NationStates Jolt Archive

By Glen Frank
Washington Foreign Service
Thursday, November 4, 2004; Page A44 (Al-Jazeera)

Nov. 3 -- Much of the world went to bed Tuesday night hoping and believing that John Kerry might win the White House but woke up Wednesday morning to find President Bush -- the most internationally unpopular American leader in decades -- on his way to a second term.

For many people outside the United States it was a dispiriting result that underscored the deep rift in policies and perceptions that has opened between the United States and many of its allies since Bush took office in January 2001.

"America has missed a great chance to reunite with the world," said Graham Allen, a member of the British Parliament from the ruling Labor Party. "I fear the tragedy for all of us is that if America doesn't reach out to its friends, then its enemies will reach out to America."

Political leaders in a handful of countries such as Russia, Italy, Britain and Israel were enthused by the result, analysts said. But the large numbers of people across the world who had dismissed the Bush administration as a one-term aberration that had come to office illegitimately were stunned to see the president win.

Poll after poll taken abroad showed sizable majorities opposed to Bush in virtually every country except Israel and Russia in a U.S. election that the world watched more closely than any in recent memory.

I, collectively with many other Germans I've talked with about the US elections, could only shake our heads in disbelief.

But then again, I am glad that there are still intelligent Americans left who did not adopt Bush's Texas-cowboy mentality yet:


Dear Dr. Kareem…

The results of this last U.S. presidential elections are truly disenchanting. The last four years were not marked by success, instead they are riddled with economic disaster, an unjust war, education and environmental policy disaster.

The international community must view the outcome as an incredible disappointment. Unfortunately, there seems to be little that would indicate a bright future ahead in the next four years. Instead, it seems plausible that the united states will continue to lose the faith of our allies and international partners.

There will be augmented political polarization and legislated morality. Ultimately, it is not only the American public that will pay the costs of Bush's unilateral and right wing policies, but also the rest of the world. for that, i am truly sorry.


S. A. from USA

http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/article_full_story.asp?service_id=5492

I, collectively with many other Germans I've talked with about the US elections, could only shake our heads in disbelief.

Don't you see that it was partly the contempt that Europeans hold Bush in that helped get him re-elected. If they had just bitten their tongue instead of running round calling Bush and Americans idiots, it might have been a very close election with a different result.

The condesending manner of the Guardian's letter writing campaign, coupled with the sneers of European intellectuals probably did more than anything else to win Bush the whitehouse.

Now for old times sake gigatron, call him "chimp" just one more time :)

We don't think other nations should interfere in our elections. Only we're allowed to interfere in other nations' elections. :)

:D Thats a classic...I want to put it in my sig

He remains a chimp. Unfortunately now 51% of the Americans deserve the title "chimps" aswell. My condolences for another 4 years of an inept administration. But it'll be good for Europe - it makes us stronger if America is burdened with a worthless president and a corrupt administration. Carry on.

Dave, that is a very poignant observation. And its funny how they said we should reach out to our allies, and then said that Israel, Russia, Italy, and the UK were happy about it. Who, precisely, does that leave? Japan? France? Germany? Yes, those are countries we have actively wooed over the years, and ones who have repeatedly shown that we could count on their support....

...The condesending manner of the Guardian's letter writing campaign, coupled with the sneers of European intellectuals probably did more than anything else to win Bush the whitehouse.

I hate typing...I love copy paste...

Some Liberal-Left Europeans were softly denouncing Bush Policies in Public...BUT secretely wished Bush to Stay at the White house...To finish the Job...they see him destroying the American empire...

Maybe the Guardian is Liberal-Left too...
...they did help Bush...just like Ossama did.

The Chimp is a uniter... :D

He remains a chimp. Unfortunately now 51% of the Americans deserve the title "chimps" aswell. My condolences for another 4 years of an inept administration. But it'll be good for Europe - it makes us stronger if America is burdened with a worthless president and a corrupt administration. Carry on.
Yes, funny how the stock market jumped and our unemployment rate (5.4%) pwns yours (10.1%). As well as our economic growth rate(4.5%), once again, pwning yours (1%). Looks like maybe you need a chimp too.

He remains a chimp. Unfortunately now 51% of the Americans deserve the title "chimps" aswell. My condolences for another 4 years of an inept administration. But it'll be good for Europe - it makes us stronger if America is burdened with a worthless president and a corrupt administration. Carry on.

Exactly how will Europe become stronger? If the US suffers economically, then the world suffers economicaly as the US is 30% of the world's economy.

However our economy is improving, the economy at the end of Bush's first term is the same as the economy was when Clinton left office. Remember Clinton was the man the Democrats believed to be so good for the US...

The stock market is up and maybe Bush will do more in his second term to strengthen the country financialy.

The only people I know who thought Bush returning was a good thing (in fact one person) was because he didnt like Kerry. Frankly I suspect strongly Blair cringed, I believe he was hoping for Kerry to win to save his own reputation, Bush is nothing but a source of embarrasment to Tony Blair and it could potentially cost him his leadership (not the election, cause hey we aint voting conservative!) Start taking bets on what country Bush invades next Iran, Syria? All the while ignoring the two real threats; North Korea and Israel/Palestine.
And the reasons why only Israel and Russia are happy? Well you guys fund Israel to the tune of $3 billion a year and Bush's ridculous policies justify Israel bombing the hell out of Palestinian homes and the Russians crushing Chechyna.

You cant look at Europe as a whole as its not one nation, certainly the UK economy is much healthier than the US with record employment levels.

Dont forget your $1 trillion defiect. There was a surplus when Clinton left.

Yes, funny how the stock market jumped and our unemployment rate (5.4%) pwns yours (10.1%). As well as our economic growth rate(4.5%), once again, pwning yours (1%). Looks like maybe you need a chimp too.
You forget that Germany is not Europe alone ;)

The stock markets jumped purely because of relief that the election was not going to drag on over weeks and months.

Dave, that is a very poignant observation. And its funny how they said we should reach out to our allies, and then said that Israel, Russia, Italy, and the UK were happy about it. Who, precisely, does that leave? Japan? France? Germany? Yes, those are countries we have actively wooed over the years, and ones who have repeatedly shown that we could count on their support....

I think the Europeans also overlooked that a great number of Americans do not want to live in a European style nation. America is not Europe, and a lot of people like it that way. Yet the European attitude seemed to be: "If you don't choose the kind of leader we would you must be idiots."

I don't honestly think that the vote for Bush, was actually anti-Europe per se, but was rather a reaction to the monsterous arrogance of the Europeans. Also, now other countries are calling for America to reach out. This after nine months of calling our President stupid and dangerous, and sneering at half the population of the US. Maybe they should try reaching out, that's usually how these things work.

I was heartily amused...

What actually makes it worse though, is that he even won the popular vote, by what 3 and a half mil? So you americans really do want him...

Oh well, it's a rather sad indictment on those that voted for him and therefore the representative majority of america and therefore of america and all americans I do not know personally.

Hmm lets see.. oil prices climbing, US dollar failing, Euro climbing (and replacing the US dollar as world currency) - peak oil being reached soon, not enough for China/US/Europe/Asia/etc. prediction: worldwide recession. Good future we have there.

Obviously Bush is a lover, not a fighter.

The only people I know who thought Bush returning was a good thing (in fact one person) was because he didnt like Kerry. Frankly I suspect strongly Blair cringed, I believe he was hoping for Kerry to win to save his own reputation, Bush is nothing but a source of embarrasment to Tony Blair and it could potentially cost him his leadership (not the election, cause hey we aint voting conservative!) Start taking bets on what country Bush invades next Iran, Syria? All the while ignoring the two real threats; North Korea and Israel/Palestine.
And the reasons why only Israel and Russia are happy? Well you guys fund Israel to the tune of $3 billion a year and Bush's ridculous policies justify Israel bombing the hell out of Palestinian homes and the Russians crushing Chechyna.

Now i might be mistaken on this but if North Korea is such a huge threat to the world why hasn't europe banded together to take care of them? Because obviously us americans don't know who the real threats are. you should just move all those troops the UN has stationed their into north korea and make the world a much safer place. Wait excluding the over 30000 troops the US has there excatley how many troops does the UN have over their?
Now it was my understanding that protecting south korea was an UN job wasn't it?

And your right those poor palastinians. They alway target only military targets with their brave suicide bombers. Remind me again what is the military value of a mall full of teenagers or a dance club or a bus full of old people?

Exactly how will Europe become stronger? If the US suffers economically, then the world suffers economicaly as the US is 30% of the world's economy.

However our economy is improving, the economy at the end of Bush's first term is the same as the economy was when Clinton left office. Remember Clinton was the man the Democrats believed to be so good for the US...

The stock market is up and maybe Bush will do more in his second term to strengthen the country financialy.

LOL yeah, like increasing the budget deficit, the national debt and the goverment spending. Oh it's going to be a beautiful sight to see when Bush has to face his creditors and will be forced to cut spending on every branch of the budget just to keep the country from going bankrupt.

Tax cuts work and are excellent for the economy. But if the goverment spends like there's no tomorrow and keeps asking for loans to finance it's policies the economy will implode.

What you are seeing now is the immediate effect to the tax cuts and the goverment spending it's money into the economy. What you'll see later is the goverment looking for anything to satisfy it's creditors. That interesting enough most are from Asia.

I honestly never thought I would live to see the day that the US would crumble, but with the US in the brink of economical implotion and covered in global infamy, and China becoming by far the fastest growing economy in the world, I think we are witnesses of the beginning of what was thought to be imposible.

I personally have little problem with there being a Republican president, I understand Ruddy Guiliani may run next time, and id be happy to see him in charge. The problem with Bush is that he showed no interest in the opinion of Euro nations, ignoring the UN, he managed to turn nothing but goodwill after 9/11 into the worst international relations the US has ever had. Besides in the mainstream media no opinion on who was wanted to win the election anyway, obviously people express there views but there was no mass media campaign.

also remember the economic policies set by W today will not realy show up for 3-4 years
hence you inharit the last admin.'s problems

LOL yeah, like increasing the budget deficit, the national debt and the goverment spending. Oh it's going to be a beautiful sight to see when Bush has to face his creditors and will be forced to cut spending on every branch of the budget just to keep the country from going bankrupt.

Tax cuts work and are excellent for the economy. But if the goverment spends like there's no tomorrow and keeps asking for loans to finance it's policies the economy will implode.

What you are seeing now is the immediate effect to the tax cuts and the goverment spending it's money into the economy. What you'll see later is the goverment looking for anything to satisfy it's creditors. That interesting enough most are from Asia.

I honestly never thought I would live to see the day that the US would crumble, but with the US in the brink of economical implotion and covered in global infamy, and China becoming by far the fastest growing economy in the world, I think we are witnesses of the beginning of what was thought to be imposible.


Actually, the US treasury has bucketloads of money. However, remember that these right-wing nut-job republicans can only really see about 5 minutes into the future. Uncontrolled spending and blowing up third-world countries may (or may not) sound great right now, but in the long run, the US is doomed.

.. Also, now other countries are calling for America to reach out...actually... " Political Leaders are calling for Washington to reach out"...They always do, every election, Its called diplomacy.

Now i might be mistaken on this but if North Korea is such a huge threat to the world why hasn't europe banded together to take care of them? Because obviously us americans don't know who the real threats are. you should just move all those troops the UN has stationed their into north korea and make the world a much safer place. Wait excluding the over 30000 troops the US has there excatley how many troops does the UN have over their?
Now it was my understanding that protecting south korea was an UN job wasn't it?

And your right those poor palastinians. They alway target only military targets with their brave suicide bombers. Remind me again what is the military value of a mall full of teenagers or a dance club or a bus full of old people?

Israel exists on top of occupied land, land the UN had passed countless resolutions on but are vetoed by the US. If a foreign nation took over your home didnt let you live freely, perscuted you and denied your nations right to exist, what would you do?

Why does dealing with a problem need troops? Sending troops into NK would be a disaster. Talks are the only option. The EU has made efforts on the matter in fact.

Go Bush. w00t.

LOL yeah, like increasing the budget deficit, the national debt and the goverment spending. Oh it's going to be a beautiful sight to see when Bush has to face his creditors and will be forced to cut spending on every branch of the budget just to keep the country from going bankrupt.

Tax cuts work and are excellent for the economy. But if the goverment spends like there's no tomorrow and keeps asking for loans to finance it's policies the economy will implode.

What you are seeing now is the immediate effect to the tax cuts and the goverment spending it's money into the economy. What you'll see later is the goverment looking for anything to satisfy it's creditors. That interesting enough most are from Asia.

I honestly never thought I would live to see the day that the US would crumble, but with the US in the brink of economical implotion and covered in global infamy, and China becoming by far the fastest growing economy in the world, I think we are witnesses of the beginning of what was thought to be imposible.

Having a budget deficit is very common during times of war, the Reagan Adminstration created a deficit far larger than Bush's, but in return we saw the fall of the Soviet Union. Did the economy not completely bounce back?

The US crumble? Show me one point in American history where the economy went down and never bounced back?

Actually, the US treasury has bucketloads of money. However, remember that these right-wing nut-job republicans can only really see about 5 minutes into the future. Uncontrolled spending and blowing up third-world countries may (or may not) sound great right now, but in the long run, the US is doomed.

However if the US uses all of it's treasury money into paying debts the results will be as catastrophic as cutting down spending on all branchs of the budget, so either way it's doom.

The funny thing is that they still believe all that "economic measures take up to 4 years to show their results" theory, as a result of media misinformation.

The funny thing is that they still believe all that "economic measures take up to 4 years to show their results" theory, as a result of media misinformation.
It's not so much "media misinformation" as it is "the consensus of nearly every published economist."

Having a budget deficit is very common during times of war, the Reagan Adminstration created a deficit far larger than Bush's, but in return we saw the fall of the Soviet Union. Did the economy not completely bounce back?

The US crumble? Show me one point in American history where the economy went down and never bounced back?

Reagan wasnt involved in a full blown war as the US is currently in, so goverment spending just doesn't compare, just like the national debt not being as large and growing as fast at Reagan's period as it is now. So pick another period for comparition... oh ya, there isn't one! :P

So just don't compare it. 1929 will be nothing compared to what's coming up.

Funny that Gigatron should remark that Germany becomes stronger at America's expense. In a twisted way, s/he's right. It's all because of one gigantic VOLUNTARY sacrifice on the part of the US that Germany ever experienced what's been referred to as the "Wirtschazwunder" over there. It was called the Marshall Plan. And this is how the Schröderian frauds thank us. They squander it on a wasteful, counterproductive "social net", try to boost their own pathetic egos by fancying themselves the new Soviet Union and turn to Naziesque dictators like Saddam Hussein to ease their economic pain now that the magic money of the Marshall Plan is beginning to run out. Some "allies."

As regards Burnzonia, I have one word for his/her snotty comments about Russia: B-e-s-l-a-n. I'm pretty convinced that's what turned Putin to Bush's side. Enough run-ins with REAL baby killers tends to knock some sense into the noggin. On Israel, Burnzonia can chew on the words of Martin Luther King Jr. for good measure:

"You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews. You are merely anti-Zionist. And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountaintops. Let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews. This is God's own truth...And what exactly is anti-Zionism? It is the systematic denial of a fundamental right which we justly claim for the peoples of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the globe to the Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is anti-Semitism. Let my words echo through the depths of your soul. When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews. Make no mistake about it."

However if the US uses all of it's treasury money into paying debts the results will be as catastrophic as ...My Finance Analyst keeps telling to pay My debts first...pls explain why is it not the same for the any State?

I honestly never thought I would live to see the day that the US would crumble, but with the US in the brink of economical implotion and covered in global infamy, and China becoming by far the fastest growing economy in the world, I think we are witnesses of the beginning of what was thought to be imposible.

You know the thing that bothers me the most is that lets say you correct, and the US falls flat on its face. Our uncontrolled spending has gotten us in a whole so deep we couldn't possibly get out. Where is Europe going to be when we need them? Will they sit by and watch us disinitgrate going "we told you so" Or will they remeber all the times we've been there for them. Will they remeber the $13 billion dollars spent rebuilding Europe with the marshall plan? Will they remeber our soldiers helping keep back the soviets? Will the remeber the hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives lost helping free it of tranny? Will they be there to help pick us up off of our feet, or will we be left to stuggle alone.

Tsk tsk... the Americans seem to consider "alliance" to be unconditional servitude. Not with us. Do your illegal wars alone. We don't want terrorism here. (Spain got what it deserved).

