NationStates Jolt Archive

In London knife killings are 4-1 compared to guns and in Edinburgh its 20-1. Gun crime has the most media attention and the most funding. It is massivly undereported and little is being done by the government to combat it. So why do people moan on about guns when knives are the main killers?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/3736400.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/3747206.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/3747120.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/3747268.stm

I guess the idea is that knives have other uses besides killing. This is interesting because it show that if you make it hard to get guns, people will find other ways to kill.

You're just as dead either way, and it looks like they have a bit more of a problem with knives...

But guns kill people!
No, people kill people.
But they're evil!
*sigh*

you know what wopuld alleviate this?

government required martial arts training

you know what wopuld alleviate this?

government required martial arts trainingNo, no. We should obviously ban all knives longer than 1/2 inch. :D

[/sarcasm]

No, no. We should obviously ban all knives longer than 1/2 inch. :D

[/sarcasm]
no no no

they should require everyone to have a knife longer than 2 inches so everyone will be protected and no one will want to attack anyone!

[/sarcasm]

no no no

they should require everyone to have a knife longer than 2 inches so everyone will be protected and no one will want to attack anyone!

[/sarcasm]Of course! But the ones with serrated edges, now those are dangerous. Let's give one away free to everyone! :D

One thing that makes knives different from guns, apart from their everyday usefulness, is that to kill someone with a knife you have to get within arm's reach. So even if the victim is unarmed, *e still has a chance to defend h*self - perhaps by grabbing the attacker's knife arm and holding on like a rottweiler while screaming h* bloody head off until help comes, for example. None of this killing from 20 paces stuff; the attacker has to come within range of attack h*self.

We should be able to carry pepper spray or a tazor in the UK for self defence. Maybe people would buy those instead of carrying meat cleavers to "protect themselves"

You have to be one cold-blooded bastard to kill someone with a knife. Pulling a trigger is rather impersonal and mechanical. But plunging a knife into someone's chest or slicing their throat, that takes a hard heart.

Of course! But the ones with serrated edges, now those are dangerous. Let's give one away free to everyone! :D

Yep. Just like a bayonet lug makes a rifle more dangerous. Lets all run around screaming and yelling like Chicken Little!
:rolleyes:

I got arrested for carrying a knife, a paperthin practical one for work but "its an offensive weapon" apperently.

Oh, and everyone here seems to have assumed that handguns are used at an "impersonable" distances. They are not. Chances are that if you use a handgun, you'll see the victems face, usually pretty clearly.

You have to be one cold-blooded bastard to kill someone with a knife. Pulling a trigger is rather impersonal and mechanical. But plunging a knife into someone's chest or slicing their throat, that takes a hard heart.

No, it doesn´t, try it with your house pet!
It´s fun!

Whats weird is a few days after that panorama thing was shown on tv there was a report on increasing gun crime by the same channel.

Yes... and the knives with teh serrated-inch blade and the word K-bar on them are just for choppin f*ckin veggies. :rolleyes:

Yep, just like machetes are used for chopping down the chopping through the tropical tree's of manchester

Guns are focused on because basically, aside from hunting, what other practical use do they have? Trap shooting and whatnot doesn't count; it doesn't accomplish anything of use. Additionally, impersonal or not, it is much easier logistically to kill a person with a gun than with a knife. A man with a handgun and good aim can take down several people in a very short amount of time; you would have to be a supreme martial artist to do as much damage as quickly with a knife. And really, experienced martial artists aren't generally the kind of people who would go around on a random killing spree.

I carry about a four-inch, half-serrated knife with me at all times. Not for self-defense; that's what my study of martial arts is for. It is, I find, one of the most supremely useful tools a person can carry; I use it at least two or three times a day, often much more, just to aid with mundane tasks.

Now, I'll agree, guns tend to be focused on overmuch; people's paranoia about them makes for easy sensationalism in the news, which equals ratings. And, with a few exceptions, I don't really support gun control. Still doesn't mean I've any use, fondness for, or intention of ever owning a gun. I'll stick with my knife, thanks.

Oh, and everyone here seems to have assumed that handguns are used at an "impersonable" distances. They are not. Chances are that if you use a handgun, you'll see the victems face, usually pretty clearly.
but you yourself are technically dealing the final blow, the bullet it, a seperate entity from the gun you are holding. with a knife you actually have to hit them yourself

Guns are focused on because basically, aside from hunting, what other practical use do they have? Trap shooting and whatnot doesn't count; it doesn't accomplish anything of use. Additionally, impersonal or not, it is much easier logistically to kill a person with a gun than with a knife. A man with a handgun and good aim can take down several people in a very short amount of time; you would have to be a supreme martial artist to do as much damage as quickly with a knife. And really, experienced martial artists aren't generally the kind of people who would go around on a random killing spree.

