NationStates Jolt Archive

Just got an email from one of my sources in Iraq. The source says to look for news on the Falluja operation at any moment now. Just wanted to give you a heads up.

So I've heard

WHoopti freakin' doo. Maybe we should consider going after terrorists instead.

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We should have finished this job back in April, but the UN pussies were wailing over the deaths of the poor, innocent terrorists. Now we have to pay for the same real estate twice. It just goes to show how much appeasers and "sensitive pacifists" cost others.

WHoopti freakin' doo. Maybe we should consider going after terrorists instead.

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About what I've come to expect from you. Sorry, but the insurgents are PART of Al Queda.

WHoopti freakin' doo. Maybe we should consider going after terrorists instead.

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That's where they all are. Or have you been under a rock for the last few months?

About what I've come to expect from you. Sorry, but the insurgents are PART of Al Queda.
Uh-huh. Because that's what Al Qaeda does; fights head-to-head against the U.S. Military. They have a long history of traditional warfare. ;)

That's where they all are. Or have you been under a rock for the last few months?

I've heard the reports. ANd dismissed them. Al Qaeda is playing us like a harp.

Just got an email from one of my sources in Iraq. The source says to look for news on the Falluja operation at any moment now. Just wanted to give you a heads up.

Excellent..!

'Bout freakin' time..!

Though that's not exactly news,.. for all you Al-qaida agents out there,.. this is NOT news..!!

:D

Uh-huh. Because that's what Al Qaeda does; fights head-to-head against the U.S. Military. They have a long history of traditional warfare. ;)

They're not fighting the US military by their choice. They're fighting the US military because we're forcing them to, rather than coming to the US and blowing up innocent people. It's called seizing the initiative, and it's always a good strategy. Do you get it now?

They're not fighting the US military by their choice. They're fighting the US military because we're forcing them to, rather than coming to the US and blowing up innocent people. It's called seizing the initiative, and it's always a good strategy. Do you get it now?

Yep. You're duped. :)

Uh-huh. Because that's what Al Qaeda does; fights head-to-head against the U.S. Military. They have a long history of traditional warfare. ;)

Reality truly is a complete mystery to you, isn't it. I don't know how old you are, but your reasoning and knowledge rank way below that of my 6-year-old grandson.

I've heard the reports. ANd dismissed them. Al Qaeda is playing us like a harp.

No, they are the ones being played. They are forced to react to our actions, instead of acting on their own. In case you haven't noticed, America has not suffered a terrorist attack since 9/11, and it's not because none were planned. How can they effectively plan and operate when they're holed up in a cave or dodging US ordnance?

Reality truly is a complete mystery to you, isn't it. I don't know how old you are, but your reasoning and knowledge rank way below that of my 6-year-old grandson.

Does your six year old grandson grasp the idea that Al-Qaeda, supposedly 'pinned' in Falluja is downing jet liners in russia and blowing up trains in Spain?

Yep. We're keeping them on their toes, alright. ;)

Yep. You're duped. :)

Nope. If you think so, then you know nothing about how terrorists operate, or military operations in general. Learn how important the initiative is in warfare. Starting with Sun Tzu or Clausewitz is always a good idea.

Nope. If you think so, then you know nothing about how terrorists operate, or military operations in general. Learn how important the initiative is in warfare. Starting with Sun Tzu or Clausewitz is always a good idea.

To use a Biblical allusion, you're "casting your pearls before swine." This guy is a lost cause.

Nope. If you think so, then you know nothing about how terrorists operate, or military operations in general. Learn how important the initiative is in warfare. Starting with Sun Tzu or Clausewitz is always a good idea.

*leans up close. whispers* 'Maybe you should read Sun Tzu a little more carefully.'

Does your six year old grandson grasp the idea that Al-Qaeda, supposedly 'pinned' in Falluja is downing jet liners in russia and blowing up trains in Spain?

