasn’t.

It's not just the abuse of President Bush and Christian Americans by our own elitists that drove conservatives to the polls on November 2. It was the same thing by the Canadian and EUropean snobs. How can you expect to incessantly abuse and demean people, and then expect them to vote your way?

BOOM! That was a loud backfire!
I'm just about sick and tired of being called an elitist, just because I'm European and just because my views aren't in line with the US Republican party.

Republicans always argue that the invasion of Iraq was best for the Iraqi people. So now you know what's best for them? Does this not sound elitist to you?

Do you maybe, just maybe, see where I'm coming from?

I doubt it. But I had to try.


Sincerely,


A Very Sad American
This thing is so direct at people, at the end i felt like saying "OK I'll try harder next time" christ. Have a tissu.e

I'll add something to the animosity points of the article.

I have attended a rally where John Kerry spoke and a rally where George Bush spoke.

At the Kerry rally I had obtained a spot very close to the front with the aid of my RA. I basically had tickets I shouldn't have had. As I was in this group of die-hard Dems I heard more venom than I can remember hearing at any point in my life.

I overheard a conversation where a group of people were talking about how they saw "Jackbooted thugs in the streets of Columbus." And how the real reason they were pulled over for speeding was their Kerry bumper stickers. I heard them talking about how if Bush was elected there'd be a draft, and Congress would be disbanded.

I heard them talking about how they theought everyone should believe their point of view, and if they didn't then they should just not be allowed to vote.
They complained that moderates made campaigning more difficult (that comment sure won me over).

They said anyone who voted Bush was a dumbass redneck who didn't deserve the right to vote.

They talked about how the rich were setting up an oligarchy to disband unions, abolish upper level income taxes and make children work in sweatshops if Bush was elected.

The vitriol directed towards Republican voters and the President disgusted me. I heard very little about why Kerry was good, just why Bush was raw evil.


Compare this to the Bush rally I attended (which I also "improved" my seat at).

I heard people talking about economic resurgence under Bush, I heard people talk about how we'd win the war on terror, I heard people talk about a brighter tomorrow, the attitude wasn't angry, I never heard anyone call Kerry a fascist or anything. I heard the flip-flop joke, but that is much more lighthearted than what was occuring at the kerry rally.

I was alienated by the Kerry supporters, whilst I was taken in by Bush supporters. That's basically what was important to my vote.

I see alot of shock at the amount of hate directed at Bush.. But I cant understand the suprise. We hate him for:
-Lying
-Stealing the 2000 election
-Using fear as a control tactic
-His bigotry against gays
-His major backing is a group of lunatic fundies

And these last two posts show exactly what the blogger was talking about. "Idiots" , "Bush stole the election","fascist", "lunatic", etc.

I heard people talk about a brighter tomorrow, the attitude wasn't angry, I never heard anyone call Kerry a fascist or anything.

Yes, well perhaps that is because Kerry had never acted like a facist, while Bush on the other hand...well, you know the story. And maybe the reason that at the Bush rally they didn't try to convince you that their points of view were right was because you had already signed an oath of loyalty to vote for them. That whole fucking party is practically comunistic in the ways they handle their elections. Oh whoops, I said fuck, afterall the moment profanity is uttered my entire party is immediately uncivilized and immoral, unlike invading a country pointlessly and bringing both of us into an uneeded and completely unfounded bloodbath. Idiots.

[edit]

Why do you people care so much about what we call you? Why do you think the other party should win just because they don't use as explicitly extreme labels? We say those things because that is how much this country means to us: if we think that you've ruined our country, of course we're going to start speaking out with angry language. If the war for this country has become a war over what kind of words we use rather than how we stand on the issues then this country has seriously taken a turn for the worse. We can thorw around labels all night long, but it was Bush who took us into a war we didn't want, Bush who fucked that war up and refused to admit it, Bush who fought with no allies, Bush who ruined the economy, Bush who made the huge surplus a huge deficit, and Bush who has told you that this is all meaningless because we call you bad words. Those don't sound like the kind of ethics I would be fighting for, how about you? I mean, what do you think, that we don't have moral values just because we talked more about the issues facing America? Moral values are the one thing that have never been in jeopardy in this country, and now they have become such a big problem why? Bad language? Gay sex? Because Kerry did not talk enough about them in his campaign? Honestly, name me one moral value that the Democrats actually threatened and I'll give you one perfectly good reason as to why they did not.

And how many of those fence-sitters do you think realize that at least some of the stories they see on the nightly news are driven this way and will go to the internet to check the veracity of the stories? Not many--they're undecided in part because they're too tired to put in the effort to find out what candidates stand for. They're more interested in drinking a beer and watching [i]Everybody Loves Raymond.

You know what? I didn't make up my mind until I was in line. Everyday I watch the news and read Spinsanity, Andrew Sullivan, Daily KOS, Crooked Timbers, Instapundit, Reason, et al. I was far from ignorant about the issues. I couldn't decide because: I cannot tolerate the social engineering of the left or right wings, I'm not a fan of the welfare state, I'm not a fan of tax cuts without spending cuts, personally I think both Bush and Kerry are decent people at heart, I cannot stand people like Michael Moore who is an intellectual lightweight (yes, yes, the right has Ann Coulter...when was the last time she was on Leno spewing her venom? Letterman? Did she sit next to George HW Bush at the GOP convention like Moore sat next to Carter?), I cannot stand the loonies that insist evolution be taken out of school curriculum, I cannot stand the retards equating Bush to Hitler, thus minimizing true atrocities, I cannot stand the people who look up to Castro, I think stem cell research is a moral good, but I don't think a woman's decision to abort a pregnancy is an unrestricted freedom, I think gays at the very least should be able to have a civil union, and I think some left-of-center are far too quick to piss on religious beliefs....I could go on, but you get the picture.

To put it bluntly, my beliefs could not be pigeon-holed enough so I could actually support either candidate. No matter who I was voting for, I was actually voting against the agenda of the other side. So, truly, a lesser of two evils for me.

This is why blue state people think that red state people are just plain stupid. You act that way. Kerry made it perfectly clear why he voted against ONE of the two appropriations bills for the war. You don't seem to pay attention to the fact that Bush was against the other one. Why was Kerry voting against one and not the other confusing but Bush opposing one and supporting the other resolute? Because you don't have the brain power to understand a simple idea like "if you're going to have a war you ought to be able to pay for it." As for thinking that it's wrong to finish the job that the president started while thinking we shouldn't have started it in the first place, that's like saying that Michael Jackson, having dangled the baby off the balcony should just have let go when he realized that he shouldn't have held him out there in the first place. First you bring the baby back then you make it safe, but you shouldn't put it out there in the first place.

Hmmm....what point was she making again?

Oh I remember....

