NationStates Jolt Archive

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Its nice to know we can chose more than one most evil dictator. :p

Dah...I know a bit about current African politics, but not much about past. Certainly not Mandela :)
Mugabe is pretty crazy, and Qhadaffi (sp?), while I don't know much about him directly, seems to have a pretty bad reputation

Check out the "KKK endorses Bush" thread, page 2. DA has links to some very interesting things about Mandela.

bump

Nelson Mandela ??? Ummm, he wasn't a dictator..lol

Nelson Mandela ??? Ummm, he wasn't a dictator..lol

Check these out (courtesy of DA; no, I don't agree with him on the issue of race):

http://www.africancrisis.org/photos11.asp

http://www.africancrisis.org/photos5.asp

http://www.africancrisis.org/photos15.asp

http://home.mweb.co.za/sa/savimbi/photo1.htm

http://www.africancrisis.org/Ph_TenYears.asp

Check these out (courtesy of DA; no, I don't agree with him on the issue of race):

http://www.africancrisis.org/photos11.asp

http://www.africancrisis.org/photos5.asp

http://www.africancrisis.org/photos15.asp

http://home.mweb.co.za/sa/savimbi/photo1.htm

http://www.africancrisis.org/Ph_TenYears.aspYou're missing the point. He was never a dictator.

Well, besides MAndela being democratically elected and all that....


The worst of all time? How would you determine that? Straight body count? I couldn't begin to quantify the comparative level of evil of most of these assholes. I would, however, add two other noteable offenders to your list.


Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudia Arabia, who's government holds nearly 9 million foreign workers in near-slavery conditions, and keeps half the country (women) as second-class citizens.

and Omar AL-Bashir of Sudan. Al-Bashir seized power by military force. The country is in the grip of a 20-year civil war that has killed 2million and made 4million homeless. His army routinely bombs civilians and tortures and massacres non-Muslims. He has also been accused of "engineering famine" in the regions that oppose him.

Pretty sure this is one of those "Who cares, not my problem" threads.

just to let you know.

Madela did kill a lot of people in his days a terrorist and he didnt really have any opposition in the first election. However, by the time he was in power, he was little more than a loveable old man who was a real Ghandi-esque crowd pleaser, and people liked him even though he wasnt all that smart and largely made the country poorer. However, he hardly was an evil dictator, and he even abided by limited terms. Thabo Mbeki is much more like an evil dictator than our dear friendly old Madiba ever could have dreamed of being, and to make matters stranger, unlike Mandela, he is compotent and very clever. He is also very cold, cynical, and dangerous, and might not abide by limited terms.

The worst dictator is probably Mugabe, who took a couple of bad ideas and managed to make them a 1000 times worse in the practice of an unusual type of madness he unleashed on Zim'

Check these out (courtesy of DA; no, I don't agree with him on the issue of race):

http://www.africancrisis.org/photos11.asp

http://www.africancrisis.org/photos5.asp

http://www.africancrisis.org/photos15.asp

http://home.mweb.co.za/sa/savimbi/photo1.htm

http://www.africancrisis.org/Ph_TenYears.asp

I dont see anything proving that Mandela was involved. I see unsupported statements, followed by comments such as:

"Contrary to left-wing media propaganda, the much-maligned 'apartheid' system had led to the upliftment of ALL the different peoples and ethnic groupings in South Africa to levels of economic prosperity unsurpassed by any of their counterparts anywhere in Africa."

Alright then...

EDIT: And there are probably more mentions of the word "Communism" in one page on that site than in a Mcarthy era show-trial. Even I feel physically ill. The pictures are almost a relief (but not quite). Whew.

EDIT2: Haha, I like this one too.

http://www.africancrisis.org/NewsView.asp?Rec=4035&Action=V&Sort=D&Page=1&

Someone should tell him that Russia is now a developing capitalism...

Mobuto Sese Sekou, but only because he is the only one I really know anything about.

I dont see anything proving that Mandela was involved. I see unsupported statements, followed by comments such as:

"Contrary to left-wing media propaganda, the much-maligned 'apartheid' system had led to the upliftment of ALL the different peoples and ethnic groupings in South Africa to levels of economic prosperity unsurpassed by any of their counterparts anywhere in Africa."

