NationStates Jolt Archive

To better understand the works of God is to doubt. From doubt comes curiosity. From curiosity comes exploration. From exploration comes experience. With experience comes wisdom.

Wisdom.

That is our collective mission: Accrue and dispense bona fide wisdom and understanding to our fellows.

'Faith'? To have faith is to openly declare that you have no interest in understanding this utterly breath-taking continuum in which we all live. It is a dead-end street. If anything is going to make God displeased, it's the millions of dupes who dismiss their collective mission, and grovel on their knees in a drafty church once a week, every week, until they keel over dead.

Faith is Sin. Doubt is Holy. Wisdom is the goal.

So get off your knees and take the time to smell the flowers instead. There's more of God to be found in a rose petal than you'll ever read about in some old book.

Yea verily!

When did God say "If anything is going to make God {me} displeased, it's the millions of dupes who dismiss their collective mission, and grovel on their knees in a drafty church once a week, every week, until they keel over dead." So God said my ultimate goal is to understand the world, and not to serve him? Even if "faith = sin" were true, God forgives sins... One sin doesn't earn you a spot in hell...

When did God say "If anything is going to make God {me} displeased, it's the millions of dupes who dismiss their collective mission, and grovel on their knees in a drafty church once a week, every week, until they keel over dead." So God said my ultimate goal is to understand the world, and not to serve him? Even if "faith = sin" were true, God forgives sins... One sin doesn't earn you a spot in hell...

Why would God need to be served, dude? God is everything, God is everywhere, you are God, I am God, we're all of us God together. So, you want to serve God? Then serve God by serving yourself and your fellows. How does it 'serve God' to bend and scrape once weekly?

You really think God is so egomaniacal that he needs this constant reassurance?

Go smell the roses before you keel over yourself...

God doesn't need to reassurance of you "bending and scraping." The bible doesn't say you have to devote your life to nothing but serving him either. If you believe he exists and died to forgive your sins, you go to heaven, if you don't... you go to hell. God doesn't say not to investigate the world and to be a mindless drone going into church every week to prove you believe. I enjoy the world all I want; it doesn't mean I'm questioning God. And I love the smell of roses.

We are not God, God is not everything, God IS however a being far beyond our comprehension. One sin without salvation will lead to hell. Salvation however eliminates hell as the path and replaces it with heaven. Jesus Christ the Son of God is that salvation. "The Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world". Faith in God is better than faith in atheism or secular humanism.

To better understand the works of God is to doubt. From doubt comes curiosity. From curiosity comes exploration. From exploration comes experience. With experience comes wisdom.

Wisdom.

That is our collective mission: Accrue and dispense bona fide wisdom and understanding to our fellows.

'Faith'? To have faith is to openly declare that you have no interest in understanding this utterly breath-taking continuum in which we all live. It is a dead-end street. If anything is going to make God displeased, it's the millions of dupes who dismiss their collective mission, and grovel on their knees in a drafty church once a week, every week, until they keel over dead.

Faith is Sin. Doubt is Holy. Wisdom is the goal.

So get off your knees and take the time to smell the flowers instead. There's more of God to be found in a rose petal than you'll ever read about in some old book.
You're not understanding worship. It's not saying, "God, you're so cool. That sweater really brings out your eyes. Love your tie!" It's hearing that universal message of salvation, it's Confession and Absolution, it's the Intriot, the Kyrie- it's all Christocentric, it's all preaching that message. Not just saying God is cool.

Doubt is Holy? Jesus wouldn't think so. Wisdom is the goal? Name a wiser human being than Christ.

I agree with you Davistania about everything you've just said.

Dobbs I dont have a problem with you going and looking at the world but to say more can be learned by not reading the Bible is a pure insult. The Bible is the greatest and most true book on the Earth, in the solar system, or how about the universe. The Bible has everything from who, where, when, what, why, and how it happened. It also has the answers to all of the problems we face every day. Even though it is "old" it doesn't mean it has nothing good to say.

I agree with you Davistania about everything you've just said.

King Binks I dont have a problem with you going and looking at the world but to say more can be learned by not reading the Bible is a pure insult. The Bible is the greatest and most true book on the Earth, in the solar system, or how about the universe. The Bible has everything from who, where, when, what, why, and how it happened. It also has the answers to all of the problems we face every day. Even though it is "old" it doesn't mean it has nothing good to say.

- Whoa, I didn't mean that looking at the world is better than the bible. I agree with you.

Even though it is "old" it doesn't mean it has nothing good to say.Conversely, its age doesn't mean it has nothing bad to say.

I don't believe in sin as such, so I won't be agreeing with the premise of the initial post, but I believe it has a point insofar as many institutions carry faith too far, and suggest that it is based on actions instead of a state of being. This is not to belittle true faith, but rather the type of institutionalized faith that is rampant in organized religion.