Yep. We're keeping them on their toes, alright. ;)

Deterring or reacting to those attacks is the responsibility of the Russian and Spanish governments, not America's. They haven't attacked America, have they?

somthing i read in a local newspaper: "when bush went into iraq he went for the wrong reasons, because there were no terrorists or WMDs. but now it is the right place to be to fight terrorism because 'terrorists' are pouring into iraq to fight us." but then again we ARE sort of on thier land and well.....the war drags on.

*leans up close. whispers* 'Maybe you should read Sun Tzu a little more carefully.'

I've read it very carefully. Many times. If you had, you'd be a little wiser about how terrorists operate.

So you dont think they might have nipped out of Iraq when the US were at the UN looking for international support then? Or were they so naive as to think that America wouldn't go to war without that support?

That I can remember, there has only been one major terrorist attack in the western world since 9/11, and that was ETA in Madrid, not AQ. IMO the threat of terrorism is grossly exaggerated.

Edit: jet liners in russia? must have missed that one. :confused:

To use a Biblical allusion, you're "casting your pearls before swine." This guy is a lost cause.

Yes, but it's so fun ripping him a new one. He doesn't understand the first thing about the military or warfare. All he knows is that he hates President Bush.

Deterring or reacting to those attacks is the responsibility of the Russian and Spanish governments, not America's. They haven't attacked America, have they?

Ahh... the plot thinnens. The victims of these international terrorists, who we are leading the international community in a war against are not our concern because they weren't American. Yet we expected their cooperation when we got attacked.

Let me ask you this then; why are you so concerned about terrorists in Iraq then?

So you dont think they might have nipped out of Iraq when the US were at the UN looking for international support then? Or were they so naive as to think that America wouldn't go to war without that support?

That I can remember, there has only been one major terrorist attack in the western world since 9/11, and that was ETA in Madrid, not AQ. IMO the threat of terrorism is grossly exaggerated.

Edit: jet liners in russia? must have missed that one. :confused:

I don't think Madrid was ETA. I think is was AQ. Two aircraft were brought down by suicide bombers just before the Beslan school atrocity. Both were perpetrated by Chechen terrorists, who of course have no ties with AQ. ;)

We should have finished this job back in April, but the UN pussies were wailing over the deaths of the poor, innocent terrorists. Now we have to pay for the same real estate twice. It just goes to show how much appeasers and "sensitive pacifists" cost others.

I believe it was Allawi that requested we hold off and let them try to negotiate with the insurgents. It has worked, at least for the time being, with Sadyr and his followers. al-Zarqawi isn't negotiating, and it is believed that he is in Fallujah. Allawi has repeatedly warned that he only has so much patience, and al-Aarqawi has pretty much pushed it as far as can. The plays are being called by the Iraqi government. We're just there as support.

In order to overcome the enemy we need to understand who they are and why they fight us. Terrorist or insurgent, it makes no difference.

No, they are the ones being played. They are forced to react to our actions, instead of acting on their own. In case you haven't noticed, America has not suffered a terrorist attack since 9/11, and it's not because none were planned. How can they effectively plan and operate when they're holed up in a cave or dodging US ordnance?

I think the key assumption here, by and large incorrect, i might add, is that the insurgents around Fallujah are Al Qaeda terrorists. If, in fact, anyone would care to check their facts, they might just find out that Al Qaeda was not in Iraq until AFTER we invaded. In fact, both recent reports and intelligence gathered prior to invasion indicated that Al Qaeda was slowly dying off in Afghanistan, where they actually were.

Think about it: If you were an absolutist and paranoid dictator (i.e. Saddam Hussein al Tikrit), then would you really want a bunch of extremist wahoos running around your country who have no respect for any governmental authority that doesn't bow to their wishes? Now, I'm no fool, but in Saddam's Iraq, there was only room for one boss, HIM. Anyone, whether pro-democracy or pro-Ayatollah, who didn't toe the line was generally taken care of, quickly and efficiently.

