NationStates Jolt Archive

Oh, posts get deleted after a couple of days inactivity.

In order to give all you weekend posters a chance to join, I thought I'd bring this old chestnut out again.

Or maybe the mahogany would be better.

No, the chestnut. Maybe if I took the handles off the mahogany and put them on the chestnut...

Anyway, welcome one and all, sorry I can't stick around today to look after you, but take a seat by the fire, make yourselves comfortable, and I'm sure there must be someone around who knows what this is about and will fill you in on the details and fix you some refreshments (remember, guys, there's no marshmallows at the moment, but they are on order for next weekend's camping trip).

Hope you enjoy your stay.

Phil.

*grabs a seat by the fire and begins to read his book*
"So, any other agnostics about?"

BUMP

What, no other agnostic around?

Uhh...sortof, I guess. I'm not sure on the right word. Believe in a God but not in organised region.

theist, or maybe a deist

I thought deist was right, but it really just means "a person who believes the universe was created by god then abandoned" i believe...

Theism: Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.

Sounds fair enough.

well i believe diversity to be the nature of reality and have never observed infallability to exist or need to.

likewise any natural requirement for nontangable forces and beings to not exist and equaly none for them to bear the slightest resemblence to anything anyone would expect them to, no matter how many people aggreeed on what they expected, and can't seem to immagine why anything in its right mind would ever want to be worshipped, no matter how many universes it might have created.

=^^=
.../\...

lol, basing your entire belief system around sitting on the fence.

what cowards you truly are

Oh, i dont sit on the fence, i'm in a totally different ball-park.

Oh, i dont sit on the fence, i'm in a totally different ball-park.

lol

so stupid metaphores aside

stop being a coward ;)

Bah, i'm not being a coward.

What does it take to prove? Desecrating a few churches? burial sites? peeing in the holy water? Defiling a crucifix?

Consider it done!

i am an agnostic :p

Me, too.

I'm an atheist agnostic in that I don't believe that there is a God, but consider it impossible to be able to know.

Oh, posts get deleted after a couple of days inactivity.Change your settings - click on profile, edit options, under "default thread age cut off" change it from 'show threads from last day'.

Anyway, I'm athiest, not agnostic.

lol, basing your entire belief system around sitting on the fence.

what cowards you truly areThat's not really appropriate. Cut it out.

Unfree People
Forum Moderator

That's not really appropriate. Cut it out.

Unfree People
Forum Moderator

I'm sorry, allow me to elaborate

I personally believe that Agnostiscism is a phase that one must take in self actualizeation, but is only a transitory phase.

At some point one must question what they have been taught, but to maintain a level of doubt about the world seems a hinderence.

As there is no real truth, the end result (ie. God existing or not existing or anything in between) is not really important. You gain nothing in death by being an agnostic that you dont gain in any faith (im not touting faith, i think organized religion is far worse than agnostiscism since it is a system of control where agnostiscism is a system of... umm, doubt?).

Yes, you must contend that you do not know any truth, but at the same time you must (i guess this is MY belief) at least attempt to discern your own place in the cosmos. Its only human ;)


*****edit

what a nice way of telling you all that i think you are stuck in a Freudianesque develepmental phase. lol

I'm sorry, allow me to elaborate

I personally believe that Agnostiscism is a phase that one must take in self actualizeation, but is only a transitory phase.

At some point one must question what they have been taught, but to maintain a level of doubt about the world seems a hinderence.

As there is no real truth, the end result (ie. God existing or not existing or anything in between) is not really important. You gain nothing in death by being an agnostic that you dont gain in any faith (im not touting faith, i think organized religion is far worse than agnostiscism since it is a system of control where agnostiscism is a system of... umm, doubt?).

