NationStates Jolt Archive

I just want to see what you guys say.

And no, we're not afraid that he'll invade our countries. ;)

because they are far more intelligent because they are not governed by radical christianity

Because he pissed most of them off pre-Iraq war when we decided that we shouldn't follow the advice of the UN Security Council. Because we've spent most of our time picking on them because they're not 'with us'. And the most damning evidence of all: because Bush is so unintelligent, he brings the word 'suck' to a whole new level. Right. Any more questions?

Why do europeans think we care what they think?

I think a more appropriate question is:

Why are the people of EVERY other nation aside from America so Anti-Bush?

That's an innaccurate statement. Israelis and Russians and...well, that's it, but a small majority in those two countries are pro-Bush.

That's an innaccurate statement. Israelis and Russians and...well, that's it, but a small majority in those two countries are pro-Bush.

i forgot about isreal (its not really a country anyways)

russia? really? is this just since the child massacre?

They hate us 'cause were pretty :D

Yeah...I figure its because most Europeans are 'Extreme Leftists' by US standards, and since Georgy boy is maybe a little into the far right our policies and their policies dont go together well.
Other than that, I dont think either the US or the Europeans should try to bugger with the others national/international policies.

Because, like most peoples, Europeans will almost always act in what they see as their own best interests. They don't see President Bush as acting in their best interests, so they dislike his policies.

In addition, most Europeans ( like some Americans ) seem to dislike President Bush's style of politics ( right of center), presentation ( folksy ), and background ( Texas, American Christian, etc. ). The Southern US, including Texas, seems to be a mystery to most Europeans.

Yeah...I figure its because most Europeans are 'Extreme Leftists' by US standards
No, even most of the conservatives I know are anti-Bush.

Most Brits are not anti-war or anti-Bush. But there is one particular member of parliament who was pro-Saddam Hussein, and his name is George Galloway. He even said that British troops should refuse to fight in the war. He is looked upon by many as a traitor. Before the war he was seen bowing to the dictator and saying how great he was. The way Galloway sucked-up to him was sickening. So far, the only thing that has happened to Galloway is that he has been kicked out of the Labour Party.

Why do europeans think we care what they think?

Because your TV news channels spend so much time bitching about us not doing ---- to help you?

Because your TV news channels spend so much time bitching about us not doing ---- to help you?
( shrug ) Shit happens. :D

Probably for the same reasons that so many Americans are anti-Bush.

i forgot about isreal (its not really a country anyways)

yes they are.
the un observe us at big major at 1947.
why you against us?

and by the way, not all the israelis are pro-bush, just the ones you see in your news

I think they most anti-Bush Europeans reside in Scandinavia, where some of the world's most liberal coutnries are (not to say liberalism is bad at all, even tho I'm Libertarian)

I just want to see what you guys say.

And no, we're not afraid that he'll invade our countries. ;)
Europeans have lost perspective.

Because he pissed most of them off pre-Iraq war when we decided that we shouldn't follow the advice of the UN Security Council.
That's because they were all being bought off by Iraq.

Because Europeans are liberals and they hate Bush because he won't jump through the UNs moronic hoops. Personally they more you all hate us they better we are doing for ourselves.

Because Europeans are liberals and they hate Bush because he won't jump through the UNs moronic hoops. Personally they more you all hate us they better we are doing for ourselves.
oh yes of course, preparing to do a nose dive off the highest high dive is really envious.

Europeans have lost perspective.
perspective?

im pretty sure your perspective isnt great when you think you can go rambo in the middle east and kill terrorism and while doing so think you are on a mission from God

That's an innaccurate statement. Israelis and Russians and...well, that's it, but a small majority in those two countries are pro-Bush.

My brother visited Israel. They all hate him there as well. Just cos hes a moron

oh yes of course, preparing to do a nose dive off the highest high dive is really envious.

I don't think we have done anything wrong.

I don't think we have done anything wrong.
you wouldn't


and doesnt it scare any one else that george dubya said during the first debate that putin was doing a good job in russia? everybody remember putin? the former head of the KGB. the guy suppressing and jailing his oppistion so there is no one who can run against him. hella democratic dont you think

Probably because Bush gave the UN the finger when he decided a unilateral invasion of Iraq was a good idea (which it's not). Well, that and the self-righteousness of his supporters, who seem to constantly refer to the UN and Europe as weak and ineffective.

