NationStates Jolt Archive


Kerry Won

MKULTRA
06-11-2004, 06:45
Kerry Won. Here are the Facts.

Greg Palast | November 5 2004

I know you don't want to hear it. You can't face one more hung chad. But I don't have a choice. As a journalist examining that messy sausage called American democracy, it's my job to tell you who got the most votes in the deciding states. Tuesday, in Ohio and New Mexico, it was John Kerry.

Most voters in Ohio thought they were voting for Kerry. CNN's exit poll showed Kerry beating Bush among Ohio women by 53 percent to 47 percent. Kerry also defeated Bush among Ohio's male voters 51 percent to 49 percent. Unless a third gender voted in Ohio, Kerry took the state.

So what's going on here? Answer: the exit polls are accurate. Pollsters ask, "Who did you vote for?" Unfortunately, they don't ask the crucial, question, "Was your vote counted?" The voters don't know.

Here's why. Although the exit polls show that most voters in Ohio punched cards for Kerry-Edwards, thousands of these votes were simply not recorded. This was predictable and it was predicted. [See TomPaine.com, "An Election Spoiled Rotten," November 1.]

Once again, at the heart of the Ohio uncounted vote game are, I'm sorry to report, hanging chads and pregnant chads, plus some other ballot tricks old and new.

The election in Ohio was not decided by the voters but by something called "spoilage." Typically in the United States, about 3 percent of the vote is voided, just thrown away, not recorded. When the bobble-head boobs on the tube tell you Ohio or any state was won by 51 percent to 49 percent, don't you believe it ... it has never happened in the United States, because the total never reaches a neat 100 percent. The television totals simply subtract out the spoiled vote.


Whose Votes Are Discarded?

And not all votes spoil equally. Most of those votes, say every official report, come from African-American and minority precincts. (To learn more, click here.)

We saw this in Florida in 2000. Exit polls showed Gore with a plurality of at least 50,000, but it didn't match the official count. That's because the official, Secretary of State Katherine Harris, excluded 179,855 spoiled votes. In Florida, as in Ohio, most of these votes lost were cast on punch cards where the hole wasn't punched through completely—leaving a 'hanging chad,'—or was punched extra times. Whose cards were discarded? Expert statisticians investigating spoilage for the government calculated that 54 percent of the ballots thrown in the dumpster were cast by black folks. (To read the report from the U.S. Civil Rights Commission, click here.)

And here's the key: Florida is terribly typical. The majority of ballots thrown out (there will be nearly 2 million tossed out from Tuesday's election) will have been cast by African American and other minority citizens.

So here we go again. Or, here we don't go again. Because unlike last time, Democrats aren't even asking Ohio to count these cards with the not-quite-punched holes (called "undervotes" in the voting biz). Nor are they demanding we look at the "overvotes" where voter intent may be discerned.

Ohio is one of the last states in America to still use the vote-spoiling punch-card machines. And the Secretary of State of Ohio, J. Kenneth Blackwell, wrote before the election, “the possibility of a close election with punch cards as the state’s primary voting device invites a Florida-like calamity.”

But this week, Blackwell, a rabidly partisan Republican, has warmed up to the result of sticking with machines that have a habit of eating Democratic votes. When asked if he feared being this year's Katherine Harris, Blackwell noted that Ms. Fix-it's efforts landed her a seat in Congress.

Exactly how many votes were lost to spoilage this time? Blackwell's office, notably, won't say, though the law requires it be reported. Hmm. But we know that last time, the total of Ohio votes discarded reached a democracy-damaging 1.96 percent. The machines produced their typical loss—that's 110,000 votes—overwhelmingly Democratic.


The Impact Of Challenges

First and foremost, Kerry was had by chads. But the Democrat wasn't punched out by punch cards alone. There were also the 'challenges.' That's a polite word for the Republican Party of Ohio's use of an old Ku Klux Klan technique: the attempt to block thousands of voters of color at the polls. In Ohio, Wisconsin and Florida, the GOP laid plans for poll workers to ambush citizens under arcane laws—almost never used—allowing party-designated poll watchers to finger individual voters and demand they be denied a ballot. The Ohio courts were horrified and federal law prohibits targeting of voters where race is a factor in the challenge. But our Supreme Court was prepared to let Republicans stand in the voting booth door.

