NationStates Jolt Archive

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but when a book tells me that the way to discover if my girlfriend is cheating on me is to make her drink muddy water, even if it was designed by God, it seems that it's lost all it's relevance. Sure, this is just one case where the Bible seems crazy, but there are phrases saying that a man who loves his children beats them up, that slaves are acceptable, that eating shelfish is a sin. Then there's the phrases that contradict themselves, telling us that homosexuality is an abomination yet we should love thy neighbour.

It just seems a little weird to be preaching from this book, and judging decisions on it, if you know what I mean. Your thoughts?

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.

(Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Looks like we can add Miss Cleo to the list of people Christians must kill. :D

First of all, you should actually read the Bible, before bitching about it.

The relevance of the Bible does not lie in such minor issues as you describe them. The purpose of the Bible is to propagate a weltbild that gives importance to a people that would otherwise be historically and theologically irrelevant: the Israelites and their offspring. The relevance of the Bible does not lie in the rules it gives but in the worthiness it assigns to people as to determine the value of a human through his/her descent and belief.

First of all, you should actually read the Bible, before bitching about it.

First of all, you should actually read the post, and then reply in the spirit in which it was originally made.

It was actually quite light-hearted, and very polite.

First of all, you should actually read the Bible, before bitching about it.

Ah yes, the old 'If you disagree with the Bible, the only possible reason for that can be that you have not read it' argument.

Ah yes, the old 'If you disagree with the Bible, the only possible reason for that can be that you have not read it' argument.Ahem, no. The argument is 'If you agree with the Bible, the only possible reason for that can be that you have not read it'.
Anyone who has really read the Bible (and has developed further than this bronze-age concept of the world) can impossibly agree with it.

as a text describing how (some) people lived, their beliefs and aspirations, a few hundred years ago it is quite relevant.
anything else is debatable and a personal choice...

Ah yes, the old 'If you disagree with the Bible, the only possible reason for that can be that you have not read it' argument.
Maybe substitute 'read' for 'understood'. I can READ my tax statement. Haven't got a clue what half of it means.

For the original question, most of the shellfish, wearing clothes of two materials (lose that polyester you sinner), stoning, that's the original Jewish law, set down by God for his chosen people. That was for a people who were just about to found a new country and be beset by other peoples around them for hundreds of years. Last thing they needed was a parliamnetary debate over every suspected 'crime'. Example: the law said 'an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth' giving us our basic method of judicial punishment. Jesus said 'turn the other cheek'. That's a personal instruction for when someone does something to us we don't like. See the distinction?

as a text describing how (some) people lived, their beliefs and aspirations, a few hundred years ago it is quite relevant.
anything else is debatable and a personal choice...But the text is not describing how (some) people lived, their beliefs and aspirations. It is describing what a reader should take as true history about how (some) people lived. But it completely fails to tell what intentions they had. It portays Egyptians, Babylonians, Romans, etc. as extremely hostile but does not show those peoples' true nature.
The Bible has been assebled for one purpose only: to justify the existence of a Hebrew/Israelite/Jewish thelogical and "national" entity within the overlapping spheres of influence of the real powers of ancient times.

Does anyone know what an allegory is?

I suppose that wasn't really fair.
OK. Because a large number of people on this planet believe that the Bible was written by God and they have faith in the words transcribed therein.

No matter how many times those words were mistranslated and corrupted for political gain.

It's a religion, for pete's sake. Let them be.

First of all, you should actually read the Bible, before bitching about it.

The relevance of the Bible does not lie in such minor issues as you describe them. The purpose of the Bible is to propagate a weltbild that gives importance to a people that would otherwise be historically and theologically irrelevant: the Israelites and their offspring. The relevance of the Bible does not lie in the rules it gives but in the worthiness it assigns to people as to determine the value of a human through his/her descent and belief.


Hello i have actually read the bible, and therefore by your logic am free to bitch. Those "minor" issues you speak about have actually caused, and helped to justify the persecution of homosexuals, such as myself, amongst many other peoples. So i'd have to disagree and say that whilst the original relevance lay not there, that in todays world, and this thread, it is pretty bloody important and relevant.