Probably because Bush gave the UN the finger when he decided a unilateral invasion of Iraq was a good idea (which it's not). Well, that and the self-righteousness of his supporters, who seem to constantly refer to the UN and Europe as weak and ineffective.
And this is somehow an incorrect conclusion? Hmm.

And this is somehow an incorrect conclusion? Hmmm

If you could elaborate using more than a sentence fragment, please do so.

Kinda ironic that the other governments facing terrorism that also make bad policy decisions also support Bush.

though i love most Europeans, and i am speaking of Western and Northern Europeans regarding this opinion, I think America now stands for and represents what they fear, something stronger than them and whose philosophy and culture seems to be more succesful than theirs, and i mean that by the left wing cultures of the western and northern european countries, that are by and large failing. social programs cannot be supported as they are, their birth rate means their countries are dying (spain, france and italy are in big, big trouble in the near future) their very system of cultural and economic beliefs are collapsing around them, while hokey george and the ugly americans continue to sport comparably much higher mean and average standards of living and economic strength and productivity. (yeah, european poor people have it a little better than the american poor. ) immigrants flood the US' shores to go with its' higher birth rate which could sustain its' population. and the social programs, while unaffordable in 10-12 years in the US, can be saved and reworked. other than total reform, most european countries are screwed, economically speaking.

I think it is the last gasps of the Euro Marxist left as their societies fade rapidly, even the small, homogenous scandinavian countries, often an example of how socialistic ideals can work when certain circumstances exist, is quickly running against a cost and population implosion. i really feel it is the US ignoring the UN, the last bastion of influence for such past powers as france, and the simple failures of their very societies debunk the entire "cultured and educated" silliness they see themselves as on the european left. that they can be ignored and there is really is nothing they can do but impotently shout "everybody but people who think like me are dumb" is exactly why they hate Bush and everything he represents.....they cannot possibly believe this hokey guy from the barbarian capitalist center can utterly ignore them with no real conequences, thus an in your face example of their point of view and political/philosophical/economic beliefs' failure. because the euro marxist experiment has largely failed. again. it has never been difficult for peoples' leaders to shift their anger and dissatisfaction to a scapegoat....and the big boy on the block is always a popular target for it.....so hate away. and the whole "when the european union comes together it will be bigger" nonsense, look at your own economic board panels, you aren't even close to unifying or competing, and the focus on education and innovation that the dems brought to the table in this election is being used by both, gov spending will now augment the free market machine that spits out patent after patent. and in 20 years, the US population projects to over 400 million, too.....impotence can be a very rage causing thing, especially when mixed with the arrogance about nothing in particular you see on the european left, and yes, often the left on this board.....so they are MAD at the US and BUSHIE! lol.

though i do agree the world may stop rotating if the dems or republicans actually came out with an effective candidate.

People from other countries will always dislike a president that does'nt pretend they matter....It's pretty funny that the ones who dislike us the most are the ones that use our products on a daily basis. :p

Europeans are anti-Bush because he acknowledges that, with the exception of Great Britain, Italy and Poland, Europeans are worthless bags of shit barely worthy of being alive.

i think Europeans are anti-Bush because he is empirical evidence of the ignorance, bigotry, and flat out stupidity of a large segment of the American population. remember, even though Gore won the popular vote it was still a close thing, and that means that there are piles of Americans who genuinely think Bush is a good leader. Europeans are, rightly, horrified that such ignorance still exists in the most wealthy and powerful nation in the world.

American's don't think alike. Don't paint with such a broad brush.

because they are far more intelligent because they are not governed by radical christianity

Far more intelligent...than Americans? That's a gross generalization, but Europeans are anti-Bush for the same reason that half of America is anti-Bush...Bush is a stupid oil craving ignorant hick.

everyone has their own reasons for liking or disliking bush, even those europeans :) besides, half or more of America dislike him just as much :cool:

i think Europeans are anti-Bush because he is empirical evidence of the ignorance, bigotry, and flat out stupidity of a large segment of the American population. remember, even though Gore won the popular vote it was still a close thing, and that means that there are piles of Americans who genuinely think Bush is a good leader. Europeans are, rightly, horrified that such ignorance still exists in the most wealthy and powerful nation in the world.
I think that's more true for Anti-Bush Americans and, Canadians(such as myself) than would for Europeans but still works.

Because George W. Bush is a damn idiot, that's why.

And just to clarify, about half of Americans dislike Bush as well, it's just the other half are gung-ho about the bastard.

