NationStates Jolt Archive

This will probably be one of the most pointless and geekiest questions ever asked. So, naturally, I brought it here. Here goes:

Full Out Tactical Space War: Andrew "Ender" Wiggin v. Grand Admiral Thrawn
Who wins?

Note: If you have no idea what I'm talking about, you should probably stop by your library and look up authors Timothy Zahn and Orson Scott Card. Your life will be better.

Depends whether or not Ender has Bean. If he does, then Ender wins. If not, Thrawn wins. Of course, Ender technically wins by default, since Thrawn came down with a bad case of dead.

Fine. Thrawn is alive in our scenario (because I said so, of course), and he has the Hand base, along with the Noghri (because I said so, damnit!). And, Ender has his entire jeesh. Ender does NOT have the MD Device.

So, now who wins?

Holy Crap, I have never even considered this!

Okay, I think Ender would win. They are perfectly equal in pure strategy and the ability to 'read' their opponents, but you also have to take into account the ability to read your own forces. Look at how Thrawn died, killed by his own bodyguard because he learned that the Empire had completely devestated his homeworld and made slaves of his people. The bodyguard learned this months before striking, he was able to keep his agenda hidden from Thrawn for all that time. Ender, on the other, knew and even loved his subordinates. Each one was a best friend, rather than merely a military asset. Thrawn might not have been a man to waste peoples lives needlessly, he didn't kill people for every tiny failure, but he did see people as resources to be used and, when necessary, tossed away without a second thought. Ender was willing to do the tossing, but he felt it. That makes all the difference.

Depends whether or not Ender has Bean. If he does, then Ender wins. If not, Thrawn wins. Of course, Ender technically wins by default, since Thrawn came down with a bad case of dead.

I've never read Ender's Game or any of those.

I will say that Thrawn is seven different flavours of awesome.

And he only lost because of dumb luck from the other side. That's ALL. If it wasn't for that, he would EASILY dominated.

And he only lost because of dumb luck from the other side. That's ALL. If it wasn't for that, he would EASILY dominated.

Uh....he lost because he was stabed by his Noghri bodyguard, Rukh, after Rukh and the rest of the Noghri learned of Thrawns deception. I see no 'luck' involved there.

Uh....he lost because he was stabed by his Noghri bodyguard, Rukh, after Rukh and the rest of the Noghri learned of Thrawns deception. I see no 'luck' involved there.

Yes, and how did they find OUT about his deception?

john crichton wins

Princess Leia, Chewbacca, and C-3PO went to....damnit, I can't remember the Noghri planet and, using the equipment of a decontamination droid showed that the Empire could have easily healed 5 times the amount of land than it had in the time that had expired. What's lucky about that? Well, yeah, I guess they were lucky that Leia is smart, but beyond that luck really isn't a factor.

All other things being equal, Ender. Without question. As skilled as both are in reading adversaries, and taking full advantage of the trust and skill of their subordinates, I think what sets Ender ahead is that Ender can be even more ruthless when the chips are down.

Pity his best years were behind him at age eleven. Imagine if he had stayed in military service. :eek:

Good God, I never would have thought of these two going head to head. So many possibilities for the battle!

You can argue either way on who would win. While both can read both their opponents and their own forces perfectly, Ender seems to be more intuitive and somewhat reactionary because of the nature of how he went into battles. Thrawn is much more calculating, using the least amount of force to rain down destruction on his targets. Both are perfect adversaries, so I have no idea on who would win.

Ender, Thrawn was more of a governor than a general, and if they get their own weapons there's no contest because any of Ender's ships could destroy a planet or a fleet with a single well place shot.

Oh, yea. Ender. I've read both, and I think that Ender could out smart Thrawn.

All Thrawn would have to do is study the artwork of your species, and he can find a flaw in your strategy.

Ender wins.

At least until Miles Naismith Vorkosigan somehow stumbles into the picture.

I say Thrawn because I don't know who Ender is. Don't hit me.


edit: Also, I like this trend of sci-fi threads.

I say Thrawn because I don't know who Ender is. Don't hit me.


edit: Also, I like this trend of sci-fi threads.

Ender Wiggin is the title character of the book, "Ender's Game" by Orson Scott Card. There is a whole series based off of it, but this is the original book.

w00t! Sciffy threads rock!

I haven't heard of Thrawn but from what I've jus read, I think Ender will win. Ender's game is Teh Coolest Book Ever. Well, with a few exceptions, but it's a really cool book. Unfortunately my local library inexplicably missed xenocide and children of the mind, not to mention shadow of the giant. :(

I've never read Ender's Game or any of those.

I will say that Thrawn is seven different flavours of awesome.

And he only lost because of dumb luck from the other side. That's ALL. If it wasn't for that, he would EASILY dominated.
I voted for Ender, despite never reading Ender's Game for a simple reason:
Thrawn was an idiot.
His grand plan for winning the war was to let an insane Jedi clone mindrape his troops, restarted the clone wars for troops even though what he really needed was ships, he shot his best tractor beam operator in an attempt to up efficiency, let a junior Jedi leave his ship, didn't even try to bribe the location of the Katana fleet out of Karrde....
Mind you, Zahn wrote a fine set of books around Thrawn!

Never read Ender's Game, but i'll keep it in mind for the next raid on the library.

So I voted Thrawn. Cause he's blue and stuff.

Amuro Ray > Ender or Thrawn

In the context of the thread, Ender Wiggin, hands down.

However, I would say Danlo wi Soli Ringess over both of them. Not a master strategist, but evolving into a sort-of god, has to count for something.

Ender, Thrawn was more of a governor than a general, and if they get their own weapons there's no contest because any of Ender's ships could destroy a planet or a fleet with a single well place shot.

Yes, but I already stated that Ender doesn't get Dr. Device. Other wise, you'd be correct.

Ender wins.

At least until Miles Naismith Vorkosigan somehow stumbles into the picture.


I've never heard of him. Who is he?

