NationStates Jolt Archive

I want to speak to anyone who actually believes, or, indeed, has had a horoscope which has come true.

I personally think its rubbish.

But that's just me. This is my first thread, so please don't tear me apart.

I want to speak to anyone who actually believes, or, indeed, has had a horoscope which has come true.

I personally think its rubbish.

But that's just me. This is my first thread, so please don't tear me apart.
You're right, it is rubbish. I should know. I'm an astrologer.

Would you begin to believe if a horoscope was accurate for you 7 days consecutively?

Not really. They're a bit vague.

Would you begin to believe if a horoscope was accurate for you 7 days consecutively?
usually (at least with the horoscopes I've read) the predictions are fairly vague, so they're open to your interpretation. i wouldn't read too much into them.

I'd belive it... but only if it wasn't vague...

Not something like

"In 2 seconds, you shall do something"

I want actual accurate results... like

At 2:35:30 you shall fall on your face, a dog will bite your ass, and you will the lottery in Pennsilvania, despite the fact you never signed up, and will be put in jail for fraud for that reason.....

That would also make quite an entertaining day wouldn't it?

I personnaly dont trust anything in all religions, horoscopes, swell of crystal and everything like that...

But that's just my opinion and I respect yours. :sniper:

Would you begin to believe if a horoscope was accurate for you 7 days consecutively?

No, I would look at multiple people over a period of time and see whether their horoscope was right more than 50% of the time, whilst accounting for vagueness with an arbitrary number related to the actual horoscope

No, I would look at multiple people over a period of time and see whether their horoscope was right more than 50% of the time, whilst accounting for vagueness with an arbitrary number related to the actual horoscope
which would make you come to the conclusion that it's all in people's minds.

No, I would look at multiple people over a period of time and see whether their horoscope was right more than 50% of the time, whilst accounting for vagueness with an arbitrary number related to the actual horoscope

I would actually want a much higher rate than 50%. I would hold out for 99%. Shoot for the the stars, Longton. :)

* :sniper:

*is shooting at a star*

Asterisks count as a star right?

Predictions are necessarily vague, because the future hasn't happened yet and is shaped by our actions in the present.

No possible way for the stars to affect anything in your life.

Fun fact: The classical Zodiac of twelve signs is now actually wrong.

If you didn't know, the Zodiac was determined by the ecliptic, which is the path the Sun appears to travel on through the sky over the course of a year. (It's exact position at, say, noon in the sky changes every day.) This was about five thousand years ago by the Mesopotamians, I believe. The constellations the Sun appeared to travel through were recorded and became the Zodiac. However, due to procession, the directon in which the Earth's axis points has changed since then (It didn't point at Polaris in the North before) and now the ecliptic has changed. It now passes through another constellation, Ophiuchus, and the dates have shifted over significantly.

No one should ever say "shoot for the stars, Longton", because Longton is in the Northwest of England and if anyone from there apart from me read this they might actually try and shoot stars, being the biggest bunch of inbreds you ever saw. I'm talking delivernce on speed here

* :sniper:

*is shooting at a star*

Asterisks count as a star right?
Absolutely.

but thanks for believing in me and my sad little world

yes but have you had your horoscope REALLY done? that crap in newspapers and magazines is worthless. an astrologer needs to know not just your date of birth but your TIME of birth and your exact location on the planet in order to make an accurate chart. some astrologers use your time of conception as a guide to making your chart but thats more problematic eh? "mom when was i conceived?" "well son, i was on spring break in cancun......so it was one of 3 different days but i cant be sure which...."

now what kind of atheist would i BE if i eschewed the notion of god but thought that the STARS contol our lives? its all BS

Pseudoscience makes me shudder.

if science can't accurately predict the future, hell, if weather forecasters can't accurately predict the future, how the hell can some random (sometimes) fraud/loony do it?

No possible way for the stars to affect anything in your life.
Right you are.

Fun fact: The classical Zodiac of twelve signs is now actually wrong.

If you didn't know, the Zodiac was determined by the eliptic, which is the path the Sun appears to travel on through the sky over the course of a year. (It's exact position at, say, noon in the sky changes every day.) This was about five thousand years ago by the Mesopotamians, I believe. The constellations the Sun appeared to travel through were recorded and became the Zodiac. However, due to procession, the directon in which the Earth's axis points has changed since then (It didn't point at Polaris in the North before) and now the eliptic has changed. It now passes through another constellation, Ophiuchus, and the dates have shifted over significantly.
It's spelled "ecliptic", but you're right. The Zodiac stars are not aligned as they used to be due to a progression of the Equinox. The Zodiac that begins 0° Aries was accurately depicted in the heavens in approximately the 2nd Century AD. That doesn't really affect the practice of astrology any, though.

Pseudoscience makes me shudder.
Astrology is no kind of science, so rest easy.

if science can't accurately predict the future, hell, if weather forecasters can't accurately predict the future, how the hell can some random (sometimes) fraud/loony do it?
A lot of the work of astrologers involves giving advice rather than making predictions.

A lot of the work of astrologers involves giving advice rather than making predictions.

So don't dress up as something you're not. call yourselves counsellors, or friends and be done

So don't dress up as something you're not. call yourselves counsellors, or friends and be done
Will do. ;-)

ta very much

I belive that there is something to the zodiac, although i do not think its entirely likely that the stars control the future...

What the system does have to its name is a set of twelve basic sorts of character, which it claims are dependant on the time of year you were born at. Many people have said to me "but you can't say that theres only tweleve sorts of people!!!"...these people not only did not understand what i said but also have no sense of scale. The clue is in the word "basic"...though im far too tored to go on to explain myself further at this time - i'll see what people throw at me first.

Basicaly, i do belive that they were on to somehting with the horroscope thing - i just think its like a race of desert island inhabitants who found a machine and use it for something other than it was intended for...i.e. they noticed a pattern to personality types...and belive me, if you actually do check up on this you can easily find that A) people very often/almost always match their zodiac sign, and B) the signs may be a little vague, but some are utterly contradictory of each other - the example aries and virgo springs to mind.

