NationStates Jolt Archive

How can America claim itself to be the land of the free when it oppresses so many peoples' rights and civil liberties?

First banning Gay marriages, how is that freedom, allowing one group of people to marry and another group to not? Before you quote the bible rubbish, don't, that book is so contridictory and biggotted it's laughable.
If America is truely "the land of the free" then surely they would allow homosexuals to marry each other and have the same rights and entitlements which marriage grants people. instead of treating homosexuals are second class citerzens?

Besides ins't Dick Cheney's daughter gay? It seems a rather odd thing to me that her father is vice President to a homophobic President who would probably give Dick's daughter to the bible-bashing south for stoneing and witch burning.

Another point, Women in America also seem to be kept down by the men, for example abortion, it is a womans body and therefore her right to choose if she wants to get rid of the baby or not, it is not up to the state or even the church to decided if she is allowed it or not! What if the woman comes from a poor background? (and in America I hear some areas have nearly third world poverty) What if the baby is going to be seriously disabled? What if she was raped? What if the baby is putting the mother's life at risk or the baby wouldn't survive the birth? It is just another example of White "American" Males trying to keep down anyone who isn't one of them.

I could go on with examples

Alright. Today's american government have a few minor things preventing them from utter civil rights. I too reckon that government should leave people the hell alone.

However, before you go bashing the USA, take a look at other countries in the world. Citizens of the united states are pretty free people, compared with the people of, say, cuba or korea, to name a few extremes. Hell, even my british government poke their nose in way more than the yanks do. Just listen to a couple of parlimentary transcripts - those bastards are banning stuff and making pointless regulations all the time.

The fact is, america's written constitution and its generally freedom loving denizens tend to protect its citizens from any major civil rights infringements, with a few exceptions which might be made better, but the point is it's not like america is some tyrannical monster brutally commanding the lives of its people.

"The land of the free" is a 200 year old propaganda catch-phrase.
It doesn't mean anything. Freedom doesn't mean anything. How come some people have not got over it yet?

It's an incomplete thought. America is the 'Land of the Free to make a bajillion dollars unfettered by Government'.

Did you not get the memo?

If you want to know how free the US is, you should leave the western world for a couple of weeks.

A nice weekend in Syria, an adventurous holiday in Congo, a religious trip to China, a political study in Northern Corea...

You should read books about people who travel around the world very much. There's a good book from a German who travelled (and still travels) through all parts of the world. His insights are blunt, but true.

You can get arrested for nothing just because the "policeman" is bored.

You say, this can happen in the US, too?

Maybe, I don't know. But outside the western world nobody CARES about stuff like that.

It's very easy to insult a nation when you don't like. If you say the US isn't the land of the free - please tell me, which one is? It will be easy to find stuff about this land.

If you want to know how free the US is, you should leave the western world for a couple of weeks.

A nice weekend in Syria, an adventurous holiday in Congo, a religious trip to China, a political study in Northern Corea...

You should read books about people who travel around the world very much. There's a good book from a German who travelled (and still travels) through all parts of the world. His insights are blunt, but true.

You can get arrested for nothing just because the "policeman" is bored.

You say, this can happen in the US, too?

Maybe, I don't know. But outside the western world nobody CARES about stuff like that.Try getting to the US as a mexican with no money for instance.

It's very easy to insult a nation when you don't like. If you say the US isn't the land of the free - please tell me, which one is? It will be easy to find stuff about this land.
No other nation claimed to be the land of the free. And I agree with you the US is no worse, but more arrogant than its neightbors.

but the point is it's not like america is some tyrannical monster brutally commanding the lives of its people.

Unless you're gay.

It is not. This is a common mistake. America never has claimed to be the 'land of the free.' It actually claims to be the 'land of the free to drink toilet water' but people always forget the end, squiggle.


Yours,
Mr. Luxury Yacht (It is spelt Luxury Yacht but is actually pronounced Throatwobbler Mangrove)

Unless you're gay.