Sorry, wrong person, meant Dobbs Town.

What do you mean by "carry faith too far"? How can you "carry faith too far"? Faith is essential otherwise nothing happens, because there is no faith that anything is what it is.

Sorry, wrong person, meant Dobbs Town.

Oh, ok. And Unfree People couldnt be more right, there are so many people who say they "believe" who really don't and are the kind of people Dobbs Town is probably talking about.

Couldn't agree more but still how can you "carry faith too far"?

God doesn't need to reassurance of you "bending and scraping." The bible doesn't say you have to devote your life to nothing but serving him either. If you believe he exists and died to forgive your sins, you go to heaven, if you don't... you go to hell. God doesn't say not to investigate the world and to be a mindless drone going into church every week to prove you believe. I enjoy the world all I want; it doesn't mean I'm questioning God. And I love the smell of roses.


It also said that your supposed to convert people to your religion, your supposed to preach the word of god. I never see many christians out preaching, granted im glad of that, but still.
If believing in jesus is all we need, then why is the bible full of rules?
So your saying if saddam hussein believes in jesus, he will not go to hell? somehow that seems absurd in itself. Just a way to get comfort in doing what you do.

And if god were so loving ,whyd he invent a place to torment people for eternity, when they couldnt even see him? or talk to him? beyond some stupid book that brought about so much pain and violence in this world?

Don t get me wrong i believe in god, but i dont think he would care whether i was muslim, or hebrew.

furthermore, if god kno's everything, then he would have known that satan would tempt adam and bring about the mess it brought about. So why did he do it? for fun? to proove something to us? the people he created out of boredom?

A lot of the people that I talk to that have degrees in Catholic Theology say that it is better to question Gods existance, rather than mindlessly following him. The one that doubts is the one that thinks about God. However, Bible study isn't a bad thing nor is going to church. They probably aren't necessary , but it is only an hour and sometimes the sermons really help drive the message of the Gospels home.

To better understand the works of God is to doubt. From doubt comes curiosity. From curiosity comes exploration. From exploration comes experience. With experience comes wisdom.

Wisdom.

That is our collective mission: Accrue and dispense bona fide wisdom and understanding to our fellows.

'Faith'? To have faith is to openly declare that you have no interest in understanding this utterly breath-taking continuum in which we all live. It is a dead-end street. If anything is going to make God displeased, it's the millions of dupes who dismiss their collective mission, and grovel on their knees in a drafty church once a week, every week, until they keel over dead.

Faith is Sin. Doubt is Holy. Wisdom is the goal.

So get off your knees and take the time to smell the flowers instead. There's more of God to be found in a rose petal than you'll ever read about in some old book.

And?

Couldn't agree more but still how can you "carry faith too far"?

One word many of you will understand: Bush. or how about a phrase: Muslim Extremism.
2 examples of how faith is carried too far.

I think he's trying to say that too much anything is not really a good thing like : money, attention, drugs, and kids.

Faith is only bad really when its blind. a sheep being led by the wolves. What makes the priest standing in front of you any better then you? nothing. Yet people cant think for themselves and fall into the faith trap, and end up doing really stupid things.

Not to say faith hasnt brought good things to the world either....

A lot of the people that I talk to that have degrees in Catholic Theology say that it is better to question Gods existance, rather than mindlessly following him. The one that doubts is the one that thinks about God. However, Bible study isn't a bad thing nor is going to church. They probably aren't necessary , but it is only an hour and sometimes the sermons really help drive the message of the Gospels home.


I understand why people go to church now, because i work with a company who has motivational speakers. People need purpose, they need motivation. Going to church puts you in this environment where your surrounded by like minded people, who will help you be strong in times where you would normally collapse on your own.

Sadly not everyone in the world is a strong person, nor will ever be; so knowing what we know, there must be someway to atleast make the weak people feel stronger,and thus hold themselves up better and contribute to society.

Church, Motivational Speaking, positive music are all constructive ways
joining gangs, clubs, concerts all tend to be negative ways.

in the end they all motivate people to act and be a certain way. At a concert the singer is the priest, driving home a main theme, a feeling, a way to deal with life. the crowd always listens, and those who are weak go away temporarily stronger because they have something to feel, to believe in.

Example:

Beastie boys concert. They said vote for kerry! If there was some undecided weak person in there, they would now think more on voting for kerry because the beastie boys said to!.

n the end whether you have to much fiath in god, or too muhc faith in the beastie boys, too much faith is not a good thing.

It also said that your supposed to convert people to your religion, your supposed to preach the word of god. I never see many christians out preaching, granted im glad of that, but still.
If believing in jesus is all we need, then why is the bible full of rules?
So your saying if saddam hussein believes in jesus, he will not go to hell? somehow that seems absurd in itself. Just a way to get comfort in doing what you do.