Yes, you must contend that you do not know any truth, but at the same time you must (i guess this is MY belief) at least attempt to discern your own place in the cosmos. Its only human ;)


*****edit

what a nice way of telling you all that i think you are stuck in a Freudianesque develepmental phase. lol
i don't see why being an agnostic stops me from discerning my own place in the cosmos. in fact, i believe that i would be totally unable to do that if i were anything other than agnostic.

i don't see why being an agnostic stops me from discerning my own place in the cosmos. in fact, i believe that i would be totally unable to do that if i were anything other than agnostic.

once you turn it into a way of defining yourself doesnt it become a belief

or am i being stupid here

Agnostic = doubtful of god or doubtful of beliefs?

i know its semantics, but i think there is a real differance

once you turn it into a way of defining yourself doesnt it become a belief

or am i being stupid here

Agnostic = doubtful of god or doubtful of beliefs?

i know its semantics, but i think there is a real differance
there is no doubt in my agnosticism. i am totally sure that there is no way for me to know whether or not God exists. i do not "doubt" the existence of some higher power, because i simply have no information to go on. i doubt the versions of God that are proposed by all current religions, because all of them have logical or empirical flaws that make them essentially impossible, but that does not say anything about the existence of SOME higher power.

because i can never know whether or not there is a God, and can therefore never know anything about the nature of God, it would be wrong for me to pursue any particular form of worship or anti-worship. i believe that it would be dishonest of me to allow my personal feelings to dictate my conception of reality (any more than they already do), so selecting a religion or a strongly atheist stance would be inappropriate. i can never learn about myself or about my objective place in the cosmos if i allow myself to make up stories or fabricate conclusions based on nothing more than my own emotions...if i do that, i will never be able to get past my own fears and emotional needs, and i can never see "the big picture."

there is no doubt in my agnosticism. i am totally sure that there is no way for me to know whether or not God exists. i do not "doubt" the existence of some higher power, because i simply have no information to go on. i doubt the versions of God that are proposed by all current religions, because all of them have logical or empirical flaws that make them essentially impossible, but that does not say anything about the existence of SOME higher power.

because i can never know whether or not there is a God, and can therefore never know anything about the nature of God, it would be wrong for me to pursue any particular form of worship or anti-worship. i believe that it would be dishonest of me to allow my personal feelings to dictate my conception of reality (any more than they already do), so selecting a religion or a strongly atheist stance would be inappropriate. i can never learn about myself or about my objective place in the cosmos if i allow myself to make up stories or fabricate conclusions based on nothing more than my own emotions...if i do that, i will never be able to get past my own fears and emotional needs, and i can never see "the big picture."

ya, i would agree with a lot of that

we are probably arguing over basic semantics here. I would consider this a set of beliefs that make you something that isnt agnostic. lol, im not sure what it would be, but i have always equated agnostiscism with indescision.

ya, i would agree with a lot of that

we are probably arguing over basic semantics here. I would consider this a set of beliefs that make you something that isnt agnostic. lol, im not sure what it would be, but i have always equated agnostiscism with indescision.
not wanting to sound harsh, but your concept of agnosticism is simply incorrect. to be agnostic is to believe that one cannot know about the existence or non-existence of God. people who are undecided may believe that they CURRENTLY don't know about God, but that is different than facing the permanent inability to know about God. it actually takes a lot of courage to face your own limitations, and to admit that you will never be able to know whether there is a God or not...nothing indecisive about it.

that said, most people use the terms "agnostic" and "atheist" incorrectly, so i can't possibly blame you if you have incorrect impressions of them. most people do use "agnostic" to refer to somebody who is merely undecided about God, even though that is not the meaning of the word.

not wanting to sound harsh, but your concept of agnosticism is simply incorrect. to be agnostic is to believe that one cannot know about the existence or non-existence of God. people who are undecided may believe that they CURRENTLY don't know about God, but that is different than facing the permanent inability to know about God. it actually takes a lot of courage to face your own limitations, and to admit that you will never be able to know whether there is a God or not...nothing indecisive about it.

that said, most people use the terms "agnostic" and "atheist" incorrectly, so i can't possibly blame you if you have incorrect impressions of them. most people do use "agnostic" to refer to somebody who is merely undecided about God, even though that is not the meaning of the word.

I would disagree. I would believe that you have made a determination about your belief in God and are no longer an agnostic. That is just my interpretation of the word and spirituality in general. meh

The word agnostic comes from Ancient Greek. I can't TYPE in ancient greek on my computer, but basically the "gnostic" part comes from the word meaning "to know" and the "a" part negates it.

Take from that what you will.

I'm also an agnostic, by the way :)

Wow!!

The first ever Agnostics Unite! debate; this will go down as a great event in the annals of history (or perhaps the annuals of Beano, at any rate).