There WERE NO TERRORISTS in Iraq before we invaded. What's going on now? Really and truly, the majority of the insurgents in Iraq are people we pissed off. Whether they are relatives of non-combatants killed by US weapons or generally don't appreciate a massive force of non-believing foreigners invading their country, I don't know. Likely there are quite a few ways we've pissed these people off (not that I'm defending them, after all I have friends over there who I'd like to see again).

Since invading Iraq, the CIA (agreeing with the vast majority of intelligence agencies worldwide) has seen a dramatic increase in Al Qaeda activity and recruitment.

Think about the facts before you blow smoke out your hindquarters.

Yes, but it's so fun ripping him a new one. He doesn't understand the first thing about the military or warfare. All he knows is that he hates President Bush.

Friends of Bill is that you?

Yes, but it's so fun ripping him a new one. He doesn't understand the first thing about the military or warfare. All he knows is that he hates President Bush.

Ever hear the saying, "Beauty is skin deep but ugly goes all the way to the bone?" :D

Well, despite the diferential in firepower, i do hope the insurgents in Fallujah make a good work, and kick lots of Americans out. Hell, a guy as the right to defend is homeland.

GO FALLUJAH!

Ahh... the plot thinnens. The victims of these international terrorists, who we are leading the international community in a war against are not our concern because they weren't American. Yet we expected their cooperation when we got attacked.

Let me ask you this then; why are you so concerned about terrorists in Iraq then?

Get real. I didn't say we're not concerned about those victims, I said it is the responsibility of their governments to protect them, just as it is the responsibility of the US government to protect Americans.

I'm concerned about the terrorists in Iraq because that's where they live and plan their attacks, possibly against America, not to mention murdering innocent Iraqi civilians. Hitting them where they live, before they can do the same to us. Again, seizing the initiative, a concept you apparently find difficult to grasp.

Get real. I didn't say we're not concerned about those victims, I said it is the responsibility of their governments to protect them, just as it is the responsibility of the US government to protect Americans.

I'm concerned about the terrorists in Iraq because that's where they live and plan their attacks, possibly against America, not to mention murdering innocent Iraqi civilians. Hitting them where they live, before they can do the same to us. Again, seizing the initiative, a concept you apparently find difficult to grasp.


Regretfully, No terrorist lived in Iraq.. now there are lots of them now! Now that's efficient terrorist fighting!

Nope. If you think so, then you know nothing about how terrorists operate, or military operations in general. Learn how important the initiative is in warfare. Starting with Sun Tzu or Clausewitz is always a good idea.
Even more important in warfare is to find the enemy. :rolleyes: And since it's AQ your after, Falludja is the wrong place.

I've read it very carefully. Many times. If you had, you'd be a little wiser about how terrorists operate.

All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War

If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War


All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War

If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War

"The art of using troops is this:
......When ten to the enemy's one, surround him;
......When five times his strength, attack him;
......If double his strength, divide him;
......If equally matched you may engage him;
......If weaker numerically, be capable of withdrawing;
......And if in all respects unequal, be capable of eluding him,
..........for a small force is but booty for one more powerful."
- Sun Tzu, the Art Of War

"Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys.
Look on them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death!"
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War

the general who wins a battle makes many calculations in his temple ere the battle is fought. The general who loses a battle makes but few calculations beforehand. Thus do many calculations lead to victory, and few calculations to defeat: how much more no calculation at all! It is by attention to this point that I can foresee who is likely to w in or lose.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War

He who wishes to fight must first count the cost. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be dampened. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor dampened, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue... In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War

It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War

To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight. He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces. He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks. He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared. He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War

Hence that general is skillful in attack whose opponent does not know what to defend; and he is skillful in defense whose opponent does not know what to attack.
- Sun Tzu

I have more. :)

I feel so much safer. I was worried. But now I'm not.

Now, when I am not killed by a terrorist attack, I will of course heap praise upon the man, and men, and dead children who were obviously responsible for barely saving my life. For which I'm totally grateful, since there was a huge chance of death by terrorism up until the moment I knew that we're continuing to rape Iraq for every bit of media money we can.