He and his loyal followers embody every quality of the "Ugly American."

Just my two cents... ;)

Absolute case in point...prior three messages. no point, no valid fact, no debate on issue....just "dumb, rednick, hillybilly, racist," etc......crap. debate of his tax policy? nope.
debate over the affordability of defense and social programs? nope
debate of Iraq and it's possible effects in the future? nope.
debate over how high school and less educated are in a vast majority Democrats and make up a significant percentage of the democratic party? nope.
a study on HOW anyone not democrat is racist, an education/intelligence level by party affiliation or case study? nope

just random idiocy spouted because someone does not go with the modern left. it has something to do with left wing societies failing everywhere, you think, why many oppose the philosophy and those who espouse it, rather than support of a right winger?

and people wonder why so many perfectly intelligent people, often moreso than left or right, dem or repub, are very disconcerted with the neocons of this administration but see the alrnative, the "we are smart and you're dumb just cause i say so!" modern left crowd. the name calling has gotten so tired and absurd it isn;t even worth listening to, and frankly, makes me doubt the intelligence of the leftist accuser, in truth.

and Kerry is a debate society huckset car/snake oil salesman. get a real candidate, anyone unable to beat Bush with his popularity and speaking ability is a total incompetent. you leftys could be called just as much an ignorant stupid redneck for backing a huckster like kerry

There are not enough hours in the day to type up a post about the reasons why George Bush is an idiot. I could talk about his tax policy, his foreign "relations", the energy crisis (oh, wait, that doesn't exist, right?), the "No Child Left Behind" act, and any other NUMBER of things that he has "accomplished" while in office.

It's just that, the people who agree with me know them already; and the people who disagree, their minds' won't change just because I spend 45 minutes typing up a post.

Don't assume that all leftists are ignorant loud-mouths. Many of us are highly intelligent people that don't want to waste your time by trying to explain something that you're going to disagree with anyway.

Europeans want America to be as defeated and whipped as they are. They want us to share the guilt of their bringing African slaves to the west and their failed imperialist attempts at governing. John Kerry shares these defeatist beliefs and President Bush ( $ More Years) will refuse to let America be run by a bunch of defeated peoples. Remember that the Arc di'Triumph has only been march under in victory by 2 armies. One German and One American.

while i agree, there are many of the left are intelligent and informed, and i have had many a wondrous discussion of politics with them, which i CANNOT say of most of my friends of the right wing persuasion. my point is, when your boy is John Kerry, i can see where hating Bush is not enough. it is hardly an example of intelligence to back him, lol. Bush is an idiot. i don;t think there are many who will try to say he is an intellectual wonderkind. but Kerry...far more scary because he isn;t a moron, he is fairly intelligent, but god, he gives me the creeps, he's a lifelong opportunist, and please tell me one thing he has accomplished in his life other than win an election and marry well? it is hardly intelligent to support this man as a choice. you won;t change my mind, no, their both bad choices, i will pick the one who will harm me the least.

and after 10 long years in the economic field and working on my doctorate, i can tell you honestly, neither president is good for the economy or the the government budget, both guys have odd ideas about spending and taxation.

but look around at your mates, gloria, can you honestly say the left is chock full of intellectual wonderkinds? hell, no. i will take you to the next truckers' union rally if you want to see dumb rednecks, lol. i just am unimpressed with the self superior, snide, empty rhetoric of "intelligence"...usually the one who has to tear down their opponents in such way has a major confidence issue thus tries to compensate, lol

but you ae right, bush does suck, and i can point out several economic, philosophical and foreign policy mistakes to back it up....but kerry, i can point out more, therefore, there is no choice than to pick the lesser of two evils. i am no rigth winger. but i sure as hell am not a left winger either.....that's intelligence. support for bush is often out of despair, and a pro kerry voter, frankly, has to be just as or dumber than a pro bushie

Many Europeans are so anti-Bush because they have the brains to realise that what he is doing is making the world a more dangerous place to live in.

If Bush had voiced the intent to do everything he could to promote terrorism then that would have justified his policy on terrorism. As it is, he proclaimed the opposite, and as such, his actions can only be seen as those of one who is truly the epitome of stupidity or a total hypocrite. Another good reason to be anti-Bush.

Some are anti-Bush because they hate America, others because they're ignorant (usually overlapping with the first group), and then there's those that actually have sensible reasons to hate Bush, although with people like Micheal Moore being regular bestsellers in Europe, there's often a mix between the third and second group as well.