Take a seat. Save your energies for the discussions about the meaning of life. Ah, here comes the dessert trolley; perfect timing!

Just to fill anybody in who's still confused: this is Agnostics Unite!, a slightly incorrectly-entitled club for anyone who can tell the difference between agnosticism and atheism. It was inspired by the bigotry you see in many of the religion-based threads you see in this forum, and none is allowed in here (but refreshments are free!!).

In order to avoid people arguing, I won't use my own wording for the definitions this time, but will use those, as I did in another thread, from www.dictionary.com:

Agnostic:
One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

Atheist:
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being.
A godless person.

I'll get the kettle on.

Uhh...sortof, I guess. I'm not sure on the right word. Believe in a God but not in organised region.
You are gnostic like me.
Diest just means you believe in both god and religion.

I'm sorry, allow me to elaborate

I personally believe that Agnostiscism is a phase that one must take in self actualizeation, but is only a transitory phase.

At some point one must question what they have been taught, but to maintain a level of doubt about the world seems a hinderence.

As there is no real truth, the end result (ie. God existing or not existing or anything in between) is not really important. You gain nothing in death by being an agnostic that you dont gain in any faith (im not touting faith, i think organized religion is far worse than agnostiscism since it is a system of control where agnostiscism is a system of... umm, doubt?).

Yes, you must contend that you do not know any truth, but at the same time you must (i guess this is MY belief) at least attempt to discern your own place in the cosmos. Its only human ;)


*****edit

what a nice way of telling you all that i think you are stuck in a Freudianesque develepmental phase. lol
Only by questioning that which you have been taught your whole life, will you find the truth.
And verily, only the truth can make you free.

I'm agnostic..

You are gnostic like me.
Diest just means you believe in both god and religion.

Fascinating! Hope to see you here more often, Whittier.

Twiglet?

Only by questioning that which you have been taught your whole life, will you find the truth.
And verily, only the truth can make you free.

Excellent! Perhaps we should make that the Agnostics Unite! motto. Except maybe the "only the truth can make you free" bit.

Can anyone translate it into Latin?

Fascinating! Hope to see you here more often, Whittier.

Twiglet?
?

I'm agnostic..

Good for you Monkeypimp! I don't think I've seen you in here before. Well, don't just stand there with your coat on, man! Here, let me take that for you, you can have my seat by the fire.

?

Twiglets. They're a knobbly snack with a thin coating of Marmite. Or perhaps you'd prefer the cheesy footballs? Delve in, no one much seems to like them and they go out of date soon. It'd be such a shame to waste them.

solus veritas facere tibi liber

solus veritas facere tibi liber

Marvellous - this thing is really going places!

Here's our new Latin motto, thanks to Whittier:

SOLUS VERITAS FACERE TIBI LIBER

Marvellous - this thing is really going places!

Here's our new Latin motto, thanks to Whittier:

SOLUS VERITAS FACERE TIBI LIBER
it means: "only truth set you free"

it means: "only truth set you free"

Oh. Shit. That won't do. This is all about not knowing the truth. Oh well, this is what we really wanted:

Only by questioning that which you have been taught your whole life, will you find the truth.

I don't believe in agnosticism. It just sounds like another silly, made-up religion. And they have really crummy churches too.

Oh. Shit. That won't do. This is all about not knowing the truth. Oh well, this is what we really wanted:

Only by questioning that which you have been taught your whole life, will you find the truth.
French: Seulement en celui questionnant que l'on vous a enseigné votre vie entière, vous ira faire trouver la vérité

German:
Nur, denjenigen befragend, der Sie Ihr ganzes Leben unterrichtet worden sind, Sie die Wahrheit finden.

Russian: Только расспрашивая тот то, который Вам преподали вашу целую жизнь, будет Вы находить правду.

Spanish: Sólo preguntando el que que le han enseñado su vida entera, le van a encontrar la verdad.

Excellent! Perhaps we should make that the Agnostics Unite! motto.

I rather prefer the motto of the Apathetic Agnostics: We dont know and we dont care.
But then, i am a clergyman of an organized non-religion. As a reverend of The Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic (http://apatheticagnostic.com/) it is my duty to spread the word among the believers and convert them. ;)

Here are the articles of faith:

1. The existence of a Supreme Being is unknown and unknowable.

To believe in the existence of a god is an act of faith. To believe in the nonexistence of a god is likewise an act of faith. There is no evidence that there is a Supreme Being nor is there evidence there is not a Supreme Being. Faith is not knowledge. We can only state with assurance that we do not know.

