NationStates Jolt Archive

Since, religion may form the basis of many moral and ethical decisions for casting policy, I’m expanding upon some earlier threads aimed at increasing the understanding of others’ worldviews. If you have come here to tell others that your worldview is better than others, please take your commentary elsewhere. You’re not going to convince anyone. What I want to see here is reasoned discussion to enable all of us to understand each other better.

This is an international and inherently pluralistic medium. Respect yourselves and each other.
Answer in as detailed and informative manner as possible, please. No flaming. The idea of this is to share in worldviews, not to beat one another over the head with mindless drivel about how much better your god (or lack-thereof) is. If I’ve left out your religion, I apologize.



1) Do you place faith and believe in a religion?
a. Do you believe strongly toward one religion over another?
b. If No, do your leanings favor one religious area over another?

2) How did you come to believe as you do?
a. What was the source of inspiration (or lack therof)? Was it a particular person who’s ideas influenced you? Was it a result of knowledge absorbed over the years? A result of a specific life-experience? Was it tradition that was passed down?

3) How do you perceive the world around you? Insofar as natural laws?

4) What is your level of scientific knowledge and training?

Why do people always leave out agnosticism?

1 - no
1a - no
1b - no

2 - observation and philosophical reflection
2a - European philosophy since Hobbes and the enlightenment.

3 - there are no natural laws other than the laws of physics about which we know only a little.

4 - High school physics and biology, Post graduate degree in political philosophy.

1) Yes, Christianity, though I've learnt to respect Taoism, Judaism and Zoroastrianism. Most people seem to belong to the religion whose basic teachings they most ignore in their day to day life.
2) while investigating a weirdo cult (think Amway with spells) I noted a couple of (out of context) quotes from the Bible that 'sounded wrong' (based on my then limited knowledge). Checking the Bible to refute them, I feel in love with the NT, and came to accept Jesus. That was 15 years ago; still exploring and learning.
3) "natural laws"? Most people who go on about them are control freaks. We notice patterns in nature, build tech based on them, and desperately hope that it hasn't been coincidence or based on some other unknown factor. The one lesson we can truthfully say we've learnt from nature is that things keep changing. This isn't to deny the many wonderful gifts science has given us, but it's all based on a philosophically dodgy basis.
4) A few introductory units at Uni, while deciding what I wanted to do my degree in. Normally rely on friends with Science degrees to answer my scientific questions. My own majors are philosophy and classics.

Ok, for the last time "Atheism" is a belief, not a religion. Please stop calling atheism religion, I'm begging you.. :headbang:

1)No
a)No
b)I favor many of the philosophies behind Buddhist and Taoist thought.

2)I am a pantheist. Which means that I believe that the divine infuses absolutely everything, and as such, there is nothing to be elevated and worshiped. Everything is interconnected and as such all actions impact existance as a whole. I feel such beliefs lead to a a morality based upon enlightened self interests. Causing harm or doing good ultimately brings the ill or good back to the doer because there is no way to escape the web of interconnection.

2)Largely these beliefs came about from watching or more often reading about one particular action or happening and seeing how far the reprocussions stretched, and what actions if any affected the flow. History, Ecology, Physics, Literature (the way particulary pieces where accepted by or influenced the culture) - all areas of exhibit this tendancy. After having begun to develop these ideas, reading and reflection of writings on Zen and Taoism led to deeper reflection in areas where I may have not thought to apply the philosophy I had developed.

3)Nature follows cause and effect. Many natural laws haven't been fully sorted out, especially in physics there are still many questions.

4)High school biology, chemistry and physics. Bachelors in Anthropology with minor in biology. Individual study and interest in psychology, biochemistry, and certain areas of physics.

1) Do you place faith and believe in a religion?


No. I choose not to believe. I like to keep my mind open. I like to be receptive to alternative theories. Whatever one seems to match the world best at the moment, is the right one. That which describes reality. I feel that adhering to a specific belief closes one's minds off to alternatives. It's best to let ideas flow freely. Absorb those that make most sense. Discard those that are useless are destructive. I feel it's more healthy to adapt as reality demands. To remain undecided (agnostic if you will) is a conscious choice. If I am presented with evidence one way or the other toward on faith or another, one philosophy or another, it will remain mutable.


a. Do you believe strongly toward one religion over another?

Not really. Buddhism has some interesting practices that are useful in focusing the mind. Taoism offers some sorts of balance. The Judeo-christian religions all offer various useful morality lessons. However, just as many are flawed and detrimental to contemporary society. But these are just ideas. As for faith, as I conscious decision, I don't make belief an option.


b. If No, do your leanings favor one religious area over another?
Buddhism, perhaps. As it is more of a philosophy, a buddhist way of life is not incompatible w/ most religions.


2) How did you come to believe as you do?


A combination of exploring various philosophical ideas, introspection, metaphysical (in the logical near-mathematical discipline of philosophy, not the flakey new-age spiritual mumbo-jumbo) examination, based largely upon my understanding of the natural world.



a. What was the source of inspiration (or lack therof)? Was it a particular person who’s ideas influenced you? Was it a result of knowledge absorbed over the years? A result of a specific life-experience? Was it tradition that was passed down?


No singular source. My open-minded anarchistic a-religious humanistic ethics code comes naturally. Basically, live and let live.


3) How do you perceive the world around you? Insofar as natural laws?


As a natural struggle of individual entities for their own well being. At the same time, I feel that it is natural to constrain more destructive social tendencies artificially. So far I haven't seen anything that I would classify as undefinable within the understood technically understood rules of science.

Basically, i live by a philosophy of 'live freely and do not restrict others' freedoms.'


4) What is your level of scientific knowledge and training?

AP Physics HS. Calculus. Intro psychobiology. Ecology and organismal biology. Logic. Computer systems.

g.e.
Spokesbeast for TFPotJW
Delegate Emeritus to the DU

I believe that faith transcends religions(which are creations of men and inherently flawed). However, I believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God. So I guess that makes me christian by default. However, that doesn't mean that Mohammed was not a holy prophet. It doesn't mean that there is no Messiah on the way.

I think that people often lose the message in the details.

Ok, for the last time "Atheism" is a belief, not a religion. Please stop calling atheism religion, I'm begging you.. :headbang:

My apologies. I should've said beliefs instead of religions. Religions are belief-systems. Atheism is a conscious choice as opposed to agnosticism (which might as well be undecided, written as such for simplicities sake in universal understanding). My phrasing of do not believe anything, was a bit obtuse, admittedly. It could be conflated w/ nihilism, which is not necessarily what I meant. Nihilism is a conscious belief in and of itself (as contradictory as it may seem).

g.e./Gakl
Spokesbadger for TFPotJW
Delegate emeritus to the DU

I am an agnostic who believed that no religion is accurate or correct. My beliefs are nonconventional; suffice it to say that I may be considered a Deist.

As for the questions:

1) Do you place faith and believe in a religion?

Nope. Sure don't.

a. Do you believe strongly toward one religion over another?

Not really. All religions have things I disagree with, though most religions have things I can relate to.

b. If No, do your leanings favor one religious area over another?

I could mix and match from several religions, really.

2) How did you come to believe as you do?

