NationStates Jolt Archive

Ive had debates on who is better, now the public will decide.

Please DONT use puppets, otherwise its not fun. And I have like 20 puppets and I dont use them so dont be a looser.

Kerry. Clinton was a centrist mainstream Dem. Kerry is a true liberal, he just pretends to be moderate.

Kerry. Clinton was a centrist mainstream Dem. Kerry is a true liberal, he just pretends to be moderate.
pffffff.... true liberal.

You guys are so funny

Clinton, but they both suck.

Now, a really importante question.
Kerry vs Clinton, who has the bigger forehead?

Clinton, but they both suck.

Oh come on, you gotta love Clinton, I really like Kerry, but Clinton was just an amazing President, one of our best, I would rank him in the top 5.

Kerry. Clinton was a centrist mainstream Dem. Kerry is a true liberal, he just pretends to be moderate.

Oh and by the way thanks for help creating this poll

Clinton, but they both suck.

Seriously. How, by any stretch of the imagination can you compare the job Clinton did, even with an antagonistic Congress, with the utter failure in EVERYTHING Bush has been.

Reality, meet Kwangistar. Kwangistar, meet Reality. I believe you've never met before.

Seriously. How, by any stretch of the imagination can you compare the job Clinton did, even with an antagonistic Congress, with the utter failure in EVERYTHING Bush has been.

Reality, meet Kwangistar. Kwangistar, meet Reality. I believe you've never met before.
Most of the good things that happened under Clinton's administration were in part or almost totally due to the "antagonistic Congress". Take for example Welfare reform. Clinton vetoed it twice, and now when people list off his "accomplishments" they put it on. He only passed it because election time was coming up and he realized what the polls said. :rolleyes:

Kerry. Clinton was a centrist mainstream Dem. Kerry is a true liberal, he just pretends to be moderate.

Help me understand american politics please (I´m brazilian), what is the exactly difference beetwen a conservative and a liberal since everyone is ultra-right?

pffffff.... true liberal.

You guys are so funny
Explain further :p

Explain further :p
You won't get it.

Live in Europe; you'll know what I mean

I personally agree more on the issues with Kerry/Edwards, but because Clinton was more of a centrist Deomcrat, he was often able to work with moderate Republicans as well as the Democratic base. That's why his approval rating when he left office was about 65%. That and he created 23 million jobs. :D

You won't get it.

Live in Europe; you'll know what I mean
*Slaps forehead*
Forgot we're not all Americans here. :D
May we one day reach the glorious liberated socialized Europe (I'm not being sarcastic). Prostitution, weed, gay marriage...America has a long way to go to real freedom.

Clinton, but they both suck.
Possibly.. but so far, only got GOT sucked ;)

Clinton was a better at leading our country than John Kerry will ever be. Although I have a bone to pick with him (it's NOT about Monica, can anybody guess it?)



BTW, just as an interesting fact, Michael Moore once called him "Our best Republican president"

*Slaps forehead*
Forgot we're not all Americans here. :D
May we one day reach the glorious liberated socialized Europe (I'm not being sarcastic). Prostitution, weed, gay marriage...America has a long way to go.
I'm a liberal and I don't support legalizing recreational drug use. Prositution laws are just unenforcable and intrusive, so why have them on the books?
As for gay marriage--I personally support it but can recognize why some people would be offended by it. Civil unions should be the norm, so both sides are happy.

*Slaps forehead*
Forgot we're not all Americans here. :D
May we one day reach the glorious liberated socialized Europe (I'm not being sarcastic). Prostitution, weed, gay marriage...America has a long way to go to real freedom.
USA: Biggest Porn Industry in the world. Prostitution is illegal

"BTW, just as an interesting fact, Michael Moore once called him "Our best Republican president"

Yeah, Michael Moore's a little extreme for my tastes. I don't think much of him, really.