For a while i did check out people and their signs - and looked at the signs of my friends and the signs of those who i disliked (after drawing up some characteristics which i found not to my liking)...and i compared the people to the people they "should be" and found a pretty damned good correlation! very, very good in fact.

I'd like to mention that all horroscopes i have ever followed - on the occasions where i have looked at more than one out of interest - tend to predict the same things at the same times - indicating that there is more to them than someone simply making things up - although i dont doubt that happens some places - or at least if they are, they are talking to each other beforehand.



Id like to leave on the following note:

the reason that i do not dismiss this (or any other matter that requires belife) out of hand is because i am quite aware that i do not have a full understanding of the universe - and thats not to say i belive in magic, but it is to say that because there is a pattern to be found here, there is porbably a reason for this. For example, our environment chnages around us over the course of the year, and it does this in a largely predictable way (environmental oddities aside)...and things such as quality and colour of light, and the cycle of night and day affect mood and the mind - it is not an impossibly large leap to suggest that this pattern of seasons and seasonal traditions and events could leave its mark upon a baby's mind...ill admit that it is a stretch but not an impossible one.

Am I saying that the stars control us? I dont think so

I am saying that thousands upon thousands of years ago people noticed a pattern - that people born at differant times of the year had differant UNDERLYING characteristics - such as being more tacticurn, or more Vital, or more....well more whatever, thats not the point right now - what is the point is that they noticed something and said "yepyep...its the stars alright. Gotta be the stars. Stars it is by jove."

The christians referred to astrology as a "forbidden science" i belive...one reason god god pissed at babylon as i recall - anyone know for sure? Doesnt prove much but being a logical sort of guy i think that anything which survives for so long has something to it, even if its not what people would think...

And id like to apolagise for fading in and out of structured argument in that last post - i did not sleep very much at al last night and its been a long day and im in a rush to get to sleep

I belive that there is something to the zodiac, although i do not think its entirely likely that the stars control the future...
From the mouth of babes and sleepless people... ;-)

You have some very fine ideas, a good base on which to understand astrology. An open mind helps, too. ;) You are right --that the stars control us is not one of astrology's tenants. Well done.

The 12 signs of the Zodiac are sufficient to describe every trait that man has. What very few people realise is that the whole Zodiac is inherent in every horoscope chart drawn. We are not just a Aries or just a Virgo. Every person has the full potential of the Zodiac represented in their chart. The planetary symbols, like the Sun, whose position is determined by the date the chart is drawn for, put emphasis on certain traits but the other traits are not lacking.

(Perhaps a little rambling, but) generally sound stuff.



Part of the reason I can take more serious astrology seriously - the movements of stars and planets as a chronometer, linked to observed patterns of behaviour and character traits via stories and pictoral representations*. The difficulty with this justification being of course that the stories obscure the origonal observations and rationale, so astrological measurements may not travel that well through time or geography. What worked by the Indus in 2,000 BCE may be less reliable 4,000 years later in a different environment on the other side of the world.

The other reason to take astrology seriously is its oracular function, which is where ambiguity can be positively helpful. You are handed your astrological reading - it sheds light on your position or your future, but you have to interpret it to divine its meaning. And your interpretation can be a form of internal debate that helps clarify your thinking or determine your action. As such the reading has the same function as the I Ching, or the Guru Granth Sahib for Sikhs (or indeed the Bible for many Christians).

But, from its options, the poll is implicitly about popular astrology as found in western tabloids. Such may have some basic oracular function, but they are best seen as entertainment imho.


* More plausible to believe the scales, for example, are in the zodiac to remind the astrologer of character traits associated with the appearance of this constellation, than that the constellation looks anything like a set of scales. The zodiac always struck me as possibly the worst set of 'join the dots' pictures ever. There was a very good strip on this theme in Mad magazine back in the sixties.

Part of the reason I can take more serious astrology seriously - the movements of stars and planets as a chronometer, linked to observed patterns of behaviour and character traits via stories and pictoral representations*. The difficulty with this justification being of course that the stories obscure the origonal observations and rationale, so astrological measurements may not travel that well through time or geography. What worked by the Indus in 2,000 BCE may be less reliable 4,000 years later in a different environment on the other side of the world.
I'm not following... what's your reason here for taking it seriously?

The other reason to take astrology seriously is its oracular function, which is where ambiguity can be positively helpful. You are handed your astrological reading - it sheds light on your position or your future, but you have to interpret it to divine its meaning. And your interpretation can be a form of internal debate that helps clarify your thinking or determine your action. As such the reading has the same function as the I Ching, or the Guru Granth Sahib for Sikhs (or indeed the Bible for many Christians).
If you have to do your reading yourself, then your astrologer is not doing his or her job. Unless you got the reading from a machine. In either case, get your money back. ;-)

Ninja edit on the "c"!

There's really two aspects to horoscopes: there's general aspect where you basically go as broad as you with it. Some I've seen even suggest multiple possible personalities for the same sign or claim that your sign can be influenced by certain signs after it during any year with radical differences for each possibility.

People tend to have many common experiences during the course of their life as well and horoscopes capitalize on those when making daily predictions about you. They go for those common situations where anyone could say "Yeah, I've been though that too."

Then there's psycological aspect of it. Horoscopes, like psychics, tell you what you want to hear where it be positive characteristics that anyone would like to be thought of as or favourable prospects for future events.

As well, if a person gives some credibility to astrology and reads that they fit into a certain archetype then they will no doubt believe this to be true and that conscious suggestion will influence the person to fit into that gap! "Yeah, I guess kinda of am lazy, outgoing, shy, curious, etc."

You need to be conscious of the fact that people tend to forget the misses while only remembering the hits. Keep that in mind when reading horoscopes. I can usually get a cheap laugh fairly often when a horoscope of mine, my family or my friends is dead wrong. None of them big on astrology or any kind of mysticism, by the way.