I question everything and draw my own conclusions. I have judged that religions are more or less inaccurate and that I am most comfortable placing my trust in something I understand, such as science.

a. What was the source of inspiration (or lack therof)? Was it a particular person who’s ideas influenced you? Was it a result of knowledge absorbed over the years? A result of a specific life-experience? Was it tradition that was passed down?

I always questioned religion. I was told at a young age of the existence of God and have wondered about it ever since.

3) How do you perceive the world around you? Insofar as natural laws?

I try to be as fair to people as I can, because if there is a judgment after death, it will favor me, and if there isn't, then at least I did my part to be just and give people an eequal chance.

4) What is your level of scientific knowledge and training?

Four years of high school science, doing particularly well in chemistry and physics. Biology and I do not get along.

1) Do you place faith and believe in a religion? Do you believe strongly toward one religion over another? If No, do your leanings favor one religious area over another?

I don't really have a specific religion I follow, but I do have a sort of faith. As far as areas I am drawn to, I tend to gravitate away from monotheism and toward poly/pantheistic or agnostic views.

2)How did you come to believe as you do? What was the source of inspiration (or lack therof)? Was it a particular person who’s ideas influenced you? Was it a result of knowledge absorbed over the years? A result of a specific life-experience? Was it tradition that was passed down?

My beliefs are not so much a religion as a worldview, and I think I came to hold them for many reasons. I was not raised with a religion, and only became aware of it when asked to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in first grade. At this point I entered a short-lived period of forceful atheism, since at six I had a very direct, simple mind and the idea of some amorphous higher creator didn't mesh with the sensory world. I then reverted to no religion. My upbringing has given me a somewhat anti-establishment attitude and I think that's why a) a simple thing like the Pledge of Allegiance sent me into derisive disagreement and b) I've always been repelled by monotheism. At ten I picked up an obsession with Harry Potter, causing my relatives to send me various "witchy" books for holidays. Some of these alluded to Wicca, which was the starting point for my middle-school religious exploration. My interest stayed within the neopagan realm, but eventually I became lazy and dropped it. I then became an agnostic, the closest besides Wicca to my true inner belief. My beliefs are now fairly pantheistic with touches of neopaganism, philosophy, and science (I'm still quite analytical). I believe in finding beauty in the natural world, in other living beings, in reincarnation and karma, and that we should try to have as pleasurable a life as possible without harming anyone else.

3)How do you perceive the world around you? Insofar as natural laws?

I believe, as I stated above, in the philosophical law of karma, but on a more scientific level, I believe that we know very little about the true nature of the universe. I'm extremely intrigued by neutrinos, antimatter, dark matter, the smaller and smaller particles that we keep discovering (what are quarks made of?), and the interaction and possible overlap between matter and energy. So far the existence of awareness has not been explained and so I can freely speculate, and what I think is that there is a decentralized divine consciousness that permeates throughout the universe. I enjoy boggling myself by trying to wrap my mind around the concepts of infinity, nothing, and imaginary units - but this is getting a little off topic. I think consciousness is a type of energy, and that matter could also be just an alternate form of energy since it's really just a bunch of electrical charges flying around, although that doesn't explain mass. On a practical level I believe that life is a wonderful opportunity and that we should use it to have fun, help others to do the same, and preserve these opportunities for future generations.

4) What is your level of scientific knowledge and training? Kid-oriented science textbooks, episodes of Bill Nye, visits to OMSI, middle school standard curriculum, and six weeks of 9th grade chemistry. There are probably other sources too because science has always been a big interest of mine but those are the most memorable.

Well, so far lots of people have beliefs one way or the other. I'm not sure whether the many bids for the Atheist-Pagan-Other thing. Need more vote options really.

Not sure if NS is generally very cynical overall, or just has many alternative religious views.

I'm sort of curious about how alternative views come to be seen as legitimate. Spiritualism/cultism in constant flux. NS likely isn't terribly representative of reality though.

1)Do you place faith and believe in a religion?
a.Do you believe strongly toward one religion over another?
b.If No, do your leanings favor one religious area over another?

2)How did you come to believe as you do?
a.What was the source of inspiration (or lack therof)? Was it a particular person who’s ideas influenced you? Was it a result of knowledge absorbed over the years? A result of a specific life-experience? Was it tradition that was passed down?

3)How do you perceive the world around you? Insofar as natural laws?

4)What is your level of scientific knowledge and training?

1. No, but I used to be Presbyterian.
a. No
b. I prefer hindu/buddhist religions. They are the only ones that seem to have their fanatics under control. When was the last time you heard of a hindu suicide bomber or a buddhist evangilical channel?
2. Long long personal story.
3. There is a series of natural laws that humans follow as animals. I also hold a pessimistic view of the world. Humanity as a whole is bad, humans as individuals can be good.
4. High School senior.

1) Do you place faith and believe in a religion?
a. Do you believe strongly toward one religion over another?
b. If No, do your leanings favor one religious area over another?


1. Yes
1a. Yes


2) How did you come to believe as you do?
a. What was the source of inspiration (or lack therof)? Was it a particular person who’s ideas influenced you? Was it a result of knowledge absorbed over the years? A result of a specific life-experience? Was it tradition that was passed down?

2. It is the religion of my fathers.
2a. It's traditions and lifestyle flow with my blood.

3) How do you perceive the world around you? Insofar as natural laws?

It's a nice place, but it weeps.

4) What is your level of scientific knowledge and training?

High School, of course, Music Major that ended up with a Bac. in Mathematics w/ emphasis on Astronomy, several semesters of the physical sciences (Chem, Biology, etc).

Atheism is a conscious choice as opposed to agnosticism (which might as well be undecided, written as such for simplicities sake in universal understanding). I beg to difer, there is a branch of Agnostic thought which is certainly not "undecided", but instead is an active belief that the nature of the Divine (or even certainty of the existance of the Divine) is beyond human human knowledge. While I myself don't hold to this form of agnosticism, instead believing (consciously deciding to believe) that I have no direct knowledge of the nature of the Divine, thus am an agnostic although I am willing to accept the possibility that either the Diivne does not exist or that some knowledge of the nature of the Divine might be held by others than myself. I find this cavalier dismissal of agnosticism rather offensive.

1) Do you place faith and believe in a religion?
a. Do you believe strongly toward one religion over another?
b. If No, do your leanings favor one religious area over another?

2) How did you come to believe as you do?
a. What was the source of inspiration (or lack therof)? Was it a particular person who’s ideas influenced you? Was it a result of knowledge absorbed over the years? A result of a specific life-experience? Was it tradition that was passed down?

3) How do you perceive the world around you? Insofar as natural laws?

4) What is your level of scientific knowledge and training?

1) No

A) No

2) I was raised in a christian enviroment. But I'm very cynical and curious by nature and got frustrated by people answering my questions with "God works in mysterious ways" or other such crap. Also I got pissed off with a few priests when I would disagree with their intepretations they would respond with "Look I've been to bible college I know what I'm talking. Sit down and shut up." And then throw me out because I won't.