As soon as you see gays treated as Jews were in Nazi Germany, we'll talk about brutal rule. Until then, this is all exaggeration.

Unless you're gay.

Or black.

Or a woman.

Or muslim.

Anyone else?

Or black. Or a woman.

Yeah Oprah sure isn't free...

Try getting to the US as a mexican with no money for instance.

a large number of Mexicans and other Central Americans arrive in the US illegally on a routine basis. If you want to get into the US bad enough, there a plenty of ways and plenty of people do.


No other nation claimed to be the land of the free. And I agree with you the US is no worse, but more arrogant than its neightbors.

I don't know about no other nation claiming that. However, I know the US is the number one destination for immigrants everywhere.

Or black.

Or a woman.

Or muslim.

Anyone else?
A non-US citizen

I don't know about no other nation claiming that. However, I know the US is the number one destination for immigrants everywhere.
It's Iran.

Unless you're gay.

I won't argue that Gays and Lesbians got a bum deal on Tuesday. Personally, I think they should have the right to get married, get divorced and taken to the cleaners by their spouses as everyone else.

You aren't persecuated under the law however, just denied privilages others are given because of general rules of law and society that date back to when law and society began. In most places in the US you might be whispered about, but will generally be left alone. That isn't persecuation under the law, that is people not minding their own damn business.

If things were really bad, we would be looking at how homosexuals were treated in the Middle Ages or Nazi Germany. That is real persecuation, and at least you don't have to face that.

Keep plugging away, eventually enough attitudes will change in enough people so that you get what you want. Look how things have changed in the last 30 years, and how many people under 30 are not opposed to Gay marriage.

You will get what you want in the end.

Constitutionally the USA is a pretty free country.
Due to tradition it's not.
I vote we eat the lawyers!

I'm a Canadian...we don't have a catch phrase like "Land of the Free", but I certainly feel free to express my opinions, support gay marriage, protest (though the cops do love to beat on us at times) and generally live my life without the fear of unreasonable government intervention. I think what offends me, personally, about that phrase, "Land of the Free", or "Leader of the Free World", is that despite it's protestations to the contrary, the U.S HAS NOT consistantly supported freedom in other countries. Dictatorships were much preferred (those phrases were in use during the Cold War too) since they were "better than communism", and also really good for business (providing stability and economic liberalisation). So change those phrases to, "Land of the Free for Americans ONLY, and you'll get democracy when WE feel like letting you have it".

I don't blame Americans for everything their country has done, just as I hope you don't blame ME for Celine Dionne:). It's just that you're leaders like to take things to extremes and talk in black and white terms about "Good" and "Evil". Things aren't that simple. Just once, I would like a U.S President to stand up and admit the terrible things the U.S has been party to. Say, "Yes, we did this, and we're sorry, and we are working hard to make sure it doesn't happen again." That's honesty, but I know (even here) that honesty is in short supply among politicians.

As soon as you see gays treated as Jews were in Nazi Germany, we'll talk about brutal rule. Until then, this is all exaggeration.

Tell that to Matthew Shepard.

Hate crimes are stupid people acting out, not government sponsored killing.

The US is a highly free nation, the examples the thread founder listed have problems.

The first issue of gay marriage bans are unique. Often times these are challenged in federal courts. And notably the one in Ohio will probably be gotten rid of because it is too vague. This is just a random fad type thing.

The second point involving abortion is frankly, quite wrong. There is no ban on any type of abortion, no supreme court is going to overturn Roe v. Wade anytime soon. The partial birth abortion ban was overturned in the last few days by a lower court.

AS somebody who has earned the privilege of US Citizenship and lived in 3 other countries for more than 5 years each I would make the following comments.

1. If you don't live in the US you know nothing about the country. So don't give ignorant commentaries based on what you have read in the papers in your country.
2. If you live in the US and get your info from less than 3 sources including one you completely disagree with you are limited in your understanding of what most other people believe.
3. When Americans debate freedom and complain of losing it, they are debating such fine details of the concept that the rest of the world doesn't understand. Sure there are exceptions. Those exceptions are the rule for most other countries.

