NationStates Jolt Archive

Assuming that God is omniscient (knowing everything), this would mean he has foreknowledge of his own decisions. If he knows, without fail, every decision he will ever make, does he truely have free will, since he can't change hi mind? Or if he can change his mind (or change hsi mind about changing hsi mind) without knowing he's going to do so, doesn't that mean he's not omniscient?

It seems to me that an omniscient god cannot have free will. What do the forumites think?

This assumes he thinks and therefore is. :rolleyes:

If he changes his mind or not... would we know?

This requires the belief that there even is a god. This is wrong. All discussion ceases there.

This requires the belief that there even is a god. This is wrong. All discussion ceases there.Though a modicum of amusement is to be had watching them discuss how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

ah,its nice to see how atheists react insecurely to a simple hypothesis and theists react so insecurely as well to an opposing hypothesis.its much better being an agnostic on such matters.

but anyway,it is a paradox,and my brain is friend thinking about it.mmmm,fried brains.....

Assuming that God is omniscient (knowing everything), this would mean he has foreknowledge of his own decisions. If he knows, without fail, every decision he will ever make, does he truely have free will, since he can't change hi mind? Or if he can change his mind (or change hsi mind about changing hsi mind) without knowing he's going to do so, doesn't that mean he's not omniscient?

It seems to me that an omniscient god cannot have free will. What do the forumites think?

The arguement for free-will under a god-controlled universe has two possibilities:

1) God lies outside the realm of time. Therefore, even seeing the final result, the decision does not involve intervention.

2) God is not really omnipotent, but rather is powerful enough to seem so.

There is also potential for God having created the universe and not acting upon it after its creation, but it's no longer a god-controlled universe.

There's an old saying; "God knows the future because he writes it".

but anyway,it is a paradox,and my brain is friend thinking about it.mmmm,fried brains.....


it's not really a paradox, but truel a question. IS it possible for God to be both omniscient, and also to have free will? From what I can tell, he can only have one.


The arguement for free-will under a god-controlled universe has two possibilities:

Note, I am not asking how WE can have free will, I am asking if GOD has free will, while being omniscient.

When someone is writing a story, they usually know it's ending. That shows foreknowledge of a conclusion. If an omnipotent being is doing the same, I can see no difference. Both know story before it is written, they may change it if they like, and sometimes there's an alternate ending.

true, however, an omniscient being would know what changes they were going to make, if they made any at all. To make a change that was not already known to happen would make the forknowledge incomplete, and thus the being not omniscient.

Assuming that God is omniscient (knowing everything), this would mean he has foreknowledge of his own decisions. If he knows, without fail, every decision he will ever make, does he truely have free will, since he can't change hi mind? Or if he can change his mind (or change hsi mind about changing hsi mind) without knowing he's going to do so, doesn't that mean he's not omniscient?

It seems to me that an omniscient god cannot have free will. What do the forumites think?
Thats easy...
Why would he change his mind if he knows everything!

true, however, an omniscient being would know what changes they were going to make, if they made any at all. To make a change that was not already known to happen would make the forknowledge incomplete, and thus the being not omniscient.

That is to say if an omnipotent being was writing a story. Some views on God are compared to the same views of a parent; they could manipulate every aspect of their children's lives, but it is much more interesting to allow your children to grow up, make their own mistakes, and decide their own paths.

An omnipotent being would know every conclusion to each action, and see many ways to create the ending. This being may be allowing humans to write their own story, so why not just let it happen naturally and not read the ending first.

An omnipotent being would know every conclusion to each action, and see many ways to create the ending. This being may be allowing humans to write their own story, so why not just let it happen naturally and not read the ending first.

Still, if he was omniscient, he would know in that case that he was going to choose not to touch anything, and going against that knowledge (expressing free will rather then complete determinism) would be to invalidate that omniscience.

And Free will through blocking one's knowledge of the future, again, would make him not omniscient.

