NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3956129.stm

Republicans: "If you can't beat 'em, cheat 'em!"

A secret document obtained from inside Bush campaign headquarters in Florida suggests a plan - possibly in violation of US law - to disrupt voting in the state's African-American voting districts, a BBC Newsnight investigation reveals.

Two e-mails, prepared for the executive director of the Bush campaign in Florida and the campaign's national research director in Washington DC, contain a 15-page so-called "caging list".

It lists 1,886 names and addresses of voters in predominantly black and traditionally Democrat areas of Jacksonville, Florida.

An elections supervisor in Tallahassee, when shown the list, told Newsnight: "The only possible reason why they would keep such a thing is to challenge voters on election day."

Ion Sancho, a Democrat, noted that Florida law allows political party operatives inside polling stations to stop voters from obtaining a ballot.

Mass challenges

They may then only vote "provisionally" after signing an affidavit attesting to their legal voting status.

Mass challenges have never occurred in Florida. Indeed, says Mr Sancho, not one challenge has been made to a voter "in the 16 years I've been supervisor of elections."

"Quite frankly, this process can be used to slow down the voting process and cause chaos on election day; and discourage voters from voting."

Sancho calls it "intimidation." And it may be illegal.

In Washington, well-known civil rights attorney, Ralph Neas, noted that US federal law prohibits targeting challenges to voters, even if there is a basis for the challenge, if race is a factor in targeting the voters.

The list of Jacksonville voters covers an area with a majority of black residents.

When asked by Newsnight for an explanation of the list, Republican spokespersons claim the list merely records returned mail from either fundraising solicitations or returned letters sent to newly registered voters to verify their addresses for purposes of mailing campaign literature.

Republican state campaign spokeswoman Mindy Tucker Fletcher stated the list was not put together "in order to create" a challenge list, but refused to say it would not be used in that manner.

Rather, she did acknowledge that the party's poll workers will be instructed to challenge voters, "Where it's stated in the law."

There was no explanation as to why such clerical matters would be sent to top officials of the Bush campaign in Florida and Washington.

Private detective

In Jacksonville, to determine if Republicans were using the lists or other means of intimidating voters, we filmed a private detective filming every "early voter" - the majority of whom are black - from behind a vehicle with blacked-out windows.

The private detective claimed not to know who was paying for his all-day services.

On the scene, Democratic Congresswoman Corinne Brown said the surveillance operation was part of a campaign of intimidation tactics used by the Republican Party to intimate and scare off African American voters, almost all of whom are registered Democrats.
Why can't the Republicans just campaign like a decent party? A good way to get votes!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3956129.stm

Republicans: "If you can't beat 'em, cheat 'em!"


Why can't the Republicans just campaign like a decent party? A good way to get votes!
a. They have forgotten how
b. They are told to demonize "liberals" and so they forget to be decent politically.
c. They want to defeat theire own party.

They will be over taken by the Liberatarians at that point.

A link that works?

link worked fine for me...

Have you read the Newsweek article on this stuff? There is, amongst all the mudslinging, something sinister afoot.

That article completely presumes the Republicans' intent and then goes on to make it seem like it's coming straight from the horse's mouth so to speak. There's no proof that the Republicans are planning on something illegal based solely on this document.

A secret document obtained from inside Bush campaign headquarters in Florida suggests a plan - possibly in violation of US law - to disrupt voting in the state's African-American voting districts, a BBC Newsnight investigation reveals.
Just like the secret documents that appeared to discredit Bush's time in service.


Oh wait, the Democrats forged those.

That article completely presumes the Republicans' intent and then goes on to make it seem like it's coming straight from the horse's mouth so to speak. There's no proof that the Republicans are planning on something illegal based solely on this document.
theres no "proof" just pages and pages of implication

Just like the secret documents that appeared to discredit Bush's time in service.


Oh wait, the Democrats forged those.
you do realise they unearthed boxes of shit in military and government archives discrediting bush's service. read the news some time

theres no "proof" just pages and pages of implication

But the article takes all that supposition and makes it sound like a foregone conclusion. There's no concrete proof that the Republicans are going to do something illegal based solely on this document. Until there's more definable proof, this is BS.

