NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm sure most of you have seen those commerials from the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth outlining the lies that Kerry is telling the American public.

Kerry's current lie is that George Bush caused the flu vaccine shortage.

I want to ask why anyone would support this person when he's making up things to get elected.

I'm sure you'll respond by stating, because you want Bush out, but you could just vote for Nadar to achieve the same goal. Why support an obviously crooked man?

I'm sure most of you have seen those commerials from the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth outlining the lies that Kerry is telling the American public.

Kerry's current lie is that George Bush caused the flu vaccine shortage.

I want to ask why anyone would support this person when he's making up things to get elected.

I'm sure you'll respond by stating, because you want Bush out, but you could just vote for Nadar to achieve the same goal. Why support an obviously crooked man?
*rolling my eyes*
im not worried about kerrys "lies" they are meaningless

i will NOT vote for a man who LIED to get us into a useless war that has killed more than 1000 soldiers and uncounted iraqi civilians.

thats my bottom line. if nader was in kerrys position id vote for him, if badnarik was in kerrys position id vote for him. kerry is in kerrys position so he gets my vote. he cant possibly do a worse job than bush has done so far.

I want to ask why anyone would support this person when he's making up things to get elected.

ROFLMAO. I almost choked on my gum when I read that. Bush has made up more things and more important things to get elected than Kerry has.

I'm sure most of you have seen those commerials from the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth outlining the lies that Kerry is telling the American public.
Or maybe the Swift Boat Veterans are lying. I understand they ate babies or something? ;)
Ah well, on the bright side I don't have to figure out who's lying, considering I'm not a US citizen. Waiting eagerly for the next election here, though, because Canadian politics is exciting ever since there's been a minority government.

I'm not gonna get into that partisan bullshit about who lies more. They are politicians, liars by nature. What's important is what they will do in office.

However, the title of this thread, "Veterans hate Kerry" is hardly representative of the truth, or even helpful.

I could make a thread called "Gays hate Bush" or "Unionists hate Bush" or "Rednecks hate Kerry"...get the idea? The military is very conservative, that's just the nature of it.

And are you still on the Swifties? Here's something you either don't know or chose to ignore: none of them are from his boat. You know why? Because every man who was on his boat says he saved their lives, and calls him a hero.

Here's another one, I'm sure you've heard of John McCain, speaker at the RNC, campaigner for Bush, right? He is friends with Kerry, and called on Bush to condemn the Swiftie ads. McCain served in Vietnam too, so you know.

So much for "veterans hate Kerry."

Yes, Bush has lied over and over again - yet many republicans can see his lies and will not be voting for George Bush, but you Democrats will vote for another liar just because you hate Bush more. How much do you need to see before you understand that bipartisanship is not the way to go?

Yes, Bush has lied over and over again - yet many republicans can see his lies and will not be voting for George Bush, but you Democrats will vote for another liar just because you hate Bush more. How much do you need to see before you understand that bipartisanship is not the way to go?

Holy shit, you admit that Bush has lied?!

Yet you wil still vote for Bush, right?

I like your tactic, tell us to vote for Nader, just so Bush sneaks in again. heh. :p

I'm voting None Of The Above, like I always do.

Wow, he lied about Flu Vaccines. Hmmm lets see what Bush lied about

War on Iraq (BIG ONE)

The success of No Child Left Behind (which is a friggin joke)

Denial of him reducing the important of Osama (third debate)

The Economy

Credits EVERY thing to his tax cuts.

Sooo Kerry lies about one thing while Bush lies about a whole bunch of thing. I would rather vote for the man who tells the least lies. As far as lying goes. Welcome to D.C. buddy!

Yes, Bush has lied over and over again - yet many republicans can see his lies and will not be voting for George Bush, but you Democrats will vote for another liar just because you hate Bush more. How much do you need to see before you understand that bipartisanship is not the way to go?

oh my god....freepers at NS....and not a particulary good freeper at that!!

LOL talk about clutching at straws!! LOLOL

thanks for the laugh moron!

I want to ask why anyone would support this person when he's making up things to get elected.

That's because Kerry's not making these things up... and the SBVT were proven to be liars, themselves, as is President Bush.

It's one difficulty to talk sense to a Democrat and another to post amongst the sheep which only listen to what the tv is telling them.