Well, despite the diferential in firepower, i do hope the insurgents in Fallujah make a good work, and kick lots of Americans out. Hell, a guy as the right to defend is homeland.

GO FALLUJAH!
Didn't you get the memo? Thats limited to Americans only. All others are dangerouse terorrists.

(not that I'm defending them, after all I have friends over there who I'd like to see again).

Ah, but that's precisely what you did. Your entire post was about how it's America's fault that they're cutting off people's heads. Hogwash.

Ah, but that's precisely what you did. Your entire post was about how it's America's fault that they're cutting off people's heads. Hogwash.
But it is. I didn't hear of any foreigners getting their heads cutt off in Iraq before the barbarian hordes fell upon the country like locust.

Here's my point about what we're actually doing in Iraq, rather than a bunch of disconnected pointless cut-and-paste jobs.

1. Sun Tzu said: Whoever is first in the field and awaits the coming of the enemy, will be fresh for the fight; whoever is second in the field and has to hasten to battle will arrive exhausted.

2. Therefore the clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy's will to be imposed on him.

3. By holding out advantages to him, he can cause the enemy to approach of his own accord; or, by inflicting damage, he can make it impossible for the enemy to draw near.

That's exactly what we're doing in Iraq, just as I stated before and now backed up by pertinent passages from Sun Tzu.

Get real. I didn't say we're not concerned about those victims, I said it is the responsibility of their governments to protect them, just as it is the responsibility of the US government to protect Americans.

I'm concerned about the terrorists in Iraq because that's where they live and plan their attacks, possibly against America, not to mention murdering innocent Iraqi civilians. Hitting them where they live, before they can do the same to us. Again, seizing the initiative, a concept you apparently find difficult to grasp.

In case you had missed the parts in Sun Tzu that discuss the issue, let me boil it down for you: If your much stronger enemy knows where you live, don't stay there. Terrorists don't LIVE anywhere. They, by and large, have no homes where they spend most of there time. Rather, the typical modus operandi is to live a year here, two months there, train for a week or so here and spend a day reconning there. They're not stupid (how could they be, since they've caused us so many Terror Alert headaches, not to mention actual attacks?), nor are they ill-informed. A modern terrorist keeps his head in the game and doesn't sit still. Chances are, if they're in Iraq now, they weren't before. And they won't stay there forever.

Why would an organization led by a rather intelligent (he'd have to be to stay at large for this long) person be dumb enough to think it could go head-to-head with the vastly more powerful US military. Al Qaeda has NEVER done that before. Terrorist organizations are terrorists because they don't participate in conventional (military vs. (para)military) operations. They attack "soft" targets to inflict the maximum damage on an opponents civillian population and morale.

You need to rethink a lot of your preconceived notions about the war and who we're really fighting.

Here's my point about what we're actually doing in Iraq, rather than a bunch of disconnected pointless cut-and-paste jobs.

1. Sun Tzu said: Whoever is first in the field and awaits the coming of the enemy, will be fresh for the fight; whoever is second in the field and has to hasten to battle will arrive exhausted.

2. Therefore the clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy's will to be imposed on him.

3. By holding out advantages to him, he can cause the enemy to approach of his own accord; or, by inflicting damage, he can make it impossible for the enemy to draw near.

That's exactly what we're doing in Iraq, just as I stated before and now backed up by pertinent passages from Sun Tzu.

Heh. I read these, and I wonder if you're talking about the Insurgents in Fallujah, or the U.S. Army. Hard to tell. They chose the field of battle. They impose their will on us by choosing where we fight. And we waste our resources fighting there.

Ah, but that's precisely what you did. Your entire post was about how it's America's fault that they're cutting off people's heads. Hogwash.

its interesting how you don't bother to read the entirety of a person's post. in knowing an opponent, one must know his or her rationale. if you think that an explanation of enemy motivations is a defense, then please, tell the department of defense to stop analyzing the enemy.

seriously, read a post before you reply to it. what you did was akin to seeing a red sign and assuming a communist put it up, while ignoring the bold "STOP" printed on it.