A) It started with the above disstatisfaction with christianity. Then I started reading about other religons and seeing similatries in them. They I studied acient history and realise that the Catholic church (organisation structure) and traditions are actually based on Roman Paganism rather than "God's word". Then I studied some philosophy and realised that human belief in a deity comes from a) a fear of the unknown
b) Egoism - humans must be the most important thing in the universe

3) Both a cynical view and an idealistic view. The world is a pretty sucking place, humans are greedy and uncaring. But it can be better. Humans have the potential to rise above their animalistic urges and if we all strive for a better world then it is possiable

4) High school science, mainly biology. I also read a lot of science books and that as well as philosophy and history

1) Nope

a. I'm an atheist.

b. No.

2) I base my views on what I think is most likely according to the evidence I've seen.

a. Its just the way I am.

3) I don't think there are any "natural laws." We're designed to pass our genes on, but that doesn't mean that any one who doesn't is any worse than any one that does. We're just a fluke, it's up to you to do what you like with the time you get. It's all very existential, but I don't worry about it too much.

4) Failed an A level in physics. :o

Why do people always leave out agnosticism?

It's the last option.

1) Do you place faith and believe in a religion?

Yes.

a. Do you believe strongly toward one religion over another?

Yes-however not to the exclusivity of wanting denial of other cultures or beliefs.

b. If No, do your leanings favor one religious area over another?

NA

2) How did you come to believe as you do?
a. What was the source of inspiration (or lack therof)? Was it a particular person who’s ideas influenced you? Was it a result of knowledge absorbed over the years? A result of a specific life-experience? Was it tradition that was passed down?

I reached a point of agnostiscism at the pre-pubesent ages.
I attended Baptist churches on Weekends, Catholic School during the week(which included a church service'mass' on wensdays. I lived in predominately Muslim neighborhood). Over time and experience I determined there is in fact a God. Following that I was raised as a Christian and my relation to God was through this up bringing that is the religion I chose. I however(though not biblically supported) believe that God, does not have have chosen people per se' but rather one is placed a "Faith at their feet" be it ISlam, Catholic,BAptist,Atheist, what ever. Then it is how they apply their lives to the lives of others with in the moral doctrine of their particular Faith.

3) How do you perceive the world around you? Insofar as natural laws?
This is vague wording, my natural laws, may not be your natural laws.
Could you cleaify for me please?

4) What is your level of scientific knowledge and training?
[/quote]
College attending.
Course specifics-heavy on Chemistry, Heavy on Psychology.
Will be preceding to Wayne State university after I get my pre-reqs finished at the local college.
What am I going for---Mortician :eek:

I was inadvertently imprecise. I probably either came up with teh whole poll idea sometime when I was probably creating it between tasks at work. Either that or I was too busy guzzling grolsch during the sox game.

Anyhow, as a basic definition of natural laws, I would say that which is objectively perceivable. ie. Theories, etc. that are objectively observable with results that can be reproduced by any person who makes an attempt to do so.

g.e.
Spokesspammer of TFPotJW

1)Do you place faith and believe in a religion?
No.
a.Do you believe strongly toward one religion over another?
NA
b.If No, do your leanings favor one religious area over another?
Yes, for Gnostics (being them christian, muslim or any other)

2)How did you come to believe as you do?
A lack of belief in any institutionalized form for adquiring knowledge.
a.What was the source of inspiration (or lack therof)? Was it a particular person who’s ideas influenced you? Was it a result of knowledge absorbed over the years? A result of a specific life-experience? Was it tradition that was passed down?
I started forming an idea of my religious leaning at very young age, and when I reached 16 it was almost already complete when I started to realize there where lot of people that felt the same way that I did, not having met even one (at least that I knew about their religious believes) before then.

3)How do you perceive the world around you? Insofar as natural laws?
I do not believe there is one way of perceiving the world, and try to gather all the knowledge I can about a particular thing before making my mind about it. Even if afterwards I find evidence that leads me in a completely opposite path, and which I take.

4)What is your level of scientific knowledge and training?
I'm in University, studying History (3rd year), which is now days taken as a science. I also find myself attracted to the study of all social areas and from time to time to new discoverings in physics, mathematics, medicine and astronomy.

1) Do you place faith and believe in a religion?
a. Do you believe strongly toward one religion over another?
b. If No, do your leanings favor one religious area over another?

2) How did you come to believe as you do?
a. What was the source of inspiration (or lack therof)? Was it a particular person who’s ideas influenced you? Was it a result of knowledge absorbed over the years? A result of a specific life-experience? Was it tradition that was passed down?

3) How do you perceive the world around you? Insofar as natural laws?

4) What is your level of scientific knowledge and training?



1) I am nonreligious, and therefore atheist. I believe only what I feel I have been given sufficient reason to believe.

2) I am atheist because I adopted the aforementioned stance, and have not since been given any good evidence that there is any truth in religion.

There was no one moment or cause of inspiration. I gradually abandoned religion as I became disillusioned with it.

3) I do my best to peceive the world for what it is, rather than what I might want it, or fear it, to be.

4) Sciences have always been my favourite and strongest subjects, and I am currently studying for a degree.

So far, as a distribution of political beliefs, I imagine NS is pretty far divorced from the norm.

Still, we do find a lot of back and forth aggressive arguments between the vehemently Christian and non-Christian. So far, if this poll is indicative of the distribution of beliefs throughout the NS Forum community (assuming that the vast majority of the NS population is North American or Western European, simply due to accessibility of technology) is very anomalous.

Still, NS does seem to be a predominantly liberal on both social and economic issues. At the same time the most vicious and rhetorical arguments come from the fringes of both the left and the right, only marginally representing the more reasonable majority. Hopefully, people will keep voting. So far, this gives an interesting insight into the beliefs of those that we are interacting with on this board.

g.e.
Spokesdude for TFPotJW

You should have divided Pagan/others and Atheist, it really makes no sense that they're together.

I wish I could have. I'm limited to 10 options and I wanted to hit all the major religions as statistically more people practice them in the real world. I had a stupidly naive assumption that NS would at least approach reality in percentages, but I was not even close.

my bad.

[edit] Of course, if a mod can alter the poll and make it so taht there are more than 10 options, I wouldn't complain....

1) Do you place faith and believe in a religion?

no


a. Do you believe strongly toward one religion over another?

i believe all religions are equally irrational, though some are more dangerously so.

2) How did you come to believe as you do?

because, as a scientist, i cannot believe otherwise.


a. What was the source of inspiration (or lack therof)?

my beliefs are based upon all my experiences, including personal reflection, interaction with other humans, study of the cosmos, study of religion and spirituality, and any number of other paths.


3) How do you perceive the world around you?
i perceive the world primarily through visual information, since more of my brain is occupied with processing visual information than with any of my other senses. however, my vision is pretty poor, so i rely strongly on scent and audio cues as well. touch and taste follow close behind. i also experience the abstract world through various cortical and lymbic structures.


4) What is your level of scientific knowledge and training?
[/quote]
BAs in Biology, Philosophy, and Psychology, currently studying for a doctoral degree in the biomedical sciences.

1) Do you place faith and believe in a religion?
a. Do you believe strongly toward one religion over another?
Not any of the organized religions, no. Rather, I have religion, which is developing a personal relationsihp with the divine.

b. If No, do your leanings favor one religious area over another?
Yes. My leanings heavily favour the ocean coast; it's my favourite religious area.