It's one difficulty to talk sense to a Democrat and another to post amongst the sheep which only listen to what the tv is telling them.

You listen to the same TV, its just tuned to Foxnews. :rolleyes:

You listen to the same TV, its just tuned to Foxnews. :rolleyes:

OWNED!!!! :p

Or he might just listen to talk radio...?

Your encouraged by the political spin that controls Americans by forcing them into a competition. Republican, Democrat, it makes no difference - America has been the same country for decades no matter which party wins. You're just being herded like sheep because you refuse to take notice.

Your encouraged by the political spin that controls Americans by forcing them into a competition. Republican, Democrat, it makes no difference - America has been the same country for decades no matter which party wins. You're just being herded like sheep because you refuse to take notice.


Well I don't exactly see you doing anything about it. Are you running for ANY political office anywhere? Probably not, you're just sitting here complaning on a internet forum about one lie. Whoopie-freakin-doo.

Your encouraged by the political spin that controls Americans by forcing them into a competition. Republican, Democrat, it makes no difference - America has been the same country for decades no matter which party wins. You're just being herded like sheep because you refuse to take notice.

good point...and that spin being rightwing media bias.

Your encouraged by the political spin that controls Americans by forcing them into a competition. Republican, Democrat, it makes no difference - America has been the same country for decades no matter which party wins. You're just being herded like sheep because you refuse to take notice.

I think the Repubs and Dems are not as similar as you say they are...

OWNED!!!! :p

Or he might just listen to talk radio...?

Same crap, diffrent media.

Five bucks says if you tune into Bill O' Rilley and Rush Limbaugh at the same time, they'll sound exactly alike.

I had the chance to sit down and talk with a Vietnam veteran the other day. My father is friends with a Canadian who volunteered to go to Nam as a military police officer.
He said that he didn't like what John Kerry did, because he and many other veterans felt like it cheapened what many people died for. I think thats how a lot of Vets feel, and I also think it's understandable, since many believed in the cause they were fighting for.

Yes, you have a guy sit before congress and tell them all of your friends were baby killers it tends to upset some of them.

Yes, you have a guy sit before congress and tell them all of your friends were baby killers it tends to upset some of them.

Hey, there were plenty of atrocities that went on in Vietnam, peaceful villages massacred...war is a big thing, there's the good and the bad soldiers.

He never said every soldier was a babykiller.

I think the Repubs and Dems are not as similar as you say they are...

Then how is America better off today than it was just 20 years ago? Both parties are part of the same cycle. We were losing jobs during Clinton we are losing jobs during Bush. The deficit has always been at such a high rate that there is no turning back. The National Debt can never be paid. Both parties are to blame for America's problems.

Yes, you have a guy sit before congress and tell them all of your friends were baby killers it tends to upset some of them.

And you accuess US of being Sheeps? Read the actual transcript sometimes.

It's one difficulty to talk sense to a Democrat and another to post amongst the sheep which only listen to what the tv is telling them.

Funny that how I form my opinion open by reading through both sides political platform before even considering who they are as people to decide my vote.

It's always the extremist who they we are unable to form our own opinions. :rolleyes:

Then how is America better off today than it was just 20 years ago? Both parties are part of the same cycle. We were losing jobs during Clinton we are losing jobs during Bush. The deficit has always been at such a high rate that there is no turning back. The National Debt can never be paid. Both parties are to blame for America's problems.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Bush is the first president to lose jobs since the Great Depression?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we have a SURPLUS during the Clinton years, and now we have a deficit?

Yes, Bush has lied over and over again - yet many republicans can see his lies and will not be voting for George Bush, but you Democrats will vote for another liar just because you hate Bush more. How much do you need to see before you understand that bipartisanship is not the way to go?


Partisanship isnt at issue. Morality is.

Somone who knows what horrible things bush and his junta are responsible for cannot in good conscience vote for him or else they become complicit.

What is most important is punishing a lying, murdering thief. What is most important is ensuring that our president is not a lying, murdering thief.

Hey, there were plenty of atrocities that went on in Vietnam, peaceful villages massacred...war is a big thing, there's the good and the bad soldiers.

He never said every soldier was a babykiller.

I think, maybe you should watch that Kerry Documentary.

Kerry is the man who invented those supposed atrocities, especially the term "baby-killers".