((sorry for the double post))

Let me remind everyone of the difference between omniPOTENCE, and omniSCIENCE. with Omnipotent, one is all powerful. with omniscience, one is all knowing. Being one does not mean one is the other. It's quite easy for an omnipotent god to have free will, my question is if anyone can show a way for an omniscient one to have free will.

It's not a paradox at all.

He could change his mind because his omniscience just means he knows everything: Every reaction to every action. All he has to do is choose the action (he can choose = free will) but he'll already know what will happen if he does choose one thing and no the other (omniscience).

kinda like you're taking your final exam and you know all of the answers... you can choose to have some errors to make your mark belivable or you can choose to get a perfect score... the choice is yours.

kinda like you're taking your final exam and you know all of the answers... you can choose to have some errors to make your mark belivable or you can choose to get a perfect score... the choice is yours.
exactly... and knowing a perfect score will be suspicious you can get the highest believable score (because you know what errors to make).

You can still choose to have a perfect score, but it is not the smart thing to do. But you could CHOOSE to.

Free will

Assuming that God is omniscient (knowing everything), this would mean he has foreknowledge of his own decisions. If he knows, without fail, every decision he will ever make, does he truely have free will, since he can't change hi mind? Or if he can change his mind (or change hsi mind about changing hsi mind) without knowing he's going to do so, doesn't that mean he's not omniscient?

It seems to me that an omniscient god cannot have free will. What do the forumites think?
God knows everything that exists. The future does not exist --it's an abstract.

Free will exists here, in the present, on the event horizon of time. God cannot "see into the future" anymore than the rest of us, because this is the universe as he created it.

To believe that God can see the future is to subscribe to Fate and the theory that all events, from the beginning of time to the end, are fixed and locked in place.

But, using the premise you've laid out, you are right. God does not have free will. But then we knew that.

God gave us free will, but God does not have that quality. Is he not all-powerful then? I'd say he's all-power --his power is creation, going on around us at every moment of the present, here on the threashold of time. That's pretty darned powerful.

I use "omnipotent being" instead of "God".

I was saying that an omnipotent being may choose to not know the future outcome.

Note again, omniscience means more then he would know every action and effect, it means he would also have foreknowledge of HIS OWN ACTIONS. To use the test example, it's not that he knows what answers are "right" or "wrong", but he already knows what marks he is going to choose to mark down. CAN he choose to go against that knowledge, and mark down different answers (not omniscient, has free will), or is he forced and bound to make those choices (omniscient, but no free will)? Or is there some way for him to have both?

And Sukafitz, I agree, it is very, very easy to show that an omnipotent being can have free will. My question to the forum is if anyone can find a way for a being to be both Omniscient, AND have Free Will, at the same time, noting again that this means having foreknowledge of one's OWN ACTIONS, not simply the consequences of effects)

Assuming that God is omniscient (knowing everything), this would mean he has foreknowledge of his own decisions. If he knows, without fail, every decision he will ever make, does he truely have free will, since he can't change hi mind? Or if he can change his mind (or change hsi mind about changing hsi mind) without knowing he's going to do so, doesn't that mean he's not omniscient?

It seems to me that an omniscient god cannot have free will. What do the forumites think?
Free Will is a bit of a joke anyway. Most poeple who go on about having it and incredibly easy to predict, while those who believe that they are the product of socialisation etc expect other people to demonstrate free will on their behalf.
However, getting back to your question - you are assuming that God is bound by time, rather than having created it. Changing His mind requires something resembling time. It also requires changing 'input' - an interesting concept for One with instant access to all of time - unless you're defining 'free' as 'fickle'.
He may do so - this is contrary to most philosophy, but when has philosophy got religion right - but it's a big assumption.
Besides, why would knowing the future preclude free will? He makes a decision today, knows that he'll change his mind tomorrow, then does so. It's no different to making a decision, changing your mind, and then remembering that you've changed your mind.