2) How did you come to believe as you do?
a. What was the source of inspiration (or lack therof)? Was it a particular person who’s ideas influenced you? Was it a result of knowledge absorbed over the years? A result of a specific life-experience? Was it tradition that was passed down?
My beliefs are based upon all my experiences, including personal reflection, interaction with other humans, study of the cosmos, study of mythology and spirituality, and any number of other paths.

Ooh! deja vu! Actually, the main source of my inspiration was in the study of mythology. Once I learned what "God" was, and compared it to what "god" is for me, things fell into place.

3) How do you perceive the world around you? Insofar as natural laws?
I perceive the world around me as immanent creation. It's a lovely old place to live.

4) What is your level of scientific knowledge and training?
I don't have a level, and my scientific learning is a day-to-day thing, so it never ends.

I wish I could have. I'm limited to 10 options and I wanted to hit all the major religions as statistically more people practice them in the real world. I had a stupidly naive assumption that NS would at least approach reality in percentages, but I was not even close.

my bad.

[edit] Of course, if a mod can alter the poll and make it so taht there are more than 10 options, I wouldn't complain....

Is it practical to combine the two Islamic threads, or move Paganism to Hinduism? (Combining polytheistic religions makes some sense). In many ways Paganism and Athiesm are at opposite ends of the religious spectrum.
(And no, I'm neither athiest nor pagan. I'd just like usable data at the conclusion of this poll).

That's actually a pretty decent idea. I admit, I didn't think it through as well as I could have. Drinking and watching the sox game wasn't really the best time for creating a well designed poll....

ATHEISM IS NOT A RELIGION!!!!! *smacks everyone*

1) Do you place faith and believe in a religion?
I am a praticing Buddhist. Specially my sect believe in Kwan Yin the goddess of mercy and compassion.
a. Do you believe strongly toward one religion over another?
I have respect for all religions, but I hate people who use religion to hide their inner fears or follow a religion to a teed. Being a gay person, buddhism is also the most tolerate among religion in terms for acceptiing someone.

b. If No, do your leanings favor one religious area over another?
Nope always been buddhism. Though I check out Christianity (which I did convert for a very brief time) and Catholism (Never again)

2) How did you come to believe as you do?
I believe in the good of people and what goes around comes around.

3) How do you perceive the world around you? Insofar as natural laws?
Everything has a place and a time and a purpose.
4) What is your level of scientific knowledge and training?

College level science. International relations major.

Not to step on anyone's toes, but Agnosticism is really just a cop-out for Atheism. It's simply more acceptable to utter in mixed company. By the way, I read this argument at The Happy Heretic, run by one Judith Hayes, so this is not my own original thinking, though it remains a good argument. I'm paraphrasing it the best I can.

Atheism is not, as many believe, the claim that there are absolutely no deities anywhere. To so claim, would be to claim to have complete, universal knowledge, and no atheist I know of would make that claim. When we do make the claim "There is no god", what we should be saying is "None of the deities presented thus far are real." Not Thor, not Mithra, not Yahweh, not Jehovah, not Allah, not Zeus, Quetzacuoatl, none of them. Saying "There is no god" is just easier on the tongue.

If you still claim to be an agnostic, do this simple test. Ask yourself these questions: Do I acknowledge the Christian deity, who has sent a saviour to Earth? Do I acknowledge the Jewish deity, who has yet to send a saviour? Do I acknowledge the Muslim deity? Any of the Greek, Roman, Norse, Babylonian, Hindi, Shinto, etc. deities? Do I acknowledge and pay homage to any deities? If you answer "yes" to any of these questions asked of yourself, congratulations! Your time of confusion is over, and you can consider yourself whatever it was you answered yes to. Now, for the rest of us who answered "no" to all of them, well, that means we're atheists. In not acknowledgeing a deity, we express no theistic beliefs; hence, atheists.

Answers in bold.

1) Do you place faith and believe in a religion?

I don't place any faith in a religion. I do have some faith in a certain entity I generally refer to as God. I have little faith in human constructs.


a. Do you believe strongly toward one religion over another?

I'm a practicing Catholic. I'm well aware that my choice of Catholicism is at least partly due to my upbringing (though I did convert to Catholicism). I've also looked at many other traditions and found basically the same things. Things have different names, different trappings, and a variety of methods (often similar ones), but all traditions do basically the same thing. Even atheism and agnosticism serve essentially the same psychological purpose as those traditions. So why should I change now?

2) How did you come to believe as you do?

As I mentioned before, my upbringing was a big part of it. That and my search for a more reasonable theological base and more appropriate scriptural interpretation (though I still have some disagreements with the Church's interpretations of certain verses). I also have a somewhat unorthodox way of relating my faith to the world. For example, most Catholics favor various forms of socialism and legislating their moral beliefs. I do not, and I have a solid theology (inasmuch as any theology is solid ;) ) to support that unorthodoxy.

That's the short version for my religious beliefs. My philosophical beliefs apart from religion are...unusual. But they aren't under discussion at the moment, so let's continue...

a.What was the source of inspiration (or lack therof)? Was it a particular person who’s ideas influenced you? Was it a result of knowledge absorbed over the years? A result of a specific life-experience? Was it tradition that was passed down?

It was a life-experience (several, really) that inspired me in my faith.

3) How do you perceive the world around you? Insofar as natural laws?

Gravity and such? What an odd question. It's just interactions between matter and various forces, really. I suppose I perceive it as rather attractive and wonderfully complex and interesting.

4) What is your level of scientific knowledge and training?

Basic physics, chemistry, biology, psychology, sociology, etc. I actually work mostly with language, pedagogy, and philosophy.

You wouldn't be trying to establish a relationship between the level of science education and religious beliefs, would you? If so, I would warn you that people (like my physicist/chemist and chemical engineer parents) seem to have a remarkable ability to make themselves devoid of reason when it comes to religion and doctrine even if they are highly intelligent, well-educated, etc.

Not to step on anyone's toes, but Agnosticism is really just a cop-out for Atheism. It's simply more acceptable to utter in mixed company. By the way, I read this argument at The Happy Heretic, run by one Judith Hayes, so this is not my own original thinking, though it remains a good argument. I'm paraphrasing it the best I can.

Atheism is not, as many believe, the claim that there are absolutely no deities anywhere. To so claim, would be to claim to have complete, universal knowledge, and no atheist I know of would make that claim. When we do make the claim "There is no god", what we should be saying is "None of the deities presented thus far are real." Not Thor, not Mithra, not Yahweh, not Jehovah, not Allah, not Zeus, Quetzacuoatl, none of them. Saying "There is no god" is just easier on the tongue.

If you still claim to be an agnostic, do this simple test. Ask yourself these questions: Do I acknowledge the Christian deity, who has sent a saviour to Earth? Do I acknowledge the Jewish deity, who has yet to send a saviour? Do I acknowledge the Muslim deity? Any of the Greek, Roman, Norse, Babylonian, Hindi, Shinto, etc. deities? Do I acknowledge and pay homage to any deities? If you answer "yes" to any of these questions asked of yourself, congratulations! Your time of confusion is over, and you can consider yourself whatever it was you answered yes to. Now, for the rest of us who answered "no" to all of them, well, that means we're atheists. In not acknowledgeing a deity, we express no theistic beliefs; hence, atheists.