So lets stop bashing our own country because those that don't live here or don't make a genuine effort to understand the diversity that exists in this enormous affluent population are missing the point and drawing wrong conclusions about all groups in the debate.

This week the majority of the voting population made choices. If you took just that group you would get and equal amount of diversity and emotion.

Great country, don't knock it. Lets make it better.

in america if you say "I love comunists" you'll probabily be arrested, or not if you are beaten up before arrested ... just a thought

How can America claim itself to be the land of the free when it oppresses so many peoples' rights and civil liberties?

First banning Gay marriages, how is that freedom, allowing one group of people to marry and another group to not? Before you quote the bible rubbish, don't, that book is so contridictory and biggotted it's laughable.
If America is truely "the land of the free" then surely they would allow homosexuals to marry each other and have the same rights and entitlements which marriage grants people. instead of treating homosexuals are second class citerzens?

Besides ins't Dick Cheney's daughter gay? It seems a rather odd thing to me that her father is vice President to a homophobic President who would probably give Dick's daughter to the bible-bashing south for stoneing and witch burning.

Marriage is a socially approved and recommended type relationship and a legal contract. Personally I feel that Civil Unions with rights approaching marriage is better for gay relationships. The term marriage in the Western world has been traditionally between a man and a woman and it should stay that way legally. That said we should also have a Civil Union system to preserve the rights of Gay and other non-traditional relationships.

Also I doubt the Bush administration really cares about Gay Marriage that much, the proposed amendment seems to have been just as much a campaign tactic to get the religious right vote as the Democrats introducing a Draft bill in congress to try to get the youth vote.

Hate crimes are stupid people acting out, not government sponsored killing.
Freedom is not about government.

Being free is a relative term. I know many people in China currently believe they have many freedoms.

As a Evangelical Christian, I can't see Europe as being free - where people are jailed for speaking out against homosexuality. Yet you might, so again, free is a relative term.

If you think America isn't free, then feel free to goto Canada, or China, or Sweeden, or not move here.

USA PATRIOT - enough said

Being free is a relative term. I know many people in China currently believe they have many freedoms.

As a Evangelical Christian, I can't see Europe as being free - where people are jailed for speaking out against homosexuality. Yet you might, so again, free is a relative term.

If you think America isn't free, then feel free to goto Canada, or China, or Sweeden, or not move here.Or Iraq?

in america if you say "I love comunists" you'll probabily be arrested, or not if you are beaten up before arrested ... just a thought


Not!

AS somebody who has earned the privilege of US Citizenship and lived in 3 other countries for more than 5 years each I would make the following comments.

1. If you don't live in the US you know nothing about the country. So don't give ignorant commentaries based on what you have read in the papers in your country.
2. If you live in the US and get your info from less than 3 sources including one you completely disagree with you are limited in your understanding of what most other people believe.
3. When Americans debate freedom and complain of losing it, they are debating such fine details of the concept that the rest of the world doesn't understand. Sure there are exceptions. Those exceptions are the rule for most other countries.

So lets stop bashing our own country because those that don't live here or don't make a genuine effort to understand the diversity that exists in this enormous affluent population are missing the point and drawing wrong conclusions about all groups in the debate.

This week the majority of the voting population made choices. If you took just that group you would get and equal amount of diversity and emotion.

Great country, don't knock it. Lets make it better.In my opinion, the first step to make it better is to stop being so blind and see the things as they are. Then when you know about the situation, you can improve.

Freedom is not about government.

True, but I was responding to the idea that the government doesn't care about hate crimes against gays.
Not true.

in america if you say "I love comunists" you'll probabily be arrested, or not if you are beaten up before arrested ... just a thought

No, sorry, not true.. we have something called the First Amendment which states that the Freedom of Speech shall not be infringed.