It's a religion, for pete's sake. Let them be.
Smart word choice

Smart word choice
Yeah well, heaven, God, even Pete (as in the saint) ...
wouldn't want to offend.

Hello i have actually read the bible, and therefore by your logic am free to bitch. Those "minor" issues you speak about have actually caused, and helped to justify the persecution of homosexuals, such as myself, amongst many other peoples. So i'd have to disagree and say that whilst the original relevance lay not there, that in todays world, and this thread, it is pretty bloody important and relevant.
Read with the understanding thing again!

Mostly it's people who justify persecution. I know that there are people who'd call themselves Christians but who would be perfectly happy screaming in a homosexual's face about how dirty and wrong they are. The person on the receiving end might say "don't try and take out the speck of dust in my eye while there's a plank in yours." In a nice way. If they stop shouting at any point. A Christian's point should be "my beliefs say that a part of your life is wrong". I think it's James' letter Chapter 5 (I heard it on the radio. BBC Radio 4) that basically says if you point out to someone that something they're doing is wrong then you're helping them.

Of course if this someone isn't a Christian then there are bigger issues for a Christian to deal with than who's in their bed..

The bible has no more relevance than any other ancient text that people have built organized religion around.

All of this crap about the bible. Show some respect. You don't have to read about it or believe in it,but you could at least keep your mouth shut. The biggest thing about the bible is that it is NOT TO BE TAKEN IN A LITERAL SENSE.

All of this crap about the bible. Show some respect. You don't have to read about it or believe in it,but you could at least keep your mouth shut. The biggest thing about the bible is that it is NOT TO BE TAKEN IN A LITERAL SENSE.In what sense then? Ancient texts are in no way less clear than modern texts. The constantly repeated thought that the Bible's meanings need interpretation to be understood is wrong for almost all of its contents.

All of this crap about the bible. Show some respect. You don't have to read about it or believe in it,but you could at least keep your mouth shut. The biggest thing about the bible is that it is NOT TO BE TAKEN IN A LITERAL SENSE.

Many Christians take literally the parts they want, and figuratively the parts they don't care for.

Does anyone know what an allegory is?Isn't that something like a crocodilly?

Isn't that something like a crocodilly?
Brilliantly found. I applaud you

let's be serious, ovre 95% of the Christians never read the Bibile, nor to they know first-hand what it says.

So I agree to the fact that it is as relevant as any other ancient text. However, it is a bit more alegorical and covers a much longer span of time than any other text. If Christianity wouldn't have become such a big religion, we wouldn't be talking about the Bible now. Christianity is so popular not because of the Bibile and the story it tells, but because is less strict than other religions.

I don't know much about Islam or other religions, but I think that Christianity is the only religion that pardons you on your dying bed after a life of sin merely because you truly regret what you've done.

Amen!

The Bible is not a text, it is a collection of texts that have been put together pretty intentionally to serve a specific purpose. And the use of allegory does not disturb the clarity of those texts at all. The Bible is pretty clear in the description of who god is and what he wants, or at least what the clerics in his temple want him to want...

In what sense then? Ancient texts are in no way less clear than modern texts. The constantly repeated thought that the Bible's meanings need interpretation to be understood is wrong for almost all of its contents.
Ancient text is as clear as modern, but back then, everything was written as stories, not as clear facts. You know the animal tales by Aisopos, where there was always an educational part in the end. The same style is used in Bible. You know it took several hundred years to write it down. The stories had gone through generations before they were written. Stories are easier to remember.

let's be serious, over 95% of the Christians never read the Bibile, nor to they know first-hand what it says.

I don't know much about Islam or other religions, but I think that Christianity is the only religion that pardons you on your dying bed after a life of sin merely because you truly regret what you've done.

Amen!

That stat would be fun to prove. How good's your Mandarin? Fancy going to Iraq to find out about the Christians there?

True on the death bed thing, but it's a rare case.

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but when a book tells me that the way to discover if my girlfriend is cheating on me is to make her drink muddy water, even if it was designed by God, it seems that it's lost all it's relevance. Sure, this is just one case where the Bible seems crazy, but there are phrases saying that a man who loves his children beats them up, that slaves are acceptable, that eating shelfish is a sin. Then there's the phrases that contradict themselves, telling us that homosexuality is an abomination yet we should love thy neighbour.