And if god were so loving ,whyd he invent a place to torment people for eternity, when they couldnt even see him? or talk to him? beyond some stupid book that brought about so much pain and violence in this world?

Don t get me wrong i believe in god, but i dont think he would care whether i was muslim, or hebrew.

furthermore, if god kno's everything, then he would have known that satan would tempt adam and bring about the mess it brought about. So why did he do it? for fun? to proove something to us? the people he created out of boredom?

I dont have the answer, maybe no one does but I can tell you one thing, the Bible is absolute truth, there is one way to heaven and that is through Jesus and the Bible has not been responsible for all the violence. When you die you can ask God why he had things the way he did. Note we are the ant looking at the Earth, we can't understand it completely but the person that did can understand what it's all about.

What do you mean by "carry faith too far"? How can you "carry faith too far"? Faith is essential otherwise nothing happens, because there is no faith that anything is what it is.
The Spanish Inquisition.
The Crusades.
The Holocaust, many genocides and ethnic cleansing.
The witch trials, various 'witch' tests.
Overenthusiastic evangelism to the point of psychological and/or physical harm.
Targeting and persecution of heretics, or people who don't agree with you.
Smaller issues like censorship, discouragement of innovation and dissent, outpaced population growth, mass suicides, slavery, the list goes on and on...

I'm not blaming these things on the existence of religion in general, but this is definitely 'faith carried too far'.

I dont have the answer, maybe no one does but I can tell you one thing, the Bible is absolute truth, there is one way to heaven and that is through Jesus and the Bible has not been responsible for all the violence. When you die you can ask God why he had things the way he did. Note we are the ant looking at the Earth, we can't understand it completely but the person that did can understand what it's all about.How do you reconcile that with the fact that the Bible is, after all, a book written by man, and therefore rife with contradictions and intolerance?

Too much faith in God's existance and that Jesus is the way to heaven is the exception to the rule. The "world" is full of exceptions, this is one more.

It was inspired by God and written by men so therefore God wrote it.

Too much faith in God's existance and that Jesus is the way to heaven is the exception to the rule. The "world" is full of exceptions, this is one more.I never denied that (not in this thread at least). But you can't deny the existence of these things, and the fact that faith was a large motivator in most of it all.

It was inspired by God and written by men so therefore God wrote it.Well... if the argument's going to go there, I'm done with it. Since I don't believe in God, and don't believe that the Bible is anymore legitimate than the dozens of other holy books subscribed to by many cultures and peoples.

We are not God, God is not everything, God IS however a being far beyond our comprehension. One sin without salvation will lead to hell. Salvation however eliminates hell as the path and replaces it with heaven. Jesus Christ the Son of God is that salvation. "The Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world". Faith in God is better than faith in atheism or secular humanism.

It is in my opinion that the only Faith one can depend on is the Faith in oneself. This may be because I've seen so many terrible things happen in my family alone that I don't believe any "God" really cares, and nor do I believe that the Bible is the word of God. To say the Bible is the word of God and yet God is beyond Our comprehension, that is arrogance. If we aren't meant to comprehend him, then how can any of it be real? My point exactly.

I'm tired of all the hatred I see that people cover up because it's "God's Will" and that the ones that are hated are going to be eternally damned for their beliefs. It's time for some change, and I for one hope to see it in my lifetime. Stop using religion as your crutch and have faith in your own being. The only way I can see to determine, that should determine where one's soul goes after their physical being is no more is based on the overall deeds of their life. If they've done good to their fellow people, to their surroundings, let them go to heaven. If they've made a point of it to discriminate, to hate those around them because they're different, because of their beliefs, then they are the ones who deserve Damnation. I've spoken my words, I am done.

Yes but if a paralized man that you had faith in asked you to write down his words for a book you probably would. Down to the word to otherwise you would ask him if you could cange it. Not to say that God is unable to help us or do anything but to talk to people throgh other people who have been postivily affected works best than saying in a dream I AM GOD. This has worked in certain circumstances but usually that person had heard of God.

Yes but good deeds mean squat if your with sin covered like a oil stained rag. You dont use an oil stained rag to clean yourself or another object. You cant get to heaven with sin.

And oh yeah if you dont know if any of it is real how do I know your real? I dont. So therefore you are not real according to what you just said.

Ursea are you a Christian? I am and I've been through bad times to but you know what there is always a light at the end of the tunnel. With God on your side you can get through anything.

Unfree People you may not believe but I'm saying you should otherwise you end up someday in a place you never wanted to be in.

Is anyone else there?

Unfree People you may not believe but I'm saying you should otherwise you end up someday in a place you never wanted to be in.Convert or go to hell? Clever.

Unfree People you may not believe but I'm saying you should otherwise you end up someday in a place you never wanted to be in.

Preaching damnation and hellfire? You'll attract more flies with honey than vinegar.

But what I say I know to be true. Damnation and hellfire awaits non-Christians. Sorry if I offend.