Just as well, correlation does not equal causation. Helps when interpreting studies or statistics.

if were talking about predicting the future then why not add pre-cognisin(yes i know is spelled wrong) and the dayshaview(same as above) theries

(i cant spell)

Ninja edit on the "c"!

There's really two aspects to horoscopes: there's general aspect where you basically go as broad as you with it. Some I've seen even suggest multiple possible personalities for the same sign or claim that your sign can be influenced by certain signs after it during any year with radical differences for each possibility.

People tend to have many common experiences during the course of their life as well and horoscopes capitalize on those when making daily predictions about you. They go for those common situations where anyone could say "Yeah, I've been though that too."

Then there's psycological aspect of it. Horoscopes, like psychics, tell you what you want to hear where it be positive characteristics that anyone would like to be thought of as or favourable prospects for future events.

As well, if a person gives some credibility to astrology and reads that they fit into a certain archetype then they will no doubt believe this to be true and that conscious suggestion will influence the person to fit into that gap! "Yeah, I guess kinda of am lazy, outgoing, shy, curious, etc."
Horoscopes have more in common with divination than with psychics. It takes a random sampling of lots, in this case the moment of birth and the star pattern thereof, and draws meaning from it based on specific rules.

Astrology doesn't try to squeeze people into archetypes --rather, the symbols of the Zodiac describe characteristics common in all people.

You need to be conscious of the fact that people tend to forget the misses while only remembering the hits. Keep that in mind when reading horoscopes. I can usually get a cheap laugh fairly often when a horoscope of mine, my family or my friends is dead wrong. None of them big on astrology or any kind of mysticism, by the way.
You have to realise that newspaper column horoscopes are not all there is to astrology. They are a gimmick meant to entertain the masses.

Just as well, correlation does not equal causation. Helps when interpreting studies or statistics.
So true. The stars do not cause things to happen.

if were talking about predicting the future then why not add pre-cognisin(yes i know is spelled wrong) and the dayshaview(same as above) theries

(i cant spell)
Deja vu. It sounds like it's spelled, spelled like it sounds. ;-)

Horoscopes have more in common with divination than with psychics. It takes a random sampling of lots, in this case the moment of birth and the star pattern thereof, and draws meaning from it based on specific rules.


Are you trying to argue it's some sort of statistical science? There's no meaning to it, just generality. Even more fun if your sign is "intrepeted" as then the person has not only the information you give him, but your emotional state and responses as well as facial expressons and all the like to use to fashion a custom tailored meaning for you based on what you've told him and what you want to hear.


Astrology doesn't try to squeeze people into archetypes --rather, the symbols of the Zodiac describe characteristics common in all people.


Wording of quite a few would suggest otherwise, even conceding that, it makes them worth even less.


You have to realise that newspaper column horoscopes are not all there is to astrology. They are a gimmick meant to entertain the masses.


As opposed to the guy who'll scam you twenty-five bucks for a "reading"? The same ideas apply.

WE all believe what we want to Be-li-eve!! ;)

Are you trying to argue it's some sort of statistical science? There's no meaning to it, just generality. Even more fun if your sign is "intrepeted" as then the person has not only the information you give him, but your emotional state and responses as well as facial expressons and all the like to use to fashion a custom tailored meaning for you based on what you've told him and what you want to hear.
Astrology doesn't try to squeeze people into archetypes --rather, the symbols of the Zodiac describe characteristics common in all people.Wording of quite a few would suggest otherwise, even conceding that, it makes them worth even less.
1. Astrology is no kind of science; it's a divination. 2. The Sun-Sign columns in newspapers are not what astrology is. 3. I'm sure a wording of many of them would indicate otherwise, mostly because they are for entertainment purposes.

As opposed to the guy who'll scam you twenty-five bucks for a "reading"? The same ideas apply.
$25? Is that all they're charging?

1. Astrology is no kind of science; it's a divination.

So basically, an application of information gathering skills to give people some advice but the "ideology" and mysticism behind it has no basis in reality.

$25? Is that all they're charging?

That's what the fortune teller in Shenmue 2 charged you. xD

So basically, an application of information gathering skills to give people some advice but the "ideology" and mysticism behind it has no basis in reality.

That's what the fortune teller in Shenmue 2 charged you. xD
Don't know about the "ideology", or the mysticism, or even Shenmue 2, but the theory behind divination is simply symbolism.

What exactly do you mean?

What exactly do you mean?
Symbols represent things. If I'm a driver and I look at a red stop-light at an intersection, it has in it a world of meaning: It means I should stop a car if I'm driving towards it; it means I should proceed if I'm tangental to it, even if I don't have a light (as in a 3-way stop); it also means I should do a shoulder-check to ensure the person behind me has sufficient stopping room. I should check the lane right of me to see if anyone is turning, and I should check any lane left of me to see if someone is on that side. I have to be aware of road signs, lane-turning signs, the stop line, the pedestrians, as well as other cars and the crosswalks, and I have to be aware of the local ordinances active for the city or town I'm driving in.

No simple matter. And all for the sake of one small red sign.

Astrology is the practice of reading signs. Aries is a sign, a flag that says, "Here is someone who will look before they leap." Every astrology chart has within it all the signs of the Zodiac, so everyone has some "look before they leap" attribute. When an astrologer makes a chart --a real astrologer --he assigns such an attribute to the planets in the chart that fall within the sign of Aries. The astrologer has to be aware of the signs that come before the planet, the sign that comes after it, which house the planet resides in, and its relationship to other planets, as well as the context in which he is delivering his message. He has to keep in mind the rules that apply to the planet in Aries, as well as the meanings of all the symbols that relate to Aries.

No simple matter. This is symbolism. Symbolism is one thing that represents another thing. The signs of the Zodiac represent human attributes attributable to the planet signs in the chart.

