NationStates Jolt Archive

The Democratic Party focuses on the minority vote first and I say that most of the liberal swaying towards such things as "Affirmative Action" have become unrealistic, and several African Americans leaders see it as such.

The Democratic Party cater to minorities just to gain their vote, and many of us feel it is an indignity. There are Christians that do not vote Republican, just as there are minorities who do not vote Democratic.

We do not all believe in Affirmative Action. We see our teenagers receiving 20% of their grades simply because they are black, and we view it as a clear insult to our intelligence.

Many of us own large & small business, so we understand it isn't the government's place to tell anyone who they must hire. It does not benefit everyone involved so it reaffirms seperatism. I see it as no different than seperate drinking fountains.

I'll raise my glass to that!

The Democratic Party focuses on the minority vote first and I say that most of the liberal swaying towards such things as "Affirmative Action" have become unrealistic, and several African Americans leaders see it as such.

The Democratic Party cater to minorities just to gain their vote, and many of us feel it is an indignity. There are Christians that do not vote Republican, just as there are minorities who do not vote Democratic.

We do not all believe in Affirmative Action. We see our teenagers receiving 20% of their grades simply because they are black, and we view it as a clear insult to our intelligence.

Many of us own large & small business, so we understand it isn't the government's place to tell anyone who they must hire. It does not benefit everyone involved so it reaffirms seperatism. I see it as no different than seperate drinking fountains.

:) seeing beyond the point of view that would give you the most personal benefits is always refreshing to see

We just have to all work harder … we cant take the easy wy out!

A similar thing in the UK (I don't know if you have it over in the States) is that businesses over a certain size have to employ a certain amount of minority workers - while a lot of businesses might still have racist owners who would discriminate and obviously that needs to be stopped, wouldn't it be insulting if you found out you'd only been employed to fill a quota?

It's not quite the same thing, but it's kinda related. I'd prefer to know I got the job on my merits rather than the colour of my skin - be it at the hands of a racist employer or some government quota businesses have to fill. Either way it's your skin that's been considered first and foremost, and that's still discrimination.

What are you talking about? What is this "20%" nonsense based on? Please provide a link to where you secured this information.

I agree that the Democrats take the minority vote for granted, but spare us the diatribe on Affirmative Action. These programs were adopted to offset decades of bias against minorities in higher education---bias that EVERYONE (even Republicans) acknowledge existed and continues to exist. Consider the study released earlier this year and cited by Senator Joseph Biden showing a disparity in hiring practices between potential employees having "European-" and "African-" sounding names. You can't ignore the fact that there exists real hostility to minorities in both education and employment sectors of the United States. I say this as a college-educated, self-employed minority business owner.

The real key to success for minorities in the fields of higher education and employment is self-sufficiency. The majority population will always look to take care of itself, and have absolutely no problem sharing their resources so long as they remain "in the family." As minorities, we should adopt that model and build up our own communities economically and educationally. After all, the Black American population is the largest consumer group in the world.

I am confident we can use those resources to better ourselves. Then let those so inclined within the majority community come to the realization that all the societal woes they blame on us (including their fable about Affirmative Action) are really just impairments originating within their communities.

And if you are a minority, stop feeding the beast with this ridiculous, apologist rhetoric.

A similar thing in the UK (I don't know if you have it over in the States) is that businesses over a certain size have to employ a certain amount of minority workers - while a lot of businesses might still have racist owners who would discriminate and obviously that needs to be stopped, wouldn't it be insulting if you found out you'd only been employed to fill a quota?

It's not quite the same thing, but it's kinda related. I'd prefer to know I got the job on my merits rather than the colour of my skin - be it at the hands of a racist employer or some government quota businesses have to fill. Either way it's your skin that's been considered first and foremost, and that's still discrimination.

Yes, it is the same thing in the US and while it doesn't affect every small business it does affect some. It's an acceptable standard in large companies because they don't want to deal with lawsuits, and a small business owner would be ruined over racist claim. I think the problem lies with too many people crying 'racism' where it isn't due, and liberal leaders catering to the mere idea of it.

Not that I suspect you care one way or the other, except insofar as a statement not in agreement with your own may give you cause to respond indignantly, or perhaps to complain to a Mod, but I am constantly insulted by conservative thinking.

There's not a ot that can be done about it though, not from either of our points of view. There's no way to prevent people from thinkiing, so there's no way to keep from feeling insulted.

Stalemate.

Is it an insult to a white man if he knew he was hired, instead of a minority, because he was white?

The Democratic Party has the values of helping the oppressed. We don't want to see tacit racism allowed to flourish, let alone blatant racism. Like racial profiling (which has apparently come back into vogue).