I voted for Ender, despite never reading Ender's Game for a simple reason:
Thrawn was an idiot.
His grand plan for winning the war was to let an insane Jedi clone mindrape his troops, restarted the clone wars for troops even though what he really needed was ships, he shot his best tractor beam operator in an attempt to up efficiency, let a junior Jedi leave his ship, didn't even try to bribe the location of the Katana fleet out of Karrde....
Mind you, Zahn wrote a fine set of books around Thrawn!

He didn't have to bribe Karrde; he knew Karrde would never tell him, and he had other, more cost effective means of finding the Katana fleet. As for having "an insane Jedi clone mindrape his troops", that strategy proved itself very impressive, almost a 40% overall increase in efficiency, according to Pellaeon.

Keep it coming, folks!

Let's give this thread a *bump* in the right direction...

Oh c'mon, don't any of you think Newtypes or Coordinators would be such better fighters (or at least Gundam pilots)?

Why would we, when this thread has absolutely nothing to do with them?

Ender doesn't need pseudo-magical powers to win!!!

All he needs is his brilliant mind. Thrawn needs weird and capricious Sith crud. All I care about is a real-ish SF where people can do what people can do, even if it is with non-existant technology. Besides, Thrawn isn't quite human. I don't non-humans with my destiny.

Thrawn would totally and completely anhilliate Ender.
Ender is just a sulky little kid, who we are told is a strategic genius but aren't shown because Orson Scott Card doesn't know how to write a genius. He may fancy himself as such, but he overrates his own intelligence and seriously oversimplifies military strategy.

Thrawn is, as someone else put it "seven different flavors of awesome."

Ender wins. He could also kick Vorkosigan's butt any day of the week. Pham Nuwen on the other hand...

I accidently voted Ender, but I have to say that GA Thrawn would own him as long as he had some peice of art done by him.

The crew from Callahan's would get them both psychically drunk, ending all hostilities. It would eventually devolve into a punning game of some sort, and then an interspecies orgy would break out.

To be fair, Ender had to face a competant band of militant aliens. All Thrawn really had to deal with were inbred Jedi idiots. In a campaign game I ran, Thrawn beat the Rebellion/New Republic forces hands down - bu then, in the Star Wars saga the Jedi have to win, no matter how Pythonesque the rationale.

Still, I always rather liked Thrawn. He was "fighting the good fight" after all. So he gets my sympathy vote.

Yes, but I already stated that Ender doesn't get Dr. Device. Other wise, you'd be correct.

To be honest I didn't actually read the post since it was so short I figured it just reiterated the title. With that said I still think Ender would win. Thrawn, while a brilliant military mind wasn't fighting a particularly challenging enemy. Like other people have said, he only lost to dumb luck. Thrawn spent his time fighting planets that couldn't defend themselves and a rag tag bunch of jedis and rebels. Thrawn knows how to run a huge army to control a large area, but his tactics are much weaker than Ender's. If you put them each in a simulator and ran them through simulations at every level of combat, from one-on-one all the way up to galactic battles Ender would win the first 75% and it would be close on the last 25% because Ender was both a tactical and a strategic commander. Also, Ender's enemy was much more difficult to overcome because of its hive mind. Finally, Ender is simply more adaptable than Thrawn. Thrawn, as someone already pointed out, was unable to reckognize the plotting of his bodyguard, and was entirely unsuspecting because he didn't get into the minds of others in the way that Ender did. Again, as someone else said, Ender was better able to get into the heads of those around him and was therefor better able to utilize their talents fully. Ender's ability to adapt to fit his surrounds and be as effective with any set of capable subbordinates gives him a massive advantage over Thrawn.

Of course, if it was just hand to hand combat between the two of them there wouldn't be much contest. It'd just be Thrawn with one hand on Ender's head holding him out of reach and punching him with the other.

Okay, people have a really screwed up view of Thrawns enemies. The New Republic, not the Rebel Alliance, controlled three fourths of the galaxy opposed to Thrawns one fourth. They have more people, more ships, and more technology. They had every single advantage over Thrawn except for two things, Thrawn had the cloning center in Mount Tantiss and the cloaking technology that proved oh-so-vital in the assault on Sluis Van and the siege of Coruscant.

So far people have been talking as if Thrawn was merely a big guy with a big stick fighting a smaller guy with no stick.

I still think Ender would win, but do give Thrawn the respect he deserves.

He didn't have to bribe Karrde; he knew Karrde would never tell him, and he had other, more cost effective means of finding the Katana fleet. As for having "an insane Jedi clone mindrape his troops", that strategy proved itself very impressive, almost a 40% overall increase in efficiency, according to Pellaeon.

Reread how Karrde reacted initally to Thrawn - he'd have folded in return for being given his ships and people back. He was a smuggler, who wanted to avoid ticking off the Empire.
Thrawn himself pointed out that troops who'd been 'enhanced' by Jedi were useless afterwards, and that this was why the Empire had lost at Endor. (Hmm, that's going to create some confusion in this thread).
To defeat Thrawn -
ask a decent art critic to find a set of paintings, sculptures etc that you'd be *likely* to want, and refuse to remove the ones you don't like. The set will be close enough (once Imperial Intelligence has IDed them) to make Thrawn think that you choose them, but ensure that when he predicts your actions he'll get them wrong.
Use a Sabacc deck to make major decisions. "Hmm, careful analysis suggests that the rebels will pick multiple possible targets, and then select one at random - bugger!"
Have undercover experts start a propoganda campaign amongst the techies "If you don't do well enough to get promoted, you won't get shot!" - this continues the process of the Empire disintegrating.
When ships crewed with clones attack, send out an alert, and beg for help from the local *Imperial* ships! This gives the older Captains (who hated the Clones, having fought them) an excuse to change sides.

Okay, people have a really screwed up view of Thrawns enemies. The New Republic, not the Rebel Alliance, controlled three fourths of the galaxy opposed to Thrawns one fourth. They have more people, more ships, and more technology. They had every single advantage over Thrawn except for two things,
Yes, the but the rebels were a ratbag crew of amateurs, with a leavening of Imperial deserters and a few geriatric veterans of the clone wars. The fact that they weren't casually wiped out marks the entire Empire as incompetent.

I have to give it to Ender. Thrawn (while good) controlled a few dozen ships of superior firepower against the New Republic in its birthing pains and still managed to lose. Ender controlled thousands of ships. Even w/o the doohicky, he's still tactically and strategically superior. Just look at those games they played.

