NationStates Jolt Archive


Do aliens exist?

DemonLordEnigma
25-10-2004, 06:06
I was talking to Nianacio earlier on the godmodding topic about contacting more advanced races from other planets. I was using it mainly as an example of how unrealistic the not accepting of space travelling nations is (a counter to his standard of realism for accepting nations) by using an example of aliens accidentally running across Earth and comparing it to the Europeans running across the Americas (though, only as an example of one reason it might happen). His reply to the idea of more advanced races in the universe? They don't exist.

Personally, I'm wondering how that is reasonable to accept. Maybe it is and I'm just too much of a scifi fan. Or maybe it isn't and is entirely unrealistic. So, your viewpoints on this? Because, personally, I doubt it is possible for humanity to be alone or the most advanced race.
La Terra di Liberta
25-10-2004, 06:12
I believe they exist only because the universe is so big and it would be a waste to have nothing but our solar system if there was only life on earth, and not even intellegent life for that matter. :D
The God King Eru-sama
25-10-2004, 06:18
Seeing as there exist millions of galaxies and billions of stars within each one, it certainly seems like a reasonable prospect.
Nation of Fortune
25-10-2004, 06:18
I believe they exist only because the universe is so big and it would be a waste to have naything but our solar system if there was only life on earth, and not even intellegent life for that matter. :D
that is just about how I feel but for different reasons, i think that we aren't as unique as we make ourselves out to be, it has nothing to do with space, that would kind of be like one nation in this game
La Roue de Fortune
25-10-2004, 06:47
Depends on what you mean by "alien." There are theories that aliens are what the Bible refers to as angels. They're not necessarily physical beings from another planet, but rather ethereal beings from other spheres, dimensions if you will, of existance.
I don't actively believe in them, but if their existance came to light, I wouldn't be surprised either.
Free Trading People
25-10-2004, 07:01
i think it's more like billions of Galaxys and trillions of stars and, er more than trillians of planets...
Lunatic Goofballs
25-10-2004, 07:09
I used to think that sometimes, when I was not looking, that aliens stuffed Hostess Cupcakes into my shorts. Then I realized it was just me. :p
Spookistan and Jakalah
25-10-2004, 07:10
Considering that Earth had the right conditions for life to appear, and that it has only arisen once, and also that in billions of years intelligent life has only emerged a single time, I would opine that the odds of intelligent life arising on other planets is exceedingly low, even when compared to the numbers of stars and planets.
Lunatic Goofballs
25-10-2004, 07:12
Considering that Earth had the right conditions for life to appear, and that it has only arisen once, and also that in billions of years intelligent life has only emerged a single time, I would opine that the odds of intelligent life arising on other planets is exceedingly low, even when compared to the numbers of stars and planets.

The thing is that we only have a limited number of planets in our sampling.

Nine to be exact. So we know the odds of a planet developing life are about 1 in 9.

Or so. :)
Kryozerkia
25-10-2004, 07:14
Uh...aliens you say... *shuffles to the side and shoves something under her bed* no, they don't exist!
Spookistan and Jakalah
25-10-2004, 07:16
The thing is that we only have a limited number of planets in our sampling.

Nine to be exact. So we know the odds of a planet developing life are about 1 in 9.

Or so. :)

I wasn't talking about the odds of a planet giving rise to life. I was talking about the odds of a planet which is able to give rise to life giving rise to life. How many little puddles or chunks of templating clay do you think are, or have been, on the surface of the earth. I think the fact that the earth gave rise to a single line of life--and not two, or two billion, although it was clearly capable of letting life come into being--is pretty telling.
Iztatepopotla
25-10-2004, 07:16
Considering that Earth had the right conditions for life to appear, and that it has only arisen once, and also that in billions of years intelligent life has only emerged a single time, I would opine that the odds of intelligent life arising on other planets is exceedingly low, even when compared to the numbers of stars and planets.
And how many times should it have appeared? I'd say only once is enough. As for intelligence, although humans are seemingly the most intelligent and technologically advanced species on this planet, some of the other species, like chimps, dolphins and elephants are not far behind (except on using technology).