Why do so many Europeans and about a third of Americans (the other two thirds being roughly composed of republicans and independants) hate Bush?

Well, in the US, it is just a matter of politics. The nation has always tended towards a 2 party sytem.

And for Europe? Quite simply, Europe's center is further "left" then the US's. So no matter who is up for the US presidency, Europeans will always feel more comfortable with someone who shares their views.

Of course, it doesn't end there.

The president of the US represents ONLY the US, not the world. He is elected by US citizens, put in charge of US assets, and is the chosen leader of US interests.

In the aftermath of WW2, where much of the world's industrial contries were hit hard, and where the Soviet Union acted as an enemy to focus on, even a far right US president wasn't too bad in the eyes of Europeans.

But Europe's capital is mostly rebuilt. The Soviet Union doesn't exist as a shadow to fear (and the terrorist threat certainly does not compare). So suddenly there is less reason to tolerate a Republican as the US President.

And why do Republicans fight back so hard against European disgust? Because this is the US presidential office, not a European or world office.

The idea that foreigners should have a say in who we as Americans vote as our own president, to represent us, is repulsive. How would Europeans feel about us having a say in their leaders?

Despite European opinion largely backing democrat ideals, it is my opinion that the constant push by many Europeans for Americans to vote left is counterproductive.

"The US president is my leader, I get to choose, and damnit, if you keep screaming in my ear, I may well choose the guy you hate most just to spite you."

europeans this, europeans that.. Europe is not a country! there's at least as much political diversity in Europe as in the us (a good deal more i think).

People from other countries will always dislike a president that does'nt pretend they matter....It's pretty funny that the ones who dislike us the most are the ones that use our products on a daily basis. :p


Really? Do you think there is a connection? ;)

The idea that foreigners should have a say in who we as Americans vote as our own president, to represent us, is repulsive. How would Europeans feel about us having a say in their leaders?



Absolutely, of course, I agree. And no non-American citizens will have a say, so you don't need to worry. No major political leader in Europe has said "I would like Bush to lose", they're not that undiplomatic - unlike Bush, who has publically told the EU to let Turkey in ASAP.

We are, however, entitled to our opinions and to express them, just as Americas are (eg against communism etc). It's no different.

On another note, it amazes me how so many Americans take critisism of their President as a direct critisism of their entire country. The two things should be viewed separately. Whilst there are some Europeans who dislike the USA as a country, the vast vast vast majority of critisism of Bush is aimed at Bush and his administration, not the entire USA as a whole.

I don't hate Bush, I just don't give a sh*t about him. If Blair would just see sense and pull British troops out of Iraq, then I don't really care what the US does.

Antileftism:
i mean that by the left wing cultures of the western and northern european countries, that are by and large failing. social programs cannot be supported as they are, their birth rate means their countries are dying (spain, france and italy are in big, big trouble in the near future) their very system of cultural and economic beliefs are collapsing around them,

Yes we are reforming our welfare state, but that doesn't mean it's failing. Every European can still get health care when needed, every European gets a decent education. No wonder ur social programs are not collapsing, u got none!

Why are many Europeans against the Bush administration? Well some of us are just anti-american, just like some of u seem to be anti-european (at least i get that impression reading through this thread..). Most of us got good reasons for it. Check out a european political site, or a tv channel if you got sattelite. You may find out why we are anti-bush.

Well some of us are just anti-american.
Yes, I am.

we have a multitude of social programs, silly. they just aren;t permanent, require community service, and require the individual to become independent usually after 2 years. quite reasonable, actually, permanent support for peple is flat out dumb. thwe welfare state philosophy is a failure, its' obvious.

btw, in america, you can work only 20 hours a week and get school paid for plus a stiipend for housing if you are a single mother, provided you keep a c average and get a bachelors in no more than 5 years.....but the key words are the no more than, work, c average......our system is a get off your butt and do something state, which is the only one that can work. social security, our retirment program, and medicare, our old persons' medical insurance, is getting whoppingly expensive, it is starting to get more socialistic, which in my view, will be the slow fall from power of the US.....into mediocrity and failure, like france

and yes, i am anti-some european states, very pro most other european states...care to guess the one i wish we would break ties and trade with completely? i will say europe seems to have a healthier attitude about sex and not as permissive (as it should be) about violence.....

Antileftism:

Every European can still get health care when needed, every European gets a decent education. No wonder ur social programs are not collapsing, u got none!
.