Read what you just wrote: "the rebels were a ratbag crew of amateurs"

Thrawn did not fight the Rebel Alliance, he fought the New Republic which was a galaxy-spanning government that had brilliantly trained/experienced officers and brilliantly trained/experienced soldiers. It's like comparing the Colonial Army that fought in the Revolutionary War and the United States Army that fought in the War of 1812. The US Army might not have had a lot of time to expand and develope, but it was vastly superior to Colonial Army.

Learn to differentiate between the two.

Uh oh. I think there's gonna be a nerd slap-fight in here.

I think you're right.

Reread how Karrde reacted initally to Thrawn - he'd have folded in return for being given his ships and people back. He was a smuggler, who wanted to avoid ticking off the Empire.
Thrawn himself pointed out that troops who'd been 'enhanced' by Jedi were useless afterwards, and that this was why the Empire had lost at Endor. (Hmm, that's going to create some confusion in this thread).
To defeat Thrawn -
ask a decent art critic to find a set of paintings, sculptures etc that you'd be *likely* to want, and refuse to remove the ones you don't like. The set will be close enough (once Imperial Intelligence has IDed them) to make Thrawn think that you choose them, but ensure that when he predicts your actions he'll get them wrong.
Use a Sabacc deck to make major decisions. "Hmm, careful analysis suggests that the rebels will pick multiple possible targets, and then select one at random - bugger!"
Have undercover experts start a propoganda campaign amongst the techies "If you don't do well enough to get promoted, you won't get shot!" - this continues the process of the Empire disintegrating.
When ships crewed with clones attack, send out an alert, and beg for help from the local *Imperial* ships! This gives the older Captains (who hated the Clones, having fought them) an excuse to change sides.

Once again, you're misinterpreting Karrde's motives. Yes, he didn't want to tick off the Empire, but at that point, it was way too late. Thrawn was already bringing down the hammer (or was about to), so it would be ridiculous to say that Karrde would have worked with him. And, like I said before, the other crewman on the ship that found the Dark Force already knew where it was, and had already told Thrawn.

Also, Thrawn was the one who realized that the troops at Endor had been rendered useless by the loss of the Emperor. That was why he was so careful in using C'baoth at certain times, instead of a perpetual onslaught of Force enhancement.

As far as your campaign to destroy Thrawn from the inside, Thrawn would have seen it right away. Hard as they might try, simply giving him the "wrong artwork" and spreading rumors among his crew would do little but mildly irrate him, and force him to cut out a few rotten links.

Really, in the end, I think the NS forum wins for having exolred this to begin with.

I say Paul Atreides would own them all.

I say Paul Atreides would own them all.
And I say Amuro Ray, Char Aznable, Rau LeCreuset, and Kira Yamato own!

Admiral Akbar would kill them all. :(

Admiral Akbar would kill them all. :(

Unlikely ;). Akbar has not nearly the talent of Thrawn or Ender.

Nice try though. :)

And I say Amuro Ray, Char Aznable, Rau LeCreuset, and Kira Yamato own!

Amuro Ray has been mentioned twice now. Anyone feel like filling me in on who this guy is, along with the rest of this list?

Amuro Ray has been mentioned twice now. Anyone feel like filling me in on who this guy is, along with the rest of this list?
They are all characters from the various Gundam animes.

Amuro was the original Gundam pilot, and Char was the antagonist

Kira Yamato - pilot from Gundam SEED, LeCreuset is an antagonist too.

Admiral Akbar would kill them all. :(

Sorry, but not likely. Akbar is a great commander, I have nothing but respect for him, but he's just not up to their level.

Uh oh. I think there's gonna be a nerd slap-fight in here.
Absolutely! :D Remember people, no one's to enter the ring unless your pocket protector is firmly in place - we don't want someone getting hurt!

Ackbar is no Jan Dodonna.

Im SUCH a nerd.

Admiral Ackbar was a punk calamari who was sold into slavery and was rescued.
He got lucky at the Battle of Endor

FEAR MY GEEKDOM!

I say Paul Atreides would own them all.

Please. Paul wasn't a tactical genius at all. He was just deus ex machina. And that's cheating.

You have to understand that the Star Wars saga, is essentially a war between two autocratic factions. Military leaders are of little importance, as most conflicts are resolved behind the scenes by manipulative psionic magicians. What most everyone else does is of little or no consequence.

Besides. Galactus would whip all their sorry arses.

You have to understand that the Star Wars saga, is essentially a war between two autocratic factions. Military leaders are of little importance, as most conflicts are resolved behind the scenes by manipulative psionic magicians. What most everyone else does is of little or no consequence.


Bah! Nuts to you!

Besides. Galactus would whip all their sorry arses.


Bah!

When someone as lame as "Mr. Fantastic" can whip your ass, how bad can you be?

Read what you just wrote: "the rebels were a ratbag crew of amateurs"

Thrawn did not fight the Rebel Alliance, he fought the New Republic which was a galaxy-spanning government that had brilliantly trained/experienced officers and brilliantly trained/experienced soldiers. It's like comparing the Colonial Army that fought in the Revolutionary War and the United States Army that fought in the War of 1812. The US Army might not have had a lot of time to expand and develope, but it was vastly superior to Colonial Army.

Learn to differentiate between the two.
You're right to compare the Rebellion to the Continental Army, but that strengthens my argument - consider Bunker Hill: British incompetence ("let's attack a fortified position head on!") eventually overcomes an American failure to bring enough ammunition.

But the New Republic is nothing like the US in 1812. The US had had 28 years of peace to build up in - the New Republic had had 5 years of constant fighting since Endor, and had only just occupied Coruscant. Also, the New Republic was barely holding together, something Thrawn failed to exploit properly. Hell, as an alien himself, he was in a perfect position to gain the support of alien species who'd been alienated by the Emperor's prejudice against non-humans.