The left has been nothing but respectful to all but the administration itself and you cry "abuse and savagry." It is not savagery to be told that you're wrong, and most bush supporters are demonstrably wrong on simple facts. If you don't know the facts, you don't know the issues.

but

This is why blue state people think that red state people are just plain stupid. You act that way.

let me finish ...because you don't think the way I do.

because....Not only demonizing liberals for being rich (which we aren't), but for being intelligent, which appearantly we are, we voted against Bush.

If you didn't vote for Kerry...you must be functionally illiterate or mentally impaired. But not only are you stupid...

You claim you didn't want to vote for Bush. This is a lie.

...you're a liar, because well....you point out some things that were obvious to some people not drinking the Kool-Aid.

That's an intelligent voting strategy. "I think Bush is terrible, but I don't think he's quite as terrible as those who think he's more terrible than I do, so I'd better stick up for him."

...not only are you stupid, but you vote on the lesser of two evils, and you even !shriek! make a judgement about a candidate by who he associates with and by who supports him!!!! SHAME ON YOU for your obvious intellectual inferiority!!!

*Kicks Friedmanville for being needlessly sarcastic.*

You know what? You can twist Domici's words as much as you want and pair two pieces of his post that have absolutely nothing to do with eachother and criticize their contradictions, but his point was made. And for every time you do this you get a little closer to being what the Democrats hate in Bush so much. A little closer to dividing this nation.

I was alienated by the Kerry supporters, whilst I was taken in by Bush supporters. That's basically what was important to my vote.


Well, at Bush rallies, they make you swear an oath and they make sure you are a staunch Repulbican, remove an "offensive" displays. In contrast, its free-for-all in Kerry rallies.

I'm starting to find that most Bush supporters I talk to are very nasty individuals.

Or maybe I am on the dark road to becoming a hopeless partisan hack. :(

1. You didn't give me clear positions on the issues.


Maybe you should have paid closer attention. Most of us understood.

2. You didn't convince me that you would defend America against the threats of terrorism. Kerry seemed to think that terrorism is like any other crime. You catch the people responsible and put them in jail, and that's that.


What would you have done? Beheaded them on national television? Gave them a testicle bolo and paraded their corpses through the streets? How about a little thing we like to call "No cruel or unusual punishment"? I know the Constitution really sticks in ya'lls craw, but it's there whether you like it or not.

3. You insulted my intelligence by the constant mantra of Kerry's service in Vietnam.

You'll find that Kerry very rarely mentioned his service. It was a lot of other people talking about it, mostly 527 groups.


4. Your constant references to the opinions of the rest of the world scared me, and I'm not talking about the "global test" comment. I don't care what Europeans think about me or my country.


Sometimes it is essential to consider the thoughts of others. Perhaps you think it would be ok to drop trou and take a dump in the middle of the grocery store. How you act is a reflection of you. Actions will always speak louder than words. Polite consideration is, believe it or not, a good thing.

5. You disturbed me with your demonization of the rich.

Welcome to the world. The rich have always been demonized. It didn't start with us.

6. Here is something you could work on right about now: I could not stomach to listen to your incessant hatred of President Bush.

Well ... if the shoe fits ....

7. Lastly, and I hope this doesn't hurt anyone feelings, because my objective is to make you think, not emote: I don't think you really want my vote. I actively sought out your perspective. I tuned in regularly, for months, to your biggest media project, your serious effort to get your message out: Air America Radio.

Again ... Perhaps you should have payed closer attention.

I'm starting to find that most Bush supporters I talk to are very nasty individuals.

Or maybe I am on the dark road to becoming a hopeless partisan hack. :(


No worries ... it's warm and sunny here and the drinks are always free. There is safety and a gentle kneading of the buttocks.

The best advice I can give Democrats is to abandon the arrogant stance that anyone who disagrees with them, even slightly, is an ignorant hick. Until they do so, I don't think they will win another Presidential election.

Thank you Friedmanville for your original post. You're gonna take a lot of grief from liberals who call you stupid, ignorant, confused, etc. (the typical liberal shit that cost them the election). You tried to explain the position of the middle and why the middle voted to the right instead of the left. I understand, I was there. To the left, bottom line, you confused and scared the middle. We don't all like Bush, but we like less being told we're stupid, theocratic hicks - we don't like being told our values are stupid, that our religion is one of bigotry and hatred, that it is up to the courts, and not our votes, as to what social policy should be - treat us with respect, acknowledge our values, don't try to ram you belief in what America should be down our throat. America should be what its PEOPLE want it to be, not what liberal idealoges think it should be.

treat us with respect, acknowledge our values, don't try to ram you belief in what America should be down our throat.

Likewise, I'm sure.

Likewise, I'm sure.

From me, yes you can be sure. I'll tell you think you're wrong, but I won't try to tell you that you're a stupid hick because you disagree with me. Sadly, most liberals seem to say that to me when I disagree with them.

God this whole thread just made me want to cry. It made me incredibly sad to realise just how well the propaganda machine of the Bush administration works. Even when intelligent people who have been innundated with false facts and demonizing allegations against liberal america and/or Kerry actively look for a clarifying or refuting source in the mainstream media, it is a difficult process.

The truth is Kerry just couldn't get his message out over his own tendency to obfuscate by overexplaining things and the sheer volume of Bush propaganda. The mainstream media (the supposedly liberal mainstream media at that) just wouldn't pick up the story.

I think that both sides unneccesarily demonize each other. They pounce on unflattering stereotypes and expand the generalizations already being made. A lot of liberals are assholes, but then a lot of people are assholes. A lot of conservatives are assholes, but right now liberals are a lot more resentful of their currently unrepresented status, and are a lot more motivated to spew vicious vitriol. I can't apologize for them, but then I can't apologize for people like Ann Coulter either. They can only apologize for themselves, and what with them being assholes and all, it's unlikely. :(

God this whole thread just made me want to cry. It made me incredibly sad to realise just how well the propaganda machine of the Bush administration works. Even when intelligent people who have been innundated with false facts and demonizing allegations against liberal america and/or Kerry actively look for a clarifying or refuting source in the mainstream media, it is a difficult process.

The truth is Kerry just couldn't get his message out over his own tendency to obfuscate by overexplaining things and the sheer volume of Bush propaganda. The mainstream media (the supposedly liberal mainstream media at that) just wouldn't pick up the story.

I think that both sides unneccesarily demonize each other. They pounce on unflattering stereotypes and expand the generalizations already being made. A lot of liberals are assholes, but then a lot of people are assholes. A lot of conservatives are assholes, but right now liberals are a lot more resentful of their currently unrepresented status, and are a lot more motivated to spew vicious vitriol. I can't apologize for them, but then I can't apologize for people like Ann Coulter either. They can only apologize for themselves, and what with them being assholes and all, it's unlikely. :(

Yeah... I have to agree.