That article completely presumes the Republicans' intent and then goes on to make it seem like it's coming straight from the horse's mouth so to speak. There's no proof that the Republicans are planning on something illegal based solely on this document.

except for 15 pages of black voters names and information. Why would the republicans need this information?

Had a little proxy server hiccup on it, for some reason.

Anyway: Guilty until proven innocent?

except for 15 pages of black voters names and information. Why would the republicans need this information?

Maybe they want to go door to door? Many candidates do that. :D

you do realise they unearthed boxes of shit in military and government archives discrediting bush's service. read the news some time
Link please.

Maybe they want to go door to door? Many candidates do that. :D

I don't think the republicans would do that. . . they're scared of black people.

/sarcasm

But the article takes all that supposition and makes it sound like a foregone conclusion. There's no concrete proof that the Republicans are going to do something illegal based solely on this document. Until there's more definable proof, this is BS.
more definable proof? do some damn research look up "republicans voter fraud" in google, you mgiht crash the engine

http://www.renewamerica.us/keyes/whois.htm

PS- Stop being racist. :(

except for 15 pages of black voters names and information. Why would the republicans need this information?

It doesn't matter. There's no actual proof based on this document that the Republicans are going to break the law, but this article assumes that they will. I'm not dumb. I realize that they don't have this list so they can send them thank you cards. But this article assumes WAY too much.

more definable proof? do some damn research look up "republicans voter fraud" in google, you mgiht crash the engine

If there's more definable proof somewhere as easily accessible as Google, then the author of the article should have included it in his piece. It's not up to me to go out and look for the information to support this guy's/girl's claims. It is their job. As it stands, this article takes one document and invents an entire scenario surrounding it about how the Republicans are evil.

Link please.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-10-15-bush-guard-records_x.htm

more definable proof? do some damn research look up "republicans voter fraud" in google, you mgiht crash the engine
I just did that and most of the results were unsubstantiated Liberal fearmongering. Maybe you could cite some resources that back up your assertions that this *must* be voter fraud.

more definable proof? do some damn research look up "republicans voter fraud" in google, you mgiht crash the engine

"Democrats voter fraud"

Returned 13 results

"Republicans voter fraud"

Returned 3 results

democrats voter fraud

Returned 134,000 results

republicans voter fraud

Returned 103,000 results

But I guess the EVIL REPUBLICANS OWN THE GOOGLE HAHAHAHA :rolleyes:

If there's more definable proof somewhere as easily accessible as Google, then the author of the article should have included it in his piece. It's not up to me to go out and look for the information to support this guy's/girl's claims. It is their job. As it stands, this article takes one document and invents an entire scenario surrounding it about how the Republicans are evil.

But if it says something negative about republicans then it MUST BE TRUE! No matter the facts!

If there's more definable proof somewhere as easily accessible as Google, then the author of the article should have included it in his piece. It's not up to me to go out and look for the information to support this guy's/girl's claims. It is their job. As it stands, this article takes one document and invents an entire scenario surrounding it about how the Republicans are evil.
you question it pretending the republicans are good natured people. the conclusion produced takes into account factors from other places by people supported by the RNC. if you are too stupid, ignorant, or uninformed to know about the other instances, i dearly hope you arnt voting

you question it pretending the republicans are good natured people. the conclusion produced takes into account factors from other places by people supported by the RNC. if you are too stupid, ignorant, or uninformed to know about the other instances, i dearly hope you arnt voting

Listen, child, the conclusion is based solely on supposition, not fact. There are no FACTS that say that the Republicans are going to commit voter fraud. You're too eager to believe what this article says because of your vitrolic hatred of everything Bush.

"Democrats voter fraud"

Returned 13 results

"Republicans voter fraud"

Returned 3 results

democrats voter fraud

Returned 134,000 results

republicans voter fraud

Returned 103,000 results

But I guess the EVIL REPUBLICANS OWN THE GOOGLE HAHAHAHA :rolleyes:

That only means democrats whine less...