An astrological chart takes into account the positions of all the planets in the solar system to define symbols. A Sun-sign newspaper column takes into account only one symbol --the Sun, and sometimes the Moon --and generalises a "fortune" based on its symbolism. It is done for entertainment of the masses, and cannot ever possibly be specific to one individual.

There is not much 'mysticism' involved. It's more a matter of assigning appropriate symbolism in the chart to reflect real life attributes.

Here is an astrology chart:
http://www.seabluegreen.com/astrology/images/charts/patty.png

This is a chart of my birth. The stars at the time of my birth are plotted as symbols that fall somewhere along the circle of the Zodiac. I'm not the way I am because of those stars --that would be silly, right? I'm not the way I am because of astrology; rather, I am who I am, and astrology is a tool for me to do things with that knowledge.

What am I looking at here? I'm looking at symbols plotted on a "map". That's what astrology really is --symbols plotted on a chart. What can I do with these symbols? Well, like any symbols, I can read them. They have meanings, just like the symbols I'm using to type these words at you have meanings.

The chart in the example above has context, because it was made for a purpose. It was made for me. I am its context. When I read the symbols, I read them in the context of me. If I were to look at just the chart without knowing whose it was and what it was for, the best I could do would be to give a general reading of what the symbols mean. It wouldn't mean much to anyone, because it's not read in any context. Sun-Sign newspaper columns are that kind of general reading.

It's as if I was looking at just a few words in a sentence and trying to guess what the whole book means. The astrologer who does newspaper columns has no way to relate them to any context in your life. His reading is more than random guesswork, but less than complete. That's why only some of them ring true. It's all for fun, anyway. That's why I like to read them.

Wow! My first thread and it got more than 5 posts!. Hmm, my friendly local astrologer ribbed me and said it would get none. **GASP!** Does that mean that - wait for it - a private astrologer was...WRONG???!?!?!?!??!

Willema - for a while i couldnt be sure you werent being sarcastic cos in the next post you questoned someone beliving... but im going to..erm..assume not, because you seem to be rather pro-astrology lol :) ...confused myself there - but having just eaten my first honust-t'god meal in 6 days (a thing i only realised today) i am hopefull that the confusion will..lessen...soonish..

ahem!

right - this is all very interesting...though i havent had anybody say that im clutching at straws with the whole "impact on growing mind" thing...dissapointing really

...i cant think more..ill come back later

hey - anyone able to tell me my birth chart for march 26 1985 (about 2 am) without me shelling out for it :D ?

Willema - for a while i couldnt be sure you werent being sarcastic cos in the next post you questoned someone beliving... but im going to..erm..assume not, because you seem to be rather pro-astrology lol :) ...confused myself there - but having just eaten my first honust-t'god meal in 6 days (a thing i only realised today) i am hopefull that the confusion will..lessen...soonish..

ahem!

right - this is all very interesting...though i havent had anybody say that im clutching at straws with the whole "impact on growing mind" thing...dissapointing really

...i cant think more..ill come back later
Sorry to confuse you. :cool:

Are you fasting for a reason? Ramadan? sickness? or did you just forget to eat?

hey - anyone able to tell me my birth chart for march 26 1985 (about 2 am) without me shelling out for it :D ?
Well, I could, but my life is rather busy now. I don't even have much time to work on my website.

hey - anyone able to tell me my birth chart for march 26 1985 (about 2 am) without me shelling out for it :D ?

Yes ... but not without knowing where, exactly, you were born.

Keruvalia - Dublin Hostpital, in dublin...in ireland...!

willamena - interesting story involving a surprise birthday party for my friend and the things i put into the now-slightly-tranished temple that is my body over the course of the evening...i was dressed as spiderman and wrestled a ninja at one point...im feeling better now though....the past few days havent been very productive though

DONE! :D Courtesy of: http://www.alabe.com/freechart/

Rising Sign is in 22 Degrees Sagittarius
You are known for being open, frank, outgoing and honest. At times, though, you are also blunt and quite indiscreet. Others have to learn not to take everything you say personally, because you usually do not mean any harm. You appreciate living your life in a straightforward and simple manner -- you dislike social niceties and consider them to be hindrances to real communication. You have lots and lots of energy and tend to become quite restless if you feel confined. You demand the freedom to do as you choose -- you must be self- directed or you feel trapped and anxious. With your abundant energy, you enjoy being outdoors, and you should be attracted to physical exercise or to those forms of sport which can help you burn off some of that excess energy. Very gregarious, you love to socialize -- your innate enthusiasm livens up any gathering.

Sun is in 05 Degrees Aries.
By nature, you are very energetic and high-spirited. You are fiercely independent -- you must be first in everything you do, and you enjoy taking risks. You are the one who will rush in where angels fear to tread. Quite brilliant at initiating new projects, you are terrible at following them through to completion. You are an enthusiastic leader but you tend to be a reluctant follower. Often you are quick to anger, but you usually recover just as fast, regretting later things you said when you were upset. One of your best traits is that you are simple and direct, blunt and honest -- just be careful you do not hurt others' feelings. Your need to be competitive at all costs may provoke resistance from others, but, as long as you maintain your usual Sunny good humor, this should not prove to be a major problem for you.

Moon is in 25 Degrees Taurus.
Warmth, comfort, security and familiar surroundings are necessary for you to feel at ease. Very loving and affectionate, you prefer a steady, patterned way of life. Patient, calm and steadfast, you are not easily upset. Others look to you for support. You tend to be a slow starter and a slow mover -- others may try to rush you, but they will never succeed. Emotionally, you are quite stubborn -- your attitudes about people and things were firmly set in your youth and will change very little as an adult. You are also very cautious and conservative about spending money. It is not that you are selfish, you just need to feel secure. Beware of a tendency to become overly complacent and too self-satisfied.

Mercury is in 18 Degrees Aries.
Very quick-witted, you are known for being an independent thinker. You love to debate and argue, and are excellent at repartee and battles of wits. At times, however, you act too fast on hastily formed opinions and thus waste a lot of energy defending your rash and sometimes incorrect conclusions. It is perfectly acceptable for you to defend your beliefs with your usual vigor, but try not to take the opinions of others as personal insults.

