NationStates Jolt Archive

I watched the first epsiode of a BBC documentary called "The Power of Dreams" last night.

It introduced to me a guy called Leo Strauss, who apparently is considered a father of NeoConservatism. Part of his philosophy, it said in this program, is that the US should construct myths to feed its people, to keep them cohesive and strong.

Strauss' pupils and followers including Paul Wolfowitz and Donny Rumsfeld then went on to create these myths, starting with "The USSR is full of secret weaponry intent on destroying the USA etc".

I've always wondered whether the christian fundamentalist pro-militarist leaders in the US believed what they were saying. Now I discover that they follow a philosophically justified path of deliberately misinforming average Joe Q Mississippian (IQ 85).

I've also always wondered why so many americans believe that only the huge military might of the US is keeping the free world free. It's because people have been telling them so for years.

Amazing isn't it?

of course they dont know they are being lied to, if bush told them 2+2=5 they would probably believe it

they jsut throw the wool over their eyes on any right wing matters

its like asking if christians know they are being lied to

in any empirical annylisis we can conclude that these groups are being misled, but in their own interpretations of reality they have all the proof they need, be it in the form of scripture or a president

Why doesn't someone say to them "this guy called Leo Strauss told them to lie to you, look, here it is in black and white. Here's some film of them telling everyone what a great guy Leo Strauss is"?

its like asking if christians know they are being lied to

in any empirical annylisis we can conclude that these groups are being misled, but in their own interpretations of reality they have all the proof they need, be it in the form of scripture or a president

But at least christianity can possibly sometimes be sincere. In the neoCon scriptures it says "Lie unto the people - make stuff up to scare them". And they *still* believe it.

Why doesn't someone say to them "this guy called Leo Strauss told them to lie to you, look, here it is in black and white. Here's some film of them telling everyone what a great guy Leo Strauss is"?

People have a habit of disregarding evidence and sticking to their views no matter what.

Ah, the power of brainwashing... all presidents use it.

Ah, the power of brainwashing... all presidents use it.

I just can't get over the fact that they have a manual that says

1 - brainwash people
2 - make like you haven't made it all up

or similar, and people suck it down. When Blair lied to the UK about WMD, everyone said he was lying. I don't think there is a single person in the UK who doesn't think he was lying, and I've never met anyone who didn't assume immediately at the time that he was lying.

Are they being lied to if they don't want or don't care to know the truth?

Remember Churchill when thinking of the IQ of the average voter!

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. "

;)

When Blair lied to the UK about WMD, everyone said he was lying. I don't think there is a single person in the UK who doesn't think he was lying, and I've never met anyone who didn't assume immediately at the time that he was lying.

Well some will argue that he wasn't lieing but was immensely stupid to believe such shoddy intelligence. Personally, I think he's a lieing bastard.

But at least christianity can possibly sometimes be sincere. In the neoCon scriptures it says "Lie unto the people - make stuff up to scare them". And they *still* believe it.

i was comparing the psychosis of the follower, not the benevelence of the institution, though i would contend that any organized religion is counter to the spiritual enlightenment of man.

I watched the first epsiode of a BBC documentary called "The Power of Dreams" last night.

It introduced to me a guy called Leo Strauss, who apparently is considered a father of NeoConservatism. Part of his philosophy, it said in this program, is that the US should construct myths to feed its people, to keep them cohesive and strong.

I'm a neo-con, yet for some reason you seem to misunderstand that I know that they are lying to the public, and I actually agree with the idea as I agree with the notion that the public lack the spine to deal with reality.

I'm also acutely aware that all politicians "bend the truth" to suit their goals, I just agree with neo-con goals. (You do understand that neo-cons are generally aligned with viewpoints such as Hobbesian and Machiavellian concepts, right?)

I'm a neo-con, yet for some reason you seem to misunderstand that I know that they are lying to the public, and I actually agree with the idea as I agree with the notion that the public lack the spine to deal with reality.