"Democrats voter fraud"

Returned 13 results

"Republicans voter fraud"

Returned 3 results

democrats voter fraud

Returned 134,000 results

republicans voter fraud

Returned 103,000 results

But I guess the EVIL REPUBLICANS OWN THE GOOGLE HAHAHAHA :rolleyes:
exellent abuse of the english language

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/10/13/15534/960

Listen, child, the conclusion is based solely on supposition, not fact. There are no FACTS that say that the Republicans are going to commit voter fraud. You're too eager to believe what this article says because of your vitrolic hatred of everything Bush.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/10/13/15534/960

really? theres exampels from all over the nation of RNC voter recruiting drives taking democratic vote registrations and throwing them away

if thats not voter fraud i dunno what is

"Democrats voter fraud"

Returned 13 results

"Republicans voter fraud"

Returned 3 results

democrats voter fraud

Returned 134,000 results

republicans voter fraud

Returned 103,000 results

But I guess the EVIL REPUBLICANS OWN THE GOOGLE HAHAHAHA
Did you make that up? I found 99,000+ at the republicans voter fraud, not 3. l

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/10/13/15534/960

really? theres exampels from all over the nation of RNC voter recruiting drives taking democratic vote registrations and throwing them away

if thats not voter fraud i dunno what is

That has nothing to do with this article, and you know it. The fact remains that this article presumes that the Republicans are going to use this list of African-Americans to intimidate them into not voting, but there's no proof that that is their intention, based on the document in question.

The part about the private detective seemed strange and worrying. If it had been on any other page, I've might have ignored this article, but this was BBC, and they tend to be reliable.

An interesting article here (http://www.americasvoices.org/avarc2001/archives2001/CorsiD/CorsiD_080901.htm)


Also, Can Kerry get any more desperate and stupid? (http://www.drudgereport.com/dnce.htm)

I am english and i have been following the elections, over here were are all pretty much anti bush and even more so your electorial system. basically you can be senator if you have enough money, therefore the nation is run by money money hungry corruptable set of senators (i accept there are a few apart from this generalisation). i would not be surprised if this were true, but then again i would not be surprised if this was put out by the democrats, afterall they are almost as dirty as eachother. given the choice i would vote democrats any day just to get rid f that idiot who is running your country at the moment

That has nothing to do with this article, and you know it. The fact remains that this article presumes that the Republicans are going to use this list of African-Americans to intimidate them into not voting, but there's no proof that that is their intention, based on the document in question.
it presumes that BASED on previously perpetrated misdeeds, stop being so god damn naive.


The Republicans have my best interest at heart and are completely dedicated to fair and non-partisan voter registration despite any and all facts contrary to this statement.

An interesting article here (http://www.americasvoices.org/avarc2001/archives2001/CorsiD/CorsiD_080901.htm)


Also, Can Kerry get any more desperate and stupid? (http://www.drudgereport.com/dnce.htm)

Hmm. Good, unbiased sources both. Excellent job.

Hmm. Good, unbiased sources both. Excellent job.
you need sarcasm tags there

the first one makes a bunch of asinine assumptions that you like to complain about sdaeriji and has no sources to back it up. it is written by a partisan OPINION columnist, BRILLIANT

Hmm. Good, unbiased sources both. Excellent job.
lol
Edit - I don't even bother going to his links, because they're always to the Drudge report, or something similar...just like this time :rolleyes:

it presumes that BASED on previously perpetrated misdeeds, stop being so god damn naive.


The Republicans have my best interest at heart and are completely dedicated to fair and non-partisan voter registration despite any and all facts contrary to this statement.


Listen, I'm not a moron. I know that the Republicans don't have this list so they can send all the people on it fruit baskets. But the article takes one document, a list of names, and invents an entire scenario around it where the Republicans march into voting stations and prevent black people from voting, but there's absolutely no evidence from this list that that is their intention.

you need sarcasm tags there

I would have thought it was excruciatingly obvious that I was being sarcastic.

lol
Edit - I don't even bother going to his links, because they're always to the Drudge report, or something similar...just like this time :rolleyes:

Yeah, the second one is Drudge.