Most of the good things that happened under Clinton's administration were in part or almost totally due to the "antagonistic Congress". Take for example Welfare reform. Clinton vetoed it twice, and now when people list off his "accomplishments" they put it on. He only passed it because election time was coming up and he realized what the polls said. :rolleyes:

Well what about the Econemy? we wernt ONE DOLLAR IN DEBT. now we are...What??? a TRILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT!?!?!?! Wow, bush is INCREDIBLE, he is the first president to accomplish such a feat! As a matter of fact, i believe i would vote in a mass murderer over bush! :sniper:

Well what about the Econemy? we wernt ONE DOLLAR IN DEBT. now we are...What??? a TRILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT!?!?!?! Wow, bush is INCREDIBLE, he is the first president to accomplish such a feat! As a matter of fact, i believe i would vote in a mass murderer over bush! :sniper:
silly, Bush IS a mass murderer

silly, Bush IS a mass murderer
He'd vote Bush over Bush :confused:

Well what about the Econemy? we wernt ONE DOLLAR IN DEBT. now we are...What??? a TRILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT!?!?!?! Wow, bush is INCREDIBLE, he is the first president to accomplish such a feat! As a matter of fact, i believe i would vote in a mass murderer over bush! :sniper:
ixnay on the assmay urderermay

He'd vote Bush over Bush :confused:
I was just reminding him that Bush actually was a mass murderer, so better off voting for someone sane.

Did anybody else see my post about Michael Moore claiming Clinton to be the "best Republican President"?

I was just reminding him that Bush actually was a mass murderer, so better off voting for someone sane.
What do you mean was?

What do you mean was? sorry--is

Budget from 1960-2002: http://www.uuforum.org/deficit.htm

I remember really hating Clinton, but then again, in Brazil we ALWAYS hate americans, that don´t stop us from being slaves and eating at mcdonald´s 3 times a week, but we really hate all americans presidents, but now that I´m a little older, I think that on the international scene (because, since I´m outside the US, is all I get) he did an excelent job keeping peace in the Palestine, and I remember preety well that a lot of things went wrong in the kosovo war, but then again, that war was much better off then Iraq is right now, at least when it ended, it ended.
Now talking south america, Clinton was as abusive as any american president, but since Fernando Henrique (BraSil´s president at the time) was his personal friends, nothing big was done. Now, when the bush dictatorship began, the first proposal we got from the US was "ok, our products will enter your country and we won´t pay any tax at all, but when something from your country enters my country, you will have to pay a lot of taxes, this way, we will fuck up your industry without fucking mine, agreed?" and be4 terrorism was an issue, Bush a lot to make us accept this.
I know this isn´t a bush vs clinton tread, but I use this to ilustrate that Clinton was a homicidal maniac just like any american, but at least he was better then the normal, now, Kerry "strong point" is that he actually fought in a war, he killed people, so I may be really off, but my opinion is that he will not be really a pacifist... but then again, no american wants a peace...

With the exception of lying under oath, I even the staunch republican I am thought Clinton was an ok president. Not a good Commander-in-Chief, but good on the states side for the most part. Its part of the reason I wish they'd make the COmmanderin-Chief a separate position and have two separate presidents. One for domestic issues, one for foreign policy, both having to work together to accomplish things.

but then again, no american wants a peace...Hey, Hey, I want peace! I initially supported the Iraq war, but now I think it was a mistake. The way Americans come to hate Brazilians is if they say that we don't like peace. Even the Republicans do!

With the exception of lying under oath, I even the staunch republican I am thought Clinton was an ok president. Not a good Commander-in-Chief, but good on the states side for the most part. Its part of the reason I wish they'd make the COmmanderin-Chief a separate position and have two separate presidents. One for domestic issues, one for foreign policy, both having to work together to accomplish things. That's my point that Clinton could reach across the aisle. As for your idea for the separate jobs, that's a pretty radical idea. Plus, the president has advisors on domestic and foreign affairs. And it's not like the President has unlimited power.

Let me remind everyone that there was not one US casualty in Kosovo, and Clinton had to fight the Republicans constantly to get anything done militarily.

Honestly, how would Bush have held up under the same kind of investigation Clinton was under? We all know now that Whitewater was bogus, and Bill was almost crucified for a blow job.

