NationStates Jolt Archive

I don't claim to be Miss VRG but I know more about vegan sources and PETA/AVA animal rights stuff than your average human.

Ask whatever you like.

Why not eat meat?

Why are PETA a bunch of political terrorists that border on abusing children mentally by passing out 'Buckets of Blood'? They aren't mature enough to do anything about Kentucky Fried 'Cruelty' anyways, and just eat whatever their parents tell them too.

*shrugs*

Why not eat meat?
Because I do not personally believe it is natural to kill animals for human food. Animals may kill animals, but we have and unfair advantage over them and the capacity for self-restraint.

Why are PETA a bunch of political terrorists that border on abusing children mentally by passing out 'Buckets of Blood'? They aren't mature enough to do anything about Kentucky Fried 'Cruelty' anyways, and just eat whatever their parents tell them too.

*shrugs*
Wrong! Children have the capacity to understand cruelty to animals. PETA does not tell 4-yr-olds where their food comes from, it tells mature youth. I personally became vegetarian at age 8 and vegan at 12, and I have never considered myself "traumatized" by finding out the cruelties inflicted upon animals for being born in the wrong body.

How many animals have PETA ACTUALLY freed?

I mean a rough number, of course.

Why do veggies eat food that looks like meat (vegie-sausages, vegie-burgers etx) :)

Wrong! Children have the capacity to understand cruelty to animals. PETA does not tell 4-yr-olds where their food comes from, it tells mature youth. I personally became vegetarian at age 8 and vegan at 12, and I have never considered myself "traumatized" by finding out the cruelties inflicted upon animals for being born in the wrong body.
Uhm... Are you serious? Then what's up with this?
http://www.furisdead.com/momfur.html
It's from the actual PETA site, or the sub-site, furisdead.com

How many animals have PETA ACTUALLY freed?
They do not "free" animals, but they do stop sponsoring of cruel activities and encourage others not to create incentive to kill animals. Apparently, each of their vegetarians save 95 lives a year (their statistic, not mine).

Why do veggies eat food that looks like meat (vegie-sausages, vegie-burgers etx) :)
Because they have the same texture and an appealing aesthetic, but no dead animals.

I was vegan for a long time ... about 7 years. I was skinny and full of energy. I broke away from it about 3 years ago when I realized I was too nihilistic to really give a shit what a cow thought. I'm still full of energy, but not as skinny.

I broke my veganism with a Philly cheesesteak slathered in horseradish sauce and two kinds of cheese. I was sick for 2 days. I got over it, though.

I have never concerned myself with PETA or any other "animal rights" groups.

However, I will say this: It is a choice. If you're vegan, great! If you're vegetarian, great! If you eat nothing but raw meat on a stick, great!

But ..... YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL OTHERS HOW TO EAT!

Just keep that in mind and all will be well.

Meat eaters: Don't make fun of people for being vegetarians. 700,000,000+ Hindus can't be wrong.

Vegetarians: Don't call meat eaters barbaric for indulging themselves. Hedonism is a great way to live.

Uhm... Are you serious? Then what's up with this?
http://www.furisdead.com/momfur.html
It's from the actual PETA site, or the sub-site, furisdead.com
Whoah...pretty dirty tactics...but they dont want 4-year olds to become vegetarians, they want their mothers to become them and have the parents stop the kids from eating meat. Their main demographic is actually around age 14, the engage' age. But that kind of viciousness is the only way to uncover cruelty toward animals (though I prefer not to associate myself with PETA, with their ad hominem tactics).

I was vegan for a long time ... about 7 years. I was skinny and full of energy. I broke away from it about 3 years ago when I realized I was too nihilistic to really give a shit what a cow thought. I'm still full of energy, but not as skinny.

I broke my veganism with a Philly cheesesteak slathered in horseradish sauce and two kinds of cheese. I was sick for 2 days. I got over it, though.

I have never concerned myself with PETA or any other "animal rights" groups.

However, I will say this: It is a choice. If you're vegan, great! If you're vegetarian, great! If you eat nothing but raw meat on a stick, great!

But ..... YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL OTHERS HOW TO EAT!

Just keep that in mind and all will be well.

Meat eaters: Don't make fun of people for being vegetarians. 700,000,000+ Hindus can't be wrong.

Vegetarians: Don't call meat eaters barbaric for indulging themselves. Hedonism is a great way to live.
I completely agree with this. One of my friends is a vegetarian (Or trying hard to be) Also, where I live there are a lot of farmers. Not just crops, but animals. This is how they make thier living.

I was vegan for a long time ... about 7 years. I was skinny and full of energy. I broke away from it about 3 years ago when I realized I was too nihilistic to really give a shit what a cow thought. I'm still full of energy, but not as skinny.

I broke my veganism with a Philly cheesesteak slathered in horseradish sauce and two kinds of cheese. I was sick for 2 days. I got over it, though.

I have never concerned myself with PETA or any other "animal rights" groups.

However, I will say this: It is a choice. If you're vegan, great! If you're vegetarian, great! If you eat nothing but raw meat on a stick, great!

But ..... YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL OTHERS HOW TO EAT!

Just keep that in mind and all will be well.

Meat eaters: Don't make fun of people for being vegetarians. 700,000,000+ Hindus can't be wrong.

Vegetarians: Don't call meat eaters barbaric for indulging themselves. Hedonism is a great way to live.
Well, I like to inform them of the facts, like how hot dogs still contain rat parts and mcdonalds hamburgers often have more bacterium than dog feces (actual facts)... but I dont consciously try to convert them, I just like them to understand why I do it.

Because I do not personally believe it is natural to kill animals for human food. Animals may kill animals, but we have and unfair advantage over them and the capacity for self-restraint.

It's as natural as killing plants for human food. In fact, it's been a dietary requirement of most regions for countless centuries.

What do vegans even eat? They have such little food choice that I was just curious.

And why do so many vegeterians/vegans (not all) call it upon themselves to criticize meat eaters and hunters for their way of life?

What do vegans even eat? They have such little food choice that I was just curious.

There is a huge food choice. The variety of vegetables, fruits, grains, berries, nuts, herbs, and ways of preparing them is virtually unlimited.

What do vegans even eat? They have such little food choice that I was just curious.

And why do so many vegeterians/vegans (not all) call it upon themselves to criticize meat eaters and hunters for their way of life?
I dont criticize others...I inform them of my side of the argument, the argument for self-restraint, and request they do nothing more than tell me their side of the argument, for traditional meals. :)

Also, if you do some research, you will find that there is a vegan alternative to practically everything. Have you ever heard of Pangea chewing gum? Didn'ty think so. Yes, it exists.

I've been a vegatarian for all my life. I have never eat meat. And I don't intend to. I take disgust to people eating cows and what not. I, personnaly, think its horrible. But thats me. Meh. I also don't like the fact that millions of animals are killed for food. Why can't we all live like vegatarians? (That was a joke, don't take offence to it.) Most of my friends are meat eaters, and I never eat with them except my girlfriend (but thats a different story). It makes me sick....

I've been a vegatarian for all my life. I have never eat meat. And I don't intend to. I take disgust to people eating cows and what not. I, personnaly, think its horrible. But thats me. Meh. I also don't like the fact that millions of animals are killed for food. Why can't we all live like vegatarians? (That was a joke, don't take offence to it.) Most of my friends are meat eaters, and I never eat with them except my girlfriend (but thats a different story). It makes me sick....
I know what you mean... the smell of meat makes me vomit (too much information!)

You know, something just occured to me. Someone should start one of these threads for "Ask a Nader voter." So, if you vote Nader, start something to explain yourself now! Cuz I dont vote Nader, so I couldn't.

Why do some vegetarians propagate that being a Vegetarian is more natural than being an omnivore?

Why do the Vegan version of Chicken Nuggets at my school cafeteria have a taste and texture more like real chicken than the chicken nuggets made out of chicken?

Why do some vegetarians propagate that being a Vegetarian is more natural than being an omnivore?
Because people have the self-restraint and free will to choose not to eat animals. And cuz it fits on a bumper sticker.

Why do the Vegan version of Chicken Nuggets at my school cafeteria have a taste and texture more like real chicken than the chicken nuggets made out of chicken?
Cus the providers and imitaters are really good at what they do. :d

Because people have the self-restraint and free will to choose not to eat animals.
Which is itself not natural and therefore doesn't answer my question.