Venus is in 19 Degrees Aries.
You are a very affectionate person but you hate to be tied down. You are more than willing to be the aggressor in initiating new relationships. Indeed, once you have set your sights on someone, you tend to pursue him or her ardently and passionately. But you do demand your own way in a relationship. Try to give in to your partner's needs and desires once in a while.

Mars is in 07 Degrees Taurus.
Careful, slow and thorough about all that you do, at times you are also willful and stubborn when others try to alter your course. You are definitely not a quitter -- you will work long and hard to get what you want. Your possessions are very important to you. One of your continuing problems is that you tend to regard the significant people in your life much the same way as you do your possessions -- you become overly attached and much too jealous. You repress your anger when you get upset and that is not healthy. Try to learn to show your anger immediately in order to avoid painful explosions later.

Jupiter is in 09 Degrees Aquarius.
Your personal growth occurs when you have the freedom to do things in new and interesting ways -- this brings out your natural inventiveness. You are an individualist, but you are also attracted to mass movements that emphasize social betterment and you will devote much time and energy to their efforts. Very fair- minded and objective, you have extraordinary skills at organization and administration.

Saturn is in 27 Degrees Scorpio.
You tend to release emotional energies only very reluctantly. This is partly due to your fear of what horrible calamity might occur should they be released -- your emotions are terribly complicated and intense. Try not to repress these energies entirely, however, or you will succumb to negative and destructive forms of compulsive behavior. Give yourself the freedom to look awkward or silly once in a while. The relief you feel will be quite therapeutic and the embarrassment (whether it is real or imagined) will pass quickly.

Uranus is in 17 Degrees Sagittarius.
You, and most of your peers, have the tendency to think that all ideas, customs and traditions from the past are outmoded and irrelevant. You are attracted to radically new ideas, philosophies and religions that will, hopefully, cause sweeping changes throughout the world.

Neptune is in 03 Degrees Capricorn.
You, and your entire generation, will idealize work, practicality and the ability to attain reasonable goals. But, because you will also stress the need to be selfless and giving, you may find it difficult to attain your goals unless you have lowered your expectations on all fronts.

Pluto is in 04 Degrees Scorpio.
For your entire generation, this is a period of intense research and discovery in areas that were heretofore considered mysterious, remote or taboo. The root causes for many complex occurrences will be unearthed due to the intensity and thoroughness of the search.

N. Node is in 18 Degrees Taurus.
It's not in your nature to seek out many casual acquaintances in your daily round of activities. You feel much more comfortable with a small, close-knit group of people -- those with whom you can relax and work toward known and clearly defined goals. Your loyalty to a person or group, once given, is forever -- you'll expend all of your quite considerable energy in seeing that the group stays together and prospers. You choose your partners and relationships so carefully that you're bound to gain certain advantages from them, including those of a material nature. Be careful though not to let mere self-service be your motivation in establishing your connections -- make sure that there's an even give-and-take!

DONE! :D Courtesy of: http://www.alabe.com/freechart/

Rising Sign is in 22 Degrees Sagittarius...
This is what I meant by no context, Nimano. No doubt there will be some hits and some misses in the "interpretation" done by the machine, because it's not done in the context of you, specifically. This is not 'good astrology'.

From the link...

"Rising Sign is in 00 Degrees Leo
You love to be the center of attention and you want to appear strong, confident and dominant. You are very proud of yourself, sometimes quite vain even. When all around you are bedraggled and falling apart, you look like a million bucks! Very dignified and honorable, you enjoy the power and privilege, but not the responsibilities, that come with leadership. You are very idealistic but can also be quite stubborn. Others impress you only if they have integrity (but wealth, power and influence can also turn your head). You prefer rich, elegant surroundings and possessions, and will try to acquire them as your budget allows. Physically, you are very impressive - - at your best you have a regal, charismatic demeanor and bearing. Try not to be such a showoff! "

Damn ... I wish!

I was laughing too hard to read the rest. :D

Know what you mean - but on the whole its entirely correct and though this may sound like something i have just made up but just last night i was having one of those odd moments where i wonder why my personality seems to be so full of contradictions (belive it or not thats true - i d have those thoughts every now and then - that was following a discussion about social affairs in engalnd btw..)...so out of interest:

Rising Sign is in 22 Degrees Sagittarius
You are known for being open, frank, outgoing and honest. At times, though, you are also blunt and quite indiscreet. Others have to learn not to take everything you say personally, because you usually do not mean any harm. You appreciate living your life in a straightforward and simple manner -- you dislike social niceties and consider them to be hindrances to real communication. You have lots and lots of energy and tend to become quite restless if you feel confined. You demand the freedom to do as you choose -- you must be self- directed or you feel trapped and anxious. With your abundant energy, you enjoy being outdoors, and you should be attracted to physical exercise or to those forms of sport which can help you burn off some of that excess energy. Very gregarious, you love to socialize -- your innate enthusiasm livens up any gathering.

everything here is true, although due to a dislike of many sporting types (dont ask..) i tend not to play a lot of sport - love going to the gym tho

Sun is in 05 Degrees Aries.
By nature, you are very energetic and high-spirited. You are fiercely independent -- you must be first in everything you do, and you enjoy taking risks. You are the one who will rush in where angels fear to tread. Quite brilliant at initiating new projects, you are terrible at following them through to completion. You are an enthusiastic leader but you tend to be a reluctant follower. Often you are quick to anger, but you usually recover just as fast, regretting later things you said when you were upset. One of your best traits is that you are simple and direct, blunt and honest -- just be careful you do not hurt others' feelings. Your need to be competitive at all costs may provoke resistance from others, but, as long as you maintain your usual Sunny good humor, this should not prove to be a major problem for you.