But the New Republic is nothing like the US in 1812. The US had had 28 years of peace to build up in - the New Republic had had 5 years of constant fighting since Endor, and had only just occupied Coruscant. Also, the New Republic was barely holding together,

Not only was the New Republic holding together, they were advancing on Coruscant from the start. They also, during this five year conflict, were scoring victory, after military victory.
This means that the level of experienced soldiers, and veteran leadership, was growing as well.

Also, in order to have such victory, you must also have shipyards, that crank out capital ships as fast as possible.

The New Republic was in pretty good shape, when Thrawn attacked.

Once again, you're misinterpreting Karrde's motives. Yes, he didn't want to tick off the Empire, but at that point, it was way too late. Thrawn was already bringing down the hammer (or was about to), so it would be ridiculous to say that Karrde would have worked with him. And, like I said before, the other crewman on the ship that found the Dark Force already knew where it was, and had already told Thrawn.
No, reread the book! When Karrde was in a cell on the Chimaera, the other crew member hadn't been found - Thrawn threw away weeks of time. And the way to persuade Karrde that he was going to survive the deal was to tell him that the Empire planned to claim that Skywalker had been mindcontrolling people (including Karrde) and wanted to release him as 'proof''.

Also, Thrawn was the one who realized that the troops at Endor had been rendered useless by the loss of the Emperor. That was why he was so careful in using C'baoth at certain times, instead of a perpetual onslaught of Force enhancement.
"Please Mr Evil Jedi, don't mind control my troops except when I ask! Please?"
Thrawn lost his best general because he didn't consider that an evil Jedi might not play by his rules!

As far as your campaign to destroy Thrawn from the inside, Thrawn would have seen it right away. Hard as they might try, simply giving him the "wrong artwork" and spreading rumors among his crew would do little but mildly irrate him, and force him to cut out a few rotten links.
How would he have 'seen it right away?' He's relying on the artwork to know how his opponents react. He's never met them, and has proven very bad at judging people in the flesh anyway. You might need to restrict it to commanders who are comparatively junior, so that he can't compare to earlier military history - but he finds out that he's misread his opponent the hard way: by losing ships.
Oh, and 'cutting out a few rotten links' is what he was doing wrong - killing/ demoting his best men.

Have at thee!

"Please Mr Evil Jedi, don't mind control my troops except when I ask! Please?"
Thrawn lost his best general because he didn't consider that an evil Jedi might not play by his rules!

Thrawn lost becuase he allowed Joruus C'Boath to live beyond his usefulness.
That, and having a bodyguard that was a member of a species that the Empire had tricked into servitude.

Not only was the New Republic holding together, they were advancing on Coruscant from the start. They also, during this five year conflict, were scoring victory, after military victory.
This means that the level of experienced soldiers, and veteran leadership, was growing as well.

Also, in order to have such victory, you must also have shipyards, that crank out capital ships as fast as possible.

The New Republic was in pretty good shape, when Thrawn attacked.
The reason the Rebellion could grow was that Imperial commanders were fighting each other for control of the Empire. As for ships, at the start of Heir to the Empire, Solo boasts that the New Republic is *almost* evenly gunned with the Empire - ie, still ougunned.

Thrawn isn't responsible for Timothy Zahn's plot-holes; he wouldn't have made those mistakes.
Plus, I haven't heard of the other guy, so I'm with Thrawn. :)

The reason the Rebellion could grow was that Imperial commanders were fighting each other for control of the Empire. As for ships, at the start of Heir to the Empire, Solo boasts that the New Republic is *almost* evenly gunned with the Empire - ie, still ougunned.


Right.

Outnumbered, but not as badly as in the Rebellion, where they won due to a small miracle, (or jedi) not due to superior tactics or numbers.

Thrawn lost becuase he allowed Joruus C'Boath to live beyond his usefulness.
That, and having a bodyguard that was a member of a species that the Empire had tricked into servitude.
Fair comments. He should have killed C'Boath the moment he'd decided to stop using him to boost his troops. (Although I can't help thinking that feeling a need to have a Jedi controlling your troops indicates - at best - that the Emperor has put a compulsion in your brain).

And keeping his bodyguards when he'd already decided that the entire species was under suspicion...just weird!
He'd have been better off telling his bodyguards that they were the only one's he trusted to capture the babies, and sending them off to their deaths.
[sigh]
Evil Overlords just don't *try* anymore!

Fair comments. He should have killed C'Boath the moment he'd decided to stop using him to boost his troops. (Although I can't help thinking that feeling a need to have a Jedi controlling your troops indicates - at best - that the Emperor has put a compulsion in your brain).

And keeping his bodyguards when he'd already decided that the entire species was under suspicion...just weird!
He'd have been better off telling his bodyguards that they were the only one's he trusted to capture the babies, and sending them off to their deaths.
[sigh]
Evil Overlords just don't *try* anymore!


Now, had it been me...

I would have thrown a yalsamiri at the guy, and had my nohgri bodyguard rip him apart.
Then I would have shot my Nohgri bodyguard in the face.

All taken care of.

No, reread the book! When Karrde was in a cell on the Chimaera, the other crew member hadn't been found - Thrawn threw away weeks of time. And the way to persuade Karrde that he was going to survive the deal was to tell him that the Empire planned to claim that Skywalker had been mindcontrolling people (including Karrde) and wanted to release him as 'proof''.


"Please Mr Evil Jedi, don't mind control my troops except when I ask! Please?"
Thrawn lost his best general because he didn't consider that an evil Jedi might not play by his rules!


How would he have 'seen it right away?' He's relying on the artwork to know how his opponents react. He's never met them, and has proven very bad at judging people in the flesh anyway. You might need to restrict it to commanders who are comparatively junior, so that he can't compare to earlier military history - but he finds out that he's misread his opponent the hard way: by losing ships.
Oh, and 'cutting out a few rotten links' is what he was doing wrong - killing/ demoting his best men.

Have at thee!

This is fun :)

As far as Karrde on the Chimaera, I can't argue that one any further. It's been a while since I read the entire series (I'm rereading it now), but as far as I remember, Thrawn hadn't realized that Karrde knew where the Katana fleet was (though I may be wrong on that), and if he had, he surely would have realized that simply "bribing" it out him would not have worked.