Which is itself not natural and therefore doesn't answer my question.
Oh, so now you have some grudge against free will, huh (JJ,JJ)

Seriously, though, we just say that because it is a nice argument against people who think cruel and unusual ways of killing animals is good cuz its natural. A better response would be "But keeping them imprisoned for thein life is not natural." Ah, well.

But ..... YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL OTHERS HOW TO EAT!

Just keep that in mind and all will be well.

Meat eaters: Don't make fun of people for being vegetarians. 700,000,000+ Hindus can't be wrong.

Vegetarians: Don't call meat eaters barbaric for indulging themselves. Hedonism is a great way to live.

I wish vegans would figure out they don't have the right to tell meat-eaters that it's wrong to eat meat. I find it offensive that I should be told what to do with my body just as much as anyone else.
2. Hindus aren't vegetarian, they eat chicken and fish which are still meat.

I wish vegans would figure out they don't have the right to tell meat-eaters that it's wrong to eat meat. I find it offensive that I should be told what to do with my body just as much as anyone else.
2. Hindus aren't vegetarian, they eat chicken and fish which are still meat.
As I said, I try not to go all Mormon on everyone and scream "CONVERT! OR FACE ETERNAL DAMNATION" but it gets so hard sometimes T.T

Actually, there are different degrees of vegetarianism. Many vegetarians do not consider fish and poultry to be meat.

Oh, so now you have some grudge against free will, huh (JJ,JJ)

Seriously, though, we just say that because it is a nice argument against people who think cruel and unusual ways of killing animals is good cuz its natural. A better response would be "But keeping them imprisoned for thein life is not natural." Ah, well.
That's why I go out and catch my own food some of the time. Squirrels, other rodents, snakes, lizards all make for good eating. Although sometimes I will go after bigger game. It's much more fun than going out to the store to buy the pre packaged and prefabricated foods. It can also be good exercise too.

That's why I go out and catch my own food some of the time. Squirrels, other rodents, snakes, lizards all make for good eating. Although sometimes I will go after bigger game. It's much more fun than going out to the store to buy the pre packaged and prefabricated foods. It can also be good exercise too.
I love fair gamers! No disgusting bacterium. If you have to eat meat, make it fair meat! And you don't have to worry about stuff like federal laws that "restrict" the number of rat hairs in "most" foods to one per gram.

Also, if you do some research, you will find that there is a vegan alternative to practically everything. Have you ever heard of Pangea chewing gum? Didn'ty think so. Yes, it exists.

How long have those been around? How prevalent are they? How expensive are they?

Oh, so now you have some grudge against free will, huh (JJ,JJ)

Seriously, though, we just say that because it is a nice argument against people who think cruel and unusual ways of killing animals is good cuz its natural. A better response would be "But keeping them imprisoned for thein life is not natural." Ah, well.

Keeping them imprisonned for life is a side-effect of humanity and our dietary requirements. There is a simple solution to this that will still allow vegetarians to continue their unnatural practices and meat-eaters to continue murdering innocent animals: I'll allow you to choose the 4.5 billion people that are to die.

I don't claim to be Miss VRG but I know more about vegan sources and PETA/AVA animal rights stuff than your average human.

Ask whatever you like.

What have you done to spare the lives of the billions of insects who die yearly from pesticides used in the textile & agriculture industries?

Why do we always see animal rights activists throwing paint on old ladies' fur coats, but never on Hell Angels' leathers?

Apparently, each of their vegetarians save 95 lives a year (their statistic, not mine).

Obviously they're not including field mice, voles, & other small animals killed by combines in agriculture, nor are they counting pesticide deaths.

Speaking of PETA, what did they do recently that warranted them being ripped on, on the last episode of South Park? They usually don't go after people without a reason.

700,000,000+ Hindus can't be wrong.

Yes, that's why India's standard of living, military might, & economic output far outstrips the rest of the world.

I dont criticize others...I inform them of my side of the argument, the argument for self-restraint, and request they do nothing more than tell me their side of the argument, for traditional meals. :)


You know what? I don't care what anybody else eats or what their lifestyle is as long as the don't "inform me of their side of the arguement". I really do know a lot of the reasons that people are vegan/vegetarian. Also, as a meat eater and a hunter I have a lot more reasons for eating meat for "traditional meals."

1. I like meat. (I think it tastes good, simple as that.)
2. A lot of the livestock type animals (example-cows) would not really be around if we didn't eat them (point taken from comedian off of Last Comic Standing), nobody goes on a wildlife tour to go see a cow. Farmers wouldn't take care of them if nobody ate cows. There might be a few in the wild, but there probably wouldn't be as many as right now.
3. Hunting is enjoyable to me, bowhunting only, and it saves my family money. If we pack and eat meat that we kill, it is much less expensive than buying meat from the grocery store.
4. I don't care about "self-restraint" and feel no reason to change to a vegan diet because even though some people say that you are healthier if you are vegetarian or vegan, I don't think that it is impossible to be healthy and still eat meat, and I'm not fat yet from eating meat, so at the moment I'm not too concerned.

Actually, there are different degrees of vegetarianism. Many vegetarians do not consider fish and poultry to be meat.

Then they are not vegetarian. What are fish and birds if not animals...are they plants? fungii...bacterium??? NO!!!!

I always take issue with these false veggies ;)

Another question:

Do animal rights organizations also try to protect insects? Because after all if absolutely everything has to be equal you can't just leave insects out of the mix, that's just unfair.

If they do include insects, should they even be allowed to drive cars for fear of killing a bug that flies into their windshield?

"I don't mind people being vegetarians or not, as long as nothing causes EVERYONE to become a vegetarian.In theory, after many many generations of vegetarians, people wouldn't be able to eat meat without being sick."
This is what my friend says.What's your opinion on this?

My only qualm with veganism is the health aspect. I have read scientific studies that show vegans often suffer from a lack of vitamin B6, which only comes from animal products (that or monthly injections). Having too little of it can interfere with digestion and mental functions. How do you counter that?

Then they are not vegetarian. What are fish and birds if not animals...are they plants? fungii...bacterium??? NO!!!!

I always take issue with these false veggies ;)

Well, technically yeast, used to make bread is an animal.

I don't really mind vegetarians, vegans, whatever as long as they don't critize me. If they do, I remind them that they base quality of life off cuteness.

Do most vegans know that, whereas animals are dead when you eat them, many fruits and vegetables are alive on a cellular level when you consume them?

Oh, but I will like to point out that, although humans have always been omnivores, meat did not have precedence in food like today. Until the 19th century, no major civilization feed it's inhabitants with less than 50% grains and vegetables.

it makes me sad when people justify eating cows by saying that if we didn't, they wouldn't exist. :( how would you like being part of an entire race born into slavery? though cows may not comprehend this, the concept of this practice saddens me...i became a vegetarian for several reasons...1)health, it dramatically reduces your chances of breast cancer and heart disease,which run in my family...2) morals, i converted to buddhism a while ago and it made me re-examine my life choices...3) taste, i realized upon (vegetarian) conversion that my taste buds had been dulled by so much red meat...

what i really don't understand is why i get more flack than i give about being vegetarian...i've given up converting my friends but they still harrass me about it...can't we all just get along?

what i really don't understand is why i get more flack than i give about being vegetarian...i've given up converting my friends but they still harrass me about it...can't we all just get along?

We would all get along if each side would just back off and stop trying to convert each other, vegetarian to omnivore-omnivore to vegetarian, when most people don't want to be converted and just want people to respect the way they live their life.

Vegetarians or vegans don't bother me as long as they don't hound me and others about becoming vegetarian, and I don't tell vegetarians that they should eat meat.

it makes me sad when people justify eating cows by saying that if we didn't, they wouldn't exist. :( how would you like being part of an entire race born into slavery? though cows may not comprehend this, the concept of this practice saddens me...i became a vegetarian for several reasons...1)health, it dramatically reduces your chances of breast cancer and heart disease,which run in my family...2) morals, i converted to buddhism a while ago and it made me re-examine my life choices...3) taste, i realized upon (vegetarian) conversion that my taste buds had been dulled by so much red meat...

what i really don't understand is why i get more flack than i give about being vegetarian...i've given up converting my friends but they still harrass me about it...can't we all just get along?