I'm sure you've heard of the history; Vietnam Veterans were spat on as they arrived home on those planes, and it was because of John Kerry's testimony that it happened.

Vietnam Veterans do not support Kerry because of the harm he has caused them all.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Bush is the first president to lose jobs since the Great Depression?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we have a SURPLUS during the Clinton years, and now we have a deficit?

Ok I'll correct you. America has been losing jobs for years. And good ol Bill Clinton issued the Free Trade Agreement causing American Companies to close in America and move down to Mexico for the cheap labor. It cost millions of jobs.

Ok I'll correct you. America has been losing jobs for years. And good ol Bill Clinton issued the Free Trade Agreement causing American Companies to close in America and move down to Mexico for the cheap labor. It cost millions of jobs.

Once again, wrong. You need to get your facts straight before you post against Democrats on this board that check their facts when stepping onto the forums.

Bush, as reported by numerous bipartisan sources, is the first President since the Great Depression to lose jobs in the country. Period.

I think, maybe you should watch that Kerry Documentary.

Kerry is the man who invented those supposed atrocities, especially the term "baby-killers".

I'm sure you've heard of the history; Vietnam Veterans were spat on as they arrived home on those planes, and it was because of John Kerry's testimony that it happened.

Vietnam Veterans do not support Kerry because of the harm he has caused them all.


Jeez you might as well say it was John Kerry fault that Jesus was nailed to the cross. You can't blame everything that happened to the Veterans on one man! Also the documentry is nothing more than a smear campagin. I doubt it'll even include the whole testimony.

And are you still on the Swifties? Here's something you either don't know or chose to ignore: none of them are from his boat. You know why? Because every man who was on his boat says he saved their lives, and calls him a hero.


I don't know why anybody is still on the Swifties. Hasn't it been proven that the leader of the Swifties was paid by Nixon to find dirt on Kerry? That's how far back he's been trying to discredit Kerry.
If you were a veteran, who would you rather vote for--someone who went to Vietnam or someone who used his father's influence to get a cushy ANG assignment?

I don't know why anybody is still on the Swifties. Hasn't it been proven that the leader of the Swifties was paid by Nixon to find dirt on Kerry? That's how far back he's been trying to discredit Kerry.
If you were a veteran, who would you rather vote for--someone who went to Vietnam or someone who used his father's influence to get a cushy ANG assignment?

Nixon?! Nixon?! What an idiot!

Jeez you might as well say it was John Kerry fault that Jesus was nailed to the cross. You can't blame everything that happened to the Veterans on one man! Also the documentry is nothing more than a smear campagin. I doubt it'll even include the whole testimony.
Kerry's testimony was in 1971. Are we to believe that nobody was opposed to the war, or called a Vietnam vet a baby-killer, or spat on a soldier, before 1971? The war was already very unpopular by then. Kerry's testimony merely confirmed the suspicions of many people. And he did not say that *all* of the soldiers committed atrocities.

Kerry's testimony was in 1971. Are we to believe that nobody was opposed to the war, or called a Vietnam vet a baby-killer, or spat on a soldier, before 1971? The war was already very unpopular by then. Kerry's testimony merely confirmed the suspicions of many people. And he did not say that *all* of the soldiers committed atrocities.

Exactly.

Anyone notice how he never responds to what I'm saying? Or can make assertions that I'm lying?

Anyone notice how he never responds to what I'm saying? Or can make assertions that I'm lying?

Hes ignoring me too. I feel so unloved! lol.

Once again, wrong. You need to get your facts straight before you post against Democrats on this board that check their facts when stepping onto the forums.

Bush, as reported by numerous bipartisan sources, is the first President since the Great Depression to lose jobs in the country. Period.

I'm really trying my best to refuse the belief you are that dumb, and your comment is just to blame on your age.

Luckily there isn't a hoard of morons like you speaking all at once.

Bush is not the first president to lose jobs since the great depression.

America has been losing jobs for decades, but maybe you don't know anything about the Reagan Era - every term more jobs are lost - unemployment rises with each new president.

The largest amount of jobs lost was when the Free Trade Agreement was started.

Labor in Mexico is unbelieveably cheap, and Clinton allowed American companies to move down there and "freely" distribute across the border.