From this thread - it didn't come down to issues. It didn't come down to who was right and who was wrong. It came down to the fact that Bush supporters were nice and Kerry supporters were f'ing angry.

Both sides confirmed the stereotypes. The left, by the rhetoric of their supporters, alienated the middle, and lost the election; the middle and the right, by voting according to those emotions, furthered the stereotypic image that the liberals have of them.

Dear god what has the US come to...

It's come down to which campaign has better propaganda and better public image, unfortunately. Who can lie to the people more convincingly. : (

dp

Why do people from the South and the Midwest worry so much about terrorist attacks?


LOL, as simple as this sounds it's true.

Did the Planes on 9/11 crash into a Wyoming buttress (rock formation to those less educated) or the Rocky Mountains???

No I don't think so. They crashed into New York City and Washington DC and yes yes a Pennsylvanian field. All of which voted democrat, two of which are PURE HEARTLAND DEMOCRAT. If the TRUE targets of terrorism are able to bring themselves to vote Democrat and entrust Kerry with anti terrorism, why is it so hard for everyone else too???

The answer to this is pure ignorance and stupidity. They think Bush controls anti terrorism. pfft no. The government agencies do, and contrary to belief they dont sack everyone and hire republican or democrat only agents, the same people would continue to serve you.

So as simple as the message was, it is purely true. Bush one terrorism as an issue through scare mongering which worked only on people who do not truly understand the concept of terrorism.

LOL, as simple as this sounds it's true.

Did the Planes on 9/11 crash into a Wyoming buttress (rock formation to those less educated) or the Rocky Mountains???

No I don't think so. They crashed into New York City and Washington DC and yes yes a Pennsylvanian field. All of which voted democrat, two of which are PURE HEARTLAND DEMOCRAT. If the TRUE targets of terrorism are able to bring themselves to vote Democrat and entrust Kerry with anti terrorism, why is it so hard for everyone else too???

The answer to this is pure ignorance and stupidity. They think Bush controls anti terrorism. pfft no. The government agencies do, and contrary to belief they dont sack everyone and hire republican or democrat only agents, the same people would continue to serve you.

So as simple as the message was, it is purely true. Bush one terrorism as an issue through scare mongering which worked only on people who do not truly understand the concept of terrorism.
See post number 37 to understand why so many feel disenfrachised with the American left.

.... I don't care what Europeans think about me or my country.
.....
A Very Sad American
Why...why are you so sad?

You should be happy...You dont care about the rest of the World...and you...You elected a Prez that is in your own image. Congrats.

You got the President you deserve.

like i said...They got the President they deserve.
Like I've said in this thread and in others, if the American left treated the 2/3s of the country that doesn't live in the norheast or the southwest with any dignity they could have easily won.

See post number 37 to understand why so many feel disenfrachised with the American left.

Like i said...they elected someone in theyre own image....
they got the President they deserve.

America's new Image is "George Bush"

Congrats....

Like I've said in this thread and in others, if the American left treated the 2/3s of the country that doesn't live in the norheast or the southwest with any dignity they could have easily won.Well you showed them...that is going to teach them...Good for them etc.

Well you showed them...that is going to teach them...Good for them etc.
Hopefully it will teach them! They can't go on with tier arrogant attitude and compete in any national office. A painful lesson maybe, but one that was long overdue. As far as the opinion of the rest of the world is concerned, I don't think it is a large concern for many American voters, nor should it be.

...As far as the opinion of the rest of the world is concerned, I don't think it is a large concern for many American voters, nor should it be.

I say you should keep electing Gorge Bush Clones....I mean why should we give a fuck about the World....Well just Nuke them if they complain too much...we can always send some Charity to feel good about ourselves...

I say you should keep electing Gorge Bush Clones....
OK. We might. But, let me ask a question of you, will you? How much do you consider my opinion in your elections?

OK. We might. But, let me ask a question of you, will you? How much do you consider my opinion in your elections?Well so far the basis of your opinion on MY :) elections are based on Punishing the NE and the SW....

I not sure why you want to punish them...but it is your rigth to waste your vote whatever way you want.

Hopefully it will teach them! They can't go on with tier arrogant attitude and compete in any national office. A painful lesson maybe, but one that was long overdue. As far as the opinion of the rest of the world is concerned, I don't think it is a large concern for many American voters, nor should it be.

But how is this any different from the endless recitation of "liberal elites" by Republican supporters? How is it different from the smug description of the center of the country as the "authentic America"? (Are Californians somehow inauthentic?)

If anyone responds that liberals really are all wealthy Chardonnay-drinking brie-eating Hollywood types, I'll just start screaming now.

There's always a certain amount of silliness and venom in political campaigns, and it's easier to notice if you're on the receiving end. That said, I would have to point out that none of this came from our actual candidate, or from his campaign.

That said, I should point out that there are possibly more important issues facing the country than who is being more disrespectful to whom. Regardless of what one thinks of the various wars we're fighting, is it really sensible to fight them entirely on borrowed money? Particularly money borrowed from foreign powers? Doesn't this give them precisely the veto over our actions that both sides were so (rightly) dismissive of in the campaign?

Does it really make sense to turn Social Security into a sort of government-sponsored 401K? Wasn't the purpose of Social Security originally to ensure that senior citizens wouldn't face ruination even in the event of a stock market crash? If the stock market were to crash again in the future, would we need to reinstate the original Social Security, for even more money? If current wage-earners are putting their money into savings accounts, how do we pay benefits for current retirees? A benefit cut, a tax increase, or even more borrowing?

*Kicks Friedmanville for being needlessly sarcastic.*

You know what? You can twist Domici's words as much as you want and pair two pieces of his post that have absolutely nothing to do with eachother and criticize their contradictions, but his point was made. And for every time you do this you get a little closer to being what the Democrats hate in Bush so much. A little closer to dividing this nation.

Sorry Dewat, sometimes it's necessary to be sarcastic...and unfortunately this was one of those times...Not that all of Domici's points were bad, but the overall gist is that if you didn't think Kerry's message was clear....well you're stupid. Some of those comments fall on their own merit, such as ...but for being intelligent, which appearantly we are, we voted against Bush. I think it's fine to vote against Bush and for Kerry...hell, I almost did. But that's no indication of your intellectual firepower. Or how about: "That's an intelligent voting strategy. "I think Bush is terrible, but I don't think he's quite as terrible as those who think he's more terrible than I do, so I'd better stick up for him." In judging people, one criteria in the ruberic is usually who they allow themselves to be associated with. When politicians do not distance themselves from their more outlandish supporters, they allow themselves to be associated with them. Michael Moore sat next to Jimmy Carter at the DNC convention, where did Ann Coulter sit? Not in the presidential box. But of course, according to Domici, we're not just wrong but we're stupid to judge based on the company kept and the company legitimized.

