NationStates Jolt Archive

One thing that has always bugged me about Christianity is that a mass-murdering rapist who believes in Jesus can be forgiven and go to heaven, but a pleasant bloke who helps people out and leads a good life without believing in god goes to hell.

Maybe there should be levels of hell?

From "Slightly too warm spa pool" to the traditional "Fire pits and eternal torture"

Seems a bit more just :D

Thoughts/Comments/"Your going to hell" statements?

Craig

EDIT: Take the test here for the poll: http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv

[Moderator Edit - Cogitation] Cocytus is Level 9. ;) [/modedit]

Someone (I can't remember who, maybe it was Dante, maybe it was a quiz on the net, both seem possible for some reason), said that there were like 9 levels, the first being Purgatory which is basically a world full of non-Christians, who weren't necessarily evil. Plato, Socrates, Tim Leary etc would be in there. The lowest level was frozen over and was reserved for (I think) people who betrayed others' trust in them. The middle levels are a blur.

Edit - This would be why both Dante and an internet quiz seemed to be possibilities :P http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv

Catholics believe in purgatory which is a temporary housing of good non-believers and bad christians. Also, by the Christian ideology, non-christians will be judged when the world ends. So, it is still possible to get in heaven if your are a non-believer.

Someone (I can't remember who, maybe it was Dante, maybe it was a quiz on the net, both seem possible for some reason), said that there were like 9 levels, the first being Purgatory which is basically a world full of non-Christians, who weren't necessarily evil. Plato, Socrates, Tim Leary etc would be in there. The lowest level was frozen over and was reserved for (I think) people who betrayed others' trust in them. The middle levels are a blur.


Yeah, that was in Dante's Inferno.

Well to be honest (and as a non Christian) I reckon we're all going to hell. But why should that be a bad thing? I mean, Hell has all the good musicians so the parties will be good (its not all murderers and evil people) and personally, I hate being cold.

Seriously though, the values behind Christianity were defined over 2000 years ago so as time goes on they begin to apply less. Thats the problem with religion, it never progresses.

The ninth level of hell is reserved for Judas and other betrayers. If I remember correctly the plates (engravings/drawings) in Dante's Inferno depicted Judas being consumed by Satan, specifically in the middle mouth of three heads. Pretty grim, eh?

Someone (I can't remember who, maybe it was Dante, maybe it was a quiz on the net, both seem possible for some reason), said that there were like 9 levels, the first being Purgatory which is basically a world full of non-Christians, who weren't necessarily evil. Plato, Socrates, Tim Leary etc would be in there. The lowest level was frozen over and was reserved for (I think) people who betrayed others' trust in them. The middle levels are a blur.

Edit - This would be why both Dante and an internet quiz seemed to be possibilities :P http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv
Cheers, just found that link too!

I'm going to: Sixth Level of Hell - The City of Dis
You approach Satan's wretched city where you behold a wide plain surrounded by iron walls. Before you are fields full of distress and torment terrible. Burning tombs are littered about the landscape. Inside these flaming sepulchers suffer the heretics, failing to believe in God and the afterlife, who make themselves audible by doleful sighs. You will join the wicked that lie here, and will be offered no respite. The three infernal Furies stained with blood, with limbs of women and hair of serpents, dwell in this circle of Hell.

Rather worse than I predicted, but hey!

Take the test at the link above, I'll have a poll up soon!

Craig

The ninth level of hell is reserved for Judas and other betrayers. If I remember correctly the plates (engravings/drawings) in Dante's Inferno depicted Judas being consumed by Satan, specifically in the middle mouth of three heads. Pretty grim, eh?

If I remember correctly, Brutus and Cassius of Julius Caesar fame, were also in the ninth circle.

As for personal beliefs... An acid trip showed me that there is no life after death and that we're merely energy condensed into matter on the same vibration, that consciousness is an illusion and that it's illogical to consider that we'd have any sense of being after death.

I'm not about to stop anyone believing in anything though.

One thing that has always bugged me about Christianity is that a mass-murdering rapist who believes in Jesus can be forgiven and go to heaven, but a pleasant bloke who helps people out and leads a good life without believing in god goes to hell.