Nixon?! Nixon?! What an idiot!
I'm not sure what you meant by that, although Nixon did turn out to be an idiot...
http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041001/REVIEWS/409300303/1023
Check the end of the second paragraph. I haven't seen the movie, but apparently the connection between Nixon and O'Neill is one of its major themes.

Labor in Mexico is unbelieveably cheap, and Clinton allowed American companies to move down there and "freely" distribute across the border.
So that's why tech was booming before Bush got in, and then all the tech jobs suddenly wound up in India?

So that's why tech was booming before Bush got in, and then all the tech jobs suddenly wound up in India?

Technicians are not the majority of this country, I'm refering to the larger population of manual labor. That's were the average American works. For every company there is 5 techs to 100 laborers. My brother is a technician, and like most of these guys he relocates to different jobs whenever there is a downsizing. It's technicians who don't worry about jobs, because there are always jobs available to them. Try sticking to a level where it affects most of America. Most of America was affected by the Free Trade Agreement.

*rolling my eyes*
im not worried about kerrys "lies" they are meaningless

i will NOT vote for a man who LIED to get us into a useless war that has killed more than 1000 soldiers and uncounted iraqi civilians.

thats my bottom line. if nader was in kerrys position id vote for him, if badnarik was in kerrys position id vote for him. kerry is in kerrys position so he gets my vote. he cant possibly do a worse job than bush has done so far.


What lies did Bush use to get us into war?

And does it really matter anymore? We're at war, engaged in combat. Why do people still want to debate whether we should have gone or not?

I'm really trying my best to refuse the belief you are that dumb, and your comment is just to blame on your age.

Luckily there isn't a hoard of morons like you speaking all at once.

Wow... you're flaming, good comeback.

I think, maybe you should watch that Kerry Documentary.

Kerry is the man who invented those supposed atrocities, especially the term "baby-killers".

I'm sure you've heard of the history; Vietnam Veterans were spat on as they arrived home on those planes, and it was because of John Kerry's testimony that it happened.

Vietnam Veterans do not support Kerry because of the harm he has caused them all.
maybe you should google MY LAI MASSACRE.
its not made up.
vietnam vets were spat on out of a misguided notion that THEY were responsible for the bad things that happened in vietnam. it had nothing to do with john kerry and everything to do with high emotions revolving around a war we had no business being in.

john kerry had the guts to tell the TRUTH. bad things happened. we wanted to pretend that we were the good guys. but we just werent.

he never said it was ALL soldiers. he said he had spoken to men who had done those things. those ugly things WERE done. we would like to forget that they happend or pretend that they never did happen but its the truth.

i respect a man who is willing to tell the truth.

What lies did Bush use to get us into war?

And does it really matter anymore? We're at war, engaged in combat. Why do people still want to debate whether we should have gone or not?

Hussein had atomic weapons.
Hussien had WMDs
Hussein was building atomic weapons.
Hussein was building WMDs
Hussein was plotting and had programs in place to build atomic weapons.
Hussein was plotting and had programs in place to build WMDs
Hussein was a threat to the US
Hussein was a threat to his neighboring countries

Also, when somone does something that is WRONG, it is important they they are held accountable, even if that prior wrong cannot be immediately righted.

But hey, thats just morality talking.

maybe you should google MY LAI MASSACRE.
its not made up.
vietnam vets were spat on out of a misguided notion that THEY were responsible for the bad things that happened in vietnam. it had nothing to do with john kerry and everything to do with high emotions revolving around a war we had no business being in.

john kerry had the guts to tell the TRUTH. bad things happened. we wanted to pretend that we were the good guys. but we just werent.

he never said it was ALL soldiers. he said he had spoken to men who had done those things. those ugly things WERE done. we would like to forget that they happend or pretend that they never did happen but its the truth.

i respect a man who is willing to tell the truth.


My Lai was one instance of atrocities, but it should also be noted that it was also stopped by US forces as well.

Kerry has produced a total of about 5 men who back his stories up. Many thousands more have denied them.

Kerry used his testimony to the try and run for Congress in Mass, where he was defeated when his testimony backfired in public opinion. Respect a man willing to tell the truth? How bout a man willing to manipulate the facts in an attempt to gain a political edge, which pretty much sums up the Kerry campaign in a nutshell?

I cannot trust a man who did not oppose the vietnam war.