The building blocks of life are widespread in the universe. Chances are that life has taken hold in more than one planet. The problem then becomes one of developing intelligence, then technology and then the question on whether the speed of light is really an impassable barrier.
Iztatepopotla
25-10-2004, 07:18
I wasn't talking about the odds of a planet giving rise to life. I was talking about the odds of a planet which is able to give rise to life giving rise to life. How many little puddles or chunks of templating clay do you think are, or have been, on the surface of the earth. I think the fact that the earth gave rise to a single line of life--and not two, or two billion, although it was clearly capable of letting life come into being--is pretty telling.
Actually, it was DNA, plus mytochondrial DNA, plus RNA. 3 lines of life. That we know of, there might have been more that lost out to the more chemically efficient trio.
Goed
25-10-2004, 07:23
All I can say is this:

If superior beings visited us, we'd know by their laughter.
Lunatic Goofballs
25-10-2004, 07:23
I wasn't talking about the odds of a planet giving rise to life. I was talking about the odds of a planet which is able to give rise to life giving rise to life. How many little puddles or chunks of templating clay do you think are, or have been, on the surface of the earth. I think the fact that the earth gave rise to a single line of life--and not two, or two billion, although it was clearly capable of letting life come into being--is pretty telling.

*blink* What makes you think Earth didn't? Do you know how limited our fossil evidence is of the cellular beginnings of life on Earth are? What I know now is that there are more than a million different species of insects alone on Earth. ANd scientists estimate for every species of insect that has been discovered, there is one that hasn't. And that's just the insects!!

Considering the diversity that has arisen from one string of life, I'd say that one is plenty.
Spookistan and Jakalah
25-10-2004, 07:25
Actually, it was DNA, plus mytochondrial DNA, plus RNA. 3 lines of life. That we know of, there might have been more that lost out to the more chemically efficient trio.

I have not seen any evidence that the three, especially DNA and mitochondrial DNA, arose separately and then came together. I would tend to assume that they had all arisen from a single source.
Iztatepopotla
25-10-2004, 07:29
I have not seen any evidence that the three, especially DNA and mitochondrial DNA, arose separately and then came together. I would tend to assume that they had all arisen from a single source.
It's equally possible that DNA arose first and mDNA and RNA developed later along with the cell, or that mDNA, RNA and DNA formed separately and then developed a symbiotic relationship. Unfortunately to go that far out in time is very very difficult.

Same as what other self-replicating proteins might have been creted but never got a chance to develop.
Lunatic Goofballs
25-10-2004, 07:30
Explain the evolution of the virus. :)
Spookistan and Jakalah
25-10-2004, 07:33
*blink* What makes you think Earth didn't? Do you know how limited our fossil evidence is of the cellular beginnings of life on Earth are? What I know now is that there are more than a million different species of insects alone on Earth. ANd scientists estimate for every species of insect that has been discovered, there is one that hasn't. And that's just the insects!!

Considering the diversity that has arisen from one string of life, I'd say that one is plenty.

Let me be honest here: I haven't looked at the evidence either way, but I would assume that two origins of life would be pretty big news. Since I haven't seen that big news, I am assuming that there is a single source of life on earth. If that is true, then any other sources of life on earth are irrelevant--they have clearly not produced intelligent life.

I am aware of the incompleteness of the fossil record, and of the massive diversity in the beetle world. You claim that this beetle diversity is evidence that one source of life is enough. Enough for what? Enough to create intelligent life on another planet? I say that since the primordeal earth was probably good enough to produce two lines of life, or more, and since it didn't, that the odds of life arising on a planet even where conditions existed which would allow the emergence of life are slim.
Lunatic Goofballs
25-10-2004, 07:38
Let me be honest here: I haven't looked at the evidence either way, but I would assume that two origins of life would be pretty big news. Since I haven't seen that big news, I am assuming that there is a single source of life on earth. If that is true, then any other sources of life on earth are irrelevant--they have clearly not produced intelligent life.

I am aware of the incompleteness of the fossil record, and of the massive diversity in the beetle world. You claim that this beetle diversity is evidence that one source of life is enough. Enough for what? Enough to create intelligent life on another planet? I say that since the primordeal earth was probably good enough to produce two lines of life, or more, and since it didn't, that the odds of life arising on a planet even where conditions existed which would allow the emergence of life are slim.

Understand that life on Earth was also shaped by cataclysm. The primates didn't rise as the dominant life form on the planet because they were superior. They rose because the primate-like mammals they descended from were the only survivors in large number of whatever cataclysm(meteor strike?) that wiped out several other dominant species. There is no knowing how many forms of intelligent life could rise from a single-celled beginning.

However, I think the answer will always be one. Because even if multiple forms of intelligen life began to rise to prominence, only one would make it to the written language point. *nod*
Good Neighbour
25-10-2004, 07:39
Let me be honest here: I haven't looked at the evidence either way, but I would assume that two origins of life would be pretty big news. Since I haven't seen that big news, I am assuming that there is a single source of life on earth. If that is true, then any other sources of life on earth are irrelevant--they have clearly not produced intelligent life.