Although your spelling or government teacher will probably give you a bad grade for mispelling communist.

Something in this thread worries me. I've seen a few times now about people talking about Nazi Germany being so horrible, which it was. But here is the question: is everything up until that level of brutality okay?

Where do we draw the line? Freedom and liberty are my paramount concerns. Not just for me, but for everyone. This Tuesday, some guy was elected to Congress which said unwed mothers and homosexuals aren't fit to teach in public schools. Does anyone think that's an okay thing to be running on? I don't. It sickens me. But, you know, it isn't KILLING THEM or LOCKING THEM AWAY so it is okay???

This insanity has to stop now, before it gets out of hand and we end up like Nazi Germany. Remember, Germany was a democracy before hand too. I know, I know, a lot of you think the comparison is way too harsh and crazed...but I'd rather be free than sorry.

on the other hand here in the uk i have a whole lot more civil freedoms than most americans hell the age laws for one

i will however concede that america is the land of the economicaly free

True, but I was responding to the idea that the government doesn't care about hate crimes against gays.
Not true.
There I agree. It doesn't mean the US is free though. Murderers can tackle freedom as much as the government.

There I agree. It doesn't mean the US is free though. Murderers can tackle freedom as much as the government.

Everybody has to agree in order for there to be true freedom. This will never happen. Some want to be "free" to take illegal drugs. Many rightly disagree along with other things. Since there won't be consensus on issues there will always be people saying how they aren't free.

This insanity has to stop now, before it gets out of hand and we end up like Nazi Germany. Remember, Germany was a democracy before hand too. I know, I know, a lot of you think the comparison is way too harsh and crazed...but I'd rather be free than sorry.

True, but Hitler wasn't elected democratically.

True, but Hitler wasn't elected democratically.

His party was elected, they had a clear majority. Hitler was subsequently appointed president.


I think the USA is a country with a remarkable amount of personal freedoms, but the president speaking out against gay marriage is something i wouldnt stand for, and I personally would have withheld my vote from him if I had had any onclination of voting for him in the first place.

If you want to know how free the US is, you should leave the western world for a couple of weeks.

A nice weekend in Syria, an adventurous holiday in Congo, a religious trip to China

Minor point but I actually live in China and the notion that expression of religion is forbidden is outdated. True, you can't advocate religion in schools but neither can you in many Western countries. Other than that there is freedom of worship for Buddhists, Daoists, Christians, Muslims and the handful of Jews. The only exceptions would be Falun Gong, but then Western governments have restricted cults, too (though not as heavy-handidly, granted), and the Catholic church where it is not permitted to declare the Pope as an authority higher than the Party. I'm not by any means trying to claim that China is remotely as free as the US or any other Western country (it clearly isn't) but just pointing out that certain perceptions are behind the times.

Well, the only freedom that I dont have, that I wish I did, is the right to go out and buy a AK-47....

For no other reason then that they look cool :p (I own a couple replicas's)

Some other countries you can just go out and buy one, but to be realistic, the only real reason to own one, is killing people, so its ok that those are outlawed for civilians.

I cant really think of any civil liberty that I dont have that I want, well, there is a few things. But unless you live in the US, you lack the intelligence to comprehend. Yes I'm saying all you other countries are dumb fuks. Though really, I like Canada, the lack of copyright laws makes file sharing so much easier, same with malyasia, and a few others. China and Japan are pretty cool too, when it comes right down to it, its only most of europe I dont like.

http://www.go3wastaken.com/misc/usmap.jpg

Screw you all, your just wasting our air.

Or black.

Or a woman.

Or muslim.

Anyone else?

in some places, a Jew. I dont know if you watch Ali G, but he sometimes comes accross some really anti-jewish people. Like when Borat, (one of Baron Sacha Cohen's personas) sings a "Kazakh" country song in some bar in the south that looks like its straight outta a western movie whose main chorus goes "Flush the Jew down the well, so my country can be fee" all the girls and some of the dudes start cheering. Pretty scary...considering Sacha Baron Cohen is of jewish descent.

in america if you say "I love comunists" you'll probabily be arrested, or not if you are beaten up before arrested ... just a thought

Ok, I have to say I take offense to that. Contrary to the beliefs espoused on many of the threads I have read in this forum, the US is not wholly comprised of right-wing nut jobs or neo cons.