It was something so palpably wrong that it is a litmus test for a person's character.

As is bush's war on iraq.

maybe you should google MY LAI MASSACRE.
its not made up.
vietnam vets were spat on out of a misguided notion that THEY were responsible for the bad things that happened in vietnam. it had nothing to do with john kerry and everything to do with high emotions revolving around a war we had no business being in.

john kerry had the guts to tell the TRUTH. bad things happened. we wanted to pretend that we were the good guys. but we just werent.

he never said it was ALL soldiers. he said he had spoken to men who had done those things. those ugly things WERE done. we would like to forget that they happend or pretend that they never did happen but its the truth.

i respect a man who is willing to tell the truth.

Holy shit, what an idiot! John Kerry re-adjusted his comments back in his run for Senate concerning the nonsense he told to Congress. He said he felt pressured by angry liberal activists to speak against the war.

What lies did Bush use to get us into war?

And does it really matter anymore? We're at war, engaged in combat. Why do people still want to debate whether we should have gone or not?

*staring at the screen in disbelief*

we arent talking about something that happend 50 years ago, we're talking about a man who is president RIGHT NOW. of course it matters. we have a chance to get rid of this guy before he continues us into yet another useless war.

not that it matters in terms of what to do NEXT. we can't erase what he has done. all we can do is "punish" him for it by getting him the hell out of office

do you know what a lie IS?

its a lie when you tell an outright untruth...... the yellowcake/africa story that he told in his state of the union address that he KNEW WASNT TRUE WHEN HE SAID IT.

its a lie when you have someone else lie for you... colin powell at the UN

its a lie when you have left people with a false impression and you dont correct it..... that iraq was responsible for 9/11...when we invaded iraq 60% of the american public believed that lie.

all politician lie. all of them. most of its is "spin". lies that in politics arent lies like "kerry has voted to raise taxes 600 times" occasionally they will lie outright. "i did not have sexual relations with that woman". since they all lie you have to take it with a grain of salt and get used to looking around the edges of what they say to find the "truth".

but when a man come INTO office hoping to find a way to invade iraq, then uses a national tragedy to manufacture hysteria so that everyone was willing to go to war with a country that has never done anything to us, while ABANDONING the search for the real killer---osama bin laden, its just TOO MUCH. i can not possibly consider voting for a man like that.

J0eG0d, I strongly suggest that you moderate your style of posting -- there is no call for flaming players for the crime of disagreeing with you.

If someone doesn't say something these people might be idiots for the rest of their lives.

*staring at the screen in disbelief*

we arent talking about something that happend 50 years ago, we're talking about a man who is president RIGHT NOW. of course it matters. we have a chance to get rid of this guy before he continues us into yet another useless war.

not that it matters in terms of what to do NEXT. we can't erase what he has done. all we can do is "punish" him for it by getting him the hell out of office

do you know what a lie IS?

its a lie when you tell an outright untruth...... the yellowcake/africa story that he told in his state of the union address that he KNEW WASNT TRUE WHEN HE SAID IT.

its a lie when you have someone else lie for you... colin powell at the UN

its a lie when you have left people with a false impression and you dont correct it..... that iraq was responsible for 9/11...when we invaded iraq 60% of the american public believed that lie.

all politician lie. all of them. most of its is "spin". lies that in politics arent lies like "kerry has voted to raise taxes 600 times" occasionally they will lie outright. "i did not have sexual relations with that woman". since they all lie you have to take it with a grain of salt and get used to looking around the edges of what they say to find the "truth".

but when a man come INTO office hoping to find a way to invade iraq, then uses a national tragedy to manufacture hysteria so that everyone was willing to go to war with a country that has never done anything to us, while ABANDONING the search for the real killer---osama bin laden, its just TOO MUCH. i can not possibly consider voting for a man like that.


A lie is when you, while knowing the truth, intentionally state something that is an un-truth.

The Yellowcake/africa Story was based on British intelligence and has since been backed up. Try to read or watch the news EVERY day not just glean selected information from it. So, how is that a lie, when all the information he has states that it is a fact and all he does is report that information?

What did Colin Powell lie about at the UN? The WMD data from France, Russia, Germany, Jordan, and Egypt?