I am aware of the incompleteness of the fossil record, and of the massive diversity in the beetle world. You claim that this beetle diversity is evidence that one source of life is enough. Enough for what? Enough to create intelligent life on another planet? I say that since the primordeal earth was probably good enough to produce two lines of life, or more, and since it didn't, that the odds of life arising on a planet even where conditions existed which would allow the emergence of life are slim.

You and many others are giving too much credit to human knowledge.
All our "rules" and "mathematical thruths" and "physics" are based on theories that use them selvs as a proof to confirm them selvs.
To me that is building up a knowhow that really doesn't exist. We assume, we don't know.
Given this, almost everything is possible.
So, yes, Aliens (in any kind of form) could exist.
Spookistan and Jakalah
25-10-2004, 07:43
My Good Neighbour: Science has (ideally) one main credo for establishing truth--

"I'll believe it when I see it".

I'm not saying aliens cannot exist, I'm just saying that I see no reason to believe in them when we have zero evidence, and, in my mind, the odds are stacked against 'em.
JRV
25-10-2004, 07:50
I believe aliens exist, because my neighbour is one.
Good Neighbour
25-10-2004, 07:54
And I am saying that science (although I like science very much) is many time denying evidence for the sake of logics and prewritten rules... many time just becouse a too big egotrip of a scientist doesn't want to axcept he thought wrong in the first place.

So, I am not saying that there are evidence of ET lifes (of anykind), but I am very skeptical when it comes to "the start of life" theories, as it is clearer and clearer that we know very little about the start of the universe or the start of earth for that matter. The more we look for the truth the more we don't see it. All the Big Bang thing is falling apart. All the distance measuring systems we have been using (in space) are not working.
We know so little that I don't feel like excluding anything.
Mathematics are everything but certain.
Of course... 2+2 is 4 but that is not the mathematics I am talking about.
SR
25-10-2004, 08:12
Odds are stacked against them?
Odds ARE WITH THEM. The very idea that there is no other planet capable of supporting life even in our own arm of the galaxy is insane. Magnify that by looking at our galaxy, our local group, then the universe. How can only one planet be capable of supporting life? Granted that the ratio of lifeless hostile planets is probably higher than those capable of supporting life (and probably do), but even so they have a high probability of existing.

However, I doubt that they have visited our local solar system, or Earth. They'd have to know about us for ages, then actually make the trip here from where ever they are, and depending on that, they could be lightyears away...
Iraqi Oil Fields
25-10-2004, 08:13
Aliens exist. They could be simple creatures or they could be arguing this very point right now on their own form of internet.
JRV
25-10-2004, 08:19
There may be more evidence for Extra Terrestrials than one might think, at least in a sense. We are pretty sure now that the Martian meteorite (dryly named ALH 84001) found in Antarctica awhile back contained microbes - microbes of which likely arrived on Earth with the meteroite. Though primitive, it's life non the less.
Buben
25-10-2004, 08:40
Odds are stacked against them?
Odds ARE WITH THEM. The very idea that there is no other planet capable of supporting life even in our own arm of the galaxy is insane.

i agree, and it's belived alien forms of life, live near volcanic vents under whats belived to be a ocean on a moon from jupitur.(cant recall moon name) Anyways at the very least there like shrimps or something, who knows till we go there!
BackwoodsSquatches
25-10-2004, 08:42
Backwoodssquatches sure-fire mathematical proof of extra-terrestial life.

In the Milky Way, there are approximately 250 billion stars.

Lets suppose that 0.01 percent of those stars have a planetary system orbiting them.
That leaves 250,000,000 stars with planets around them.

Out of that number, lets say that 0.01 percent of those planets have atmospheric conditions that are capable of sustaining life as we know it.
That leaves us with a total of 2,500,000 with life on it.

Now, out of that number, lets say that only 0.01 percent of THOSE planets, have lifeforms evolved enough to achieve interstellar travel.

This leaves 25,000 planets even capable of reaching earth.

Now, lets go even further.

Out of that twentyfive thousand, lets say that 0.01 percent of that number
have indeed come here.

That leaves 250.
Iraqi Oil Fields
25-10-2004, 08:45
We may never go there, the distances are too far.
The Kingdom of Mayhem
25-10-2004, 08:51
I think there almost certainly has to alien life somewhere else in the universe. The question should be, is it possible for these aliens to travel to other solar systems? And, if that is possible, what are the odds of these beings coming across our planet?