But what I say I know to be true.

Okay, but remember that it takes both Law and Gospel. Don't forget the Gospel, and remember as I said that you attract more flies with honey than vinegar.

Sorry, but you do not "know" that to be true anymore than I "know" it to be false. It's just something improvable.

Prove the Bible false.

Prove the Bible false.
The Bible says many things that are either unproven or cannot be proven. I have not made a study of the bible so I'll refer you to those who have - you can ignore them as you like. http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Now you prove it true. Uh huh, you can't. You have to take it on faith. I won't belittle that faith as long as you don't belittle my lack of it.

Prove the Bible false.

Prove it's true. It's not something you prove, it's something you accept on faith. So respect other people for their faith, and they can respect you for yours.

But what I say I know to be true. Damnation and hellfire awaits non-Christians. Sorry if I offend.




you may be the closest thing to christian here, becuase you been preaching, but answer me this:
Why are days like xmas, and easter celebrated by christians?
those are both 2 pagan holidays.
so what the romans went to convert the english, and showed them christianity, but made it seem like their paganism. that way their converted and accepted into the empire.

thats just wrong to knowingly continue to celebrate these christian lies on pagan holidays

how bout the trinity, isnt that also a pagan staple!! damn christianity seems more and more like paganism

you may be the closest thing to christian here, becuase you been preaching, but answer me this:
Why are days like xmas, and easter celebrated by christians?
those are both 2 pagan holidays.
so what the romans went to convert the english, and showed them christianity, but made it seem like their paganism. that way their converted and accepted into the empire.

thats just wrong to knowingly continue to celebrate these christian lies on pagan holidays

But christmas is more celebrated for the birth of Jesus and easter for his death. The easter bunny and Santa Claus are from the "world". The trinity is Christian through and through from the very beginin even before Christianity.

Parts of the Bible can be proven so therefore since none of it can be disproven then it must be considered true because part of it is known to be true.

[QUOTE=Teckor]But christmas is more celebrated for the birth of Jesus and easter for his death. The easter bunny and Santa Claus are from the "world". The trinity is Christian through and through from the very beginin even before Christianity.[/QUOTE



yes, its celebrated for his birth, but it was not when he wsa born, it was when the mother goddess was born. and his death, is the yet another significant pagan event.

what i am saying is that these two events have roots in "evil" why do them?

the trinity came from paganism. the mother tcrone and warrior, the three sides of the god.

pagan documents go back to drawings in caves, which is much older then any page in the bible.
ask a jew if they believe in the trinity. they believe in jesus, and thats what all christians were before jesus. then jesus transformed everything by his actions, he didnt say hey theres a trinity. if theres a trinity how did jesus get baptized yet god spoke from heaven to say this is my son, the one i love....what are you saying jesus is god? that means he is so egotistical that he had to hear himself say he was damn good.

Parts of the Bible can be proven so therefore since none of it can be disproven then it must be considered true because part of it is known to be true.Parts of evolution can be and are proven, since that it so, evolution must be true.


Bull.

[QUOTE=Teckor]But christmas is more celebrated for the birth of Jesus and easter for his death. The easter bunny and Santa Claus are from the "world". The trinity is Christian through and through from the very beginin even before Christianity.[/QUOTE



yes, its celebrated for his birth, but it was not when he wsa born, it was when the mother goddess was born. and his death, is the yet another significant pagan event.

what i am saying is that these two events have roots in "evil" why do them?

the trinity came from paganism. the mother tcrone and warrior, the three sides of the god.

pagan documents go back to drawings in caves, which is much older then any page in the bible.
ask a jew if they believe in the trinity. they believe in jesus, and thats what all christians were before jesus. then jesus transformed everything by his actions, he didnt say hey theres a trinity. if theres a trinity how did jesus get baptized yet god spoke from heaven to say this is my son, the one i love....what are you saying jesus is god? that means he is so egotistical that he had to hear himself say he was damn good.

I'm ending k? Neither one will budge. If I could see you and debate instantly I would welcome the chance. Goodbye fellow debator.

EVOLUTION IS THE BIGGEST LIE TOLD IN THE WORLD AND JUST for the sake of it I'll see you in hell in 20 yrs

Parts of the Bible can be proven so therefore since none of it can be disproven then it must be considered true because part of it is known to be true.

If it can't be disproven, that doesn't mean it CAN be proven. If SOME of it can be proven, it doesn't mean that ALL of it can be proven. That's bad logic.

Moreover, a major theme of the Bible is beliving based on Faith, not on something that can be proven.

EVOLUTION IS THE BIGGEST LIE TOLD IN THE WORLD AND JUST for the sake of it I'll see you in hell in 20 yrs

that ,must mean your coming too, or in heaven theres some sick twisted window so you can watch everyone get tormented eternally....sick basterds

EVOLUTION IS THE BIGGEST LIE TOLD IN THE WORLD Well, since you say so in all caps, you must be right. You so obviously believe that you're right to the exclusion of everyone else, there can be no way you're mistaken.