2. If there is a Supreme Being, then that being appears to act as if apathetic to events in our universe.

All events in our Universe, including its creation, can be explained with or without the existence of a Supreme Being. Thus, if there is indeed a God, then that god has had no more impact than no god at all. To all appearances, any purported Supreme Being is indifferent to our Universe and to its inhabitants.

3. We are apathetic to the existence or nonexistence of a Supreme Being.

If there is a God, and that God does not appear to care, then there is no reason to concern ourselves with whether or not a Supreme Being exists, nor should we have any interest in satisfying the purported needs of that Supreme Being. However, our apathy to the question of God's existence does not necessarily mean we are apathetic about promoting agnosticism.

German: Nur wenn du ständig hinterfragst was dich gelehrt wurde wirst du die Wahrheit finden.

Tantum per questioning ut quod vos have been doctus vestri universus vita , mos vos reperio verum.

I rather prefer the motto of the Apathetic Agnostics: We dont know and we dont care.
But then, i am a clergyman of an organized non-religion. As a reverend of The Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic (http://apatheticagnostic.com/) it is my duty to spread the word among the believers and convert them. ;)

Here are the articles of faith:

1. The existence of a Supreme Being is unknown and unknowable.

To believe in the existence of a god is an act of faith. To believe in the nonexistence of a god is likewise an act of faith. There is no evidence that there is a Supreme Being nor is there evidence there is not a Supreme Being. Faith is not knowledge. We can only state with assurance that we do not know.

2. If there is a Supreme Being, then that being appears to act as if apathetic to events in our universe.

All events in our Universe, including its creation, can be explained with or without the existence of a Supreme Being. Thus, if there is indeed a God, then that god has had no more impact than no god at all. To all appearances, any purported Supreme Being is indifferent to our Universe and to its inhabitants.

3. We are apathetic to the existence or nonexistence of a Supreme Being.

If there is a God, and that God does not appear to care, then there is no reason to concern ourselves with whether or not a Supreme Being exists, nor should we have any interest in satisfying the purported needs of that Supreme Being. However, our apathy to the question of God's existence does not necessarily mean we are apathetic about promoting agnosticism.

German: Nur wenn du ständig hinterfragst was dich gelehrt wurde wirst du die Wahrheit finden.

Fascinating stuff. But you kind of negate your non-religion's title with the last point. Never mind, I'm sure you can add your own kind of sparkle to our community!

2. If there is a Supreme Being, then that being appears to act as if apathetic to events in our universe.

All events in our Universe, including its creation, can be explained with or without the existence of a Supreme Being. Thus, if there is indeed a God, then that god has had no more impact than no god at all. To all appearances, any purported Supreme Being is indifferent to our Universe and to its inhabitants.
How do you know what impact a god would have? I am an agnostic, I don't know how far you go but myself I don't trust senses (or mind and language which are extenctions (right spelling?) of hearing).

I rather prefer the motto of the Apathetic Agnostics: We dont know and we dont care.

Your refusal to use the humble apostrophe only adds to your non-religious zest. Tell me, which particular historic religious event involving the apostrophe provoked this grammatical crusade?

Have an iced bun; try the pink ones, they're delicious.

Tantum per questioning ut quod vos have been doctus vestri universus vita , mos vos reperio verum.

Are you sure that questioning, have and been are genuine Latin words?

Why don't you think about that whilst nibbling on this pretzel? Juice?

I rather prefer the motto of the Apathetic Agnostics: We dont know and we dont care.
But then, i am a clergyman of an organized non-religion. As a reverend of The Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic (http://apatheticagnostic.com/) it is my duty to spread the word among the believers and convert them. ;)

Here are the articles of faith:

1. The existence of a Supreme Being is unknown and unknowable.

To believe in the existence of a god is an act of faith. To believe in the nonexistence of a god is likewise an act of faith. There is no evidence that there is a Supreme Being nor is there evidence there is not a Supreme Being. Faith is not knowledge. We can only state with assurance that we do not know.