One argument for aliens coming to Earth is that we have know idea if the limitations we have here are universal. Perhaps on other planets there exists some fuel source that allows ships to travel faster than the speed of light. We have no way to know. I personally think anything is possible.


- Professor Mayhem, Ruler of the Kingdom of Mayhem
Helioterra
25-10-2004, 09:51
All I can say is this:

If superior beings visited us, we'd know by their laughter.
Maybe they are laughnig at this very moment but in 5th dimension....hmm...
Halva
25-10-2004, 12:58
You and many others are giving too much credit to human knowledge.
All our "rules" and "mathematical thruths" and "physics" are based on theories that use them selvs as a proof to confirm them selvs.
To me that is building up a knowhow that really doesn't exist. We assume, we don't know.
Given this, almost everything is possible.
So, yes, Aliens (in any kind of form) could exist.

ah, no, science and mathematics do not work like that. In fact, it is taught in logic that a circular proof (using a theory to prove itself) is no proof at all and will not be accepted by scientists.

I understand that if someone does not have a full knowledge of a proof, it may look like it is used to prove itself, but this is not the case.

as for whether intelligent/otherwise aliens exist, I would say that due to the immense size of the universe, the chances are they do. from the same premise (size of the universe) it is also equally likely that they will never stumble onto us either through accident or intent, nor will we find them.
Legless Pirates
25-10-2004, 13:01
It would be a total anticlimax if (by pure chance) there is/was/will be no other life except on Earth
Snub Nose 38
25-10-2004, 13:04
I certainly do.
LinkinParker
25-10-2004, 13:07
Yes, if you mean illegal aliens. :D
Verdant Circles
25-10-2004, 13:46
A very interesting and deeply debatable topic, gentlemen.

I, for one, would have to say that there is a distinct possibility that other forms of life exist out there in the universe.

Whether we would recognise it as life is another question that I don't think's been consider in this thread so far (along with the question of whether they've developed to a level we would consider 'intelligent').

Whether they give rise to a level of technology that allows them to detect other planetary civilisations, communicate with them or travel to visit them is another matter entirely (in tandem with the question of if the odds are sufficiently good that an 'intelligent' civilisation survives its own technology long enough to find someone else).

In general terms tho', there do seem to be two conflicting forces at work in the universe; there is entropy (wherein there is a natural tendency for matter to degrade) and there is life (which seems to be an organising principle of certain organic molecules).

In other words, it would appear that there are 'natural laws' which mean that if certain things come together in certain ways then you have the correct chemical ingredients for life. Whether that is enough for something to actually become alive is a vastly different discourse :D.
Willamena
25-10-2004, 13:48
I think a more interesting question is: Is intelligent life a natural by-product of our life-form's evolution?

If so, then if there is intelligent life elsewhere, do they necessarily look like us?
Helioterra
25-10-2004, 13:57
In general terms tho', there do seem to be two conflicting forces at work in the universe; there is entropy (wherein there is a natural tendency for matter to degrade) and there is life (which seems to be an organising principle of certain organic molecules).
.
The second law of thermodynamics has a different status than that of other laws of science, because it doesn't always hold, just in the vast majority of cases. Entropy and life are not actually conflicting forces at all. If I wouldn't be in a hurry I would provide links myself but I'm sure you'll be able to find several articles on the issue yourself. If I remember correctly Hawking has explained it quite clearly on A brief history of time.
LinkinParker2
25-10-2004, 13:59
do they necessarily look like us?

It depends on their environment.

Also, we wouldn't have any idea about aliens if they didn't exist.
Gaar
25-10-2004, 13:59
frankly, it seems a bit arrogant to say there is no life in the universe. to say 'life could only coem from earth' is essentially ignoring the fact that wer surrounded by a pretty damn big universe.
Battery Charger
25-10-2004, 14:00
Considering that Earth had the right conditions for life to appear, and that it has only arisen once, and also that in billions of years intelligent life has only emerged a single time, I would opine that the odds of intelligent life arising on other planets is exceedingly low, even when compared to the numbers of stars and planets.

Do you actually know that life has only arisen once on Earth? How could you possibly tell today whether the same process occured million times or just once. As far as intelligent life is concerned, you don't know that either. Then there's always the possibility that Earth life was seeded from somewhere else anyway.
Ehricia
25-10-2004, 14:28
Aliens(if pacifist) are always welcome in my proud yet humble nation :)
Utracia
25-10-2004, 14:45
Life elsewhere in the universe is obviously possible. The idea that lightning would strike only on our puny planet and nowhere else sounds pretty arogant to me. Wouldn't it be a waste of all that space? The idea of other life has been laughed at thanks to the X-Files(no offence, great show!) but the idea is certainly there along with space travel. Only question is if you believe if a hostile alien race could reach such technological superiority before destroying themselves?

