NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3959635.stm

I don't think this will get very far, or indeed, achieve very much by way of legal and civil rights for the other prisoners but I have to admire these lads for their enterprise (whether their allegations are true or not).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3959635.stm

I don't think this will get very far, or indeed, achieve very much by way of legal and civil rights for the other prisoners but I have to admire these lads for their enterprise (whether their allegations are true or not).
They are not the only ones. Also a swedish exprisoner is going to sue US government, and Sweden will give him the money for it.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/07/17/1089694594697.html?from=storylhs&oneclick=true

Let's put aside the allegations of mistreatment for the moment.

Surely, the mere fact that someone has been held in a prison for years, without charge, without any legal rights, and then released, still without charge, in and of itself would entitle such a person to be in a valid position to seek damages.

Or is the US now the nation of gulags?

abu ghraib prisoners should sue the us government, but the army won't let them

The U.S. of A. is obviously teh supa great empire of Satanas and excempt from all laws. They are above it - the country with a writ of excemption from the most holy lord himself. Clearly you see the benefits of the U.S. of A. violating human rights left and right while holding other countries accountable to certain standards such as the geneva conventions or the UN charter. Pulease, the U.S. of A. has for years been criticized for Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib and it did not hinder them from continuing this illegal and apalling tradition in almost nazi-like fashion. This is another thing why the U.S. of A. is so hated throughout the world - it excempts itself from international law and human rights conventions simply because it has the military power and considers itself the superpower with the right to do whatever it wants on the globe - which SUCKS!

Why would the U.S: of A. be subject to international law and why would U.S. citizens have to answer in front of the ICC/ICJ for war crimes they commit. The U.S. of A. could not oppress the world and keep it's military stranglehold over countries, if it had to fear people would be prosecuted for committing crimes in the world. Oh my, how could the world dare to request the U.S. of A. to respect the same standards all other nations (at least the western ones) respect. Arrogant people (at least a lot), arrogant presidents, a black spot on this planet which treats it's own constitution like dirt and other people like animals. *spit*

The U.S. of A. is obviously teh supa great empire of Satanas and excempt from all laws.................
From US Deaprtment of State about Germany:
"The Government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; although there were problems in some areas, the law and judiciary provided effective means of addressing individual instances of abuse. There were at least two reports of alleged police mistreatment or use of excessive force against detainees, which the Government investigated. There were some limits on freedom of assembly and association. There was some government and societal discrimination against minority religious groups. Instances of societal violence and harassment directed at minority groups and foreign residents continued, and the Government at times did not provide adequate protection. Women continued to face some wage discrimination in the private sector, as did minorities and foreigners. Trafficking in persons, particularly women and girls, was a problem, which the state and federal governments took steps to address."
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27839.htm

Human rights violations in Germany
http://home.online.no/~wkeim/files/de_human_rights.htm

*stands by Gigatron, recites same speech, and spits*

From US Deaprtment of State about Germany:
"The Government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; although there were problems in some areas, the law and judiciary provided effective means of addressing individual instances of abuse. There were at least two reports of alleged police mistreatment or use of excessive force against detainees, which the Government investigated. There were some limits on freedom of assembly and association. There was some government and societal discrimination against minority religious groups. Instances of societal violence and harassment directed at minority groups and foreign residents continued, and the Government at times did not provide adequate protection. Women continued to face some wage discrimination in the private sector, as did minorities and foreigners. Trafficking in persons, particularly women and girls, was a problem, which the state and federal governments took steps to address."
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27839.htm

Human rights violations in Germany
http://home.online.no/~wkeim/files/de_human_rights.htm

I checked that page and sorry, but most of these links are forged or quote things taken out of context and in a misleading chronological order. E.g. a court decision from 1972 is quoted (misquoted btw because it has no relevance for the topic where it is used) as a result of a court decision from 2004 that european court decisions are not strictly binding for German courts - but must be taken into consideration (so they are not completely disregarded).

And the map at the bottom with "access to information" lists the U.S. as granting complete access, which I can only consider a joke because it is totally untrue. While Germany may not be perfect and I condemn any and all human rights violations happening in my country, the obvious lawlessness Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib suffer(ed) under are apalling and an affront against basic human rights (torture, deportation, incarceration without trial).

And the map at the bottom with "access to information" lists the U.S. as granting complete access, which I can only consider a joke because it is totally untrue. While Germany may not be perfect and I condemn any and all human rights violations happening in my country, the obvious lawlessness Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib suffer(ed) under are apalling and an affront against basic human rights (torture, deportation, incarceration without trial).
Nice to read a neutral post from you. The first one was more like a joke. You know, who are the Americans to tell you about human rights...
The second I added a bit later. Only to point out that your country isn't perfect either (neither is Finland).
Of course it's nothing compared to the human rights violations USA does everyday.