It's attitudes like that which turned me away from Christianity. It's hypocritical, self-effacing bunk.

Well, since you say so in all caps, you must be right. You so obviously believe that you're right to the exclusion of everyone else, there can be no way you're mistaken.

It's attitudes like that which turned me away from Christianity. It's hypocritical, self-effacing bunk.

I think he's a mole, myself. As a Christian, I'd just like to point out that not every Christian justifies points by typing in all caps. So pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

As a Christian, I'd just like to point out that not every Christian justifies points by typing in all caps.Yeah, of course that's true. But it sure is easy to forget, sometimes.

Yeah, of course that's true. But it sure is easy to forget, sometimes.
Yeah. It just reminds me of an MST3K quote:

Crow, after watching a man capture a baby bear and put it in a zoo: "Mike, do they actually DO this on Earth?"
Tom: "Yeah, isn't this wrong?"
Mike: "Yes, I'm deeply ashamed of my race right now."

as a final wind down from all this excitement id like to say, there were no christians harmed in this debate. Only one with no real faith exposed :D

true christians are all good people. the ones that can think for themselves that is :D

if god kno's everything, then he would have known that satan would tempt adam and bring about the mess it brought about. So why did he do it? for fun? to proove something to us? the people he created out of boredom?
Trying to explain something that transcends the universe using only the laws of the universe simply is not a valid argument. Namely, causality is an artifact of the universe, and does not necesserally apply to anything external to the universe.


Why are days like xmas, and easter celebrated by christians?
those are both 2 pagan holidays.
so what the romans went to convert the english, and showed them christianity, but made it seem like their paganism. that way their converted and accepted into the empire.
...
how bout the trinity, isnt that also a pagan staple!! damn christianity seems more and more like paganism

...they're holidays. Holidays are for people, not for God. Why does it make them illegitimate if they coincide with other festivals? Christmas was selected thus (and what festival are u saying coincides with Easter?!!? calculating when Easter is in a year is actually quite complicated...)

Paganism had dozens of Gods, and none of them offered redemption to all...
Strikes me you're trying to dismiss it offhand, which simply doesnt work... You can pull the wool over your eyes (for lack of a better metaphor), but that doesnt hide whats actually there:

What sets Christianity apart from all other religions is Christ.
Folk say all the time on here "och, all major religions are basically the same anyway... you gotta do some stuff and not do other stuff or you're punished. this sucks and shows that God is basically a big old self-centred uncaring goon."
This "obey or suffer" reduction may be true for other religions, but Christianity simply doesnt come under this category.

We live in a world of sin. Each and every person who has ever lived (with the exception of Christ) sins constantly. Sin being the opposite of God, it is God's law that sin is punishable by death.
Yet God loves us all, however he cannot circumvent his own perfect law and leave our punishment unfulfilled.

As he loves us, he wishes us to be with him, but the punishment for our sin must be inflicted. So he does the unthinkable: inflicts the punishment upon himself (well, the Father inflicts his wrath upon the Son, the whole trinity-as-one thing doesnt really make particular sense in terms of our concept of self), the only pure 'innocent' that there is.

The punishment having been carried out, we are free to spend eternity in His infinately good presence... all we gotta do is accept the sacrifice of Christ, the perfect lamb, who died in our place. THIS is Christianity.

Hide all you like. It wont go away. This is Eternal.

Hide all you like. It wont go away. This is Eternal.Preach all you like. It won't give non-believers faith. And if you don't have faith, you simply can't have faith - and you can't be a true Christian, by anyone's standards. Better a heretic than a hypocrite.

Preach all you like. It won't give non-believers faith. And if you don't have faith, you simply can't have faith - and you can't be a true Christian, by anyone's standards. Better a heretic than a hypocrite.

Pessimistic, though I must confess I often feel that way myself ... but ultimately, preaching is not the seed, preaching is merely scattering the seed that is the Word of God. While the seed may wither, or never grow at all, it may grow and flourish and sprout more seedpods. This is the way of things. There is always hope. (Along with Love & Faith, these being the three things that last forever, note the cunning [ha!] tie-in with the original topic of this thread...)

Trying to explain something that transcends the universe using only the laws of the universe simply is not a valid argument. Namely, causality is an artifact of the universe, and does not necesserally apply to anything external to the universe.



...they're holidays. Holidays are for people, not for God. Why does it make them illegitimate if they coincide with other festivals? Christmas was selected thus (and what festival are u saying coincides with Easter?!!? calculating when Easter is in a year is actually quite complicated...)