And, Thrawn was fully prepared for the idea that C'baoth was going to simply wander off. That's one of the two reasons he had the ysalamiri. However, I do agree that he kept C'baoth way too long. It would have been far simpler to eliminate him earlier on. However, dealing with an insane Jedi clone was one of the easier problems Thrawn had to deal with. His own downfall came from his Noghri (I'll get to them in a minute), not the reprecussions of his misbehaving tool.

As far as seeing the problems in the art work, yes, he would have noticed. He would have spotted the inconsistancies in the samples he had found, and fixed it. Besides, it would be an impossible task for the New Republic to hide all copies of the artwork from him. It simply could not be done, making that strategy useless.

You also mention his killing of officers. The reason he killed that trator beam tech, whom you called one of "his best men", was because he was imcompetent. After that little display of power, the effectiveness of his crews increased.

The one flaw Thrawn did have in his plan was, as has been said, the Noghri. He should have been able to see the problems growing there, and put too much faith in them. Had it not been for that highly improbable coincidence with his assassins, there would have been nothing to stop Thrawn from succeeding.

However, interesting as all that talk is, Ender would still dominate. Think about it, he was basically born for no other purpose than to lead, and he was trained from childhood. He pwnzored. Plus, he lived for over 3000 years. You should read the rest of the books. I believe he became a great deal wiser as the years went on.

I think you have to specify the nature of the contest more clearly: what does Ender have; what does Thrawn have.

Neverthless, its pretty clear that Ender was unstoppable. He never lost a conflict from the time he was five - when he killed stimpson and faced down the gang of bullies - until he destroyed the bugger (formic) homeworld. Further, at all times when Ender faced a vastly superior enemy he was able to defeat them completely and terminate the very reason for the conflict in the first place.

Granted at the last moment Bean had to buck the sulky Ender up and remind him that "the Enemy's gate is down," but as Bean himself admitted later he had no idea what to do, and it was Ender who formulated the winning strategy.

Despite that, and as someone pointed out earlier, Miles Naismith Vorkosigan would have beaten them both.

This is fun :)
Yep! :D


As far as seeing the problems in the art work, yes, he would have noticed. He would have spotted the inconsistancies in the samples he had found, and fixed it. Besides, it would be an impossible task for the New Republic to hide all copies of the artwork from him. It simply could not be done, making that strategy useless.
On the contrary, to get that artwork requires access to Rebel territory - it's fairly easy to control access in such circumstances. Also, 'inconsistencies'? Firstly, this is why I'd get a art critic to choose the selection, so that there aren't any major ones, while minor inconsistencies would show up as character flaws - which is what he was looking for to exploit.

You also mention his killing of officers. The reason he killed that tractor beam tech, whom you called one of "his best men", was because he was imcompetent. After that little display of power, the effectiveness of his crews increased.
That tractor beam tech was the *only* man onbaord ship who had the skill to get a lock on a Jedi knight. Surprise, surprise, he couldn't keep the lock - he was outclassed. Rather than punishing the operators who couldn't even get a lock, Thrawn shoots the one operator who had proven useful. (The guy to shoot was Thrawn himself, for not ordering the Star Destroyer to run the X-wing down, or for not having a couple of squadrons of tie fighters out to shoot up the X-wing).

Similarly, one of the Empire's secret service men tails Luke through a city - and is finally spotted. Rather than rewarding him for spotting Luke, Thrawn demotes the guy for not having a mind immune to Jedi probes.

However, interesting as all that talk is, Ender would still dominate. Think about it, he was basically born for no other purpose than to lead, and he was trained from childhood. He pwnzored. Plus, he lived for over 3000 years. You should read the rest of the books. I believe he became a great deal wiser as the years went on.

I actually did read all 7 of the Ender books. They were all excellent, though each was different from the others. Whether or not he ever truely became "wiser" is debatable (a debate which I am quite willing to have if you're interested :D)

I think you have to specify the nature of the contest more clearly: what does Ender have; what does Thrawn have.

Neverthless, its pretty clear that Ender was unstoppable. He never lost a conflict from the time he was five - when he killed stimpson and faced down the gang of bullies - until he destroyed the bugger (formic) homeworld. Further, at all times when Ender faced a vastly superior enemy he was able to defeat them completely and terminate the very reason for the conflict in the first place.

Granted at the last moment Bean had to buck the sulky Ender up and remind him that "the Enemy's gate is down," but as Bean himself admitted later he had no idea what to do, and it was Ender who formulated the winning strategy.

Despite that, and as someone pointed out earlier, Miles Naismith Vorkosigan would have beaten them both.

As far as what each side has, I did mention a little of that in my opening and second post. Other than that, it would be hard to truly outline each sides forces (a nearly impossible task, really, since Card never discusses much of the actual ship forces the International Fleet uses). Although, I did specify that Ender does not have use of the MD Device.

And, for the love of God, who is Miles Naismith Vorkosigan!?

I've never read Ender's Game or any of those.

I will say that Thrawn is seven different flavours of awesome.

And he only lost because of dumb luck from the other side. That's ALL. If it wasn't for that, he would EASILY dominated.
Yeah, what he said.
Thrawn rules so hard.

And, for the love of God, who is Miles Naismith Vorkosigan!?

Well, if you don't know you should read Lois McMaster Bujold's books. Not as thought provoking as Orson Scott Card's Ender series, but a fun read nonethless.

The main thing about Miles is whatever is thrown at him he always figures a way out. (He even sucessfully co-opts a mecenary force when he is seventeen, despite being on vacation).

On the contrary, to get that artwork requires access to Rebel territory - it's fairly easy to control access in such circumstances. Also, 'inconsistencies'? Firstly, this is why I'd get a art critic to choose the selection, so that there aren't any major ones, while minor inconsistencies would show up as character flaws - which is what he was looking for to exploit.

Touché :)
Still, it would be a very difficult task, and one that would probably not have proven totally effective, given the circumstances (fighting a war against a man/alien you don't even know the name of, much less the tactics of, will do that to you ;)). Plus, there was no way for anyone in the New Republic to have known to suppress art works like that.

