NationStates Jolt Archive

I've heard quoted a passage in the Bible (sorry I don't have the reference, my thanks to anyone who finds it) that basically says that the earthly government is a reflection of God's will, and that by obeying the government you obey God.

How do you reconcile this belief with democracy? Is the majority of the nation incapable of electing an official that will set policy contrary to God's will?

Heck, how do you reconcile it with tyranny? Hussein was the embodiment of government, thus according to that passage he must have expressed God's will, right?

Do you concede that that passage of the Bible is wrong, have a different interpretation of it, or do you believe that all governments ever have acted in accordance with God's will (even when they contradicted themselves)?

Simple, I don't believe in either the Bible or government. They are both too authoritarian for my tastes.

Simple, I don't believe in either the Bible or government. They are both too authoritarian for my tastes.
Letila, thats a little harsh. At least governments are real, not fictional.

I've heard quoted a passage in the Bible (sorry I don't have the reference, my thanks to anyone who finds it) that basically says that the earthly government is a reflection of God's will, and that by obeying the government you obey God.

How do you reconcile this belief with democracy? Is the majority of the nation incapable of electing an official that will set policy contrary to God's will?

Heck, how do you reconcile it with tyranny? Hussein was the embodiment of government, thus according to that passage he must have expressed God's will, right?

Do you concede that that passage of the Bible is wrong, have a different interpretation of it, or do you believe that all governments ever have acted in accordance with God's will (even when they contradicted themselves)?

St Augustine established the principle of the Divine Right of Kings, by contemplating a world where the Physical Kingdom acts as a 'shield' (as it were) for the Spiritual Kingdom... based on his interpretation of scripture.

Personally, I can think of three passages that reinforce, to some extent, the point you were making:

Titus 3:1 "Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work..."

Hebrews 13:17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

and Matthew 22:21 "They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."

If the government is God's will and the people are the government then self rule is God's will. Simple.

There's always the story of Daniel and the lion's den, too. Basically, the king made Daniel his top advisor, and his others didn't like it very much. They convinced the king to pass a law saying that all prayers were to be made to him, knowing Daniel would still pray to God. So Daniel prays, gets thrown in lion's den, comes out ok, king repeals law, other advisors disappear. The moral as I see it is if the laws of earth conflict with the laws of Heaven, obey the laws of Heaven. Sorry, but I can't be bothered to look up the passage right now. Time for bed.

Thomas Paine makes a great argument against Kings, using the Bible, which you can read anywhere online (http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/D/1776-1800/paine/CM/sense03.htm) and I won't recite. But that's for if you do believe in the bible, and then you somehow have to reconcile his arguments and the passages he cites with passages that support the right of kings... good luck. :p

I've heard quoted a passage in the Bible (sorry I don't have the reference, my thanks to anyone who finds it) that basically says that the earthly government is a reflection of God's will, and that by obeying the government you obey God.
How do you reconcile this belief with democracy? Is the majority of the nation incapable of electing an official that will set policy contrary to God's will?
Heck, how do you reconcile it with tyranny? Hussein was the embodiment of government, thus according to that passage he must have expressed God's will, right?
Do you concede that that passage of the Bible is wrong, have a different interpretation of it, or do you believe that all governments ever have acted in accordance with God's will (even when they contradicted themselves)?

If you look at anyone of us, you will see one very important issue at hand under any government. That is willingness to make up your own mind. We all can make mistakes and cause accidents with bad decisions but the real issue is will or have we learned from those mistakes and accidents? It seems some of us have and some of us have not. That is where we get the real meaning of have and have nots. Its much more important than what material someone has and what another has not. Because being willing to learn from this knowledge is much greater than the fake material in this world.

You know, the Bible (and the primary religious texts of the other main religions) is essentially a long discussion of human and political morality (with added weird bits about the dangers of eating molluscs on a Tuesday, or whatever, possibly owing to mistranslation). Since when have those subjects been consistent? Does anyone apply their individual morality consistently? Does any government, or any other bureaucratic body, for that matter? (For morality, policy may be substituted).

Basically, a lot of stuff like that cannot be reconciled with opinions held today, because those words were simply someone's opinions held then. Some people may agree, others disagree, but it is all subjective.

2 Chronicles 36
23 "This is what Cyrus king of Persia says:
" 'The LORD , the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. Anyone of his people among you-may the LORD his God be with him, and let him go up.' "

Matthew 16
18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[1] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[2] will not overcome it.[3]
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[4] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[5] loosed in heaven."
20 Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.