How peculiar - we got the same thing happening in the US - but WITHOUT all of the beurocratic spending.

I think they most anti-Bush Europeans reside in Scandinavia, where some of the world's most liberal coutnries are (not to say liberalism is bad at all, even tho I'm Libertarian)
Yeah, the Scandinavians are anti-Bush too, but I don't think that they are any more so than those of us in the West, East and South.

Because Europeans are liberals and they hate Bush
We're not all liberals. There are plenty of conservatives here and they hate Bush as much as the lefties.

i mean that by the left wing cultures of the western and northern european countries, that are by and large failing.
Our cultures aren't left-wing. If you have a look most European governments are right-wing. Also, European countries aren't failing. If they were, then why do several European countries have a higher standard of living than the almighty, infallible USA.

That's because they were all being bought off by Iraq.
Most of the European population? I don't think so! Just the governments of France and Germany. The people in every country were also anti-war but for different reasons.

Europeans want America to be as defeated and whipped as they are.
I'm glad to say that you're entirely wrong. We don't feel "defeated and whipped" and we don't want America to be either. If we did surely we would dislike every US president with as much zeal, no?

i think Europeans are anti-Bush because he is empirical evidence of the ignorance, bigotry, and flat out stupidity of a large segment of the American population. remember, even though Gore won the popular vote it was still a close thing, and that means that there are piles of Americans who genuinely think Bush is a good leader. Europeans are, rightly, horrified that such ignorance still exists in the most wealthy and powerful nation in the world.
Bottle, you've hit the nail on the head. :)

People from other countries will always dislike a president that does'nt pretend they matter....It's pretty funny that the ones who dislike us the most are the ones that use our products on a daily basis.
We do matter, and we don't hate Americans who make our favourite products.

Europeans are anti-Bush because he acknowledges that, with the exception of Great Britain, Italy and Poland, Europeans are worthless bags of shit barely worthy of being alive.
Fuck off.

(I know that's a flame but that's all this guy deserves.)

Some folks wondered why many americans get upset or consider it an attack on the US when europeans are voicing their opinions about who should be the next president. Simply put, because many people are using that as a reason to vote for one party or another. I've heard several times from individuals and even news media that "europe" doesn't support Bush and that we'd regain popular support for the US if Kerry were elected. Oh, well that's a damn good reason to vote for Kerry, eh? I'm not saying I agree or disagree with Kerry as the next pres, but people /are/ being influenced over here by opinions over there, which is just plain wrong in a government election.

Actually, I suppose it's not wrong, it's just strange that some people's opinions here could be swayed more by what europe thinks than by what they themselves think is the best course for the US.

I also agree with the posts saying in effect that most europeans disagree with anyone in the republican or liberterian parties simply because the center of the political spectrum in europe is more to the left than in the US (or you could say the US is more to the right) ... so the "right wing" of american politics simply looks to you like your far left wing looks to us ... radical and offensive.

And no, we're not afraid that he'll invade our countries. ;)
uhm to invade anything they must be outside in the first place :eek:

i think Europeans are anti-Bush because he is empirical evidence of the ignorance, bigotry, and flat out stupidity of a large segment of the American population. remember, even though Gore won the popular vote it was still a close thing, and that means that there are piles of Americans who genuinely think Bush is a good leader. Europeans are, rightly, horrified that such ignorance still exists in the most wealthy and powerful nation in the world.
I think it's more ignorant to say the popular vote means anything when less than half of the country votes. By your logic, the country actually would rather have NO government, and anyone who supports the idea of governance is an ignorant, bigoted, and stupid member of society. People with far more intelligence than you have voted for Bush or for Gore, and most of them are probably less bigoted as well.

And why do Republicans fight back so hard against European disgust? Because this is the US presidential office, not a European or world office.

The idea that foreigners should have a say in who we as Americans vote as our own president, to represent us, is repulsive. How would Europeans feel about us having a say in their leaders?

Nobody is suggesting that Americans should have to vote in a president who represents the world rather than them. But that doesn't take away our right to hate your president.

And why do Republicans fight back so hard against European disgust? In my opinion it's because they are radical nationalists, with anti-European attitudes bordering on racist.

care to guess the one i wish we would break ties and trade with completely?
I'll guess France. Breaking ties with them on trade would damage your economy greatly. Last time I checked economic interaction between the US and France is at an all-time high. Is it worth it just to placate your spiteful emotions?