Hopefully it will teach them! They can't go on with tier arrogant attitude and compete in any national office. A painful lesson maybe, but one that was long overdue. As far as the opinion of the rest of the world is concerned, I don't think it is a large concern for many American voters, nor should it be.

What about the arrogance of the right being "mainstream" and the left being out of touch? This election was very close to a 50-50 split, I don't think you can continue with your claim that only 1/3 of the country is liberal. How is liberal vitrol any different than the constant demonizing that the left has recieved for the past 4 years about being "un-American" for disagreeing with Bush administration policy? I think it's highly hypocritical for you to be on the left for being arrogant when the right displays an equal amount of arrogance.

What about the arrogance of the right being "mainstream" and the left being out of touch? This election was very close to a 50-50 split, I don't think you can continue with your claim that only 1/3 of the country is liberal. How is liberal vitrol any different than the constant demonizing that the left has recieved for the past 4 years about being "un-American" for disagreeing with Bush administration policy? I think it's highly hypocritical for you to be on the left for being arrogant when the right displays an equal amount of arrogance.

I think that was completely asinine of the Bush administation to call people unAmerican simply for disagreeing with questionable policies. In my opinion, if 1/3 of America is liberal, 1/3 is conservative. But personally, I think I would rather be slandered as an "elite intellectual" or a "limo liberal" than a "spitoon using, backwoods redneck, bible thumping hillbilly". I don't think either are correct of liberals or conservatives at large, but the latter seems to carry a little more vitriol. I don't think the election results are a vindication of conservatism at large, even if 11 states voted for banning gay marriage (many polls in those states indicate that a clear majority would allow at the least gay unions), or even if 20% said moral values (whatever that ambiguous term means) was their primary issue.

I think that was completely asinine of the Bush administation to call people unAmerican simply for disagreeing with questionable policies. In my opinion, if 1/3 of America is liberal, 1/3 is conservative. But personally, I think I would rather be slandered as an "elite intellectual" or a "limo liberal" than a "spitoon using, backwoods redneck, bible thumping hillbilly". I don't think either are correct of liberals or conservatives at large, but the latter seems to carry a little more vitriol. I don't think the election results are a vindication of conservatism at large, even if 11 states voted for banning gay marriage (many polls in those states indicate that a clear majority would allow at the least gay unions), or even if 20% said moral values (whatever that ambiguous term means) was their primary issue.You know, if "elite" or "limo liberal" were what the wingnut right called us--not everyone, just the wingnut right--then I'd say you have a point. But more often, we're called limp-wristed, effete, gun-haters, abortionists, welfare mothers, unAmerican, socialist, communist--far more vitriolic than the terms you list. Trust me--I've been called all that and worse right here on this forum. On the whole, the right is far better at spewing the hate speech than the left, mainly because the left has far more people in it who smack down our own side for doing it.

You know, if "elite" or "limo liberal" were what the wingnut right called us--not everyone, just the wingnut right--then I'd say you have a point. But more often, we're called limp-wristed, effete, gun-haters, abortionists, welfare mothers, unAmerican, socialist, communist--far more vitriolic than the terms you list. Trust me--I've been called all that and worse right here on this forum. On the whole, the right is far better at spewing the hate speech than the left, mainly because the left has far more people in it who smack down our own side for doing it.

Don't forget baby-killers.

All I have to say is this thread really went downhill fast as far as staying on topic.

Don't forget baby-killers.
No kidding. When I read about some of the crap that the lesser informed say about the left,I just shake my head. One of my favorites was the guy who was absolutely certain that it was Kerry's daughter, not Cheney's, who was a lesbian, and that if a preacher in California spoke out against homosexuality, he'd be fined $25,000 and that money would be given to lesbian couples to help them adopt children. And this guy was serious.

No kidding. When I read about some of the crap that the lesser informed say about the left,I just shake my head. One of my favorites was the guy who was absolutely certain that it was Kerry's daughter, not Cheney's, who was a lesbian, and that if a preacher in California spoke out against homosexuality, he'd be fined $25,000 and that money would be given to lesbian couples to help them adopt children. And this guy was serious.

This happened when and where?

You know, if "elite" or "limo liberal" were what the wingnut right called us--not everyone, just the wingnut right--then I'd say you have a point. But more often, we're called limp-wristed, effete, gun-haters, abortionists, welfare mothers, unAmerican, socialist, communist--far more vitriolic than the terms you list. Trust me--I've been called all that and worse right here on this forum. On the whole, the right is far better at spewing the hate speech than the left, mainly because the left has far more people in it who smack down our own side for doing it.

I would agree with you with except for the fact that center-left slanderers seem to get more air time in the media. Perhaps the media isn't representative, but it seems to me that it is far more socially acceptable to derride the sensabilities of red-state hillybillies than the blue-state urbanites.

Yes it has gone downhill

And I want to say the original post really captures what a lot of us middle of the roads think


Now you may try to argue that what we think is wrong … and point out examples of how that is not true cause of xyz

How Kerry really DID support such … or bush more

But the message was portrayed in just a big collage of he did this and that and said this … he tried too hard to be everything to everyone that he was not quite anything to anyone. And he left us confused …
The freverant support of his followers tried to convince us … then tried to cajole us … then tried to scare us … then tried to shame us … and not just republicans but those that held just SOME of their beliefs

In the end this is how it all appeared to us … weather that was the message you all were trying to send , I don’t know, but it is the message received.

4. Your constant references to the opinions of the rest of the world scared me, and I'm not talking about the "global test" comment. I don't care what Europeans think about me or my country. I learned in high school that living my life with one eye on the opinions of everyone else leads only to unnecessary turmoil and pointless pain. Why didn't you?

What I learned as early as in elementary school and as late as in highschool, through personal experience, is that living my life with one eye on the opinions of everyone else is the only way I can be sure of staying balanced.

Everyone talks about being "unbiased". What does unbiased mean? Does it mean to shut out the opinion of everyone else, cover your ears and eyes, and then expect to be able to form your own viewpoint, which shall be counted as the word of god? To me, it means to open not one eye, but both, to know the opinions of everyone, near and far, to understand the reasoning of the people who hate me as much as the reasoning of those who love me (or my opinion. or my country. or the color of my hair.) And then to form my opinion.

Any other way leads only to narcism. And who is truly perfect? I would say that anyone who believes him or herself to be so is not only mistaken, but is fundamentally flawed in character, and dangerous to those around him. Being inable to admit mistakes is a fatal malfunction of the mind, and it will inevitably result in disaster. And that is why I don't hate, nor mock, nor bash Bush. I fear him. I fear what his self-image might cause him to do with his power.