In the end, the challenges were not overwhelming, but they were there. Many apparently resulted in voters getting these funky "provisional" ballots—a kind of voting placebo—which may or may not be counted. Blackwell estimates there were 175,000; Democrats say 250,000. Pick your number. But as challenges were aimed at minorities, no one doubts these are, again, overwhelmingly Democratic. Count them up, add in the spoiled punch cards (easy to tally with the human eye in a recount), and the totals begin to match the exit polls; and, golly, you've got yourself a new president. Remember, Bush won by 136,483 votes in Ohio.


Enchanted State's Enchanted Vote

Now, on to New Mexico, where a Kerry plurality—if all votes are counted—is more obvious still. Before the election, in TomPaine.com, I wrote, "John Kerry is down by several thousand votes in New Mexico, though not one ballot has yet been counted."

How did that happen? It's the spoilage, stupid; and the provisional ballots.

CNN said George Bush took New Mexico by 11,620 votes. Again, the network total added up to that miraculous, and non-existent, '100 percent' of ballots cast.

New Mexico reported in the last race a spoilage rate of 2.68 percent, votes lost almost entirely in Hispanic, Native American and poor precincts—Democratic turf. From Tuesday's vote, assuming the same ballot-loss rate, we can expect to see 18,000 ballots in the spoilage bin.

Spoilage has a very Democratic look in New Mexico. Hispanic voters in the Enchanted State, who voted more than two to one for Kerry, are five times as likely to have their vote spoil as a white voter. Counting these uncounted votes would easily overtake the Bush 'plurality.'

Already, the election-bending effects of spoilage are popping up in the election stats, exactly where we'd expect them: in heavily Hispanic areas controlled by Republican elections officials. Chaves County, in the "Little Texas" area of New Mexico, has a 44 percent Hispanic population, plus African Americans and Native Americans, yet George Bush "won" there 68 percent to 31 percent.

I spoke with Chaves' Republican county clerk before the election, and he told me that this huge spoilage rate among Hispanics simply indicated that such people simply can't make up their minds on the choice of candidate for president. Oddly, these brown people drive across the desert to register their indecision in a voting booth.

Now, let's add in the effect on the New Mexico tally of provisional ballots.

"They were handing them out like candy," Albuquerque journalist Renee Blake reported of provisional ballots. About 20,000 were given out. Who got them?

Santiago Juarez who ran the "Faithful Citizenship" program for the Catholic Archdiocese in New Mexico, told me that "his" voters, poor Hispanics, whom he identified as solid Kerry supporters, were handed the iffy provisional ballots. Hispanics were given provisional ballots, rather than the countable kind "almost religiously," he said, at polling stations when there was the least question about a voter's identification. Some voters, Santiago said, were simply turned away.


Your Kerry Victory Party

So we can call Ohio and New Mexico for John Kerry—if we count all the votes.

But that won't happen. Despite the Democratic Party's pledge, the leadership this time gave in to racial disenfranchisement once again. Why? No doubt, the Democrats know darn well that counting all the spoiled and provisional ballots will require the cooperation of Ohio's Secretary of State, Blackwell. He will ultimately decide which spoiled and provisional ballots get tallied. Blackwell, hankering to step into Kate Harris' political pumps, is unlikely to permit anything close to a full count. Also, Democratic leadership knows darn well the media would punish the party for demanding a full count.

What now? Kerry won, so hold your victory party. But make sure the shades are down: it may be become illegal to demand a full vote count under PATRIOT Act III.

I used to write a column for the Guardian papers in London. Several friends have asked me if I will again leave the country. In light of the failure—a second time—to count all the votes, that won't be necessary. My country has left me.
Tygaland
06-11-2004, 06:49
Already been posted...