Paganism had dozens of Gods, and none of them offered redemption to all...
Strikes me you're trying to dismiss it offhand, which simply doesnt work... You can pull the wool over your eyes (for lack of a better metaphor), but that doesnt hide whats actually there:

What sets Christianity apart from all other religions is Christ.
Folk say all the time on here "och, all major religions are basically the same anyway... you gotta do some stuff and not do other stuff or you're punished. this sucks and shows that God is basically a big old self-centred uncaring goon."
This "obey or suffer" reduction may be true for other religions, but Christianity simply doesnt come under this category.

We live in a world of sin. Each and every person who has ever lived (with the exception of Christ) sins constantly. Sin being the opposite of God, it is God's law that sin is punishable by death.
Yet God loves us all, however he cannot circumvent his own perfect law and leave our punishment unfulfilled.

As he loves us, he wishes us to be with him, but the punishment for our sin must be inflicted. So he does the unthinkable: inflicts the punishment upon himself (well, the Father inflicts his wrath upon the Son, the whole trinity-as-one thing doesnt really make particular sense in terms of our concept of self), the only pure 'innocent' that there is.

The punishment having been carried out, we are free to spend eternity in His infinately good presence... all we gotta do is accept the sacrifice of Christ, the perfect lamb, who died in our place. THIS is Christianity.

Hide all you like. It wont go away. This is Eternal.

Holidays are for people i agree, but misleading them into believing they originated from christianity is a completely seperate thing.
What that shows is the worlds effects on anything wihtin the world, such as christianity, turning into something of the same thing as paganism.
What this shows is that paganism and christianity united sometime back to form what we call christianity today.
when i say paganism i should be more specific and say wiccan beliefs in particular.

Yes you are correct to say that we cannot judge universal rules when something is outside the universe. God has morals, and through these morals he has taught us. If he goes and pats himself on the back for being gods son, while he is god, he is in effect showing a sin called pride, which would make god a sinner. are you saying that outside of this universe goda can sin, but it wont be considered sin because he is god? if this is the case then why would he be a hypocrite. Jesus called out the jews in power because they were hypocrits, but meanwhile he himself is one.
what if jesus would have sinned? what if the devil would have made jesus fall?
what would god have done, destroyed jesus? wouldnt that in essence be destroying a piece of himself?
god believes in morals, therefore for him to be a just god he must follow his own morals, which indoubtedly leads to the conclusion that he could not have been at two places at once, showing pride in himself, because it is a sin.

If christianity is the right religion then which branch is the right branch? they all claim their right, they all have valid points, yet they share one common thing, christ.
much is to say about many religions, they all share one common thing, to do good.
i believe it is muhc more important in life to do good, then to pride yourself into believing you will live forever if you believe this one thing.
its selfish.

Ursea are you a Christian? I am and I've been through bad times to but you know what there is always a light at the end of the tunnel. With God on your side you can get through anything.

Unfree People you may not believe but I'm saying you should otherwise you end up someday in a place you never wanted to be in.

Christian? I think the answer would be simple. The way I see it, is there's an afterlife, and if there's a god, okay. Fine, so there's a supreme being. I don't think I should have to have instiutionalized religion tell me how I need to live. Most people can learn right and wrong from their own free will. I'm sorry, but I just find that the human intellilect is more powerful than religion, and I'm sick of religion being such a driving force of the United States. There are just too many things I see that drive me away from Christianity. I want to live the way I feel is right, not how a book tells me to. If you have a problem with that, fine, but I don't think I'm going to go to Hell for being free of religious restraints. If so, I feel it was worth having a clear judgement. Any rational thinker can see that there's too much religion-spawned hate in the world. And besides, if God loves everyone, why am I going to hell for being bisexual? I would really like to know.

If you're going to go on this little exploratory mission of yours, you must have faith that there is something to understand... you must faithfully believe that wisdom is possible, since it can never be achieved. After all, the person who thinks her/himself wise is a fool.

As a Christian I have a few problems with some of the points posted by the Christians...

Ok Christians, there are a LOT of different types of Christians, and some denominations and sects believe that they are NOT the only path to God, but A path to God. If you have faith, then you know that no person has a monopoly on the truth, only God does.

I personally find that comforting, which is an expression of my faith, that not all paths to heaven lead through Jesus. I refuse to accept the notion that Buddists, Moslems and others (there are so many) are going to Hell because they truly believed in their faith, acted according to the tenets of it (and most faiths share the same basic tenets, its the rituals and forms that differ) and may or may not have had access to the teachings of our Faith.

I don't believe a merciful and loving God works that way. And that is the central message of the New Testament. That God is merciful. The New Testament and its teachings are what makes us Christians instead of Jews.

As for the non Chrisitians, according to all of the various Faiths, you must have Faith to reach the Afterlife or next incarnation or whatever. Otherwise there are some penalties (depends on the Faith).

With the universe being so wondrous and essentially infinite, I have no trouble believing that everything is infinitely possible even if I personally cannot see the edge of it.