Breaking political ties would be short sighted. It would be the wrong thing to do if you want peace in the world. But right-wing Americans hate peace and love war, right?

But right-wing Americans hate peace and love war, right?
Yeah, and niggers hate work and love raping white women, right? Stop being a bigot.

I dont KNOW that most Europeans do have a distaste for Bush.
I know most on NS are, but hat would make a total idiot to count that as reasonable snapshot of European opinion.
I also know that most Europeans on NS imprint their distaste for Bush on the American people.
I perceive from most Europeans(only on NS) a very real sense of Elitism and superiority when they speak of Americans as a whole.
I do agree that the American Ego is quite inflated, but for good reason.
One thing that feeds that Ego, is the interest shown in American politics by Europeans.
The Average American could careless about European politics as the Democratic process goes(If you are talking about a dictatorship and civil unrest that changes).
However the politics of a functioning Europeans Democracy mean nothing on the "Street" in America.
I am amazed that a European cares at all about who is in the WhiteHouse, the only logical reason is that it greatly effects them(logical by American Standards).
Whatever, I am ranting.
Like I started with, I dont know that most Europeans do actually have a distaste for Bush. I know the ones on NS do, and I couldnt careless if I didnt know it at all.
I also sincerely hope that they could careless whether I am interested in their politics.

I like cultures, that is what interests me, not some political figure who will go with the breeze and be foot note in history.

Yeah, and niggers hate work and love raping white women, right? Stop being a bigot.
Yeah, I suppose it was unfair. But it was hard to resist saying it when Antileftism said that "Europeans are not permissive enough of violence".

Yeah, I suppose it was unfair. But it was hard to resist saying it when Antileftism said that "Europeans are not permissive enough of violence".
I'm not saying it's ok to stereotype Europeans. But, if you just throw around insults on both sides then people get pissed off and nothing gets done. Surprisingly, most of the people I hang out with are liberals, despite being a die-hard conservative myself. As long as you don't bait people with things you know will piss people off, everyone can be friends.

I dont KNOW that most Europeans do have a distaste for Bush.
I know most on NS are, but hat would make a total idiot to count that as reasonable snapshot of European opinion.

I also know that most Europeans on NS imprint their distaste for Bush on the American people.
I perceive from most Europeans(only on NS) a very real sense of Elitism and superiority when they speak of Americans as a whole.
Yes, most Europeans are actually anti-Bush. Support for the war has never risen above 30% in almost all countries here. A recent survey showed that most Europeans, in every country, would vote against Bush if they could. The only country where he would win was Poland. Also, the vast majority of people I know (of all ages and political persuasions) hope that Bush is defeated in this election.

Most Europeans like Americans, but dislike your government.
Could you give examples of this elitism, if it exists at all?

And why do Republicans fight back so hard against European disgust? In my opinion it's because they are radical nationalists, with anti-European attitudes bordering on racist.
That word it self initiates a response, your language is designed to provoke.
Then you act surprised when it works.
You use words like:Hate,Disgust,Radical, and Racist.
Then cry foul when someone defends themselves?


I'll guess France. Breaking ties with them on trade would damage your economy greatly. Last time I checked economic interaction between the US and France is at an all-time high. Is it worth it just to placate your spiteful emotions?
Well then you need to check again as France is under oing major Nationalist shifts blocking foreign purchaes from the both the US and Germany.

Breaking political ties would be short sighted. It would be the wrong thing to do if you want peace in the world. But right-wing Americans hate peace and love war, right?
Political ties cannot be broken, that is fallacy.
Taking a "Cold" stance with trade partner is a common response to dissatisfaction with their end of the relationship, it has been used since the end of WWII between Brittain, France, and the United States*. It is the way those respective governments "snubb" each other over policies.

*This later came to include Russia, Japan and Germany

Absolutely, of course, I agree. And no non-American citizens will have a say, so you don't need to worry. No major political leader in Europe has said "I would like Bush to lose", they're not that undiplomatic - unlike Bush, who has publically told the EU to let Turkey in ASAP.

We are, however, entitled to our opinions and to express them, just as Americas are (eg against communism etc). It's no different.

On another note, it amazes me how so many Americans take critisism of their President as a direct critisism of their entire country. The two things should be viewed separately. Whilst there are some Europeans who dislike the USA as a country, the vast vast vast majority of critisism of Bush is aimed at Bush and his administration, not the entire USA as a whole.