Alright then...

EDIT: And there are probably more mentions of the word "Communism" in one page on that site than in a Mcarthy era show-trial. Even I feel physically ill. The pictures are almost a relief (but not quite). Whew.

EDIT2: Haha, I like this one too.

http://www.africancrisis.org/NewsView.asp?Rec=4035&Action=V&Sort=D&Page=1&

Someone should tell him that Russia is now a developing capitalism...

Yes, they are extreme, obviously biased, and are bad at being persuasive. That doesnt change the fact that those comments they made are indeed true. Some of our family friends began dissapearing mysteriously around 1996, and it was also around that time when people were miserable, and even some of the poorests of the Bantus said that they would take a proper home, job, and the old government handouts over something as meaningless as the vote. Remember, this isnt a western country, things work diffrently.

The only black people who benefited from the revolution were fat government pigs and a couple of rich black businessmen. The black middle class and skilled labor sections were probably the least happy with the change, including my mother's old doctor. Everyone and anyone had some reason to fear the revolution, even after they won. In 1994 my school was attacked with some kind of poison-gas bomb because of a supposedly peaceful victory march coming by, not that this was unusual or anything. We actually were locked inside, hiding under our desks, and staying away from windows.

This is not McCarthyism. The only McCarthyism that was ever done was against the old government, who, although certainly not a parragon of fair practices, were genuinely interested in caring about their people, and, much like Israel, considered themselves to be fighting against terrorists and barbarians, preferring elegant police tactics over the brute force currently being used by the USA and Israel. Consequently we ended up developing some of the best light-vechiles and personell carriers ever known. The TRC made ridiculous claims of things like research into selective bioweapons (the military often preferred capture, demoralization, and suppression over killing the terrorists,) and, although they never found proof, they let it live just long enough to make an imprint then killed it off "we didnt find WMD but it doesnt matter" style, except in a much more evil manner.

Also, Russia is not moving towards capitalism much anymore, in fact, the current government there seems to be moving away from it, becoming increasingly more authoritarian in the face of rising health and welfare problems. Hardly Marxist though, but you must remember these radicals dont have access to reliable news of the west. They are constantly told it is a horrible, unbearable place of evil and therefore need to take what clues they can get and create an image for themselves.

Some of our family friends began dissapearing mysteriously around 1996

I'm sorry to hear that. I'm not saying that the government isn't corrupt, however. Just that I haven't seen proof that Mandela was personally involved in "necklacing"...simply unsupported comments.

The only black people who benefited from the revolution were fat government pigs and a couple of rich black businessmen.
No surprise there. Thats not "communist" though. Just corrupt and unfortunately I can't see much better coming out of it.


This is not McCarthyism. The only McCarthyism that was ever done was against the old government, who, although certainly not a parragon of fair practices, were genuinely interested in caring about their people
I'm sorry, but apartheid policy contradicts that completely. It removes any legitimacy that regime had, in my eyes.

Also, Russia is not moving towards capitalism much anymore, in fact, the current government there seems to be moving away from it, becoming increasingly more authoritarian in the face of rising health and welfare problems. Hardly Marxist though, but you must remember these radicals dont have access to reliable news of the west. They are constantly told it is a horrible, unbearable place of evil and therefore need to take what clues they can get and create an image for themselves.

You can have authoritarian capitalism. Besides, this man is clearly trying to blame the unhappiness of the Russian people on its marxist past. He neglects to note that many of the problems that they are having are a result of the free market, and many people simply cannot afford to cope. I also have to disagree with a statement made in that article:

"Contrary to popular belief, economic wellbeing is not a key factor in one’s happiness. People from developing countries, Mexico and Puerto Rico, reported to enjoy their lives the most."

It is if you don't have anything to eat and are sleeping on the streets...

Or at least have the threat of that sitting ominiously above your head.

I'm sorry to hear that. I'm not saying that the government isn't corrupt, however. Just that I haven't seen proof that Mandela was personally involved in "necklacing"...simply unsupported comments.