This is so true its funny - but i really "stress myself out" when i worry that i have hurt somones feelings.

Moon is in 25 Degrees Taurus.
Warmth, comfort, security and familiar surroundings are necessary for you to feel at ease. Very loving and affectionate, you prefer a steady, patterned way of life. Patient, calm and steadfast, you are not easily upset. Others look to you for support. You tend to be a slow starter and a slow mover -- others may try to rush you, but they will never succeed. Emotionally, you are quite stubborn -- your attitudes about people and things were firmly set in your youth and will change very little as an adult. You are also very cautious and conservative about spending money. It is not that you are selfish, you just need to feel secure. Beware of a tendency to become overly complacent and too self-satisfied.

..I tell people that i hate being stuck in the house, and thats true - but its also true that im very careful to keep my home comfortable and relaxing (embarassingly i bought some joss-sticks last week..althogh because i dont consider myself the type of person who owns an incense burner, i have a bit of blue tack on my desk to stick them in and a tiny glass bowl to catch the ashes in). The slow bit....true and not true...its taken me days to do my current work but when im enthusiastic i will as they say "work like the clappers"...but i cant always be enthusiasitc..though normally i am...and the money thing is true althogh recently i have been forcing myself to take the risks when spending - but i really do mean *forcing*.

Mercury is in 18 Degrees Aries.
Very quick-witted, you are known for being an independent thinker. You love to debate and argue, and are excellent at repartee and battles of wits. At times, however, you act too fast on hastily formed opinions and thus waste a lot of energy defending your rash and sometimes incorrect conclusions. It is perfectly acceptable for you to defend your beliefs with your usual vigor, but try not to take the opinions of others as personal insults.

...guilty..especially about having to fight about rashly formed opinions....i perceive insult in many things but i try and let it slide in many cases

Venus is in 19 Degrees Aries.
You are a very affectionate person but you hate to be tied down. You are more than willing to be the aggressor in initiating new relationships. Indeed, once you have set your sights on someone, you tend to pursue him or her ardently and passionately. But you do demand your own way in a relationship. Try to give in to your partner's needs and desires once in a while.

this is mostly accurate..although having my own way has never been in issue in past relationships so i cant say

Mars is in 07 Degrees Taurus.
Careful, slow and thorough about all that you do, at times you are also willful and stubborn when others try to alter your course. You are definitely not a quitter -- you will work long and hard to get what you want. Your possessions are very important to you. One of your continuing problems is that you tend to regard the significant people in your life much the same way as you do your possessions -- you become overly attached and much too jealous. You repress your anger when you get upset and that is not healthy. Try to learn to show your anger immediately in order to avoid painful explosions later.

the people-possessions is quite true...alas.
The slow and thorough is..gah...i can be for things i really care about, but its usually not something that applies to me outside of a few times such as putting together a portfolio or doing my final display for my A-level art project...lol put my heart and soul into that...really paid off tho :D

Jupiter is in 09 Degrees Aquarius.
Your personal growth occurs when you have the freedom to do things in new and interesting ways -- this brings out your natural inventiveness. You are an individualist, but you are also attracted to mass movements that emphasize social betterment and you will devote much time and energy to their efforts. Very fair- minded and objective, you have extraordinary skills at organization and administration.

im not sure what it means about social movements - i hate Fad's and fasions...though i count myself well dressed i will die before i wear skate shoes or a blazer stroon with pin badges, or a retro-print Tee shirt...or a cap....or "jeans with anti-fit"...

Saturn is in 27 Degrees Scorpio.
You tend to release emotional energies only very reluctantly. This is partly due to your fear of what horrible calamity might occur should they be released -- your emotions are terribly complicated and intense. Try not to repress these energies entirely, however, or you will succumb to negative and destructive forms of compulsive behavior. Give yourself the freedom to look awkward or silly once in a while. The relief you feel will be quite therapeutic and the embarrassment (whether it is real or imagined) will pass quickly.

this is true, but usually i give in and go chasing whoever it is that i have fallen for this time, or whatever...or shout at someone or whatever the situatiion calls for...but i do tend to think about doing things a lot before i do them where emotions are involved - but this is mostly because of my emotionally bloody-awful teenage years i think. Again, i force myself into taking risks nowadays...though i hate to admit that i do force it.

Uranus is in 17 Degrees Sagittarius.
You, and most of your peers, have the tendency to think that all ideas, customs and traditions from the past are outmoded and irrelevant. You are attracted to radically new ideas, philosophies and religions that will, hopefully, cause sweeping changes throughout the world.

lol, that includes astrology? ...i used to think like this...now i try my hardest to keep an open mind about older things, and its been so long since i heard a new idea that i really dont know! I find myself attracted to classical civilization at the moment and i think that this is the backlash from being saturated with pretentious teen-culture and all its varied non-sequiteurs and stupidities....skate kids spoilt "open mind" ideas for me bnecause they spent their lives proclaiming that they were open minded whilst in fact having the most stringant unspoken social observences and the most rigid belife structure - i hate hypocrasy and so i couldnt stand this - same reason i hate blazers and crap...because it represents the mass-marketing of "individuality", and usually those who procure these fasion-items are too self involved to see that somone is laughing all te way to the bank because they have persuaded the asses that they are ALL individuals in exactley the same way..."the devils greatest trick was to convince the world that he did not exist"...nowadays theres no such thing as the non-individuals, at least in the mind of the human herd...now they are all "crazy", "mad", "insane", and "interesting and valid"....oh how i love that last one....more on this later.

Neptune is in 03 Degrees Capricorn.
You, and your entire generation, will idealize work, practicality and the ability to attain reasonable goals. But, because you will also stress the need to be selfless and giving, you may find it difficult to attain your goals unless you have lowered your expectations on all fronts.

This is true, i think it represents a cultural backlash against the previous generation...anyway thats a general one and not a me-only one, sooo..