That's not the way it works. 90% of Christians don't know what they're talking about. Atheists and prositutes get into heaven and killers remain killers. Deathbed repentence is overhyped.


As far as Catholicism is concerned, there are multiple levels of heaven, hell, and purgatory (temporary hell). Apparently heaven and hell are like mountains, where the farther up or down you get, the closer to God/Satan you get to. Heaven, for example, is anything but boring. It's the next step in human existance, but you have to be ready for it. Hence the need for purgatory. I read somewhere that martyrs, saints, and people who accend into heaven (like Mother Mary) go to the "highest" part of heaven immediately. I could be misinformed about this next part, but no one knows what happens after that point is reached. It may be the "afterlife" of the afterlife, or it could be the total merging with Unity. Who knows? But still, it's something to think about...

According to Dante there are levels already. Nine to be precise and quite well-defined:

http://www.arches.uga.edu/~redman/hellhigh.html

Not that I believe in this kind of science fiction literature avant-la-lettre, but those who do can even take the test that will tell them which circle (simplified) their demise is going to land them in:

http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv

Cheers, just found that link too!
I'm going to: Sixth Level of Hell - The City of Dis
Rather worse than I predicted, but hey!

God Dammit! (whoops taking the Lord's name in vain, another black mark!) I got the same score as you! What is it with us Kiwis?
At least I'll have someone to talk to when I get there ("So how the All Blacks doing?" "Well, we haven't frozen over yet, so I guess they haven't won the World cup again")

According to Dante there are levels already. Nine to be precise and quite well-defined:

http://www.arches.uga.edu/~redman/hellhigh.html

Not that I believe in this kind of science fiction literature avant-la-lettre, but those who do can even take the test that will tell them which circle (simplified) their demise is going to land them in:

http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv
Do you even read previous posts in threads? This link has been posted twice already! And we're still on the first page.
That should be another sin you can get purgatory for.

God Dammit! (whoops taking the Lord's nae in vain, another black mark!) I got the same dcore as you! What is it with us Kiwis?
At least I'll have someone to talk to when I get there ("So how the All Blacks doing?" "Well, we haven't frozen over yet, so I guess they haven't won the World cup again")

:D Pop your result in the poll, I'm interested to see where trends (if any) fall.

Man, thought I might get away with my athiesm. One more plan for my afterlife down the tubes.

Well, it looks like I'll be seeing you two in the City of Dis. I wonder why there are so many heretics here?

Well, it looks like I'll be seeing you two in the City of Dis. I wonder why there are so many heretics here?

Hmm, are all the Heretics athiest?

I answered "No" or "False" to all questions about God's power, praying, reading scriptures and afterlife. Might do it.

Craig

P.S I'll shout you a Beer when we meet on Level 6. Somewhere among the burning tombs and fields full of distress there's gotta be a bar. I'll just ask one of those women with snakes for hair. :D

Also, by the Christian ideology, non-christians will be judged when the world ends. So, it is still possible to get in heaven if your are a non-believer.

This is not quite true. There are quite a number of Christian belief systems that offer no place in heaven for non-believers - most Protestant (and therefore just about all Evangelical) ones. Whether such people go to "hell" or just die never to be resurrected later on (e.g. for the definitions of "hell" that simply mean "absence of god") is a lengthy boring story but there is certainly nothing I can think of in the gospels themselves that implies an eternal life for non-believers. This is more a matter of individual church/denomination doctrine than a general "Christian ideology" - in fact, what exactly is necessary for salvation is one of the key issues of the Reformation, with (oversimplifying a great deal) views at the time ranging from adequate faith (Luther's interpretation of Paul) to predetermination (Calvin) to "Acknowledge papal authority, say 5 Hail Mary's and/or buy a big pile of indulgences" (Catholics).

Luther's argument is fairly compelling to the point that if you go by the sources (i.e. the new testament) there is little chance of getting in heaven. So as a non-believer, I'm resigned to going straight to hell or at least, not getting the resurrecting tap on the shoulder come Judgement Day.