Theists believe that God exists.

I'm an agnostic theist. I believe in a God and think that said God's existence is unprovable (and therefore in a certain sense unknowable) at this point.

Others are agnostic atheists. They don't believe in any God but recognize that God (or a collection of various deities) could possibly be real. (They may prefer to call themselves agnostics, which is fine IMO.)

Atheists simply believe that the God(s) proposed so far do not exist.


I think that sums it up.

normally i stay away from religious discussions, cause of my extreme views, but im bored...

1) Do you place faith and believe in a religion?
a. Do you believe strongly toward one religion over another?
b. If No, do your leanings favor one religious area over another? no faith in any religion. and i favor atheism (or whatever you want to call it) above all else, cause its the only believe that makes sence for a intelligent person.

2) How did you come to believe as you do?
a. What was the source of inspiration (or lack therof)? Was it a particular person who’s ideas influenced you? Was it a result of knowledge absorbed over the years? A result of a specific life-experience? Was it tradition that was passed down? well, that isnt so easy to answer. i grew up in a protestant family and had to visit the church on christmas, thats it. they believed in god but werent zealous about it.
i visited konfirmation (sp? age 14) and listened to what the priestess said. it all sounded like stuff someone invented to keep stupid people busy. all of the bible stuff sounded completly ridiculous to me. i finished the konfirmation just to get the money (and the ~350€ wasnt even close to what i expected) and never visited the church again. it was during that time too that i asked the question why humankind feels the neccessarity to invent gods, and why this believe is still around in our modern times. i just say this questions here to let you see how strong my believe is. official im still a member of the protestant church, im just too lazy to fill out this stupid paper to leave, but i havent set a foot in any church in 13 years.

3) How do you perceive the world around you? Insofar as natural laws? i dont get this question. what kind of natural laws? gravitation?

4) What is your level of scientific knowledge and training? Uni

1 a. no religion over another
1 b. nope.
2. My natural philosophy is to treat others how I want to be treated by them. This does not completely square with any of the religions around, which like to include violence to defend their beliefs and to destroy opposing ways of thought. I have also seen other examples of people using religion to hide actions that are both illegal and, to me, immoral.
3. Natural laws, such as those of physics and mathematics?
4. I'm currently in my first year of uni studying astrophysics.

ATHEISM IS NOT A RELIGION!!!!! *smacks everyone*

No, but as I probably answered already, it is a coherent and definitive belief (as in you BELIEVE that there is no god or set of gods). My setup of the poll was slightly flawed. I'm considering recreating it in a slightly more coherent and sober fashion.

g.e.

Not to step on anyone's toes, but Agnosticism is really just a cop-out for Atheism.

???

Theist: Believe in the existance of (a) god/s.
Atheist: Do not believe in the existance of (a) superior being/s.
Agnostics: Have no freaking idea of what to believe, or believe that it is impossible to know even if there (is a)/are god/s.

That's it.

... cause its the only believe that makes sence for a intelligent person...

I have no problem in anyone being an atheist, but that's quite an insult buddy. Did you know Einstein was jewish, for example, and that most "intelligent" persons (scientists, politicians, etc) of today are in fact agnostic and not atheist; they figured out that even if there is god, it is quite hard that we would be able to know about it. Now... being an atheist because you figured out/ believe / have faith that there is no god/gods/whatever... that's just fine, but for the above reason: No freaking way. :sniper:

1) Do you place faith and believe in a religion?
Yes, I selected non-evangelical protestant Christian.
a. Do you believe strongly toward one religion over another?
Yes, my own naturally, however I respect aspects of other religions and would not dismiss them as tosh.

2) How did you come to believe as you do?
a. What was the source of inspiration (or lack therof)? Was it a particular person who’s ideas influenced you? Was it a result of knowledge absorbed over the years? A result of a specific life-experience? Was it tradition that was passed down?
A combination of all of the above. I was brought up in my church and attended every week; unthinkingly as a child, then reluctantly at my parents insistence as a teenager and now willingly whenever I can. Faith can never be reached by discussion or argument, only by a personal experience from God. My favourite example is "Pulp Fiction"; where Jules sees divine intervention, Vincent sees coincidence. God reaches out to us, not we to it. My personal experience gave me faith, but I could have joined any church. I went to the church of my childhood out of tradition and sentimentality.

3) How do you perceive the world around you? Insofar as natural laws?
God is out with the laws of physics, but follows them. Like in a game of football, it is possible to play without using the rules, but you don't because it becomes pointless. God does not tend to break the laws of physics but will if pushed. Processes such as evolution occur, but everything is the will of God and guided by it.

4) What is your level of scientific knowledge and training?
I am a Bachelor of Science and work in research.

My personal experience gave me faith, but I could have joined any church. I went to the church of my childhood out of tradition and sentimentality.


But, my question is what sort of experience is it that brings you to BELIEVE, versus just consider it as simply one of many potential ideas? That is essentially the root of what I'm getting at. And I'm not focusing the question out of a means to dissect an idea or refute it, but simply to understand. As aforementioned, I do not hold any particular belief, but at the same time do not deny the possibility of any. I would like to consider myself open minded, but at the same time I'm not actively seeking any belief.

g.e.

If you do believe in a god:

How do you envision him/her/it? Is god a living entity? Usually described and presented as "unknowable." But, what are your real opinions on the matter? Do take religious texts as a given, word-for-word? Or do you consider that god may too have rules to live by, that it(he/she) exists in a higher "super-reality" with a wholly other set of laws? Is it a force or presence? Or do you consider it to be a cognitive entity? Is the power finite or infinite? If infinite, is it only within our sphere of detection? If the entity is a cogent and independent, does it have a specific agenda? How do you reconcile an independent superior entity's agenda versus an inferior entity's agenda? Are they equal? What about the ethical dilema of self-determination of the individual human agent?

Wow...so I just spat out a few years worth of Metaphysical big-questions....yeah...have fun with that. :)

g.e.

1) I'm one of the non-evangelical Christians

2) How did you come to believe as you do?
I went through a long, long search of the many world beliefs (not religions) which started when I came to realize that I believed some kind of higher power must exist. Eventually I settled on Christianity.

3) How do you perceive the world around you? Insofar as natural laws?
I assume this is in relation to spiritual belief, so you're asking how a God would touch the world or be involved? Well, I think quantum physics leaves some rather large openings for god to be directly involved in the world without violating any of the principles we've come to learn in the universe. Could he be involved /and/ violate those principles? Sure, that might be how he started the universe anyway, but what would be the point?

4) What is your level of scientific knowledge and training?
I hold BS degrees in Electrical Engineering, Engineering Physics, and Robotics. I have MS degrees in Astrophysics and Artificial Intelligence Engineering. I'm persuing a PhD in Physics at the moment.

1) Do you place faith and believe in a religion?
a. Do you believe strongly toward one religion over another?
b. If No, do your leanings favor one religious area over another?

2) How did you come to believe as you do?
a. What was the source of inspiration (or lack therof)? Was it a particular person who’s ideas influenced you? Was it a result of knowledge absorbed over the years? A result of a specific life-experience? Was it tradition that was passed down?

3) How do you perceive the world around you? Insofar as natural laws?

4) What is your level of scientific knowledge and training?