That tractor beam tech was the *only* man onbaord ship who had the skill to get a lock on a Jedi knight. Surprise, surprise, he couldn't keep the lock - he was outclassed. Rather than punishing the operators who couldn't even get a lock, Thrawn shoots the one operator who had proven useful. (The guy to shoot was Thrawn himself, for not ordering the Star Destroyer to run the X-wing down, or for not having a couple of squadrons of tie fighters out to shoot up the X-wing).

If you read the scene closely, the point of the demonstration was more than just eliminating an incompetent officer; it was to show the difference between an "error" and a "mistake", as well as to show how "mistakes" were dealt with. Thrawn was nothing short of efficient.

As for "running him down", how well do you think trying to ram a snub fighter with an Imperial Star Destroyer would work? If he even managed to bring the bow around, Luke would have either been in a completely different postion, or would have long ago jumped to Hyperspace. And, a couple squadrons of TIEs would have killed Luke, which was not what Thrawn wanted.

Similarly, one of the Empire's secret service men tails Luke through a city - and is finally spotted. Rather than rewarding him for spotting Luke, Thrawn demotes the guy for not having a mind immune to Jedi probes.

I recall this incident, but as for the details, I'm a touch fuzzy. I'll get back to you on this...

This *so* beats arguments about politics! :)
FAKING ARTWORKS:
Touché :)
Still, it would be a very difficult task, and one that would probably not have proven totally effective, given the circumstances (fighting a war against a man/alien you don't even know the name of, much less the tactics of, will do that to you ;)). Plus, there was no way for anyone in the New Republic to have known to suppress art works like that.
The strategy doesn't need to be completely effective; Thrawn relied heavily on his predicitons of his opponents moves, so one mistake was enough for his plans to unravel. (This is a common mistake with inexperienced RW generals, BTW - if you want a 'realistic' unbeatable opponent, he needs to consider EVERYTHING that his opponents might do, and be ready to face each, no matter how improbable).
One point I will concede - this can't be done until Thrawn's technique is known about. So the New Republic can't do this until the 3rd book. However, Mara Jade should have warned Karrde to replace his artworks at the start of the third book - filling them with artwork appropriate for a visiting trading partner and telling Thrawn that you're trying to make a possible client feel at home would be a safe way to hide Karrde's weaknesses.

Shooting subordinates:
If you read the scene closely, the point of the demonstration was more than just eliminating an incompetent officer; it was to show the difference between an "error" and a "mistake", as well as to show how "mistakes" were dealt with. Thrawn was nothing short of efficient.
And again, the lesson to learn was - don't stand out: it'll get you killed. Remain as incompetent as everyone else and you'll be safe.

As for "running him down", how well do you think trying to ram a snub fighter with an Imperial Star Destroyer would work? If he even managed to bring the bow around, Luke would have either been in a completely different postion, or would have long ago jumped to Hyperspace. And, a couple squadrons of TIEs would have killed Luke, which was not what Thrawn wanted.
I win the geekiness award!
Zahn actually read the Star Wars roleplaying game books so that he'd have a fair idea of what Force abilities/starships/weapons/etc could do. In the RP game, Star Destroyers are *fast* - which is why they can keep up with the Millenium Falcon in the second movie, of course. They're about as manoeveurable as a brick, of course, which is why they're able to collide when they've got all of deep space to play in: but yes, they can keep up with an X-wing, and you don't need to aim because the tractor beam is dragging the X-wing towards you.
As for the Tie fighters - no, they wouldn't have killed Luke. It takes multiple hits to do that, X-wings are tough (think back to the movies, to how many hits they each took before blowing up). But shooting up the X-wing would cripple it's handling and make it easier to capture.
{Notable that Rebellion equipment and tactics tends to resemble RW Soviet stuff!}

This *so* beats arguments about politics! :)
FAKING ARTWORKS:

The strategy doesn't need to be completely effective; Thrawn relied heavily on his predicitons of his opponents moves, so one mistake was enough for his plans to unravel. (This is a common mistake with inexperienced RW generals, BTW - if you want a 'realistic' unbeatable opponent, he needs to consider EVERYTHING that his opponents might do, and be ready to face each, no matter how improbable).
One point I will concede - this can't be done until Thrawn's technique is known about. So the New Republic can't do this until the 3rd book. However, Mara Jade should have warned Karrde to replace his artworks at the start of the third book - filling them with artwork appropriate for a visiting trading partner and telling Thrawn that you're trying to make a possible client feel at home would be a safe way to hide Karrde's weaknesses.

Shooting subordinates:

And again, the lesson to learn was - don't stand out: it'll get you killed. Remain as incompetent as everyone else and you'll be safe.


I win the geekiness award!
Zahn actually read the Star Wars roleplaying game books so that he'd have a fair idea of what Force abilities/starships/weapons/etc could do. In the RP game, Star Destroyers are *fast* - which is why they can keep up with the Millenium Falcon in the second movie, of course. They're about as manoeveurable as a brick, of course, which is why they're able to collide when they've got all of deep space to play in: but yes, they can keep up with an X-wing, and you don't need to aim because the tractor beam is dragging the X-wing towards you.
As for the Tie fighters - no, they wouldn't have killed Luke. It takes multiple hits to do that, X-wings are tough (think back to the movies, to how many hits they each took before blowing up). But shooting up the X-wing would cripple it's handling and make it easier to capture.
{Notable that Rebellion equipment and tactics tends to resemble RW Soviet stuff!}


Keep in mind that X-WINGS are eqiupped with Sheild generators, and Astromech droids that can do in-flight repairs.

TIE-Fighters have neither.

The X-Wing is the superior craft.

This *so* beats arguments about politics! :)
Hell yes.
FAKING ARTWORKS:

The strategy doesn't need to be completely effective; Thrawn relied heavily on his predicitons of his opponents moves, so one mistake was enough for his plans to unravel. (This is a common mistake with inexperienced RW generals, BTW - if you want a 'realistic' unbeatable opponent, he needs to consider EVERYTHING that his opponents might do, and be ready to face each, no matter how improbable).
One point I will concede - this can't be done until Thrawn's technique is known about. So the New Republic can't do this until the 3rd book. However, Mara Jade should have warned Karrde to replace his artworks at the start of the third book - filling them with artwork appropriate for a visiting trading partner and telling Thrawn that you're trying to make a possible client feel at home would be a safe way to hide Karrde's weaknesses.