You know the thing that bothers me the most is that lets say you correct, and the US falls flat on its face. Our uncontrolled spending has gotten us in a whole so deep we couldn't possibly get out. Where is Europe going to be when we need them? Will they sit by and watch us disinitgrate going "we told you so" Or will they remeber all the times we've been there for them. Will they remeber the $13 billion dollars spent rebuilding Europe with the marshall plan? Will they remeber our soldiers helping keep back the soviets? Will the remeber the hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives lost helping free it of tranny? Will they be there to help pick us up off of our feet, or will we be left to stuggle alone.
You aren't struggling. The problem is though, you are going to be struggling because of your messing up the world and sticking your nose in everything where it doesnt belong. It is entirely your own fault if the U.S. overburdens itself. Only a complete collapse may cure it of it's disease, just like our own collapse cured ours.

.. In a twisted way, s/he's right. It's all because of one gigantic VOLUNTARY sacrifice on the part of the US that Germany ever experienced what's been referred to as the "Wirtschazwunder"....Guess what Country Profiteered most in WWII...

UK?, Russia?, France?

The Israellies are just as bad or worse than the Palestinians. I am by no means anti jew. Sorting it would end the single biggest recruitment tool for global terrorism.
Fair enough about Beslan, id forgetten about that, though the Chenchyn war has been going for years.

Tsk tsk... the Americans seem to consider "alliance" to be unconditional servitude. Not with us. Do your illegal wars alone. We don't want terrorism here. (Spain got what it deserved).

Who said that.

Anyway, now you've failed to oust bush, shouldn't be turning your attention to gerhard schroder. And isn't he in trouble for child abduction or something?

Guess what Country Profiteered most in WWII...

UK?, Russia?, France?

France, they managed to sell to both sides at the same time.

It's not so much "media misinformation" as it is "the consensus of nearly every published economist."

Lets see, Stock market, unemployment rate, economical growth responds to events that may favor invesment, tax cuts, goverment spending into country almost immediatly it doesn't take years for that to happend. You might be right in the fact that the backlash of it's measures might take a couple of years because some of the loans become executable in a couple of years, but saying that the all the effects of an economic policy take years and years before you see anything is misleading.

France, they managed to sell to both sides at the same time.

Ah...Yes, you mortal enemies the French. :rolleyes:

My Finance Analyst keeps telling to pay My debts first...pls explain why is it not the same for the any State?
Ideally a state should do the same, however, there are many differences between a country and a person. For example, as a person you are generally accepting others offers for say a loan, but a country such as the USA (not true for all countries) offers finances their deficit mainly through bonds, which are offered on the terms of the debtor nation.

Who said that.

Anyway, now you've failed to oust bush, shouldn't be turning your attention to gerhard schroder. And isn't he in trouble for child abduction or something?
I didnt elect Schröder. I don't like him. There's no suitable alternative though, so he's the best we got atm. Schröder/Merkel is just like Kerry/Bush. Nothing overly exciting. And I vote for neither :P

(Anyways, our own elections are in 2006. And I am definitely not gonna vote for Schröder - never did, never will. But I'll also never vote for the conservatives.)

Just read a report that says the defiect is $10.8 trillion

Reagan wasnt involved in a full blown war as the US is currently in, so goverment spending just doesn't compare, just like the national debt not being as large and growing as fast at Reagan's period as it is now. So pick another period for comparition... oh ya, there isn't one! :P

So just don't compare it. 1929 will be nothing compared to what's coming up.

Your joking right? Fighting communism and supporting democracies in Chile, Haiti, Panama, Bolivia, Honduras, Argentina, Grenada, El Salvador, Uruguay, Brazil, Guatemala, and the Phillipines don't count right?

Oh and the Soviet Union withdrawing from a puppet regime for the first time in it's history in Afghanistan means nothing. Increasing the military budget twice the amount also doesn't count as fighting a war.

While we never physically fought the Soviet Union in a war, we did fight and beat them in a cold war.

LoL, another Great Depression? I doubt it. :rolleyes:

Easy way to pay off a good portion of US debt: Cut welfare for a few years.

Just read a report that says the defiect is $10.8 trillion

The US deficit is not $10,8 trillion. That would mean the budget for 2004 would be around $12.5 trillion, which is larger than the entire national economy.

Having a budget deficit is very common during times of war, the Reagan Adminstration created a deficit far larger than Bush's, but in return we saw the fall of the Soviet Union. Did the economy not completely bounce back?

The US crumble? Show me one point in American history where the economy went down and never bounced back?

Well, ya see, when those crippling deficits were ramped up by the Reagan Admin THEY REPEALED THEIR TAX CUTS. Reagan gave one huge cut at the beginning of his term and ended up raising them around 4 times after they realized they were running into financial trouble. No wonder Bush Sr. called it
'Voodoo Economics". Careless tax cuts are dangerous. Echoed years later when Bush Sr. went back on his own word to cut taxes. There was a war. Money was being spent. You need money from taxes. 'Tax and Spend' may be a common conservative insult towards liberals buts its ironic that YOU MUST SPEND ONLY WHAT YOU GET THROUGH TAXES. Otherwise we get massive deficits.

As for the US crumbling, no one can give an example since it hasn't happened since someone down the line had enough sense to RAISE taxes. Bush Jr. wants to make the cuts permanent. Be afraid.

You are very ill-informed on the end of communism in Russia as well. Most of the work was done by European countries. Reagan grabbed all the credit with that 'tear down this wall' speech. The wall was slated for destruction well before Reagan said that speech by the admission of Russian officials. And then there is the fact that Russia was running out of money anyway and it would have collapsed on its own soon enough. The massive military buildup we forced it into just made it hit bankruptcy harder, leading to a lot of the problems we see in Russia today, like the terrorists (who have acted up quite a bit since Russia hasn't enough to support its own military which it would otherwise use to suppress them).

I'm sure others here could add more.

Are you idiots serious?

You have no right to say anything about America because you don't live here. You're just an outer-ring of idiots whose economy doesn't even stand near the United States.

Not only is Bush the first president to take terrorism seriously but Vice-President Cheyney is one of the smartest human beings in politics.

How can you countries like Germany, have any say in American government. We've destroyed your country 2 times in our history but now you're nothing but America's bitch. You guys aren't even allowed to have an army larger than 100,000 people. A country that has been run by Adolf Hitler who innocently murdered 10,000,000 Jews.

How can countries like France, possibly even say a word. Your country has been saved immense number of times by the United States. Who freed you from German rule you little pansies, huh? Who went to Vietnam because you pansies got overrun by the NVA and the VC. Knowing that, you little sissies didn't even bother helping us in Iraq. Do you even know why Chirac didn't help us? Because Saddam Hussein gave him 2 of the finest oil fields in Iraq. Your country is disgusting and unthankful.

Our economy went down because of President Clinton, not because of Bush. President Bush is currently raising jobs and economy at a historical rate.

We suffered 8 terrorist attacks during Clinton's presidency and we did nothing about it. We welcomed terrorists to attack us on 9/11,

How can you even say that America is a country full of war mongers? How long did we wait until we attacked Germany during World War 2? When we invaded Normandy in 1944 almost 25,000,000 had already died. This is why you cant trust Islamic nations. You little poor countries don't know anything about Islamic radicals and terrorism because you're worth nothing to them. Why is it that the worlds strongest countries all have a problem with terrorism? How about Russia's problem with Chechnya and Afghanistan? How about Israels problem with Palestine? How about Indias problem with Pakistan?

All of you little countries that are worth nothing should just keep your mouth shut, because if your country had any sort of power what so ever, you would be doing your jobs as well.

Israel exists on top of occupied land, land the UN had passed countless resolutions on but are vetoed by the US. If a foreign nation took over your home didnt let you live freely, perscuted you and denied your nations right to exist, what would you do?

Why does dealing with a problem need troops? Sending troops into NK would be a disaster. Talks are the only option. The EU has made efforts on the matter in fact.

Yes Israel is on occupied land. Land the Brits gave to both sides. Well done. Anyways What would i do. Hum well if i were in the same position i would target enemy soldiers. You know the guys with guns. I wouldn't be targeting 12 year olds that just want to go see a movie. I wouldn't be targeting a mother with her child who just went shopping, I wouldn't target senior citizens on their way out to a market. I don't care what your reasoning is if your targeting these kinds of people you are evil. There is no excuse. People like that don't deserve pity. No they deserve death.

North Korea: Yes talking is nice. The EU is talking, The US is talking China is talking, japan is talking. Everyone has been talking. They've been talking since the 1980's. What as this gotten us. North korea continues to make nukes, they continue to sell information, and the continue to be ver very militant. They've gotten to the point where they play the game real well. They push and push until the world reacts. Then they make a stand off about it, and when the world offeres them incentives they back off for a little while only to repeat the cycle a little while later. How long would you let them play this game?

Are you idiots serious?

You have no right to say anything about America because you don't live here. You're just an outer-ring of idiots whose economy doesn't even stand near the United States.

Not only is Bush the first president to take terrorism seriously but Vice-President Cheyney is one of the smartest human beings in politics.

How can you countries like Germany, have any say in American government. We've destroyed your country 2 times in our history but now you're nothing but America's bitch. You guys aren't even allowed to have an army larger than 100,000 people. A country that has been run by Adolf Hitler who innocently murdered 10,000,000 Jews.

How can countries like France, possibly even say a word. Your country has been saved immense number of times by the United States. Who freed you from German rule you little pansies, huh? Who went to Vietnam because you pansies got overrun by the NVA and the VC. Knowing that, you little sissies didn't even bother helping us in Iraq. Do you even know why Chirac didn't help us? Because Saddam Hussein gave him 2 of the finest oil fields in Iraq. Your country is disgusting and unthankful.

Our economy went down because of President Clinton, not because of Bush. President Bush is currently raising jobs and economy at a historical rate.

We suffered 8 terrorist attacks during Clinton's presidency and we did nothing about it. We welcomed terrorists to attack us on 9/11,

How can you even say that America is a country full of war mongers? How long did we wait until we attacked Germany during World War 2? When we invaded Normandy in 1944 almost 25,000,000 had already died. This is why you cant trust Islamic nations. You little poor countries don't know anything about Islamic radicals and terrorism because you're worth nothing to them. Why is it that the worlds strongest countries all have a problem with terrorism? How about Russia's problem with Chechnya and Afghanistan? How about Israels problem with Palestine? How about Indias problem with Pakistan?

All of you little countries that are worth nothing should just keep your mouth shut, because if your country had any sort of power what so ever, you would be doing your jobs as well.
Firstly, our military is already larger than 100.000, secondly, Germany is not America's bitch (though some people here are, the German's as a whole are not). Thirdly, 10.000.000 is a little overexaggerated. Try 6 million or so. Let's not warm up "ancient history" again because then you got enough murders to be ashamed of yourself.

Fourthly, we don't like it if you make a mess in front of our doorsteps. If you mess up the middle east, you fix it. No money, no soldiers, nothing from us. We didn't destroy it, we don't pay for it. Deal with it.

Our economy went down because of President Clinton, not because of Bush. President Bush is currently raising jobs and economy at a historical rate.


Ill ignore the rest and point to Bush being the only President to end a term in office with less jobs than when he started.

As I said above the Israel thing they are as bad as each other, palestinians are made to look evil, but then the Israelies bulldoze homes etc. I guess my original point was badly worded.

Problem with NK is what happens if you attack a country that had nukes? Wanna take that chance?

Not only is Bush the first president to take terrorism seriously but Vice-President Cheyney is one of the smartest human beings in politics.


Dick Cheny is human?? I thought he was some sort of evil Haliburton robot or Zombie Lord or something..............

Your joking right? Fighting communism and supporting democracies in Chile, Haiti, Panama, Bolivia, Honduras, Argentina, Grenada, El Salvador, Uruguay, Brazil, Guatemala, and the Phillipines don't count right?

Oh and the Soviet Union withdrawing from a puppet regime for the first time in it's history in Afghanistan means nothing. Increasing the military budget twice the amount also doesn't count as fighting a war.

While we never physically fought the Soviet Union in a war, we did fight and beat them in a cold war.

LoL, another Great Depression? I doubt it. :rolleyes:

Eek, start reading the history of Chile, Haiti, Panama, Bolivia, Honduras, Argentina, Grenada, El Salvador, Uruguay, Brazil, Guatemala, and the Phillipines and you'll see something interesting about most of them, throughout the 70's and 80's most of them where ruled by dictators or autocratic "democratic" goverments, supported all by the US administration. But besides that...

The immediate goverment spending related to the efforts of overthrowing the soviets during the Reagan period is NOTHING compared to the cost of the Iraq invation and ocupation, not to mention the cost of the Afghanistan war and the current military spending of over 400 billion dollars.

So check your numbers again... selling weapons and giving tactical support to 3rd world regimes by no means compare to a war that costs 1 billion dollars a day.

Our economy went down because of President Clinton, not because of Bush. President Bush is currently raising jobs and economy at a historical rate.

2+2=5? :D

Firstly, our military is already larger than 100.000, secondly, Germany is not America's bitch (though some people here are, the German's as a whole are not). Thirdly, 10.000.000 is a little overexaggerated. Try 6 million or so. Let's not warm up "ancient history" again because then you got enough murders to be ashamed of yourself.

Fourthly, we don't like it if you make a mess in front of our doorsteps. If you mess up the middle east, you fix it. No money, no soldiers, nothing from us. We didn't destroy it, we don't pay for it. Deal with it.

No-one has as much blood on their hands as germany. (in the wast at least), so stop pretending there is some kind of equivalence between the US and german history.

No-ones saying the US is perfect, but come on to say its no better than the country that gave us Word War I, and world war II, really now, let's be realistic.

Now i might be mistaken on this but if North Korea is such a huge threat to the world why hasn't europe banded together to take care of them? Because obviously us americans don't know who the real threats are. you should just move all those troops the UN has stationed their into north korea and make the world a much safer place. Wait excluding the over 30000 troops the US has there excatley how many troops does the UN have over their?
Now it was my understanding that protecting south korea was an UN job wasn't it?

And your right those poor palastinians. They alway target only military targets with their brave suicide bombers. Remind me again what is the military value of a mall full of teenagers or a dance club or a bus full of old people?

Excellent Point........people always pointing fingers.......telling us what to do.....thousands coming to our shores annually for a better life........our fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters spilling their blood for others.......who is the real chimp oh I mean chump......if only those in the rest of the world would stop and take stock of all the good that has been done by America for the rest of the world........open their minds to the greater good......leave all the selfishness behind..........raise their standards for liberty and justice, (not just for personal gratification, make a sacrifice for others)............Then MAYBE then, the world could begin to become a better place........A world united against hate and terrorism based of petty differences; religion, skin color, language, sex, preferance (yep, even that), and a host of other moot points.......First we must all be aware of our own discriminations but not blinded by our guilt or tolerance.......We must take a stand when a stand is due........look to ourselves, find the hero, the crusader, and crush any who would stand against the banner of liberty and humanity......Tough decisions must be made, yet perfection cannot be expected...rather the expectation of a better world for all mankind through the sacrifice and dedication of each individual in their own way to acheive such a lofty ideal.
Rob

No-one has as much blood on their hands as germany. (in the wast at least), so stop pretending there is some kind of equivalence between the US and german history.

No-ones saying the US is perfect, but come on to say its no better than the country that gave us Word War I, and world war II, really now, let's be realistic.
As I said, warming up "ancient" history is pointless. The Germany today has learned from it's history. The US have not. WW1 and WW2 werenot only due to Germany. There were many historical events which resulted in both wars, of which Germany was just one party. Trying to put the blame solely on Germany will not work with me. I accept that this part of our history sucked, we got over it. End of story.

What I see the US doing today however is avoidable and just requires some human brain, which GWB obviously sorely lacks.

Quite a few of you are well mis-informed.

To the German retard:

Try visiting the holocaust museum in Israel, it's much higher than 6 million. Second, your country is the definition of America's bitch. Not only does 75% of your economy even live off of the U.S. but your military can't act on shit without our approval.

To Burzonia:

Aside from being a liberal dip-shit, you still have no idea that Islamic people are born with a hate for Jews. Israel did not steal any land from them, they were given to them by Britain. Second we didn't throw out Palestinians nor did we kill them. Palestinians declared a civil war against the Jews, and guess who won? THE JEWS. So don't give me any of that stupid muslim loving bullshit that it's the Jew's fault.

Thankfully now that Bush was re-elected there won't be no stupid little bitch talks with North Korea like it has been for the past 10 years. We are finally going to act against Kim Jong Il.

To the rest:

Most of you are idiotic children who don't even have the right to vote, let alone you aren't citizens of the greatest country in the world, The United States of America. Your opinions don't count therefore shut the fuck up. Your parents would die to live in the United States, maybe you should start asking them why?

The mods will come for you sooner or later. Enjoy your stay while it lasts. Bye.