I'm also acutely aware that all politicians "bend the truth" to suit their goals, I just agree with neo-con goals. (You do understand that neo-cons are generally aligned with viewpoints such as Hobbesian and Machiavellian concepts, right?)

understand though that you represent a rare intelligence in an anti intellectual movement

understand though that you represent a rare intelligence in an anti intellectual movement

I wouldn't consider people who are in the "need to be lied to" of any political pole actually fall into the same category as the leaders instigating it. If they shared the same opinion, you could just tell them the truth ;)

I really doubt that there are actually more neo-cons than old style conservatives, it's more a product of party power brokers than majority supporter viewpoint.

Personally i would expect a more moderate somewhat traditionalist conservative like McCain to beat anyone in a general election.

Ah, the power of brainwashing... all presidents use it.

And the whole American education system is evolved from one designed purely to create obedient, non-questioning citizens.

And you don't have to believe that because I haven't got any evidence to show it and I can't remember where I first read it - the documents are out there somewhere though.

I'm a neo-con, yet for some reason you seem to misunderstand that I know that they are lying to the public, and I actually agree with the idea as I agree with the notion that the public lack the spine to deal with reality.

I'm also acutely aware that all politicians "bend the truth" to suit their goals, I just agree with neo-con goals. (You do understand that neo-cons are generally aligned with viewpoints such as Hobbesian and Machiavellian concepts, right?)

Fair point - it's the neo-cons who are lying, and everyone else who is being lied to. Just a question of whether you believe it.

I

Now I discover that they follow a philosophically justified path of deliberately misinforming average Joe Q Mississippian (IQ 85).



Amazing isn't it?

It's amazing that someone who claims we are being lied to included such an obvious falsehood in their post. Can you say irony?

Americans are dumb rich spoiled kids.
They are the most dumb people on earth, it´s incredible how a nation can be so stupid. But it´s ok, their money and their military power compensates their stupidity and when they begin to develop some kind of consciouness, mr. Bush just asks his good friend Osama to destroy another building and theeeere they go again being just dumb.
Fear rules and americans are slaves of it, they are even willing to accept lies in order to protect themselves against a world that hates them.

Rather strongly put, but yes, governments of all types throughout history have been well aware of the unifying effects of fear.

What are the NeoCon goals if you please? I have read that the main one is unilateral power, is that it.

Americans are dumb rich spoiled kids.
They are the most dumb people on earth, it´s incredible how a nation can be so stupid. But it´s ok, their money and their military power compensates their stupidity and when they begin to develop some kind of consciouness, mr. Bush just asks his good friend Osama to destroy another building and theeeere they go again being just dumb.
Fear rules and americans are slaves of it, they are even willing to accept lies in order to protect themselves against a world that hates them.


Your post is just about as incomprehensible as your name. Gross generalities, such as you have portrayed, do not place you in the realm of the "enlightened". In fact, it makes you appear far more "stupid and spoiled" than the Americans you claim to despise. If you are an American, then you are sadly misinformed as to who Americans are. If you are not American, then you sadly, and blindly, are following someone else's steriotypical rhetoric. Either way, you sound like a child stomping his/her feet and crying hysterically because someone took your lollipop.

I hope you are just trolling. If not, then may I suggest some serious educational, as well as psychological, help.

It was actually called the 'Power of Nightmares' and it was frightening.
To see the implied irony that Islamist and NeoConservative Thought have very, very close ancestry....

I just can't get over the fact that they have a manual that says

1 - brainwash people
2 - make like you haven't made it all up

or similar, and people suck it down. When Blair lied to the UK about WMD, everyone said he was lying. I don't think there is a single person in the UK who doesn't think he was lying, and I've never met anyone who didn't assume immediately at the time that he was lying.

well, over here we have a media that reports on stories like "did the president successfully convince people of his story?", rather than "the president is full of shit, here's documentary evidence". the closest we have to that is the daily show. so yeah, people here are rather politically naive when it comes to believing their rulers lies, but the situation is made much worse by the corporate media pandering to that naivete and letting the public discourse be shaped by propaganda and buzzwords. nobody informs the people en mass that they are being lied to - nobody holding the 'credibility' of mainstream tv access anyway.