Im not sure about Nelson but Winnie did participate in necklacing. Nelson was jailed for a series of bombings and looting IIRC, no torture though. You wont find sources of this intact outside of some old records which may have escaped government detection. Some neglected museums and libraries still exist in South Africa, including an amusing one near my home (formerly a bell tower,) which hasnt been renovated in decades, some of the British exhibits are skewn or falling off the walls. They have a camera in the bottom stairwell and a corrupt money collector, but other than that, no monitoring. This has amusingly resulted in a smell of urine emenating from somewhere in the building.

Here's an interesting site about dictators. (links are on the right)
http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/amin.htm
Not much about African dictators though.

the overwhelming evidence based on decades of reports is that Amin was about as evil as it gets (from a subjective viewpoint).... he seemed to really revel in it.

but the current Dictator of Zimbabwe seems amazingly incompetent.. a few years ago Zimbabwe feed a large portion of Africa, now, because of land reallocation, Zimbabwe has to import food to make up massive shortfalls, and might not be able to eventually

I'm doing with D aDa. I think that an argument can be made some of the others, but Da Da was evil, they were just nasty.

Anyone who knows who idi amin is would have to vote for him.
Africa is still fucked up because of him.

Wasn't Nelson Mandela a good leader? Or am I thinking of someone else...

Anyone who knows who idi amin is would have to vote for him.
Africa is still fucked up because of him.

He was a classic alright. I remember watching the Barbet Schroeder documentary. I knew it was true, but at the same time, the way Idi was behaving it was almost like something from Monty Python. It was surreal. Especially as I didn't see it until the late 80s and by then everyone knew how bad he really was.

At one point he is talking about giving "foreign aid" to the "poor countries" in western europe like the UK, and you think: What, is this guy joking? But he's dead serious. Weird.

Another time he's talking about invading Isreal, but everyone is scared to point out that Uganda has no Navy, nor anyway of getting its army there.

You come away with the impression that the man was both very ignorant and utterly insane, but somehow he managed to gain and hold power. Its pretty disturbing.

Wasn't Nelson Mandela a good leader? Or am I thinking of someone else...
I wouldn't put him in the evil dictator camp but, while Winnie was a decent leader, Nelson was much better as a figurehead than as a leader of a nation. Not that he was bad or anything, but he just wasn't good at it. Of course he was a murdering thug in his youth and was convicted for crimes he did commit, but he didn't become a significant leader until he'd spent a few decades in prison and the man who came out of prison was not the man who went in.

If the poll would be about who is/was the most evil dictator in Africa (instead of African) I would certainly vote for Leopold II

You can have authoritarian capitalism.

Like apartheid South Africa... Why the hell weren't any of the apartheid people on this list? I mean, Mandela? FFS, if HE'S there we should see Smuts, Malan etc. there too. My vote would go to al of the NP leaders, with the possible exception of de Klerk. Don't like him, but he wasn't as evil as the others.

I wouldn't put him in the evil dictator camp but, while Winnie was a decent leader, Nelson was much better as a figurehead than as a leader of a nation. Not that he was bad or anything, but he just wasn't good at it. Of course he was a murdering thug in his youth and was convicted for crimes he did commit, but he didn't become a significant leader until he'd spent a few decades in prison and the man who came out of prison was not the man who went in.

A murdering thug? WTF? Are you referring to the armed struggle- because if you are that is WAY out of line. And Mandela was a protege of many of the older leaders in the struggle, so he was hardly a nobody.

How is Mandela in this thread? He was democratically elected and continued to be so.

Check these out (courtesy of DA; no, I don't agree with him on the issue of race):

http://www.africancrisis.org/photos11.asp

http://www.africancrisis.org/photos5.asp

http://www.africancrisis.org/photos15.asp

http://home.mweb.co.za/sa/savimbi/photo1.htm

http://www.africancrisis.org/Ph_TenYears.asp
Mandela did evil things in his time but technically he was not a dictator. I voted for Idi Amin.