Israel exists on top of occupied land, land the UN had passed countless resolutions on but are vetoed by the US. If a foreign nation took over your home didnt let you live freely, perscuted you and denied your nations right to exist, what would you do?

Why does dealing with a problem need troops? Sending troops into NK would be a disaster. Talks are the only option. The EU has made efforts on the matter in fact.

Acctually, Israel won land in war, much the same as all other nations at one point or another......Israel also deserves the right to exist, does it not? Palistine was given all they wanted in a very contriversial offer made by the israli gov. yet, they wouldnt take it.....why? That is simple, and is much like the hate that America has been getting from a certain segment of the world..........THEY HATE ISRAEL AND WILL NOT STOP THEIR FIGHT UNTIL THEY HAVE DESTROYED OUR ABSORBED ALL OF ISRAEL. Do not be fooled by their whining and complaining.......they simply HATE them women children old folks and all and would kill them all given the chance. And yes..sometimes troops are the only answer (or at least some form of war). You can not expect a morally defunct leader or government to keep its word therefore you cannot simply ask them to play nice......get it?
Rob

Yes George Bush definetly lacks a brain, yet he was once again re-elected at a historal amount of votes.

Go ahead, I dare you to say Americans are stupid. Oh yeah, you can't.

Now i might be mistaken on this but if North Korea is such a huge threat to the world why hasn't europe banded together to take care of them?

One of Clintons best Acomplishement was Keeping the NK issue under controll...with the Fuel program...

The first thing the Chimp did when he took the white house: he Scraped the Program (just because it was a testament to Clinton acomplishement)...

By doing that...the chimp opened the NK PandoraBox...

Lately the Repubs wishfull thinking is that "China is going to fix it for us"....

Ita, your wishfull thinking is that Europe is going to fix it for Bush?...keep dreaming boy...keep dreaming...

Are you idiots serious?

You have no right to say anything about America because you don't live here. You're just an outer-ring of idiots whose economy doesn't even stand near the United States.

Not only is Bush the first president to take terrorism seriously but Vice-President Cheyney is one of the smartest human beings in politics.

How can you countries like Germany, have any say in American government. We've destroyed your country 2 times in our history but now you're nothing but America's bitch. You guys aren't even allowed to have an army larger than 100,000 people. A country that has been run by Adolf Hitler who innocently murdered 10,000,000 Jews.

How can countries like France, possibly even say a word. Your country has been saved immense number of times by the United States. Who freed you from German rule you little pansies, huh? Who went to Vietnam because you pansies got overrun by the NVA and the VC. Knowing that, you little sissies didn't even bother helping us in Iraq. Do you even know why Chirac didn't help us? Because Saddam Hussein gave him 2 of the finest oil fields in Iraq. Your country is disgusting and unthankful.

Our economy went down because of President Clinton, not because of Bush. President Bush is currently raising jobs and economy at a historical rate.

We suffered 8 terrorist attacks during Clinton's presidency and we did nothing about it. We welcomed terrorists to attack us on 9/11,

How can you even say that America is a country full of war mongers? How long did we wait until we attacked Germany during World War 2? When we invaded Normandy in 1944 almost 25,000,000 had already died. This is why you cant trust Islamic nations. You little poor countries don't know anything about Islamic radicals and terrorism because you're worth nothing to them. Why is it that the worlds strongest countries all have a problem with terrorism? How about Russia's problem with Chechnya and Afghanistan? How about Israels problem with Palestine? How about Indias problem with Pakistan?

All of you little countries that are worth nothing should just keep your mouth shut, because if your country had any sort of power what so ever, you would be doing your jobs as well.

take a chill pill buddy! i'm an american and i despise George w.Bush! yes Cheyney's smart very smart (i ain't asamed to admit it) however he is not the one in charge a cowboy jockey is and buddy, america may be great but it is NOT more important than the rest of the world nor more powerful! Adolf Hitler thought that germany was and he got taken down you need to learn respect for the world!

As I said, warming up "ancient" history is pointless. The Germany today has learned from it's history. The US have not. WW1 and WW2 werenot only due to Germany. There were many historical events which resulted in both wars, of which Germany was just one party. Trying to put the blame solely on Germany will not work with me. I accept that this part of our history sucked, we got over it. End of story.

What I see the US doing today however is avoidable and just requires some human brain, which GWB obviously sorely lacks.


Oh no. World war II was all Germany. There is no way to escape that one my friend, or are you still blaming the "Jewish Bankers".

What's more, I don't want to debate history, I agree with you that it is over and done with, I was just pointing out that it's not fair to compare the history of the US and Germany. You have to admit that germany's record was far worse.

And for the record. World War I was mostly germany too.

Yes George Bush definetly lacks a brain, yet he was once again re-elected at a historal amount of votes.

Go ahead, I dare you to say Americans are stupid. Oh yeah, you can't.

do ya mean historical? yes i can say that we americans are stupid and umm. more people are around and voting then there were say 20 years ago (or even 4) so stfu

Funny that Gigatron should remark that Germany becomes stronger at America's expense. In a twisted way, s/he's right. It's all because of one gigantic VOLUNTARY sacrifice on the part of the US that Germany ever experienced what's been referred to as the "Wirtschazwunder" over there. It was called the Marshall Plan. And this is how the Schröderian frauds thank us. They squander it on a wasteful, counterproductive "social net", try to boost their own pathetic egos by fancying themselves the new Soviet Union and turn to Naziesque dictators like Saddam Hussein to ease their economic pain now that the magic money of the Marshall Plan is beginning to run out. Some "allies."

As regards Burnzonia, I have one word for his/her snotty comments about Russia: B-e-s-l-a-n. I'm pretty convinced that's what turned Putin to Bush's side. Enough run-ins with REAL baby killers tends to knock some sense into the noggin. On Israel, Burnzonia can chew on the words of Martin Luther King Jr. for good measure:

"You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews. You are merely anti-Zionist. And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountaintops. Let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews. This is God's own truth...And what exactly is anti-Zionism? It is the systematic denial of a fundamental right which we justly claim for the peoples of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the globe to the Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is anti-Semitism. Let my words echo through the depths of your soul. When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews. Make no mistake about it."

:D perfect :fluffle: lovin it!
Rob

Oh no. World war II was all Germany. There is no way to escape that one my friend, or are you still blaming the "Jewish Bankers".

What's more, I don't want to debate history, I agree with you that it is over and done with, I was just pointing out that it's not fair to compare the history of the US and Germany. You have to admit that germany's record was far worse.

And for the record. World War I was mostly germany too.

no WWI was an Austrian prince and a hungarian patriot, (or the other way around) that sparked that war but yah it was germany in WWII

We don't think other nations should interfere in our elections. Only we're allowed to interfere in other nations' elections.
So true, so true. Here's my addition to this.
If the United States of America or Britain is having elections, they don't ask for observers from Africa or from Asia. But when we have elections, they want observers.
Nelson Mandela
And on Israel/Palestine, what the hell was Britain doing giving away land that other people were living on??? That's so unbelievably presumptuous and shortsighted...

http://www.deathcamps.info/FAQ.htm

6 million seems to be the generally accepted number, (rounded up)

America has never once in it's history relied on Europe to do anything because its filled with a bunch of skitzophrenic nations who are powerless.

First of all Clintons program did not work, retard.

North Korea continued their nuclear program even during his Presidency.

President Bush isn't going to sit here like the pussy that Jacques Chirac is and wait for another country to be a victim of terrorist threats. The problem is Kim Jong Il is lying to all of you morons in Europe and you're all buying it. At this point he probably has up to 5-10 nukes, maybe more.

I think with Iraq you've already learned that America isn't a pussy like some of you other European countries.

Why is it that the strongest countries militarily and economically are the ones that are doing anything about this.

Theres 5 nations right now who know what they are doing.

The United States of America
Great Britian (The only country who we have helped and like good people they always help America. England has 100% of my respect)
Israel
Russia (The country that finally woke up with everything going on)

Now you people in Germany, France, and other small worthless nations go ahead and say something. You can't because all of these countries are superior to yours in every way. So you keep your little whiney country, who no one even listens to in the U.N. and stfu.

Oh no. World war II was all Germany. There is no way to escape that one my friend, or are you still blaming the "Jewish Bankers".

What's more, I don't want to debate history, I agree with you that it is over and done with, I was just pointing out that it's not fair to compare the history of the US and Germany. You have to admit that germany's record was far worse.

And for the record. World War I was mostly germany too.
No to WW 1 and No to WW 2. Europe back then was poised to do WW1 and WW2 was a logical consequence of the Versailles Treaty. I don't blame the Jews at all, but the entire geo-political climate in Europe during the 19th and early 20th century.

do ya mean historical? yes i can say that we americans are stupid and umm. more people are around and voting then there were say 20 years ago (or even 4) so stfu

Yeah Americans are definetly stupid. I mean aside from the fact that we're richer than your 3rd world country. The fact that we're the most technologically advanced country. The fact that we're economically stronger than almost any nation.

I won't even bother argueing that.

The only reason why you find Americans stupid is because your envious little bitches.

Fourthly, we don't like it if you make a mess in front of our doorsteps. If you mess up the middle east, you fix it. No money, no soldiers, nothing from us. We didn't destroy it, we don't pay for it. Deal with it.

That right there is best statement to characterize Europian opinion. Europe fights for stability, and nothing more. Not Human rights (as the once promised they would), not freedom, not justice, simply stability. It gives a real "if it doesn't effect us it doesn't matter' attitude. This can be shone in Korea. Because we were fighting not only the russian backed North Koreans but the Chinese as well the helped put forces in korea, but when that threat passed they moved their troops. While the Americans stayed protecting South Korea even today. Neither the US nor Europe lose anything if north korea takes south korea, but look who's still there.

Tsk tsk... the Americans seem to consider "alliance" to be unconditional servitude. Not with us. Do your illegal wars alone. We don't want terrorism here. (Spain got what it deserved).

Spain got what it deserved! Who the @#$*! are you to say that!! Wait maybe you would like to carry a bomb to some public place..hide it so no one can see it....maybe even set up a remote video camera so you can watch as all the innocent people are blown to bits.......YOU ARE A SICK AND TWISTED WORTHLESS EXCUSE FOR A HUMAN BEING......A GD TERRORIST AT HEART!!!
ROB
:upyours:

unless of course you jest.........but that would still be a sick joke.

President Bush isn't going to sit here like the pussy that Jacques Chirac is and wait for another country to be a victim of terrorist threats. The problem is Kim Jong Il is lying to all of you morons in Europe and you're all buying it. At this point he probably has up to 5-10 nukes, maybe more.

I think with Iraq you've already learned that America isn't a pussy like some of you other European countries.


right we just charge blindly in, with no plan which is a lot better. yes and those pansy russians who single-handedly (with some cash) drove the germans back from their borders and into germany itself the wusses learn yur history before you diss other countries buddy. (yes the russians were against the war in iraq an have not helped one jot.

America has never once in it's history relied on Europe to do anything because its filled with a bunch of skitzophrenic nations who are powerless.

First of all Clintons program did not work, retard.

North Korea continued their nuclear program even during his Presidency.

President Bush isn't going to sit here like the pussy that Jacques Chirac is and wait for another country to be a victim of terrorist threats. The problem is Kim Jong Il is lying to all of you morons in Europe and you're all buying it. At this point he probably has up to 5-10 nukes, maybe more.

I think with Iraq you've already learned that America isn't a pussy like some of you other European countries.

Why is it that the strongest countries militarily and economically are the ones that are doing anything about this.

Theres 5 nations right now who know what they are doing.

The United States of America
Great Britian (The only country who we have helped and like good people they always help America. England has 100% of my respect)
Israel
Russia (The country that finally woke up with everything going on)

Now you people in Germany, France, and other small worthless nations go ahead and say something. You can't because all of these countries are superior to yours in every way. So you keep your little whiney country, who no one even listens to in the U.N. and stfu.


On behalf of Great Britain, i'd just like to chime in by saying - http://www.stopwar.org.uk

(many of us find the opinions and attitudes of people like yourself deeply offensive. you have 0% of England's respect. Even supporters of the war find such inflamatory posturing distastefull)

Yeah Americans are definetly stupid. I mean aside from the fact that we're richer than your 3rd world country. The fact that we're the most technologically advanced country. The fact that we're economically stronger than almost any nation.

I won't even bother argueing that.

The only reason why you find Americans stupid is because your envious little bitches.

no i am an american! fyi i live in Gresham,Oregon (next to Portland on a map.)
everyone but 3rd world countries are richer than 3rd world countries (that's why they are considered 3rd world countries ya moron.) i dunno 'bout us being most technologically advanced (Japan?) and like 3 countries have higher average incomes (in Europe.) so i believe your wrong.

First of all fat tits, I made no regards towards Russia at all. It is one of the few nations I respect. When I mention European nations I'm talking little bitch nations, mainly France. By the way, Russia is now helping against terrorism after the attack in Beslan, you're a bit out-dated don't you think retard?

yes and those pansy russians who single-handedly (with some cash) drove the germans back from their borders and into germany itself the wusses learn yur history
Funny how people who are insulting Europe always forget stuff like that huh? Or maybe they never knew...

.....
First of all Clintons program did not work, retard.

North Korea continued their nuclear program even during his Presidency.

President Bush isn't going to sit here like the pussy that Jacques Chirac is and wait for another country to be a victim of terrorist threats. The problem is Kim Jong Il is lying to all of you morons in Europe and you're all buying it. At this point he probably has up to 5-10 nukes, maybe more.

The differnce between you and me is that I understand that... "America:World Police" is not going to happen.

Yes Japan is so technologically advanced that they haven't even been to space yet! They're so technologically advanced that their weapons and tanks are outdated.

Oregon, no wonder...You're a fucking mormon.

Funny how people who are insulting Europe always forget stuff like that huh? Or maybe they never knew...

The reason why we make fun of Europe is because you fucking idiots dont even know that Russia isn't even considered to be in Europe, it shares borders with Asia and Europe therefore Eurasia.

On behalf of Great Britain, i'd just like to chime in by saying - http://www.stopwar.org.uk

(many of us find the opinions and attitudes of people like yourself deeply offensive.)

i would like to apoligize for the behavior of the americans her. I am american and people like this make me ashamed to be one. thank god (sorry if you don't believe in one) i was born and raised in a democratic household. plz forgive us for once again bringing in the chimp man (would you like to bet it's Iran or
Syria we invade next?) (i go Iran) i despise him. once again sorry.

First of all fat tits, I made no regards towards Russia at all. It is one of the few nations I respect. When I mention European nations I'm talking little bitch nations, mainly France. By the way, Russia is now helping against terrorism after the attack in Beslan, you're a bit out-dated don't you think retard?
Please, Putin was eager to jump on the "War on Terror" bandwagon to justify brutal suppression of any independence movements in fragmenting regions of the Federation, such as Chechnya.
Because France acts independently it's a little bitch? I think you have your definitions mixed up here.
And stop insulting people, it hardly helsp your 'credibility.'

No to WW 1 and No to WW 2. Europe back then was poised to do WW1 and WW2 was a logical consequence of the Versailles Treaty. I don't blame the Jews at all, but the entire geo-political climate in Europe during the 19th and early 20th century.

Oh come on World War II was not a logical consequence of the Vesialles treaty, and you know it. That's just bullshit. Germany could have repudiated the reparations and loans without a going on a european land grab, and Germany had also been excused from the most onerous sections of versailles before Hitler took power. So enough.

In any event, I fail to see how: 1) invading poland; or, 2) extermination camps are the logical outgrowth of the treaty of versailles. Because they are not. Hitler is all on Germany. Other countries were having horrendous economic problems too. They didn't invade their neighbors or start the wholesale slaughter of Jews.

As for world war I, is seem to remember in the run up, Germany was the nation assembling a massive land army and navy to rock the boat in europe, not the Entente. It is fairly clear that German militarism and imperial ambitions were the primary drive towards world war I in europe. Doubly so since the Franco Prussian war had been such a smashing sucess for you chaps. Just own up for it for God's sake. We american's now freely admit we started the spanish american war &ct.

(Sometimes I think Morgenthau was right.)

Yes Japan is so technologically advanced that they haven't even been to space yet! They're so technologically advanced that their weapons and tanks are outdated.

Oregon, no wonder...You're a fucking mormon.

Is this genuinely how you judge the technological prowess of a nation? Military might and how much money has been flaunted on the purely symbolic guesture of space-exploration?

Yes Japan is so technologically advanced that they haven't even been to space yet! They're so technologically advanced that their weapons and tanks are outdated.

Oregon, no wonder...You're a fucking mormon.

they aren't allowed a real army and you are thinking of utah (geez yah don't even know your own countries historyy pathetic)

Is this genuinely how you judge the technological prowess of a nation? Military might and how much money has been flaunted on the purely symbolic guesture of space-exploration?

u betcha! thank god for the land of the free (i hope we get someone decent in office next time!)

