NationStates Jolt Archive

Ya know, after the event about the 10 Commandments being on display at a government building... I've been thinking. The term Separation of Church and State, How can that be Unconstitutional when no where in the Constitution does it make this mention. The closest I could find was...

Article. VI.

Clause 3: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

and

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Yet it sounds like the Government shall not favor one religion over another. so if they allowed... say the Torah and the Koran to be displayed along side the 10 commandments, would it have been ok?

... so if they allowed... say the Torah and the Koran to be displayed along side the 10 commandments, would it have been ok?

What about a nice Pagan pentagram with a severed goat's head in da middle? :D

What about a nice Pagan pentagram with a severed goat's head in da middle? :D
Don't forget the invisible pink unicorn! :D

Conservative Christian Americans never cease to amaze me.

Conservative Christian Americans never cease to amaze me.

Probably because you are easily amazed.

lol.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Yet it sounds like the Government shall not favor one religion over another. so if they allowed... say the Torah and the Koran to be displayed along side the 10 commandments, would it have been ok?

Yes, hello, read it. It says CONGRESS. Not government. The States at that time were free to establish a christian church or not. Incidently, many of the states did, in fact, have established churches at the time of ratification.


Upshot is, prior to incorporation, (Palko v. Connecticut) States were free to determine what religious symbols they could, and could not display in their state buildings.

Hence the historical tradition. Don't even get me started on the second amendment. (But I pray to go C. Thomas becomes the next supreme court justice.)

To those who asked about the pentagram... why not, any religious symbol as long as the government does not favor one over the other. Tho the goats head may start to reeeaaalllyyy stink after a while... and there's the whole "cruealty to animals" thing unless you can prove you ate the reast of the goat I guess.

DeconDave... but why are lawyers and naysayers quick to quote Separation of church and state and claim anything contrary is Unconstitutional? and when they say this, it's always in reference to the FEDERAL constitution, not State. BTW, I don't think the Churches were not established by the state, just reconized as a religous entity. I may be wrong on that count.

oh, and JRV... are you calling me a Conservative Christian? if so, I'll take that as a compliment. ;)

Uh... I mean more along the lines of Bush. He's what I call a conservative Christian American.

You're making the common mistake JuNii of reading the text and ignoring 2 centuries of interpretation and application. The constitution is a living document, most people don't understand that. That's why it endures. It is subject to interpretation and application according to current convention. That's one of the major functions of the judicial branch of our government, to establish that interpretation. Your quandry is actually one of the oldest interpretations. The constitution prohibits government interference in religion, it was established that the only sure way to do this to likewise keep religion out of government. This among other things, precludes conflicts of interest and government endorsement, percieved or actual, of a specific religion. So the answer to your question is, even though you're of the opinion (and you wouldn't be alone) the constitution isn't saying exactly that there shall be a seperation of church and state, that's the way our highest courts have interpreted it for the aforementioned reasons.

JRV: Oh, :p but then, wouldn't you be calling every President before Bush the same thing... (after all, this is in the constitution/bill of rights. the President himself cannot change that... it has to be voted upon.)

Uh... I mean more along the lines of Bush. He's what I call a conservative Christian American.He's what the rest of the world calls an arsehole.

What I don't understand about this argument is what anyone would
want to display religious icons or texts or symbols in a public building, unless it be a place of worship.
Seems utterly inconsiderate of the views and wishes and feelings of people who may not share their religious feelings.

Personally I find any religion deeply offensive and take exception at having its symbols waved about in public, and having to explain to my children that many people have strange beliefs none of which have any foundation or evidence is tedious in the extreme.

Actually Lost Planet, according to some historical documents, the original clause was meant to prevent the Government from becoming in and of itself, a religion, making people "worship" them like an organized church. (The Congressional Church of The Democratic America? :eek: ) The term Seperation of Church and State was only mentioned in writing by then President Thomas Jefferson in a letter to a Baptist Church in Danbury Conneticuit.

however, there have been other "interpretations" of the Admendment yet it's the phrase Separation of Church and State that endures.

Oh and Splottygloop (sp?) this also goes into the fact that people want to remove "In God We Trust" from all documents like Money, remove any and all Government support for programs like The Boys Scouts of America, change the Pledge of Allegence, Removing the CHRIST in CHRISTMAS (see more Xmas signs being made?) and remove any gathering even remotely spirital in nature from any public location.

Actually Lost Planet, according to some historical documents, the original clause was meant to prevent the Government from becoming in and of itself, a religion, making people "worship" them like an organized church. (The Congressional Church of The Democratic America? :eek: ) The term Seperation of Church and State was only mentioned in writing by then President Thomas Jefferson in a letter to a Baptist Church in Danbury Conneticuit.

however, there have been other "interpretations" of the Admendment yet it's the phrase Separation of Church and State that endures.

Oh and Splottygloop (sp?) this also goes into the fact that people want to remove "In God We Trust" from all documents like Money, remove any and all Government support for programs like The Boys Scouts of America, change the Pledge of Allegence, Removing the CHRIST in CHRISTMAS (see more Xmas signs being made?) and remove any gathering even remotely spirital in nature from any public location.

Er, the usage of "God" was in neither money or pledge for the most part. They were added on.

Actually Lost Planet, according to some historical documents, the original clause was meant to prevent the Government from becoming in and of itself, a religion, making people "worship" them like an organized church. (The Congressional Church of The Democratic America? :eek: ) The term Seperation of Church and State was only mentioned in writing by then President Thomas Jefferson in a letter to a Baptist Church in Danbury Conneticuit.

however, there have been other "interpretations" of the Admendment yet it's the phrase Separation of Church and State that endures.Again, with all due respect to our founding fathers, original intent is really unimportant. What has given our country the power to endure is that they created the judicial branch and gave it the power to interpret according to current convention, thus making our constitution the 'living document' I spoke of. The upheld interpretation at this time is, as I stated, that to keep government from infringing upon freedom of religion you must keep religion out of government. Jefferson's 'Seperation of Church and State' quote is a simple way of putting this policy and since it is an accurate description of current interpretation, it stuck.

yep and now they want it off again... so were the words Under God in the pledge.

Oh and I agree with the living document idea of the constitution, yet, there have been instances where Justices have "redefined" it to mean neutrality... an accomidation of all religions yet every now and then, some media type or lawyer always moves it back to the separation bit.

Which makes it all the more confusing.