2. If there is a Supreme Being, then that being appears to act as if apathetic to events in our universe.

All events in our Universe, including its creation, can be explained with or without the existence of a Supreme Being. Thus, if there is indeed a God, then that god has had no more impact than no god at all. To all appearances, any purported Supreme Being is indifferent to our Universe and to its inhabitants.

3. We are apathetic to the existence or nonexistence of a Supreme Being.

If there is a God, and that God does not appear to care, then there is no reason to concern ourselves with whether or not a Supreme Being exists, nor should we have any interest in satisfying the purported needs of that Supreme Being. However, our apathy to the question of God's existence does not necessarily mean we are apathetic about promoting agnosticism.

German: Nur wenn du ständig hinterfragst was dich gelehrt wurde wirst du die Wahrheit finden.
1. existence of a Confuto Res est incompertus quod unknowable. Ut puto in existence of a deus est an factum of fides. Ut puto in nonexistence of a deus est pariter an factum of fides. Illic est haud testimonium ut illic est a Confuto Res neque nec est illic testimonium illic est non a Confuto Res. Fides est non scientia. Nos can tantum civitas per fides ut nos operor ignoro.
2. Si illic est a Confuto Res , tunc ut res videor actio tanquam apathetic ut vices in nostrum universum. Totus vices in nostrum Universum , comprehendo suus partum can exsisto persolvo per vel vacuus existence of a Confuto Res. Sic , si illic est vero a Deus , tunc ut deus has had haud magis labefactum quam haud deus procul totus. Ut totus vultus , ullus purported Confuto Res est indifferens ut nostrum Universum quod ut suus commorantes.
3. Nos es apathetic ut existence vel nonexistence of a Confuto Res. Si illic est a Deus , quod ut Deus does non videor ut tutela , tunc illic est haud causa contingo ourselves per utrum necne a Confuto Res futurus , neque nec should nos have ullus penitus in expletio purported postulo illius Confuto Res. Vero , nostrum slowness ut question of God's existence does non necesse vilis nos es apathetic super proveho agnosticism.

Are you sure that questioning, have and been are genuine Latin words?

Why don't you think about that whilst nibbling on this pretzel? Juice?
they're not, but there is no word for them in latin.

they're not, but there is no word for them in latin.

This new learning is fascinating, Whittier. Tell me again how a sheep's bladder may be employed to prevent earthquakes.

Oh no, wait, wrong thread...

weeee *pulls up a chair by the fire* who brought sodas?

weeee *pulls up a chair by the fire* who brought sodas?

Well, I suppose I can send Jeeves around the corner for some, what are they called again? Sodas? Amazing what they can pass off for beverages these days.

Well, I suppose I can send Jeeves around the corner for some, what are they called again? Sodas? Amazing what they can pass off for beverages these days.

Why not have some nice Pimms instead?

Pimms?

Tell me, which particular historic religious event involving the apostrophe provoked this grammatical crusade?

This has more to do with regional matters. I dont bother with apostrophes, since they are near to extinct in my mothers tongue, which is german, and i am not used to typing them. :p

does anyone bother with them anymore?

does anyone bother with them anymore?

No. Privately I think they should all be shot, but that doesn't sit well with this thread's genial nature, so instead I propose, as our first charity event, to hold a bring and buy sale. All proceeds will go towards the funding of a new Care Home for the Elderly and Infirm Apostrophe.

How do you know what impact a god would have? I am an agnostic, I don't know how far you go but myself I don't trust senses (or mind and language which are extenctions (right spelling?) of hearing).

Then you are a nihilist and i did not answer you in this post. :P In earnest, if you do not trust your senses or your mind, why do you bother to ask me? I am even far more remote and untrustworthy than yourself.

Then you are a nihilist and i did not answer you in this post. :P In earnest, if you do not trust your senses or your mind, why do you bother to ask me? I am even far more remote and untrustworthy than yourself.

I always saw you as a shady character. Here, give me a hand with this new sofa, will you? There's a quiz machine in the van when we're done with that.

Well, as there is a fellow man of the clergy here, i won't bother repeating him...

<helps with the sofa>

besides i brought these....

<brings over a crate of 48 Budvar (chilled) and sits on sofa>

whats the point in talkin when you should be drinkin beer :D

Well, as there is a fellow man of the clergy here, i won't bother repeating him...

