NationStates Jolt Archive

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Other; the Revolutionary War. Don't start yelling at me about how that wasn't an 'american' war either...

Civil War

"Just" American war? Civil War, it was just Americans.

AAAAAAAHaha....ha.............ha...........ha





whoooo


Sorry, I'll go now....

Civil War
Ah well, at least I wasn't the only one...

Civil War
the civil war was not just
it was an invaision of the confed. by the us

Civil War
I fail to see what was just about a group of people denying another, weaker group of people political sovereignty.

I fail to see what was just about a group of people denying another, weaker group of people political sovereignty.

Fine, then you'd be in favor of Falluja remaining outside the control of the American/Iraqi coalition? Would you also be in favor of the Taliban remaining in power?

Fine, then you'd be in favor of Falluja remaining outside the control of the American/Iraqi coalition? Would you also be in favor of the Taliban remaining in power?

Psh. No.

"Because we're right!"

We really should've let you Nazis have your own damn country... See how far it "progressed" on its own, or should I say retrogressed.
We'd probably be waging a war on "Aryanjesustan" by now for terrorist attacks, slavery, homophobia, religious zealotry, anti-semetism, and "good ol' fashioned" mysoginy.

Psh. No.

"Because we're right!"

We really should've let you Nazis have your own damn country... See how far it "progressed" on its own, or should I say retrogressed.
We'd probably be waging a war on "Aryanjesustan" by now for terrorist attacks, slavery, homophobia, religious zealotry, anti-semetism, and "good ol' fashioned" mysoginy.

Yup. And since you can't really create sophisticated weapons systems using Creation Science, we Northerners would be dominating DixieJebustan.

Yup. And since you can't really create sophisticated weapons systems using Creation Science, we Northerners would be dominating DixieJebustan.

No, because we scientific and intelligent being have morals that religious people don't have. We have the Hypocratic oath and whatnot.

And we're jsut a bunch of "commie pinko liberals" (like Jesus was?).

I doubt we'd have that many weapons. Or at least we wouldn't be continuing arms races (Reagan) with a foreign government that wanted to withdraw, even though the initial point of joining the race was solely to combat a threat.

the civil war was not just
it was an invaision of the confed. by the us
Think how you will, although I personally call it a muffled uprising just like any other Civil War.

I think World War 2 was the most just. We kept our ground in not being too eager to begin the war, and didn't attack with full force until we ourselves were attacked (stupid move we now know, if you wonder why we hesitate to wait now). And we swiftly took care of the Japanese, and helped our allies in eliminating the Nazis.

Now let's not get into pre-war times against the U.S.S.R....but still.

Well, besides that "little" Hiroshima and Nagasaki "incident"... I'd probably agree with everything you said.

I would have to say WW II. However I don't agree with dropping of the atomic bomb on Japan.....

There have only been two "just" wars that america has ever been involved with/initiated (1) the war of independence and (2) the second world war. whenever i hear war and america in the same sentence i'm reminded of a quote i came across a little while ago
"War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.
I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.
I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.
It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty-three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.
I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.
I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.
During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."
-- Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933 by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC

What a sad thing for a man to realize.

And you really can't blame these people. It isn't like they're consiously aware that what they're doing is wrong, they're just being severely exploited by the higher-ups.

I fail to see what was just about a group of people denying another, weaker group of people political sovereignty.

speaking as the descendant of those slave owning southerners (part of my family history) and the descendent of a number of ancestors who fought the poor mans fight, rich mans war (quote from the period)... I would go along with the North having a just cause...

but World War II was clearly more a good vs evil fight (except for us being allied to the Soviets, but nothing is ever perfectly black and white)

Most just would be the War of Independence, closely followed byt the War of 1812.

Have to throw my two cents in as a guy who's lived in both the far north and far south and seen both sides.

The civil war wasn't a just war (in my opinion) because it was a war engaged upon by the north to consolodate power into a nationalist government ... whereas I'm all for a small national government and broader states rights. Of course, you can't deny the good that came out of it with the freedom of the slaves (even though it took decades to actually realize that freedom).