We live in a global society. I was born in New York to German parents, grew up in an American playgroup, a German elementary school, an International highschool. Am I German, or am I American?

The days of nationalism are over with the beginning of the internet; we cannot shut ourselves into our own little borders and be safe from all those foreign parts. We have to watch out how we are seen, how we (or our nation) is thought about. And that means all of us, and all our nations.

I feel that the point of this article is not to show that the person hated Bush, but felt that Kerry's supporters were mean to her, but that she didn't care all that much for Bush, but she didn't believe that the Kerry supporters were able to convince her to vote for Kerry.

I attended a John Kerry and a George Bush rally in very short succession. At the Kerry rally, the most positive message came in a few short sentences from Bruce Springsteen, then next on the positive scale was the message from Kerry, who, though somewhat rambling, came across pretty well.

But by this time my patience had worn thin. I felt, after four hours of standing that I was in a hostile crowd. The previous speakers, varied Ohio elected officials all had anger in the voice with two clear exceptions, when Senator John Glenn spoke, and when the Sherriff lead the crowd in the pledge of allegiance. The president of the college democrats told us that if Bush was elected, he'd reinstate the draft. Another said the Patriot Act was unprecedented tyrrany (which it isn't, America's drug policy prior to 9/11 had the exact same powers).

The vitriol of the crowd was enourmous. As I nudged my way through I heard conversations ranging from tales of Jackbooted thugs storming the streets of columbus, to being pulled over for speeding because of John Kerry bumper stickers. I heard people say that if Bush was re-elected they'd learn how to shoot a sniper rifle, whilst others talked of moving to Canada, and yet others of not paying their income taxes.

When the Sherrif lead the crowd in the pledge of allegiance, members of the crowd bust out in tantrums, shouting out the word "PIG" or "FASCIST". Hello! This Sherriff is from your party? Why are you doing this?

I eventually wound up behind a middle aged woman holding a "Mom's for Kerry" sign. I'd have moved, but there was no more room to move, and she had the sign in the air, right in the way of the stage constantly. I yelled out "Sign Down in Front" and she turns around and bitches me out about how this is a rally and she's gonna hold her sign from here to death and that I was clearly a Republican plant to incite violence in the crowd.

So, I kinda got bad vibes from the Kerry rally I attended. I've gotta go to class now, so I shall go in depth as to my experiences at the Bush rally later.

Hey all!
does anyone else notice how similar republicans and democrates are? If you are really torn between bush/kerry, maybe because they are pretty much the same.
Lets take a look at some of the issues:
1. The war in Iraq: Both are for it and sending more troops
2. The Patriot Act: Both are for it and expanding the civil lib's that it may revoke
3. The Drug War: Both are for it and expanding the useless spending on it (drug use is not a crime, it is a disease)

If you look at the debates, they are pretty much sayin the same thing!
This is where the crazy part comes in:
Reps and especially Dems want to continue herding us like cows into a A or B catagory. It is time to stop, think, and look at where the country is going. Both parties are trying to accomplish the same thing and that is War and Profit for the companies financing them.
http://www.opensecrets.org/
Check out the financing, check out the corporate cabinates, it is truely sickening (to me at least)
In reality, your vote doesnt count because politetions use their vote for who ever gives them the most money, AND THAT AINT YOU!

It is time to end this fleecing of america. There is so much wealth being wasted and squandered because we allow ourselved to be pillaged of our rights and our retirement funds!

In 4 years, you will hear the same debates, the same smear tactics and the same "if we dont get our guy in office the world is going to end." Just remember where your info is coming from and make a decition for yourself.

Lets end the corporate greed and start looking at Human NEEDS!

Vote Independent, Vote Libertarian, Vote Green, Vote Whatever, Just please dont vote main stream... its useless.
PEACE!
Chuck

I have just gotten through the first page and Already know what this is about. I am a die hard republican to be honest. I am completely appaled with the responses to the young womens message to all Democrates. You are just not thinking about what she said she pointed out very intrested points and pointed out all republicans dream... FOR A DEMOCRATE TO MAKE A STAND ON AN ISSUE AND TELL US ALL WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO IN OFFICE! I would vote for a democrate like that.

If you would like to know why I am a die hard Repbulican It is for I am a military man and All I have ever seen for the Democrates who do NOT Take a stand, is military recession which will leave the US open to attacks like 9/11.

Scincerely a boy of 17

Lord Ragen Paranoia

I have just gotten through the first page and Already know what this is about. I am a die hard republican to be honest. I am completely appaled with the responses to the young womens message to all Democrates. You are just not thinking about what she said she pointed out very intrested points and pointed out all republicans dream... FOR A DEMOCRATE TO MAKE A STAND ON AN ISSUE AND TELL US ALL WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO IN OFFICE! I would vote for a democrate like that.

If you would like to know why I am a die hard Repbulican It is for I am a military man and All I have ever seen for the Democrates who do NOT Take a stand, is military recession which will leave the US open to attacks like 9/11.

Scincerely a boy of 17

Lord Ragen Paranoia

How can you declare yourself a die-hard Republican, and then say you'd vote for a Democrat if he was more forceful about policy?

Interesting view about 9/11... how would more soldiers have helped? Machine gun emplacements on the WTC to shoot down straying passenger jets?

The problem with Republicans in this last election, is that Bush said Kerry was a 'flip-flopper' (talk about talking-down to your audience...) and the average Republican took that at face value.

Of course, 'politics' is all about... well, politics! So, people do have to change their stance on given issues... such as Bush talking (during campaigning, so it might not be true) about limiting BLM access to certain areas, where he had granted greater freedom before.

But, the Democrats didn't jump all over Bush changing his mind, because they didn't think that the American public was really dumb enough to be taken in by school-boy taunts like 'flip-flopper'.

Perhaps, Mz Clinton will run on a slogan that her opponent is a 'poo-head', and see if she can pick up more votes that way...

This is from an Internet blog...but I think it hits the nail on the head as to why so many opted for Bush instead of Kerry....


How You Could Have Had My Vote
It's been two days since John Kerry conceded, and all I am seeing, hearing and reading from the Democratic party is that you guys think you lost on "moral values." You seem to think this means nothing more than opposition to gay marriage. You seem to think that Bush voters waited in line for hours to stick it to the queers, to tell those faggots how much we hate them!

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Many Bush voters, like myself, were not happy to be voting for the President's re-election. Many Bush voters agonized over our decision and cast our vote in fear, trepidation, and trembling. Many of us would have given our left arms for a Democrat we could have supported.

Because I am too young to be as disillusioned as I am, and because I know that one-party rule is not good for my country, and because it is my deepest wish to see the Democratic party change into one I can give my whole-hearted support, I am going to explain why you didn't get my vote, and how you can get it in the future.