That's exactly what we're doing in Iraq, just as I stated before and now backed up by pertinent passages from Sun Tzu.

Sun Tzu also had quite a bit to say about such things as taking cities and nations by force, and getting into conflicts without supreme reason. Do you recall those quotes as well?

I don't, so I'm offering this as a minor challenge.

Personally, I don't think occupying another nation is the best way to go about fighting terrorism... sounds to me rather like a shoddy excuse of the sort given by every invading country in history.

Heh. I read these, and I wonder if you're talking about the Insurgents in Fallujah, or the U.S. Army. Hard to tell. They chose the field of battle. They impose their will on us by choosing where we fight. And we waste our resources fighting there.


Quite interesting. In The last OBL tape, the guy says basically that, that Alqaeda strikes, and the US imediatly follows them where they go, but he analyses this in a financial perspective: Each dollar Alqaeda spends means thousands of dollars spent by the US. The freak wants to bleed the US financially, and he is doing just that.

Quite interesting. In The last OBL tape, the guy says basically that, that Alqaeda strikes, and the US imediatly follows them where they go, but he analyses this in a financial perspective: Each dollar Alqaeda spends means thousands of dollars spent by the US. The freak wants to bleed the US financially, and he is doing just that.

Terrorist read 'The Art of War' too. ;)

Yes, but it's so fun ripping him a new one. He doesn't understand the first thing about the military or warfare. All he knows is that he hates President Bush.

Boy, I hate getting ripped a new one. :D

edit: Oh, and my sentiments in this thread are not anti-Bush. You'll know my anti-Bush sentiments when you see them. ;) Not that I like Kerry any more, the narcissistic prick.

You give too much credit to Bush if you think the debacle in Iraq is his fault. Because he's not the strategist. I wouldn't let him run a game of Risk. Hehehe. (That was anti-Bush.) This is the fault of those generals that don't have the sense to know that they know best and keep coddling him. Assuming they are competent. I have to trust in the competency of american military command. Certainly they can't be incompetent enough to think that terrorists with savage tactics must have savage minds. Can they? :eek:

All an informed general has to do is look at Al Qaeda's actions in Indonesia to know exactly how they operate and see the sophistication behind their tactics and strategy. Whether through ignorance or spinelessness, these generals have not informed their Commander-In-Chief of the basic tactics and strategy of their enemy and insisted that if they are to command their armies, that they be allowed to command them efficiently.

tag

Here's my point about what we're actually doing in Iraq, rather than a bunch of disconnected pointless cut-and-paste jobs.

1. Sun Tzu said: Whoever is first in the field and awaits the coming of the enemy, will be fresh for the fight; whoever is second in the field and has to hasten to battle will arrive exhausted.

2. Therefore the clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy's will to be imposed on him.

3. By holding out advantages to him, he can cause the enemy to approach of his own accord; or, by inflicting damage, he can make it impossible for the enemy to draw near.

That's exactly what we're doing in Iraq, just as I stated before and now backed up by pertinent passages from Sun Tzu.


Boy are you looking through a glass darkly!

1. It's the US who are arriving exhausted at Falludja.
2. Quite right. Unfortunately the clever combatant -Al Qaeda ally Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is entrenched IN Falludja, not milling around outside like a bunch of fleas looking for a dog to bite. (He wasn't btw, in Iraq at all before the US toppled Saddam Hussein and made it easy for Al Quaida to move in to the vacuum caused - not to mention making it easy for all kinds of insurgents to get across the borders)
3. Yes. Al-Zarqawi has the advantages. He is indeed making it impossible for the US forces to draw near. And bombing the s**t out of him isn't making their jobs any easier. What the US Army needs is battle-hardened, trained men who are experienced in fighting guerilla tactics - which is why they've had to send for the Black Watch.

:p

Clowns read Sun Tzu too.