1) I have faith in Christianity. I couldn't specifically categorise myself as anything other than a non-Catholic non-Orthodox Bible follower, I consider that I try to follow the Bible in context to what is written.
a. I believe strongly toward the Protestant side of Christianity. Whilst I was Christened in the United Reformed Church, there are a couple of things Calvin preached (a C16th French reform preacher whom the URC is influenced quite largely by). I would consider myself quite Anglican, and if I attended a church it would probably be a "low church" of the Church of England.
I accept and agree with many of Martin Luther's preachings and principles, too.

2) Reading, personal experiences of several degrees, life in general.
a. All of the above. You may have heard the phrase, "There is no such thing as an athiest in a foxhole." I think it is a motto for life. Desperation and searching will always leave you somewhere you weren't when you began, even if it is just mentally. Reading and common sense has lead me most of the way, I think.

3) I have strong faith and believe that God created the World and natural laws, and for a reason. If you don't really understand that reason, you are a lost sheep of the flock.

4) I have a sufficient and in-depth knowledge of science, and a logical mind has helped a lot.

If you do believe in a god:

How do you envision him/her/it? Is god a living entity? Usually described and presented as "unknowable." But, what are your real opinions on the matter? Do take religious texts as a given, word-for-word? Or do you consider that god may too have rules to live by, that it(he/she) exists in a higher "super-reality" with a wholly other set of laws? Is it a force or presence? Or do you consider it to be a cognitive entity? Is the power finite or infinite? If infinite, is it only within our sphere of detection? If the entity is a cogent and independent, does it have a specific agenda? How do you reconcile an independent superior entity's agenda versus an inferior entity's agenda? Are they equal? What about the ethical dilema of self-determination of the individual human agent?

Wow...so I just spat out a few years worth of Metaphysical big-questions....yeah...have fun with that. :)

g.e.

God is a Spirit. I take the Bible word-for-word, but God was good at throwing in as many metaphors as He could. I believe God grants us freedom, that Jesus came to this World and told us that if we lived by God and God alone, lists and lists of archaic laws were not neccessary. "For we walk by faith, not by sight" (2 Corinthians 5:7)

God is a Force, a Presence and a Being. I believe that God is much, much greater than our simple 3-dimensional Universe. (Read "Flatworld" by Edwin Abbott)

Since, religion may form the basis of many moral and ethical decisions for casting policy, I’m expanding upon some earlier threads aimed at increasing the understanding of others’ worldviews. If you have come here to tell others that your worldview is better than others, please take your commentary elsewhere. You’re not going to convince anyone. What I want to see here is reasoned discussion to enable all of us to understand each other better.

I applaud your eloquence and hope that my imput will further your goal.

1) Do you place faith and believe in a religion?
a. Do you believe strongly toward one religion over another?
b. If No, do your leanings favor one religious area over another?

I do not believe in faith, as its connotation to me is one of lack of control over one's own path. I do have a very strong belief system though.

In its purist form, I am an atheist in that I believe in an absence of a deific entity or omniscient / omnipotent / omnipresent power of any kind. I do not believe in the theory that we are a race created by aliens or were in any other way "intentionally" formed. Where we come from outside of that is not important to my beliefs and trouble me little. The formal name given my philosophies is Secular Humanism. Humanism is defined as: A progressive philosophy of life that, without supernaturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity. Also: A system of thought that centers on humans and their values, capacities, and worth. In less poetic form, Humanism is the belief that you are here to serve your species, who is here to serve you. That your pervasive drive should be one of elevating the species. And that you should leave this system a little better than you found it.

I interpret these philosophies thusly: Your life should have meaning and purpose. You should live your life as you see fit, but underlying every intention and action should be the evaluation of the consequences for humankind. This pervasiveness need not be invasive. If you truly believe in that in which you practice, the effects should be automatic. When you die, you are dead, to become one again with the cold hard ground, and to fuel life for the next step in the cycle. That does not mean immortality is not possible. The impact you have upon others is your legacy, especially with your children. Those who carry your legacy will pass it on and immortality is gained.

While there are no true "sins" per say, there are rules by which you should live. Many of the classical religious morays still apply. Greed, Murder, Hatred, Vanity, Selfishness, Jealousy. These are all considered improper because they cause backlash with the very people your are supposed to be working with.

Secular Humanism treats the species as a single entity. Each culture defines a system within that entity, while the individual functions similar to a cell. If one cell is destructive to the system, it can cause the death of that system.

I personally add a secondary philosophy to the formalized one. It is derived from the principles of freedom as stated by the philosopher John Locke. Every man has inherent rights. Those rights are to life, liberty and property. Therefore, so long as you violate none of those rights for your fellows, then you are pretty much free to do as you please. Of course it is beyond human comprehension to know every consequence of every action, but that does not preclude someone from trying to live within those limits.

2) How did you come to believe as you do?
a. What was the source of inspiration (or lack therof)? Was it a particular person who’s ideas influenced you? Was it a result of knowledge absorbed over the years? A result of a specific life-experience? Was it tradition that was passed down?

During my first tour in Bosnia with the UN Peacekeeping forces, I was often confronted by chaplins and devout soldiers who would ask me the vary questions you have asked. I couldn't answer them. I was raised Pentecostal Christian and just followed those rules which I had learned in childhood (Religion in and of itself, for the most part, has teachings that mirror that of my own beliefs now). When we returned to Germany, I set myself to religious study. I have read the scriptures of countless religions, some in part, most in full. I started with the obvious choice, the King James Bible. I moved then to the Book of Mormon, the Koran, I Chiang, Buddist Sutras, Sufi manuals. I found that many of them said a great number of the same things. The only thing that was different was the deity and the rituals (an important part of religion). I did a great deal of self-searching and could find no love for god, and my linear mind could not find spiritualism. I actually stumbled upon Secular Humanism after the end of my active duty time. I started college as a physics major, but in order to avoid a strict language program I decided to minor in Philosophy. I had been following a personal moral code to that point and it had served me very well. It was actually surprising to find that there were others that followed a practically identical philosophy. I was now able to attach a name to that which I held dear.

3) How do you perceive the world around you? Insofar as natural laws?

I'm not quite sure exactly what you are asking, but I will say that I hold a degree in hard science. I believe that natural laws are physical aspects of a system that managed to work together either through a lack of choice or after infinite attempts. I believe that life was an accident, a one in infinite chance that the exact right sequence of events happened in exactly the right amount of time to create the spark of life. Which, over an immeasurable amount of time evolved into that which I see in the mirror each day.

4) What is your level of scientific knowledge and training?

I have a Bachelors of Science in Physics, with a minor in mathematics and philosophy. I specialized in force theory, with my thesis on the possible existence of the superstring graviton. I started my philosophy minor with a specialty in logic and argumentation, but altered towards the end to the philosophy of science. During my time as an active duty soldier, I served as a combat engineer, transitioning to structural engineer upon exiting active duty and entering the National Guard. When I returned from Iraq last May, I reclassed as an Army aviator.

Responses in bold.

How do you envision him/her/it?

Envision? I don't really have any sort of visual impression of God. But here is my take on the more common premises:

Omnipotent: Maybe, maybe not. Either way it works out.

Omnipresent: Maybe, maybe not. Either way it works out.