I'm a neo-con, yet for some reason you seem to misunderstand that I know that they are lying to the public, and I actually agree with the idea as I agree with the notion that the public lack the spine to deal with reality.

I'm also acutely aware that all politicians "bend the truth" to suit their goals, I just agree with neo-con goals. (You do understand that neo-cons are generally aligned with viewpoints such as Hobbesian and Machiavellian concepts, right?)

But the fact is that Neo Conservative views are not about dealing with reality. The Documentary said that the two pinnacles of society, under Neo Conservatives, were religion and the belief in the nations duty to fight in a battle of good vs evil. However, in reality, the idea of good vs evil in the political world has no meaning whatsoever.

I am so glad the liberals never lie to voters...

Your post is just about as incomprehensible as your name. Gross generalities, such as you have portrayed, do not place you in the realm of the "enlightened". In fact, it makes you appear far more "stupid and spoiled" than the Americans you claim to despise. If you are an American, then you are sadly misinformed as to who Americans are. If you are not American, then you sadly, and blindly, are following someone else's steriotypical rhetoric. Either way, you sound like a child stomping his/her feet and crying hysterically because someone took your lollipop.

I hope you are just trolling. If not, then may I suggest some serious educational, as well as psychological, help.

I agree I am being rather steriotypical, but it´s just to point out obvious truth that the entire world knows and you refuse to accept.
Americans are being manipulated by fear and more and more lies are being told so they can be more afraid and everytime people start to get over it and return to their normal lives, there´s another "orange alert" or something and even though some stuff is obviously lies, you accept it because it makes you feel safer.
That because you are just spoilled, americans don´t want to believe that are normal people and that actions have consequences, you want to believe you are better then everyone and that´s just not true, you are just richer, nothing more. You wanted to believe that giving weapons and training to the Al Qaeda, so they could help you against USRR would not come back to haunt you, but it did.
Just like you though that a war were like "ok, so we go into the country, everyone loves and yippie yay, let´s be happy". Not true. People hate you. All the world hates you and the body count is going up and still you don´t change your attitude because you are dumb and spoilled. You belive every lie out there because these lies say "you are stronger and people is jeallous, the way to win is kicking everyone butt". Politicians are using both the "americans are supermen" myth and the "be afraid" myth to create loyal citzens.
You know it´s a lie, but you believe.
Why?
No answer but "you are just dumb"

I agree I am being rather steriotypical, but it´s just to point out obvious truth that the entire world knows and you refuse to accept.
Americans are being manipulated by fear and more and more lies are being told so they can be more afraid and everytime people start to get over it and return to their normal lives, there´s another "orange alert" or something and even though some stuff is obviously lies, you accept it because it makes you feel safer.
That because you are just spoilled, americans don´t want to believe that are normal people and that actions have consequences, you want to believe you are better then everyone and that´s just not true, you are just richer, nothing more. You wanted to believe that giving weapons and training to the Al Qaeda, so they could help you against USRR would not come back to haunt you, but it did.
Just like you though that a war were like "ok, so we go into the country, everyone loves and yippie yay, let´s be happy". Not true. People hate you. All the world hates you and the body count is going up and still you don´t change your attitude because you are dumb and spoilled. You belive every lie out there because these lies say "you are stronger and people is jeallous, the way to win is kicking everyone butt". Politicians are using both the "americans are supermen" myth and the "be afraid" myth to create loyal citzens.
You know it´s a lie, but you believe.
Why?
No answer but "you are just dumb"

you really cant be mad at the american people though, its really not their fault

they have a hideous education system and a super idealistic anti-intellectual society.

understand though that you represent a rare intelligence in an anti intellectual movement


There arent a thousand people in the neocon movement.

It is a cabal, not a movement, and most republicans havent the slightest idea what a neoconservative is, much less a basic understand of what neocons believe.

The leaders of nazi germany were all very competent and intelligent men, as are the leaders of the neoconservative cabal.