The reason why we make fun of Europe is because you fucking idiots dont even know that Russia isn't even considered to be in Europe, it shares borders with Asia and Europe therefore Eurasia.
I'm from Australia. :rolleyes: And I'm perfectly aware of where Russia is, but in terms of population the most densely populated areas are in Europe.

Yes Japan is so technologically advanced that they haven't even been to space yet! They're so technologically advanced that their weapons and tanks are outdated.

Oregon, no wonder...You're a fucking mormon.

LOL in robotics, mechanics, computer technology, transport, engineering, you name it, Japan is lightyears ahead of the US. Because instead of wasting their money in military technology they use their money to make more money in civil tech, so it's cheaper for them to have the US put their satellites in space than build a space program of their own. Read up about Japan, considering their lack of natural resources to mantain a 1st world economy, they've managed to do the imposible.

Dont be stupid.

Spain got what it deserved! Who the @#$*! are you to say that!! Wait maybe you would like to carry a bomb to some public place..hide it so no one can see it....maybe even set up a remote video camera so you can watch as all the innocent people are blown to bits.......YOU ARE A SICK AND TWISTED WORTHLESS EXCUSE FOR A HUMAN BEING......A GD TERRORIST AT HEART!!!
ROB
:upyours:

unless of course you jest.........but that would still be a sick joke.
Spain followed the US into an illegal war and the following illegal oppression and occupation of Iraq. The terrorist attack was a consequence of that. Blame Aznar for this. He was the one who decided to force Spain into it, despite the majority of the people opposing the decision.

Firstly, our military is already larger than 100.000, secondly, Germany is not America's bitch (though some people here are, the German's as a whole are not). Thirdly, 10.000.000 is a little overexaggerated. Try 6 million or so. Let's not warm up "ancient history" again because then you got enough murders to be ashamed of yourself.

Fourthly, we don't like it if you make a mess in front of our doorsteps. If you mess up the middle east, you fix it. No money, no soldiers, nothing from us. We didn't destroy it, we don't pay for it. Deal with it.

OHHH NO! we lost the oil for food money,,we cant sell Sadaam any more arms..sniffle sniff sniff.....you damn americans just f'd everything up and we hate you.
By the way....if you had decided to clean up your own doorstep instead of throwing more trash in it...We wouldn't have had to clean it up...take a shower, mow the lawn, shut the #$@ up. You whiny little whelp raised on the teet of a selfish anti-moralistic nation. Not to mention just a littttttle ungratefull.
Rob

As for world war I, is seem to remember in the run up, Germany was the nation assembling a massive land army and navy to rock the boat in europe, not the Entente. It is fairly clear that German militarism and imperial ambitions were the primary drive towards world war I in europe.


I take it the paralells, spurious though they may be, are not lost on you?

I won't even bother argueing with you liberal fucking retard and you 3rd world nation European countries. You are all retarded and your "utopia" based life will never exist. I can't wait until France suffers a massive nuclear attack. We'll see who's going to help you pussies this time.

I'm done with this post because it's a waste of time.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS BUSH WON THE ELECTION AND ALL YOU BITCHES ARE FUCKED HAHAHAHA.

PRESIDENT BUSH 2004!!!!

We'll see how much you hate America when your homeless mom's and dad's die trying to bring you to this country.

The reason why we make fun of Europe is because you fucking idiots dont even know that Russia isn't even considered to be in Europe, it shares borders with Asia and Europe therefore Eurasia.

betcha didn't know that people in south america and canada and mexico and central america sometimes get pissed off because we think we are the only people who get to cll ourselves amreicans! also that in mexico they think that there are 6 continents with North and South America as one.

OHHH NO! we lost the oil for food money,,we cant sell Sadaam any more arms..sniffle sniff sniff.....you damn americans just f'd everything up and we hate you.
By the way....if you had decided to clean up your own doorstep instead of throwing more trash in it...We wouldn't have had to clean it up...take a shower, mow the lawn, shut the #$@ up. You whiny little whelp raised on the teet of a selfish anti-moralistic nation. Not to mention just a littttttle ungratefull.
Rob
Hussein was much easier contained than the terrorism hellhole Iraq is now. We knew this beforehand. The sanctions worked and Hussein had no WMD and practically no military might. He was a poser, thats all. What happened to Iraq now with all this instability and almost civil war, is much more dangerous than Hussein ever was.

We'll see how much you hate America when your homeless mom's and dad's die trying to bring you to this country.
The fact that you think our "mom's and dad's" will have to move us shows your age, and explains the immaturity.

Quite happy where I am, Kalashniwhatsit old chap. Between the National Health service, and the lack of a need for metal-detector weilding police in primary-schools, Britain is looking pretty rosy actually.

also that in mexico they think that there are 6 continents with North and South America as one.
Make that 5. I mean, Europe and Asia? That line down th Urals is so.. arbitrary! :p

LOL in robotics, mechanics, computer technology, transport, engineering, you name it, Japan is lightyears ahead of the US. Because instead of wasting their money in military technology they use their money to make more money in civil tech, so it's cheaper for them to have the US put their satellites in space than build a space program of their own. Read up about Japan, considering their lack of natural resources to mantain a 1st world economy, they've managed to do the imposible.

Dont be stupid.

thank you (i was the one he was yelling at.) yes you're right, but hey if we get bigger guns and bombs we can kill more people. whoohooo that's productive. civil stuff is more useful.

one pissed off liberal jackass signing of for the night,
sincerely bobslovakia.

um is there any chance we can get past all this flaming and proving that stupidity knows no national boarders and get back to some real topics? Like before the mods come and close this line.

I won't even bother argueing with you liberal fucking retard and you 3rd world nation European countries. You are all retarded and your "utopia" based life will never exist. I can't wait until France suffers a massive nuclear attack. We'll see who's going to help you pussies this time.

I'm done with this post because it's a waste of time.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS BUSH WON THE ELECTION AND ALL YOU BITCHES ARE FUCKED HAHAHAHA.

PRESIDENT BUSH 2004!!!!

We'll see how much you hate America when your homeless mom's and dad's die trying to bring you to this country.
My mom is not homeless, my dad might be homeless (no idea where he is actually) and I am not homeless. I like it here and I am not jealous of the US. If I would want to move anywhere else, it would be Norway, Sweden or Finland :)

I take it the paralells, spurious though they may be, are not lost on you?

Yes, that's right, the US has a five million man army which we built up in the past ten years. We also are building a large navy for no other reason than to challenge the massive canadian navy. (Of course since we only want to rival canada in the western North atlantic we did bother to build ships with any extended endurance, it's really just to rock the boat - if you pardon the pun),

We also have a plan to quickly knock canada out of the war by a swift invasion before we turn around and defeat mexico. Then we can demand our share of overseas colonies that the other north american nations have denied us, thus cheating us of our destiny. /sarcasm

If you want to compare the US in iraq to European imperialism, probably the closest analog is the Boer war, and even then that's not close.

um is there any chance we can get past all this flaming and proving that stupidity knows no national boarders and get back to some real topics? Like before the mods come and close this line.
Usually they lock threads after warning...only When both sides are Cursing...

so far I only see Kalashnikovo do the Cursing...And if I was a Mormon ( www.mormon.org )...I would personally take issue with him

I was simply implying that with america flexing it's military might so much, especially with it's increasingly seperatist viewpoint and the tendancy to feel justified to police the world (whether for good cause or not) that eventually something is going to give, and we have ourselves the long overdue ww3.

i would like to apoligize for the behavior of the americans her. I am american and people like this make me ashamed to be one. thank god (sorry if you don't believe in one) i was born and raised in a democratic household. plz forgive us for once again bringing in the chimp man (would you like to bet it's Iran or
Syria we invade next?) (i go Iran) i despise him. once again sorry.

oh sooo sorry.......apeasement.......blind tolerance........shame. i'm such a worthless evil american. Grow a Backbone.
Rob

Usually they lock threads after warning...only When both sides are Cursing...

so far I only see Kalashnikovo do the Cursing...And if I was a Mormon...I would personally take issue with him

ya he's not brightest lightbulb in the box. Their are good and bad americans like there are good and bad europians. Such is life.

...Their are good and bad americans like there are good and bad europians. Such is life.
Amen...I mean exactamente :)

Amen...I mean exactamente :)

So i have a question why did the rest of the world really want kerry?

So i have a question why did the rest of the world really want kerry?
Because he's not Bush.

Because he's not Bush.
That pretty much it....It is not that they like Kerry...

Its that Bush has alienated them. ( in this case alienated is a polite word)

Originally Posted by Ita
So i have a question why did the rest of the world really want kerry?

Because he's not Bush.
Took the words out of my mouth.
We don't necessarily like Kerry, we just dislike him less than Bush.

Spain followed the US into an illegal war and the following illegal oppression and occupation of Iraq. The terrorist attack was a consequence of that. Blame Aznar for this. He was the one who decided to force Spain into it, despite the majority of the people opposing the decision.

OK, here's the gauntlet.......who are you, or anyone else for that matter to call it illegal? We went to the UN (bunch of pathetic mutual brown nosers) and we even went to our own congress. We dont need the world telling us what to do or to give us permission we do not need a GLOBAL test. America is one of a handfull of nations that have the balls to stand against terrorist and rogue nations. A group of nations who place importance on the human condition as a litmus test for the judgement of leaders who would demoralize, terrorize and enslave their own citizens with fear. Just because there are countries who whould shy away from such a challenge due to a lack of moral conviction, selfishness, cowardice, or perhaps even terrorist sympathetic does not mean nor does it even begin to affect the realm of legality. Get a life.
Rob

judgement of leaders who would demoralize, terrorize and enslave their own citizens with fear

Hmm I get the feeling, your country needs to be liberated.

Hmm I get the feeling, your country needs to be liberated.
But Gig, fear is what makes their great democracy work. ;)
It's what gets people elected anyway...

OK, here's the gauntlet.......who are you, or anyone else for that matter to call it illegal?
And, here's the gauntlet.......
Lets say John goes to Rob's house and Burns it down
.....who are you, or anyone else for that matter to call it illegal?

George W. Bush: Saving the world, whether it likes it or not!

George W. Bush: Saving the world, whether it likes it or not!
The World: Saving the U.S., whether it likes it or not!

Took the words out of my mouth.
We don't necessarily like Kerry, we just dislike him less than Bush.

Now i don't like bush, but i really don't like kerry. Kerry is too much of a polotician (spelling?) He doesn't take a stand on anything. He sways like branch in the wind. This has a direct effect on me being in the military. My main concern is his vote against a bill to spend more money in iraq to get soldiers, body armor, spare parts and other things they need to win as well as just survive this war. I don't care if the war is unpopular you don't leave your troops out to dry because public opnion has shifted.

OK, here's the gauntlet.......who are you, or anyone else for that matter to call it illegal? We went to the UN (bunch of pathetic mutual brown nosers) and we even went to our own congress. We dont need the world telling us what to do or to give us permission we do not need a GLOBAL test. America is one of a handfull of nations that have the balls to stand against terrorist and rogue nations. A group of nations who place importance on the human condition as a litmus test for the judgement of leaders who would demoralize, terrorize and enslave their own citizens with fear. Just because there are countries who whould shy away from such a challenge due to a lack of moral conviction, selfishness, cowardice, or perhaps even terrorist sympathetic does not mean nor does it even begin to affect the realm of legality. Get a life.
Rob

Rob dude

Relax what your doing isn't going to help do anything it just gets people angry. Try dropping the degrading remarks and just use logic. It works better.

Now i don't like bush, but i really don't like kerry. Kerry is too much of a polotician (spelling?) He doesn't take a stand on anything. He sways like branch in the wind. This has a direct effect on me being in the military. My main concern is his vote against a bill to spend more money in iraq to get soldiers, body armor, spare parts and other things they need to win as well as just survive this war. I don't care if the war is unpopular you don't leave your troops out to dry because public opnion has shifted.
Ideally the troops wouldnt be in Iraq in the first place. I dont know how Kerry voted and on what and why, but I've seen him speak and I've seen him present his plans and his ideals for the U.S. Bush was easily flattened during all 3 presidential debates, and still he's re-elected. This election sounds the death-knell of the U.S. reputation in the world.

.... My main concern is his vote against a bill to spend more money in iraq to get soldiers, body armor, spare parts and other things ...Ohhhhhh.. So that the TV ad that got to you.

I remember it...how could i forget.... it was well done....the best Ad of the whole election.

The lone soldiers in the Desert...And Armor and other gear fading...disapearaing...untill they poor soldiers are almost defenseless...naked..

OK, here's the gauntlet.......who are you, or anyone else for that matter to call it illegal? We went to the UN (bunch of pathetic mutual brown nosers) and we even went to our own congress. We dont need the world telling us what to do or to give us permission we do not need a GLOBAL test. America is one of a handfull of nations that have the balls to stand against terrorist and rogue nations. A group of nations who place importance on the human condition as a litmus test for the judgement of leaders who would demoralize, terrorize and enslave their own citizens with fear. Just because there are countries who whould shy away from such a challenge due to a lack of moral conviction, selfishness, cowardice, or perhaps even terrorist sympathetic does not mean nor does it even begin to affect the realm of legality. Get a life.
Rob


Is this even response worthy?? Attacking a nation because we dont like the leader is both wrong and immoral. What if I dont like Blair? It is not ok (or internationally LEGAL) to go and oust him. And while the UN may not be the best way to get stuff passed, it has prevented anybody from entering what we made the mistake of entering in the 30's and 40's... At least, until fucktards like Bush go and pull out of it and ignore them.
The Congress only PARTIALLY agreed to the war because it's mostly republican. That's like a Christian asking a Christian if Jesus is the answer. Or better yet, a radical Muslim asking another radical Muslim if jihads are ok. Which is what? Terrorism?
And then when we discover that we've been in the WRONG country the entire time, and it DOESNT EVEN HAVE WMD's, what's the excuse? To induce democracy? Has that ever worked? And isn't it called... IMPERIALISM?? And if you're going to do that, what about Saudi Arabia? DICTATOR!! I"m sorry... "king"
To top it all off, here's a nice slap in the face: Terrorism. Is. Supreme. You can never beat terrorism no matter how hard you try. We used terrorism in the Revolutionary War. And terrorism will continue as the extremist method of getting a point across. :sniper:
So end this "war on terror." Because it isn't over, Bush was wrong, and it's time to suck it up and get over it. :headbang:

Originally Posted by Ita
Now i don't like bush, but i really don't like kerry. Kerry is too much of a polotician (spelling?) He doesn't take a stand on anything. He sways like branch in the wind. This has a direct effect on me being in the military. My main concern is his vote against a bill to spend more money in iraq to get soldiers, body armor, spare parts and other things they need to win as well as just survive this war. I don't care if the war is unpopular you don't leave your troops out to dry because public opnion has shifted.
Well, maybe with Kerry the UN would get involved in peacekeeping?
And OceanDrive mentioned an ad? I don't know what your source was, but I wouldn't be trusting a campaign ad overly much. :p
Overall Kerry comes across like he'd be somewhat more willing to co-operate with the international community. And I'm sure he wouldn't claim that God made him president. :P
Besides, seeing Bush's poorly concealed smirk just pisses me off. And from an Australian point of view, it might gve our Prime Minister time to crawl out of Bush's rectum...

Hussein was much easier contained than the terrorism hellhole Iraq is now. We knew this beforehand. The sanctions worked and Hussein had no WMD and practically no military might. He was a poser, thats all. What happened to Iraq now with all this instability and almost civil war, is much more dangerous than Hussein ever was.

Still, no concern for the atrocities he commited against those poor people...and there you were watching as he did it...Guess if you thought you might get your but kicked you wouldn't help an old lady getting beat to death in the street. Your point of view is obviously one of pure self gratification and preservation.......It is because of people like you that sick bastards like Saddam are allowed to continue their sick, evil, and twisted existance.
Iraq has pockets of resistance due to people (I use that term loosly) that support a twisted and evil (and thankfully gone) regime and its policy of leadership by fear and prosperity of a brutal ruleing class. These pockets will be cleaned up soon enough. Most of Iraq and its people are quite happy to be free from tyranny........perhaps if you had lived under it you would have been happy to have your family beat and raped while you watched, or maybe you would have thought it cool to watch the look on your spouses face as they are run through a grinder feet first,fortunatly the VAST majority of people dont. Oh and about the WMD, he had plenty of time to send it to his buddies or sell it or whatever.......or maybe he was just trying to get it...bet germany or france would have loved to sell him a nuke think of all that cash. The fact remains in the length of time weve been there and the time he had to dispose of any..there will probably never be conclusive evidence as to the fictionality or not of the WMD. YET......I sick evil tyrant is now deposed, and no doubt if he had obtained WMD (if he didnt have it) he would have used it or sold it to someone who would. He was a threat to the whole of the civilized world and most of all to his own people.
Rob

I just thought Id point out that I think Ita mentioned he was in the military and that that was why he had a problem with the vote. Personaly even though I didn't vote for Bush I can sort of undestand why he did if that was the case.