Thabo Mbeki is much more like an evil dictator than our dear friendly old Madiba ever could have dreamed of being, and to make matters stranger, unlike Mandela, he is compotent and very clever. He is also very cold, cynical, and dangerous, and might not abide by limited terms.
Mbeki, clever? I don't think so. The guy is the president of a country with a huge AIDS problem and he still thinks that there is no connection between HIV and AIDS.

Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudia Arabia, who's government holds nearly 9 million foreign workers in near-slavery conditions, and keeps half the country (women) as second-class citizens.

He isn't an African dictator, though.

Here's an interesting site about dictators. (links are on the right)
http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/amin.htm
Not much about African dictators though.

Lol, that website has no credibility at all. I mean, he put Ho Chi Minh on his "heros" list, for Christ's sake! :eek:

How is Mandela in this thread? He was democratically elected and continued to be so.

Democratically elected in an election marked by widescale fraud, intimidation of political opponents, etc.

I'm surprised no one else voted for Ben Bella. The man loved to tear peoples' throats out; not just Frenchmen, but plenty of Muslims, as well. (And these were the people who was allegedly 'liberating')

Democratically elected in an election marked by widescale fraud, intimidation of political opponents, etc.

possible fraud, possible intimidation. And even if his election was fixed like Bush's, he still isn't a dictator because he didn't rule autocratically, he had an elected chamber to work through - he couldn't just make things so by saying them, they had to be approved by the SA parliament.

The mandela bodycount (from his ANC activities) is peanuts compared to the rest of the people on the list.

Winnie was involved in necklacing (we are told) but Nelson was in jail at the time.

He really doesn't qualify to be on the list, and he certainly doesn't qualify for the 13% or do of the vote that he currently has. He is only being supported by people who are pissed that he is unjustifiably idolised as some sort of Ghandi figure by a lot of ignorant liberals.

And his existence and his actions in prison from the 1980s onwards were an important part of the movement to end apartheid, so like Martin Luther King who is being bashed in another thread at the moment, he has made an important contribution to civil rights even if his personal behaviour hasn't always been perfect.

What's the name of that guy in the Central African Empire? You know, the one that ate people and the French spent so much money on. He'd get my vote.

What's the name of that guy in the Central African Empire? You know, the one that ate people and the French spent so much money on. He'd get my vote.

Idi Amin?

What's the name of that guy in the Central African Empire? You know, the one that ate people and the French spent so much money on. He'd get my vote.
You're probably thinking of Idi Amin.
I don't know. He was so funny you could almost forgive his atrocities.

I'm torn between Mugabe, who has destroyed a vibrant growing economy and country which could have been an shining example of what an African country could become. He's turned it into a third-world, medieval fiefdom where the peasants starve and he lives like a lord. And it's been a systematic dismantling for years. It'll take a generation to change it back from the uneducated superstitious cesspit he's turned it into.

The other one would be the guy who ordered the Rwandan Tutsi genocide back in the 90's. 1 million hacked to death in 6 months. That's pretty disgusting.

Not only that, but Mugabe accepted Mengistu as a political exile. Mengistu lives like an emperor, and even has his own mansion, paid for by the suffering tax-payers.

I'f Amin was A Heavyweight Boxer, for 10 years I can see how he wasn't quite right in the head.

I only just learned about Amin recently.

All you need to know about Amin

Clicky (http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/dictators/idi-amin-dada/)

The former dictatorial leader of Uganda from 1971-1979, Idi Amin has been called "One of the most batshit loco leaders ever to seize control of a chaotic African nation." (Actually, we call him that, but he's been called much worse.)

I'f Amin was A Heavyweight Boxer, for 10 years I can see how he wasn't quite right in the head.

Didn't he claim himself to be King of Scotland, and even took to wearing a Kilt for a while?

What's the name of that guy in the Central African Empire? You know, the one that ate people and the French spent so much money on. He'd get my vote.

He got my vote (lumped among "Other") as well. His name was Jean-Bedel Bokassa. Here's a link:

http://www.allempires.com/empires/centralafrican/centralafrican.htm

The full name of the former Ethiopian dictator is Mengistu Haile Mariam.