I'll quote myself on the cow issue:

Keeping them imprisoned for life is a side-effect of humanity and our dietary requirements. There is a simple solution to this that will still allow vegetarians to continue their unnatural practices and meat-eaters to continue murdering innocent animals: I'll allow you to choose the 4.5 billion people that are to die.

1) Health? You're sacrificing part of your health by doing this. There are certain things humanity requires that can only be found in meat.

2) Buddhism does not, the last time I checked, forbid meat.

3) Taste? Give me a break. I eat meat and my taste buds are far above snuff. Your problem was nasal, not oral.

4) The trying to convert people is why vegans get so much flak. It's also part of why Christianity suffers from so much hatred. People don't like you trying to shove your opinions down their throats.

5) No, we can't all get along. The reason is a simple fact of both sides feeling superior to the other. As long as that exists, neither side will get along. And you are just as guilty as, if not more than, I am.

vegan vegetarian????

Beef tastes good. Our bodies need meat to survive, we were always meant to eat it. If you don't want to and will take vitamins or something to take the place of the nutrients in meat, fine. Just don't harass me about how it's morally wrong eating a cheeseburger.. Yum, burger good!!

Meat eaters: Don't make fun of people for being vegetarians. 700,000,000+ Hindus can't be wrong.




Im Hindu. Religion and culture plays a role, but I would say that the single biggest reason there are so many Indian vegitarians is because animal products are relatively expensive. So many people grow up eating purely vegitarian. So later in life, even if they have the money to blow they dont really think about it.

And yes, 700,000,000 Hindua can be wrong if they dont have viable alternatives. Beef of course is religiously proscribed but we have plenty of chickens, goats,fish ect.

Im Hindu. Religion and culture plays a role, but I would say that the single biggest reason there are so many Indian vegitarians is because animal products are relatively expensive. So many people grow up eating purely vegitarian. So later in life, even if they have the money to blow they dont really think about it.

And yes, 700,000,000 Hindua can be wrong if they dont have viable alternatives. Beef of course is religiously proscribed but we have plenty of chickens, goats,fish ect.

Goat, eh? Now whats that taste like?

Beef tastes good. Our bodies need meat to survive, we were always meant to eat it. If you don't want to and will take vitamins or something to take the place of the nutrients in meat, fine. Just don't harass me about how it's morally wrong eating a cheeseburger.. Yum, burger good!!
That is ridiculous. Contrary to popular misconception, technology has become advanced enough to imitate every aspect of meat, from taste to texture to nutrients. Vegan vegetarians sacrifice a bit of body mass in the process, but we are actually more healthy than omnivores-- Meats contain so many bacterium and have so few federal regulations to control harmful ingredients (including many carcinogens), you could convert to vegetarianism on the basis of health alone. But this is my choice on mostly moral, not medical, grounds.

[QUOTE=DemonLordEnigma]I'll quote myself on the cow issue:





2) Buddhism does not, the last time I checked, forbid meat.

QUOTE]

Buddhism does not forbid eating meat but it does add a kharmic negativity to it. Oddly enough eating a steak is better kharmically than eating a shrimp cocktail (1 life vs 10)

Goat, eh? Now whats that taste like?

goat curry is awesome!!!! much better than lamb. Especially if its a "wild" goat vs the factory fed version.

Fried sheep brains is great too, especially when your drunk. So, you get drunk and eat Brain fry for dinner. Wake up and to counter your hangover you have steak and eggs with coffee and OJ. MMMM Im getting hungry just thinking about it. Too bad I cant get good brain fry in New York.

That is ridiculous. Contrary to popular misconception, technology has become advanced enough to imitate every aspect of meat, from taste to texture to nutrients. Vegan vegetarians sacrifice a bit of body mass in the process, but we are actually more healthy than omnivores-- Meats contain so many bacterium and have so few federal regulations to control harmful ingredients (including many carcinogens), you could convert to vegetarianism on the basis of health alone. But this is my choice on mostly moral, not medical, grounds.

I wouldn't get too confident and say that ALL vegan vegetarians are more healthy than omnivores.

I know a vegetarian, she isn't particulary thin and she doesn't really look all that healthy.

That is ridiculous. Contrary to popular misconception, technology has become advanced enough to imitate every aspect of meat, from taste to texture to nutrients. Vegan vegetarians sacrifice a bit of body mass in the process, but we are actually more healthy than omnivores-- Meats contain so many bacterium and have so few federal regulations to control harmful ingredients (including many carcinogens), you could convert to vegetarianism on the basis of health alone. But this is my choice on mostly moral, not medical, grounds.

Technology may give alternatives but nature had us need to eat meat origionaly. Regardless, like I said beef tastes good. If I gave it up I wouldn't be able to have burgers or tacos anymore. Would be a shame not to have a taco. Beef! It's whats for dinner!

What do you think the role of Queen Margaret is Shakespeare's "Richard III"?

What have you done to spare the lives of the billions of insects who die yearly from pesticides used in the textile & agriculture industries?

Why do we always see animal rights activists throwing paint on old ladies' fur coats, but never on Hell Angels' leathers?
Cus its easier to pick on old rich ladies than gangsters. And much more fun.

Seriously, though, vegans don't wear fur (obviously cruel), leather (ditto), silk (the worms are murdered immediately after they have reached their peak and produced the threads-- boiled to death, in fact), or wool (because it supports lamb chops indirectly). I also personally don't wear anyhting made by someone paid less per hour than I do babysitting, which covers the whole human rights issue, but that's just communism, not vegetarianism.

[QUOTE=DemonLordEnigma]I'll quote myself on the cow issue:





2) Buddhism does not, the last time I checked, forbid meat.

QUOTE]

Buddhism does not forbid eating meat but it does add a kharmic negativity to it. Oddly enough eating a steak is better kharmically than eating a shrimp cocktail (1 life vs 10)



Lordy lordy, I dont think anything could be less buddhist than legislating the quantity of karma for eating shrimp vs beef.

I know a vegetarian, she isn't particulary thin and she doesn't really look all that healthy.
And have you compared blood samples lately?

Cus its easier to pick on old rich ladies than gangsters. And much more fun.

Seriously, though, vegans don't wear fur (obviously cruel), leather (ditto), silk (the worms are murdered immediately after they have reached their peak and produced the threads-- boiled to death, in fact), or wool (because it supports lamb chops indirectly). I also personally don't wear anyhting made by someone paid less per hour than I do babysitting, which covers the whole human rights issue, but that's just communism, not vegetarianism.

In the process making something as simple as shopping for clothes so much more complicated than it has to be.

That is ridiculous. Contrary to popular misconception, technology has become advanced enough to imitate every aspect of meat, from taste to texture to nutrients. Vegan vegetarians sacrifice a bit of body mass in the process, but we are actually more healthy than omnivores-- Meats contain so many bacterium and have so few federal regulations to control harmful ingredients (including many carcinogens), you could convert to vegetarianism on the basis of health alone. But this is my choice on mostly moral, not medical, grounds.

Which is getting into genetic engineering and other such technologies, thus raising another arguement on morality. And, you might want to use logic on that part about bacterium instead of just its existance.

Bacteria is actually a necessity. If we do not get enough exposure to it, our bloodlines will become inferior in the immunity area against certain pathogens. Then, one good bacterial disease and you lose billions. And it wouldn't take much to transform a bacteria in meat to being a deadly pathogen travelling from person to person outside of being eaten with meat. Thus, part of my problem with how medical science is today. So, on the health basis, I must eat meat to look out for my descendants and make sure they have a genetic resistance to certain pathogens just in case.

Not eating meat actually won't help in the loss of weight according to my own experience. I know a few vegetarians nearing 300 lbs. It is the reduction of fat intake, not the reduction of meat, that helps affect weight.

Oh, you are also arguing against your own morality. The meat alternatives are no where near natural.

I'm terribly partial to leather shoes.

What if the leather comes from an animal whose death was unrelated to the use of its hide for shoes?

goat curry is awesome!!!! much better than lamb. Especially if its a "wild" goat vs the factory fed version.

Fried sheep brains is great too, especially when your drunk. So, you get drunk and eat Brain fry for dinner. Wake up and to counter your hangover you have steak and eggs with coffee and OJ. MMMM Im getting hungry just thinking about it. Too bad I cant get good brain fry in New York.
How...exotic...

I wouldnt eat brains simply because I dont want a nasty prion disease like mad cow or the human verison.

Cus its easier to pick on old rich ladies than gangsters. And much more fun.