If Clinton were President now, how maniacally would the Republicans have hunted him down for invading Iraq on bad intelligence?

Clinton.
Kerry is too conservative. Clinton was more moderate.

Hey, Hey, I want peace! I initially supported the Iraq war, but now I think it was a mistake. The way Americans come to hate Brazilians is if they say that we don't like peace. Even the Republicans do!
Sorry, I just assume that everyone who supports bush are warmongers and those who support Kerry are less warmongers, but like a little war for hobbie now and then.
I was discussing this in class today, actually, and like, while brazilians satisfy their patriotic ego by winning soccer games, americans feel more patriotic when they are bombing poor countries.

Sorry, I just assume that everyone who supports bush are warmongers and those who support Kerry are less warmongers, but like a little war for hobbie now and then.
XD Yes, I enjoy occasionally going to war as well. Blow off some steam, you know?

With the exception of lying under oath, I even the staunch republican I am thought Clinton was an ok president. Not a good Commander-in-Chief, but good on the states side for the most part. Its part of the reason I wish they'd make the COmmanderin-Chief a separate position and have two separate presidents. One for domestic issues, one for foreign policy, both having to work together to accomplish things.

One of the main reasons the president is also commander-in-chief is so that our military is headed by a civilian rather than a military leader. This helps to prevent a popular military commander from organizing a coup d'etat.

One of the main reasons the president is also commander-in-chief is so that our military is headed by a civilian rather than a military leader. This helps to prevent a popular military commander from organizing a coup d'etat.
Excellent point

Clinton.
Kerry is too conservative. Clinton was more moderate.
you mean Kerry is too "liberal"

Let me remind everyone that there was not one US casualty in Kosovo, and Clinton had to fight the Republicans constantly to get anything done militarily.

Honestly, how would Bush have held up under the same kind of investigation Clinton was under? We all know now that Whitewater was bogus, and Bill was almost crucified for a blow job.

If Clinton were President now, how maniacally would the Republicans have hunted him down for invading Iraq on bad intelligence?
good points, all

Clinton was a very good president, the country thrived during his terms. Imagine what he could have done if the Repubs and Ken Lay hadn't wasted so much of the governments time and our money on a witch hunt that lasted virtually his entire term and in the end the worst they could dig up was that he got a blowjob from the chubby chick who made copies and lied about it (like any other sane married man would). You'd think from the way he's vilified by the right that he had ties to Bin Laden or something.

Oh wait..... that's the other guy....

Clinton was a very good president, the country thrived during his terms. Imagine what he could have done if the Repubs and Ken Lay hadn't wasted so much of the governments time and our money on a witch hunt that lasted virtually his entire term and in the end the worst they could dig up was that he got a blowjob from the chubby chick who made copies and lied about it (like any other sane married man would). You'd think from the way he's vilified by the right that he had ties to Bin Laden or something.

Oh wait..... that's the other guy....I'm a true Democrat, but come on--Bush wasn't behind 9/11. He may have ties to Saudis, but not Osama.

you mean Kerry is too "liberal"

This is the problem with politicians (usually the liberal/moderate ones), you just can't be sure of their stances.
I used to deify Clinton because I thought he was the paragon of liberalism. Maybe it was simply because my first memory of political opinions was in 1992 (I was 5), when I said "I like Clinton because he is good for the enviroment (intentional mispelling)."
In retrospect, many of Clinton's "liberal" policies can be claimed to be simply efforts to appeal to the liberals in the country (at the time).

It's hard to distinguish "liberal" from "moderate" at a time when both are (and were) found in the Democratic Party, while only "conservative" and "[inhuman/religious]" are found in the Republican party (though there are certainly a handful of "moderate" and "fiscally conservative" members of the latter).

I'm a true Democrat, but come on--Bush wasn't behind 9/11. He may have ties to Saudis, but not Osama.

Yeah, I find that hard to believe. He's ACTUALLY done/believes plenty of bad things without making up lies about him.
---

I honestly can't believe Kerry is as liberal as everyone says he is. He certainly doesn't seem (read as: "looks") that way. I personally think it's the latest repetitious attack from the Bush camp (as opposed to flip-flopper or anti-war hippy, et al).