Nobody is suggesting that Americans should have to vote in a president who represents the world rather than them. But that doesn't take away our right to hate your president.

And why do Republicans fight back so hard against European disgust? In my opinion it's because they are radical nationalists, with anti-European attitudes bordering on racist.



I'm not worried that Europeans (or anyone else) will get a direct say in who is elected for the US Presidency. And certainly it is your right to like/hate how you want. My point is that the constant heckling actually has a tendency to put US voters on the defensive. And no, the vast majority of criticism isn't aimed at just Bush, which make it all the worse.

Did you see the post above that spoke of Europes diversity of politics?

There is a political theory (a realist theory I can't remember the name of) that describes a similar behavior...that between two waring states. According to it, each state sees itself as devided, and the other as a unified enemy.

Example: Israelis tend to see Palestinians as a group, rather then as a number of individuals and organizations each with their own goals. Likewise, Palestinians tend to see Israelies as a group, rather then as a number of individuals and organizations each with their own ideals.

This theory can be applied to any conflict anywhere. India and Pakastan, Russia and Chechnya, PRC and Taiwan, North and South Korea...even this war of words between Europeans and Americans here.

Many Europeans fail to differentiate between Bush and other Americans (who may or may not support him), and many Americans fail to differentiate between verbal attacks on the US president, and attacks on their nation, or on themselves.

The whole mess tends to polorize the sides, and we Americans get very very very defensive.

So I am not worrying about Europeans getting a say, I am trying to explain some of the mechanisms behind dislike of Bush, and its aftereffects here.

There is a predominant perception in America that Europe's average political climate is equivalent to what we would consider very liberal. I really have no idea whether it's true or not, but I do believe Europe is, overall, more liberal than the US, which at the moment has a fairly conservative political climate. Regardless, the conservative media tries to portray Europe as being supportive of Bush, but since the conservative media these days is rather outnumbered by the liberal media, who want to portray Europe as being anti-Bush, if not anti-American, we tend to only see evidence that you guys across the pond are against him, and by extension, us.

Then there's also the fact that the majority of the world dislikes our current government. It's far easier for most people to simply say "everyone" than "everyone but these exceptions," heheh.

Personally, I really don't care. Apart from the war, I don't think Bush has done all that bad a job, and I honestly can't believe that Kerry would do any better. So seeing as I live in Texas, where only votes for Bush matter, I'm probably going to vote for Badnarik.

Yes, most Europeans are actually anti-Bush. Support for the war has never risen above 30% in almost all countries here. A recent survey showed that most Europeans, in every country, would vote against Bush if they could. The only country where he would win was Poland. Also, the vast majority of people I know (of all ages and political persuasions) hope that Bush is defeated in this election.

Most Europeans like Americans, but dislike your government.
Could you give examples of this elitism, if it exists at all?
The current "tone" of your posts towards Americans.
Is a prime example of Elitist European mentality(on NS).
What survey?
By whom?
30% where?
You follow the demographics in all European countries?
Amazing.
All political persuasions? SO even the Radical Right wingers you speak of want Bush to lose?

bunch of stuff......Personally, I really don't care. Apart from the war, I don't think Bush has done all that bad a job, and I honestly can't believe that Kerry would do any better. So seeing as I live in Texas, where only votes for Bush matter, I'm probably going to vote for Badnarik.
Whats wrong with Badnarik, I would like to see him win, myself.

Most Europeans like Americans, but dislike your government.
Could you give examples of this elitism, if it exists at all?
I siad they were "imprinting".

Many Europeans fail to differentiate between Bush and other Americans (who may or may not support him), and many Americans fail to differentiate between verbal attacks on the US president, and attacks on their nation, or on themselves.

The whole mess tends to polorize the sides, and we Americans get very very very defensive.


Whilst this is undoubtably true to an extent, the Americans do seem to find it far more difficult to differentiate, which I find inexplicable. For instance, you would think France had dropped on atomic bomb on Washington rather than simply refusing to support the conflict on Iraq... the widespread (and totally over the top and plainly ludicrous) France-bashing (and even renaming of French Fries!) since this by some Americans (including the govt) have been very distasteful to watch.

Whilst this is undoubtably true to an extent, the Americans do seem to find it far more difficult to differentiate, which I find inexplicable. For instance, you would think France had dropped on atomic bomb on Washington rather than simply refusing to support the conflict on Iraq... the widespread (and totally over the top and plainly ludicrous) France-bashing (and even renaming of French Fries!) since this by some Americans (including the govt) have been very distasteful to watch.
Americans weren't mad that the French didn't support us, they were mad that the French were actively working against us in the UN and elsewhere.