Is this even response worthy?? Attacking a nation because we dont like the leader is both wrong and immoral. What if I dont like Blair? It is not ok (or internationally LEGAL) to go and oust him. And while the UN may not be the best way to get stuff passed, it has prevented anybody from entering what we made the mistake of entering in the 30's and 40's... At least, until fucktards like Bush go and pull out of it and ignore them.
The Congress only PARTIALLY agreed to the war because it's mostly republican. That's like a Christian asking a Christian if Jesus is the answer. Or better yet, a radical Muslim asking another radical Muslim if jihads are ok. Which is what? Terrorism?
And then when we discover that we've been in the WRONG country the entire time, and it DOESNT EVEN HAVE WMD's, what's the excuse? To induce democracy? Has that ever worked? And isn't it called... IMPERIALISM?? And if you're going to do that, what about Saudi Arabia? DICTATOR!! I"m sorry... "king"
To top it all off, here's a nice slap in the face: Terrorism. Is. Supreme. You can never beat terrorism no matter how hard you try. We used terrorism in the Revolutionary War. And terrorism will continue as the extremist method of getting a point across. :sniper:
So end this "war on terror." Because it isn't over, Bush was wrong, and it's time to suck it up and get over it. :headbang:
Your right attacking a country because we don't like the leader is wrong. Attacking a country because he's attempting genocide on his own people is not wrong. Your right we haven't gone after Saudi. They haven't used chem weapons on their own people. The don't imprission anyone who speaks against them. They don't kill off whole families for suspected treason.

He was a threat to the whole of the civilized world and most of all to his own people.
Does anyone else get a little bitter aftertaste every time someone uses the phrase "the civilised world?" It has overtones of racism/colonialism to me, the innate superiority of the west or something, the "white man's burden." And it's used to justify thing like Iraq, as if the US and its allies are on some sort of civilising mission.

I'm drawing it out a little here because I want comments, but I do cringe whenever I hear it used.

Ohhhhhh.. So that the TV ad that got to you.

I remember it...how could i forget.... it was well done....the best Ad of the whole election.

The lone soldiers in the Desert...And Armor and other gear fading...disapearaing...untill they poor soldiers are almost defenseless...naked..

You know i never actually saw that ad. It probably was a pretty good one. But i did check out the bill. It was a realatively good bill that had some draw backs, but it would have been for the betterment of the soldiers.

Does anyone else get a little bitter aftertaste every time someone uses the phrase "the civilised world?" It has overtones of racism/colonialism to me, the innate superiority of the west or something, the "white man's burden." And it's used to justify thing like Iraq, as if the US and its allies are on some sort of civilising mission.

I'm drawing it out a little here because I want comments, but I do cringe whenever I hear it used.


Well it depends who you class as the "civilized" world.

If you use it as a euphamism for US/Canada/Australia N.Z. /Western Europe, then yes.

But if you include Mexico, South America, Japan, South Korea etc. then no.

And, here's the gauntlet.......
Lets say John goes to Rob's house and Burns it down
.....who are you, or anyone else for that matter to call it illegal?

Ok symantics........that was not exactly an answer to the question nor was it really a good example but just for kicks I'll try to follow your goad.
If rob was an unmoralistic ass who was using his house as a slave trading outpost.....then goody for john. If john burned it down just because he felt like it bad boy john. We didnt burn down Iraq.....actually we strategically took that country....great care and quite possibly a loss of troops on our side has been had by our strongly held intent to keep the innocent loss of life to a minimum and to preserve the infrastructure....we only want the evil sickos.
Now would you try to really answer the question?
Rob

I get another bad feeling when I see Americans accuse Hussein of "using chemical weapons against his own people". In the 80s, before the First Gulfwar, with the greenlight and supply from the U.S. since he was a valuable ally against Iran, to quell a kurdish rebellion. What did you expect him to do? Stand down and let the kurds take over? Maybe he would have, if the Americans, who encouraged the kurds to rebel, wouldnt have abandoned them.

Now the US is on a mad crusade to top Hussein's death count. And the over-exaggerated numbers I always hear + the propaganda how evil and bad Hussein was, make me wonder why his country functioned without terrorism and without a religiously motivated Mulla-state while he was in power? The sanctions deprived that country of it's life power - thousands - no- millions of children died from lack of food or medication. I refuse to accept that Iraq and Hussein were the black & white issue the US want it to appear as. I sense a strong scent of propaganda whenever the US speak about pre-war Iraq to justify their illegal Iraq war in hindsight.

our strongly held intent to keep the innocent loss of life to a minimum and to preserve the infrastructure.
Rob
Oh so that's why you now bomb wedding parties, children, women, civilians, in the crusade to perhaps hit a possible terrorist. So that's why Iraq's oil is flowing so abundandly, why their electricity is still not at pre-war levels, why the elections in January are still not secure (and might never be, since they're a puppet election to give Allawi the faint smell of being elected, while he's been put in power by the US a long time ago for purely imperialistic reasons. If not Allawi, Chalabi would have been it, someone with even less support in Iraq, a criminal and traitor).

Rob dude

Relax what your doing isn't going to help do anything it just gets people angry. Try dropping the degrading remarks and just use logic. It works better.

Sorry Ita, yet herein lies the problem.....sometimes telling the truth makes people very angry and although some believe the truth to be wholly subjective I do not. Not because I am under educated, and not because I'm completely hard headed. In fact I come to my conclusions with a clear mind and a carefull weighing of issues involved. Unfortunatly too many would use the logic to simply evade the truth (or hide from it) , or they might even use it in an attempt to twist the truth to fit a specific bias. Fact Saddam was evil, Fact Saddam was a threat (to his own people for sure, to other countries as well) Fact Other countries saw him and see other nations as well as potential terrorist threats, as terrorist supporters, and last but definatly not least as havens for inhuman treatment of people. Fact their are countries who not only did business with him but would continue to regardless of the atrocities he commited. These countries obviously would only have done so for a handfull of reasons...(the ones I mentioned before) So although it may be inflamitory for some.......the truth is what it is, I for one will not apoligize for our stand against this sickness that pervades our world even if others would sit back take bets and watch.
Rob

Ok symantics........that was not exactly an answer to the question nor was it really a good example but just for kicks I'll try to follow your goad.
If rob was an unmoralistic ass who was using his house as a slave trading outpost.....then goody for john. If john burned it down just because he felt like it bad boy john. We didnt burn down Iraq.....actually we strategically took that country....great care and quite possibly a loss of troops on our side has been had by our strongly held intent to keep the innocent loss of life to a minimum and to preserve the infrastructure....we only want the evil sickos.
Now would you try to really answer the question?
RobHere is my answer...Jonny Killed the Women (slaves) at Rob's house When he Burned Robs House (Trying To get Rob to surrender the WMD)...
When he went to see in the Burned remains of the House, he found out that there was no WMD...and he mumbled something about Rob's ties to al-queda...and that since he burned the Womens House...they would never be slaves again...

Then John took a Plane back to Paraguay...

My answer is they are both Inmoral...
Illegal? most likely (pending a trial) by the definition of the laws in Groenland...Did I mention that Rob's house was in Groenland?

Now Honorland your turn:
Question.....who are you to decide what is legal in Groenland? and what is not? ...after all you are not Governement of Groenland are you?

Is this even response worthy?? Attacking a nation because we dont like the leader is both wrong and immoral. What if I dont like Blair? It is not ok (or internationally LEGAL) to go and oust him. And while the UN may not be the best way to get stuff passed, it has prevented anybody from entering what we made the mistake of entering in the 30's and 40's... At least, until fucktards like Bush go and pull out of it and ignore them.
The Congress only PARTIALLY agreed to the war because it's mostly republican. That's like a Christian asking a Christian if Jesus is the answer. Or better yet, a radical Muslim asking another radical Muslim if jihads are ok. Which is what? Terrorism?
And then when we discover that we've been in the WRONG country the entire time, and it DOESNT EVEN HAVE WMD's, what's the excuse? To induce democracy? Has that ever worked? And isn't it called... IMPERIALISM?? And if you're going to do that, what about Saudi Arabia? DICTATOR!! I"m sorry... "king"
To top it all off, here's a nice slap in the face: Terrorism. Is. Supreme. You can never beat terrorism no matter how hard you try. We used terrorism in the Revolutionary War. And terrorism will continue as the extremist method of getting a point across. :sniper:
So end this "war on terror." Because it isn't over, Bush was wrong, and it's time to suck it up and get over it. :headbang:


If blair was sending his henchmen to rape your family while you watched then YEP id bet you would want someone to come fix it.
Rob

The problem with America vs. Europe is that Europe has a geographically induced mantality. They have been around for a long time, they have become empires and blown up their chests with confidence just to have another empire or THEMSELVES knock them down and show them who's bitch they really are.

Because of this, the European people have had their fill of war. They've gone increasingly socialist, for they live in an extremely little isolated world. Go to Spain -- it's left wing. Germany -- left wing. France -- left wing. Britian? Left wing. The response to this is a generationally grown mentality of "fighting is the misstakes of our forfathers. If no one fights, there will be no problems."

Ironically, in WW2, that same mentality led Adolf Hitler to nearly conquer the entire planet.

SOMEONE fights. AMERICA has not had their senses dulled by stagnation. To the north of us is a country that's trying as fast as it can to become completely socialist. To the south of us is a country economically starving. Within us is a sharp division between traditional values and progressive issues, and somewhere in New York City on September 11, 8 years of ignoring an obvious danger led to the deaths of 3,000 innocent people in one swift blow. Japan learned the hard way that you don't kick The United States in the balls, for all you do is awaken a sleeping giant, and that giant has you for breakfast.

And the traditional islamic believers are the antagonist this time around. Their entire doctorine, ever since their formation, has taught that there are two houses of the world -- The House of Islam, and The House of War. They believe it is THEIR purpose in life, as muslims, to eliminate the House of War, to where ONLY the House of Islam prevails. That can be achieved through either conversion, forced submission to Islamic rule, or complete eradication of all that isn't Islamic. Never before has Islam felt this was a possible goal, until 9/11, and they finally had hope. The retaliation of the sleeping giant was met by the House of Islam fully prepared to wipe out their most prominant opposition -- America, the land of the free and Christian principles where anything religion is okay.

And there's Europe -- clueless to all this happening. With a death rate higher than their birth rate, Spain imports tons of muslims from Turkey every year to work at their factory. It's estimated that by 2020 Spain's population will be prodominantly muslim. My 2050, Spain, and the rest of Europe, will be ruled by the House of Islam.

These simple observations make us, as Americans, not remorseful that Europe doesn't like us in the slightest. Europe doesn't have a clue what's happening, and they won't until it's too late.

Your right attacking a country because we don't like the leader is wrong. Attacking a country because he's attempting genocide on his own people is not wrong. Your right we haven't gone after Saudi. They haven't used chem weapons on their own people. The don't imprission anyone who speaks against them. They don't kill off whole families for suspected treason.

HORRAY!!! Go Ita!!
Rob

I get another bad feeling when I see Americans accuse Hussein of "using chemical weapons against his own people". In the 80s, before the First Gulfwar, with the greenlight and supply from the U.S. since he was a valuable ally against Iran, to quell a kurdish rebellion. What did you expect him to do? Stand down and let the kurds take over? Maybe he would have, if the Americans, who encouraged the kurds to rebel, wouldnt have abandoned them.

Now the US is on a mad crusade to top Hussein's death count. And the over-exaggerated numbers I always hear + the propaganda how evil and bad Hussein was, make me wonder why his country functioned without terrorism and without a religiously motivated Mulla-state while he was in power? The sanctions deprived that country of it's life power - thousands - no- millions of children died from lack of food or medication. I refuse to accept that Iraq and Hussein were the black & white issue the US want it to appear as. I sense a strong scent of propaganda whenever the US speak about pre-war Iraq to justify their illegal Iraq war in hindsight.


I find it disturbing that you justify of the use of chemicle weapons on a population of civilians because they were trying to create an indpendent country. He almost wiped out a city with a population of over 80000 and has created lifelong health problems for tens of thousands more, and your justifying that action?

Now about the 1980's yes we supported iraq. We gave them conventional weapons because they were agianst iran. We trained them. But we condoned their use of CW in their fight with IRan.

In order for Sadaam to maintain power he needed an enemy. He needed something to keep people distracted. THis combined with the use of terror tactics (which this man was a genious at) he was able to hold on to his power. He also learned that he could manipulate the world powers for his benifit.

Now for the sanctions. First off that would be a UN backed santions, so europe's hands are just as bloody. Sactions only hurt the people of a country. They don't work on the ruling class. They are designed to make the people so desperate that they rebel against the current leadership. Not the greatest tactic but one of the UN's favorites.

Your right not to take all the propaganda that comes from the government at first sight, but i did the research before we were even thinking bout invading iraq, even before the war on terror. Sadaam is an evil man. There are no ifs and's or but's about it.

As a true, red-blooded America, I must say that I don’t give a crap what foreigners say about Bush, and I believe that most foreigners who don’t like him feel that way because he won’t bow to their whims. I feel this is especially true of Mainland Europe.

In order for bush to maintain power he needed an enemy. He needed something to keep people distracted. THis combined with the use of terror tactics (which this man was a genious at) he was able to hold on to his power. He also learned that he could manipulate the world powers for his benifit.



O_o





(j/k)

I agree Mallartia, President Bush is a smart man, who doesn't take sh*t from anyone. I also believe countries outside of the U.S. shouldn't be talking with Presidents like Jacques Chirac. Why don't we just drop this whole topic, guys? You can whine all you want about President Bush, the bottom line is that he was re-elected and you can't do anything about it, nor could you foreigners ever.

....I believe that most foreigners who don’t like him feel that way because .....ever been in europe?...how long?

Does anyone else get a little bitter aftertaste every time someone uses the phrase "the civilised world?" It has overtones of racism/colonialism to me, the innate superiority of the west or something, the "white man's burden." And it's used to justify thing like Iraq, as if the US and its allies are on some sort of civilising mission.

I'm drawing it out a little here because I want comments, but I do cringe whenever I hear it used.

NO actually it says exactly what it says........civilized world refers to the majority of the world that is opposed to the degradation of humanity and that would supposedly support and uphold the ideals of human rights. It has no undertones what so ever...unless of course you hear them..and this is not an attack on you, only an observation.....perhaps those undertones are present due to some personal issues or a "learned definition".
Rob

As a true, red-blooded America, I must say that I don’t give a crap what foreigners say about Bush, and I believe that most foreigners who don’t like him feel that way because he won’t bow to their whims. I feel this is especially true of Mainland Europe.


Do you care what your fellow Americans think of him?

...and you can't do anything about it, nor could you foreigners ever.Internet + FreeSpeech ...you can't do anything about it...no matter where are you from.

Do you care what your fellow Americans think of him?

I know very few Kerry supporters, pal.

That's true, but why complain about President Bush when the majority of you kiddes can't even vote. This is a pointless topic that will start conflit between people. You can say all you want about Bush, like I said. He won the election, your opinion doesn't count nor has it ever counted.

That's true, but why complain about President Bush when the majority of you kiddes can't even vote. This is a pointless topic that will start conflit between people. You can say all you want about Bush, like I said. He won the election, your opinion doesn't count nor has it ever counted.

That's another thing that I believe bothers foreigners. In most other countries the people will listen to their opinions about elections and other major decisions. We Americans don’t really give a crap what they think, because they don’t live here and won’t have to deal with the results of whatever decisions we make as directly as we will.

Just wondering how do you feel all that...Telekinetik powers maybe?

I have friends who have been there, my father has been there, etc...,etc...

Agreed, if America listened to surrounding nations as most European countries do we would have been in an economic sh*tter long ago with absolutely no power. By following our own path, and not listening to anyone else, that's how we got to where we were today.

We Americans don’t really give a crap what they think, because they don’t live here and won’t have to deal with the results of whatever decisions we make as directly as we will.

With President Bush around, EVERYONE has to deal with the results.
as you can plainly see just from the amount of world-interest in the election.

Agreed, if America listened to surrounding nations as most European countries do we would have been in an economic sh*tter long ago with absolutely no power. By following our own path, and not listening to anyone else, that's how we got to where we were today.

You can say that again, pal! Look at France and Germany. Both economically in the crapper so deep, it's not even worth it to laugh at them.

On a different note, I do admire one group of Europeans.