Omniscient: Maybe, maybe not. Either way it works out.

Omnibenevolent: Not in the sense that we generally perceive omnibenevolence to be.

Do take religious texts as a given, word-for-word?

I take them as useful texts, in that when they are understood in their appropriate literary and cultural context they can transmit to us much wisdom and inspiration.

Or do you consider that god may too have rules to live by, that it(he/she) exists in a higher "super-reality" with a wholly other set of laws?

My suspicion is that God, like most entities, regulates its own behavior.
As far as the "super-reality" with a higher set of laws goes... Maybe, maybe not. Either way it works out.

Is it a force or presence?

Perhaps both. Why does it matter?

Or do you consider it to be a cognitive entity?

My belief is that God is a cognitive entity, based on my experience of God.

Is the power finite or infinite?

Doesn't really matter.

If infinite, is it only within our sphere of detection?

Doesn't really matter, but interesting to speculate on.

If the entity is a cogent and independent, does it have a specific agenda?

I think it does.

How do you reconcile an independent superior entity's agenda versus an inferior entity's agenda?

Why do you think such a thing needs to be reconciled? Must everything be oppositional?

What about the ethical dilema of self-determination of the individual human agent?

I wasn't aware that it was an "ethical" dilemma. I need more clarification on this question. My suspicion is that it's not an ethical dilemma at all (for me) given my belief system.

ATHEISM IS NOT A RELIGION!!!!! *smacks everyone*
But you must be, you've got the 'smiting' element down pat! :D

What's to explain. There isn't/aren't god/s so what's to believe in?

I interpret these philosophies thusly: Your life should have meaning and purpose. You should live your life as you see fit, but underlying every intention and action should be the evaluation of the consequences for humankind. This pervasiveness need not be invasive. If you truly believe in that in which you practice, the effects should be automatic. When you die, you are dead, to become one again with the cold hard ground, and to fuel life for the next step in the cycle. That does not mean immortality is not possible. The impact you have upon others is your legacy, especially with your children. Those who carry your legacy will pass it on and immortality is gained.
To "become one with" the Earth and its cycles is to create a relationship with it, to deify the Earth or make it supernatural (to be supernatural is to be placed "above nature", which humans do by personifying or anthropomorphizing things in order to develop a relationship to them). You've carefully avoided any personification here, but, as a humanist, you might want to find a less poetic way of saying "planting my dead corpse in the ground," because the language you use here (the relationship of "becoming as one") is the language of religion.
;-)

God is a Spirit. I take the Bible word-for-word, but God was good at throwing in as many metaphors as He could. I believe God grants us freedom, that Jesus came to this World and told us that if we lived by God and God alone, lists and lists of archaic laws were not neccessary. "For we walk by faith, not by sight" (2 Corinthians 5:7)

God is a Force, a Presence and a Being. I believe that God is much, much greater than our simple 3-dimensional Universe. (Read "Flatworld" by Edwin Abbott)

Okay, but how did you come to believe this? What experiences made you believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that this particular world-view is the correct one and all others are false? Or, do you accept that other world views may have validity?

Responses in bold.

Is the power finite or infinite?

Doesn't really matter.


I have to disagree here. Infinite power would leave us with a substantially different universe. Finite power would indicate one day another entity or group of entities could surpass it, thus placing entities into theoretical competition for resources.


If the entity is a cogent and independent, does it have a specific agenda?

I think it does.

How do you reconcile an independent superior entity's agenda versus an inferior entity's agenda?

Why do you think such a thing needs to be reconciled? Must everything be oppositional?


Not necessarily, but at the same time must everything be hierarchical or is this simply a psychological blind spot in the human psyche? We classify things hierarchically within our minds as mental short-cuts, to more effectively compartmentalize memory.

Most religions involving a hierarchical deity involves judgements and ethical dilemmas. Necessarily with such a belief system all others who do not believe, tend to be labeled as amoral. As a result this naturally places the interests of some cognitive entities at odds with others.

Additional question: Does greater power dictate moral superiority? Why?

Should cogntive entities who have physically inferior capabilities have the ability to assert independence or self-improve to match the superior?



What about the ethical dilema of self-determination of the individual human agent?

I wasn't aware that it was an "ethical" dilemma. I need more clarification on this question. My suspicion is that it's not an ethical dilemma at all (for me) given my belief system.

Well, that makes sense as you do ascribe to a specific belief system that assumes the existence of a superior entity that passes down rules for humans to follow.

Insofar as ethical, the issue at hand is what makes the supreme beings decrees more important than human-created rulesets? What makes the interest of humans inferior to those of the supreme being?

To "become one with" the Earth and its cycles is to create a relationship with it, to deify the Earth or make it supernatural (to be supernatural is to be placed "above nature", which humans do by personifying or anthropomorphizing things in order to develop a relationship to them). You've carefully avoided any personification here, but, as a humanist, you might want to find a less poetic way of saying "planting my dead corpse in the ground," because the language you use here (the relationship of "becoming as one") is the language of religion.
;-)

The earths surface is comprised of over 200 different elements, each which combined make up the celestial body we have so lovingly dubbed Earth. Our bodies, being comprised of about $200 bucks worth of raw materials, decompose over time. The various solid matter that was once our flesh is absorbed into the Earth's, for lack of a better term, earth. If we were to fall were we died, we would become part of the mostly organic "O" layer of earth (top soil), but since humans bury the dead (the usefulness of this can be found in most reasonably decent secular geology textbooks), we are actually absorbed into the more permanent "B" layer of earth. Without cataclismic upheaval, the decomposing body's various base chemicals are leeched into the surrounding "dirt", combining the the surroundings and the decomposing body, leaving no definitive end or beginning of either...

Becoming one

Make no mistake, when you mix kool aid powder and water, they become one, when you pour HO2 onto a piece of cheese, they become one. At any time that two things combine and leave no definitive edge, they are no longer seperate objects, but a single object.

I understand you may have been making a joke, but it seems more like you gave something (the combining of two objects into one) a little more power than it actually has. If, in your personal view, the combining of objects is a supernatural event, then I apologize for challenging you on that, as this is not the time nor place.

Depending on which day of the week you catch me on, I drift from Atheist to Agnostic to Deist to Pantheist.

The earths surface is comprised of over 200 different elements, each which combined make up the celestial body we have so lovingly dubbed Earth. Our bodies, being comprised of about $200 bucks worth of raw materials, decompose over time. The various solid matter that was once our flesh is absorbed into the Earth's, for lack of a better term, earth. If we were to fall were we died, we would become part of the mostly organic "O" layer of earth (top soil), but since humans bury the dead (the usefulness of this can be found in most reasonably decent secular geology textbooks), we are actually absorbed into the more permanent "B" layer of earth. Without cataclismic upheaval, the decomposing body's various base chemicals are leeched into the surrounding "dirt", combining the the surroundings and the decomposing body, leaving no definitive end or beginning of either...

Becoming one

Make no mistake, when you mix kool aid powder and water, they become one, when you pour HO2 onto a piece of cheese, they become one. At any time that two things combine and leave no definitive edge, they are no longer seperate objects, but a single object.