Seriously, though, vegans don't wear fur (obviously cruel), leather (ditto), silk (the worms are murdered immediately after they have reached their peak and produced the threads-- boiled to death, in fact), or wool (because it supports lamb chops indirectly). I also personally don't wear anyhting made by someone paid less per hour than I do babysitting, which covers the whole human rights issue, but that's just communism, not vegetarianism.

So you spend all of your time running around stark-naked? Hell, you just eliminated every brand of clothing and just about every type of clothing that exists in the U.S.

I'm terribly partial to leather shoes.

What if the leather comes from an animal whose death was unrelated to the use of its hide for shoes?
You could wear pleather. It smells better, too. And if you mean for orthopedic value, there are alternatives there, too. Check out http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/leather.htm

You could wear pleather. It smells better, too. And if you mean for orthopedic value, there are alternatives there, too. Check out http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/leather.htm


Hmmn, perhaps, but I doubt it could match the comfort of the leather shoes I have.

Simply because... they are perfect :)

So you spend all of your time running around stark-naked? Hell, you just eliminated every brand of clothing and just about every type of clothing that exists in the U.S.

No silly they make their own clothes. :)

So you spend all of your time running around stark-naked? Hell, you just eliminated every brand of clothing and just about every type of clothing that exists in the U.S.
There are lotsa stuff...people wear less animal than they realize...and if you hate polyester, spandex, etc, there is always good ol' environmentally friendly 100% cotton.

There are lotsa stuff...people wear less animal than they realize...and if you hate polyester, spandex, etc, there is always good ol' environmentally friendly 100% cotton.


And linen, linen is made out of flax

What about wool? Sheep *enjoy* being sheered and sheep who live to grow wool live lives of absolute luxury.

Seriously, though, vegans don't wear fur (obviously cruel), leather (ditto), silk (the worms are murdered immediately after they have reached their peak and produced the threads-- boiled to death, in fact), or wool (because it supports lamb chops indirectly). I also personally don't wear anyhting made by someone paid less per hour than I do babysitting, which covers the whole human rights issue, but that's just communism, not vegetarianism.

What about cotton? IIRC, about half of all pesticides used in the US are used in cotton production. Chances are more innocents die for a t-shirt than for a leather jacket. If you really want to save lives, go leather.

There are lotsa stuff...people wear less animal than they realize...and if you hate polyester, spandex, etc, there is always good ol' environmentally friendly 100% cotton.

Actually, I prefer cotton. But that's a comfort thing.

The problem is that the corporations that don't use the materials on your list happen to ship their jobs overseas, where the combined wages of 20-100 people might equal minimum wage. Most of the time, they keep quiet about it. And, sadly, I have yet to find a major corporation in the U.S. that doesn't do it. You might catch the occasional Mom and Pop store that makes those, but they are more likely to use animal products.

What about cotton? IIRC, about half of all pesticides used in the US are used in cotton production. Chances are more innocents die for a t-shirt than for a leather jacket. If you really want to save lives, go leather.


No, go WOOL

If a sheep is to be fed and kept healthy so that it's lovely wool can be used to make clothing, it CANNOT BE KILLED.

Also, if you boycott wool you will be harming the sheep dogs in a terrible way.

http://ksvm.agri.huji.ac.il/images/dogi-a.jpg

And linen, linen is made out of flax

What about wool? Sheep *enjoy* being sheered and sheep who live to grow wool live lives of absolute luxury.
Until thay get too expensive to care for and the wool gets too gray and brittle and they become whatever you call old lambchops.

Until thay get too expensive to care for and the wool gets too gray and brittle and they become whatever you call old lambchops.


Lambchops are from LAMBS not nasty crusty old sheep.

Every sheep that produces wool is a sheep that is NOT slaughtered as a lamb for food.

And herding sheep is the bread of life for sheep dogs, you are hurting them most of all.

Sheering sheep is good for them, just like milking a cow which doesn't kill them either. Far as I know, you don't eat dairy cows.

Do you find yourself lacking in energy?
Do you have to take iron supplements/ assorted vitamins?

There are lotsa stuff...people wear less animal than they realize...and if you hate polyester, spandex, etc, there is always good ol' environmentally friendly 100% cotton.

Why are you so indifferent to our tiny insect brethren? Aren't they cuddly enough for you?

Old sheep die of old age or go to petting zoos.

If they werent used for wool, they would live for the purpose of reproducing, only to have their young slaughtered.

Until thay get too expensive to care for and the wool gets too gray and brittle and they become whatever you call old lambchops.

If there wool wasn't used than sheep wouldn't be kept alive for as near as long. They would be used for lambchops after a year or so, instead of many years of being healthy.

One other problem vegans have is not being allowed to take certain vitamins to replace the ones they cannot get from not eating meat and staying on a natural diet. Why? Let's just say it's easier to get B6 from the animal.

Here's a question I ask anyone interested in animal rights. It's hypothetical, and my favorite scenario.

If you could hit a button that would eliminate the entire human race and restore the planet to a pristine natural state, would you? :D

Well, I like to inform them of the facts, like how hot dogs still contain rat parts and mcdonalds hamburgers often have more bacterium than dog feces (actual facts)... but I dont consciously try to convert them, I just like them to understand why I do it.

I personally am annoyed by the scare tactis that people employ with that type of information (i.e. hamburgers having more bacteria than dog feces). I mean, it still tastes delicious and massive ammounts of people aren't dying from the stuff (otherwise no one would eat meat). If you are worried about bacteria and nasty stuff then you should live in a bubble. Your hands are covered in human feces all the time just from you touching door knobs and turning off an on light switches not to mention everything else you touch. So I really think that eating trace particles of feces and eating lots of bacteria is waaaaay over-rated. People are designed to take in really nasty stuff (I mean, we have evolved over millions of years to have terrific immune systems) and trying to avoid it will only make you unhappy, not any healthier (there are even statistics that show that people who are exposed to more bacteria and feces tend to get sick less often since their immune systems get stronger than others).

look, humans don't have to eat meat to live.the *only* thing you can't get from plants is vitamin b12, and if you look you can find b12 supplements...

the reason people try to convert others from or to anything is b/c when they see someone doing something they feel is wrong, they feel the need to stop them. it's an act of charity and good intentions. i personally don't mind being bothered about converting to say, christianity,as i know that i've made the right choice for me religiously and will stand by it, but i do mind apathy.isn't passion better than contentment?

also, not to try and provoke anyone, but i've noticed lots of people lately who say "oh, no, you can't force children to work long hours for no pay, that's cruel" or "war is wrong b/c it kills innocents" or "animal testing is wrong" or "i would never eat MY pet you filthy asians!"......then they go home and eat the remains of a veal calf who's lived it's whole life in a box so it's meat wouldn't get tough....i'm just confused by that....someone please explain why some cruelty is ok when other cruelty is unacceptable? :headbang:

It isn't EVERYBODY'S opinion that eating meat is cruel. That is the reason that some "cruelty" is accepted, not everyone has the same opinions or point of view about what is cruel and what isn't. You think that it is cruel to eat a steak, I feel differently and feel absolutely no remorse in eating meat.

Why are you so indifferent to our tiny insect brethren? Aren't they cuddly enough for you?

You enjoy clouds of mosquitoes? I surely don't. Ladybugs help crops, bees give us honey, flies and blood suckers annoy us and should be squished and poisoned at every oppourtunity.

look, humans don't have to eat meat to live.the *only* thing you can't get from plants is vitamin b12, and if you look you can find b12 supplements...

Those come from animals. Looks like you're no longer a vegan.

the reason people try to convert others from or to anything is b/c when they see someone doing something they feel is wrong, they feel the need to stop them. it's an act of charity and good intentions. i personally don't mind being bothered about converting to say, christianity,as i know that i've made the right choice for me religiously and will stand by it, but i do mind apathy.isn't passion better than contentment?

There is a difference between trying to convert someone in a nice way and telling them they are going to go to Hell or die of hundreds of diseases just because they don't see it your way or trying to look superiour while talking.

also, not to try and provoke anyone, but i've noticed lots of people lately who say "oh, no, you can't force children to work long hours for no pay, that's cruel" or "war is wrong b/c it kills innocents" or "animal testing is wrong" or "i would never eat MY pet you filthy asians!"......then they go home and eat the remains of a veal calf who's lived it's whole life in a box so it's meat wouldn't get tough....i'm just confused by that....someone please explain why some cruelty is ok when other cruelty is unacceptable? :headbang:

It's called life. A certain amount of cruelty must exist in order for us to exist. If you're not being cruel to some poor animal, you're being cruel to some poor plant and murdering it or taking away its offspring. You want no cruelty? Then engineer a disease to destroy humanity.

b12 vitamins cost money anyway. Better to buy meat and get your nutrients the regular way.

