NationStates Jolt Archive

This is to see what people think on the issue of: Is Church really being separated from State in the USA? I want to see what the people in the USA think and around the world that visit these forums. Personally I don't. I feel they do a hell of a better job in Europe especially in the UK of separating Church and State then we the americans do.

I thought that was one of the reasons why we got away from the UK. But it looks like I might just be wrong, by the way our President/Re-Elected President acts, the pledge, and the Phrase "In God we Trust" on all U.S. currency.

Honestly....no not completely, but i really dont give a crap about how bush acts and believes god is behind him, or the phrase in god we trust on our currency, or even that ten commandments monument bullshit.

When it starts infringing on my rights...and i start being pressured to convert...or the government gives one religion benefits another doesnt. Thats when ill be concerned with it.

Currently, Separation of Church and State is not complete.

But we are getting there...or were getting there...

You're absolutely right, Europe (and Canada) is WAY ahead of us.

By the way, the poll really isn't that representative.

The Peroutka supporters (and many Bush supporters) would argue that we shouldn't have separation of church and state at all.

This is a key question today and I feel bad that US is regretting like this. This used to be over, you know? All that mess in the 60s/70s should have teached people that there are a lot of religions in the world and that making your laws based on one religion alone is discriminatory. Now this is a question again! I mean! What the hell? Here in Brasil if someone talks about teaching creationism in schools, people laugh and people laugh A LOT, even religious people, now, in the US, this "creationism at school" question seems to be getting important.
When science starts to be ignored, I think we have a problem...
Not that religion should not count, far from saying this, but religion count on your everyday life, this should not be imposed to everyone, if a kid wants to follow a religion, he will do it because he wants, not because his school says so.

The Term Separation of Church and State was first mentioned in a letter from Pres. Jefferson to a Baptise Church. It's really not in the constitution so it depends on the lawers and pundits of whatever case feels they need to use it.

The admendment is :
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Madison's original version of the admendment was "The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.''

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/html/amdt1.html

goes into all the different interpretations that were used by lawers and Presidents alike.

The Peroutka supporters (and many Bush supporters) would argue that we shouldn't have separation of church and state at all.
It frightens me when people go on about "Christian values." It happens in Australia too. Whatever happened to secularism?

If they do argue that then they would be going againest the Framers of the Consitution. Which I believe they really... really don't want to do.

Honestly....no not completely, but i really dont give a crap about how bush acts and believes god is behind him, or the phrase in god we trust on our currency, or even that ten commandments monument bullshit.

When it starts infringing on my rights...and i start being pressured to convert...or the government gives one religion benefits another doesnt. Thats when ill be concerned with it.

So you really don't mind the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Alliegence also?

Just asking cuz I hear so many flak about Separation of Church and State being used by the ACLU and others.

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about the Government's trend towards "Christian bashing?"

I think the worst of it is that Christian Values are dictating Human Rights issues, instead of the government. The governments job is to ensure that all people are treated equally and respectfully regardless of what the vast majority of it's citizens believe. The Second American Civil War is a good example of this. Among other things, religion was used as a justification for slavery.

I vote for Seperation.

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about the Government's trend towards "Christian bashing?"

Do you believe that a Christian Government will bash thier own people?
I mean lets face it most of the government if not all is in the Christian catagory.

No..no real problem with under god.

And i dont see the government as christian bashing at all. If there are bizarre isolated incidents at schools here and there, and people are so freaking stupid as to have to have "winter holiday" fine...its not really HURTING christianity at all...call it christmas at home and be done with it, quit seeking out reasons to be offended and grow a thicker skin and who cares what the government thinks. People treat it as a yoke around their neck that at high school or whatnot they "cant pray" well 9 times out of 10 thats malarky....they cant stop, disrupt class and lead the entire class in a prayer...thats fair, non christians money goes to pay for that school too. Nothing stops a student from arriving a bit early and engaging in a private prayer before class shy of potential ridicule from the peers as they do for anything too different from them.

It frightens me when people go on about "Christian values." It happens in Australia too. Whatever happened to secularism?

Don't worry. It's still there, but you can't just expect everyone to suddenly abandon religion.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

...

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.''


"The Republican Party ... reaffirms the United States of America is a Christian nation."

-- GOP Platform Document, 2002

The easiest argument against any of those "under God" references is to replace it with "under Allah" or "Under Buddha". See how they like that.

IIRC, there's a part of the brain that defects at birth or something, and the end results is being a homosexual, or something.
I didn't mean that people should abandon religion. I'd prefer it, but that's neither here or there. I mean that religion should be left out of national institutions such as the government and the judiciary, and there are obviously people both here and in the US who feel otherwise.

If we didn't rely on the government (at increasinly centralized levels) to educate and practically raise our children, there would be no debate over prayer in school or the Pledge.

I say disband the government schools. Stop taking my tax dollars to lie to kids about Lincoln.

Right. There would be no debate, because all schools would end up segregated under religious and racial lines. Is that in any way productive?

I say disband the government schools.
Um.. ah... You can't be serious?
I mean, I'm sure the curriculum needs reform, but seriously...
Where do kids who can't afford a private education go?
Besides, most private schools are religious.

No..no real problem with under god.

And i dont see the government as christian bashing at all. If there are bizarre isolated incidents at schools here and there, and people are so freaking stupid as to have to have "winter holiday" fine...its not really HURTING christianity at all...call it christmas at home and be done with it, quit seeking out reasons to be offended and grow a thicker skin and who cares what the government thinks. People treat it as a yoke around their neck that at high school or whatnot they "cant pray" well 9 times out of 10 thats malarky....they cant stop, disrupt class and lead the entire class in a prayer...thats fair, non christians money goes to pay for that school too. Nothing stops a student from arriving a bit early and engaging in a private prayer before class shy of potential ridicule from the peers as they do for anything too different from them.