No you definetly do not suffer any reprocussions of Bush's presidency unless he decides to attack your country.

We are fighting the war against terrorism because no one else will do it. Everyone just wants to sit there and pretend like nothing happend.

With President Bush around, EVERYONE has to deal with the results.

Not quite as directly as the American people, as you can see by their refusal to vote according to the opinion of some guy in Germany, Spain, France, or in China.

Oh so that's why you now bomb wedding parties, children, women, civilians, in the crusade to perhaps hit a possible terrorist. So that's why Iraq's oil is flowing so abundandly, why their electricity is still not at pre-war levels, why the elections in January are still not secure (and might never be, since they're a puppet election to give Allawi the faint smell of being elected, while he's been put in power by the US a long time ago for purely imperialistic reasons. If not Allawi, Chalabi would have been it, someone with even less support in Iraq, a criminal and traitor).

This arguement is lacking in substance......1. in war there will always unfortunatly be civilian casualties....2. intellegence will never be 100% perfect...3. people were notified regularly areas to stay away from..4. the terrorists who are currently causing the problems in Iraq are the ones slowing the rebuilding of whatever infrastructor was damaged and that are attempting to create an unstable atmosphere in that country to get the rest of the world to pressure us from deposing their sick ideas of leadership and leave them alone.......or is that lost on you, did you not realize you have become a puppet to their attempts at propaganda by terror? and of course the country must be allowed to attempt to go on no matter the few disadents which mostly are not from Iraq at all..........5. Guess you forget the joy of the Iraqi people when they tore down his statue and destroyed other liknesses of him.
Rob

Although Kalashnikovo might have been a little bit vulgar, but he definetly made good points.

People outside of the country don't even know what's going on with America politically. It just happens to be a fad that all these countries are following along. Most people learn all their politics from people like Michael Moore who lie so blatantly and our liberal group of actors and actress' give him oscars for it.

Before I say anything else I would like to ask all of you people from Europe who sit here and judge America and say we’re so terrible because we invaded Iraq to go and look up some of the horrible things your nations have done in the past. After you have done that, I invite you to come back here and see if you still have the stomach to judge us.

I'm not stereo-typing all European people but a large majority of you are very envious and jealous of America and how free all of our people are. Like Kalashnikovo said, it's true. Most of your families would have died trying to get to America. Hating America because some other political idiot in another country is just stupid and shows the American people how dumb some of you people are.

I'm not trying to steryotype all Europeans either. I respect those among you who are willing to let us make our own decisions and choices without whining, and I respect those of you who remember what we have done for Europe.

Agreed, if America listened to surrounding nations as most European countries do we would have been in an economic sh*tter long ago with absolutely no power. By following our own path, and not listening to anyone else, that's how we got to where we were today.


The greater the power, the more dangerous the abuse.
- Edmund Burke


I would have to disagree with you on the reprocutions. The whole world has felt the ripples of Bush's actions in the past 4 years, most noteably the Invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. Just or otherwise isn't the issue.
If nothing else your president's dragging us to war, and his handling of it etc etc leads to increasing bad feelings towards the people of our country from the muslim/etc world. Not to mention the soldiers of our country that have died as a direct result of your presidents decision to go to war.

That even before you get into the complex issues of interdependant econamy and so on.

I distrust the term "War on Terror." Terrorism isn't a country, it isn't a nation of people. You cannot invade terrorism, or capture it's people. Terrorism is a technique at best, and terrorists are not the iraqi people, or the afghanistani people, even if iraqis and afghanistani's are terrorists.

In my opinion viewing terrorism as something that requires a military, rather than police, response, is deeply dangerous.

I fail to see how Deposing Saddam even qualifies as part of the war on terror, really. Maybe i'm missing something though.

The greater the power, the more dangerous the abuse.
- Edmund Burke

I fail to see how Deposing Saddam even qualifies as part of the war on terror, really. Maybe I'm missing something though.

Good quote, but I must respectfully say that you ARE missing something, and that something is a whopper.

I'm not stereo-typing all European people but a large majority of you are very envious and jealous of America and how free all of our people are.

I don't honestly believe america to be a particuly free country at this point in time, at least not in comparison to my own.

:p

Here is my answer...Jonny Killed the Women (slaves) at Rob's house When he Burned Robs House (Trying To get Rob to surrender the WMD)...
When he went to see in the Burned remains of the House, he found out that there was no WMD...and he mumbled something about Rob's ties to al-queda...and that since he burned the Womens House...they would never be slaves again...

Then John took a Plane back to Paraguay...

My answer is they are both Inmoral...
Illegal? most likely (pending a trial) by the definition of the laws in Groenland...Did I mention that Rob's house was in Groenland?

Now Honorland your turn:
Question.....who are you to decide what is legal in Groenland? and what is not? ...after all you are not Governement of Groenland are you?

Unfortunatly......still you continue this sharade of logic by attempting to place greater control upon my answer........simply put I stand by my original statments.......and I will try to help you understand the principle behind it...
It is not my law nor anyone elses that determines right from wrong..I doubt seriously that many would even argue the validity of human right violations as being inherantly wrong. As for the legality refranced in the original post....the war in Iraq was NOT illegal it broke no laws nor did it break our laws which in truth is the deciding factor. A country still has the right to act as a soverign nation as long as it is not a periah to humanity. Saddams Iraq had a terroristic rule and therefor it had to be removed.

Rob

Good quote, but I must respectfully say that you ARE missing something, and that something is a whopper.

Please fill me in, if you like. :)

Do you care what your fellow Americans think about it? Because I voted
on paper and was told it wouldn't be counted for at least ten days.... next
day bush is declared the winner. So my vote and millions of others wasn't
even counted. That's cheating where I come from.

Asolum you have a lot of facts wrong.

To start we didn't invade Iraq to kill Saddam and expect terrorism to stop. If that was true we would have been gone.

On another note, as a United States Marine, your sympathy towards our troops dying is pointless because we don't care how you feel about it. We know when you joined the military that we run the risk of going to war, and we know the risk of death. Believe me the last thing we ask is for you to cry and tell the world your soldiers are dying. All we ask of, is to be remembered as people who died for their country.

War on Terror is a very difficult thing, and a lot of points you made are true. The thing is, you can't clean terrorism completely, but one thing you can do is put a leash on it. There is no other country who has the capabilities that America does to perform that task. Bush does not drag anyone into war. He asks of assistance so that as you say, "our troops wont be dying." When you say no, we don't care. We don't need your help but it would be of great use to us.

Do you care what your fellow Americans think about it? Because I voted
on paper and was told it wouldn't be counted for at least ten days.... next
day bush is declared the winner. So my vote and millions of others wasn't
even counted. That's cheating where I come from.

You seem to have no idea on the voting process yet you make comments towards a president.

All precincts report the day of the election. You have 10 days to recount and get a perfect number. If president A is running against B, and a state has 100,000 more votes for president A they wont even bother counting the rest because there wouldn't be enough votes to beat president A in the first place.

Iraq should not be viewed as a nation of terrorists because most of the Iraqi people were never friends of Saddam Hussein. At the same time, Hussein was just the kind of man who might ally himself with a clan of terrorists like Al Qaeda, and even if he didn’t ally himself with terrorists, he was a terrible man with a habit of robbing, murdering, and starving his own people.

Now, with respects to the deserving, I shall retire to my bed for the night.

Do you care what your fellow Americans think about it? Because I voted
on paper and was told it wouldn't be counted for at least ten days.... next
day bush is declared the winner. So my vote and millions of others wasn't
even counted. That's cheating where I come from.

Provisional ballot? that sucks, I was wondering how that was supose to work out with them declaring a winner before they counted all the ballots. I mean even if there weren't enough to let Kerry win they should have waited till they were all counted.

Psyker are you guys even informed that Kerry quit the day after the election knowing that he lost? Why would they continue to recount and split the country up.

You seem to have no idea on the voting process yet you make comments towards a president.

All precincts report the day of the election. You have 10 days to recount and get a perfect number. If president A is running against B, and a state has 100,000 more votes for president A they wont even bother counting the rest because there wouldn't be enough votes to beat president A in the first place.


Don't try to jerk me around & then insult me. The bottom line is Bush
cheated AGAIN!

....the war in Iraq was NOT illegal it broke no laws nor did it break our laws which in truth is the deciding factor....
That what John says.....see Jonh is from Paraguaystan...and Paraguaystan Law says: "its LEGAL to Burn other peoples Houses...as long as the houses are in another country".

Jonh says "our laws (Paraguaystan Laws) which in truth is the deciding factor...Allowed me to Legaly Burn Rob's house and the Women and whatever was inside" .

On another note, as a United States Marine, your sympathy towards our troops dying is pointless because we don't care how you feel about it.

Good thing, too, because i have no sympathy for united states marines dying, rather for my own countrymen who are dying alongside them. ;)

Also, i didnt claim you expected deposing saddam to stop terrorism, i just fail to see how it's even related to any war on terror. Saddam hussein wasn't a terrorist, and had no ties to Al-Quaeda

Most of my post was in relation to a previous one claiming that the rest of the world only felt any effect of Mr Bush's presidency if they were invaded, of course.

Putting a leash on terrorism is a fine objective, but if i recall the invasion of iraq has left not only the perfect vacuum of power in which for terrorism to develop, but has also given the terrorist recruiters the perfect fuel with which to do their job.

Terrorism has not been set back by recent events, noticeably.

Don't try to jerk me around & then insult me. The bottom line is Bush
cheated AGAIN!

denial is an ugly thing.

Psyker are you guys even informed that Kerry quit the day after the election knowing that he lost? Why would they continue to recount and split the country up.

Yeah he quit.... because he was pressured too. He had spent alot of money
on the election campaign.... he had lost his job. So when his rich wife was
told to tell him ( probly by the republican party ) to quit.... he did.


I'm pissed at him too for not standing up to her for his countries sake

Yes I know that as I AM an American. All I'm saying is that anyone who voted on a provisional ballot hasn't had their vote counted yet due to the investigations that are required to go into them in order to make sure the person is not cheating the system, and I feel they should have waited untill those votes were counted before declaring a winner, even if they couldn't have changed any thing for no other reason than that everyone should have a chance to have their vote counted.

On my final note, I have to get some rest for work tomorrow.

But from my own experience, my family and I were born in Moscow, Russia. I lived there for 7 years and I remember everything perfectly. It's easy to talk sh*t on America when you've lived here all your life or if you've never lived here. In Russia my dad was a constructor and he made crappy money. It was so bad that even back during the U.S.S.R. he made better money. We barely payed of money for a tiny apartment that was built during Stalin's dictator ship. My father was able to save enough money to move to America. We moved to Brooklyn, NY. My father was able to work as hard as he did in Russia, except in America if you work hard you'll be payed better than those that don't work as hard. My dad is a pretty wealthy man today and all because he started from scrap working 20 hours a day for car service and construction. I can tell you all that my family and I, the thing we cherish most and have the most pride in, is the fact that we are now citizens of this country. It makes me proud seeing my nationality on my passport and reading "United States of America." I just wanted you all to know that, from someone that moved from a country where he witnessed corrupt communism and democracy then American democracy. My father faught in the Soviet Afghanistan war and he takes no pride in it whatsoever. My family is all registered Republican and I guess you all might now why now.

Yes I know that as I AM an American. All I'm saying is that anyone who voted on a provisional ballot hasn't had their vote counted yet due to the investigations that are required to go into them in order to make sure the person is not cheating the system, and I feel they should have waited untill those votes were counted before declaring a winner, even if they couldn't have changed any thing for no other reason than that everyone should have a chance to have their vote counted.


My point exactly!

Don't try to jerk me around & then insult me. The bottom line is Bush
cheated AGAIN!

Then uh duh hmmmm.
WHY did Kerry give up? Do ya think maybe he knows somthing you don't?
There was no possible way for him to win.. Even if all the rest of the votes were for him it wouldn't have been enough...Have you ever heard of "A lesson in Futility"? thats all a recount would have been....Kerry knew that.
Get your head out of the sand.
Rob

Kormanthor is just an angry liberal who is in denial.

Yeah, he sure cheated in the first election I mean:

Recount #1: Bush
Recount #2: Bush
Recount #3: Bush

I mean, what the hell!!! It's obvious GORE won all 3 recounts!

That what John says.....see Jonh is from Paraguaystan...and Paraguaystan Law says: "its LEGAL to Burn other peoples Houses...as long as the houses are in another country".

Jonh says "our laws (Paraguaystan Laws) which in truth is the deciding factor...Allow me to Legaly Burn Rob's house and the Women and whatever was inside" .

You are starting to show your colors....I speak of justice for mankind and you want to continue this selfserving rambling of yours like it is some kind of mind fk on your part...an attempt to out think me due to your inflated sence of intellegence. I will not even continue a discussion with you until you address the real issues here.
Rob

Don't try to jerk me around & then insult me. The bottom line is Bush
cheated AGAIN!

He never insulted you, he just stated a plain fact.
If 'A' leads the election with 10 votes more than 'B' and there are just four more small paper votes in the hat, why bother counting the remaining four? Even if they all say 'B' it still won't be enough for 'B' to win. It's not cheating, it's basic mathmatics.

....
It is not my law nor anyone elses that determines right from wrong..I doubt seriously that many would even argue the validity of human right violations as being inherantly wrong. As for the legality refranced in the original post....the war in Iraq was NOT illegal it broke no laws nor did it break our laws which in truth is the deciding factor. A country still has the right to act as a soverign nation as long as it is not a periah to humanity. Saddams Iraq had a terroristic rule and therefor it had to be removed.

Rob

Hmm...what "human right violations"...

John's (Bush)? or Rob's (Saddam)?

you should really factor in "spoilage." to the issue as well as provisional votes.

I'm only recently familiar with the term, but aparently up to 3 per cent of the vote is voided, just thrown away, not recorded.

("sourced from http://gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=392&row=0 which isn't an article i endorse, let alone a conclusion i endorse. I am willing to believe Bush Won fairly.)

But i also believe that "spoilage" probably isn't invented.

first of all, being an american I myself am appalled by the arrogance of the American people. Appalled by the Bush administration's apparent lack of concern for diplomacy, and frustrated at the opinions I hear in reply to european criticism.

Not saying that I believe Hussein is a basket of fruit. or smells like roses. because he doesn't. Same for all terrorists. But to be so arrogant as Americans always are, we treat the march to war like we would treat the opening kickoff to a football game (or soccer game to those europeans out there). A wise man once said "the march to war should be treated like a funeral march" meaning: war is never pretty, necessary, yes, but neither side is inherently right or wrong. there is just violence, death, sadness and despair. on both sides.

I think Bush was wrong in snubbing some of our greatest allies in response to hesitation to go into Iraq. I would say the same thing about sending my son to a country with an insane dictator and his armies if I didn't believe whole-heartedly and without any doubt that it was absolutely vital. Bush gave into terrorism, got scared and looked for someone to blame. And the government didn't help to slow the "hype" of his paranoia by introducing this "terrorist alert system" and the sensationalism of the media did not slow the fear of small town america.

The truth is, Bush and his cronies are more than happy to use terrorism to their advantage....scare the populace...draw out the "War on terror" and keep the people controlled by fear...how can we worry about our completely slipping economy or the thousands of people dying of preventable causes like hunger in our own nation when the "enemy" is constantly thrown in our face! Not that I am in any way implying that Bush is into the terrorism facet, but what American politician is going to give away a gold mine of support for the actual good of the people?

Yeah he quit.... because he was pressured too. He had spent alot of money
on the election campaign.... he had lost his job. So when his rich wife was
told to tell him ( probly by the republican party ) to quit.... he did.


I'm pissed at him too for not standing up to her for his countries sake

Where in the world do you get your sence of reality....cause it aint in this one. your not just in denial it sounds like your actually making up senarios to support your delusions...you need serious psyc help. See someone SOON.
Rob

On my final note, I have to get some rest for work tomorrow.

But from my own experience, my family and I were born in Moscow, Russia. I lived there for 7 years and I remember everything perfectly. It's easy to talk sh*t on America when you've lived here all your life or if you've never lived here. In Russia my dad was a constructor and he made crappy money. It was so bad that even back during the U.S.S.R. he made better money. We barely payed of money for a tiny apartment that was built during Stalin's dictator ship. My father was able to save enough money to move to America. We moved to Brooklyn, NY. My father was able to work as hard as he did in Russia, except in America if you work hard you'll be payed better than those that don't work as hard. My dad is a pretty wealthy man today and all because he started from scrap working 20 hours a day for car service and construction. I can tell you all that my family and I, the thing we cherish most and have the most pride in, is the fact that we are now citizens of this country. It makes me proud seeing my nationality on my passport and reading "United States of America." I just wanted you all to know that, from someone that moved from a country where he witnessed corrupt communism and democracy then American democracy. My father faught in the Soviet Afghanistan war and he takes no pride in it whatsoever. My family is all registered Republican and I guess you all might now why now.