You want no cruelty? Then engineer a disease to destroy humanity.

Sigh. If only..

Okay--if anyone answers yes to that question (of a button to "delete" the human race), I kindly ask you to deselect yourself from the gene pool and leave the rest of us to exist.

I was brought up vegetarian. I had no choice in the matter as a child, and for the most part, found any alternative foods that I was restricted from eating very appealing. Needless to say, after attending probably among the most liberal colleges with a rather large number of militant vegans, I was the only person to go from being vegetarian to eating meat vs. the opposite directly. Now I slug down cheese burgers with relish, albeit with mild trepidation due to the rediculously lax standards put in place by the FDA. (Actually, some of the FDA restrictions are grossly and maliciously negligent IMNSHO--ie. not being PERMITTED to TEST for mad cow disease, etc.). However, I do tend to avoid fast-food meat. For safety's sake, it's always better to buy organic or kosher meat as the quality is likely to be far higher. More safety precautions.

Honestly, I for the morality of eating meat or not eating meat: I couldn't care less. Meat has vitamins. No meats tend to have less cholesterol, fats, and toxins.

A better argument would be on the safety and practice of factory farming, how destructive it is to our water supply and the lack of sustainability to our natural resources. The run-off from such facilities is incredibly dangerous to our water supply, as toxins seep into ground-water. I tend to be very human-centric (I feel that self-awareness supercedes everything, effectively). But to that extent, I'm concerned about the long-term viability of the human race given the increasing toxicity of farmland and necessary biological resources (clean water supplies/food).

g.e.
Spokesdude for TFPotJW

You enjoy clouds of mosquitoes? I surely don't. Ladybugs help crops, bees give us honey, flies and blood suckers annoy us and should be squished and poisoned at every oppourtunity.

I don't give a shit about the insects--I'm just pointing out vegan hypocrisy.

Okay--if anyone answers yes to that question (of a button to "delete" the human race), I kindly ask you to deselect yourself from the gene pool and leave the rest of us to exist.



I resent that. >:/ I'm entitled to my own misanthropic opinion. :P

Sigh. If only..
What happened to the monkey business virus that I gave you last month that turns humans into apes?

What happened to the monkey business virus that I gave you last month that turns humans into apes?

It worked. I became a Republican for a few days until it wore off.

It worked. I became a Republican for a few days until it wore off.
Didn’t I tell you that it was too dangerous to use on yourself? What if the transformation became permanent?


Or did I forget to tell you that part? :confused:

I don't give a shit about the insects--I'm just pointing out vegan hypocrisy.

Everyone seems to be hypocritical. But as far as I know some do want to save insects. I heard on the news of an envirnmental group getting an injuction to stop a housing development to protect a pond with a rare form of algae. Insects must be above that!

Wrong! Children have the capacity to understand cruelty to animals. PETA does not tell 4-yr-olds where their food comes from, it tells mature youth. I personally became vegetarian at age 8 and vegan at 12, and I have never considered myself "traumatized" by finding out the cruelties inflicted upon animals for being born in the wrong body.



Tell that to the vegetarians that came to my city and bugged children during lunch hour in the cafeteria for having ham sandwich. These kids were 5, 6 and 7 years and the Principal had to have these vegetarians escorted off the school because of the disturbance they were making. Leave little kids alone, they actually need meat in their diet and I don't give a damn, I don't need it, but I sure as hell don't want to eat carrots, celeri, broccoli and spinach for supper for the rest of my life.

Honestly, the going into a school to berate kids for eating meat is inexcusable. They deserve a savage beating with a catfish. (gotta love razor sharp barbs)

Hey the doctrine of people has always been to get them when their young. Animal rights groups just want to take something from the tobacco companies book. Indoctrinate the young!!!! Meat is bad!!!!!! Dumb. Why not eat meat?

Im Hindu. Religion and culture plays a role, but I would say that the single biggest reason there are so many Indian vegitarians is because animal products are relatively expensive. So many people grow up eating purely vegitarian. So later in life, even if they have the money to blow they dont really think about it.

And yes, 700,000,000 Hindua can be wrong if they dont have viable alternatives. Beef of course is religiously proscribed but we have plenty of chickens, goats,fish ect.


Oooooh ... well ... okie dokie then. It's just that all the Hindus I've known have been religiously vegetarian, so I figured it was standard. I don't know much about the religion except that it's positively ancient (older even than Judaism).

I stand corrected.

However! It still is not fair for a meat eater to make fun of a vegetarian.

I mean ... I don't eat deer. Not because it isn't a tastey animal and not because I think it is morally wrong, but because Deer is my family totem and for me to eat deer meat would be like cannibalism.

Hey the doctrine of people has always been to get them when their young. Animal rights groups just want to take something from the tobacco companies book. Indoctrinate the young!!!! Meat is bad!!!!!! Dumb. Why not eat meat?




Still, let little kids eat in peace and bug their parents if you need to invade people's lives like that.

However! It still is not fair for a meat eater to make fun of a vegetarian.

I mean ... I don't eat deer. Not because it isn't a tastey animal and not because I think it is morally wrong, but because Deer is my family totem and for me to eat deer meat would be like cannibalism.

It also is not fair for vegetarians to try to sound uppity because they don't eat meat. It's called life.

The totem thing, however, I understand.

Still, let little kids eat in peace and bug their parents if you need to invade people's lives like that.

Yes. Get billboards and TV ads like everyone else if you want to communicate a message.

I see some questions have been left unawnsered. I'm a vegetarian, not a vegan, so on some points i may have a different awnser then the one who started the thread.

Suicidal Librarians:
Do animal rights organizations also try to protect insects? Because after all if absolutely everything has to be equal you can't just leave insects out of the mix, that's just unfair.

Well yes insects are animals too, and i wouldnt want to eat them..
Here's my philosophy: Whenever possible i try to avoid killing living beings. Avoiding killing insects by driving a car (your point of the insects being squashed at windscreens) is not possible, so i don't try to. I personally don't think avoiding the use of leather shoes is possible either, so i have shoes made of cowskin.
Another point is relevant here. It can be proven that animals have different abilities to suffer. While an insect may only be able to experience physical pain, a fish can experience stress (has recently been proven). More intelligent animals like dolphins, pigs, apes and humans can even suffer mentally. So killing or harming insects can ultimately create less suffering then doing the same with pigs or humans. For me that's reason enough to give the prevention of unjust treatment to more intelligent beings priority over the treatment of insects.
Sometimes ppl use the silly argument 'but you kill plants too'. Well, i can easily counter that argument by saying that plants are unable to suffer.

Dhomme:
Do you find yourself lacking in energy? Do you have to take iron supplements/ assorted vitamins?

Personally i don't experience a lack of energy. I'm doing an extended program at the university at the moment, and everything goes without a problem ;). Heavy sports are no problem either. I have rowed for some time, and had no problem to keep up with the other. Off course these are only my own experiences, i dont know the statistics for this.
I do hear that people who recently switched to a vegetarian diet sometimes complain of a lack of energy. That's probably because the body is used to the kind of nutrients that meat provides (quick energy boosts vs slower energy absorption). Because i've never really had a non-vegetarian diet, i dont know much about this. Maybe other users of this forum could tell you more about it.

About the iron/vitamin supplements. With a vegetarian diet it's not hard to get everything you need from your normal meal. If you prefer some more iron, you can just eat some more spinach or broccoli. As far as i know the only thing you'll miss is vitamin b12 (has been mentioned before in this thread). You can take this in a supplement, but most meat-alternatives also have this vitamin added. I've heard that with a vegan diet things may be a bit more difficult, but again i'm not the expert on that.

Yes. Get billboards and TV ads like everyone else if you want to communicate a message.

I don't know about the TV ads. Not too long ago PETA tried to get public Nebraska TV stations to air one of their ads "promoting vegetarianism" that showed a chicken getting its beak burned off, a pig being beat with a brick, and I think there was also a sick, starving cow in it too. Promoting vegetarianism or grossing people out?