The way I understand it, is basically as the bible says.
From acts 2

37 Now when they heard [this,] they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?
38 And Peter [said] unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Basically, "How do we escape judgement?" (from the previous few verses), to which peter responds by saying "repent, be baptized, and recieve the Holy Spirit"

Later on, in revelations 20

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Which basically says that the dead, all of the dead, stand before God and they are judged according to their works. If it wasn't good enough, they were thrown into the lake of fire. Nowhere does it mention purgatory or "levels" of hell. However, i'm willing to be proven wrong, i just haven't heard of any proof of it. The way that i read it also implies that as death is gone, these people who are thrown into the lake of fire have to stay there for eternity, as they don't die. It doesn't sound like all that nice a place to me.

Just in case you haven't realied it, i'm a christian ;)

That test appeared about 5 seconds after the big bang. I think I was on my way to level 8 last time I did it...

Level 2

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You have come to a place mute of all light, where the wind bellows as the sea does in a tempest. This is the realm where the lustful spend eternity. Here, sinners are blown around endlessly by the unforgiving winds of unquenchable desire as punishment for their transgressions. The infernal hurricane that never rests hurtles the spirits onward in its rapine, whirling them round, and smiting, it molests them. You have betrayed reason at the behest of your appetite for pleasure, and so here you are doomed to remain. Cleopatra and Helen of Troy are two that share in your fate.

Oh yeah Purgatory hahahah no hell for me!

Level 2

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You have come to a place mute of all light, where the wind bellows as the sea does in a tempest. This is the realm where the lustful spend eternity. Here, sinners are blown around endlessly by the unforgiving winds of unquenchable desire as punishment for their transgressions. The infernal hurricane that never rests hurtles the spirits onward in its rapine, whirling them round, and smiting, it molests them. You have betrayed reason at the behest of your appetite for pleasure, and so here you are doomed to remain. Cleopatra and Helen of Troy are two that share in your fate.
Sounds great, I'm in too. (extreme) Only very high score on level 6.

The way I understand it, is basically as the bible says.
From acts 2

37 Now when they heard [this,] they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?
38 And Peter [said] unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Basically, "How do we escape judgement?" (from the previous few verses), to which peter responds by saying "repent, be baptized, and recieve the Holy Spirit"

You can not escape judgement.
Romans 3:23 puts it, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
"We shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" (Romans 14:10)


Later on, in revelations 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Which basically says that the dead, all of the dead, stand before God and they are judged according to their works. If it wasn't good enough, they were thrown into the lake of fire. Nowhere does it mention purgatory or "levels" of hell. However, i'm willing to be proven wrong, i just haven't heard of any proof of it. The way that i read it also implies that as death is gone, these people who are thrown into the lake of fire have to stay there for eternity, as they don't die. It doesn't sound like all that nice a place to me. Just in case you haven't realied it, i'm a christian ;)
We all will be judged the living and the dead as I sited scripture above.
Also, good wroks are NOT enough, the other posters were correct in their take on the subject.
Mk.16:16
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Acts 16:30-31
"Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."
Rom.1:16-17 ,Rom.3:20 ,Rom.3:28 ,Rom.4:2 , Rom.4:13, Gal.2:16 , Gal.3:11-12 ,
Eph.2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."

"The dust will return to the ground as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:17)
There are those who (Theological Scholars) who argue there is no Hell at all, rather degrees of Heaven, or total abscence from God.
You can interpret scripture all day and not come to a definate answer on Hell.
You are not proven wrong--but neither is the arguement for degrees of the final death. Also you must examine(if Christian) the Judaic interpretations of the Old Testament--that is only logical.

The Dante's Inferno Test has banished you to the Sixth Level of Hell - The City of Dis!

I got a "Very High" there...and the same for level 5. The next closest was level 8.

I got extreme on level 6, seeya all in the city of Dis

I think I did as badly as I did, not because of my violence and hatred toward others, but toward myself.
Most of it comes from the stupid things I did 2 years ago when I was nihilistic and depressed.

Oh well.

How the Hell did I get Purgatory?!

"and I was so looking forward ot being frozen into the ground (and maybe if I'm really lucky someone will be eating my brain)"

Nearly there, got [Moderate] this time around.

But I have been 'promoted' to the second level.

To all the people who have given clarification or contradiction on Christian interpretation of the judgement thing, thanks, but I really didn't mean this to be a deep philosophical thread.