There is a political theory (a realist theory I can't remember the name of) that describes a similar behavior...that between two waring states. According to it, each state sees itself as devided, and the other as a unified enemy.
Yeah, that's human psychology.

The whole mess tends to polorize the sides, and we Americans get very very very defensive.
I try to understand, but I just get really annoyed when Americans say "OMG Europe=shit we hate you surrender-monkey lefties!1!" I can pull out examples from this thread alone of such anti-European attitudes.

Americans weren't mad that the French didn't support us, they were mad that the French were actively working against us in the UN and elsewhere.

They were doing so because they didn't support the war, which is no worse than the Americans working towards the war in the UN and elsewhere. It just shows that they are principled. I wish my country and others whose populations were very much opposed to the war had made more publically vocal declarations against the war rather than muting them.

I expect now you will tell me that the French government are evil and were trying to protect their extensive Iraqi business interests rather than democractically reflecting the majority (anti-war) opinion of their citizens.

The current "tone" of your posts towards Americans.
Is a prime example of Elitist European mentality(on NS).
What survey?
By whom?
30% where?
You follow the demographics in all European countries?
Amazing.
All political persuasions? SO even the Radical Right wingers you speak of want Bush to lose?
Here's the proof, if you needed it, that Europeans are mostly opposed tot he war in Iraq:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2747175.stm

Does this make us elitists?


I don't know any radical right-wingers but I do know conservatives. Most of them hope that Bush will be defeated.

Here's the proof, if you needed it, that Europeans are mostly opposed tot he war in Iraq:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2747175.stm

Does this make us elitists?


I don't know any radical right-wingers but I do know conservatives. Most of them hope that Bush will be defeated.
You said all political puersuasions?
You said in your other post "Every one of them"

They were doing so because they didn't support the war, which is no worse than the Americans working towards the war in the UN and elsewhere. It just shows that they are principled. I wish my country and others whose populations were very much opposed to the war had made more publically vocal declarations against the war rather than muting them.

I expect now you will tell me that the French government are evil and were trying to protect their extensive Iraqi business interests rather than democractically reflecting the majority (anti-war) opinion of their citizens.
I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right. I'm simply establishing causality. The reason the Americans don't like the French is because the French threatened to veto something they felt needed to be done. If the tables were turned the French would act in the same way.

From your source.
"The Forsa poll found 57% of Germans held the opinion that "the United States is a nation of warmongers".
57% of Germans think AMreica is full of warmongers, that is against Americans not Bush inparticular--good to know though.
well that is a little thin, but it does cover what you said.
I suppose because most Europeans think AMerica is full of Warmongers, I use the large cross section of Germans in your sited poll as a basis for my opinion.
Fair?

Whilst this is undoubtably true to an extent, the Americans do seem to find it far more difficult to differentiate, which I find inexplicable. For instance, you would think France had dropped on atomic bomb on Washington rather than simply refusing to support the conflict on Iraq... the widespread (and totally over the top and plainly ludicrous) France-bashing (and even renaming of French Fries!) since this by some Americans (including the govt) have been very distasteful to watch.

From my experiance, living here in the states, both when the war started and now that I am in the military, those views aren't so widespread. Most people I've been around laugh at the concept of "Freedom Fries", and mock it by saying "Freedom Poodles" and "Freedom Kissing."

Sadly, it is frequently 2 small minorities of people who have the loudest voices (in every country and group in the world); honest fanatics and trolls looking for fun.

To a lot of people here, it looks like it is the Europeans who have a harder time differentiating.

Personally, I try to think of people as people. No matter where you go, your going to have those fanatics and trolls screaming so loudly that people can't help but hear them. And people being what we really are, we are going to believe that what we believe is right. Afterall, if we thought we were wrong, we would change accordingly, no?

Yeah, that's human psychology.


I try to understand, but I just get really annoyed when Americans say "OMG Europe=shit we hate you surrender-monkey lefties!1!" I can pull out examples from this thread alone of such anti-European attitudes.

I can find examples of that from all sides of all conflicts, in this thread and elsewhere.

Fanatics and trolls.

I'm firmly convinced that the rest of the world save maybe Britain seriously dislikes us, even loathes us because the faces they see of America are often either: Corporate. Trigger-happy. Dubya.

- Asylum Nova