I can - and do - openly discuss and debate my views on various topics of social import and relevance - including my demand for the 21 cents I'm owed - without fear.

Not only do I discuss issues I have protested for those in which I strongly believe and against those in which I do not.

The US is not the only country where this is possible, but I take offense when the assertion is made that we cannot speak our minds.

While the Bush administration and that damnable "Patriot" Act may try to take my rights away the reality is my voice - OUR VOICES - cannot be silenced.

While the looming miasma of "four more years" causes me to blanche, I shall not stand idly by and watch things happen around me.

I am a liberal and proud of it. And if anyone else reading this is a US liberal and proud of it - THEN GET OUT THERE AND DO SOMETHING!

Reclaim the title of liberal from the hands of those who seek to turn it into a dirty word...use your voice and shout "I AM A LIBERAL AND AM FOR SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC PROGRESS"

His party was elected, they had a clear majority. Hitler was subsequently appointed president.

Arrgghh! Not another one! 34% (in a country with proprtional representation, which also required 66% of the vote in order to pass the Enabling Act - effectively banning democracy) is not a majority. Also, the post of president was filled by Hindenburg, who had defeated Hitler by 17 million votes to 11 million in 1931 IIRC. Hitler was merely made Chancellor, and Hindenburg could dismiss him at any time. Sorry, gripe over.

I think the phrase 'Land of the Free' refers to economics. It's the 'Leader of the Free World' thing which irritates me (I'm British).

I think the phrase 'Land of the Free' refers to economics. It's the 'Leader of the Free World' thing which irritates me (I'm British).

Bosworth II - the use of that phrase by the shaved ape in office (see - I can say that and not get arrested) bothers me too, and I'm a US citizen.

What bothers me more though is the "spreading freedom and democracy" phrase...which the chimp used in his press conference today.

Sounds like he's planning to colonize the world to me...

<shudders in horror and dispair/>

...or maybe he's trying to institute evangelical democracy

Either way, it gives me the wiggins.

How can America claim itself to be the land of the free when it oppresses so many peoples' rights and civil liberties?

First banning Gay marriages, how is that freedom, allowing one group of people to marry and another group to not? Before you quote the bible rubbish, don't, that book is so contridictory and biggotted it's laughable.

This blew my mind. You just insisted that Americans are oppressed and their liberties violated and then immediately start spouting the very biggoted nonsense that you yourself claim to be against.

With that little remark, you just categorically excluded arguments and beliefs of an entire religious system and the billions who adhere to it. Is this what passes for objectivity and respect where you come from?

I just read through this whole thread and saw a few remarks that just made me want to laugh until I passed out from lack of air. No, you won't be arrested for liking Communists. One of my professors in school was a proud member of the Communist party. (For the record, I live just outside Washington DC)

I own an AK-47. Legally. Because I wanted one. How many of you people have the liberty to do that in a Western nation?

I have the freedom to say I think Kerry is a moron if I want to. I could say it if he had gotten elected too. I can say George Bush acts like a fool if I want to. I can say the entire Government of the United States is overloaded and inefficient.

And it is.

I have the freedom to live in any part of this country I want to. If I decide I don't like the Washington area I can move to LA or to New York or to a farm in the middle of Nebraska. I dont need anyone's permission. I don't need a license.

Although I think I'd rather live in Alaska.

It makes me ill when people laim the US opresses gays and treates them the way NAzis treated Jews. That's ignorant and inflammatory. Matthew Shephard was beaten to death by a small group of savage boys who sank to the level of animal hate. He wasn't persecuted by the Government. The killers weren't endorsed or encouraged by the Government.