I carry about a four-inch, half-serrated knife with me at all times. Not for self-defense; that's what my study of martial arts is for. It is, I find, one of the most supremely useful tools a person can carry; I use it at least two or three times a day, often much more, just to aid with mundane tasks.

Now, I'll agree, guns tend to be focused on overmuch; people's paranoia about them makes for easy sensationalism in the news, which equals ratings. And, with a few exceptions, I don't really support gun control. Still doesn't mean I've any use, fondness for, or intention of ever owning a gun. I'll stick with my knife, thanks.

Could you name a few uses that come around in everyday life? I don't see that many & why wouldn't an "experienced martial artist" go on a random killing spree? They can be just as unhinged as everyone else

In London knife killings are 4-1 compared to guns and in Edinburgh its 20-1. Gun crime has the most media attention and the most funding. It is massivly undereported and little is being done by the government to combat it. So why do people moan on about guns when knives are the main killers?
It is probably *because* guns are so tightly controlled that knives are so much more popular. If everyone had a pistol, or several, lying around the house, who in a fit of rage would pick up a knife or a heavy object when something so much more efficient is readily available? One has to consider how much more gun crime there would be if there were no controls.

Also, I doubt that most of the knives used in murders in the UK are combat knives. Probably just kitchen knives being turned towards a deadly purpose. Guns are designed for killing people, and are a very efficient method of doing so, hence the need for regulation. Knives generally have a whole different primary purpose. Thus making a fuss about that would be stupid.

You have to be one cold-blooded bastard to kill someone with a knife. Pulling a trigger is rather impersonal and mechanical. But plunging a knife into someone's chest or slicing their throat, that takes a hard heart.

Speak for yourself. I would consider it much more cold-blooded to kill someone the 'easy way' with a gun. If done out of reach there is no way for the person to defend themselves and no 'honor' in the kill. Plunging a knife into someones chest says, "I value your life so much that I am willing to risk my own to take it from you." Shooting someone from accross the room says, "You aren't worth any effort other than the twitch of a single finger and what it takes to hold this rod."

Speak for yourself. I would consider it much more cold-blooded to kill someone the 'easy way' with a gun. If done out of reach there is no way for the person to defend themselves and no 'honor' in the kill. Plunging a knife into someones chest says, "I value your life so much that I am willing to risk my own to take it from you." Shooting someone from accross the room says, "You aren't worth any effort other than the twitch of a single finger and what it takes to hold this rod."

I am sure that is exactly what murderers think. I am sure they value the lives of the people they stab. They stab them because of respect.

[/sarcasm]

Speak for yourself. I would consider it much more cold-blooded to kill someone the 'easy way' with a gun. If done out of reach there is no way for the person to defend themselves and no 'honor' in the kill. Plunging a knife into someones chest says, "I value your life so much that I am willing to risk my own to take it from you." Shooting someone from accross the room says, "You aren't worth any effort other than the twitch of a single finger and what it takes to hold this rod."

Jesus. I'm talking about people murdering people in a modern and supposedly civil world with a knife. You sound like this is some gladiator match. There is no honor in murder. Tell the family of the victim who got stabbed during a botched mugging that "at least the mugger valued him enough to evicerate him rather than shoot him in the face."

I want a machete...just because they're cool. A friend of mine went to....uh.....dang, for the life of me I can't remember what country it was now, I want to say El Salvador but I'm pretty sure that wasn't it. Anyway, he bought a machete down there and brought it back. Not like you can't just go to Target and buy one, but still. It adds to the cool factor if you get it from a Central/South American country. :p

Ok, I'll stop rambling now.

Could you name a few uses that come around in everyday life? I don't see that many & why wouldn't an "experienced martial artist" go on a random killing spree? They can be just as unhinged as everyone else
Opening letters, cutting threads when sewing, peeling fruit, prying lids off cans, pruning my plants, cutting vinyl tape (I do stage tech work, and you /have/ to cut it), removing tags from new clothes, stripping insulation from wire (/only/ in the absence of the proper tool), unclogging certain types of tubing, getting rid of the rough dead skin that hangs on after getting a cut, opening stubborn containers...need I go on? If you don't lead the kind of life that requires such things on a regular basis, there's no need to carry one. I, however, do.