And seriously, I can't see how "liberal" is an offensive term. It's a cognate for the word freedom, and throughout time has been the "good" force in politics, at least in social areas. (Note that I am in no way claiming that being [govermentally] fiscally liberal is good/praiseworthy).

This is the problem with politicians (usually the liberal/moderate ones), you just can't be sure of their stances.
I used to deify Clinton because I thought he was the paragon of liberalism. Maybe it was simply because my first memory of political opinions was in 1992 (I was 5), when I said "I like Clinton because he is good for the enviroment (intentional mispelling)."
In retrospect, many of Clinton's "liberal" policies can be claimed to be simply efforts to appeal to the liberals in the country (at the time).

It's hard to distinguish "liberal" from "moderate" at a time when both are (and were) found in the Democratic Party, while only "conservative" and "[inhuman/religious]" are found in the Republican party (though there are certainly a handful of "moderate" and "fiscally conservative" members of the latter).
whoa, I'm confused :confused:

And seriously, I can't see how "liberal" is an offensive term. It's a cognate for the word freedom, and throughout time has been the "good" force in politics, at least in social areas. (Note that I am in no way claiming that being [govermentally] fiscally liberal is good/praiseworthy).
"liberal" and "conservative" are just labels. True liberals are libertarians and conservatives are centrists (opposed to radical change). Democrats are mostly progressive, while Republicans are reactionary.

Kerry is more liberal than Clinton, we agree on this right?

Kerry is more liberal than Clinton, we agree on this right?

No. Clinton was more conservative economically, but more liberal socially.

And it's actually more complex than that.

Kerry is more liberal than Clinton, we agree on this right?Basically, yes. The bare bones is that Kerry is more liberal than Clinton.

I'm a true Democrat, but come on--Bush wasn't behind 9/11. He may have ties to Saudis, but not Osama.Yes he does, the Bush's and the Bin Ladens go way back. I'm not saying that Dubya and Osama ever sat down for cocktails, but there is a documented traceable link, even if it's just through family.



BTW the only gripe I have with Clinton is I wish he'd quit e-mailing me. At first I was flattered, but he can be such a pain at times.......

Basically, yes. The bare bones is that Kerry is more liberal than Clinton.

I disagree, see my prior post.

No. Clinton was more conservative economically, but more liberal socially.

And it's actually more complex than that.
Really? Clinton passed the DOMA and Don't Ask Don't Tell bullshit, I can't imagine Kerry supporting something like that. Hell, I get the feeling Kerry would support gay marriage if it wasn't political suicide to do so. I don't have much else I'm afraid. What social stances was Clinton more liberal on? Abortion? Capital punishment?

Forgot we're not all Americans here. :D
May we one day reach the glorious liberated socialized Europe (I'm not being sarcastic). Prostitution, weed, gay marriage...America has a long way to go to real freedom.
Don't fool yourself, the only country which has all those is the Netherlands. Spain, Denmark and Belgium have gay marriage too.

Don't fool yourself, the only country which has all those is the Netherlands. Spain, Denmark and Belgium have gay marriage too.
Well, France, Germany, England and all the rest will legalize those LONG before America does. In addition, I believe Canada now has gay marriage? Or just civil unions, I need to check.

In addition, I believe Canada now has gay marriage? Or just civil unions, I need to check.
I think just in Quebec and Ontario they have gay marriages

Clinton was a superb president. He definetly cleaned up a great deal of the unemployment problem, giving people jobs that actually payed them fairly well, unlike these 'new jobs' that Bush has claimed to create that would barely pay for a person's Ramen noodles. It'd actually be cheaper for that one person to just go on welfare.

But anyway, I wanted to draw attention to the reasons that many conservatives around here(I live in Kansas, so there's no shortage) dislike Clinton are A) He downsized the military and B) He had sexual relations with a woman.