Minorities suffer from poor (in all senses) schools, so Affirmative Action in schooling gives the at least a chance to overcome that shortcoming. Minorities are kept from voting, so they don't get fair representation, which perpetuates the situation.

So don't accuse Democrats of racism (as you did with the drinking fountain remark). If you want to see racism, tacit or not, look at the Republican Party.

I feel sorry for anyone who can't see the oppurtunites America offers. There is no need to assist an intelligent person in this country. Individuals can arrive in this country everyday with nothing in their pockets and create a better life (or even own their own businesses) for themselves based on what the government has already created for everyone. Listening to these white liberals talk about giving me a "leg up" because I am a minority is a damn insult. They think I'm not smart enough to make it on my own? I need help to gain better grades? I can't find my own career? I can't create my own job? Some of you need to pay attention to the underlying racism here. :mad:

I feel sorry for anyone who can't see the oppurtunites America offers. There is no need to assist an intelligent person in this country. Individuals can arrive in this country everyday with nothing in their pockets and create a better life (or even own their own businesses) for themselves based on what the government has already created for everyone. Listening to these white liberals talk about giving me a "leg up" because I am a minority is a damn insult. They think I'm not smart enough to make it on my own? I need help to gain better grades? I can't find my own career? I can't create my own job? Some of you need to pay attention to the underlying racism here. :mad:

That's right I said it!!!

Liberal Thinking Insults Some of Us

It has been my experience that Conservatives often find "thinking" insulting.

The Question: How can blacks compete in the workplace?

The Answer: School Vouchers.

It has been my experience that Conservatives often find "thinking" insulting.

Wow that sure is mature thinking :rolleyes:

No we don't, Its just when people like you sart talking. So shut up

I do not advocate Affirmative Action, either. Or political correctness for that matter.

i already outlined why this is foolish

i already outlined why this is foolish

It's foolish to the fools.

I feel sorry for anyone who can't see the oppurtunites America offers. There is no need to assist an intelligent person in this country. Individuals can arrive in this country everyday with nothing in their pockets and create a better life (or even own their own businesses) for themselves based on what the government has already created for everyone. Listening to these white liberals talk about giving me a "leg up" because I am a minority is a damn insult. They think I'm not smart enough to make it on my own? I need help to gain better grades? I can't find my own career? I can't create my own job? Some of you need to pay attention to the underlying racism here. :mad:

Have you EVER looked into why somebody was on assistence?

Mom bought into the conservative family value crap about moms at home(well family values wasn't being spouted then). She only went as far as high school.

My "wonderful" old man decided family life was not for him and felt he didn't have to pay for two kids.

Mom had no skills except maybe being a waitress. She worked a crap low wage job that didn't provide. She did social assitence while she went to school. We kept the house and we got reasonable food to eat.

And you know what that wasted tax money got in return for I think a year; 2 tops of welfare?

A women who went on to become an RN who has been involved with about 40000 births.

A girl who graduated Magna Cum Laude from UC Berkeley and retired at 28 after making a butt load of money.

A computer nurd who is a now WAN engineer for a multinational.

Not a bad investment of tax money.

You accuse racism?

You might want to look at some underlying prejudices you seem to have.

Not everybody is asking for everything to be given to them. Some simply ask for help during a crap time in their lives. There are abusers. No arugment on that. But to view everybody as abusers and or lazy is just wrong.

I feel sorry for anyone who can't see the oppurtunites America offers. There is no need to assist an intelligent person in this country. Individuals can arrive in this country everyday with nothing in their pockets and create a better life (or even own their own businesses) for themselves based on what the government has already created for everyone. Listening to these white liberals talk about giving me a "leg up" because I am a minority is a damn insult. They think I'm not smart enough to make it on my own? I need help to gain better grades? I can't find my own career? I can't create my own job? Some of you need to pay attention to the underlying racism here. :mad:

It's also about gender equality. And before anyone starts ranting about how women are equal, look at the fact we STILL make 79 cents on the dollar.

I went to the college of my choice based on my grades, I worked for every grade I earned and for every honor I have acheived.

I work in the male dominated technology industry. And yes, disparity exists. Disparity in pay and in respect.

Although the marginalization is not overt, it does exist. Women in IT do not gain the level of respect their male counterparts do. Women in positons of power are not treated fairly. We have to work far harder to get the respect of our male peers that is granted to them by default.

And some women would not even have these positions were it not for the equal employment laws. Not because they aren't qualified, but because the perception is they can't do the job as well. That somehow we are too emotional to make firm, rational decisions.

I resent that attitude. I do not resent the laws that force John to make an effort to hire women.

I wouldn't have my current job - or my education - if these laws had not been in place. Not for lack of trying, but because of too many obstacles.

Now, where are my 21 cents?!?!?!?