PETA tries to scare people into being vegetarians, not promote the "health benefits" of a non meat lifestyle.

What PETA succeeds in doing is branding all vegetarians as crazy nuts who deserve to be locked up for society's good. That is the other reason vegetarians come under attack so much.

life is murder, but murder is not life. does that makes sense? i try to reduce the number of animals i kill because i think murder is wrong (buddhist precept and christian commandment). is that a good enough reason?

life is murder, but murder is not life. does that makes sense? i try to reduce the number of animals i kill because i think murder is wrong (buddhist precept and christian commandment). is that a good enough reason?

No. You are still murdering innocent plants, innocent insects, innocent fungi, and innocent bacteria.

Do you wear leather?

I have been veggie for almost 8 years and vegan for 5. I feel great about that decision. The reality is that animals are beings capible of feeling pain, emotions and the like. Under factory farming they spend the vast majority of their lives in intense pain and under conditions where they can not even move. This is a fact overlooked often by those looking to justify their habits. And PETA/animal rights people are not terrorists but simply those looking to educate others about the suffering caused to other beings.

I have been veggie for almost 8 years and vegan for 5. I feel great about that decision. The reality is that animals are beings capible of feeling pain, emotions and the like. Under factory farming they spend the vast majority of their lives in intense pain and under conditions where they can not even move. This is a fact overlooked often by those looking to justify their habits. And PETA/animal rights people are not terrorists but simply those looking to educate others about the suffering caused to other beings.

I'm personally not a vegetarian or vegan, but I strongly disagree with things like breeding atrophied chickens and cutting beaks off… cruelties, basically. Only free range is what I eat.

Being moderate does make me feel morally weak though… ;)

Ok, back to the questions part of this thread.

You state that it is more natural to not eat meat. You then say that technology can imitate meat in all aspects. Are you stating that use of technology is 'natural'?

This also follows with your choice of clothing. You are essentially limited to about five garments, since you don't use wool or cheap Asian labor. What do you wear?

Do you believe that all usage of animals is wrong?

If so, what about dead animals?

If using dead animals is wrong, what about animals that have been dead a long time?

If that is wrong, why do you drive a car? Petroleum is a byproduct of dinosaurs that have decomposed into worldwide oil deposits.






"Save a plant
Eat a cow
I want meat
I want it now
I'm gonna eat it 'cause it's red
I'm gonna eat it 'cause it's dead
Maybe I should eat it raw
Let the blood run down my jaw
I'd eat people if it was legal
I'd eat people if it was legal!!!"

I have been veggie for almost 8 years and vegan for 5. I feel great about that decision. The reality is that animals are beings capible of feeling pain, emotions and the like. Under factory farming they spend the vast majority of their lives in intense pain and under conditions where they can not even move. This is a fact overlooked often by those looking to justify their habits. And PETA/animal rights people are not terrorists but simply those looking to educate others about the suffering caused to other beings.

PETA are terrorists and they give good, quiet, moral vegans a horrible name.

It is perfectly natural to eat meat. Our teeth prove this. I don't see how anyone can say it isn't natural. I mean you kill no matter what you eat. Plants are alive. Animals are alive. See?

PETA are terrorists and they give good, quiet, moral vegans a horrible name.

So do people who try to do this. (http://www.alternet.org/envirohealth/18767/)

No. You are still murdering innocent plants, innocent insects, innocent fungi, and innocent bacteria.

wait. let me make sure i've got this straight: YOU, presumed meat-eater, are telling ME that I kill too many innocents? have i got that right?you do realize i'm just eating the plants that you would so inefficiatly feed to the animals you plan to eat?thousands more plants are killed in feeding what will proportionally be a very small amount of meat than by people who just go right to the source...think about how much grain goes to feeding one cow, and how many humans that same amount of grain could feed...

point is, way fewer plants are killed by vegetarians.sorry to come off so smug but i'm tired of seeing the t-shirt that says "how many plants had to die for your stupid salad!?" ...i need to make one that says "way fewer than for your stupid cheeseburger!"

I am a chef by hobby, and would like to learn about the dietary restrictions of vegans. If you haven't done so can yuu provide links?

It is perfectly natural to eat meat. Our teeth prove this. I don't see how anyone can say it isn't natural.

i'm going to have to quote The Doctor's Medical Library on this one:

Man, in the meantime, came to eat meat. Why? This, indeed, is a good question. If you were an alien from another planet trying to classify the animals according to what they eat by looking at their anatomy, man would certainly be classified as a vegetarian. He has relatively benign-looking teeth, best adapted to grinding vegetable fiber. He has no claws but rather fingers and fingernails well-adapted to dissecting plants. He is not particularly fast; in fact, even slower than the bear and thus unable to run down a meal. He has a 28-foot-long intestinal tract! This long intestinal tract is designed for dealing with the more complex nature of plant digestion. All these characteristics indicate that, by nature, man's ancestors on the simian tree were vegetarians. This design apparently is rather ancient. In the meantime, man's digestive physiology has changed to that of an omnivore, also able to handle meats, preferably, from a digestive point of view, raw meats. However, man was designed to be a vegetarian and the presence of four canine teeth is not enough to say otherwise.

wait. let me make sure i've got this straight: YOU, presumed meat-eater, are telling ME that I kill too many innocents? have i got that right?you do realize i'm just eating the plants that you would so inefficiatly feed to the animals you plan to eat?thousands more plants are killed in feeding what will proportionally be a very small amount of meat than by people who just go right to the source...think about how much grain goes to feeding one cow, and how many humans that same amount of grain could feed...

point is, way fewer plants are killed by vegetarians.sorry to come off so smug but i'm tired of seeing the t-shirt that says "how many plants had to die for your stupid salad!?" ...i need to make one that says "way fewer than for your stupid cheeseburger!"

I think that he/she was trying to point out that vegans are kind of hypocritical, they go out of their way to make sure animals aren't killed unfairly but they exclude insects, fungi, plants, and other living things (not my opinion but that is what I think they were trying to say).

And you know that animals would be all over the freakin' place if we didn't kill them for food. You see, that is where hunting comes in, we make sure, for example, that the whitetail deer population is in check here in Nebraska. That way, there is less of a chance that an innocent family driving down the highway won't be killed trying to avoid a deer that was crossing the road.


Anyway back to the questions:

Why is there such a controversy over what people eat to survive? Why can't each side just back off and go on there merry way?

Why does it seem like there are more vegans trying to convert omnivores to vegans than the other way around?

Why does it seem like there are more vegans trying to convert omnivores to vegans than the other way around?

Well, there's Maddox's Vegetarian article. (http://maddox.xmission.com/grill.html)
And his Sponsorship one (http://maddox.xmission.com/sponsor.html).

wait. let me make sure i've got this straight: YOU, presumed meat-eater, are telling ME that I kill too many innocents? have i got that right?you do realize i'm just eating the plants that you would so inefficiatly feed to the animals you plan to eat?thousands more plants are killed in feeding what will proportionally be a very small amount of meat than by people who just go right to the source...think about how much grain goes to feeding one cow, and how many humans that same amount of grain could feed...

point is, way fewer plants are killed by vegetarians.sorry to come off so smug but i'm tired of seeing the t-shirt that says "how many plants had to die for your stupid salad!?" ...i need to make one that says "way fewer than for your stupid cheeseburger!"

Actually, you have no applicable point and wasted your post. If you had bothered to read what I was replying to and catch my point, you would have realized how foolish that reply was.

My point, since I have to point it out, is this: Not eating meat because animals are murdered is hypocrisy. First, insects, a type of animal, are murdered by the billions so you can enjoy those plants. Second, while you are not murdering animals for food, you are still murdering most of the other types of life on Earth to eat them. Third, let's not forget the farmers who murder deer and other veggie-eaters, most of them being animals, to protect their crops. Fourth, let's also not forget the thousands of animals who had to be murdered and forced of their land so it can be turned into an area for farming, just so you can enjoy that salad.

So, you have no case. You are still participating in the murder of billions of animals just so you can eat, not to mention the murder of who knows how many members of other types of life. So before you get self-righteous on me, little one, make sure you have legs you can stand on.