To refute the first point, the opposite thing to do, which would be to improve the military, will only lead down the slippery slope back to another arms race as industrialized countries around the world, fearful of terrorism and unwilling to cooperate with one another(America is especially guilty of this), spend billions of dollars increasing the sizes of their respective militaries, investing in research and development of 21st century military technology that will only get more and more dangerous. My alternative? Improve (or, as a matter of fact, ESTABLISH) international cooperation in the sharing of intelligence concerning known terrorist groups such as al-Qaida.

For the second point, I have nothing that so-called 'sophisticated' individuals would accept since they cling to cold, hard, logic as if it were straight from 'God'(which many seem to have already convinced themselves that this is so). But if we as a people are willing to resort to judging people that still performed to the best of their ability to improve on our domestic shortcomings, despite the fact that he wasn't even going to be running for another term, far outweighs such a really insignificant love affair(And for the conservatives in the audience, though I suspect you're not going to 'soil' yourselves in this 'grotesque, liberal den', the difference between Bill Clinton and George Bush is that Bush wasn't gettin' none on the side in office and he still phuqed things up in the name of 'democracy').

Really? Clinton passed the DOMA and Don't Ask Don't Tell bullshit, I can't imagine Kerry supporting something like that. Hell, I get the feeling Kerry would support gay marriage if it wasn't political suicide to do so. I don't have much else I'm afraid. What social stances was Clinton more liberal on? Abortion? Capital punishment?

Could you see Kerry sparking up a joint? :p

Could you see Kerry sparking up a joint? :p
He's a former war protester, friends with hippies...I'm sure he has in his youth. ;)

Although, I think he wouldn't make a good hippy anymore. Too uptight. He really ought to burn on national TV the day he gets marijuana decriminalized. :D

Seriously. How, by any stretch of the imagination can you compare the job Clinton did, even with an antagonistic Congress, with the utter failure in EVERYTHING Bush has been.

Reality, meet Kwangistar. Kwangistar, meet Reality. I believe you've never met before.
He didn't try to compare Kerry or Clinton to Bush. He just said they both suck. Bush wasn't even mentioned until you brought him up.

Well what about the Econemy? we wernt ONE DOLLAR IN DEBT. now we are...What??? a TRILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT!?!?!?! Wow, bush is INCREDIBLE, he is the first president to accomplish such a feat! As a matter of fact, i believe i would vote in a mass murderer over bush! :sniper:
Wrong. The US Government debt was still at record levels throughout much of the Clinton administration. It just wasn't increasing like it is now.

Edit : Actually, during a lot of the time it was increasing, just not at anywhere near the current rate.

*Slaps forehead*
Forgot we're not all Americans here. :D
May we one day reach the glorious liberated socialized Europe (I'm not being sarcastic). Prostitution, weed, gay marriage...America has a long way to go to real freedom.

Sure your not. weed is only legal in some corrupt countrys like Amsterdam and Holland.

Kerry. Clinton was a centrist mainstream Dem. Kerry is a true liberal, he just pretends to be moderate.
Yeah, everyone loves a poser.

Yeah, everyone loves a poser.
I've seen worse.

Sure your not. weed is only legal in some corrupt countrys like Amsterdam and Holland.
Eventually Canada and the rest of Europe will get around to it. Anyhow, the American Pot Party has officially endorsed Kerry.

Just posting this to get the poll back to the front pages.

"liberal" and "conservative" are just labels. True liberals are libertarians and conservatives are centrists (opposed to radical change). Democrats are mostly progressive, while Republicans are reactionary.

Us democrats are progressive. Isn't reactionary exactly what Bush is scared that Kerry will be?
Bush said that Kerry will wait till after we are attacked to strike back ala 9/11 we attacked Taliban in Afganistan.
More justified a war to be sure. Whole world on our side.

So that means republicans are against themselves? That makes no sense!


Clinton was a flip flopper as was Gore if you didn't know.

Flip floppers are those who are moderate. To change your stance is a good thing.

Kerry does sound like he will do better than Clinton. He has Clinton on his side after all :)

I like Clinton better than Kerry, but I like Edwards better than Gore.