So let's start moving back towards states rights! Well ... without the slavery. ;)

World War 2. The Japanese deserved to be bitch-slapped after Pearl Harbor.

Of course, I'm also the grandson of a WWII vet so that might bias my vote a bit.

WW2, and I think Japan showed us what extreme jingoism can lead to.

Too bad people arn't paying attention...

I was tied up between Korea and 1812, but did end up deciding on Korea, as I have a deep dislike of the enemies involved. My poor nation suffered a lot because of them.

However, I refer to the USSR, not China. Im fine with China.

WWI and WWII are American wars? Man, I should talk to my English teacher, I'm obviously mistaken as to the definition of 'world' ;)

There is no such thing as a war on terrorism, war is done between states, not with techniques. And they're not termed wars anymore anyway, it's 'use of force'... :rolleyes:

Several posts have listed the War of 1812 as a just war. I'm not sure if it is the definition of "just" or the understanding of the War of 1812 being skewed.

The War of 1812, although called the Second American Revolution at the time, was instigated by expansionist American politicians and speculators in the West and South who hoped to gain new territory. Western politicians, such as Henry Clay, coveted Canada and Southern politicians wanted Spanish Florida. The close vote for war (79-49 in the House and 19-13 in the Senate) showed the country was divided about the wisdom of venturing "once more into the breech" with Great Britain.

Although the War Hawks of the time were chanting "Free Trade and Sailor's Rights," it was not the seafaring New England states, nor the commercial Mid-Atlantic States, who wanted the war (Mass., R.I., Conn., N.Y., N.J., and Delaware all voted against the war declaration). It was the landlocked states who were screaming loudest about maritime rights, in the hopes that a second war with Britain would open up new territories for expansion.

At best the War of 1812 was a "tie," although when considering the failed American invasion of Canada, the British destruction of the American capital, and the fact that Britain had repealed the onerous Orders in Council (ostensibly the cause of the war) two days before Congress declared war, it could be argued that the war was actually an American loss. Only Andrew Jackson's victory at the Battle of New Orleans (two weeks after the war was over) gave Americans at the time the impression that the war ended victoriously.

While I think WWII was the most just war, I can't say it was the most just American war given they were only one part of it. So I tried to look for a just war that was A) Just and B) just an American war. I came up with the American civil war. I believe it was just and I also believe the good guys won. So, my pick is the American civil war.

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Dwight D. Eisenhower
April 16, 1953

I'd say WW2 but possibly war of 1812 since they was invaded first.

war of 1812 since they was invaded first.

Yes, Canada was invaded first because Canada had no intentions of invading the US..lol.. I don't understand how any one can call invading Canada who had done nothing wrong to the US a just war. Nor do I think you should be too proud of it given you gained nothing from invading Canada except a whole bunch of body-bags.

It is definitely the Civil War.

I can't believe that people are still arguing that the Civil war was unjustifiable after 140 years has proven the preservation of the Union to be a very noble cause.

The only good thing that would have come from southern secession would be that Bush would have never been elected.

Yes, Canada was invaded first because Canada had no intentions of invading the US..lol.. I don't understand how any one can call invading Canada who had done nothing wrong to the US a just war. Nor do I think you should be too proud of it given you gained nothing from invading Canada except a whole bunch of body-bags.

Canada was part of the United Kingdom at the time. The UK had put sanctions on America and had prevented American trade. I would not call that nothing.

Talk all you want about the War fof 1812 being a just war-in truth, Canada kicked our ass when they burned down the white house :p

Even if we took over ALL of Canada afterwards-they still burned down the white house.

Common now.

Talk all you want about the War fof 1812 being a just war-in truth, Canada kicked our ass when they burned down the white house :p

Even if we took over ALL of Canada afterwards-they still burned down the white house.

Common now.