First, for context, let me give you a bit about my perspective: I am a single, heterosexual, college-educated woman in my late 20's with an annual income of about $30,000. I live in a solidly red state in the South, the region you guys wrote off entirely without even trying to persuade us to vote for you. I am not an ideologue, and I experience painful ambivalence about many political issues. The notion of an abortion makes me queasy, but I don't want Roe vs. Wade overturned. I have friends who've been impregnated by rape and friends who found out late in their third trimesters that they were carrying babies too malformed to ever have normal lives. The pictures of Iraqi children who've lost arms from the bombs my tax dollars bought make me shed tears, but I recognize that the war was the right thing to do, given the information we had available at the time the decision was made. I had no health insurance for three years, but I'm still, hesitantly, not in favor of socialized medicine. I know people who abuse the social services, but I also have friends who would be dead without the food stamps and SSI checks they collect each month. I believe in God and consider myself a Christian, but I don't go to church, and Falwell, Robertson, and their ilk scare me more than they scare you. I believe that in a perfect world, Roy Moore would have to live with the stench of his own ego, just like the rest of us do.

I have gay friends who are closeted and gay friends who couldn't be more open if they had QUEER tattooed across their foreheads, and I think they should be allowed to get married if they want to. I read The Onion, Dilbert, Dan Savage's sex advice, Salon.com, and quite a few blogs. The local librarians know me on sight. I waited in line until midnight when the fifth Harry Potter book came out. I can't wait to see the new Chucky movie. I will probably shack up before I get married, but I won't be proud of it. I wouldn't buy an SUV, even if I could pay cash for one. I recycle. I shop at Wal-mart, but I feel guilty about it, and if they unionized, I would never cross the picket line. I think FOX News is about as fair and balanced as a seesaw with a gorilla on one end.

President Bush's close relationships to people like John Ashcroft scare me. I hate the PATRIOT Act and am fearful of what might be part of PATRIOT II. The two dumbest trial balloons I've heard floated for his second-term agenda are privatizing Social Security and abolishing the income tax. When he says that God chose him to be President during this time of trial, I am embarrassed. I roll my eyes.

I am a pragmatic, disillusioned, realistic, and entirely ordinary member of the radical middle.

Here is why you didn't get my vote:

1. You didn't give me clear positions on the issues. I followed the news closely all through the campaign, but I still don't understand Kerry's position on Iraq. I know he voted for the IWR, but then he voted against the $87 billion. To you, that seemed to be a symbolic stand against Saddam Hussein (the IWR) but also a principled stand against a President who was out of control (against the $87 billion). To me, that was just confusing. He said he would have done everything different, but he also said that, knowing what he knew today (the day he was asked) he still would have cast the same vote. He said that he would bring allies to our side to share the burden, but he also said he would be sending 40,000 more of our troops. He said that we must finish the job, but he also said it was the wrong war at the wrong place and the wrong time. Huh?

Surprising because he did seem consistent to me. But then I'm a male hetero. Men and women don't always understand each other so I'll chalk it up to that.

2. You didn't convince me that you would defend America against the threats of terrorism. Kerry seemed to think that terrorism is like any other crime. You catch the people responsible and put them in jail, and that's that. After seeing the destruction – physical, financial, psychological, and emotional -- wrought by the September 11th attacks, I do not understand how he could believe this. The hijackers lived among us, ate at our restaurants, shopped in our malls, and wounded us worse than we have ever been wounded before. How Kerry saw this as a crime, and not as a paradigm-shifting event that deserved a military response, both in direct retaliation and to keep it from ever happening again by going on the offensive, is something I don't understand.

Criminals live among us before they commit terrible acts of crime... so what did you mean?
So again men and women don't understand each other maybe.

3. You insulted my intelligence by the constant mantra of Kerry's service in Vietnam. Most of the men I know who are older than 50 served in some way, either in country or in the Coast Guard or other non-combat roles. I don't see the relevance, and the drumbeat of "three purple hearts" struck me as manipulation. It was as if you were saying, "These dumbshit hawks want war? We'll give 'em a real war hero! That'll get their votes!"

Now we got to the bread and butter of your ignorance. You are just parroting the right now.
He rarely said 3 purple hearts...
But yes in order to combat Bush on security I think a war hero was needed.

4. Your constant references to the opinions of the rest of the world scared me, and I'm not talking about the "global test" comment. I don't care what Europeans think about me or my country. I learned in high school that living my life with one eye on the opinions of everyone else leads only to unnecessary turmoil and pointless pain. Why didn't you?

Apparently you never read the fact that our government was founded on a decent respect of other nation's opinions.
You don't have to care but the government should. So nothing wrong with global test. Bush tried this when he asked UN for Iraq but then ignored it when it gave bad results.

5. You disturbed me with your demonization of the rich. Rich people were talked about in this campaign as though they were all evil cheaters who had wage slaves tied up in the basement to be flogged for minimum wage, and what they didn't earn from the wage slaves' labor, they stole from nursing home residents. I am not rich, but I work hard, am learning about investing money, am continuing to improve my prospects for earning more money in the future, and fully expect to end up at least well-off someday. If I do, it will be because of my efforts and work, not because of winning "life's lottery." I know two millionaires personally. Both are entrepreneurs who took big risks and worked their backsides off for years to get where they are. Given that Kerry is married to a billionaire, this seemed especially hypocritical.

Not hypocritical. Many companies do act very badly. Its all about profit not about the workers.
Kerry understands that problem with income. He may have family who are rich like his wiffe who keeps income seperate but eh.

6. Here is something you could work on right about now: I could not stomach to listen to your incessant hatred of President Bush. Bush is stupid, Bush is an idiot, Bush is Hitler, Bush is a Nazi, Bush masturbates to photos of dead Iraqi babies, I'd vote for my dog before I'd vote for Bush, I'd vote for Castro before I'd vote for Bush, the Rethuglicans are fascists, Bush voters are treasonous, Bush should be impeached, blah blah blah blah blah blah. It was old three months after Bush's inauguration, and it's now just tiresome. I don't hate my President, even though I voted for him with more reluctance than I can express and a queasy feeling in my stomach. Language like this makes you seem immature, needlessly vulgar, and obnoxious.

Agreed, I'll never understand the anyone but Bush theme. But Bush is not hitler or a nazi's (that is giving them a bad name). My dog was better than Bush though. Bush could be impeached though for his miskeadings.