Have you EVER looked into why somebody was on assistence?

Mom bought into the conservative family value crap about moms at home(well family values wasn't being spouted then). She only went as far as high school.

My "wonderful" old man decided family life was not for him and felt he didn't have to pay for two kids.

Mom had no skills except maybe being a waitress. She worked a crap low wage job that didn't provide. She did social assitence while she went to school. We kept the house and we got reasonable food to eat.

And you know what that wasted tax money got in return for I think a year; 2 tops of welfare?

A women who went on to become an RN who has been involved with about 40000 births.

A girl who graduated Magna Cum Laude from UC Berkeley and retired at 28 after making a butt load of money.

A computer nurd who is a now WAN engineer for a multinational.

Not a bad investment of tax money.

You accuse racism?

You might want to look at some underlying prejudices you seem to have.

Not everybody is asking for everything to be given to them. Some simply ask for help during a crap time in their lives. There are abusers. No arugment on that. But to view everybody or lazy is just wrong.

I can use these words as my own example.

Only use the system where it is needed.

We do not need a percentage added to our college scores because of our color, because we are not dumber than you.

We do not need to force companies to hire us based on our color, because we are capable of finding our own jobs. We are capable of creating our own jobs when none can be found.

i already outlined why this is foolish

Well its not like what we say is going to have any affect on anyone.
Changing what people think is a very hard task.
It rarely ever works on these things anyway. Everybody is in full defense mode when it comes to changing there mind's.

So really no-matter what we believe, we are just setting up for arguments

Wow that sure is mature thinking :rolleyes:

No we don't, Its just when people like you sart talking. So shut up

Ah, another insulted conservative.

It's also about gender equality. And before anyone starts ranting about how women are equal, look at the fact we STILL make 79 cents on the dollar.

I went to the college of my choice based on my grades, I worked for every grade I earned and for every honor I have acheived.

I work in the male dominated technology industry. And yes, disparity exists. Disparity in pay and in respect.

Although the marginalization is not overt, it does exist. Women in IT do not gain the level of respect their male counterparts do. Women in positons of power are not treated fairly. We have to work far harder to get the respect of our male peers that is granted to them by default.

And some women would not even have these positions were it not for the equal employment laws. Not because they aren't qualified, but because the perception is they can't do the job as well. That somehow we are too emotional to make firm, rational decisions.

I resent that attitude. I do not resent the laws that force John to make an effort to hire women.

I wouldn't have my current job - or my education - if these laws had not been in place. Not for lack of trying, but because of too many obstacles.

Now, where are my 21 cents?!?!?!?

Intelligent women in high paying positions are in reality not being paid as much as a man, but not all corporations are like this either. Why do you work for a company that will do this to you? Why do you not sue this company? If you are who you say you are then you must be capable of better things. Make those things happen; create your own job, create your own company.

Intelligent women in high paying positions are in reality not being paid as much as a man, but not all corporations are like this either. Why do you work for a company that will do this to you? Why do you not sue this company? If you are who you say you are then you must be capable of better things. Make those things happen; create your own job, create your own company.

Well, Sukafitz, personally I am compensated equal to my male counterparts in my current position. I was actually talking about the broader spectrum and should have clarified as such.

The glass ceiling does exist tough - but I was wrong on the 79 cents

"A full-time working woman currently receives only 73 cents to every dollar received by a man.


African-American women are paid only 65 cents for every dollar received by white men while Hispanic women are paid only 53 cents to the dollar. "

From the NOW website: http://www.now.org/issues/economic/factsheet.html

Now, SHOW ME THE MONEY. Not just for myself, but for all women.

There is definitely a prejudice against minorities and women as a whole. But affirmative action is a horrible idea because it destroys any resemblance of individuality. We cannot lump people into a collective whole, saying that blacks are always mistreated and underpriveleged and need help.

Affirmative action is a rash reaction, it spends money where it is already too late. Affirmative action money should be spent on the lower levels of education to stop racial profiling before it becomes a problem. Reactionary policies only strengthen the views of those they are aimed at. The only way to stop this is education and understanding in the development stages.

There is definitely a prejudice against minorities and women as a whole. But affirmative action is a horrible idea because it destroys any resemblance of individuality. We cannot lump people into a collective whole, saying that blacks are always mistreated and underpriveleged and need help.

Affirmative action is a rash reaction, it spends money where it is already too late. Affirmative action money should be spent on the lower levels of education to stop racial profiling before it becomes a problem. Reactionary policies only strengthen the views of those they are aimed at. The only way to stop this is education and understanding in the development stages.

Just to point out not all Liberals belive in AA. I am a centrist but this explains me. For example, I tutored a Vietnamese kid in computers at a community college. I had to litterally drag him through his course work as he just barely grasp the concepts(it wasn't an english thing).