Like I said, I am in the process of rereading the series, so I don't remember *all* the details of everything. To the best of my knowledge, however, Mara didn't know how heavily Thrawn relied on artwork. And, even if he had changed the artwork, and everyone had been warned, it would have been a wasted effort by then. When Thrawn is making his plans and studying art, he's not seeing things for the first time. He's already invested many long hours, and has inspected countless works. Hiding it then would merely tell Thrawn more about what his enemy knows, and do very little to hinder him. His conclusions are more or less already drawn.

Shooting subordinates:

And again, the lesson to learn was - don't stand out: it'll get you killed. Remain as incompetent as everyone else and you'll be safe.
In order to view this properly, you need to take into account Luke's second escape, via a rigged freighter with his X-Wing inside. In that case, Thrawn rewarded the ingenuity of the tractor beam operator in his innovative attempt to reaquire the lock. The officer in our first scenario was stupid; he failed, and tried to excuse himself without recognizing the problem. The second officer knew exactly what happened, and, while his efforts failed, still managed to develop a unique way to handle the situation.

Conclusion: first guy moron, second guy clever.

I win the geekiness award!
Zahn actually read the Star Wars roleplaying game books so that he'd have a fair idea of what Force abilities/starships/weapons/etc could do. In the RP game, Star Destroyers are *fast* - which is why they can keep up with the Millenium Falcon in the second movie, of course. They're about as manoeveurable as a brick, of course, which is why they're able to collide when they've got all of deep space to play in: but yes, they can keep up with an X-wing, and you don't need to aim because the tractor beam is dragging the X-wing towards you.
As for the Tie fighters - no, they wouldn't have killed Luke. It takes multiple hits to do that, X-wings are tough (think back to the movies, to how many hits they each took before blowing up). But shooting up the X-wing would cripple it's handling and make it easier to capture.
{Notable that Rebellion equipment and tactics tends to resemble RW Soviet stuff!}

First of all, there is no way you can claim the Geekiness Award, when I obviously captured that title by starting this thread in the first place.

As far as speeds go, I can't comment (having never read those books myself). However, you can look to common sense as far as "ramming" is concerned. There is no possible way that that Star Destroyer could have possibly brought its bow around to run him down. You yourself said that they handle like bricks. In any case, it still boils down to my original point on this, being that it would have made Luke very dead.

And, while it may have been that the TIEs could have crippled Luke, at the time, he was already in the tractor beam (negating your other argument as well). The trap was already laid; TIEs would have been superfluous, and highly suspicious.

Keep in mind that X-WINGS are equipped with Shield generators, and Astromech droids that can do in-flight repairs.

TIE-Fighters have neither.

The X-Wing is the superior craft.
Soviet =/= Bad.

The X-wing is far superior, no doubt. The Tie fighter is a mass producted craft designed to exploit the fact that the Empire considered people expendable.

No, I made the comparison because WWII Soviet aircraft were designed by ex-tank designers, as the Germans found out to their disgust.

When Thrawn is making his plans and studying art, he's not seeing things for the first time. He's already invested many long hours, and has inspected countless works. Hiding it then would merely tell Thrawn more about what his enemy knows, and do very little to hinder him. His conclusions are more or less already drawn.
I think this marks our fundamental disagreement - time. Thrawn has only just returned to the Slice; he doesn't have much time in which to master everything. Although years of data are available, he hasn't been around to analyse it so it's easy to tamper with the history - as Imperial Intelligence would never have bothered to keep tabs.

In order to view this properly, you need to take into account Luke's second escape, via a rigged freighter with his X-Wing inside. In that case, Thrawn rewarded the ingenuity of the tractor beam operator in his innovative attempt to reaquire the lock. The officer in our first scenario was stupid; he failed, and tried to excuse himself without recognizing the problem. The second officer knew exactly what happened, and, while his efforts failed, still managed to develop a unique way to handle the situation.

Conclusion: first guy moron, second guy clever.
Second Guy clever - yes. First guy - better than those who survived. Despite being half-trained!


First of all, there is no way you can claim the Geekiness Award, when I obviously captured that title by starting this thread in the first place.
Nonsense, geeks obsess over other people's stuff, genuine creativity belongs to the arty types.

As far as speeds go, I can't comment (having never read those books myself). However, you can look to common sense as far as "ramming" is concerned. There is no possible way that that Star Destroyer could have possibly brought its bow around to run him down. You yourself said that they handle like bricks. In any case, it still boils down to my original point on this, being that it would have made Luke very dead.

And, while it may have been that the TIEs could have crippled Luke, at the time, he was already in the tractor beam (negating your other argument as well). The trap was already laid; TIEs would have been superfluous, and highly suspicious.
The Star Destroyer had already turned around; that's in the description (which was necessary anyway as the tractor beams face forward - bad design work). And your arguments cancel out: too unwieldy to collide? This just means that they miss, and the X-wing is sucked in by the tractor beam. The reason to run the X-wing down is to cut down the time Luke has to react in.

And a Star Destroyer dropping out a squadron of Ties 'on patrol' is hardly suspicious.

[sigh] What will we do when we've finished arguing this?

I think this marks our fundamental disagreement - time. Thrawn has only just returned to the Slice; he doesn't have much time in which to master everything. Although years of data are available, he hasn't been around to analyse it so it's easy to tamper with the history - as Imperial Intelligence would never have bothered to keep tabs.
Thrawn has indeed been out in the Outer Rim all this time, but what do you think he's been doing all this time? Studying art! Preparing for his return! After all, a guy with Thrawn's genius can't be expending a whole lot of effort on pirates and renegades.

Second Guy clever - yes. First guy - better than those who survived. Despite being half-trained!
As far as getting the lock, it may have been mere luck. It never says that his tractor catch was a display of skill. His failure later on indicates a lack thereof.

Nonsense, geeks obsess over other people's stuff, genuine creativity belongs to the arty types.
...

Whatever.