They are not the only ones. Also a swedish exprisoner is going to sue US government, and Sweden will give him the money for it.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/07/17/1089694594697.html?from=storylhs&oneclick=true

I'd have to register to see that apparently. Care to copy and paste?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3959635.stm

I don't think this will get very far, or indeed, achieve very much by way of legal and civil rights for the other prisoners but I have to admire these lads for their enterprise (whether their allegations are true or not).

Well it might not get far (or be widely reported on in the states while it's happening), believe me - this is just the sort of thing the whole world is watching. You'll all forget about it by lunchtime, your media will consign the story to the 'news of the weird', and your leaders won't mention it at all after the election next week, regardless of who's in charge.

But, rest assured, this is one issue that will persist in the international arena. How you choose to ignore it, refute it, or obfuscate it will weigh heavily in the thoughts of truly democratic people all around the world.

Well it might not get far (or be widely reported on in the states while it's happening), believe me - this is just the sort of thing the whole world is watching. You'll all forget about it by lunchtime, your media will consign the story to the 'news of the weird', and your leaders won't mention it at all after the election next week, regardless of who's in charge.

But, rest assured, this is one issue that will persist in the international arena. How you choose to ignore it, refute it, or obfuscate it will weigh heavily in the thoughts of truly democratic people all around the world.

What are you on? My media = BBC. One of these lads is from my town.

In the end no government, how ever lofty its ideals will ever be perfect. However in matters such as this the only thing one can really do is search one’s own conscience and ask, ‘is this right?’ The only answer I can really come to with regard to this debate, is no.

No amount of argument about which governments did what when or where and to whom, will detract from the fact that if something is fundamentally wrong as a matter of conscience, it will always be wrong regardless of any spin placed on it.

What are you on? My media = BBC. One of these lads is from my town.

I could ask the same of you. Most people in the States don't have BBC as their primary media outlet. You think for a minute that this item is going anywhere but the back pages of most American newspapers? Hell, if anybody's even read or heard about this in the States, they'll have forgotten all about it on the drive home tonight, somewhere between stocking up on gas and Hallowe'en candy.

I could ask the same of you. Most people in the States don't have BBC as their primary media outlet. You think for a minute that this item is going anywhere but the back pages of most American newspapers? Hell, if anybody's even read or heard about this in the States, they'll have forgotten all about it on the drive home tonight, somewhere between stocking up on gas and Hallowe'en candy.

Well, by the time any real progress has been made (if any - my confidence in the legal systems of both the US and the UK is not strong) it will be more or less forgotten in terms of media coverage by most outlets. I know that the BBC has a whole section dedicated to Guantamamo, though. This isn't because people don't care, but that there are many issues currently which may be perceived as having greater importance. For example, the US elections.

Unfortunately, something survived the firebombing of Dresden.

Unfortunately, something survived the firebombing of Dresden.

Yer mum? :D










































Sorry, couldn't resist.

I'd have to register to see that apparently. Care to copy and paste?
"A Swede released from the US naval base at Guantanamo Bay last week said today he wanted to sue the US Government for being held captive without charges for two and a half years.

Mehdi Ghezali, 25, said he was subjected to interrogations almost every day and tortured by exposure to freezing cold, noise and bright lights, deprived of sleep and chained in painful positions. Washington dismissed the complaints of mistreatment.

Asked if he would sue the United States Government, Ghezali told Reuters Television: "Yes, I will."

Ghezali's lawyer Peter Althin said his client had not yet decided on the amount of damages he would seek. The preparation of the case would take some time, he said.

"He has been held without any grounds and that is why we will seek damages," Althin told Reuters.

"We have to decide if we will do it alone, or together with other prisoners who had been released. It would be a better case for us if we could be joined by citizens from other countries who also had been held in Guantanamo."

Althin said they would bring the case in the United States, taking advantage of a US Supreme Court ruling that men held in Guantanamo, whom the US Government suspects of terrorism, could challenge their detention in US courts.

Most of them have been held for more than two years without charges or access to lawyers. The Pentagon said Ghezli was the 135th prisoner to be released from the base. Some 594 others remain incarcerated.

The son of an Algerian-born immigrant, Ghezali was released from the Cuban base on July 8 after pressure from Sweden including a meeting in Washington between the Prime Minister, Goran Persson, and President George W. Bush.

Reuters"

other links
http://www.lawdiscussion.com/archive/t-27149_Guantanamo_Swede_Wants_to_Sue_U.S._Govt.html
http://www.thelocal.se/article.php?ID=273&date=20040723

Thank you.

Thank you.
Can't find any English articles about the financial support Sweden has promised to give him. Only in Swedish and Finnish.

Can't find any English articles about the financial support Sweden has promised to give him. Only in Swedish and Finnish.

Good old Swedish, doing their part in the fight against American Imperialism.

... Arrogant people (at least a lot), arrogant presidents,
That reminds me - I had BBC on the other day and they were doing some sort of weekly news round-up. They had on-the-street-interviews of Americans, asking them what did they think the rest of the World thought of America.
Everyone they showed - ranging from a youngish black guy in San Francisco up to an old white gentrified type (from Boston or some other old-wealth place) all said the same thing:
The Rest of the World are jealous of us.
They're jealous of our livestyles and how easy it is over here.
That's why Europe were against us during the war.
That's why the Arabs hate us.
etc etc etc.
How's that for arrogance?
And if the range of ppl is anything to go by, it's a pretty ingrained opine in the US psyche.