Let's see if we can get into space without killing each other first.
MissDefied
25-10-2004, 14:48
We are the Martians.
Luciferius
25-10-2004, 15:13
Here is the knowledge you desire: http://www.geocities.com/llfptfu/llf2.html

Join the Luciferian Liberation Front!
Sukafitz
25-10-2004, 15:16
I don't think you realize just how unique our planet is.

For life to exist; the planet must orbit around a star in a perfect orbit, at the right distance to allow the sun to not cook it or allow it to freeze.

It has to spin not too fast and not too slow to allow for the sustainable weather conditions and gravity.

The planet would need a balanced atmosphere with the right combination of gases for plants & animals to survive.

Then you have to consider that intelligent life on our planet is still very young in comparison to the rest of the world. If there was intelligent life out there, it would also have to exist at the same time as we do for us to make contact.

There are many elements of our world that makes it fragile, and the fragility is what makes us unique.
Good Neighbour
25-10-2004, 15:31
I don't think you realize just how unique our planet is.

For life to exist; the planet must orbit around a star in a perfect orbit, at the right distance to allow the sun to not cook it or allow it to freeze.

It has to spin not too fast and not too slow to allow for the sustainable weather conditions and gravity.

The planet would need a balanced atmosphere with the right combination of gases for plants & animals to survive.

Then you have to consider that intelligent life on our planet is still very young in comparison to the rest of the world. If there was intelligent life out there, it would also have to exist at the same time as we do for us to make contact.

There are many elements of our world that makes it fragile, and the fragility is what makes us unique.

Well well, let 's see...
You seem to me one of those that believe that mankind is the only possible intelligent life.
Earth is unique (maybe) and as that can create only the life that we know today (included animals and vegetables). But onther planet could create other kind of life, for what we know. As somebody said before, we could eaven get by another life form in space without recognize it as a life form.
We base all our knowledge on to our knowledge. We are limited in the understanding... actually I bilieve it is arrogant to call our selfs as intelligent, but that would create another loooong debate so we'll leave it there for now.
And anyway, if earth is so special then the solar system should be special... but our limited knowlege tell us that MAYBE there are millions of same systems around in the universe... so maybe earth is not so unique after all... what you say?
Illich Jackal
25-10-2004, 15:34
I think there almost certainly has to alien life somewhere else in the universe. The question should be, is it possible for these aliens to travel to other solar systems? And, if that is possible, what are the odds of these beings coming across our planet?

One argument for aliens coming to Earth is that we have know idea if the limitations we have here are universal. Perhaps on other planets there exists some fuel source that allows ships to travel faster than the speed of light. We have no way to know. I personally think anything is possible.


- Professor Mayhem, Ruler of the Kingdom of Mayhem

I also believe there might be life on other planets, but i don't believe they, providing they are 'advanced', will ever come to us. Everything that is 'close' to earth has no 'advanced' life and everything that is further away is just too far away considering the light speed is the universal speedlimit (you can't even reach it).
Sukafitz
25-10-2004, 15:47
Well well, let 's see...
You seem to me one of those that believe that mankind is the only possible intelligent life.
Earth is unique (maybe) and as that can create only the life that we know today (included animals and vegetables). But onther planet could create other kind of life, for what we know. As somebody said before, we could eaven get by another life form in space without recognize it as a life form.
We base all our knowledge on to our knowledge. We are limited in the understanding... actually I bilieve it is arrogant to call our selfs as intelligent, but that would create another loooong debate so we'll leave it there for now.
And anyway, if earth is so special then the solar system should be special... but our limited knowlege tell us that MAYBE there are millions of same systems around in the universe... so maybe earth is not so unique after all... what you say?

So basically your looking for a planet where they breathe poison and shit arcade coins.
Quorm
25-10-2004, 15:55
Considering that Earth had the right conditions for life to appear, and that it has only arisen once, and also that in billions of years intelligent life has only emerged a single time, I would opine that the odds of intelligent life arising on other planets is exceedingly low, even when compared to the numbers of stars and planets.

I know I'm dragging this quote from a ways back, but noone's given an answer I liked, so here's mine.