On Tuesday people in 11 states voted to outlaw gay marriages. That wasn't the US Government, that was the PEOPLE. The law wasn't passed by any representative body or judge. It was a referendum and the people made their wishes known. If you're gay and that hurt your feelings then I am sorry. Just try to understand that to some, homosexuality is as repugnant as incest. Would you want to pass a law to leaglize incest? If you feel those people aqre wrong and misunderstand, you have the freedom to say so. You have the freedom to petition for a law change. You have the freedom to challenge the law. You have the freedom to protest.

You have freedom to make changes. The first step it to stop complaining and comaring the United States to Nazi Germany. It's untrue, counter-productive and it won't gain you any support. It sure won't win over any of your opponents.

For those of you who live outside the US, this is how it is here. A big bunch of people who don't always agree but who have systems in place to make it possible to live together in peace and to make changes when change is needed. That, my friends, is liberty.

AS somebody who has earned the privilege of US Citizenship and lived in 3 other countries for more than 5 years each I would make the following comments.

1. If you don't live in the US you know nothing about the country. So don't give ignorant commentaries based on what you have read in the papers in your country.

Can't agree with this at all. I've visited the US on no less than 20 occasions, spending over a year in total there, have a number of American friends, have studied American politics (albeit a while ago now) and get my information from a wide variety of sources including a number that are US based. Whilst I would always bow to an informed American on knowledge of their own country I can't agree with you that I know nothing about your adopted country.

3. When Americans debate freedom and complain of losing it, they are debating such fine details of the concept that the rest of the world doesn't understand. Sure there are exceptions. Those exceptions are the rule for most other countries.

This I completely and utterly disagree with. Most of the concepts that underpin the American notion of freedom originated in my country (the UK). What on earth justifies you in your statement that we British are too ignorant/stupid to understand your notions of freedom?

Hate crimes are stupid people acting out, not government sponsored killing.

I knew I'd get called on that.

This I completely and utterly disagree with. Most of the concepts that underpin the American notion of freedom originated in my country (the UK). What on earth justifies you in your statement that we British are too ignorant/stupid to understand your notions of freedom?

How about the fact that the freedoms outlined in the Bill of Rights were specifically aimed at avoiding the sort of persecution and Government interference the colonists had suffered at the hands of King George and Parliament.

Therefore they did not so much originate IN the UK as they originated BECAUSE of the tyrrany of the UK.

And nobody said the British were ignorant or stupid. Only that they likely would argue different issues than we do.

1. If you don't live in the US you know nothing about the country. So don't give ignorant commentaries based on what you have read in the papers in your country.



Take out US and insert any other county's name. Then spread this advice out amongst every U.S citizen...because your country sure thinks it knows what's best for the rest of us.

USA PATRIOT - enough said

If by PATRIOT you mean, unthinking cog in the machine that supports your nation right or wrong, then yes, enough said.

A lot of what you say is fair and reasoned, I just want to take issue with a couple of points:


I own an AK-47. Legally. Because I wanted one. How many of you people have the liberty to do that in a Western nation?

In the Netherlands euthenasia is legal. In Switzerland heroin is legally prescribed. In Belgium gay marriages are legal. Are these countries freer than the US? Not necessarily, these particular freedoms just point to differing political cultures. Pointing to individual examples proves nothing except that sometimes freedoms are conceived differently. One problem with this whole debate is that in many ways it's comparing apples and oranges, the American notion of liberty is in many ways very different from the European/Candian one. It doesn't necessarily mean that any one interpretation results in less freedom, though.


On Tuesday people in 11 states voted to outlaw gay marriages. That wasn't the US Government, that was the PEOPLE. The law wasn't passed by any representative body or judge. It was a referendum and the people made their wishes known.