I am so glad the liberals never lie to voters...
But of course. Surely that's what having ethical standards is all about? Neo-conservatives view everything as being subject to expediency.

I know, it's just like The Matrix.

But the fact is that Neo Conservative views are not about dealing with reality. The Documentary said that the two pinnacles of society, under Neo Conservatives, were religion and the belief in the nations duty to fight in a battle of good vs evil. However, in reality, the idea of good vs evil in the political world has no meaning whatsoever.

Then the documentary was lying to you, lol, oh fancy that.

Religion is not a core of neo-conservatism, nationalism on the other hand is, one of the problems is that a lot of the people who attack neo-cons attach it to other meanings like your religious typs.

It's predominantly an aggressive foreign policy with a more liberal economic policy than your paleoconservatives. It's basically a policy of imperialism, similar to your old style british conservatives like Churchill, or Teddy's progressive policy.

The main point I disagree with them on is undaunting support of Taiwan, I think it should be reincorporated into China, but besides that, I agree on most near every point.

it's too bad that the world doesn't have the communicative apparatus to reach each other, solve problems on a one-to-one basis, and decide our own futures instead of having them dictated to us by the priveleged few.

oh, wait....


:X :X :X

well, do you know that you believe in the biggest fraud in history?

Do you know why Communism will not work on a national scale? Because of this little thing called "greed." I want to make more money than you and I will do almost anything to ensure I do.

Life is a bitch isn't it?

Now, go move to Cuba and expierance Communism first hand.

well, do you know that you believe in the biggest fraud in history?

Do you know why Communism will not work on a national scale? Because of this little thing called "greed." I want to make more money than you and I will do almost anything to ensure I do.

Life is a bitch isn't it?

Now, go move to Cuba and expierance Communism first hand.



There are, you know, about 500 communists in the US.

I'm a neo-con, yet for some reason you seem to misunderstand that I know that they are lying to the public, and I actually agree with the idea as I agree with the notion that the public lack the spine to deal with reality.

I'm also acutely aware that all politicians "bend the truth" to suit their goals, I just agree with neo-con goals. (You do understand that neo-cons are generally aligned with viewpoints such as Hobbesian and Machiavellian concepts, right?)
If the public lacks the spine to deal with reality as you see it then share your reality with others who see it your way and don't expect it from anyone else, much less for it to be theirs. You don't have the cornerstone on it and sound much arrogant in your statement. It doesn't preclude you a spine at all to assume the least is the most of your political/sociopsychological opposition, it in fact weakens you. You have a reality from your angle and faculty and it doesn't include everyone else's, and your decisions regarding such are are as limited and capable as such and no more.
As decisions go regarding the populace here the idea of democracy is still (although whittling greatly) in action and the last thing anyone that adheres to such standards is someone who thinks that people are too spineless to make a decision or handle a situation with the information given. Such is the way of deception, literally, which is a threat by nature to the populace, since anyone who chooses deliberately to deceive the public and is capable of it is already in breach of the integrity of the position they're in. There's not much preventing someone who thinks that way to stop making decisions in the "favor of the governed" and instead the "favor of the governing".
And don't forget Trotsky in your alignment.

well, do you know that you believe in the biggest fraud in history?

Do you know why Communism will not work on a national scale? Because of this little thing called "greed." I want to make more money than you and I will do almost anything to ensure I do.

Life is a bitch isn't it?

Now, go move to Cuba and expierance Communism first hand.

what's coming to an end as a part of the enlightenment process is the notion of objectifying the external reality as separate parts of a whole that need to be assigned arbitrary values to be traded. evolve.

But of course. Surely that's what having ethical standards is all about? Neo-conservatives view everything as being subject to expediency.
Expediency .... time = money?
The quicker the lie gets out the longer people have to mull it over, 'til it joins the vernacular?

As decisions go regarding the populace here the idea of democracy is still (although whittling greatly) in action and the last thing anyone that adheres to such standards is someone who thinks that people are too spineless to make a decision or handle a situation with the information given.