I think that we would expect life to arise only once on any given planet, because once life arises it changes the conditions on the planet so drastically that it may no longer be suitable for evolving new life. I remember from some bioogy class long ago that the oxygen in our atmosphere exists because of single celled organisms that evolved a long time ago, and that the creation of this oxygen killed off the majority of other life forms on the planet because oxygen is so chemically active. Given that, it is entirely possible that dozens of strains of life evolved on earth, but that we're down to our own general type of life because the others died out. We really don't have much way of knowing.
Demented Hamsters
25-10-2004, 15:55
I don't think you realize just how unique our planet is.

For life to exist; the planet must orbit around a star in a perfect orbit, at the right distance to allow the sun to not cook it or allow it to freeze.

It has to spin not too fast and not too slow to allow for the sustainable weather conditions and gravity.

The planet would need a balanced atmosphere with the right combination of gases for plants & animals to survive.

Then you have to consider that intelligent life on our planet is still very young in comparison to the rest of the world. If there was intelligent life out there, it would also have to exist at the same time as we do for us to make contact.

There are many elements of our world that makes it fragile, and the fragility is what makes us unique.
But you're missing the point that, while there needs to be a great deal of luck (right star, right position, right size planet, right position in the galaxy etc), the fact there is a mind-staggering number of stars and planets out there, statistically, life has obviously arisen elsewhere.
People get confused between statistical probability and possibility.
As an example, the chance of winning the Lottery is so small, that it is statistically insignificant. A 1 in 40 million chance is basically zero. Yet someone usually does win each week. Statistically improbable, but because so many tickets are bought each week, it becomes likely.

I remember in a book written by Carl Sagan went into great detail about this. He held the strong belief that there was intelligent life out there, but he was also a realist in that we will probably never contact any.
If we assume they had developed some sort of special drive that allowed them to visit a star anywhere in the galaxy within a year and return (which in itself is unlikely), how many similar sun-like stars are there in this galaxy? 100 Billion? So the chance of them visiting us is 1 in 100 billion. If they had 1 million space ships like this (which would use up such a massive amount resources as again be unlikely), we're still talking 100 000 years before they get here - by which time they're probably wiped themselves out.
So no luck being visited by aliens then.
As for contacting them via radio waves. We've had radio signals for 100 years, so that means just 100 light years radius from us know we exist. If someone picks it up now, it'll be 100 years before we know about it.
There's also the problem of will they be able to detect us. Using our history as an example of a typical civilisation evolving up to having radio technology (and we have to use ourselves, because we have no-one else to use for comparison), it took 3 miilion years to go for Hominid to Homo Sapien and then another 20 000 years for our society to sufficiently develop to the point of having radios. Then another 60 or so years before we started looking for it ourselves in outer space. We've only been looking for the last 30, 35 years.

So, if a civilisation is 100 years behind us, technologically (hell, even 50 years!), they could be being bombarded by our radio signals and never know(likewise, we could have been for the last 3 million years and never knew it). If they 1000 years behind, by the time they reach the radio-SETI stage, we might have wiped ourselves out and be back in the middle-ages stage again. Or have advanced so far, we no longer use radio signals, but something else completely different. In other words, SETI is based on a very miniscule window of opportunity for both searching and recieving alien cultures.
Guffingford
25-10-2004, 15:59
The chance there's life on another planet somewhere else in the universe is quite high, but we're talking about bacteria here and other one celled species. Intelligent life compared to humans is so incredibly rare... And that they come here in UFO's is even bigger nonsense.

Fun fact: there are more stars than there are sand grains on our entire planet.
Sukafitz
25-10-2004, 16:07
But you're missing the point that, while there needs to be a great deal of luck (right star, right position, right size planet, right position in the galaxy etc), the fact there is a mind-staggering number of stars and planets out there, statistically, life has obviously arisen elsewhere.
People get confused between statistical probability and possibility.
As an example, the chance of winning the Lottery is so small, that it is statistically insignificant. A 1 in 40 million chance is basically zero. Yet someone usually does win each week. Statistically improbable, but because so many tickets are bought each week, it becomes likely.

I remember in a book written by Carl Sagan went into great detail about this. He held the strong belief that there was intelligent life out there, but he was also a realist in that we will probably never contact any.
If we assume they had developed some sort of special drive that allowed them to visit a star anywhere in the galaxy within a year and return (which in itself is unlikely), how many similar sun-like stars are there in this galaxy? 100 Billion? So the chance of them visiting us is 1 in 100 billion. If they had 1 million space ships like this (which would use up such a massive amount resources as again be unlikely), we're still talking 100 000 years before they get here - by which time they're probably wiped themselves out.
So no luck being visited by aliens then.
As for contacting them via radio waves. We've had radio signals for 100 years, so that means just 100 light years radius from us know we exist. If someone picks it up now, it'll be 100 years before we know about it.
There's also the problem of will they be able to detect us. Using our history as an example of a typical civilisation evolving up to having radio technology (and we have to use ourselves, because we have no-one else to use for comparison), it took 3 miilion years to go for Hominid to Homo Sapien and then another 20 000 years for our society to sufficiently develop to the point of having radios. Then another 60 or so years before we started looking for it ourselves in outer space. We've only been looking for the last 30, 35 years.

