NationStates Jolt Archive

Amendment XIII

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.



Being conscripted into the military seems kind of like involuntary servitude to me...

Doesn't the draft preexist that amendment, though?

Doesn't the draft preexist that amendment, though?


So technically does slavery :)

Doesn't the draft preexist that amendment, though?
Preexist? Huh? How is that a verb?

You'd get laughed out of court. The amendment was to end slavery, and was passed at the end of a war, a war in which the draft was used.

Check out http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_140b.html for a good answer

You'd get laughed out of court. The amendment was to end slavery, and was passed at the end of a war, a war in which the draft was used.

Check out http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_140b.html for a good answer
Wow. That's one of the least intelligent posts I've ever seen.

1) You actually think that I don't know what the original intention of the 13th Amendment was...

2) You think that original intentions are the only intentions that can be applied the constitutional amendments...


The fact of the matter is that the 13th amendment OUTLAWS involuntary servitude...this case has never been argued in court, which is why the draft has continued...

United States v Holmes, 387 F.2d 781, 784 (7th Cir. 1968)
"the power of Congress to raise armies and to take effective measures to preserve their efficiency, is not limited by either the Thirteenth Amendment or the absence of a military emergency."

2) You think that original intentions are the only intentions that can be applied the constitutional amendments...



As a strict constructionist, and someone who doesn't think that idiotic views should be applied to the constitution by idiotic judges for idiotic people, Yes.

The legality depends on whether war was declared or not. If war has not been officially declared, then conscription is illegal. It happened in the Vietnam war, and there were lawsuits concerning it. They were quietly paid off, and the men suing the government that had drafted them were honorably discharged just as quietly. If the veterans decided to form a class-action lawsuit today, I have a feeling it wouldn't be possible to keep it as quiet, and the government would have a lot of esplainin' to do.

In fact, if that happened, it would be the best thing in the world to stop conscription from happening this time. The government couldn't get away with reinstating the draft if they were the focus of a high-profile lawsuit for drafting people illegally last time.

Being conscripted into the military seems kind of like involuntary servitude to me...

Wow, I did a report for school against the draft and I used exactly this point.

United States v Holmes, 387 F.2d 781, 784 (7th Cir. 1968)
"the power of Congress to raise armies and to take effective measures to preserve their efficiency, is not limited by either the Thirteenth Amendment or the absence of a military emergency."
Thank you. This is all I needed. I supreme court ruling. Any other argument that anyone else brought up was wrong.

Being conscripted into the military seems kind of like involuntary servitude to me...
Well, since the military is all volunteer now and there's no possibility of a draft, the point is moot.

Well, since the military is all volunteer now and there's no possibility of a draft, the point is moot.
...wow. If I insult Eutrusca's intelligence, will the mods harp on me for flaming? Doesn't this guy realize that there is a possibility of a draft since we're running short on troops world-wide? I don't think it will happen any time soon, but it can. Hell, the presedential candidates were asked about it in the second debate.


By the way, volunteers don't get paid.

...wow. If I insult Eutrusca's intelligence, will the mods harp on me for flaming? Doesn't this guy realize that there is a possibility of a draft since we're running short on troops world-wide? I don't think it will happen any time soon, but it can. Hell, the presedential candidates were asked about it in the second debate.


By the way, volunteers don't get paid.
Funny, for someone so eager to insult someone elses intelligence, your lack of intelligence is hilarious. I am a memebr of the all volunteer Army, I get paid, and you know nothing about the military. There is no more a shortage of individuals than there was before the war. Plus, no draft keeps cowards like you out.

...wow. If I insult Eutrusca's intelligence, will the mods harp on me for flaming? Doesn't this guy realize that there is a possibility of a draft since we're running short on troops world-wide? I don't think it will happen any time soon, but it can. Hell, the presedential candidates were asked about it in the second debate.


By the way, volunteers don't get paid.

Well when you volunteer to serve in the military, you do get paid. No draft is going to happen, we have plenty of troops. Can you get it through that head of yours quiz-kid. The draft is a dead issue, one of Kerrys sorry attempts at spreading fear.

There's a limit to how many people can join the military. The gov't is always turning people away. If troops were a problem, they'd just increase the limit.