Idi Amin indeed proclaimed himself "King of Scotland", as well as "Conqueror of the British Empire":

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/news/7oclocknews/features/idi_180803.shtml

A murdering thug? WTF? Are you referring to the armed struggle- because if you are that is WAY out of line. And Mandela was a protege of many of the older leaders in the struggle, so he was hardly a nobody.I don't think it entire reaonsable to call him a protege of many of the older leaders, he was involved in the stuggle and even had some minor leadership roles, but despite his growing promenince in the ANC he was not a significant leader in SA until he started his prison term. The operative concept is not leadership of a group, but leadership of a nation. (My bad, I was looking for a word or phrase which didn't imply dictatorship but did convery the sense of head-of-state, leader unfortunetly is too broad a term and encompasses those who are able to lead a single group with one aim while a leader of a nation must ballance all the groups in a nation and ballance their interests, needs and desires. I thought of using statesman, but that has connotations which Mandela fits decently these days (a good stateman but not a great one) while not being a good leader of a nation. I should have made it clearer that I was refering to him as a leader of a nation instead of as a leader in general. When it comes down to it, it is not that Mandela was bad as leader of the nation, but he just wasn't good at it, the weighing and sorting of the merits of competing sides in a political enviroment is a difficult task and requires a certain type of person to do well.)

As for being a murdring thug, it was Mandela who converted the struggle to [/i]the armed struggle[/i], his plan and his will that created The Spear of The Nation and he was its first commander. Prior to Mandela's violent wing coming into existance, the ANC had confined itself to and prided iteself on non-violence, being a dedicatedly pacifistic organization until subverted by Mandela.

He got my vote (lumped among "Other") as well. His name was Jean-Bedel Bokassa.[/url]Bokassa's up there and a good argument could be made his being eviler than Da Da, I think that's a matter of taste - is Idi less evil because he was a loon or more evil? I cannot call it anything but evil to hunt down humans for sport like Da Da did but somewhat understand killing school children because they don't like the uniforms you make them wear (now that's a dress code with some teeth), but others might judge things differently.

A)Who the hell's Jean-Bedel Bokassa?

B)Who the hell's Da Da?

:confused:

Jean-Bédel Bokassa, a dictator and francophile that ruled the Central African Republic. Like Amin, he seemed to be pretty insane...

Jean-Bédel Bokassa, a dictator and francophile that ruled the Central African Republic. Like Amin, he seemed to be pretty insane...

Thanks. What about Da Da? Who was he?

i don't know nearly enough about the african government to judge that..

WHO THE HELL PUT MANDELLA UP THERE!!! :D must be a joke

But who the heck is Da Da? :confused:

Donno, and as I don't know enough about the african dictators, I have refrained from voting.

A)Who the hell's Jean-Bedel Bokassa?

B)Who the hell's Da Da?

:confused:A) Bokassa was dictator/President-for-Life/Emperor of the Central African Republic (Empire) in the 1970's (came to power in the mid 60's, became truely despotic in the 1970s and was overthrown in the closing days of the 1970s). He was famous for making the CAR a monarchy so it would stand of from the crowd of democracies in Africa. He was a big supporter of the French and a primary supplier of Uranium for their nuclear projects. About 1979 his final outrage was the mass arrest of children and others protesting the government mandated school uniforms - it is estimated that over 100 children were killed, and unclear if Bokassa actually ate any of them (he was tried and cleared of cannibalism but . . .). Ran many purges and such, factionalized racially the CAR, and took a personal interest in torturing people arrested for opposig his regime. Well up there on the nastiness scale.

B) Da Da is one of the names of Idi Amin, and because of it's humourous nature was a common was to refer to him during his comic phase. Da Da was a lovable loon of the Kim Il-Song stripe who like combat instead of Disney cartoons (also a favorite of DaDa). He managed to take over Uganda in the early 1970s and even listing the various titles he had during his tenure during the 1970s (ended in 1979) would take pages - my favorite is "Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Sea". He gained fame for a few nifty things, like his divine revelation to kick out all the asians from Uganda and his boasting of being a canibal, or his distrusting the army so much that most of it was not allowed to have ammunition. Although many suspect Bokassa might have been a little crazy, no one thinks Idi was anything but completely bonkers.