7. Lastly, and I hope this doesn't hurt anyone feelings, because my objective is to make you think, not emote: I don't think you really want my vote. I actively sought out your perspective. I tuned in regularly, for months, to your biggest media project, your serious effort to get your message out: Air America Radio. I listened all day on Good Friday as host after host mocked people like me for believing in Jesus's life, death, and resurrection. I listened as Janeane Garofalo, who was one of my favorite comedians for years, expressed hatred and disgust for Bush voters so vile that I ended my live stream feeling assaulted, as if I'd been vomited on. I listened the night that Mike Malloy told a young Republican to hang up the phone and go open a vein. I listened to pure, unadulterated venom that was so intense I sometimes cut the stream and cried. Tonight, your spokespeople on AAR have been calling people like me "snake-handling evangelicals," and that was about the kindest thing I heard. Um…y'all? I've lived in the South my entire life and have never met a single snake-handler. Your attitudes, language, and behavior toward people like me: reasonable, thinking Christians who are quite moderate politically and who are just as well-informed as you are (yes, I've read all the PNAC essays, too, and yes, they scare me, too) is reminiscent of nothing so much as an abusive ex-lover, a crazy and drunken stalker. "I'll make you love me, or you'll regret it, you worthless bitch! Come here and let me beat you over the head and tell you how stupid and worthless you are! Then you'll see it my way!"


I tried so hard to give you guys a chance. I'm young, I'm not extremely religious, and I'm supportive of liberal ideals like fighting for higher wages, stopping outsourcing of jobs, and standing up for the little guy. I wanted to vote Democratic this time, more than I can possibly put into words. You just didn't give me the option.

President Bush won on values, yes, but not hatred of gays or any other stereotype you have in your head about Bush voters like me.

He won because he has values, clearly defined values, and even though I agree with little of what he believes, at least I know what he believes. At least I know that he really does believe in something. At least I know that he will do what he says he will do.

That's disgustingly little, but unbelievably – you offered me less.

So, if you want my vote next time, and the vote of all my close friends, and the millions more like us that you refuse to believe exists, it's pretty simple: take positions and don't waffle on them. Stand up for America, especially with regard to terrorism. Shut up about what Germany and France think. Stop pretending that the only way to become wealthy in America is to cheat, for the sake of those of us who still want to get there. Treat the President with at least as much civility, if not respect, as you would've wanted right-wingers to give a President Kerry. Most importantly, please, please please, please, please, please stop abusing me. No more verbal and psychological and emotional savagery. Treat me like a voter whose vote you would actually appreciate getting, and you will get it.

Do you maybe, just maybe, see where I'm coming from?

I doubt it. But I had to try.


Sincerely,


A Very Sad American
Seriously you um said values but the values you chose were on the democratic side...
So fear was the only reason?
So we have to m,ake voters fear the opponent?

Guess people who say democrats should fight dirtier than repubs are right... sad that this is what it takes to win.

Guess people who say democrats should fight dirtier than repubs are right... sad that this is what it takes to win.


a lot of us middle road people got driven away at their blotched attempt to fight dirtier

Also the fact that by doing so you took away one our or REASONS to vote for you. People don’t vote republican for their campaigning tactics … but people vote democrat on their high opinion of people and what they can be

Sorry to say but ripping into an opposing candidate takes away for one of my reasons to vote for you.

And personally slamming a large majority of us voters and making us feel idiotic was a horrible idea.

Sorry you all have to be held to a higher standard but it is part of the platform you choose to stand on … it doesn’t have to be but if you don’t you just drive yourselves closer to them

In "Fascism Anyone?," Dr. Lawrence Britt, a political scientist, identifies 14 characteristics common to fascist regimes. His comparisons of Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Suharto, and Pinochet yielded this list of 14 "identifying characteristics of fascism."

1) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
-the Bush administration has concluded for the first time that some non-Iraqi prisoners captured by American forces in Iraq are not entitled to the protections of the Geneva Conventions
-House bill looks to legalize torture by foreign operatives
-Ashcroft refuses to give Congress torture memo
-July 1, 2003: U.S. Suspends Military Aid to Nearly 50 Countries: The United States on Tuesday suspended military assistance to nearly 50 countries, because they have supported the International Criminal Court and failed to exempt Americans from possible prosecution.
-Outsourcing Torture: Contractors act as interrogators: Defense Department turned to private sources to question prisoners for intelligence gathering.
-US has at least 9000 prisoners in secret detention
-al-Qaida Detainees 'Disappeared' : At least 11 al-Qaida suspects have "disappeared" in U.S. custody, and some may have been tortured, Human Rights Watch said in a report issued Monday.
-President Bush today distanced himself from his administration’s quiet effort to push through a law that would make it easier to send captured terror suspects to countries where torture is used.
Guantanamo Eyes Possible Execution Chamber
-Bush Civil Rights report released: "...the administration has failed to exhibit leadership or define a clear focus, relegating civil rights to a low priority."
3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
-Cheney warns that if Kerry is elected, the USA will suffer a "devastating attack"
-A scared populace is a compliant populace Terrorists are likely planning U.S. attacks, a U.S. Homeland Security official said Friday.
-Slander: Liberal Lies About the American Right
-How U.S. Attorney-General, a Christian Evangelist With Anti-Islamic Views On Record, Is Waging War On American Muslims
Dr. James J. Zogby: A co-ordinated and bigoted assault The anti-Arab campaign being waged today in the U.S. is an organised multi-pronged effort targeting a variety of Arab leaders, institutions and Islam.
-Congressman: Muslims 'enemy amongst us'
4.) Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5.) Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
-Bush refuses to sign U.N proposal on women's "sexual" rights
-Partial Birth Abortion Act of 2003 failed to provide any exception if a woman's health is at stake.
-Justice Dept. Demands Abortion Records
-W. David Hager chairman of the FDA's Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee does not prescribe contraceptives for single women, does not do abortions, will not prescribe RU-486 and will not insert IUDs. Hager believes that headaches, PMS and eating disorders can be cured by reading Scripture.
-Bush Administration to Extend Health Coverage to Fetuses but Not to Pregnant Women
-The State Department has awarded an explicitly anti-feminist U.S. group part of a US$10 million grant to train Iraqi women in political participation and democracy.
-Bush calls for constitutional ban on same-sex marriages
6.) Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
-Chain of TV and radio station donates $300,000 worth of airtime to GOP candidates for free last-minute political ads
-In bed with the republicans and banning antiwar songs: Clear channel
The White House recently called the president of NBC News, to discourage that network from broadcasting interviews with author of book about the Bush family
-Anti-Kerry film to air in prime-time Nation's largest TV chain orders all 62 stations to show movie without commercials right before election
-US seizes webservers from independent media sites
-Fibbing It Up at Fox
-If it's allowed to stand, an FCC ruling will feed media merger mania
-Articles published by American outlets suppressed in their own country
-Reporters in chains: Under Homeland Security orders, journalists from England, Sweden, Holland and other friendly countries are being detained at U.S. airports, strip-searched and deported.
-Bush releases another fake news video See an excerpt from the Education Department fake news propaganda video here (realplayer)
7.) Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
-Bush Aides ADMIT 'stoking fear' for political gain
GOP convention in a nutshell (quicktime)
8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
-Falwell says evangelical Christians now in control of Republican Party
-Religious networks broadcasting Bush's White House prayer event
-Thou shalt be like Bush: What makes this recently established, right-wing Christian college unique are the increasingly close - critics say alarmingly close - links it has with the Bush administration and the Republican establishment.
-Presidential Prayer Team
-US is 'battling Satan' says general
-US soldiers in Iraq asked to pray for Bush
-Park Service Continues to Push Creationist Theory at Grand Canyon and other nat'l parks
9.) Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
-Halliburton, Bechtel, and the Carlyle group: Why were lied into war
-Bush's talent for cronyism: foxes guarding the henhouse
-Bush Administration Exempts Oil Industry From Clean Water Act
-Controversial drilling method may be protected: Energy bill compromise would exempt 'hydraulic fracturing'
10.) Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
-Organized labor locks horns with White House Union leaders are working to displace GOP candidates