It just seems a little weird to be preaching from this book, and judging decisions on it, if you know what I mean. Your thoughts?


AN UNBELIEVER!

PERSECUTE, KILL THE HERETIC!

Some of us have actually read the bible front and back: Numbers was the longest part I thought. All those numbers! It was hard to keep up...



I dunno, maybe it's just me, but when a book tells me that the way to discover if my girlfriend is cheating on me is to make her drink muddy water, even if it was designed by God, it seems that it's lost all it's relevance. Sure, this is just one case where the Bible seems crazy, but there are phrases saying that a man who loves his children beats them up, that slaves are acceptable, that eating shelfish is a sin. Then there's the phrases that contradict themselves, telling us that homosexuality is an abomination yet we should love thy neighbour.
You do know you have to ask Heavenly Father what is needed personally. Its like a doctor giving someone a perscription for medicine and you using it. You were not perscribed the medicine what you are doing is illegal ask/get permission first! Prayer is a way to ask by the way. Though it might be tough to pray for the first time. Try to finda quiet place without distractions.

Slaves were accepted because the secular laws allowed it. And even then you could only own a slave 7 years before you had to release them. At least if you are listening to the bible.
Eating shellfish isn't directly a sin but you are polluting your body. Do you know how clean those water ways were? It was sanitary reasons. People pooped and peed in that water.
Shellfish are filter feeders: so you know that would be unsanitary.

Loving your neighbor means the person. Homosexuality is a sin but the person should still be loved and helped to understand it is wrong to do that act.
Only sexually active homos are sinning. At least if they have asked for forgiveness of passed deeds and meant it.

That stat would be fun to prove.

I can't prove that stat, obviously... And I might have exagerated the figure. But, all in all, the number of Christians that read their fundamental book is VERY low.

I can't prove that stat, obviously... And I might have exaggerated the figure. But, all in all, the number of Christians that read their fundamental book is VERY low.
Definitely lower than it should be, you're right. Christians in places like China though, find it very difficult to get access to a Bible. Mostly they get tracts or bits of it, whatever can be brought in for them. "hmm is that a Bible you're carrying?" Well.. err" "DIE TRAITOR TO OUR BELOVED COUNTRY" :mp5:

There is a difference in designed and inspired. We are all designed by God but only the ones that choose to be inspired completly by God will understand it. We are all inspired by God, it just becomes a matter of how much we choose to accept it. We all have a purpose. God loves you unconditionally. Even after you denounce to accept Gods love. Now thats power in my eyes.

The Bible is not a text, it is a collection of texts that have been put together pretty intentionally to serve a specific purpose. And the use of allegory does not disturb the clarity of those texts at all. The Bible is pretty clear in the description of who god is and what he wants, or at least what the clerics in his temple want him to want...
The use of allegory is interpreting the Bible in a non-literal sense.

Ancient text is as clear as modern, but back then, everything was written as stories, not as clear facts. You know the animal tales by Aisopos, where there was always an educational part in the end. The same style is used in Bible. You know it took several hundred years to write it down. The stories had gone through generations before they were written. Stories are easier to remember.The same style is NOT used in the Bible. No way. The Bible is not elaborately narrating stories, it gives plain theological and historical accounts.

The same style is NOT used in the Bible. No way. The Bible is not elaborately narrating stories, it gives plain theological and historical accounts.
The OT does yes. Helio probably meant the New Testament where parables are used a lot, ad nauseam to most of the disciples, "Jesus, what does this mean? Tell us now, simply, in aramaic, or we're going back to fishing!"

Consider the lily...

Never forget that "bible" is a word created by combining the words "bile" and "babble."

Unless you are a pre-industrial nomad living in Palestine, the Bible should have no meaning for you.

Hell, I'm taking a Humanities course right now on "The Roots of Western Culture." We're studying the Bible. It's very mundane. Right off the bat you see the influences from Mesopotamian culture and the political climate as well as on-going reinterpretation of history and series of events to suit the differening theologies of writers over time.

Get your teacher fired then..