Well thats great.... I'm truely glad for you.... but just because your dreams have come true doesn't mean everyone else's has. Would you be glad for me
if my dreams came true but you were still living here as you did in Russia? No
I don't believe you would. People who come her efrom over seas get alot of help from our government that we never get. If I was able I would make sure that all people of the world had all their needs met at least. But, right here in
the US there are many children that still don't get enough to eat. In a country
thats supposed to be one of the richest in the world ... thats criminal.

You are starting to show your colors....I speak of justice for mankind and you want to continue this selfserving rambling of yours like it is some kind of mind fk on your part...an attempt to out think me due to your inflated sence of intellegence. I will not even continue a discussion with you until you address the real issues here.
Rob
The real issue issue here is that...you beleive that Your country's Laws are to Overrule all the other sovereign Countries Laws.

Just like John from Paraguaystan.

I mean...If you Burn soemone house in London, You should be tried in a British Court...according to British Law.

If you Vandalize a monument in Singapour, You should be tried and canned in a Singapour Court according to Singapor Law.

He never insulted you, he just stated a plain fact.
If 'A' leads the election with 10 votes more than 'B' and there are just four more small paper votes in the hat, why bother counting the remaining four? Even if they all say 'B' it still won't be enough for 'B' to win. It's not cheating, it's basic mathmatics.

Indeed, if the results are unchanged whether the votes all come out A or B, there is little reason to count them, mathematically speaking.

I do think, however, that the concept that your vote (whether it changes something or not) may not be counted at all, is likely to damage election turnout and voter dissatisfaction.

Where in the world do you get your sence of reality....cause it aint in this one. your not just in denial it sounds like your actually making up senarios to support your delusions...you need serious psyc help. See someone SOON.
Rob


Hey Rob why don't you kiss my white american ass. Now what other smart
ass thing do you have to say idiot.

Hey Rob why don't you kiss my white american ass.

Now now, lad. There's no call for that kind of language.

On my final note, I have to get some rest for work tomorrow.

But from my own experience, my family and I were born in Moscow, Russia. I lived there for 7 years and I remember everything perfectly. It's easy to talk sh*t on America when you've lived here all your life or if you've never lived here. In Russia my dad was a constructor and he made crappy money. It was so bad that even back during the U.S.S.R. he made better money. We barely payed of money for a tiny apartment that was built during Stalin's dictator ship. My father was able to save enough money to move to America. We moved to Brooklyn, NY. My father was able to work as hard as he did in Russia, except in America if you work hard you'll be payed better than those that don't work as hard. My dad is a pretty wealthy man today and all because he started from scrap working 20 hours a day for car service and construction. I can tell you all that my family and I, the thing we cherish most and have the most pride in, is the fact that we are now citizens of this country. It makes me proud seeing my nationality on my passport and reading "United States of America." I just wanted you all to know that, from someone that moved from a country where he witnessed corrupt communism and democracy then American democracy. My father faught in the Soviet Afghanistan war and he takes no pride in it whatsoever. My family is all registered Republican and I guess you all might now why now.

Thank God for You and Your family, truth is hard to come by these days....I for one appreciate your candid revelations.
Rob

He never insulted you, he just stated a plain fact.
If 'A' leads the election with 10 votes more than 'B' and there are just four more small paper votes in the hat, why bother counting the remaining four? Even if they all say 'B' it still won't be enough for 'B' to win. It's not cheating, it's basic mathmatics.


OK, I think what we have here is a misunderstanding as to what Kormanthor is talking about. He is NOT talking about wanting a recount. He is talking about how he, aparently, and many other voters wound up voting on provisional ballots for some reason or another. This means their votes won't be counted untill after they are investigated for legality. He is angry because the fact that since the race was called before these ballots were counted he and any one else who voted this way were robed of their voice in the future of this country. It dosn't mater if those votes would make a diference those people deserve to have their voices heard.

OK, I think what we have here is a misunderstanding as to what Kormanthor is talking about. He is NOT talking about wanting a recount. He is talking about how he, aparently, and many other voters wound up voting on provisional ballots for some reason or another. This means their votes won't be counted untill after they are investigated for legality. He is angry because the fact that since the race was called before these ballots were counted he and any one else who voted this way were robed of their voice in the future of this country. It dosn't mater if those votes would make a diference those people deserve to have their voices heard.


Exactly..... yet this is what I need to seek counciling for?

Indeed, if the results are unchanged whether the votes all come out A or B, there is little reason to count them, mathematically speaking.

I do think, however, that the concept that your vote (whether it changes something or not) may not be counted at all, is likely to damage election turnout and voter dissatisfaction.

Ah, yes. The principle of the thing. I can respect that. It's important that the voters feel that what they do matters.

Thank God for You and Your family, truth is hard to come by these days....I for one appreciate your candid revelations.
Rob


If nothing else is true Rob, I will aways tell you the truth even if you
don't like it. ....I for one don't appreciate your candid revelations.

OK, I think what we have here is a misunderstanding as to what Kormanthor is talking about. He is NOT talking about wanting a recount. He is talking about how he, aparently, and many other voters wound up voting on provisional ballots for some reason or another. This means their votes won't be counted untill after they are investigated for legality. He is angry because the fact that since the race was called before these ballots were counted he and any one else who voted this way were robed of their voice in the future of this country. It dosn't mater if those votes would make a diference those people deserve to have their voices heard.

To conclude this thought.......after all the get out the vote....etc. dont you think it would have been smart to have registered and then gone to your presinct to vote...If you got a provisional ballet in most cases not all, it was due to these reasons...if it mattered so much why not register in time and vote at your assigned place.
Rob

To conclude this thought.......after all the get out the vote....etc. dont you think it would have been smart to have registered and then gone to your presinct to vote...If you got a provisional ballet in most cases not all, it was due to these reasons...if it mattered so much why not register in time and vote at your assigned place.
Rob

I had to vote on a provisional ballot because I had just moved. I have been registered for years.

I think the Europeans also overlooked that a great number of Americans do not want to live in a European style nation. America is not Europe, and a lot of people like it that way. Yet the European attitude seemed to be: "If you don't choose the kind of leader we would you must be idiots."

I don't honestly think that the vote for Bush, was actually anti-Europe per se, but was rather a reaction to the monsterous arrogance of the Europeans. Also, now other countries are calling for America to reach out. This after nine months of calling our President stupid and dangerous, and sneering at half the population of the US. Maybe they should try reaching out, that's usually how these things work.

Hehe, it's pretty interesting how you americans think of us.
It's not that we won't be your friends if you choose Bush instead of Kerry for president ... but the fact is, that Bush treated us europeans (well, just the nations who wouldn't collaborate in you stupid war) very rudely. He doesn't want allies for life, he just needs them when he goes to war (which is a stupid one as i said before). That isn't the kind of attitude that makes you fell all worm inside when he is re-elected ...

And BTW, all the congratulations he gets from all over the world (including Europe) are just formal ... 90% of all leaders would gladly see Kerry in his place.

Exactly..... yet this is what I need to seek counciling for?

Dont try to flip this...you were pissed off and saying bush stole the election again and even tryed to create a senario envolving kerrys wife.......you didnt say you just wanted your vote counted even though it would have been futile.
Rob

Dont try to flip this...you were pissed off and saying bush stole the election again and even tryed to create a senario envolving kerrys wife.......you didnt say you just wanted your vote counted even though it would have been futile.
Rob


Women, the real force of evil in the universe.

;)

Hehe, it's pretty interesting how you americans think of us.
It's not that we won't be your friends if you choose Bush instead of Kerry for president ... but the fact is, that Bush treated us europeans (well, just the nations who wouldn't collaborate in you stupid war) very rudely. He doesn't want allies for life, he just needs them when he goes to war (which is a stupid one as i said before). That isn't the kind of attitude that makes you fell all worm inside when he is re-elected ...

And BTW, all the congratulations he gets from all over the world (including Europe) are just formal ... 90% of all leaders would gladly see Kerry in his place.

First of all Swampystan, bush is an equal opportunity offender.... he's just
as rude to us as he has ever been to you all. Besides only half the country
is responsible for his re election.... I voted for Kerry.

I had to vote on a provisional ballot because I had just moved. I have been registered for years.

sorry to hear that, yet to be so demeaning of bush saying he stole the election when it could have gone no other way.....next time say what you really mean..not just some propoganda bs.
Rob

First of all Swampystan, bush is an equal opportunity offender.... he's just
as rude to us as he has ever been to you all. Besides only half the country
is responsible for his re election.... I voted for Kerry.

glad to hear it ;)

It's interesting though, i thought the ballots from the soldiers in iraq could give a boost but what happened was just the opposite ... i don't know if your army consists of morons or what to re-elect a moron even bigger, which will continue a war :) I don't mean to offend any of the soldiers down there, they're just doing their job but still ...

sorry to hear that, yet to be so demeaning of bush saying he stole the election when it could have gone no other way.....next time say what you really mean..not just some propoganda bs.
Rob


Were you born an idiot ..... or do you have to work at it ? Is this clear
enough for you Rob?

Dont try to flip this...you were pissed off and saying bush stole the election again and even tryed to create a senario envolving kerrys wife.......you didnt say you just wanted your vote counted even though it would have been futile.
Rob


Ya rob has a point there.

The real issue issue here is that...you beleive that Your country's Laws are to Overrule all the other sovereign Countries Laws.

Just like John from Paraguaystan.

I mean...If you Burn soemone house in London, You should be tried in a British Court...according to British Law.

If you Vandalize a monument in Singapour, You should be tried and canned in a Singapour Court according to Singapor Law.

Guess you missed the point....sorry that you cant understand the need to try and fix the wrongs in this world........its not their law that makes it right or wrong nor is it our view that we overrule all other sovereign contries...finish reading my statement.........if a country is a periah to humanity it should be dealt with...just because their leader says its ok to rape women and children doesnt make it ok.
Rob

glad to hear it ;)

It's interesting though, i thought the ballots from the soldiers in iraq could give a boost but what happened was just the opposite ... i don't know if your army consists of morons or what to re-elect a moron even bigger, which will continue a war :) I don't mean to offend any of the soldiers down there, they're just doing their job but still ...

Well done. You just proved that stupidity knows no nationality.

Were you born an idiot ..... or do you have to work at it ? Is this clear
enough for you Rob?

Crystal...you have alot of anger...and possibly some other issues as well..I wasnt just kidding when I said you should see someone.
Rob

Don't you see that it was partly the contempt that Europeans hold Bush in that helped get him re-elected. If they had just bitten their tongue instead of running round calling Bush and Americans idiots, it might have been a very close election with a different result.

The condesending manner of the Guardian's letter writing campaign, coupled with the sneers of European intellectuals probably did more than anything else to win Bush the whitehouse.

Now for old times sake gigatron, call him "chimp" just one more time :)

Since when does any american citicen care for what a non amercan citizen says?

I mean, honestly, nobody really expected that those "Bush and everyone who voted for him is an idiot" calls would even reach the Bush fan community...

Were you born an idiot ..... or do you have to work at it ? Is this clear
enough for you Rob?

i actually haven't seen anything that would validate that question, but your statment sure make you sound like one.

Lets recap what you said

Why did kerry quit
It was probably a conspiracey with him being broke and his rich wife being a republican forcing him to, and bush cheated. Did i miss anything?

Then you said you were only angry because your voice didn't get heard even though it wouldn't have mattered. Tell me exacltey what is the link between these two statments?

Well I'm tired of arguing with a group of numnuts that has no clue of
whats happening. Its too bad that your kids will be the ones paying off the
deficit that our wonderful president is running up.



Don't call me .... I'll call you if I have a need of you.

Crystal...you have alot of anger...and possibly some other issues as well..I wasnt just kidding when I said you should see someone.
Rob

Of course he's angery I'd be angry to if I had voted on a provisional ballot,and as a result basicaly had my vote ignored as irelevent just, because the Dems decided to concede. Personaly I don't think they should ever concede they should wait untill all the people have spoken and there is a concrete result in.

Well I'm tired of arguing with a group of numnuts that has no clue of
whats happening. Its too bad that your kids will be the ones paying off the
deficit that our wonderful president is running up.



Don't call me .... I'll call you if I have a need of you.
if you call me i'm hanging up :mp5:

Of course he's angery I'd be angry to if I had voted on a provisional ballot,and as a result basicaly had my vote ignored as irelevent just, because the Dems decided to concede. Personaly I don't think they should ever concede they should wait untill all the people have spoken and there is a concrete result in.

Point is there was a concrete result that wouldn't have changed...it is a pointless expense not just in taxpayers money which he doesnt seem to think we should spend any more of but the uncertanty of waiting plays havok with our stock market creating problems of its own...why do either when the result is already known...Kerry conceded because he knew he lost fair and square and he had the decency not to drag our contry through a mess when it was not needed.
Rob

Of course he's angery I'd be angry to if I had voted on a provisional ballot,and as a result basicaly had my vote ignored as irelevent just, because the Dems decided to concede. Personaly I don't think they should ever concede they should wait untill all the people have spoken and there is a concrete result in.

ya thats understandable but you really have to read his first post which started it. I've heard more logical rants from crazy people.

if you call me i'm hanging up :mp5:

LOL Ita, you crack me up.
Excellent come back!!

Point is there was a concrete result that wouldn't have changed...it is a pointless expense not just in taxpayers money which he doesnt seem to think we should spend any more of but the uncertanty of waiting plays havok with our stock market creating problems of its own...why do either when the result is already known...Kerry conceded because he knew he lost fair and square and he had the decency not to drag our contry through a mess when it was not needed.
Rob


The counting of peoples votes is never a "pointless expense" it is a right of every citizen in this nation eligible to vote who makes the efort to vote.

ya thats understandable but you really have to read his first post which started it. I've heard more logical rants from crazy people.

And again!
Rob :D

And again!
Rob :D
Alright well i'm headed out for the night. It's been fun. It's been real. But it hasn't been real fun.

I think i'll leave you with quote from a peace lover.

"I said make love, not war"
Chef

The counting of peoples votes is never a "pointless expense" it is a right of every citizen in this nation eligible to vote who makes the efort to vote.

Ok lets not start picking things apart...you know what I ment....pointless refered to the fact that the result would not have changed....do we hold the whole nation hostage to count a vote that could not possibly have an affect on the outcome? When other than in 2000 have we had issues like this..our system of voting has been going on like this for years...true laws have changed it insist that everyone have the opportunity to vote even if for some reason they are not properly registered, the reason for a provisional ballot, yet each one of these must be authenticated and then counted, if the result would be the same...why? Just to tell those who voted for the looser how bad he lost? Why not just drop it as Kerry did and move on...the contry has much more pressing matters to deal with and should get on with business.
Rob

Well folks I too must see the back of my eyelids...another day tomorrow.
Have a great evening.
Rob

Alright well i'm headed out for the night. It's been fun. It's been real. But it hasn't been real fun.

I think i'll leave you with quote from a peace lover.

"I said make love, not war"
Chef
Shagadelic :D

Thank you, liberals, for squirming so much. You have given me a God like erection which will never go away, ever. When they put me in my coffin, they will not be able to close the lid, because as I die, I will remember how much George Walker Bush's 3,500,000 vote win made you socialist, anti-gun, pro-abortion, pro-taxes, anti-Christianity ass clowns pinch off solid bricks of poo stained diamond. Thank you for crying so loudly, thank you for finally making good on that "I'm moving to Canada" promise, thank you for taking the side of Kim Jong Il, the Islamo Fascists, and the entire greaseball population of France. Thank you, Michael Moore, for being such a tubby bitch who everyone wants to listen to but no one wants to f*ck. Thank you, Janeane Girafalo, for being such a tubby bitch who no one wants to listen to nor f*ck. Thank you, George Soros, for blowing 27,000,000 dollars on Jack Sh*t. Thank you, Democratic Underground, for being such a huge reminder to conservatives and moderates why you black helicopter watching idiots can't be trusted with American policy. Thank you, Canada, for being a shining example of the pussy, helpless nation that America would be if we let John Kerry win. Thank you, male homosexuals, for parading in the streets of New York in forty degree weather while wearing a rooster feather head dress and a thong. Thank you, female homosexuals, for appointing figure heads to your causes like Rosie "You got cancer because you're a bad person" O'Donnel and Ellen "Did you know that I'm gay? I'm gay. Seriously, I'm gay. Did you know that I'm gay? I am. I'm gay, gay, gay. Disney hates gays" Degeneres. Thank you, pro-abortionists, for displaying your preference of irresponsibility over humanity.