-President Bush Attacks Organized Labor Bush attacked organized labor Saturday, issuing orders effectively reducing how much money unions can spend for political activities and opening up government contracts to non-union bidding.
-March 2001: President Bush signed his name to four executive orders on organized labor last month, including one that cuts the money unions will have for political campaign spending.
-Congress and the Department of Labor are trying to change the rules on overtime pay, eliminating the 40 hour work week, taking eligibility for overtime pay away from millions of workers, and replacing time and a half pay with comp days.
11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
-Bush's new economic plan cuts funding for arts, education
-NEA vows to undo President Bush's education programs
-Artists from all over the world are being refused entry to the US on security grounds.
-In a highly unusual use of the USA Patriot Act, which its creators say was designed to prevent terrorist attacks in the United States, The New York Times reports that three artists have been served subpoenas to appear before a federal grand jury June 15
12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations
-U.S. Patriot Act Summary of fascist parts
-EFF Analysis of "Patriot II"
13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
-Bush Cronyism: Foxes Guarding the henhouse
-Iran-Contra Felons Get Good Jobs from Bush
-Big Iraq Reconstruction Contracts Went To Big Donors
-The companies making the most off the new Medicare contracts also donated the most to the GOP
14. Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
-Consultant who destroyed Democratic voter registration forms says his GOP clients are "very proud" of his company's actions
-RNC funds voter suppression efforts in at least 5 states
-Republican judge upholds RNC efforts to supress Democratic party voters
-Bush campaign chairman quits over illegal phone jamming
the 2000 election
-How To Rig An Election In The United States
-Scoop: Diebold Memos Disclose Florida 2000 E-Voting Fraud
-Election officials all over the country are erecting illegal barriers to keep young voters from casting ballots. From New Hampshire to California, officials have designed complex questionnaires that prevent college students from registering, hired high-powered attorneys to keep them off the rolls, shut down polling places on campuses and even threatened to arrest and imprison young voters

She seems to say that she thinks it's terrible for Democrats to fight dirty in elections, but that it's OK for Republicans.

I'm amazed that she would still vote for Bush, after all he has actually done that is against her beliefs, than vote for Kerry because "Democrats are too mean."
You make her point as well: She does not care about Europe's opinions, because they do not matter.

This has gotten sort of rediculous. Everyone should just fucking shut up. BOTH sides ripped into eachothers throats. BOTH sides lied extravagantly about the facts. DEMOCRATS portrayed their message - who it got to was the Republicans choice, so it didn't make much of a difference. REPUBLICANS were slandered by the Democrats - learn to deal with it if someone doesn't like you because it's going to happen alot in life. DEMOCRATS ignored those expected to vote conservative - and the REPUBLICANS pretty much did the same thing to us. DEMOCRATS focused on the issues, but in doing so lacked appeal to those seeking moral rightness, thus leaving that vote to the REPUBLICANS. BOTH sides did this but we did not remember one thing as a nation - neither George Bush nor John Kerry did any of the things mentioned above. Every time you listen to an ad you are listening to a lie. Every time you listen to them alone, you are hearing their own opinions and their own truths, and no matter what the other party said about you it was the man speaking up their at those podiums who would control your fate, not the supporters. That is where we should have made a choice as a nation, and that is where we unfortunately failed to keep focus.

And just a note for people talking about how this thread got off topic - It's bound to happen.

I would agree with you with except for the fact that center-left slanderers seem to get more air time in the media. Perhaps the media isn't representative, but it seems to me that it is far more socially acceptable to derride the sensabilities of red-state hillybillies than the blue-state urbanites.
I'm sorry, but that's crap--there are very few centrists of any political stripe that get lots of airtime, simply because they're not as interesting as the loudmouth extremists. The very fact that you refer to these people as center-left slanderers leads me to believe that you're not being honest about your point of view on this thread.

This has gotten sort of rediculous. Everyone should just fucking shut up. BOTH sides ripped into eachothers throats. BOTH sides lied extravagantly about the facts. DEMOCRATS portrayed their message - who it got to was the Republicans choice, so it didn't make much of a difference. REPUBLICANS were slandered by the Democrats - learn to deal with it if someone doesn't like you because it's going to happen alot in life. DEMOCRATS ignored those expected to vote conservative - and the REPUBLICANS pretty much did the same thing to us. DEMOCRATS focused on the issues, but in doing so lacked appeal to those seeking moral rightness, thus leaving that vote to the REPUBLICANS. BOTH sides did this but we did not remember one thing as a nation - neither George Bush nor John Kerry did any of the things mentioned above. Every time you listen to an ad you are listening to a lie. Every time you listen to them alone, you are hearing their own opinions and their own truths, and no matter what the other party said about you it was the man speaking up their at those podiums who would control your fate, not the supporters. That is where we should have made a choice as a nation, and that is where we unfortunately failed to keep focus.

And just a note for people talking about how this thread got off topic - It's bound to happen.

Absolutely....and....

It is a miracle if any thread beyond 10 posts stays on topic.

I'm sorry, but that's crap--there are very few centrists of any political stripe that get lots of airtime, simply because they're not as interesting as the loudmouth extremists. The very fact that you refer to these people as center-left slanderers leads me to believe that you're not being honest about your point of view on this thread.

I refer to center-left slanderers because that's what they are- people like Michael Moore is a left of center slanderer who you can see many places in pop culture cinema. How much airtime has he received? TONS. Meanwhile, right of center propogandists such as Coulter, get little to none. And that is how it should be. My use of "left of center slanderers" says absolutely nothing about my honesty. I thought her letter (in the original post) was representative of a lot of peoples' choice not to support Kerry...and some of her reasons I can identify with.