So, if a civilisation is 100 years behind us, technologically (hell, even 50 years!), they could be being bombarded by our radio signals and never know(likewise, we could have been for the last 3 million years and never knew it). If they 1000 years behind, by the time they reach the radio-SETI stage, we might have wiped ourselves out and be back in the middle-ages stage again. Or have advanced so far, we no longer use radio signals, but something else completely different. In other words, SETI is based on a very miniscule window of opportunity for both searching and recieving alien cultures.

I'm not doubting that there is life out there, we found some evidence of life on Mars with bacteria - but the topic is about aliens, and some people are suggesting that there is intelligent life out there. We send out signals but what if we're sending out signals to planets where there's currently only flowers.

I'm pointing out considerations of the qualities needed to support life, that we're looking for intelligent life, and suggesting that intelligence would need to exist at the same time we do. In the quadzillions of tri-mega-nillions of years out in the universe life only exists for a short time.
New Scott-land
25-10-2004, 16:13
Well...

I suspect 'life' is out there somewhere. In fact, wasn't there some form of basic bacteria or something that came from Mars a while back? I can't remember entirely, but I thought so.

Anyways, whether or not intelligent life exists is entirely up to debate, and currently I am at the view point that it does not.

Of course, I'm a literalist, so nothing short of them landing, me seeing them, meeting them, and all that would convince me.

Still, Hopefully sometime in the future, we'll begin to expand to other planets. And who knows, maybe we will find something out there. Certainly not as populous as 'Star Trek' or Wars might suggest, but chances are there might be someone out there.

Then again, perhaps we're the advanced race eh? If we go flying to other stars, and systems, perhaps some other weird race may look up and say hey what the frick is that flying nose in the sky.

Final point, All we have to do is stick around for an ungodly long time and we might eventually meet someone. But I doubt in our life time.
Quorm
25-10-2004, 16:20
The chance there's life on another planet somewhere else in the universe is quite high, but we're talking about bacteria here and other one celled species. Intelligent life compared to humans is so incredibly rare... And that they come here in UFO's is even bigger nonsense.

Fun fact: there are more stars than there are sand grains on our entire planet.

We really don't know how rare intelligent life is. On the one planet we know supports life - earth - there is intelligent life. Obviously this isn't enough evidence to say that intelligent life is common, but it could be. Looking at our own planet, it's possible we're not the only intelligent life to arise here. I've heard arguments that neanderthals were in fact more intelligent than humans. For that matter, if we weren't around using up all the resources, who can say another life form couldn't become as intelligent. I can imagine dolphins getting pretty smart in a few hundred thousand years, and that's not much time really. I have to agree about the UFOs though. If aliens were visiting us I think that there would be a little more solid evidence.
The Phoenix Milita
25-10-2004, 16:26
http://www.expage.com/ufosecrets

aliens are real!!!!!
Willamena
25-10-2004, 16:36
Also, we wouldn't have any idea about aliens if they didn't exist.
Does the same go for unicorns?
Whest and Kscul
25-10-2004, 16:39
I'll say there is intelligent life, haviing existed long before humans and going to exist long after humans.

There is such a vast quantity of stars, it's impossible not to have intelligent life. Just look at what we can already see; Tau Ceti, Alpha Centauri A, Alpha Centauri B, Epsilon Indi. All of these stars are either slightly larger or slightly smaller than our sun... Would it be blatantly incorrect to assume that there might be life on one of these star's planets? And even so, these are just stars that are within 12 light years of our Sun. Our universe extends almost infintely, and is expanding...

As well, Sukafitz said that our planet needs specific qualities. Yes, specific qualities for life that is similar to what we view as animals, plants, bacteria, etc. Many qaulities determine what intelligent life is like.

Exploring the Night Sky by Terence Dickinson shows us examples of possible planets that could sustain life. One planet has a gravity 1.5 times as strong as ours, the another has gravity only .5 times as strong. Observing the creatures on the planets, there are radical differences in climate, atmosphere, temperature. And YET; life still exists... hmm....
Utracia
25-10-2004, 17:16
I don't think you realize just how unique our planet is.