Bush never stated there was a link between Saddam and 9-11. The stated link was between Al-Quaeda and Iraq, something which the 9-11 report details as well. How is Bush lieing in this case? How does 60% of the American people beleiving Iraq was involved in 9-11 add up to a Bush lie?

You realize that Clark's testimony was bullshit right? The administration right now has a plan to invade China, Egypt, Europe, and so on. The existence of such a plan does not imply the intention of implementing it anytime soon; it is there so if such a need arises advisors aren't scrambling trying to come up with SOMETHING. Thats what Clark presented as evidence the administration planned to invade Iraq. Haven't you wondered or hasn't it sunk in as to thats why he shut up? That he was discredited as a kook and someone who was simply anti-Bush?

Oh, and by the way, we're still hunting for Osama. Did you just emerge from a bubble or something?

If someone doesn't say something these people might be idiots for the rest of their lives.
Presenting links to reliable sources and presenting locigal arguments based on that information does not require personally insulting other NationStates players. In addition, personally insulting other NationStates players is a violation of the rules. You will, therefore, refrain from insulting other NationStates players.

I trust that this is clear.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

A lie is when you, while knowing the truth, intentionally state something that is an un-truth.

The Yellowcake/africa Story was based on British intelligence and has since been backed up. Try to read or watch the news EVERY day not just glean selected information from it. So, how is that a lie, when all the information he has states that it is a fact and all he does is report that information?

What did Colin Powell lie about at the UN? The WMD data from France, Russia, Germany, Jordan, and Egypt?

Bush never stated there was a link between Saddam and 9-11. The stated link was between Al-Quaeda and Iraq, something which the 9-11 report details as well. How is Bush lieing in this case? How does 60% of the American people beleiving Iraq was involved in 9-11 add up to a Bush lie?

You realize that Clark's testimony was bullshit right? The administration right now has a plan to invade China, Egypt, Europe, and so on. The existence of such a plan does not imply the intention of implementing it anytime soon; it is there so if such a need arises advisors aren't scrambling trying to come up with SOMETHING. Thats what Clark presented as evidence the administration planned to invade Iraq. Haven't you wondered or hasn't it sunk in as to thats why he shut up? That he was discredited as a kook and someone who was simply anti-Bush?

Oh, and by the way, we're still hunting for Osama. Did you just emerge from a bubble or something?

you really don't know what a lie is

it is a lie when you lie, when someone else lies for you and when you say stuff that causes other people to believe something that isnt true and you dont correct it.

those are all forms of lying.

or are you going to tell me that you think that bill clinton DIDNT lie when he said he didnt have sexual relations with that woman? after all in HIS mind, oral sex ISNT SEX.

lying is lying.

yeah we're still hunting for bin laden and OJ is still looking for the real killer.

you really don't know what a lie is

it is a lie when you lie, when someone else lies for you and when you say stuff that causes other people to believe something that isnt true and you dont correct it.

those are all forms of lying.

or are you going to tell me that you think that bill clinton DIDNT lie when he said he didnt have sexual relations with that woman? after all in HIS mind, oral sex ISNT SEX.

lying is lying.

yeah we're still hunting for bin laden and OJ is still looking for the real killer.



LOL

Ok, sorry, I didn't get that. So its a LIE thats a LIE! Man was I off. I thought a LIE was a moose. Thanks for the clarification.

... kerry is in kerrys position so he gets my vote. he cant possibly do a worse job than bush has done so far.

Care to place a wager on that? Say, $1,000.00? :D

Actually, I'd feel safe wagering $1000 that Kerry does better than Bush.

Anyway, I personally know--that is, am directly related to--three veterans who hate Bush, and like Kerry quite a bit. So the title of the thread is factually incorrect, as all veterans do not hate Kerry.

I cannot trust a man who did not oppose the vietnam war.

It was something so palpably wrong that it is a litmus test for a person's character.

As is bush's war on iraq.

I was in Vietnam for two years. By your standards, I cannot be trusted, and neither can some one million others. Is this truly what you meant to say?

Actually, I'd feel safe wagering $1000 that Kerry does better than Bush.

Anyway, I personally know--that is, am directly related to--three veterans who hate Bush, and like Kerry quite a bit. So the title of the thread is factually incorrect, as all veterans do not hate Kerry.

I'm sorry they lack discernment and vision. Pity.