We applied to Berkeley Computer Science. He got in with a C average and I was denied with an A average.

Now my wife is very liberal and she is against it as well.....

I feel sorry for anyone who can't see the oppurtunites America offers. There is no need to assist an intelligent person in this country. Individuals can arrive in this country everyday with nothing in their pockets and create a better life (or even own their own businesses) for themselves based on what the government has already created for everyone. Listening to these white liberals talk about giving me a "leg up" because I am a minority is a damn insult. They think I'm not smart enough to make it on my own? I need help to gain better grades? I can't find my own career? I can't create my own job? Some of you need to pay attention to the underlying racism here. :mad:

The median income of a Black family in the united states is 15,000 dollars less than the median income of a white family; Hispanic families average only $4,000 than that. The average female household earns $12,000 than the average male householder.

Does that mean that Blacks are stupider than Hispanics, who are stupider than whites, and that women are inferior to men? Obviously not, because those generalizations are not true. What this data obliviously does indicate however is that there is a societal force which prevents minorities and women from doing as well in the United States as white men. Democrats believe that said societal force, which virtually everyone acknowledges to be a combination of current racism and deliberate, government-enforced inequality from decades ago, must be fought by the government.

Congratulations, you have been successful in life. However, simply by my whiteness, I have had titanic advantages. On average my parents are richer, my schools better, my test scores superior. Is it fair for ethnicity to deliver such an advantage to someone who has done nothing to earn it? Absolutely not.

You may argue the methods by which affirmative action operates, but anyone who looks at the census data should see the desperate need for some leveling factor. In a country that prides itself on offering freedom and equality, we are nowhere even close.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p60-218.pdf (page 10)

Wow that sure is mature thinking :rolleyes:

No we don't, Its just when people like you sart talking. So shut up

*shakes head* So very sad. I hope you were kidding with your response, because if you aren't, you're stupidity frightens me.

The median income of a Black family in the united states is 15,000 dollars less than the median income of a white family; Hispanic families average only $4,000 than that. The average female household earns $12,000 than the average male householder.

Does that mean that Blacks are stupider than Hispanics, who are stupider than whites, and that women are inferior to men? Obviously not, because those generalizations are not true. What this data obliviously does indicate however is that there is a societal force which prevents minorities and women from doing as well in the United States as white men. Democrats believe that said societal force, which virtually everyone acknowledges to be a combination of current racism and deliberate, government-enforced inequality from decades ago, must be fought by the government.

Congratulations, you have been successful in life. However, simply by my whiteness, I have had titanic advantages. On average my parents are richer, my schools better, my test scores superior. Is it fair for ethnicity to deliver such an advantage to someone who has done nothing to earn it? Absolutely not.

You may argue the methods by which affirmative action operates, but anyone who looks at the census data should see the desperate need for some leveling factor. In a country that prides itself on offering freedom and equality, we are nowhere even close.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p60-218.pdf (page 10)

This has a lot more to do with educational and economic disparities in the past. With the maturation of this generation and the next we should see this disparity diminish. If not, then I will begin to wonder if AA isn't a bad idea.

Exactly. Women and minorities have lower median incomes and are fewer in number in high positions. Have you ever considered this may be because far fewer have gone on to higher education, and many women especially who go into higher education tend to go into libreal arts fields?

At my university, in the college of engineering, the men outnumber the women perhaps 10 to 1. Every engineer that graduates and gets a job will be starting out at $40k+/year. Every elementary ed major that graduates will likely start out at $26k.

The idea of Affirmative Action is to help the minority community. Years ago, there were only a few blacks in college and everyone thought black people were stupid. The point was, that by yes unfairly helping some blacks they would return and help the community. Its the same with foriegn students. And in that part the program is pretty effective.

However, blacks and other minorities are still worse off than whites. While there are always going to be poor blacks and poor whites, we should help the average.

I think that instead of adding points, consider different things more or less. Place less on school and maybe SAT and more oncommunity service and the essay. That way, the many blacks living in the city with bad education can have their potential measured better. Private schools are better than public ones, but not everyone can afford private schools. By measuring potential you can close that gap without shifting points.

Eventually we should get rid of Affirmative Acton, but I still think it is very important today.

Liberal thinking doesn't offend me. And I'm White.

I say we should keep Affirmative Action until we have a proportionate amount of minorities in management positions. In fact, it's not the minorities we really are trying to help. It's the impoverished people who would have gotten into college if they had had money spent on their school, instead of being dismissed with a snicker of "poverty gene" or something equally ridiculous. The majority of these people, due to the xenophobic properties of capitalism, are minorities. And yes, I have really heard the "poverty gene" argument.