Doesn't the draft preexist that amendment, though?

It doesn't matter if the draft pre-existed an amendment, the amendment overrules the draft. Period.

Funny, for someone so eager to insult someone elses intelligence, your lack of intelligence is hilarious. I am a memebr of the all volunteer Army, I get paid, and you know nothing about the military. There is no more a shortage of individuals than there was before the war. Plus, no draft keeps cowards like you out.
You should watch your fucking mouth. No one volunteers to be in the army any more than you volunteer to work at any other job. I'm just playing the semantics game. You're "volunteering" to go risk your life and get paid. Volunteering just makes it sound nice when it's really just a career choice.

By the way, I do know a lot about the military. My family has a background in the military and I'm considering doing AFROTC, but if I have to put up with assholes like you every day in the military, then I think I'd be better off just volunteering to do some other career.

Wow. That's one of the least intelligent posts I've ever seen.

1) You actually think that I don't know what the original intention of the 13th Amendment was...

2) You think that original intentions are the only intentions that can be applied the constitutional amendments...


The fact of the matter is that the 13th amendment OUTLAWS involuntary servitude...this case has never been argued in court, which is why the draft has continued...

Yes it has, Butler v. State, a Florida precedent affirming the consitutionality of a county statute requirung adult males to work on road crews for a certain number of day per year.

in the 1930's the courts "found" that the 2nd amendment pertains to the governments ability to make a standing military(unfortunately)

and the 2nd predates the 13th

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"

sorry kids, but they can draft you if they want to

First off...

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7268001&postcount=11

I think you guys should read through before you start trying to re-refute.


Second off, the second amendment doesn't counteract the 13th. If the 2nd came before the 13th (and it did) then the 13th would be more applicable. By your logic, alcohol is banned, because the 18th came before the 21st.


Besides that, I don't really see how the 2nd amendment grants the government the right to draft anyone.

First off...

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7268001&postcount=11

I think you guys should read through before you start trying to re-refute.


Second off, the second amendment doesn't counteract the 13th. If the 2nd came before the 13th (and it did) then the 13th would be more applicable. By your logic, alcohol is banned, because the 18th came before the 21st.


Besides that, I don't really see how the 2nd amendment grants the government the right to draft anyone.
It doesn't, but neither does the 13th prohibit the draft. The 13th Amendment is very specific about "involuntary servitude," which is slavery and thus unpaid labor. The draft has been repeatedly shown to be necessary in times of national crisis and people drafted into the military are paid for their service.

Don't get me wrong ... I am totally against the draft, but there may be times ( a la World War II ) when a draft would once again become necessary. But rest assured that almost all politicians and almost everyone in the military would try every other means of building military strength before resorting to another draft, including recalling all us old farts to active duty!

Involuntary Servitude


Involuntary - Acting or done without or against one's will

Servitude - A state of subjection to an owner or master; Lack of personal freedom, as to act as one chooses.



It doesn't matter if you are paid or not.

The draft should only be allowed to be used when not in pre-emptive war. That's gonna be decided on soon, if they decide to implement it I think.

Well when you volunteer to serve in the military, you do get paid. No draft is going to happen, we have plenty of troops. Can you get it through that head of yours quiz-kid. The draft is a dead issue, one of Kerrys sorry attempts at spreading fear.
you enlist and sign a contract to do a job not volunteer
if you volunteered you could leave when ever you want

Here's the straight dope answer to the question:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_140b.html

And here's the Word IQ answer, about three quarters down the page, which deems the whole war illegal under the Geneva Convention, by which war must be declared before hostilities commence.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Vietnam_War

Here's the straight dope answer to the question:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_140b.html

And here's the Word IQ answer, about three quarters down the page, which deems the whole war illegal under the Geneva Convention, by which war must be declared before hostilities commence.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Vietnam_War

Yeah well, Bush has made it clear he cares nothing for any international agreements whatsoever...

And to the militant buffoon who made a comment about cowards in the draft... The draftees were the most productive in Vietnam, they made sure everything was done right, because they didnt want to be there in the first place, so they sure as HELL werent gonna die for a cause they didnt believe in if they could help it.

you enlist and sign a contract to do a job not volunteer
if you volunteered you could leave when ever you want


You may want to look up the actual definition of a word prior to making one up on your own, it looks more intelligent that way. But here, let me help you on this one ...