LOL

Ok, sorry, I didn't get that. So its a LIE thats a LIE! Man was I off. I thought a LIE was a moose. Thanks for the clarification.
oh so now you understand that when he left the american public with the impression that iraq was responsible for 9/11 and he didnt correct it that he was in fact lying about it

you understand that when he had colin powell lie to the un that he was in fact lying

well, it may not matter to YOU, but to ME thats enough to insure that i will never vote for him.

I'm sorry they lack discernment and vision. Pity.

Could you please stop with the "Everyone who disagrees with me is stupid" thing? It's REALLY getting old. This doesn't have to be personal. Stop making it personal.

oh so now you understand that when he left the american public with the impression that iraq was responsible for 9/11 and he didnt correct it that he was in fact lying about it

you understand that when he had colin powell lie to the un that he was in fact lying

well, it may not matter to YOU, but to ME thats enough to insure that i will never vote for him.

Are you truly unable to differentiate between a lie and making a decision based on the best information available at the time? How many times is it going to be necessary to point out that everyone, Bush, Congress, Republicans, Democrats ( including Kerry ), the UN ... everyone ... believed at the time that Saddam Hussein either possessed weapons of mass destruction and/or the means of quickly creating them?

Surely someone who is able to defend Kerry's "nuanced" positions and apparent waffles as "not lies" can comprehend this?

oh so now you understand that when he left the american public with the impression that iraq was responsible for 9/11 and he didnt correct it that he was in fact lying about it

you understand that when he had colin powell lie to the un that he was in fact lying

well, it may not matter to YOU, but to ME thats enough to insure that i will never vote for him.


When did Bush say Iraq had anything to do with 9-11?

What did Powell lie about before the UN?

Could you please stop with the "Everyone who disagrees with me is stupid" thing? It's REALLY getting old. This doesn't have to be personal. Stop making it personal.

Yes it is "personal." Kerry made it personal when he accused me of committing atrocities "on a daily basis," and of "ravaging the countryside in a manner akin to Gengis Khan."

By what distorted sense of "fairness" can you sit on your hands when Vietnam veterans are pilloried once again, yet accuse me of "getting personal" when I attempt to defend against these surrilous attacks?

Anyone who believes that Kerry accused ALL Vietnam Vets of attrocities is guilty of taking the swifties propaganda as gospel and is as bad as anyone who takes anything micheal moore says as gospel. Plus not all vets hate Kerry. There are vets on this very board who like Kerry. Kerry had the GUTS to tell the truth about how he felt about the war in Vietnam and even about things he himself had done which he was not proud of. He fights for middle-class and below. he fights for the environment. He fights for better healthcare and education. He is a much better candidate for President than G Bush ever was.

Its too bad Etrusca that you think the Vietnam war was a good thing. I feel sorry for you and will pray for your enlightenment.

Could you please stop with the "Everyone who disagrees with me is stupid" thing? It's REALLY getting old. This doesn't have to be personal. Stop making it personal.

Yes it is "personal." Kerry made it personal when he accused me of committing atrocities "on a daily basis," and of "ravaging the countryside in a manner reminiscent of Gengis Khan."

By what distorted sense of "fairness" can you sit on your hands when Vietnam veterans are pilloried once again, yet accuse me of "getting personal" when I attempt to defend against these surrilous attacks?

I'm sure most of you have seen those commerials from the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth outlining the lies that Kerry is telling the American public.

Kerry's current lie is that George Bush caused the flu vaccine shortage.

I want to ask why anyone would support this person when he's making up things to get elected.

I'm sure you'll respond by stating, because you want Bush out, but you could just vote for Nadar to achieve the same goal. Why support an obviously crooked man?

The speed with which you would have to cause Kerry's character to plummet in order to have it anywhere below Bush's by election day would flatten you out of existence. There is nothing you can say that is half way believable that can make any of Kerry's politicing sound more petty than Bush's efforts to lie about, and then politicize, their respective choices of cheese topping on a meat sandwich (http://www.pandagon.net/mtarchives/003205.html). Blaming Bush's out-scourcing encouraging policies for the vacine production being outscourced and then turning to Canadian outscourcing to provide us with drugs after he complained that Canadian medicine could be third world class pales by comparison. So pale in fact, as to resemble the pristine gowns of the angels. I'm fairly certain that the only pieces of honesty to come from Bush are his occaisional gaffes and the near certainty that Stephen Hawking was inspired to his belief in the existence of an infinitly dense pit of near absolute darkness that emits mangled information by watching Bush speak.