A) Bokassa was dictator/President-for-Life/Emperor of the Central African Republic (Empire) in the 1970's (came to power in the mid 60's, became truely despotic in the 1970s and was overthrown in the closing days of the 1970s). He was famous for making the CAR a monarchy so it would stand of from the crowd of democracies in Africa. He was a big supporter of the French and a primary supplier of Uranium for their nuclear projects. About 1979 his final outrage was the mass arrest of children and others protesting the government mandated school uniforms - it is estimated that over 100 children were killed, and unclear if Bokassa actually ate any of them (he was tried and cleared of cannibalism but . . .). Ran many purges and such, factionalized racially the CAR, and took a personal interest in torturing people arrested for opposig his regime. Well up there on the nastiness scale.

B) Da Da is one of the names of Idi Amin, and because of it's humourous nature was a common was to refer to him during his comic phase. Da Da was a lovable loon of the Kim Il-Song stripe who like combat instead of Disney cartoons (also a favorite of DaDa). He managed to take over Uganda in the early 1970s and even listing the various titles he had during his tenure during the 1970s (ended in 1979) would take pages - my favorite is "Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Sea". He gained fame for a few nifty things, like his divine revelation to kick out all the asians from Uganda and his boasting of being a canibal, or his distrusting the army so much that most of it was not allowed to have ammunition. Although many suspect Bokassa might have been a little crazy, no one thinks Idi was anything but completely bonkers.

Thanks a lot! :)

www.africancrisis.org/photos16.asp

www.africancrisis.org/photos10.asp

www.africancrisis.org/photos8.asp

www.africancrisis.org/photos9.asp

www.africancrisis.org/photos11.asp

www.home.mweb.co.za/sa/savimbi/photo1.htm

Idi Amin?
No, Idi Amin was Uganda. This guy was the emperor of the Central African Empire (before it became a Republic). Oh, wait...

Jean-Bédel Bokassa...
In September 1976 he dissolved the government and replaced it with the Conseil de la Révolution Centrafricaine. On December 4, 1976, at the MESAN congress Bokassa declared the republic a monarchy, the Central African Empire. He issued an imperial constitution, converted back to Catholicism and had himself crowned Emperor Bokassa I in a lavish ceremony on December 4, 1977. Bokassa attempted to justify his actions by claiming that creating a monarchy would help Central Africa "stand out" from the rest of the continent, and earn the world's respect. Over $20 million was spent on the coronation, but despite generous invitations, no foreign leaders attended the event. Many thought Bokassa was insane, and compared his egotistical extravagance with that of Africa's other well-known eccentric dictator, Idi Amin.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Jean-B%E9del%20Bokassa

He got my vote (lumped among "Other") as well. His name was Jean-Bedel Bokassa. Here's a link:


Yeah! That's him. Sorry I saw your post after googling and posting mine.

Definetely not Mandela. I say Omar el-Bashir of Sudan. 2 million dead since 1982. :(

Idi Amin

Halie Selassie
Ian Smith
P.W. Botha
General Samuel Doe
King Hussan II

Halie Selassie
Ian Smith
P.W. Botha
General Samuel Doe
King Hussan IIOnly Smith holds a candle to DaDa and Boukassa in terms of evil. Indulgent wastrels who don't go around torturing people for fun shouldn't even be on the list, they are as out of place as Mandela on the list. Smith is a good one though, he should have a place on the list instead of Mandela. Botha is a minor contender, but in a contest Smith was eviler than Botha by a faily long shot in the same way, so if you consider thier actions the most evil type there is no need to put Botha on the list.

How much do you guys know about Smith, besides the garbage that the Human Rights Hypocrites, our pro-communist media, and Marxist-Leninist gangsters who pose as historians, spew forth? (Don't flame, please)

How much do you guys know about Smith, besides the garbage that the Human Rights Hypocrites, our pro-communist media, and Marxist-Leninist gangsters who pose as historians, spew forth? (Don't flame, please)
Quite a bit actually. I wouldn't consider Smith the most evil in Africa by a long shot, but if you think his type of racist beliefs are the greatest evil then he's a contender. He did institute a reign of terror, albeit much weaker than that of his contemporaries. People did disappear under Smith, there were death squads and secret police and all the other trappings of a terrible despot, just not in quality or quantity to equal others - and he doesn't really qualify as a dictator either. But if you consider (white) racism to be a greater evil than cannibalism or killing children, you could consider him a contender for the most evil. Value judgements, what is most evil?