As for this bit in about Germany rights violations:
Women continued to face some wage discrimination in the private sector, as did minorities and foreigners
Oh shock horror! Women and foreigners in Germany are getting paid less than the men! Surely a sign of an amoral uncaring Govt hell-bent on destroying civil liberties and basic human rights!
Like that doesn't happen everywhere :rolleyes:

Oh shock horror! Women and foreigners in Germany are getting paid less than the men! Surely a sign of an amoral uncaring Govt hell-bent on destroying civil liberties and basic human rights!
Like that doesn't happen everywhere :rolleyes:
And it's alright then?
Anyway I posted it only to show that noone is perfect. As you seem to know already.

[QUOTE=Demented Hamsters]That reminds me - I had BBC on the other day and they were doing some sort of weekly news round-up. They had on-the-street-interviews of Americans, asking them what did they think the rest of the World thought of America.
Everyone they showed - ranging from a youngish black guy in San Francisco up to an old white gentrified type (from Boston or some other old-wealth place) all said the same thing:
The Rest of the World are jealous of us.
They're jealous of our livestyles and how easy it is over here.
That's why Europe were against us during the war.
That's why the Arabs hate us.
etc etc etc.
How's that for arrogance?
And if the range of ppl is anything to go by, it's a pretty ingrained opine in the US psyche.

I've also found this odd. When I speak to the US citizens I know, not a single one so far seems to believe that world opinion of the USA has anything to do with their own foreign policy. An obvious example is the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks. According to the US citizens I spoke to, the terrorists hate the USA because it is a Christian democracy. End of discussion. No-one thinks that the terrorists feel that the US have oppressed the Muslim Arab populations. While I do not believe that every US citizen subscribes to this point of view, it does seem widespread within the general population.

I've also found this odd. When I speak to the US citizens I know, not a single one so far seems to believe that world opinion of the USA has anything to do with their own foreign policy. An obvious example is the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks. According to the US citizens I spoke to, the terrorists hate the USA because it is a Christian democracy. End of discussion. No-one thinks that the terrorists feel that the US have oppressed the Muslim Arab populations. While I do not believe that every US citizen subscribes to this point of view, it does seem widespread within the general population.
Does make you wonder about their news media outlets and what sort of 'non-partisan' world-view they are expousing.

Does make you wonder about their news media outlets and what sort of 'non-partisan' world-view they are expousing.

Why, one in which the US can do no wrong, of course. One in which all the world is unfairly against them. One in which all of us are somehow less-than-human, abstracted, and occasionally slightly more than a nuisance. But don't worry, the commercials for Nikes and SUVs keep them from thinking too hard and long about it.

They've got the biggest propaganda machine in the world. Starting with the way kids are being indoctrinated with the (arrogant) view that the U.S. is the greatest country on the world and everything else on the planet is third world and how everyone is just jealous of their (corrupt) political system and their (cheating and lieing) christian "dicta.. err.. democracy". Corporate oppression has long since replaced the old "american dream" and slavery is re-emerging. And they think the world is jealous of THAT. What a joke.

A nation under god.. haha.. a nation under dumbass, obese, ignorant, arrogant people. That's what the U.S. is.

They've got the biggest propaganda machine in the world. Starting with the way kids are being indoctrinated with the (arrogant) view that the U.S. is the greatest country on the world and everything else on the planet is third world and how everyone is just jealous of their (corrupt) political system and their (cheating and lieing) christian "dicta.. err.. democracy". Corporate oppression has long since replaced the old "american dream" and slavery is re-emerging. And they think the world is jealous of THAT. What a joke.

A nation under god.. haha.. a nation under dumbass, obese, ignorant, arrogant people. That's what the U.S. is.

Let us not tar all with one feather.

America has become way to jingoistic. The media controls the people like some sadistic shepard, and both major parties only contribute to the rot that's growing inside.

If things don't change, then our children, or our grandchildren might see beginning of America's collapse as a "free nation."

America has become way to jingoistic. The media controls the people like some sadistic shepard, and both major parties only contribute to the rot that's growing inside.

If things don't change, then our children, or our grandchildren might see beginning of America's collapse as a "free nation."

If you tolerate this your children will be next? ;)

America has become way to jingoistic. The media controls the people like some sadistic shepard, and both major parties only contribute to the rot that's growing inside.

If things don't change, then our children, or our grandchildren might see beginning of America's collapse as a "free nation."

Hate to break the news, but America's collapse as a "free nation" is happening, and has been happening, all around you, for the last three years. Your kids and grandkids won't have the slightest clue as to what you're on about, granddad. Might as well make for the park to rant at the pigeons about Stalin.

Wires = crossed.