I at least have enough integrity and honesty to admit what I am doing is murder. And those t-shirts are trying to point out the same thing I just did: You're still murderers.

i'm going to have to quote The Doctor's Medical Library on this one:

Man, in the meantime, came to eat meat. Why? This, indeed, is a good question. If you were an alien from another planet trying to classify the animals according to what they eat by looking at their anatomy, man would certainly be classified as a vegetarian. He has relatively benign-looking teeth, best adapted to grinding vegetable fiber. He has no claws but rather fingers and fingernails well-adapted to dissecting plants. He is not particularly fast; in fact, even slower than the bear and thus unable to run down a meal. He has a 28-foot-long intestinal tract! This long intestinal tract is designed for dealing with the more complex nature of plant digestion. All these characteristics indicate that, by nature, man's ancestors on the simian tree were vegetarians. This design apparently is rather ancient. In the meantime, man's digestive physiology has changed to that of an omnivore, also able to handle meats, preferably, from a digestive point of view, raw meats. However, man was designed to be a vegetarian and the presence of four canine teeth is not enough to say otherwise.

Proof that the above doesn't matter is simple: Dietary requirement of B12, which can only be found in meat naturally and is usually harvested from animals.

i'm going to have to quote The Doctor's Medical Library on this one:

Man, in the meantime, came to eat meat. Why? This, indeed, is a good question. If you were an alien from another planet trying to classify the animals according to what they eat by looking at their anatomy, man would certainly be classified as a vegetarian. He has relatively benign-looking teeth, best adapted to grinding vegetable fiber.

The same alien would probably think that the Washington monument was a dedicated to a pagan fertility god and would be proven right when he saw that every town on the Eastern Seaboard seems to have a house in which he "slept."

http://maddox.xmission.com/bigpot6.jpg

all vegans shall click and feel hopeless (because these are my sentiments as well)

Vegans, consider yourselves sponsored!

Proof that the above doesn't matter is simple: Dietary requirement of B12, which can only be found in meat naturally and is usually harvested from animals.

Emphasis added.

Since when was yeast considered to be meat?

As a vegan, may I say that Peta are a bunch of atention whores who do very little to help anybody.

Emphasis added.

Since when was yeast considered to be meat?
By a biological definition yeasts are technically animal cells...

I go by what probably feels pain. They call me Bachus, raper of bacteria, killer of yeast and bane of fungus.

I know that fungus isn't the same thing.

"I think that he/she was trying to point out that vegans are kind of hypocritical, they go out of their way to make sure animals aren't killed unfairly but they exclude insects, fungi, plants, and other living things (not my opinion but that is what I think they were trying to say)."

Not necessarilly. it may be impossible to live without causing suffering on 1 scale but that does not mean suffering can not be reduced. Plus I doubt that plants and the like are capible of suffering while i know animals are.

And while I do think free range and organix can be better in reality their is little regulation of the terms and often free range animals have to face conditions similar to factory farms. And then they have to face the same slaughter process as well. Plus with over 10 billion animals per year killed in the US for food (USDA fgiures) I am not sure how it could be done humanely at that level.

As for B12 it is found in the soil and if one grown all their own vegetables organically you could technically get it though that is not a realiable source I agree. It is not too hard to find suppliments at all in today's society though and encourage all vegans to make sure they do have them.

By a biological definition yeasts are technically animal cells...

No they aren't, they are classified as fungi, and fall either into the plant kingdom, or a separate one of their own if you follow Whittacker's 1959 five kingdom model.

An animal is any living thing with a nervous system.

Chicken, fish and seafood are meat.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Meat eating is perfectly fine. If someone decides not to in order to save some cows and chickens fine. I'll continue to eat these wonderful things that are perfectly good to eat. What do people think these animals are for anyway?

What do people think these animals are for anyway?

Passing on their genetic data to their offspring.

What do people think these animals are for anyway?
i don't think humans have any particular purpose on this earth either and i still don't go around eating them.

The only way we're ever going to get people to stop eating animals s when we can synthesise meat (bones n' all) which is tastier and cheaper than natural meat.

And yeah, some insects might get killed growing plants. So because we can't preserve all life, we shouldn't try to save any? Some murderers get off scot free- it's not very fair that we only lock up the ones we can catch, isn't it?

Natural does not equal better. I have no intention of shitting in the street.

Passing on their genetic data to their offspring.

Well yeah, but cattle have been domesticated to be eaten thousands of years ago. That was needed for people to survive and now it really isn't any different.

i don't think humans have any particular purpose on this earth either and i still don't go around eating them.

How is becoming a cannibal the same as eating beef? Humans have a mind, and accomplish wonderful things. I love animals, but no matter what some may try to say, animals are not at the same level as a person.

Why do some vegans try to say that they don't eat meat because God doesn't want people to kill and eat his creatures, when it plainly states in the Bible (I can't remember which verse) that God put humans above animals?

Well yeah, but cattle have been domesticated to be eaten thousands of years ago. That was needed for people to survive and now it really isn't any different.

Yes, and cultures and races were enslaved so that other races and cultures could live lives of relative luxury... and now its different.

Why do vegans think it is so bad to drink milk?

Can vegans eat honey?

Emphasis added.

Since when was yeast considered to be meat?

So I'm proven wrong from time to time. Where were you four pages ago where that was accepted as factual?

Oh, biologically, I remember reading yeast is technically made up of animal cells. But that doesn't change what it is (a fungus).

And yeah, some insects might get killed growing plants. So because we can't preserve all life, we shouldn't try to save any? Some murderers get off scot free- it's not very fair that we only lock up the ones we can catch, isn't it?

You missed the point. The point it that not eating meat because it causes animals to die for food is both hypocritical and ignorant of some of the things involved in raising plants.

Yes, and cultures and races were enslaved so that other races and cultures could live lives of relative luxury... and now its different.

Slaves weren't a requirement to survival. They didn't have to have them but chose to. Meat however was neccessary for survival.

As for milk basically it is due to the fact in the dairy industry it is necessary to keep the cows pregnant for a lot of the time. While the females can become dairy calfs the males are pretty much usuless and are sold as veal. Also dairy cows are often forced to produce far more milk then they would naturally which causes many problems. In the end most are sent to slaughter after only a few years when they can live as long as 20 years simply as at that point it is not economical to keep them.

As for honey some vegans do and some don't

Why do vegans think it is so bad to drink milk?

Can vegans eat honey?

You missed the point. The point it that not eating meat because it causes animals to die for food is both hypocritical and ignorant of some of the things involved in raising plants.

It's the best thing we have right now. Hopefully it will get better.

And while I don't go round killing insects, I'd rather save a cow than a fly if it came down to it, just as I would save a chimp over a cow and a human over anything. We really need to find some way to test the relative intelligence of species.

"Save a plant
Eat a cow
I want meat
I want it now
I'm gonna eat it 'cause it's red
I'm gonna eat it 'cause it's dead
Maybe I should eat it raw
Let the blood run down my jaw
I'd eat people if it was legal
I'd eat people if it was legal!!!"
Good song :)

As for honey some vegans do and some don't
check out http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm

Why do some vegans try to say that they don't eat meat because God doesn't want people to kill and eat his creatures, when it plainly states in the Bible (I can't remember which verse) that God put humans above animals?
The Bible is very inconsistent on these matters-- after, it says in Genesis that humans were created to take care of animals quite clearly, not vice-versa. Right in the story of creation.

It's the best thing we have right now. Hopefully it will get better.

And while I don't go round killing insects, I'd rather save a cow than a fly if it came down to it, just as I would save a chimp over a cow and a human over anything. We really need to find some way to test the relative intelligence of species.


Ohhhh so the less intelligent ones get eaten! Wow I better start studying!

So I'm proven wrong from time to time. Where were you four pages ago where that was accepted as factual?

Some of us have lives away from the computer screen (as hard as that may be to believe).

Oh, biologically, I remember reading yeast is technically made up of animal cells. But that doesn't change what it is (a fungus).

...and a fungus isn't an animal: true, it doesn't fit nicely into the plant kingdom, but that doesn't mean it is an animal.

Why do vegans think it is so bad to drink milk?


Speaking as a vegan: because in order to produce milk a cow must have given birth within the recent past, thus milk cows are artificially impregnated and then separated from their young as soon as they are born. It remains part of the whole system of exploitation of animals.

Some of us have lives away from the computer screen (as hard as that may be to believe).

Which is part of why you'll notice certain long hours of absense in my posting. On here is a good way to get away from my girlfriend's incessant whining about Halloween parties. Everytime she comes to bug me, I look busy. She knows my feelings on the subject.