Of course I'm speaking of Government in a broad term (State and Federal.) For Instance the California Supreme Court rulled against the Boys Scouts from receiving support from a state office for using a park for their Jamboree (or some event) because the Boy's Scouts were deemed to be a Christian Organization. They (BSA) were also sued because the Scout Oath mentions GOD, and the Scout law mentions Reverence. Schools are encouraged to discourage prayer groups in Schools, Then there is the display of the 10 Commandments on Government Property while elsewhere, the Muslim Call to Worship (which is a chant praising ALLAH) is allowed to be broadcast through loudspeakers that could be heard for blocks away. There is a movement to remove "In God we Trust" from all documents, including currency, and removing "Under God" from the Pledge of Alligence. Granted maybe "Christian Bashing" is too harsh a term, but they do seem to be pressured more than others.

The easiest argument against any of those "under God" references is to replace it with "under Allah" or "Under Buddha". See how they like that.

Ahh, but isn't Allah a God?
I dunno if Budda is a God but if he was, wouldn't the phrase "Under God" also include him as well?

It's not like we're saying "One Nation, Under Yahweh, the Christian God, Indivisiable with Liberty and Justice for All"

Of course I'm speaking of Government in a broad term (State and Federal.) For Instance the California Supreme Court rulled against the Boys Scouts from receiving support from a state office for using a park for their Jamboree (or some event) because the Boy's Scouts were deemed to be a Christian Organization. They (BSA) were also sued because the Scout Oath mentions GOD, and the Scout law mentions Reverence. Schools are encouraged to discourage prayer groups in Schools, Then there is the display of the 10 Commandments on Government Property while elsewhere, the Muslim Call to Worship (which is a chant praising ALLAH) is allowed to be broadcast through loudspeakers that could be heard for blocks away. There is a movement to remove "In God we Trust" from all documents, including currency, and removing "Under God" from the Pledge of Alligence. Granted maybe "Christian Bashing" is too harsh a term, but they do seem to be pressured more than others.
Well obviously this is because Christianity is the dominant religion in America, and too many people percieve it to be an essential part of government.

There's no "attack" on any other religion because no other religion has Christianity's power in America.

It is "Under God". Not under a god or under gods it is "Under God". They are referring to the christian and you can't say they aren't cause they are.

Ahh, but isn't Allah a God?
I dunno if Budda is a God but if he was, wouldn't the phrase "Under God" also include him as well?

It's not like we're saying "One Nation, Under Yahweh, the Christian God, Indivisiable with Liberty and Justice for All"
Or how about, "Under Wiccan principles".

Under God is still playing favoritism to monotheistic religion.

The idea of seperation of church and state is not nor was it to eliminate religion or religious people from public life or the holding of public office. We often are told that but it is false. The purpose of seperating church and state was to prevent the government from becoming a religion,ie the Anglican church was headed by the monarchs of England, making those monarchs all-powerful in every aspect of the lives of thier subjects.

But we shouldn't have to believe what others do.

Ahh, but isn't Allah a God?
I dunno if Budda is a God but if he was, wouldn't the phrase "Under God" also include him as well?

It's not like we're saying "One Nation, Under Yahweh, the Christian God, Indivisiable with Liberty and Justice for All"

In english (and I assume US english as well), capitalising God means you refer to the Christian god. Other gods are referred to with the lower-case letter. Just thought I'd mention that one.

The Term Separation of Church and State was first mentioned in a letter from Pres. Jefferson to a Baptise Church. It's really not in the constitution so it depends on the lawers and pundits of whatever case feels they need to use it.

The admendment is :
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Madison's original version of the admendment was "The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.''

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/html/amdt1.html

goes into all the different interpretations that were used by lawers and Presidents alike.

Some people interpret and others look for evidence by what people wrote.

For example:

"The number, the industry, and the morality of the Priesthood, & the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the Chruch from the State"
-- James Madison

Gives a rather good idea what Madison envisioned.....

Of course I'm speaking of Government in a broad term (State and Federal.) For Instance the California Supreme Court rulled against the Boys Scouts from receiving support from a state office for using a park for their Jamboree (or some event) because the Boy's Scouts were deemed to be a Christian Organization. They (BSA) were also sued because the Scout Oath mentions GOD, and the Scout law mentions Reverence. Schools are encouraged to discourage prayer groups in Schools, Then there is the display of the 10 Commandments on Government Property while elsewhere, the Muslim Call to Worship (which is a chant praising ALLAH) is allowed to be broadcast through loudspeakers that could be heard for blocks away. There is a movement to remove "In God we Trust" from all documents, including currency, and removing "Under God" from the Pledge of Alligence. Granted maybe "Christian Bashing" is too harsh a term, but they do seem to be pressured more than others.

As for the other...well its california...theyre a little crazy there..i know i used to live there before i moved to oregon.
They may have been sued...the BSA that is, but did they WIN...theyve stated over and over that they are a private organization, i cant see how they would have won that suit. Christian prayer groups or prayer groups period? I could see how the school would not want religious meetings going on on their grounds, thats fair as well. There also is a movement to do those things but i fail to see how it "hurts christianity as a whole" After all Under god wasnt in the original pledge of allegiance, it was added to jab at those godless commies in russia. Moreover If they ban the muslim call to worship, theyd have to ban all the church bells that ring for blocks away, as they amount to the same thing. (I honestly wouldnt mind banning the church bells, i like to sleep in on my saturdays and the catholic church i live 2 blocks from rings the holy hell out of those bad boys on the weekend.)