:rolleyes:
Roachsylvania
06-11-2004, 06:50
Jesus Christ, how stupid do you have to be to not make absolutely sure that the hole is completely 100% punched? That's really my only thought on the issue, as I'm just too burned out to argue either side.
Uhlover
06-11-2004, 06:52
Bush Won Cant You Democrates Get This Though Your Head!!!
MKULTRA
06-11-2004, 06:58
Bush hacked the vote
The Senates
06-11-2004, 07:01
Well, it doesn't matter. Since apprx 59 million people were stupid enough to vote for the guy, that's that. Arguing over a few votes here and there to shift a state... that's what we hated the Republicans for doing in 2000.
Unfree People
06-11-2004, 07:02
Bush Won Cant You Democrates Get This Though Your Head!!!You're not helping anything.

Unfree People
Forum Moderator
Panhandlia
06-11-2004, 07:02
Bush hacked the vote
Of course! Bush, together with the Council of Foreign Relations, the Illuminati, Skull and Bones, and the Trilateral Commission somehow managed to convince people to mis-mark their ballots, in enough numbers that he would win! Why didn't we see it?!?!

Seriously, TRA...you need to quit hitting that bong. Some fresh air will do what little brains you have left some good.
Brezhnev
06-11-2004, 07:05
Michael Moore was in Cuyahoga County (a.k.a. Cleveland) on Election Day and he says he didn't see any fraud.
Valued Knowledge
06-11-2004, 07:08
I love conspiracy theories, don't you? The absence of any real worries or work... oh, sure you get all mad about something, but you really like it. They entertain you, and make you feel better about the cold hard facts which you so dislike.

Bush won. I thought everyone would be able to accept that graciously, and get over it. But no, I see all these threads going "Kerry Won!" or "Everyone in all the red states are complete retards!". Have fun with that. I'll be over in the corner, not falling into this pit of immaturity you've dug for yourselfs.
Altegonia
06-11-2004, 07:11
I used to keep up email contact with the tri-lateral commision and find out what they were discussing and stuff. They are very nice people, not like that cagey Illuminati with its secret plots and stuff.
The Senates
06-11-2004, 07:12
I love conspiracy theories, don't you? The absence of any real worries or work... oh, sure you get all mad about something, but you really like it. They entertain you, and make you feel better about the cold hard facts which you so dislike.No, not at all. I hate it. They actually serve to make me even more furious at the fact that elections are not fair in this country, whether these individual theories are true or not. Stop generalizing.

Bush won. I thought everyone would be able to accept that graciously, and get over it. But no, I see all these threads going "Kerry Won!" or "Everyone in all the red states are complete retards!". Have fun with that. I'll be over in the corner, not falling into this pit of immaturity you've dug for yourselfs.Ah, gimme a break... a) watch Kerry's speech. That's graciousness for you, b) it's our way of dealing with it, these forums are predominately liberal, I mean it's better than grabbing our gun and going on a furious rampage isn't it? c) we're allowed to hate Bush's guts for what he's done to our country and our world, d) it's 'yourselves'.
Brandoris
06-11-2004, 07:14
*sigh* I dislike Bush myself but yeah, face it, he won. Deal with the 4 more years of crap and shut up, please.
JuNii
06-11-2004, 07:14
Kerry conceided. He did not want the country torn apart like in 2000. Let's support Kerry in this.
Altegonia
06-11-2004, 07:14
Ah, gimme a break... a) watch Kerry's speech. That's graciousness for you, b) it's our way of dealing with it, these forums are predominately liberal, I mean it's better than grabbing our gun and going on a furious rampage isn't it? c) we're allowed to hate Bush's guts for what he's done to our country and our world, d) it's 'yourselves'.
Liberals have guns? What is this country coming to?
Furisia
06-11-2004, 07:16
Ohio's Secretary of State is probably considered a member of one of those 'disenfranchised' voters. He's African-American. Besides, there were TWO WEEKS prior to election day to actually go vote. TWO WEEKS to actually say to an official, "Could ya please hand me another card, I fucked up this one" or "HOW DO I USE THIS VOTING DEVICE AGAIN?"

Ah yes, remember too, there are officials from both parties at all polling sites that can voice a doubt/challenge a voter coming to make their choice. What burdens my thoughts is how you can say that once again it was a coup. It's funny, if George Bush were a democrat, the democratic party would lick his boots. They'd probably also spontaneously combust with a split feeling of pride for Bush and Clinton, if they were from the same named party.