Just a bit of fun to see where we are all gonna burn ;)

Craig

Good company

To all the people who have given clarification or contradiction on Christian interpretation of the judgement thing, thanks, but I really didn't mean this to be a deep philosophical thread.

Just a bit of fun to see where we are all gonna burn ;)

Craig
SOrry--
...:::Slowly one of the Hijackers lowers his opinion and backs slowly to his sea:::....
Oh I was "VeryHigh" on Level 2.

...:::Slowly one of the Hijackers lowers his opinion and backs slowly to his sea:::....

:D

Wow ....

Second level ... basically hell for hedonists

You have come to a place mute of all light, where the wind bellows as the sea does in a tempest. This is the realm where the lustful spend eternity. Here, sinners are blown around endlessly by the unforgiving winds of unquenchable desire as punishment for their transgressions. The infernal hurricane that never rests hurtles the spirits onward in its rapine, whirling them round, and smiting, it molests them. You have betrayed reason at the behest of your appetite for pleasure, and so here you are doomed to remain. Cleopatra and Helen of Troy are two that share in your fate.

Cleopatra and Helen of Troy, eh? So I get to spend eternity with beautiful women .... schweet.

Meh, doesn't sound too bad. At least I'm not being eaten by Satan or flogged or something.

First Level of Hell - Limbo

Charon ushers you across the river Acheron, and you find yourself upon the brink of grief's abysmal valley. You are in Limbo, a place of sorrow without torment. You encounter a seven-walled castle, and within those walls you find rolling fresh meadows illuminated by the light of reason, whereabout many shades dwell. These are the virtuous pagans, the great philosophers and authors, unbaptised children, and others unfit to enter the kingdom of heaven. You share company with Caesar, Homer, Virgil, Socrates, and Aristotle. There is no punishment here, and the atmosphere is peaceful, yet sad.

Meh, doesn't sound too bad. At least I'm not being eaten by Satan or flogged or something.

First Level of Hell - Limbo

No, but you still have to walk under the stick and that can't be good for your back.

I got layer four cause I'm greedy and don't care about anyone else.

5th level
See ya there
THIS SOUNDS FUN!!!!!!!!!!!

I got limbo.

Lust. Right now I'm foaming for a Red Sox victory.

It sounds perfectly reasonable. I don't believe God would be as creul to put a person who stole a loaf of bread with a serial rapist. Of course, based on one of the last verses of Revalation, I believe all people eventually have a shot at getting to Heaven, Christian or not. They'll just have to wait. And of course, those not deemed worthy on that judgement day will spend eternity in Hell. And eternity is forever and ever and ever, and I bet few people will be left down there. It'll be awfully lonely in Hell.

Limbo, at Moderate. Everything else was Very Low except for Level 6 (Dis - Heretics) at Low.

We seem to have an unusually high number of heritics. Is this a good sign or bad. Guess it depends on who you are. *evil laugh*

We seem to have an unusually high number of heritics. Is this a good sign or bad. Guess it depends on who you are. *evil laugh*

Everyone other than Catholics are heretics aren't they? I'd say that's alot of people.

I'll see you all in Level 6. Which is cool, because we get to kick it with all the Atheists, Agnostics, and anyone else who ignored Christians in this life. From this poll, I get the feeling it's going to get crowded...I'll bring a lawnchair. :D

And eternity is forever and ever and ever, and I bet few people will be left down there. It'll be awfully lonely in Hell.

Depends if this test is accurate :D

If it is, I'll have heaps of company, and depending on whether you can vacation to the other levelsl, there seem to be far more people to hang around with in Hell ;)

Craig

Which basically says that the dead, all of the dead, stand before God and they are judged according to their works. If it wasn't good enough, they were thrown into the lake of fire. Nowhere does it mention purgatory or "levels" of hell. However, i'm willing to be proven wrong, i just haven't heard of any proof of it. The way that i read it also implies that as death is gone, these people who are thrown into the lake of fire have to stay there for eternity, as they don't die. It doesn't sound like all that nice a place to me.

Just in case you haven't realied it, i'm a christian ;)

wow, thats kinda like me not having any proof for your religion at all, eh?