I understand you may have been making a joke, but it seems more like you gave something (the combining of two objects into one) a little more power than it actually has. If, in your personal view, the combining of objects is a supernatural event, then I apologize for challenging you on that, as this is not the time nor place.
I was partly joking. But hey... you're rebuilding the start of the first-ever religious concepts here. Keep working at it. ;-)

It's not the combining of two objects, per se. It's the combining of object and human, who by his nature forms relationships. Relationship = one (or more) plus one (or more) into two (or more). When you have one becoming another, though, that is a very special relationship, one of identification with the object. This can only be done by the human.

EDIT: And yes, I realise he doesn't form relationships after he dies. There it's object plus object... but then, I'm not speculating about death with a dead man. (I hope.) Religion requires a live human consciousness.

1) Do you place faith and believe in a religion?

no

a. Do you believe strongly toward one religion over another?

no

b. If No, do your leanings favor one religious area over another?

i guess christianity. If for nothing more than I grew up in a western culture...

2) How did you come to believe as you do?

thought for myself

a. What was the source of inspiration (or lack therof)? Was it a particular person who’s ideas influenced you? Was it a result of knowledge absorbed over the years? A result of a specific life-experience? Was it tradition that was passed down?

both parents are christian (1 anglican + 1 catholic). they thought it was best to let me choose.

3) How do you perceive the world around you? Insofar as natural laws?

Day to day? I think most of our laws are man made. Only natural insofar as we do it. For the way things work, well that physics.

4) What is your level of scientific knowledge and training?

GCSE biology/chemistry/physics (I know thats no saying much). Really a laymen that enjoys learning something new.

1) Do you place faith and believe in a religion?
a. Do you believe strongly toward one religion over another?
b. If No, do your leanings favor one religious area over another?

2) How did you come to believe as you do?
a. What was the source of inspiration (or lack therof)? Was it a particular person who’s ideas influenced you? Was it a result of knowledge absorbed over the years? A result of a specific life-experience? Was it tradition that was passed down?

3) How do you perceive the world around you? Insofar as natural laws?

4) What is your level of scientific knowledge and training?

1) No.
a. No.
b. Possibly Deism, sometimes Christianity, sometimes Buddhism, sometimes Taoism, but too malleable to mean anything.

2) Personal discovery.
a. Years of theological study. Not a person, but a lot of books and logic debates. Yes. Yes and no. No, I was raised in a very religious family of evangelical Christians.

3) Random Chaos. They don't really exist.

4) Officially, very little. I am a highschool and college dropout. However, I work as an Engineer, and on any given proficiency test I score on par with post collegiate science/tech grads.

1) I'm an atheist, but why oh why do you put that in one category with pagan?? :mad:
a. yea kinda. I strongly disbelief any religion.

2) I was raised semi-christian. Without baptising and other rites, but with the idea that there is a god. After long reflection and discussions at school i decided that gods can not exist.
a. My mother introduced me to the idea that gods exist. My source of inspiration for rejecting religion was mostly my own reflection (i haven't read any books on the subject or so).

3) The world consist completely and exclusively of matter. Anything else (gods, spirits, etc) is a construction of our own mind. Because all characteristics of matter are in the end percievable (with or without instruments) science should be able to awnser every relevant question.

4) I have completed my secundary school at the Gymnasium (highest form of secundary school in the Netherlands, with latin and stuff), and I'm trying to get a bachelor degree in Geography.

I have to disagree here. Infinite power would leave us with a substantially different universe. Finite power would indicate one day another entity or group of entities could surpass it, thus placing entities into theoretical competition for resources.

Perhaps. Though even if we premise a finite God, we are also premising it as having extraordinarily different properties then we do. Also, most of us aren't premising an entity that would end up in competition with even a finite deity. I certainly don't expect homo sapiens sapiens to evolve far enough and change properties in the ways necessary to become competition for such a being, because I doubt our species will exist that long.

Would even a finite (but so powerful that we would percieve it as infinite) deity necessarily need resources that would necessitate a conflict between itself and other entities? Would it even need to intake energy and expel it as we do?

Not necessarily, but at the same time must everything be hierarchical or is this simply a psychological blind spot in the human psyche? We classify things hierarchically within our minds as mental short-cuts, to more effectively compartmentalize memory.

I suspect that the heirarchization of things has much to do with culture and our psychological pattern of expressing dominance. We see things in terms of our dominance over things, so it would make sense that we would use the "better than" model for interpreting the world. Also, Western cultural thought has a strong tendency toward creating heirarchies.

Most religions involving a hierarchical deity involves judgements and ethical dilemmas.

Dilemmas are the result of an inconsistent system or a poor understanding of a consistent system. I would like to think that I have neither of those. ;)

Necessarily with such a belief system all others who do not believe, tend to be labeled as amoral.

Eh? All human beings have morals (beliefs about the regulation of human behavior). I could understand labelling someone immoral but not amoral.

Additional question: Does greater power dictate moral superiority? Why?

It has nothing to do with power. Despite having great power, George Bush does not have moral superiority.

Should cogntive entities who have physically inferior capabilities have the ability to assert independence or self-improve to match the superior?

There are these things we call "free will" and "evolution". But perhaps you don't believe in free will and think we deserve a better shot at it than evolution gives us. I don't think we could really make a rational argument either way.

Insofar as ethical, the issue at hand is what makes the supreme beings decrees more important than human-created rulesets?

Oh, now you're getting to a very basic question. Of course, part of the problem of the rulesets for religious folk is the difficulty in determining whether they are of human or divine origin.

The answer to that question comes down to a personal belief. I believe that God created rules that would be conducive to our survival and general health (physical psychological etc). A sort of pragmatic ruleset. Since survival and general health are the main priorities of life, obeying the ruleset of a being whose judgement is superior to ours in terms of understanding the appropriate behavior conducive to survival and health makes sense.

What makes the interest of humans inferior to those of the supreme being?

Lack of good judgement, as implied by my previous statement.

Atheist. It shouldn't be put in there with Pagan...I don't believe there is ANY higher power. Pagans do.

who really gives a damm wht religion u are

who really gives a damm wht religion u are
Obviously someone does or there wouldn't be a thread.

We are what we are. Wherever you go there you are. Time will Tell.

There are some which are going to join me in the great land of Gloop, although there numbers are few as the whole world is full of non-believers of Gloop. We shall see come gloopiness day, we shall see

There are some which are going to join me in the great land of Gloop, although there numbers are few as the whole world is full of non-believers of Gloop. We shall see come gloopiness day, we shall see

Ooooo! Can I join! What are the requirements? Prayer, sacrifices, the usual things?

And yes, I realise he doesn't form relationships after he dies. There it's object plus object...

You have nailed my stance rather squarely on the head, especially since the human body no longer functions as part of the system that it is a part of.

As a side not, religion is defined slightly more strictly than the concept of human relationship. It requires belief or faith, deific entities or ideals, and specific rituals.

You have nailed my stance rather squarely on the head, especially since the human body no longer functions as part of the system that it is a part of.
And that was the exception to what was saying. ;-)

As a side not, religion is defined slightly more strictly than the concept of human relationship. It requires belief or faith, deific entities or ideals, and specific rituals.
Oh, I understand that. That's what I refer to as the "window-dressing". At its root, religion is simply developing a relationship with that which we have deified.