For life to exist; the planet must orbit around a star in a perfect orbit, at the right distance to allow the sun to not cook it or allow it to freeze.

It has to spin not too fast and not too slow to allow for the sustainable weather conditions and gravity.

The planet would need a balanced atmosphere with the right combination of gases for plants & animals to survive.

Then you have to consider that intelligent life on our planet is still very young in comparison to the rest of the world. If there was intelligent life out there, it would also have to exist at the same time as we do for us to make contact.

There are many elements of our world that makes it fragile, and the fragility is what makes us unique.

Who says all species need all these requirements? It is entirely possible for life to appear without needing as much warmth as we do or it's precise orbit or even needing to breath oxygen. What goes for one planet may not be the same for another.
Planta Genestae
25-10-2004, 17:20
No so get a life.
Sukafitz
25-10-2004, 17:36
Who says all species need all these requirements? It is entirely possible for life to appear without needing as much warmth as we do or it's precise orbit or even needing to breath oxygen. What goes for one planet may not be the same for another.

It would be a degree in temperature that does not freeze nor burn. It would be a mix in gases that will not fluctuate as the world beneath it uses it's ecosystem to sustain it like a biosphere. You need several precise elements to create a working ecology.

Basically your believing in a lifeform that could live on any other planet besides its own. It doesn't need food or drink or air. Your statement not only would mean it is possible for that alien to migrate to whatever planet it wants, but you want to alter the meaning of how life exists all together.
Daistallia 2104
25-10-2004, 17:57
Yes, if you mean illegal aliens. :D

As do legal ones. I should know, as I am one. I am required by Japanese law to carry an official ID known as a "Certificate of Alien Registration", and I go through the "Resident Alien" line at the immigration check at the airport.

As for extra-terrestrial life, it certainly exists, even if only temporarily, in the form of astronauts.

Extra-terrestrial life that hasn't been generated on earth is highly likely to exist, but not guarenteed.

Extra-terrestrial life that hasn't been generated on earth and is intelligent, ditto.

Extra-terrestrial life that hasn't been generated on earth, but has visited earth is highly unlikely.

Twilight Zone or X-File aliens are highly unlikely, to the point of it being fairly safe to say they don't exist.

H.G. Wells' Martians are so infintesimally likely, it is very safe to say they don't exist.
Daistallia 2104
25-10-2004, 18:00
frankly, it seems a bit arrogant to say there is no life in the universe.

Yes indeed. I'd say it would be darned ignorant to say that as well.
;)
Quorm
25-10-2004, 18:07
It would be a degree in temperature that does not freeze nor burn. It would be a mix in gases that will not fluctuate as the world beneath it uses it's ecosystem to sustain it like a biosphere. You need several precise elements to create a working ecology.

Basically your believing in a lifeform that could live on any other planet besides its own. It doesn't need food or drink or air. Your statement not only would mean it is possible for that alien to migrate to whatever planet it wants, but you want to alter the meaning of how life exists all together.

I should point out that before life evolved on earth there was almost no oxygen in the air. Probably life couldn't originate in an oxygen rich atmosphere at all. Most of the life that originally arose on this planet actually found oxygen poisonous. Obviously some things about all life will be universal. Any life will need some means of acquiring energy, and some means of procreating. Beyond a few basics, though, lifeforms don't necessarily have to be like us. There's no reason to believe that the conditions on earth are the only ones that support life, or are even the best for originating life. Some people theorize that life actually started on Mars, for what its worth. Besides, even on earth, we find lifeforms like those in the deep sea vents that need dramatically different conditions to survive. The point is that there's actually a fairly broad range of conditions that we know can support life, and a much broader range that may support life of a sort we haven't thought of. Obviously, if we found lifeforms in, say, a gas giant, they couldn't survive on earth anymore than we can survive on Jupiter. But they could still exist.
Heck Hell
25-10-2004, 20:04
When I was younger, one night I was so sleepy,
actually half assleep I dint want to get up,
I kept hearing this noise for at least a minute or two
over the house, two or three seperate times, that
sounded like some kind of engine, I never got up
to see what it was, the next moorning I heard
on the radio people calling in and reporting that
they had heard and seen a UFO, my own neighbours
said they had heard a noise that sounded like
some kind of engine, since that day I always wonder
if I missed a chance to see a real UFO.
LinkinParker
26-10-2004, 14:26
Does the same go for unicorns?
Probably yeah.
Unless some-one dropped an icecream on a horse and got a dyslexic guy to name it. :D