The first is "America's Voices -- A Forum for Conservative Americans".

Listen, I'm not a moron. I know that the Republicans don't have this list so they can send all the people on it fruit baskets. But the article takes one document, a list of names, and invents an entire scenario around it where the Republicans march into voting stations and prevent black people from voting, but there's absolutely no evidence from this list that that is their intention.

Ion Sancho, a Democrat, noted that Florida law allows political party operatives inside polling stations to stop voters from obtaining a ballot.
you were saying?

Democrats whine less? OMG this is the biggist bunch of BS I have ever heard. I am so angry I cannot even formulate a solid retort for the liberal article that was produced to incriminate the Republicans. Yes, the media is LIBERAL. :headbang: I am not a Republican, but I can't take this BS sitting down. Geesh, I can't wait till I am 35 and show you all what's what. (As in I am gonna run for Prez)

you need sarcasm tags there

the first one makes a bunch of asinine assumptions that you like to complain about sdaeriji and has no sources to back it up. it is written by a partisan OPINION columnist, BRILLIANT

I'm sure that it does. I only got to "America's Voices -- A Forum for Conservative Americans" before I stopped reading. It could contain tonight's winning lottery numbers and I wouldn't read it.

Democrats whine less? OMG this is the biggist bunch of BS I have ever heard. I am so angry I cannot even formulate a solid retort for the liberal article that was produced to incriminate the Republicans. Yes, the media is LIBERAL. :headbang: I am not a Republican, but I can't take this BS sitting down. Geesh, I can't wait till I am 35 and show you all what's what. (As in I am gonna run for Prez)
Well, you sound a bit too right wing, and too angry for me. You won't be getting my vote :)

An interesting article here (http://www.americasvoices.org/avarc2001/archives2001/CorsiD/CorsiD_080901.htm)


Also, Can Kerry get any more desperate and stupid? (http://www.drudgereport.com/dnce.htm)
Wait Kerry didn't say anything bad or desperate?
The report by that blog is only slanting his words and not summarizing...

Why do people rely on political hacks. What is next republicvans will cite Micheal Moore as truth. Same credibility according to repubs.

I'm sure that it does. I only got to "America's Voices -- A Forum for Conservative Americans" before I stopped reading. It could contain tonight's winning lottery numbers and I wouldn't read it.
Yeah...I just hovered over the links to see where they went to...I've nerve heard of "America's Voices" before, which usually means it's nothing credible. And of course, we all know how reliable Drudge is... ;)

Democrats whine less? OMG this is the biggist bunch of BS I have ever heard. I am so angry I cannot even formulate a solid retort for the liberal article that was produced to incriminate the Republicans. Yes, the media is LIBERAL. :headbang: I am not a Republican, but I can't take this BS sitting down. Geesh, I can't wait till I am 35 and show you all what's what. (As in I am gonna run for Prez)
your not a republican? sure your not...

and you want proof the democrats whine less?

search google for "democratic voter fraud" the very first site is a partisan republican site complaining about instances of supposed democratic voter fraud, not a news source

you were saying?

That proves NOTHING! That is more supposition. You PRESUME that since Florida law allows political operatives into polling stations to stop people from getting ballots, that MUST be what the Republicans are doing. But you have no actual proof that that is their intent. Until you unearth an official Republican Party document that explicitly says that this list is meant to be used to intimidate black voters, you have no proof.

Well, you sound a bit too right wing, and too angry for me. You won't be getting my vote :)

Of course I am angry right now, every one is :) I like to take the best of both parties to kick arse. (Pro Military spending, some tax increase, boo unemployment, pro science, etc.) Just whatever the hell you do, don't vote for Kerry this year. Vote green if you have to.

Democrats whine less? OMG this is the biggist bunch of BS I have ever heard. I am so angry I cannot even formulate a solid retort for the liberal article that was produced to incriminate the Republicans. Yes, the media is LIBERAL. :headbang: I am not a Republican, but I can't take this BS sitting down. Geesh, I can't wait till I am 35 and show you all what's what. (As in I am gonna run for Prez)
Wait you aren't democrats, republicans... What does that leave you?