<helps with the sofa>

besides i brought these....

<brings over a crate of 48 Budvar (chilled) and sits on sofa>

whats the point in talkin when you should be drinkin beer :D

Bit early for me I'm afraid - I'll have an orange juice. I think it's about time I stopped carting furniture around and took the weight off my feet. So what do you think of this place now then, eh? Starting to feel like home already.

certainly does. its lunch time where i am, so i think one will do :)

<pulls lever at side of sofa and leg rest smoothly rolls up>

thats better, actually, this things tilted

<looks under the sofa>

one of the legs has gone dammit

<picks up copy of the bible and wedges it under the sofa>

now thats a good use of waste paper :p


edit: before somebody flames me for that remark, you may want to note i am made from asbestos, there for it will not hurt ;) (guess who watched Hot Shots! Part Deux last night.... :D )

*pops top of Mt. Dew* ahhh yes home sweet home. Now, whos up for breakfast?

certainly does. its lunch time where i am, so i think one will do :)

<pulls lever at side of sofa and leg rest smoothly rolls up>

thats better, actually, this things tilted

<looks under the sofa>

one of the legs has gone dammit

<picks up copy of the bible and wedges it under the sofa>

now thats a good use of waste paper :p

Now now, then. Remember, everyone is welcome, just as long as they don't think they're better than everyone else, remember?

Besides, I need that to reach the top bookshelf.

oh ok..... :(

<removes bible and replaces it with the yellow pages>

that better?

everyone can still be welcome, thats just good recycling

oh ok..... :(

<removes bible and replaces it with the yellow pages>

that better?

No, the yellow pages is too thick. Here, use one of these Harry Potter books - one of them's bound to be just right.

oh ok..... :(

<removes bible and replaces it with the yellow pages>

that better?

Nah the bible is thicker, plus we made need the yellow pages...

:D

well, if it helps matters, we could build a coffee table from the spare copies of the Quran, various buddhist holy texts and copies of the Tora scrolls we got lying about, then we have used just about every major religion....

Nah the bible is thicker, plus we made need the yellow pages...

DAMMIT! STOP CONTRADICTING ME!!!

Nah the bible is thicker, plus we made need the yellow pages...


live with out the bible but not with pizza....

gotcha

:D

well, if it helps matters, we could build a coffee table from the spare copies of the Quran, various buddhist holy texts and copies of the Tora scrolls we got lying about, then we have used just about every major religion....

Don't forget to stick a copy of "Chariots of the Gods" in there.

Kellarly, where are you from? I also have lunch time, cheers!

we also need kindling

Don't forget to stick a copy of "Chariots of the Gods" in there.


we'll but the teapot on that....

nice, all we need is some music and we have our selves an nice little place

Kellarly, where are you from? I also have lunch time, cheers!

Yeah, me too (well, quite soon, anyway). And I have the afternoon off to go to a physio appointment. Woo-hoo.

Kellarly, where are you from? I also have lunch time, cheers!


i am currently in germany, although i am british, i am here for my year out from uni, you in germany too rihgt?

we'll but the teapot on that....

nice, all we need is some music and we have our selves an nice little place

We already do - it was in the old thread. I'll just go and get it.

*disappears through door and comes back a few seconds later*

Here you go - "English Classics"

We already do - it was in the old thread. I'll just go and get it.

*disappears through door and comes back a few seconds later*

Here you go - "English Classics"



and what exactly does english classic entail?

we'll but the teapot on that....

nice, all we need is some music and we have our selves an nice little place

How bout Agnositc Front? thats a good band

and what exactly does english classic entail?

Classical music by English composers. We have red velvet dressing gowns and pipes for all guests. I'll get the fire going and brandy or hot toddies for everyone.

and im lost in all these english english words lol

Classical music by English composers. We have red velvet dressing gowns and pipes for all guests. I'll get the fire going and brandy or hot toddies for everyone.


:eek: ok fair enough

<slots head phones into ears and set the player to play>

mmmmmmm, loud guitars, thumping bass and a sweeeeeeeet bit of solo :cool: mmmmm pink floyd :D

I've just pulled out the original thread for you.

I've just pulled out the original thread for you.


that means we have to move the sofa, beer, coffee table and all the other stuff over there?



.....




better get started then