The relevance of the Bible does not lie in the rules it gives but in the worthiness it assigns to people as to determine the value of a human through his/her descent and belief.So we can assume you're pro gay marriage, anti creationist and many other worthy things.
Gosh, a Christian I can almost take seriously.

Relevance of the Bible?

A) Nothing

OR

B) A really long boring horror novel.

let's be serious, ovre 95% of the Christians never read the Bibile, nor to they know first-hand what it says.


Can you back up those statistics with a valid source or is this a matter of (your) opinion? Using percentages implies factual, reference material and I'd venture a guess that isn't the case, here.

I'm a (Catholic) Christian and have read my bible. Many of my Christian friends not only read their bible but study it alone and in groups. How odd would it be that the only 5% of the Christian population reading their bible are all people I know?

I don't know much about Islam or other religions, but I think that Christianity is the only religion that pardons you on your dying bed after a life of sin merely because you truly regret what you've done.

I have read both the Bible and Koran, so I can bitch about both. Islam is also a religion that "pardons you" on your dying bed etc., and is neither worse nor better than Christianity. Both books are equally irrelevant in my opinion, as humans provide better reasons than gods for loving your neighbours etc. Both books are unfortunately taken as justification for evil practices. :(

Can you back up those statistics with a valid source or is this a matter of (your) opinion? Using percentages implies factual, reference material and I'd venture a guess that isn't the case, here.

I'm a (Catholic) Christian and have read my bible. Many of my Christian friends not only read their bible but study it alone and in groups. How odd would it be that the only 5% of the Christian population reading their bible are all people I know?
To be fair he already apologised for the 95% stat but it's poignant in the fact that many 'Christians' hardly touch their Bible at all.

88.5% of statistics are made up on the spot

The bible, like any book, is a product of it's age. When it was written it suited the existing society, that is: a small scale agricultural society before the scientific revolution, facing strong external pressure. Because making changes to a 'holy book' is rejected as blasphemy, these books are outdated when society changes. Applying the bible to modern society is like using ancient Greek medicine-theory to cure a patient. Therefore the bible is irrelevant for our time.

(this applies not only to other religious texts, but also to social theories like Marxism in it's original form)

The bible, like any book, is a product of it's age. When it was written it suited the existing society, that is: a small scale agricultural society before the scientific revolution, facing strong external pressure. Because making changes to a 'holy book' is rejected as blasphemy, these books are outdated when society changes. Applying the bible to modern society is like using ancient Greek medicine-theory to cure a patient. Therefore the bible is irrelevant for our time.
What's that oath those doctor people take again? I can't remember...

Using an ancient phrase (oath of Hippocrates) is something else then applying their theories of medicine (including 'bad juices' in the body which cause disease..)

The bible, like any book, is a product of it's age. When it was written it suited the existing society, that is: a small scale agricultural society before the scientific revolution, facing strong external pressure. Because making changes to a 'holy book' is rejected as blasphemy, these books are outdated when society changes. Applying the bible to modern society is like using ancient Greek medicine-theory to cure a patient. Therefore the bible is irrelevant for our time.

(this applies not only to other religious texts, but also to social theories like Marxism in it's original form)

The Old Testament was indeed written in the context of a Bronze Age, agricultural society faced with many external threats, and some of it was written after two of those external threats (the Assyrian empire and the Neo-Babylonian empire) had conquered the land and deported all its leaders.
The New Testament was written in the shadow of the Roman empire, a single superpower dominating the known world (sound familiar?).
Nevertheless, I believe that God was using the writers of the 66 books of the OT and the NT to provide a message to humanity that would last down the centuries, and be translated into enough languages that everyone would hear of His plan for sorting out the world, one willing recruit at a time.
The Bible needs to be read with an understanding of the cultures in which it was written, but the message is timeless.
Human nature has not changed since the Bronze Age, certainly not since the time of Augustus Caesar, therefore the Bible is still relevant.

Using an ancient phrase (oath of Hippocrates) is something else then applying their theories of medicine (including 'bad juices' in the body which cause disease..)
Just an illustration. Besides, if the Bible had been written in modern times someone would have started making crappy films about bits of it.. oh, bugger.