If you go to a /good/ martial arts school, and look at the higher-end students, I will bet you won't find unhinged kids looking for fights. Useful martial arts, the kind that actually gives you some benefit in a fight, require a high degree of discipline and a great deal of mental strength. Any instructor who knows anything will weed out those who don't have that, before teaching them anything really dangerous. Personal example: my own instructor adamantly refuses to teach a person certain techniques until he knows that person well enough that he trusts them with the knowledge. Any good instructor will weed out those out for blood, and bad instructors tend not to be able to teach people the kind of skill that would allow them to go on such a rampage.
As a side note, "black belt factory" schools, that will teach anyone with the money, and basically guarantee a black belt within a couple of years (or even sometimes, in months), are worthless.

I am sure that is exactly what murderers think. I am sure they value the lives of the people they stab. They stab them because of respect.

[/sarcasm]

I never said they stab them out of 'respect', nor did I mean to imply that they were somehow noble or that it was a concious decision. I said that a person willing to risk their own life for something (anything values that thing more than someone who does not. In the same way that a person willing to risk their own life to save yours values it more so too does a person willing to risk their own life to take it.

You can't kill someone with a knife without being personally involved in the matter (unless we are talking about some bizarre mishap with a steak knife) it's a definite attempt to take that persons life whatever the cost. You can however shoot thirty bullets in a neighbourhood in a shootout and kill plenty of people that mean nothing to you. The first is certainly harder, but I think the second is much more 'cold-blooded'.

No, no. We should obviously ban all knives longer than 1/2 inch. :DDon't joke - in the UK you can't buy things like screwdrivers till you're 16. I kid you not. Bloody daft, but there you are.
One of the problems with knives is the users' perception of the damage inflicted. Apparently many knife wielding youths are unaware of how dangerous a knife wound is. They grasp (probably from the A-team where a single shot fells any bad guy) that guns are dangerous, but fail to see that a slash with a knife can open several major blood vessels without actually penetrating the body more than an inch.
Get stabbed in the voonerables and you can add several major organs to the list as well.
Perhaps teaching anatomy could be made really interesting to teenagers by getting 'em to try to draw a slash on a body without cutting anything serious.

Okay, look: the primary reason that stabbings outnumber shootings so much in the UK is that last time I checked, civilians were not allowed to own firearms. Therefor, you're more likely to be stabbed with a perfectly legal (ish) bladed weapon than an illegal firearm.

Okay, look: the primary reason that stabbings outnumber shootings so much in the UK is that last time I checked, civilians were not allowed to own firearms.
Sort of. There are ways, but in general few people own guns. There were less than two million licensed firearms in the country in 2000 and the number is probably lower now following various recent changes in the rules. http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Gun-politics-in-the-UK sums up most of this fairly well.

Therefor, you're more likely to be stabbed with a perfectly legal (ish) bladed weapon than an illegal firearm.

Well, yeah, not many people stab with guns.

Well, yeah, not many people stab with guns.
LOL

Violent crime in the USA is usually unarmed, but guns are a bit more popular than knives when a weapon is used.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/wuvc01.htm
One has to consider how much more gun crime there would be if there were no controls.Various crime rates tend to skyrocket after strict gun control is put into place...Then again, I haven't found before and after statistics to see if that was a delayed cutoff of an existing rise or an effect of the gun control.
Guns are designed for killing peopleA gun that is sold as a target shooter and not as a police, military, or hunting gun is made to kill people?
and are a very efficient method of doing so"It is estimated that in the US, there are about 190,000 injuries per year relating to gunshot wounds (suicidal, homicidal, or accidental). Overall, about 20% of these cases are fatal. Gunshot wounds to the heart are among the most serious, with an overall mortality rate of about 70-80%. On a more positive note, of people with gunshot wounds to the heart who arrive at the hospital with signs of life, there is a survival rate of 70-90%." - http://www.diagnosisheart.com/showarticle.php?articleid=280
"The mortality rate from gunshot wounds to the brain is now at about 35%" - http://www.tbindc.org/registry/projdetail.php?projid=19
"[...] patients with penetrating gunshot wounds of the abdomen [...] without vascular injuries [...] the survival rate was 97.3%." - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=88339430
"[...]patients with penetrating gunshot wounds of the abdomen causing visceral or vascular injuries [...] The overall survival rate for the series was 88.3%" - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=88339430