Actually, it was British Regulars who burned down the White House.

The revolutionary war.

Every other war has pretty much been America meddling in the affairs of others (except civil war where we meddled with ourselves and Indian wars where we screwed over the Indians). The Two world wars are the nex most 'just' because they were launched to save European freedom. After that, just about every war was needless, could have been avoided, or was rushed.

Actually, there has never been an 'American War' since WWII. Every other war was a police action or something else, but not a war.

Other; the Revolutionary War. Don't start yelling at me about how that wasn't an 'american' war either...
Agree.

The revolutionary war.

Every other war has pretty much been America meddling in the affairs of others (except civil war where we meddled with ourselves and Indian wars where we screwed over the Indians). The Two world wars are the nex most 'just' because they were launched to save European freedom. After that, just about every war was needless, could have been avoided, or was rushed.

Actually, there has never been an 'American War' since WWII. Every other war was a police action or something else, but not a war.
Korea was a War.

Over here in the U.K., we don't really get taught about the war of 1812. This is probably because we weren't really bothered about it, as we were rather busy sorting out a Corsican chappie by the name of Napoloen Bonaparte who wanted to rule all of Europe (including us) as well as Russia. He didn't win, mostly because invading Russia on foot in winter is stupid, but also because we fought an ongoing war in Spain and Portugal (supported by Spanish partisans, the original guerillas) against his armies, and trashed his fleet at Trafalgar in 1805. Napoleon wasn't exiled to Elba until 1814, so we were still rather occupied with him; the 'war' of 1812 didn't really interest us.
BTW, you bought a lot of your country off Napoleon (Louisiana purchase).

BTW, you bought a lot of your country off Napoleon (Louisiana purchase).

And we wanted to trade with him during the war.

Napoleon wasn't exiled to Elba until 1814, so we were still rather occupied with him; the 'war' of 1812 didn't really interest us.


Technically neither did the American Revolutionary War, that was why you paid German troops to do a lot of the fighting for your side. But back to the war of 1812

The United States declared War on Great Britain on June 12, 1812. The war was declared as a result of long simmering disputes with Great Britian. The central dispute surrounded the impressment of American soldiers by the British. The British had previously attacked the USS Chesapeake and nearly caused a war two year earlier. In addition, disputes continued with Great Britain over the Northwest Territories and the border with Canada. Finally, the attempts of Great Britain to impose a blockade on France during the Napoleonic Wars was a constant source of conflict with the United States.

Peronally I'm not going to go to great lengths to defend "Madison's War." He's not my most favorite founding father. But I will indicate an interesting quote from one of the web pages. "British impress American sailors 1803-1812 High seas British captains took over 10,000 American citizens to man ships." Key Events and Causes: War of 1812 (http://home.earthlink.net/~gfeldmeth/chart.1812.html) This is interesting because less than a century before that this very nation was stirred to righteous anger by the actions of Spain to impression and force British sailors to work on Spanish galleons.

the civil war was not just
it was an invaision of the confed. by the us
Think about it this way, if your arm falls off, do you just shrug and keep going on with your work? The South was a large part of the US, and losing it would mean a period of economic chaos worse than that during the Reconstruction.

Erm hey, why are we Americans getting accused of everything here in the War of 1812?

Yes, we deserve some of the blame, but give credit where credit's due, eh?

The British were the ones who boarded U.S. ships and took American sailors for their own use. The British were the ones who kept screwing with America after the Revolutionary War. The British were the ones holding Canada, and Canada was NOT a soviergn nation.

Other; the Revolutionary War. Don't start yelling at me about how that wasn't an 'american' war either...

Hardly. Only WW2 was really just. The colonists simply wanted to do things their way. You learn of their complaining of 'taxation without representation'. But that still could have been resolved peacefully with Britain. We simply got tired of being told what to do. That is totally understandable but hardly a very noble cause.

the civil war was not just
it was an invaision of the confed. by the us

an invasion? yes, after the CSA bombarded a US base.