Definitions from Merriam-Webster Online dictionary: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

Main Entry: 1vol·un·teer
Pronunciation: "vä-l&n-'tir
Function: noun
Etymology: obsolete French voluntaire (now volontaire), from voluntaire, adjective, voluntary, from Latin voluntarius
1 : a person who voluntarily undertakes or expresses a willingness to undertake a service: as a : one who enters into military service voluntarily b (1) : one who renders a service or takes part in a transaction while having no legal concern or interest (2) : one who receives a conveyance or transfer of property without giving valuable consideration
2 : a volunteer plant
3 capitalized [Volunteers of America] : a member of a quasi-military religious and philanthropic organization founded in 1896 by Commander and Mrs. Ballington Booth

Main Entry: 2volunteer
Function: adjective
1 : being, consisting of, or engaged in by volunteers <a volunteer army> <volunteer activities to help the mentally handicapped>
2 : growing spontaneously without direct human control or supervision especially from seeds lost from a previous crop <volunteer corn plants>

Main Entry: 3volunteer
Function: verb
intransitive senses : to offer oneself as a volunteer
transitive senses : to offer or bestow voluntarily <volunteer one's services>

Yeah well, Bush has made it clear he cares nothing for any international agreements whatsoever...

And to the militant buffoon who made a comment about cowards in the draft... The draftees were the most productive in Vietnam, they made sure everything was done right, because they didnt want to be there in the first place, so they sure as HELL werent gonna die for a cause they didnt believe in if they could help it.

Well, I'm so glad you set me straight on that. I was so deluded by my 24 months in-country, commanding both volunteers and draftees, that I had drawn the ( obviously incorrect ) conclusion that volunteers generally made much better soldiers than did those who would rather be anywhere else. Shame on me!

Well, I'm so glad you set me straight on that. I was so deluded by my 24 months in-country, commanding both volunteers and draftees, that I had drawn the ( obviously incorrect ) conclusion that volunteers generally made much better soldiers than did those who would rather be anywhere else. Shame on me!

I agree, I would much rather be in a fire-fight with someone who wanted to be there then someone who didn't. I know I can trust the person(s) next to me to do what is best for all involved instead of what is best for themselves. I can't trust someone who doesn't want to be there in the first place to do the same.

It comes down to this. The person that doesn't want to be there is much less likely to give 100% where as the person who is there voluntarily is more likely to give 100%.

I think after my dad's firebase was slaughtered to a man, he almost went to Canada. He was on R&R in California when it happened, and nearly decided not to go back. I'm sure he didn't approve of the draft, or at any rate, think much of it then.

2) You think that original intentions are the only intentions that can be applied the constitutional amendments...
That's the way it should be.

Being conscripted into the military seems kind of like involuntary servitude to me...

well, since the US government practiced conscription during the Civil War, both World Wars and from 1945 - 1973, it would seem to me that at some point the Supreme Court would have said something if they agreed with you

the draft has to do with English Common Law, which the US constitution and laws are based on which basically says that in time of invasion or national emergency, every fit man has a duty to serve his community. The Draft is an extension of that.

But since there isn't one, and unlikely to be one (mass conscript armies just aren't that useful right now) I wouldn't worry to much about it

well, since the US government practiced conscription during the Civil War, both World Wars and from 1945 - 1973, it would seem to me that at some point the Supreme Court would have said something if they agreed with you

the draft has to do with English Common Law, which the US constitution and laws are based on which basically says that in time of invasion or national emergency, every fit man has a duty to serve his community. The Draft is an extension of that.

But since there isn't one, and unlikely to be one (mass conscript armies just aren't that useful right now) I wouldn't worry to much about it
The Supreme Court can't say anything about anything unless they hear a case. If no one brings a case to them they don't really have the opportunity...but as has been already pointed out, the Supreme Court did hear a case and said the draft was A-Oh-Kay, and I stopped talking about the 13th amendment.

And I'm not worried...just interested in good, healthy, political debate.

That's the way it should be.
By that logic, Asians are still legitimate possibilities for slave labor. The 13th Amendment's original intent was to stop the use of African-American slave labor.