The Star Destroyer had already turned around; that's in the description (which was necessary anyway as the tractor beams face forward - bad design work). And your arguments cancel out: too unwieldy to collide? This just means that they miss, and the X-wing is sucked in by the tractor beam. The reason to run the X-wing down is to cut down the time Luke has to react in.

And a Star Destroyer dropping out a squadron of Ties 'on patrol' is hardly suspicious.
Tractor beams only face foward? I think not.

If the tractor beams are mounted on the bow, and only fire in that direction, then how could they be used to pull unpowered/unwilling craft into the docking bays (as is indicated in many, many sources)?

As for the TIEs, it would be hard to say whether or not Luke would have found it suspicious to see them flying around an already subjugated freighter (since we haven't anaylized him like Thrawn would have ;)).

[sigh] What will we do when we've finished arguing this?
When this dies, fear not; I'll be back :D

Sorry to interupt a great discussion, but because of this thread I'm now readind the Timothy Zahn series. I was never a big sci-fi fan, with the exception of the Ender's Game series. But now I like STAR WARS books for dork's sake!!

Thanks for making me a big dork guys.

Remember that, during their respective careers, Ender never lost a single battle, and he had a second-in-command (Bean) who during his career has yet to lose a single battle, as well as others. Meanwhile, Thrawn admits his own tactical defeat at the battle at Coruscant when Garm bel Iblis does something he doesn't expect. Likewise he is quite terse at the Battle of Bilbringi and implies to Pellaeon that the Empire could probably still win, but it was getting iffy (this being after the smugglers start making runs on the Golan platforms).

Ender would take Thrawn apart, assuming equal weaponry. Ender's innovation, brilliant tactics, and leadership abilities take him over the top.

Remember that, during their respective careers, Ender never lost a single battle, and he had a second-in-command (Bean) who during his career has yet to lose a single battle, as well as others. Meanwhile, Thrawn admits his own tactical defeat at the battle at Coruscant when Garm bel Iblis does something he doesn't expect. Likewise he is quite terse at the Battle of Bilbringi and implies to Pellaeon that the Empire could probably still win, but it was getting iffy (this being after the smugglers start making runs on the Golan platforms).

Ender would take Thrawn apart, assuming equal weaponry. Ender's innovation, brilliant tactics, and leadership abilities take him over the top.

Thrawn was undeniably brilliant the type to get into your head and refuse to leave. If we wasn't stabbed in the back by his Noghri bodyguard, (literaly), even with his bad luck at Bilbringi he could have bounced back.

Sorry to interupt a great discussion, but because of this thread I'm now readind the Timothy Zahn series. I was never a big sci-fi fan, with the exception of the Ender's Game series. But now I like STAR WARS books for dork's sake!!

Thanks for making me a big dork guys.
Glad to help :D

And, for reference, the proper term is geek. ;)

Also, I'd like to thank everyone that has given their views so far; you have all made excellent arguments. Despite my epic battle of wits with Holy Palatinate, please keep posting your views!

Try David Weber's Honor Harrington series. Great story, and detail in how the ships work.

Ender may be a tactical genius, but nowhere in Ender's game does it suggest that he really has all that much sense of strategy. He always just fights whatever battle he's told to. In a single encounter, Ender would probably beat Thrawn, but even winning most of his battles, he would end up losing in a war because he doesn't know about anything but tactics. The fact that Ender took so long to even realize that he wasn't just playing tactical simulations tells you that he wasn't paying attention to the bigger picture. Thrawn on the other hand, is always thinking about the bigger picture, and he would learn to anticipate tactical defeats and turn them into victories. Ender doesn't know how to do anything but win battles.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth.

Ender may be a tactical genius, but nowhere in Ender's game does it suggest that he really has all that much sense of strategy. He always just fights whatever battle he's told to. In a single encounter, Ender would probably beat Thrawn, but even winning most of his battles, he would end up losing in a war because he doesn't know about anything but tactics. The fact that Ender took so long to even realize that he wasn't just playing tactical simulations tells you that he wasn't paying attention to the bigger picture. Thrawn on the other hand, is always thinking about the bigger picture, and he would learn to anticipate tactical defeats and turn them into victories. Ender doesn't know how to do anything but win battles.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth.
Huh. I'd never thought of that. That's a pretty neat idea.

Bonus points for you. :)

Huh. I'd never thought of that. That's a pretty neat idea.

Bonus points for you. :)
Loose the battle, win the war - I yeild! You're right: all Thrawn has to do is create a scenario in which Ender wins (strategically insignificant) battes while Thrawn rolls over the ship building planets.

Sorry to interupt a great discussion, but because of this thread I'm now readind the Timothy Zahn series. I was never a big sci-fi fan, with the exception of the Ender's Game series. But now I like STAR WARS books for dork's sake!!

Thanks for making me a big dork guys.
You're welcome! (Do you read Dork Towers? There's some delightful Star Wars takes in there). Oh, are you aware that Zahn's Star Wars 'trilogy' now has *five* volumes? And the last two live up to the standard of the original trio - in some ways they're even better. ;)

Now, I haven't read anything about Ender, but from what I've seen here, he was raised to be a tactician and such, yes?

Wouldn't that make Thrawn better? While Ender was brought up to be what he was, Thrawn actually had to fight againts discrimination from the Emperor himself in order to get that far.

Loose the battle, win the war - I yeild! You're right: all Thrawn has to do is create a scenario in which Ender wins (strategically insignificant) battes while Thrawn rolls over the ship building planets.

Since when do you tell the enemy he has won? -Mazer Rackham

So, I guess that brings me to my view on this. Before I started this, I really had no idea who would win. But after reading all this, I think that my vote goes to Thrawn. Not only for the reason described by Quorm, but also from style of reading oppenents.

Think about it. If Ender "read" Thrawn, he would see what is overly obvious; Thrawn is highly intelligent, and extremely ambitious (possibly his only flaw). Thrawn, however, would see so much more. He would see things that Ender literally could not comprehend and deal with. He could build a full scale war, choosing every battle, playing his own game.

So, Ender might win the battle (thought, head to head on Thrawn would be fun to watch), but Thrawn would certainly win the war.

However, don't let this stop you from posting still! You may say something that will change my view ;)