Originally Posted by Utracia
Everyone other than Catholics are heretics aren't they? I'd say that's alot of people.

No, not really. In the reforms of Vatican 2, Pope John Paul II essentially said that Catholicism is not necessarily the only way to heaven, and that one doesn't need to agree with every part of Church teaching. So if you live a good life, with good intentions, and some basic morals (think the common tenets of major religions) you're pretty much okay.

bump

First Level of Hell - Limbo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Charon ushers you across the river Acheron, and you find yourself upon the brink of grief's abysmal valley. You are in Limbo, a place of sorrow without torment. You encounter a seven-walled castle, and within those walls you find rolling fresh meadows illuminated by the light of reason, whereabout many shades dwell. These are the virtuous pagans, the great philosophers and authors, unbaptised children, and others unfit to enter the kingdom of heaven. You share company with Caesar, Homer, Virgil, Socrates, and Aristotle. There is no punishment here, and the atmosphere is peaceful, yet sad.

The Dante's Inferno Test has sent you to the First Level of Hell - Limbo!

Here is how you matched up against all the levels:
Level | Score
Purgatory | Very Low
Level 1 - Limbo | Very High
Level 2 | Moderate
Level 3 | Moderate
Level 4 | Very Low
Level 5 | Low
Level 6 - The City of Dis | High
Level 7 | Moderate
Level 8- the Malebolge | Moderate
Level 9 - Cocytus | Low

Sounds like the Ideal afterlife to me (If I have to ignore any thought of reincarnation that is)

Limbo for me

A few basic points:

1) No, it's Limbo that's the place where the noble pagans go to rest, not Purgatory. Purgatory is where you spend time expunging your sins in preperation for entrance into heaven. You can't get into Purgatory if you aren't a Christian at some level or another. If you aren't officially a Christian, then Limbo is the best you can hope for.

2) According to the 2nd Vatican conference, you don't need to be a Catholic to count as a Christian. So, in Catholicism, you can be a Protestant and get into heaven. That being said, a Protestant technically is still an excommunicate. Excommunicates, in Catholic teaching and assuming they make it into Purgatory, have to wait 50 years for every year of their excommunication at the bottom of Purgatory before they can begin their period of penance. So if you're a good Lutheran and you live to 75, then in Catholic thinking, you'll go to heaven. . .after you've sat around at the bottom of Purgatory for 3,750 years.

This number can be reduced if you get a Catholic to pray for your soul. Darn Pope has got us no matter which way we turn.

3) I'm in Purgatory. I think I need to get out more.

I took it last month, and got to level 8. The HTML for it is saved on the compy somewhere. I'm way too tired to look for it right now.

Apparently, though, not all atheists are considered heretics (for some reason or other). Consider, for instance, the following:

The Dante's Inferno Test has sent you to the First Level of Hell - Limbo!

Here is how you matched up against all the levels:
Level | Score
Purgatory | Very Low
Level 1 - Limbo | Very High
Level 2 | Moderate
Level 3 | High
Level 4 | Very Low
Level 5 | High
Level 6 - The City of Dis | High
Level 7 | Moderate
Level 8- the Malebolge | Moderate
Level 9 - Cocytus | Low

level 5, probably due to all the self-hating and stuff.


go me!

I got Purgatory on the test, although I should really be in Limbo as a non-christian.

Purgatory - Extreme
Level 1 - Limbo - High
Level 2 - Low
Level 3 - Low
Level 4 - Very Low
Level 5 - Low
Level 6 - The City of Dis - Very Low
Level 7 - Very Low
Level 8- the Malebolge - Low
Level 9 - Cocytus - Low

I got Limbo... I dropped out of evil school...

Unfortunately, I scored slightly higher for the Malebolge than I did for Dis, where I am hoping for.

I scored 'Very High' or 'Extreme' or whatever on like 6 of the levels though, So I am hoping they will let me take my pick or at least work a rotating schedule that will let me hang out with all my other heretic freinds on occasion. All the cool people will be in Dis.

"The earth is dirty. The sea is dirty. The heavens rain slush. We are already in Hell." (http://www.strindbergandhelium.com/park.html)

I am a virtuous heretic with an unfortunate propensity to violence, it seems.