That is what faith truly is. The ability to accept that some things are possible without requiring proof.

At least that is my opinion.

As for the Christians go (again), I personally believe the Christ doesnt give up on us even in Hell, and that Hell according to the Old and New Testaments is actually more to do with the absence of God rather than the pointless torment of the incorporal soul.

And that in the end, if a soul calls out for mercy, it will be granted by our Merciful God.

As a Christian I have a few problems with some of the points posted by the Christians...

Ok Christians, there are a LOT of different types of Christians, and some denominations and sects believe that they are NOT the only path to God, but A path to God. If you have faith, then you know that no person has a monopoly on the truth, only God does.

I personally find that comforting, which is an expression of my faith, that not all paths to heaven lead through Jesus. I refuse to accept the notion that Buddists, Moslems and others (there are so many) are going to Hell because they truly believed in their faith, acted according to the tenets of it (and most faiths share the same basic tenets, its the rituals and forms that differ) and may or may not have had access to the teachings of our Faith.

I don't believe a merciful and loving God works that way. And that is the central message of the New Testament. That God is merciful. The New Testament and its teachings are what makes us Christians instead of Jews.

As for the non Chrisitians, according to all of the various Faiths, you must have Faith to reach the Afterlife or next incarnation or whatever. Otherwise there are some penalties (depends on the Faith).

With the universe being so wondrous and essentially infinite, I have no trouble believing that everything is infinitely possible even if I personally cannot see the edge of it.

That is what faith truly is. The ability to accept that some things are possible without requiring proof.

At least that is my opinion.

As for the Christians go (again), I personally believe the Christ doesnt give up on us even in Hell, and that Hell according to the Old and New Testaments is actually more to do with the absence of God rather than the pointless torment of the incorporal soul.

And that in the end, if a soul calls out for mercy, it will be granted by our Merciful God.

Am I awake or am I dreaming? I think I finally found a Christian with rational thought... I am pleasantly surprised.

Am I awake or am I dreaming? I think I finally found a Christian with rational thought... I am pleasantly surprised.

some of us try....and some Christians must cling to God.. I just wish those kind of Christians didn't insist that they are the only way

allow me to say that everyone makes mistakes. even Christians and that is why im gonna say: sorry. if i offended then sorry, but this is how i feel. everyone gets angry. there is however a way in which ppl in hell can see or communicate in someways to heaven and back because there is a parable of two ppl. a rich man and the poor one. long story short, poor one believes and goes to heaven, rich one unbeliever hell. rich man sees poor man with i think a prophet or someone of high stature and he asks for water since he is dry and tromented. answer no. want the full story ask and i'll find it.

[QUOTE=King Binks] If you believe he exists and died to forgive your sins, you go to heaven, if you don't... you go to hell. [QUOTE]

Dang I guess I'm going to hell :(

We are not God, God is not everything, God IS however a being far beyond our comprehension. One sin without salvation will lead to hell. Salvation however eliminates hell as the path and replaces it with heaven. Jesus Christ the Son of God is that salvation. "The Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world". Faith in God is better than faith in atheism or secular humanism.


Why?
Why is faith in a God any better than faith in humanity?

What you should have said was that "your faith in your God suits you better than anything else you can imagine"

Just because your imagination is so insular and self driven doesn't mean that everyone who thinks differently from you is wrong.

That's the whole problem with religion (any religion) it's too restrictive, relies on "faith" rather than experience or fact and seems to make those who are religious intolerant of any other viewpoint.

We are not God, God is not everything, God IS however a being far beyond our comprehension. One sin without salvation will lead to hell. Salvation however eliminates hell as the path and replaces it with heaven. Jesus Christ the Son of God is that salvation. "The Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world". Faith in God is better than faith in atheism or secular humanism.
If god is beyond our comprehension how do you know he is not everything ... being you cant comprehend it he could be everything and more

The Spanish Inquisition.
The Crusades.
The Holocaust, many genocides and ethnic cleansing.
The witch trials, various 'witch' tests.
Overenthusiastic evangelism to the point of psychological and/or physical harm.
Targeting and persecution of heretics, or people who don't agree with you.
Smaller issues like censorship, discouragement of innovation and dissent, outpaced population growth, mass suicides, slavery, the list goes on and on...

I'm not blaming these things on the existence of religion in general, but this is definitely 'faith carried too far'.

That is not faith carried too far, that is action or legalism carried too far. Jesus said that actions not done from faith but rather for the purposes of appearances were meaningless. All of the atrocities above (except maybe for the holocost, since I don't think that was done in the name of Christianity) have been attempts by Christians to make the world take on a more Christian appearance. They have mistaken the outside for the inside. If there were really faith in God and the fact that he granted people free will then all the attempts to force conversion by action wouldn't have happened. An attempt to deny others of one of the gifts given to Christians by God is to belittle that gift, and that shows an amazing lack of faith.