Pluto is in 04 Degrees Scorpio.
For your entire generation, this is a period of intense research and discovery in areas that were heretofore considered mysterious, remote or taboo. The root causes for many complex occurrences will be unearthed due to the intensity and thoroughness of the search.

interesting and true..though i think that this could have been made up at any point in the past 20 years, to be fair

N. Node is in 18 Degrees Taurus.
It's not in your nature to seek out many casual acquaintances in your daily round of activities. You feel much more comfortable with a small, close-knit group of people -- those with whom you can relax and work toward known and clearly defined goals. Your loyalty to a person or group, once given, is forever -- you'll expend all of your quite considerable energy in seeing that the group stays together and prospers. You choose your partners and relationships so carefully that you're bound to gain certain advantages from them, including those of a material nature. Be careful though not to let mere self-service be your motivation in establishing your connections -- make sure that there's an even give-and-take!

yes. nothing wrong wih aqquaintaces but i still dont have a real need for them...

everything here is true, although due to a dislike of many sporting types (dont ask..) i tend not to play a lot of sport - love going to the gym tho

..I tell people that i hate being stuck in the house, and thats true - but its also true that im very careful to keep my home comfortable and relaxing...

etc.
Now this is putting things in the context of you. Adding depth to the literal meanings of the symbols by enriching them with actual experience. This is something only you can do.

The correspondence between the symbols and areas of your life is created by you when you identify which areas of your life belong to which symbol. You are a necessary ingredient in practicing astrology.

again, lots of rubbish. If the symbols have to be interpreted for each individual, it means that you may as well ask what happened to someone last week and say "yes, your symbols for last week, were saggitarius etc. but they mean EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU. And there is your proof." yeak. ok. :rolleyes:

(and so the mini-saga of my thread continues)

My chart is spooky accurate ...

I won't do the copy/paste, but you can see mine by plugging in:

July 1, 1972
7:36 AM
Atlanta, TX, USA.

again, lots of rubbish. If the symbols have to be interpreted for each individual, it means that you may as well ask what happened to someone last week and say "yes, your symbols for last week, were saggitarius etc. but they mean EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU. And there is your proof." yeak. ok. :rolleyes:
Haha. :-)

It's not about proving anything, that's not the goal of the game. You're playing a different game than the astrologer is. The goal of the game is to identify which symbols represent what happened last week, so that we can use those symbols in the next phase of the game, which is making recommendations to our clients, if they want them. And for every client it may be a different set of symbols that describes what happened last week.

For instance, what happened last week was that boy A chanced to meet girl B and they decided to go to a movie. They had a great time and laughed a lot, and then parted ways with an exchange of phone numbers. The next day, boy A rang up girl B to see if they could get together again, but suddenly it seems like she doesn't want to talk to him, she's avoiding him.

So our hypothetical astrologer sets out to find "what happened?" in the symbols. He makes a chart of the event to see if he can figure it.

For boy A's he finds the Moon in Cancer is the significant symbol in the meeting with girl B. This means that to boy A the meeting meant a possible friendship, maybe blossoming into a relationship down the road but nothing steady yet. His reason for calling her again the next day was innocent, to prolong the fun and friendship. For girl B's the astrologer finds that the significant symbol describing their meeting last week is found in Mercury in Leo. This means that to girl B the meeting was a one-time afternoon of simulating conversation and flirting. She had no intention of ever calling him back, just wanted someone to spend the day with.

The real meat of the game is what comes next: using the symbols to determine some advice for our erstwhile couple, if they should so choose. That's the important part.

Haha. :-)

It's not about proving anything, that's not the goal of the game. You're playing a different game than the astrologer is. The goal of the game is to identify which symbols represent what happened last week, so that we can use those symbols in the next phase of the game, which is making recommendations to our clients, if they want them. And for every client it may be a different set of symbols that describes what happened last week.

For instance, what happened last week was that boy A chanced to meet girl B and they decided to go to a movie. They had a great time and laughed a lot, and then parted ways with an exchange of phone numbers. The next day, boy A rang up girl B to see if they could get together again, but suddenly it seems like she doesn't want to talk to him, she's avoiding him.

So our hypothetical astrologer sets out to find "what happened?" in the symbols. He makes a chart of the event to see if he can figure it.

For boy A's he finds the Moon in Cancer is the significant symbol in the meeting with girl B. This means that to boy A the meeting meant a possible friendship, maybe blossoming into a relationship down the road but nothing steady yet. His reason for calling her again the next day was innocent, to prolong the fun and friendship. For girl B's the astrologer finds that the significant symbol describing their meeting last week is found in Mercury in Leo. This means that to girl B the meeting was a one-time afternoon of simulating conversation and flirting. She had no intention of ever calling him back, just wanted someone to spend the day with.

The real meat of the game is what comes next: using the symbols to determine some advice for our erstwhile couple, if they should so choose. That's the important part.

just talk to them normally using normal language, like asking her why she doesn't want to go back out with him. Maybe its because her horoscope said "love is definitely not in the air for you this week, so don't even try

just talk to them normally using normal language, like asking her why she doesn't want to go back out with him. Maybe its because her horoscope said "love is definitely not in the air for you this week, so don't even try
That would certainly be a first option, but it's not always possible to get the two people together. One may be uncooperative, or pick up and move to India all of a sudden.

Divination is good for those times when conventional means of information gathering and manipulating fail. Seriously, most people wouldn't think of turning to an astrologer first, before trying it solve things on their own. ;-)

I'm not following... what's your reason here for taking it seriously?


If you have to do your reading yourself, then your astrologer is not doing his or her job. Unless you got the reading from a machine. In either case, get your money back. ;-)

On the first point, as usual I failed to express myself clearly - sorry about that. What I was trying to say is that the planets and stars can be used as a calendar or clock. And if seasonal or periodic patterns are noticed in character traits, mental states or propitious actions they can be timed and predicted by the positions of said planets and stars. Back before detailed records, a way of remembering which astronomical configurations predict which patterns could have been to ascribe pictures or stories to the patterns that fitted the observations.