Quite a bit actually. I wouldn't consider Smith the most evil in Africa by a long shot, but if you think his type of racist beliefs are the greatest evil then he's a contender. He did institute a reign of terror, albeit much weaker than that of his contemporaries. People did disappear under Smith, there were death squads and secret police and all the other trappings of a terrible despot, just not in quality or quantity to equal others - and he doesn't really qualify as a dictator either. But if you consider (white) racism to be a greater evil than cannibalism or killing children, you could consider him a contender for the most evil. Value judgements, what is most evil?

Smith wasn't racist. South Africa was, but Smith was not. Under Smith, blacks enjoyed voting rights and the same other rights as whites. The ones who did the killing of blacks were blacks themselves (Mugabe and his thugs). In fact, in his book The Great Betrayal, Smith strongly denounced racism, apartheid, etc.

As for being a murdring thug, it was Mandela who converted the struggle to [/i]the armed struggle[/i], his plan and his will that created The Spear of The Nation and he was its first commander. Prior to Mandela's violent wing coming into existance, the ANC had confined itself to and prided iteself on non-violence, being a dedicatedly pacifistic organization until subverted by Mandela.

Well I happen to think the armed struggle was NOT a huge mistake.
I mean, passive resistance was met with violence, over and over again. Do you have ANY idea of the scale of the violence against non-white people in South Africa? It's not something you can just sit back and take. It's called SELF DEFENCE.

And non-violent means were tried and tried, and proved to have no effect. Thus, sabotage was the next option. The plan was to start with low level acts of sabotage, and move in stages if the means they were employing proved ineffective.

What the hell do you expect people to do when they're being oppressed by military and police brutality??? Of course they will unify and fight back.

Well I happen to think the armed struggle was NOT a huge mistake.
I mean, passive resistance was met with violence, over and over again. Do you have ANY idea of the scale of the violence against non-white people in South Africa? It's not something you can just sit back and take. It's called SELF DEFENCE.

And non-violent means were tried and tried, and proved to have no effect. Thus, sabotage was the next option. The plan was to start with low level acts of sabotage, and move in stages if the means they were employing proved ineffective.

What the hell do you expect people to do when they're being oppressed by military and police brutality??? Of course they will unify and fight back.

Maybe, but the ANC's murder of peaceful, anti-communist blacks was uncalled for.

Smith wasn't racist. South Africa was, but Smith was not. Under Smith, blacks enjoyed voting rights and the same other rights as whites. The ones who did the killing of blacks were blacks themselves (Mugabe and his thugs). In fact, in his book The Great Betrayal, Smith strongly denounced racism, apartheid, etc.Historically inaccurate. Under Smith Rhodesia eventually gave in to international and guerilla pressure and gradually allowed blacks more power in what was to become Zimbabwe, but full equality of rights did not come about until after the power transfer agreement to Mugumbe expired (?The Lancaster House agreement?). Smith created the Rhodesian Front and declared independance for the express purpose of preventing a gradual granting of equality to blacks as demanded by the British, and only intense pressure forced him to modify his position and arrange a power-sharing agreement with roughly half the power in the hands of the white minority (which didn't work) in 1979. It is to Smith's credit (depending on how you judge these things, a white supremacist might think otherwise) that he later repudated his earlier racism and seperatism, but it does not mean that he never was a racist - the cornerstone of his government was White supremacy. While ZANU and ZAPU and that lot did a lot of killing, Smith was not blameless either, despite what Smith might want you to think, else why did Smith declare an amnesty of all members of the Rhodesian Front which had commited murder, rape and torture in the Independance War? It was esimated that some 10% of the population which survived the Independance War had been tortured during it, a pretty nasty statistic. I don't think reading Smith gives an accurate picture what Smith's regime was like, I doubt he is completely honest about the terrible things he did.

How many of these polls are you going to start?!!!