Media isn't progressive. Media is neurtal. Its the editors, owners , and audience who are baised. They put their slant in the work.

your not a republican? sure your not...

and you want proof the democrats whine less?

search google for "democratic voter fraud" the very first site is a partisan republican site complaining about instances of supposed democratic voter fraud, not a news source

Since when did google become the hub for political doings? Any nublar can make a website about whatever they want, and if tons o' people go there, it pops up first. Hmm... Seems like a great source to quote.

That proves NOTHING! That is more supposition. You PRESUME that since Florida law allows political operatives into polling stations to stop people from getting ballots, that MUST be what the Republicans are doing. But you have no actual proof that that is their intent. Until you unearth an official Republican Party document that explicitly says that this list is meant to be used to intimidate black voters, you have no proof.
rofl, bit naive there of you still.

if a kid has guns and plans to the skill in his room, and is looking up how to make bombs on the internet, there is no proof he is planning to attack the school.

you know they can arrest people on those kinds of suppositions

2+2 DOES = 4


the document included names of african americans (a democratic voting base) from democratic areas. where are the lists of republicans?

Wait you aren't democrats, republicans... What does that leave you?

Media isn't progressive. Media is neurtal. Its the editors, owners , and audience who are baised. They put their slant in the work.

Until I can think of a funky fresh name, I am an indepent i guess...sigh.
But until I can think of a name, just say that I am an anti-democrat

Since when did google become the hub for political doings? Any nublar can make a website about whatever they want, and if tons o' people go there, it pops up first. Hmm... Seems like a great source to quote.
it proves the point is was making, stop being a a little bitch you supposed non republican

rofl, bit naive there of you still.

if a kid has guns and plans to the skill in his room, and is looking up how to make bombs on the internet, there is no proof he is planning to attack the school.

you know they can arrest people on those kinds of suppositions

2+2 DOES = 4


the document included names of african americans (a democratic voting base) from democratic areas. where are the lists of republicans?

Republicans don't need to campaign for republican votes as hard.

rofl, bit naive there of you still.

if a kid has guns and plans to the skill in his room, and is looking up how to make bombs on the internet, there is no proof he is planning to attack the school.

you know they can arrest people on those kinds of suppositions

2+2 DOES = 4


the document included names of african americans (a democratic voting base) from democratic areas. where are the lists of republicans?

Your crappy and nonsensical analogy nonwithstanding, it's still all supposition. You've yet to provide an iota of proof.

it proves the point is was making, stop being a a little bitch you supposed non republican

All I have to say is that you truly are the weakest link.

Republicans don't need to campaign for republican votes as hard.
and they dont need to campaign for democratic votes at all. how many times has bush visited massachusetts

At the very least, this discussion is getting my posts up from nil to a more respectable number :)

All I have to say is that you truly are the weakest link.

Alright, no more talking for you.

Just like the secret documents that appeared to discredit Bush's time in service.


Oh wait, the Democrats forged those.
:rolleyes: if couse they did (end sarcasm)

Your crappy and nonsensical analogy nonwithstanding, it's still all supposition. You've yet to provide an iota of proof.
i dearly hope you are either not of voting age, or not voting in 7 days, because if you are, our nation is screwed.

oh yeah, and dont become a cop

Wait you aren't democrats, republicans... What does that leave you?

Not all conservatives are republican...

Well, I have had fun here. But I am a busy man! (at least I like to think so) So I think that I will go form my own region now. GL and Have fun...Unless you vote for Kerry. In which case may you suffer an eternal wrath of long, droopy-faced press conferences.

Until I can think of a funky fresh name, I am an indepent i guess...sigh.
But until I can think of a name, just say that I am an anti-democrat
Bringing you back to Republican. Maybe you are a repub that votes demo or repub. But you still a repub.

Not all conservatives are republican...
well he villainizes the democrats and democratic supporters while ignoring republican downfalls

seems pretty republican base to me

Bringing you back to Republican. Maybe you are a repub that votes demo or repub. But you still a repub.