The problem arises when these pictures and stories obscure the detail of the origonal observed linkages, which will have been observed at a particular geographical location, environment and time in history. So it becomes difficult to translate those linkages to radically different times and circumstances. The linkages may hold, or they may not.

Just my theory.


I think my second point is driving at what you call divination in later posts. Different astrologers work differently, but, very generally (and in my very limited experience) - there is the casting of the star chart, then its interpretation by the astrologer, which should, but may not, take into account their reading of the recipient, and finally, there is the interpretation by the recipient. The astrologer's interpretation may be conveyed as simple advice to the recipient, or may take the form of a dialogue. The point is though, that to be assimilated and understood by the recipient, they have to re-interpret it into their own internal language and feelings. This is where ambiguity or cryptic language can be a positive tool.

A lot of astrological advice I've come across uses "you are ..., but you may ..." sentences, where the two clauses are opposing traits or principles. Typically active vs passive, good but not to excess, or encouraging vs cautionary. (The I Ching is particularly fond of this device - it's a dualism thing. ;) ) The recipient will recognise one of the traits, or want to follow one of the possible actions, and go from there. The positive aspect to this is that it allows recipients to follow their intuition, by articulating it. Alternatively, they may have an internal dialogue in order to find the best alignment for them. Again this can be positive as an exercise in self-discovery.

Meh. Now I'm rambling on a subject I haven't studied properly. I always did prefer my oracles to be simple and to the point.

Just my theory.
I think it's fantastic that you thought about it enough to form a theory. :-)

A lot of astrological advice I've come across uses "you are ..., but you may ..." sentences, where the two clauses are opposing traits or principles. Typically active vs passive, good but not to excess, or encouraging vs cautionary. (The I Ching is particularly fond of this device - it's a dualism thing. ;) ) The recipient will recognise one of the traits, or want to follow one of the possible actions, and go from there. The positive aspect to this is that it allows recipients to follow their intuition, by articulating it. Alternatively, they may have an internal dialogue in order to find the best alignment for them. Again this can be positive as an exercise in self-discovery.

Meh. Now I'm rambling on a subject I haven't studied properly. I always did prefer my oracles to be simple and to the point.
Divination was originally about asking the gods if the course you've set for yourself is favourable with them. If the gods favour the action, that will be indicated in the symbolism. Accordingly, an astrologer's advice should offer alternatives and probable outcomes, using the symbolism, logic and common sense.

My chart is spooky accurate ...

I won't do the copy/paste, but you can see mine by plugging in:

July 1, 1972
7:36 AM
Atlanta, TX, USA.
How do you think it is the chart is so accurate?

I think it's fantastic that you thought about it enough to form a theory. :-)

Eh, my mother's a faith healer (retired), my father was a mathematician (old-school). What can you do? *Shrug*

Divination was originally about asking the gods if the course you've set for yourself is favourable with them. If the gods favour the action, that will be indicated in the symbolism. Accordingly, an astrologer's advice should offer alternatives and probable outcomes, using the symbolism, logic and common sense.

Astrologers offer alternatives because, not being divine, they're unable to hold their advice out as definitive, yes?

Astrologers offer alternatives because, not being divine, they're unable to hold their advice out as definitive, yes?
Like any advice-giving, it depends on how much information they have. If they have assurance that they have found appropriate significance in the symbols, there is no reason they'd not hold one sound alternative out ahead of others.

Definativeness is entirely dependant on how sure the individual is in his reading of the symbols.

its better i suppose if the "seer" or whatever actually knows you, your reactions to things, your moods etc. i.e what kind of person you are. That isn't astrology, though, thats just prediction based on how well you think you know someone

its better i suppose if the "seer" or whatever actually knows you, your reactions to things, your moods etc. i.e what kind of person you are. That isn't astrology, though, thats just prediction based on how well you think you know someone
That's true. What you've stated it there isn't astrology. ;-)

I can read Tarot cards.. I don't really believe, but it's fun at parties.. ;)

Like any advice-giving, it depends on how much information they have. If they have assurance that they have found appropriate significance in the symbols, there is no reason they'd not hold one sound alternative out ahead of others.

OK, that makes sense, though most of the astrology I've seen has tended to the ambiguous. But that may be because I've not gone in so much for the interactive stuff. Presumably investigating context and seeing reactions can add assurance to the process.

I can read Tarot cards.. I don't really believe, but it's fun at parties.. ;)
Tarot is a lot of fun! I like how it directly involves the user with their own thought processes, rather than taking cues from manipulation of the symbols as astrology does.

OK, that makes sense, though most of the astrology I've seen has tended to the ambiguous. But that may be because I've not gone in so much for the interactive stuff. Presumably investigating context and seeing reactions can add assurance to the process.
Predictive astrology is necessarily ambiguous, since the future is not fixed and our actions in the present shape what will come. More often readings are about the present, and of a very mundane nature: "Would it be a good match if I pursue a relationship with so-and-so?" Pursuit is the thing, and that is taking place in the present, right now. Without knowing so-and-so, and only a brief meeting with the client, an astrologer can come up with a satisfactory answer from the symbols. However, knowing the circumstances of the client's need, what drives him to feel he should consult an astrologer about it, talking with the client about alternatives, would produce a more meaningful reading from the symbolism that would better benefit the client. And helping the client is what it's all about.

Predictive astrology is necessarily ambiguous, since the future is not fixed and our actions in the present shape what will come. More often readings are about the present, and of a very mundane nature: "Would it be a good match if I pursue a relationship with so-and-so?" Pursuit is the thing, and that is taking place in the present, right now. Without knowing so-and-so, and only a brief meeting with the client, an astrologer can come up with a satisfactory answer from the symbols. However, knowing the circumstances of the client's need, what drives him to feel he should consult an astrologer about it, talking with the client about alternatives, would produce a more meaningful reading from the symbolism that would better benefit the client. And helping the client is what it's all about.
Understood. Thanks.