This is a flawed point. Just because the people vote for something does not mean its inaction is any less an impingement on liberty. In theory people in a democracy could vote away all their freedoms except the freedom to vote. Or a majority could vote to take away the voting rights of a minority. In either case it would certainly not be a free country. This is one of the reasons why most modern democracies have human rights legislation written into their constitutions. Whether or not one considers outlawing gay marriages to be an infringement of liberties just because it was voted in doesn't mean it isn't.

A lot of what you say is fair and reasoned, I just want to take issue with a couple of points:

I appreciate that, thank you.


In the Netherlands euthenasia is legal. In Switzerland heroin is legally prescribed. In Belgium gay marriages are legal. Are these countries freer than the US? Not necessarily, these particular freedoms just point to differing political cultures.


Your point is taken. I only specified the AK-47 thing because someone else had said they couldn't own one in the US and I wanted to clarify that.


This is a flawed point. Just because the people vote for something does not mean its inaction is any less an impingement on liberty. In theory people in a democracy could vote away all their freedoms except the freedom to vote. Or a majority could vote to take away the voting rights of a minority. In either case it would certainly not be a free country. This is one of the reasons why most modern democracies have human rights legislation written into their constitutions. Whether or not one considers outlawing gay marriages to be an infringement of liberties just because it was voted in doesn't mean it isn't.

I see your point, but my meaning here is that if the people themselves can bring about such a law, then the people themselves are empowered to change or repeal it. That includes gay people as well as straight people. The Jews in 1936 Germany did not have such a mechanism available to them.

How about the fact that the freedoms outlined in the Bill of Rights were specifically aimed at avoiding the sort of persecution and Government interference the colonists had suffered at the hands of King George and Parliament.

Therefore they did not so much originate IN the UK as they originated BECAUSE of the tyrrany of the UK.

I said the concepts, not the particular freedoms. I'm not arguing that the UK was more free than the US, it clearly wasn't, but that Edit: many of the ideas that underpinned the US Republic stemmed from the UK. Remember, we were a republic over 150 years before the US.

And nobody said the British were ignorant or stupid. Only that they likely would argue different issues than we do.

What I took issue with is Original Oz's use of the term "the concept" of freedom rather than "an interpretation of the concept". I don't disagree that interpretations on both sides of the Atlantic (and, for that matter, the English Channel) are very different (as I say in my later reply to your other post). I read Oz as implying, though, especially when he said "doesn't understand", that non-Americans simply don't understand what freedom means. The only possible explanations for this would be ignorance, stupidity or brainwashing (forgot to include the last one).

They are a land of free people, not THE land of the free, imho.

Freedom; Make it Happen-Hurley Surfing.

Freedom have you tasted it? Or did you decide to stay in your office all day and do nothing? Some people like to be slaves I guess. We are free to live our lives the way we ought to live our lives. My hobbies that haven't been regulated yet: Paintball, Surfing, Hiking, Canoeing. The government doesn't decide when I do these things. Everyone has a right to live life. No one has the right to take it away from somebody else. What life will be given in place of the life that is taken away? Some people just don't know what to do with all that freedom.

The Constitution of the United States, The Bill of Rights. Each person in America is protected by these manuscripts.

True, but Hitler wasn't elected democratically.

Yes he was, and he made his objectives PERFECTLY CLEAR in Mein Kampf.

Tell that to Matthew Shepard.

Who was killed by a bunch of drunk dudes. Not the government. I think there is a difference between drunk dudes and the government.

behind u all the way red wales (in a non-homosexual way of course)

in america if you say "I love comunists" you'll probabily be arrested, or not if you are beaten up before arrested ... just a thought
Quick question: Have you ever been to the US? We don't arrest or beat people up because of their opinions (unless sports are involved). We are a very free country dude.

I am a student at a public university and I know people who claim to be communists. I have never once seen any of them be arrested. They have not lost federal loans because of this, they have not been beaten up, yet they openly display communist signs.
Just a thought.

Another point, Women in America also seem to be kept down by the men, for example abortion, it is a womans body and therefore her right to choose if she wants to get rid of the baby or not, it is not up to the state or even the church to decided if she is allowed it or not!