One last thing, You don't have to be republican to hate democrat nublars.

i dearly hope you are either not of voting age, or not voting in 7 days, because if you are, our nation is screwed.

oh yeah, and dont become a cop

Why? Who do you want to win the election?

Well, I have had fun here. But I am a busy man! (at least I like to think so) So I think that I will go form my own region now. GL and Have fun...Unless you vote for Kerry. In which case may you suffer an eternal wrath of long, droopy-faced press conferences.
...and multiple terrorist attacks weekly.

Did you make that up? I found 99,000+ at the republicans voter fraud, not 3. l

I put it in double quotes. Notice the double quotes. Putting words in double quotes in google returns the the phrase quoted, not just the words sporadically throughout the page.

Not all conservatives are republican...
Name a few.
Zell Miller doesn't count(he was a wacko after the convention.)

well he villainizes the democrats and democratic supporters while ignoring republican downfalls

seems pretty republican base to me

One last thing...again. I never praised the republicans. They have their probs (too much christianity for me), but they are by a vast margin the lesser of two evils.

Why? Who do you want to win the election?
i dont care, as long as they arnt voted in by people either too ignorant or too naive to udnerstand whats going on

a bit of optimism is great, but still being optimistic about something after your optimism was proven unfounded is bad

i dont care, as long as they arnt voted in by people either too ignorant or too naive to udnerstand whats going on

a bit of optimism is great, but still being optimistic about something after your optimism was proven unfounded is bad

So, are you calling me ignorant and naive because I pointed out that this article had no proof to back up its accusations?

So, are you calling me ignorant and naive because I pointed out that this article had no proof to back up its accusations?
im calling you ignorant or naive because of the simple fact you refuse to believe the republicans would ever do something like use the law to further their ability to win the election by challenging people trying to pick up ballots. the fact they have names of people and there have been hired detectives watching those people is the proof.

Of course I am angry right now, every one is :) I like to take the best of both parties to kick arse. (Pro Military spending, some tax increase, boo unemployment, pro science, etc.) Just whatever the hell you do, don't vote for Kerry this year. Vote green if you have to.
Sorry bud - I already voted Kerry. Absentee ballot, sent it out today :D

im calling you ignorant or naive because of the simple fact you refuse to believe the republicans would ever do something like use the law to further their ability to win the election by challenging people trying to pick up ballots. the fact they have names of people and there have been hired detectives watching those people is the proof.

I never said I don't believe that the Republicans would do that. I simply said that this article assumes that they will based solely on a single document with no actual proof. Like I've already said, I'm not an idiot. I realize what the Republicans are most likely planning. But there's no concrete proof that that is their intention, and you can't provide any, so your entire argument is invalid. You lose.

Sdaeriji is right I think. There is no absolute proof the Republicans are trying to stop black people from voting. But this list is suspicious and due to their past behaviour, I don't blame Greg Palast for suspecting the GOP of planning election fraud.

Anyway, I just watched Newsnight on BBC. They were interviewing black Florida voter Willie Steen (Steyn?) who said that he was denied the right to vote in 2000 because he was "a felon". He has never been arrested in his life. He took part in early voting this year and voted successfully.

i dearly hope you are either not of voting age, or not voting in 7 days, because if you are, our nation is screwed.

The same to you.

I never said I don't believe that the Republicans would do that. I simply said that this article assumes that they will based solely on a single document with no actual proof. Like I've already said, I'm not an idiot. I realize what the Republicans are most likely planning. But there's no concrete proof that that is their intention, and you can't provide any, so your entire argument is invalid. You lose.
how is my argument invalid?

my whoel argument was to coutner the statements you are making that the republicans are good nice people who arnt collecting lists of democratic names for any bad reason.

it is asinine to believe they are just collecting this knowledge just to have it. the pages are the proof to backup the assumption they will be trying to disrupt the voting process, by law, by challenging ballots of demcoratic voters.

i dont care, as long as they arnt voted in by people either too ignorant or too naive to udnerstand whats going on

Like you?

Maybe you should stay away from the polls.