Parts of the Bible can be proven so therefore since none of it can be disproven then it must be considered true because part of it is known to be true.


Parts of Anne Rice's Interview with a Vampire can be proven to be true. I can walk around New Orleans and find those places just as she can described them. There is no way to prove or disprove that vampires lurk in the shadows clerverly hiding themselves from mortals via supernatural means. Therefore, the whole book must be considered true. Yeah right. :rolleyes:

(I am not consider faith a sin, but faulty logic is an abomination)

Paganism had dozens of Gods, and none of them offered redemption to all...


Please explain how becoming one with Brahman isn't redemption, which furthermore, is open to all, which Hinduism (which predates both Judaism and Christianity) believes everyone can and will eventually acheive?

If your faith is true, there is no reason to defend it with lies.

P.S.
It is true that many religions have not offered redemption, but also among those that did not there was also no equal, opposite threat of eternal punishment.

It was inspired by God and written by men so therefore God wrote it.

Nonsense.

Faith is stupid is what it is. :D

Parts of the Bible can be proven so therefore since none of it can be disproven then it must be considered true because part of it is known to be true.


The sky is blue. Teckor secretly wants to have sex with old men. Apples grow on trees. The Queen is a martian. Water is wet.

Parts of this are known to be true so therefore by your logic it all must be true. Prove me wrong. PS your word doesnt count.

Correction. Faith is blind. Faith is believing in something you do not see.

Some may call it blind, but hey, faith is always gamble. But you can't sit on the fence either.

some of us try....and some Christians must cling to God.. I just wish those kind of Christians didn't insist that they are the only way

I for one believe Christianity is THE ONLY way. But I don't push my beliefs on others.

I do believe in other religions that they have truth's to some extent, do good get good, do bad get beat. But the only thing that seperates Christianity and the rest, is redemption.

But like you says, there's so many denominations and stuff.

Thats why I don't follow any, I church hop and I read the bible myself and whatever I make of it, it's my religion. I'm responsible for myself when I die. :p

What I dont get is most Christians I know are rational people who demand evidence for almost everything but when it comes to God they have Faith..

<snip>Doubt is Holy.</snip>

Frequently, doubt has little to do with intellectual speculation. Frequently, doubt is a manifestation of my not liking the answer with which I am provided for reasons of self-interest.

It generally runs something like this. I don't like the Judeo-Christian and Muslim traditions because they place constraints on my behaviour that I don't like. Never mind that, as codes of behaviour, they have been proven effective to people that actually follow them, and that I have seen the destructive effects of disregarding them as firm boundaries played out in the lives of hundreds of people around me. I find them restrictive, therefore I would like to find a code that allows me more flexibility.

Until I find one, I call myself a "sceptic", or a "realist". I claim no belief in those things that I cannot quantify in physical measurements, even though my life has been affected by intangible influences, such as emotions in myself and others, from the moment of my conception, much less birth. At some point, I may abandon this brutish mentality of considering nothing but my physical existence and start to ponder the aspects of my life that are less tangible It may start with a simple question, like, "Why do I feel this way when I look at something beautiful, or majestic?" "Why do I consider this wonder of the natural world, or the birth of a baby, 'awe-inspiring'?" I realise, if I am any kind of upright hominid at all, that there are aspects of my life outside of what I can quantify with physical measurements.

So I start exploring the less tangible aspects of my life, and if I am lucky I fall in with others who are doing the same. I look into the writings of the great minds of our age: the structures of the conscious and unconscious mind, Jung's collective unconscious, perhaps even the great philosophers of human existence. The majority opinion is that if there is an answer in life, it is not me. There is something else, an "otherwise".

At that point, unless I am a very great fool indeed, I will reluctantly begin to double back, intellectually, and re-examine those belief systems that I abandoned in my youth, looking at them to see if there is something beneath the rules and regulations I found so restrictive when I was young.

Does any of that sound familiar to anyone?

Frequently, doubt has little to do with intellectual speculation. Frequently, doubt is a manifestation of my not liking the answer with which I am provided for reasons of self-interest.....

Does any of that sound familiar to anyone?

Wow. Do you really have such a poor opinion of humanity? For some doubt had nothing to do with self-interest but rather with questions like why should non-Christisan children or people like Ghandi be consigned to hell. It is not a rejecting of constraints so much as a rejecting of the self-aggrandizement and destructive sense of superiority that comes with following a path which considers itself the one true way.

As Dobbs Town said:
God is everywhere, you are God, I am God, we're all of us God together. So, you want to serve God? Then serve God by serving yourself and your fellows.

Can you even realize the constraints on behavior that come with seeing everything and everyone being both holy and equal to the self, the inherent humility that comes when one truly believes that one's own self and own beliefs are in no way superior to anything else? Love and compassion then become the rule, an ultimate constraint, but a burden which is freely accepted.