Oh well, this rant's done. I'm wrong automatically though, cause I don't think the same way as the anti-Bush people do. Well if, overall, my personal backing of Bush is wrong, I don't want to be right.

One thing I can say is, I'm glad this country doesn't force it's citizens to vote. Freedom has it's good side afterall.
Copiosa Scotia
06-11-2004, 07:18
If you want to talk about cheating, why don't you tell us about the counties with 115% voter registration?
Roachsylvania
06-11-2004, 07:18
I just noticed it mentioned Chaves county in there, saying the Republicans stole it. All I can say is: "BWAHAHAHAHAHAH..... HAHAHAHAHA!!!!" They guy's obviously never been to Chaves county, New Mexico. The place is ridiculously Republican. They must have had a huge turnout for the Democrats there for only 68% of the county to go for Bush. Hell, I'm afraid to even say that I'm a Democrat there, for fear of having my ass beat by some psychotic Bushies. And they say Hispanics tend to vote Democrat; not the Hispanics I know. And also, it's called the Land of Enchantment, not the Enchanted State. While both sound pretty stupid, the latter is worse by far. Now I'm as disappointed as anyone that Bush won, but this Greg Palast guy is full of shit.
The Tenor Sax Section
06-11-2004, 07:26
Kerry conceided. He did not want the country torn apart like in 2000. Let's support Kerry in this.


No kidding. He went out with dignity, and he asked that his supporters do the same. He said he wants everyone to pull the nation back together and keep moving forward.

Yet still, some of his supporters seem to want to acts as Al Gore Cry Babies.
Altegonia
06-11-2004, 07:28
Isn't MKULTRA the government mind control experiment which produced Mel Gibson's character in.... (insert dramatic reverb here) CONSPIRACY THEORY!
MKULTRA
06-11-2004, 07:28
Kerry conceided. He did not want the country torn apart like in 2000. Let's support Kerry in this.
Kerry was weak and had no right to concede before every vote was counted
MKULTRA
06-11-2004, 07:30
The Ohio sec of state is a corrupt republican pig who was involved with Bush stealing the election the last time around too
MKULTRA
06-11-2004, 07:31
No kidding. He went out with dignity, and he asked that his supporters do the same. He said he wants everyone to pull the nation back together and keep moving forward.

Yet still, some of his supporters seem to want to acts as Al Gore Cry Babies.
the nation wont heal until Bush stops acten like the scumbag he is after running the most hatefilled campaign in american history based on total lies his cheap rhetoric about unity isnt enuf--we demand DEEDS
Altegonia
06-11-2004, 07:35
the nation wont heal until Bush stops acten like the scumbag he is
This argumentation is almost irrefutable. i cannot believe no one has put this forth in such a logical and well reasoned way before. Wow, this post was not at all childish or inflammatory, kind of like this one.
Sith Jedi
06-11-2004, 07:40
Of course! Bush, together with the Council of Foreign Relations, the Illuminati, Skull and Bones, and the Trilateral Commission somehow managed to convince people to mis-mark their ballots, in enough numbers that he would win! Why didn't we see it?!?!

Seriously, TRA...you need to quit hitting that bong. Some fresh air will do what little brains you have left some good.


Well, yes, your exactly right the Illumanti control France too. Until the MJ12/Unatco tried to jack it from them. (great game isn't it?)

But seriously though, bush won. In case you never realized not everyone votes in polls, and if anything was changed through computers CNN is very liberal, and could have edited their polls.
Brezhnev
06-11-2004, 07:41
The Ohio sec of state is a corrupt republican pig who was involved with Bush stealing the election the last time around too
Hmm, well what did he do to help Bush steal the election?
Unfree People
06-11-2004, 07:46
I just noticed it mentioned Chaves county in there, saying the Republicans stole it. All I can say is: "BWAHAHAHAHAHAH..... HAHAHAHAHA!!!!" They guy's obviously never been to Chaves county, New Mexico. The place is ridiculously Republican. They must have had a huge turnout for the Democrats there for only 68% of the county to go for Bush. Hell, I'm afraid to even say that I'm a Democrat there, for fear of having my ass beat by some psychotic Bushies. And they say Hispanics tend to vote Democrat; not the Hispanics I know. And also, it's called the Land of Enchantment, not the Enchanted State. While both sound pretty stupid, the latter is worse by far. Now I'm as disappointed as anyone that Bush won, but this Greg Palast guy is full of shit.
Which one is Chaves county (in terms of what cities are there)? I'm from Bernalillo and was shocked to see it barely slide Kerry, I always thought it was chock full of liberals.
BackwoodsSquatches
06-11-2004, 09:02
What I want to know is:

If the absentee votes, and overseas votes in Ohio, werent even going to be counted untill 11 days after the election, wich the democrats were expecting 2/3.......why did Kerry concede so quickly?
Andaluciae
06-11-2004, 09:07
This makes the fourth time I have heard of this fell article today. Please, stop posting it I am sick of it.

Exit polls are inaccurate. They do not ask the entire population. I know one person in the entire John Glenn Institute Public Policy and Public Service Living Learning Program at OSU. We all voted. Only one was asked.

That number is of 80 people.

Polls are not a census, whilst the election is a census of voters, it interviews 100% of voters. Whilst exit polls interview very very few people.

MKULTRA, chill.
Deeelo
06-11-2004, 09:09
Kery won? Won what?
Andaluciae
06-11-2004, 09:09
What I want to know is:

If the absentee votes, and overseas votes in Ohio, werent even going to be counted untill 11 days after the election, wich the democrats were expecting 2/3.......why did Kerry concede so quickly?

Dude, just so you realize the absentee ballots are typically turned in by Bush's two largest (percentage wise) constituencies, the military and people over 60. They don't go 2/3 dem, propaganists may say this, but that doesn't make it true.

This are facts dude.
Andaluciae
06-11-2004, 09:12
Kery won? Won what?
Massachussetts, New York, Vermont, New Hampshire, Pennsylvannia, Maryland, Michigan (hiss), Oregon, Washington and Kahl-ee-forn-yah. Not 270 electoral votes though.
My country not yours
06-11-2004, 09:13
in response to why bush got so many votes and why kerry lost written by Reaganodia



It's simple really. Millions of Americans actually voted for John Kerry before they voted against him.
Doujin
06-11-2004, 09:13
What I want to know is:

If the absentee votes, and overseas votes in Ohio, werent even going to be counted untill 11 days after the election, wich the democrats were expecting 2/3.......why did Kerry concede so quickly?

According to the Sec State of Ohio, there were 150-175,000 absentee/etc votes, and that wouldn't have been enough to give Kerry the state. Even though CSPAN and CNN were getting reports of 250,000 votes.
Doujin
06-11-2004, 09:16
Dude, just so you realize the absentee ballots are typically turned in by Bush's two largest (percentage wise) constituencies, the military and people over 60. They don't go 2/3 dem, propaganists may say this, but that doesn't make it true.

This are facts dude.

They are? Can I see evidence that supports this please? And as far as the military and people over 60 supporting Bush, it's really split half/half. Theirs the moral issue, and then theirs the Social Security issue which is most definately on the minds of most seniors.
Andaluciae
06-11-2004, 09:22
Look it up, I'm too tired to. I saw the numbers on CNN. They might be on cnn.com if you can find them. And anyways, the requirements for an absentee ballot in Ohio are pretty strict, I know, I voted absentee, and I had to prove I'd be out of county on election day.

if it's too hard to look up cnn go to www.cnn.com

And they are Bush's strongest voting block.
Damaica
06-11-2004, 09:23
Kerry conceded because it came to be known that he would not get the almost 100% of the absentee and provisional votes he needed.

Oh and by the way, Kerry lost. even if, 2000 years down the road, we find out he should have won, he STILL lost. Let the past be the past, and move on. I wasn't happy when Bush won in 2000, but he STILL won. I supported Bush in 2004, though.

There's this brand new concept out there, oh, what did they call it? Oh yeah, MOVING ON. Maybe we all (both Rs and Ds) should MOVE ON!!!
Andaluciae
06-11-2004, 09:25
hehehe, let's not forget the dems favorite 527 moveon.org!

Their name says it all.