Every politician thinks it, no politician says it, at least while they still are, I saw Clinton noted that he had always had trouble trying to deal with the polar american population that predominantly sees a world of good and bad when in reality it doesn't exist. It's by no means monopolised by one perspective.

You have a reality from your angle and faculty and it doesn't include everyone else's, and your decisions regarding such are are as limited and capable as such and no more.

There is no other reality on many of these issues, there are the informed and then there are the uninformed (which make up the vast majority), and from that, within the grounds of the informed, there are other perspectives on how to approach the same problems, take Kerry, his difference to Bush in many areas is approach not issue, they see the same problems, they have a different approach in how to deal with them.

I don't, not understand the left, i disagree with the left on a great many issues, and I know they disagree with the right on a great many, a great many on the left emanate this aura of arrogance in regards to the right, as though you believe they are that way not by choice but by brainwashing and ignorance.

I'm a neo-con, yet for some reason you seem to misunderstand that I know that they are lying to the public, and I actually agree with the idea as I agree with the notion that the public lack the spine to deal with reality.

I'm also acutely aware that all politicians "bend the truth" to suit their goals, I just agree with neo-con goals. (You do understand that neo-cons are generally aligned with viewpoints such as Hobbesian and Machiavellian concepts, right?)


I don't, not understand the left, i disagree with the left on a great many issues, and I know they disagree with the right on a great many, a great many on the left emanate this aura of arrogance in regards to the right, as though you believe they are that way not by choice but by brainwashing and ignorance.

Emphasis mine.

Now, in your earlier post, you say that you agree with a policy where the main means of control IS IN LYING TO THE PEOPLE. Then you say that you don't understand where the left gets the idea that the right is that way because of ignorance and brain-washing??

WHAT THE HELL IS THE POINT OF LYING TO PEOPLE OTHER THAN TO KEEP THEM IGNORANT?

Now, in your earlier post, you say that you agree with a policy where the main means of control IS IN LYING TO THE PEOPLE. Then you say that you don't understand where the left gets the idea that the right is that way because of ignorance and brain-washing??

WHAT THE HELL IS THE POINT OF LYING TO PEOPLE OTHER THAN TO KEEP THEM IGNORANT?

I did not have sexual relations with that woman?

How many people actually know that Kosovo was never approved by the UN? or that all the nations in Europe didn't want to go there in the first place but were railroaded by Clinton when talking about the evils of Bush?

I think you misunderstand me, I think 80%+, well i know 80%+ of people are stupid (and perhaps I'm underestimating), and I also know all sides will lie when it is necessary, both sides are equally responsible and equally guilty.
The odd part here is most of the stuff they actually do is quite transparent if you dig deep enough, as it usually ends up on public record anyway.

It's also no great secret that western society has been shielded from the far more harsh reality of most of the rest of the world, that we are now being forced to interact with on a not so peaceful manner.

I however don't buy the, it's all one great big conspiracy from one issue to the next, and to be honest Bush is not a bona-fide neo-conservative, he has a lot of neocon leanings, but his views are in opposition on a couple key point, namely the PRC-Taiwan and Israel-Palestine, the same two issues I agree with Bush on.

If Karl Rove had his way, Bush would be nowhere as near as honest as he really is. He's an awful public speaker, but he's really quite a stand up guy, and honest often too his own detriment, something that is rare in a politician.

No, 80+% of people are not stupid. Uninformed, yes, disenfranchised, yes, ignorant, yes, but not stupid. And keeping them that way(uninformed, I mean) isn't helping anything other than to keep the elite (politicians, corporations, etc.) in power. What kind of system are we running when we'll vote for people because their lies are more palatable to us than the opponent's? When we acknowledge that the majority of the promises that politicians make are either a) impossible or b) going to be abandoned as soon as they take office? When we IGNORE that they've lied to us?

I'm not saying that the administration can't lie to us, nor even that they shouldn't lie to us; in the interest of national security, some truths must be postponed, not forgotten. For instance, why are some truths about WORLD WAR II just now coming to light? Unfortunately, my memory sucks, so if anyone else remembers anything to back up that claim, please post it.