Liberals: your idiotic, pandering, immoral agendas lost you the house, the senate, and the presidency. It's going to lose you the Supreme Court very soon. That's the executive, legislative and judicial branches. I'd bet you're going to lose more seats in the midterm come 2002. Hillary Clinton is a bad joke come 2008, but she will win your silly little primaries, so expect at least eight more years of a flat tax that doesn't unfairly take advantage of the people who achieved the American dream nor the people who are achieving it, eight more years of forcing down dictatorships that the UN is too weak to take care of, and eight more years of keeping America as the strongest nation in the world.

Like it or not, this is fact: George Bush is the greatest president of the twenty first century, and it will remain that way for at least another four years. Welcome to the new republic. Land of the free, home of my perpetual hardon.

Thank you.

war.violence.killing.harming another.for any reason other than defense of the extended self(ie friends/family/loved ones/you) is inherently wrong.i am ashamed to be an american,i am ashamed of my president.and im ashamed of all the soldiers who willing murder those who posed no threat to them when the slaughter began.

Boioioioioing.

Hi, i'm a Brit who watched the US elections with interest.

A lot of posts have gone on about european anti-Bush feelings, Just a few points that I have found out via the web on this.

1, Bush did not want non US citizens to see his web site, so he blocked non us DNS searches (we still could visit, we just had to put in the IP. So his IT guy aren't so hot either)
2, Did any see Fareinhit 911? OK it was biased but there is only so much that can be coincedence
3, Read what Bush says, he keeps switching as he's talking. Almost like someone is prompting hi.
4, Bush has put in more anti free trade regulation than almost any other president
5, We don't like Kerry more than Bush, we just like to see the guy actually making the decisions stand up in front.
6, Bush's policies, seem to be all short term. No to Kyoto, Don't worry about debt.....

Anyway, as a general point We LIKE Americans, youre refreshingly focused on your own country.

FYI Blair can't wait to try to sort out the rest of the world, either diplomatically or not.
Difference is he is SMART, as well as self centred, money grabbing, Very good at hiding the unpopular truths and...... Sorry, personal bugbear there.

So while Bush being back is not good, We have our own problems.

There must be a better way, any suggestions.
:confused: :mp5:

Thank you, liberals, for squirming so much. You have given me a God like erection which will never go away, ever. When they put me in my coffin, they will not be able to close the lid, because as I die, I will remember how much George Walker Bush's 3,500,000 vote win made you socialist, anti-gun, pro-abortion, pro-taxes, anti-Christianity ass clowns pinch off solid bricks of poo stained diamond. Thank you for crying so loudly, thank you for finally making good on that "I'm moving to Canada" promise, thank you for taking the side of Kim Jong Il, the Islamo Fascists, and the entire greaseball population of France. Thank you, Michael Moore, for being such a tubby bitch who everyone wants to listen to but no one wants to f*ck. Thank you, Janeane Girafalo, for being such a tubby bitch who no one wants to listen to nor f*ck. Thank you, George Soros, for blowing 27,000,000 dollars on Jack Sh*t. Thank you, Democratic Underground, for being such a huge reminder to conservatives and moderates why you black helicopter watching idiots can't be trusted with American policy. Thank you, Canada, for being a shining example of the pussy, helpless nation that America would be if we let John Kerry win. Thank you, male homosexuals, for parading in the streets of New York in forty degree weather while wearing a rooster feather head dress and a thong. Thank you, female homosexuals, for appointing figure heads to your causes like Rosie "You got cancer because you're a bad person" O'Donnel and Ellen "Did you know that I'm gay? I'm gay. Seriously, I'm gay. Did you know that I'm gay? I am. I'm gay, gay, gay. Disney hates gays" Degeneres. Thank you, pro-abortionists, for displaying your preference of irresponsibility over humanity.

Liberals: your idiotic, pandering, immoral agendas lost you the house, the senate, and the presidency. It's going to lose you the Supreme Court very soon. That's the executive, legislative and judicial branches. I'd bet you're going to lose more seats in the midterm come 2002. Hillary Clinton is a bad joke come 2008, but she will win your silly little primaries, so expect at least eight more years of a flat tax that doesn't unfairly take advantage of the people who achieved the American dream nor the people who are achieving it, eight more years of forcing down dictatorships that the UN is too weak to take care of, and eight more years of keeping America as the strongest nation in the world.

Like it or not, this is fact: George Bush is the greatest president of the twenty first century, and it will remain that way for at least another four years. Welcome to the new republic. Land of the free, home of my perpetual hardon.

Thank you.


That was quite amusing.... especially the part about bush being the
(cough) greatest president(cough) of the twenty first century. Really I
think you should go into doing stand up....Really.... NOT! :rolleyes: :headbang:

FYI Blair can't wait to try to sort out the rest of the world, either diplomatically or not.
Difference is he is SMART, as well as self centred, money grabbing, Very good at hiding the unpopular truths and...... Sorry, personal bugbear there.

Like John Howard... (Let's out her own personal bugbear) Only Australia are kinda international lightweights, so he's a little like an annoying chihuahua, to the rest of the world that is.
Should we fear the smart ones more?

We can but hope that bush continues to rape the U.S. economy to the point at which it will be unable to afford to wage badly concieved and executed wars in too many other countries. As the perpetuated state of emergency continues we shall see if all these neo-conservatives stick to their guns (excuse the pun) and still wish to suck on his dangly bits as civic freedoms evaporate at a rate of knots.

America didn't look great to the rest of the world as it was. Bush hasn't helped it one bit...

I got two people to change their vote from Bush to Kerry. One to change from Bush to Nader... I guess one person can't change the world. Damnit I tried!

Afraid?......you will be....You Will Be!

Thank you, liberals, for squirming so much. You have given me a God like erection which will never go away, ever. When they put me in my coffin, they will not be able to close the lid, because as I die, I will remember how much George Walker Bush's 3,500,000 vote win made you socialist, anti-gun, pro-abortion, pro-taxes, anti-Christianity ass clowns pinch off solid bricks of poo stained diamond. Thank you for crying so loudly, thank you for finally making good on that "I'm moving to Canada" promise, thank you for taking the side of Kim Jong Il, the Islamo Fascists, and the entire greaseball population of France. Thank you, Michael Moore, for being such a tubby bitch who everyone wants to listen to but no one wants to f*ck. Thank you, Janeane Girafalo, for being such a tubby bitch who no one wants to listen to nor f*ck. Thank you, George Soros, for blowing 27,000,000 dollars on Jack Sh*t. Thank you, Democratic Underground, for being such a huge reminder to conservatives and moderates why you black helicopter watching idiots can't be trusted with American policy. Thank you, Canada, for being a shining example of the pussy, helpless nation that America would be if we let John Kerry win. Thank you, male homosexuals, for parading in the streets of New York in forty degree weather while wearing a rooster feather head dress and a thong. Thank you, female homosexuals, for appointing figure heads to your causes like Rosie "You got cancer because you're a bad person" O'Donnel and Ellen "Did you know that I'm gay? I'm gay. Seriously, I'm gay. Did you know that I'm gay? I am. I'm gay, gay, gay. Disney hates gays" Degeneres. Thank you, pro-abortionists, for displaying your preference of irresponsibility over humanity.

Liberals: your idiotic, pandering, immoral agendas lost you the house, the senate, and the presidency. It's going to lose you the Supreme Court very soon. That's the executive, legislative and judicial branches. I'd bet you're going to lose more seats in the midterm come 2002. Hillary Clinton is a bad joke come 2008, but she will win your silly little primaries, so expect at least eight more years of a flat tax that doesn't unfairly take advantage of the people who achieved the American dream nor the people who are achieving it, eight more years of forcing down dictatorships that the UN is too weak to take care of, and eight more years of keeping America as the strongest nation in the world.

Like it or not, this is fact: George Bush is the greatest president of the twenty first century, and it will remain that way for at least another four years. Welcome to the new republic. Land of the free, home of my perpetual hardon.

Thank you.

Bush is the ONLY president of the twenty first century you NOB.

The IRONIC thing is....the states that pay MORE in taxes to support out of state federal programs voted kerry...whereas the gripes about the "tax and spend" liberals come primarily from the red states...who garner more in federal tax money than they contribute due to the shite state of their economies.

Like John Howard... (Let's out her own personal bugbear) Only Australia are kinda international lightweights, so he's a little like an annoying chihuahua, to the rest of the world that is.
Should we fear the smart ones more?

No, Just those that can't see through it.

no WWI was an Austrian prince and a hungarian patriot, (or the other way around) that sparked that war but yah it was germany in WWII

What sparked World War I was the assassination of Austro-Hungarian Archduke Franz Ferdinand Hapsburg by Serbian nationalist Gavrilo Princip (so you were partially right). There are other factors, like the German-British arms race, but the catalyst was Princip's shot.

As for Germany's role...I'll have to agree with Gigatron that in World War I Germany was not the whole story. Technically, "the Austro-Hungarians started it" with Ferdinand's assassination, so you can't blame the Germans for starting WWI. Plus, Europe had polarized itself for three decades prior to the war- they just needed something, like Princip's shot, that would make the two sides snap and collide into war.

World War II...different matter. That was all Adolf Hitler. Hitler's unilateral and highly offensive foreign policy started WWII (Britain and France "guaranteed" the existance of Poland and Hitler's invasion violated that arrangement). True, the Germans were upset at the disadvantageous Versailles Treaty and wanted someone who could lead them back to strength, but Hitler clearly started WWII, unlike WWI where the Austro-Hungarians did.

Bush is the ONLY president of the twenty first century you NOB.

Doesn't really take away anything from my point, does it? And if "nob" is the best that you can come up with, please move to freakin' Ireland where that word means something.

The IRONIC thing is....the states that pay MORE in taxes to support out of state federal programs voted kerry...whereas the gripes about the "tax and spend" liberals come primarily from the red states...who garner more in federal tax money than they contribute due to the shite state of their economies.

Ahhh, yeesss... That's the stuff. Now say something like, "I can't believe that we lost," or, "I am ashamed that I am an American." Say it for Daddy, say it! Ungh, now quote me some Ohio county voter statistics and highlight the African American demographics in Lucas! OH, GOD, TELL ME THAT BUSH IS WORSE THAN HITLER! YES, YES, YES! WHAT'S THE NAME OF THE INDEPENDENT PARTY CANDIDATE WHO YOU CAN'T BLAME THIS LOSS ON? WHAT'S HIS NAME? WHAT'S HIS NAME, BITCH?

***uff

**hheeefff

UuuuuuuUHGHHGHNNGHHHHHHHARGH! Towel, towel, towel! I need a towel!

Crystal...you have alot of anger...and possibly some other issues as well..I wasnt just kidding when I said you should see someone.
Rob


I was kiddin either when I told you what you could do earlier....

Since when does any american citicen care for what a non amercan citizen says?

I mean, honestly, nobody really expected that those "Bush and everyone who voted for him is an idiot" calls would even reach the Bush fan community...

That makes him alright I guess...huh. Sadly your right, he won't hear
because he truely doesn't care about America or its people other then
the top 1% of influencial people. You know like the corporate CEO's that
contributed all the money to his re election campaign fund. The ones he is
giving a tax break to for off shoring american jobs... yep,true genius at work,
definately a president to be PROUD of.

i actually haven't seen anything that would validate that question, but your statment sure make you sound like one.

Lets recap what you said

Why did kerry quit
It was probably a conspiracey with him being broke and his rich wife being a republican forcing him to, and bush cheated. Did i miss anything?

Then you said you were only angry because your voice didn't get heard even though it wouldn't have mattered. Tell me exacltey what is the link between these two statments?


You figure it out sense your the genius and I am supposedly the idiot. :p

Doesn't really take away anything from my point, does it? And if "nob" is the best that you can come up with, please move to freakin' Ireland where that word means something.

Actually it does, i can say "Bush is the WORST president of the twenty first century" and its just as freaking accurate.



Ahhh, yeesss... That's the stuff. Now say something like, "I can't believe that we lost," or, "I am ashamed that I am an American." Say it for Daddy, say it! Ungh, now quote me some Ohio county voter statistics and highlight the African American demographics in Lucas! OH, GOD, TELL ME THAT BUSH IS WORSE THAN HITLER! YES, YES, YES! WHAT'S THE NAME OF THE INDEPENDENT PARTY CANDIDATE WHO YOU CAN'T BLAME THIS LOSS ON? WHAT'S HIS NAME? WHAT'S HIS NAME, BITCH?

***uff

**hheeefff

UuuuuuuUHGHHGHNNGHHHHHHHARGH! Towel, towel, towel! I need a towel!

Actually I can believe we lost..i never really had much faith for a Kerry victory to begin with. No im not ashamed to be American, im very proud of it...disappointed in the direction the country is headed but a little hard work will drag it back to the middle of the road again. As for that...its a matter of public record....I could drag up the encyclopaedia stats and post it all up, but frankly im not that vested in this "argument" if you can call a forum discussion where one side throws a rant that brings no new points to the field then "mimes" sexual climax at the other one.

if you call me i'm hanging up :mp5:

Bush genius at work

Point is there was a concrete result that wouldn't have changed...it is a pointless expense not just in taxpayers money which he doesnt seem to think we should spend any more of but the uncertanty of waiting plays havok with our stock market creating problems of its own...why do either when the result is already known...Kerry conceded because he knew he lost fair and square and he had the decency not to drag our contry through a mess when it was not needed.
Rob


Your so full of shit

Your so full of shit
Actually he makes a pretty good point. Bush had this one. Hell i voted for kerry i and i saw it.

Ok lets not start picking things apart...you know what I ment....pointless refered to the fact that the result would not have changed....do we hold the whole nation hostage to count a vote that could not possibly have an affect on the outcome? When other than in 2000 have we had issues like this..our system of voting has been going on like this for years...true laws have changed it insist that everyone have the opportunity to vote even if for some reason they are not properly registered, the reason for a provisional ballot, yet each one of these must be authenticated and then counted, if the result would be the same...why? Just to tell those who voted for the looser how bad he lost? Why not just drop it as Kerry did and move on...the contry has much more pressing matters to deal with and should get on with business.
Rob

Your definately right rob.... George W has four more years to run our
economy into the ground, while he raises the deficit a few more trillion dollars
starting World War 3.

We'll see how much you hate America when your homeless mom's and dad's die trying to bring you to this country.

I fail to see how Socialism kills less than Capitalism, but hey if you believe that the NHS doesn't save lives then you go ahead...
The fact is, whether America is the 'greatest' country on earth, and by that I mean most advanced and with a stable economy it doesn't mean that everything it does is right infact some things about the U.S and what it has done are unbelievable and you swagger in saying that the U.N is wrong, an institution designed to promote equality, says alot about the U.S huh?

Back the World War Two which may have been addressed on a previous page I'm uncertain as I haven't read every single page. The fact is the U.S wasn't going to fight until they were attacked, the country which now claims to be The Force For Good in the world didn't even attack Hitler until Japan bombed them, pathetic!

Back to more previous points, whether people in the U.S like it or not you're not infallible, infact I think Vietnam proves that atleast.
And you attacked Vietnam because one side was Communist and God forbid (I'm an agnostic but nice term huh?) that any country support a system of government where everybody is equal, that would be a terrible crime against humanity!
You can't invade countries because they disagree with you, just because you have big guns pointed at Europe doesn't make Europe evil, it just means that we live in a nuclear age, and guess what the U.S aren't always the 'good-guys' they're just like any other country like the U.K, France, Germany...
-Ross

Doesn't really take away anything from my point, does it? And if "nob" is the best that you can come up with, please move to freakin' Ireland where that word means something.



Ahhh, yeesss... That's the stuff. Now say something like, "I can't believe that we lost," or, "I am ashamed that I am an American." Say it for Daddy, say it! Ungh, now quote me some Ohio county voter statistics and highlight the African American demographics in Lucas! OH, GOD, TELL ME THAT BUSH IS WORSE THAN HITLER! YES, YES, YES! WHAT'S THE NAME OF THE INDEPENDENT PARTY CANDIDATE WHO YOU CAN'T BLAME THIS LOSS ON? WHAT'S HIS NAME? WHAT'S HIS NAME, BITCH?


***uff


**hheeefff

UuuuuuuUHGHHGHNNGHHHHHHHARGH! Towel, towel, towel! I need a towel!

Could someone get him his meds before he loses it totally?

Actually he makes a pretty good point. Bush had this one. Hell i voted for kerry i and i saw it.

You being the expert right?

You being the expert right?


Nope, just being someone who actually watched the election closely on three different sites (Cnn Fox news and BBC world if you must know) And noted that bush was reliably up in ohio throughout most of the tallying. As he took florida...if he took ohio it nigh guaranteed his victory...and it was fairly certain it would go to him. (in my mind anyway)