...and a fungus isn't an animal: true, it doesn't fit nicely into the plant kingdom, but that doesn't mean it is an animal.

Which I was not disagreeing with. I wouldn't have put that whole "doesn't change what it is" portion in if I was.

Ohhhh so the less intelligent ones get eaten! Wow I better start studying!
You and George Bush both.

OK Naomi, serious question if you're still out there. I have 4 daughters, Daughter #2 became a vegetarian about 5 years ago when she was 13. She just came home from school one day and announced she was not going to eat meat anymore. She originally rejected dairy and eggs but I persuaded her otherwise. I'm farm raised, and despite the cruelty of modern dairy farms, it is not a necessary part of getting milk. We actually raised dairy goats and even allowed the kids to nurse as long as they wanted. All you do is 'strip' the mothers of milk twice a day to keep production up and then you can keep milking them after the kids are weaned. The same thing is possible with dairy cows, it's just not done commercially because it's doesn't maximize your return, dollar wise. My arguement was that you can fight the modern dairy cruelty and still consume dairy products, they don't necessarily preclude each other. As for eggs, my arguement was that because of modern farming techniques store bought eggs are not viable embryos and therefore you're not killing anything by consuming them. My daughter doesn't seem to actually like a lot of vegetables including most beans and I was worried about her getting enough protein in her diet. Well she has maintained her eating habits since then and now I have Daughter #4 expressing a desire to follow her lead.

My question is this, what is your opinion of Lacto-Ovo-Vegetarians and if you reject eggs and dairy products, what do you suggest for parents trying to feed finicky preteens who still need balanced nutrition? Keep in mind that I'm a working stiff without time to prepare elaborate meals (or shop specialty stores) and I have 5 children so it must also be economical.

OK Naomi, serious question if you're still out there. I have 4 daughters, Daughter #2 became a vegetarian about 5 years ago when she was 13. She just came home from school one day and announced she was not going to eat meat anymore. She originally rejected dairy and eggs but I persuaded her otherwise. I'm farm raised, and despite the cruelty of modern dairy farms, it is not a necessary part of getting milk. We actually raised dairy goats and even allowed the kids to nurse as long as they wanted. All you do is 'strip' the mothers of milk twice a day to keep production up and then you can keep milking them after the kids are weaned. The same thing is possible with dairy cows, it's just not done commercially because it's doesn't maximize your return, dollar wise. My arguement was that you can fight the modern dairy cruelty and still consume dairy products, they don't necessarily preclude each other. As for eggs, my arguement was that because of modern farming techniques store bought eggs are not viable embryos and therefore you're not killing anything by consuming them. My daughter doesn't seem to actually like a lot of vegetables including most beans and I was worried about her getting enough protein in her diet. Well she has maintained her eating habits since then and now I have Daughter #4 expressing a desire to follow her lead.

My question is this, what is your opinion of Lacto-Ovo-Vegetarians and if you reject eggs and dairy products, what do you suggest for parents trying to feed finicky preteens who still need balanced nutrition? Keep in mind that I'm a working stiff without time to prepare elaborate meals (or shop specialty stores) and I have 5 children so it must also be economical.
Okay. I myself am a lacto-ovo (vegan) vegetarian, and I can safely say that what has worked for me may not work for other children. I loved the idea of home-made dairy, but I would object because, you must understand, for every female creature you buy from whoever, there is a male killed because it is unnecessary. There are companies that are very popular among vegans, such as Tofutti, which makes many alternative dairy products (including pretty good "cream cheese" and some delicious ice cream). Also, Silk soymilk is good for calcium (the vanilla is good, but I like the Regular). Veggie Slices make some satisfying cheeses and if your kid want candy check out Pangea.

Good luck!

Actually, the Silk company's milk is pretty bad in flavor. I know from personal experience (lactose intolerant).

If you want a different alternative, look for pills with calcium in them. Use those instead.

Okay. I myself am a lacto-ovo (vegan) vegetarian, and I can safely say that what has worked for me may not work for other children. I loved the idea of home-made dairy, but I would object because, you must understand, for every female creature you buy from whoever, there is a male killed because it is unnecessary. There are companies that are very popular among vegans, such as Tofutti, which makes many alternative dairy products (including pretty good "cream cheese" and some delicious ice cream). Also, Silk soymilk is good for calcium (the vanilla is good, but I like the Regular). Veggie Slices make some satisfying cheeses and if your kid want candy check out Pangea.

Good luck!Actaully in a small home farm like where I was raised, the males aren't killed because they were unnecessary, It was more like the females were spared because they provided other sources of food besides their flesh. Yes, we ate the animals we raised, that's primarily why they were there.

Actually, the Silk company's milk is pretty bad in flavor. I know from personal experience (lactose intolerant).

Soya milk in general is something of an acquired taste, but once you get a taste for it tastes very pleasent (but having said that, some brands are better than others).

I realy dont get the hole not eating meat deal. Its human nature to eat meat. If you ask me, its all about the circle of life and i say why not stick to it. Besides, twelve of are theeth are carnivorous teeth anyway.

Eggs are actually one of the worst form of factory farming. basically with 6 to 7 chickens kept in a cage the size of a file drawer stuck on top of one another. Free range is often not that much better.

Actually it is not quite hard to do. I do recommend reading a couple books on nutrition. A good one is The Vegetarian Way by Virginia Messina. Also basically spend some time looking for recipies (maybe 15 minutes per day). Their are many on the web as well as some good cookbooks availible. Though I haven't read it I hear Vegan Planet is quite good. You can get both books on amazon or other places.

Also I find this website has some good recipies

http://vegweb.com/

Good luck....


OK Naomi, serious question if you're still out there. I have 4 daughters, Daughter #2 became a vegetarian about 5 years ago when she was 13. She just came home from school one day and announced she was not going to eat meat anymore. She originally rejected dairy and eggs but I persuaded her otherwise. I'm farm raised, and despite the cruelty of modern dairy farms, it is not a necessary part of getting milk. We actually raised dairy goats and even allowed the kids to nurse as long as they wanted. All you do is 'strip' the mothers of milk twice a day to keep production up and then you can keep milking them after the kids are weaned. The same thing is possible with dairy cows, it's just not done commercially because it's doesn't maximize your return, dollar wise. My arguement was that you can fight the modern dairy cruelty and still consume dairy products, they don't necessarily preclude each other. As for eggs, my arguement was that because of modern farming techniques store bought eggs are not viable embryos and therefore you're not killing anything by consuming them. My daughter doesn't seem to actually like a lot of vegetables including most beans and I was worried about her getting enough protein in her diet. Well she has maintained her eating habits since then and now I have Daughter #4 expressing a desire to follow her lead.

My question is this, what is your opinion of Lacto-Ovo-Vegetarians and if you reject eggs and dairy products, what do you suggest for parents trying to feed finicky preteens who still need balanced nutrition? Keep in mind that I'm a working stiff without time to prepare elaborate meals (or shop specialty stores) and I have 5 children so it must also be economical.

I realy dont get the hole not eating meat deal. Its human nature to eat meat. If you ask me, its all about the circle of life and i say why not stick to it. Besides, twelve of are theeth are carnivorous teeth anyway.

Actually, only 4 are: the canines. The rest are either herbivorous or, in the case of the front teeth, potentially omnivorous with herbivore leanings. The exceptions that pop up include those of us whose back teeth are more ridged and with sharper-than-normal ridges, but that's nothing more than within acceptable range of teeth variations in humanity. It might suggest a continued evolution towards carnivorous tendencies in the future, though, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

jesus ate meat
so did moses
and so does john kerry, though he also eats babies

I realy dont get the hole not eating meat deal. Its human nature to eat meat.

It is also human nature to have freedom of choice (or, at least, the illusion of such), thus we are free to decide whether to eat meat or not.

My question is this, what is your opinion of Lacto-Ovo-Vegetarians and if you reject eggs and dairy products, what do you suggest for parents trying to feed finicky preteens who still need balanced nutrition? Keep in mind that I'm a working stiff without time to prepare elaborate meals (or shop specialty stores) and I have 5 children so it must also be economical.

Well I think you should tell her to stop being stupid and start eating the food she'll have to start eating when she moves out and has to decide between eating real food or starving because she can't afford those $6 cereals or that $10 slice of psuedo-meat.

Not everyone can afford to live 'naturally'.

Yuppies.