Horse shit. Men do not keep women down by taking away their "right to murder." Give me a break.

I think there is a difference between drunk dudes and the government.

Not in Alberta, Canada! Hehehehhe..Ralph Klein you suck!

Horse shit. Men do not keep women down by taking away their "right to murder." Give me a break.
Not to mention women are slightly more pro-life than men.

Switzerland is the real land of the free hands down-

Take out US and insert any other county's name. Then spread this advice out amongst every U.S citizen...because your country sure thinks it knows what's best for the rest of us.

Well, then if you don't like it don't do it. I don't tell your country what to do. Let's avoid hypocrisy.

Not in Alberta, Canada! Hehehehhe..Ralph Klein you suck!
That, good sir, is a joke of the highest quality!

bah.. blame governments for decisions made for countries.. don't start to take it out on eachother, citizens, in iraq both governments in britain and the US when to war without the majoriy of the people's support.. that was not the nation's public's fault not was it the fault of the people in the states for the partiriot act..

You all need to drink some bleach, and stop breathing my air.

(Proud US citizan, and anti enviromentalist/liberal wacko activist)

Seems to me that freedom isn't always the optimal way. Hanging on to that fanatic line of thinking is a bit absurd. There's always the need for different sollutions to different situations! In order to have a maximum amount of people leading a good and decent (and free) lifes, barriers are a must sometimes. I'm not trying to say that Stalin or Tito and their likes had it right, far from, but to force isn't always to do harm, to prevent isn't the same as stopping. To demand freedom can brake positive developments in areas of governments etc.

So why all the fuss about who's free and who's not. If americans feel free, please call the US the land of the free, if the english feels free, please call england the land of the free too. (why does english always feel so belittled compared to the US?) Freedom is only good when it improves the all over life quality of people.

Hopes this makes sense to some of you, i tried to make it short.

What's that song that some times was sung at England matches? Something about there ain't no black in the unon jack, right? I hear the lads down in Millwall are still really open-minded and tolerant blokes these days. How about the monkey noises black footballers are subjected to throughout Europe? I understand a citizen of the UK can be forced to surrender his passport on demand for simply being on a hooligan watch list. I've been to parts of Europe where video cameras monitor many public places. The police beatings I've witnessed in Italy have been among the most senseless and absurd abuses of civil rights I have ever witnessed. There also seems to be quite a bit of anti-semitism stewing beneath the surface of European consciousness. I think there is plenty of biggotry and enough civil rights issues in Europe to keep you busy stewing about your own problems.

I really don't know what the world media tells you about civil liberties in the US, but the misconceptions about life here being a kin to a nazi police state are insane. Just because a gay couple can't get married here legally right now do not mean it will always be so nor does it mean homosexuals are rounded up, flogged, and publically executed. I don't think any American taking an honest look at our society will say it is perfect. I think we do the best we can though and we eventually fix or at least seriously address our problems.

I don't think you would want Americans to make sweeping assumptions and generalizations about your countries based on sensational news stories. I would urge all of you to use you abilities to think critically to wade through what you media tells you and take a more honest look at what America is. We're pretty honest about our problems and don't seek to hide them. We also are thankful for your input, but we can handle our own problems.

Let's also not loose sight of the fact that the current state of the middle east has its roots in European colonialism. It was not a problem that materialised from thin air on 1/20/2001 simply because GW Bush took office. You guys hated Ronald Reagan too, but in the end, he kept you pretty safe, avoided a nuclear war, and ended the threat posed by the USSR. He did all of this while continuing the policies that allowed Europe to bebuild itself from a steaming pile of ruin in to the economic powerhouse it is today. My grandparents and great grandparents risked life and limb to secure your futures. European and Canadian arrogance and ignorance towards the US is as stupid as supposed US ignorance and arrogance towards the rest of the world. I know it makes many of you feel good while you sit on your morally superior high horse, but I honestly don't think you understand America anymore than you think we understand you.