In my opinion, the worst crime a government can commit against it's people, the crime from which all other crimes they can commit stems, is to keep them ignorant.

I'm a neo-con, yet for some reason you seem to misunderstand that I know that they are lying to the public, and I actually agree with the idea as I agree with the notion that the public lack the spine to deal with reality.

I'm also acutely aware that all politicians "bend the truth" to suit their goals, I just agree with neo-con goals. (You do understand that neo-cons are generally aligned with viewpoints such as Hobbesian and Machiavellian concepts, right?)

I'd have to agree with this. Though Bush is the worst thing to hit social issues (environmental, civil rights, equality, education, welfare, health care) since... well... anyone... (even Hitler was better overall in these areas), he's right in squandering away the middle class' tax money on various wars in uncivilized (and undemocratic) regions. Besides, it's not like we had anything better to do with the money, right?
Onto Iran! Then to [insertnamehere]stan!

And the whole American education system is evolved from one designed purely to create obedient, non-questioning citizens.

And you don't have to believe that because I haven't got any evidence to show it and I can't remember where I first read it - the documents are out there somewhere though.


hmmmmm...doesn't the first part smack you of being slightly communist in the way of creating citizens who shall not question the system? oohhhhh now theres a thought... :D

[QUOTE=Rhellis]No, 80+% of people are not stupid. Uninformed, yes, disenfranchised, yes, ignorant, yes, but not stupid.

Ignorant + uninformed + disenfranchised + [dogmatic] + [average IQ under 120] + [never examining facts] + [lacking in skepticism] + [83% believe in virgin birth, 38% deny evolution, 45+% have spotted elvis/UFOs] = STUPID.

I'd safely say about 90% of people are stupid, given my ranking in numerous aptitude tests. Simply knowing the facts isn't enough. In the end, you either are smart, or just weren't given the gift of intellectual ability.

I include myself in that 90%, not due to my stupidity, but due to my lack of information.

hmmmmm...doesn't the first part smack you of being slightly communist in the way of creating citizens who shall not question the system? oohhhhh now theres a thought... :D

It's completely evident in class room situations. I am consistently lambasted by my peers for demanding proof for various theorems and documents. If I weren't lucky enough to be based in a city-costal private school environment (city + costal = liberal education; liberal being an equivocal term), I'm sure the teachers would have harassed me for questioning things as well.

I am reminded deeply of Sun-tzu, keeping the masses ignorant of your intentions, hurrying them this way, then that. Give them instructions, but do not explain them. Ensure obediance, ensure loyalty, inspire fear and awe but make them love you. Treat your troops like children.

Simply put the Neo-con ideals come from that of Old-style generalship. This is no way to run a nation, but it is a nearly perfect way to run a war. Seems fitting that the Neo-cons are obsessed with resolving anything that can't be lied to with a war.

Its kind of a pity they're so stinkin bad at it ;) Rumsfeld has got to be one of the worst "generals" I have ever seen. He half-assed his way into Iraq, and couldn't even halfass his way back out again. The handling of Afganistan was mildly effective but done on the cheap, which may still come back to haunt us.

Seriously people, they even had to lie about how good Rummy was, even as his own generals were screaming at him about those little "messy" details like looting and unchecked border crossings. Like the Warloards of Afganistan, who knew they were drug-smuggling butchers? Oh wait, EVERYONE.

If they NeoCons were BETTER at lying, if they were actually GOOD at fighting wars, than I might consider supporting them. The sad part is they simply suck at both. They rely entirely on the pathetic nature of our opponents on the battlefield and the apathy at home. If either one were to turn around, should we actually face a competent foe or an interested public, the Neocon movement would be swept from the nation like a foul wind.

I dunno. I'm actually starting to come around on afghanistan.

By enforcing democracy they can marginalise the warlords and gently nudge the country's cultural evolution. But it would still be wise to keep lots of troops there.