As far as the title of the thread goes.
Veterans for Kerry (http://www.veteransunitedforkerry.com/vote/index.php)

Anyone who believes that Kerry accused ALL Vietnam Vets of attrocities is guilty of taking the swifties propaganda and is as bad as anyone who takes anything micheal moore says as gospel. Plus not all vets hate Kerry. There are vets on this very board who like Kerry. Kerry had the GUTS to tell the truth about how he felt and even about things he himself had done which he was not proud of. He fights for middle-class and below. he fights for the environment. He fights for better healthcare and education.

Its too bad Etrusca that you think the Vietnam war was a good thing. I feel sorry for you and will pray for your enlightenment.


Wow you're a little arrogant ass aren't you?

You realize that the things Kerry says he did, most of those on his boat deny ever taking part in?

And please, don't make Kerry sound like He-Man, fighting for all sorts of crap. The man has never supported the middle class or anything else; John Kerry fights for John Kerry.

I don't know why anybody is still on the Swifties. Hasn't it been proven that the leader of the Swifties was paid by Nixon to find dirt on Kerry? That's how far back he's been trying to discredit Kerry.
If you were a veteran, who would you rather vote for--someone who went to Vietnam or someone who used his father's influence to get a cushy ANG assignment?
This comparison is one in the same.
Let me enlighten you.
LTJG John Kerry was a USNR, that is United States Navy RESERVE officer. Not a single rats ass above The President being a Guardsmen. The only difference is, one was called to duty, went for 5 months of a 12 month tour and came back a QUITTER, and a COMPLAINER with an unheard of 3 PHs!
The other learned skills to fly fighter aircraft, which would protect the nation in a time of need!

I am a veteran, and a member of the VFW, and I can't for the life of me figure out WHY only IDIOTS beleive in kerrys record!

Could you please enlighten me?

5 months, 3 PH's, shipped back early, was only down for 36 hours total for all 3 wounds. Then threw his medals away, then claimed they meant the world to him, then called all of his brethern baby killers, and now wants to be THE PRESIDENT. No, HELL's NO!

Did I mention he didn't join the VFW until this year? And paid for a life membership at that! That's also why he had a big shitload of support from the big V political buttkissers, they thought he was going to give more. What have you heard from them lately? Notta! He stabbed them in the back, luckily early enough for them to have seen it!

Anyone who believes that Kerry accused ALL Vietnam Vets of attrocities is guilty of taking the swifties propaganda and is as bad as anyone who takes anything micheal moore says as gospel. Plus not all vets hate Kerry. There are vets on this very board who like Kerry. Kerry had the GUTS to tell the truth about how he felt and even about things he himself had done which he was not proud of. He fights for middle-class and below. he fights for the environment. He fights for better healthcare and education.

Its too bad Etrusca that you think the Vietnam war was a good thing. I feel sorry for you and will pray for your enlightenment.


All vets? His testimony to Congress was on behalf of vets, not levied against them. Groups of veterans asked him to take their grievances to Washington for them. He was complaining about the situation that the Vets were placed in, not complaining about what Americans were like. Though what was done there was awful, Kerry was there too and understood the forces that were acting on these soldiers.

This comparison is one in the same.
Let me enlighten you.
LTJG John Kerry was a USNR, that is United States Navy RESERVE officer. Not a single rats ass above The President being a Guardsmen. The only difference is, one was called to duty, went for 5 months of a 12 month tour and came back a QUITTER, and a COMPLAINER with an unheard of 3 PHs!
The other learned skills to fly fighter aircraft, which would protect the nation in a time of need!

I am a veteran, and a member of the VFW, and I can't for the life of me figure out WHY only IDIOTS beleive in kerrys record!

Could you please enlighten me?

5 months, 3 PH's, shipped back early, was only down for 36 hours total for all 3 wounds. Then threw his medals away, then claimed they meant the world to him, then called all of his brethern baby killers, and now wants to be THE PRESIDENT. No, HELL's NO!

Did I mention he didn't join the VFW until this year? And paid for a life membership at that! That's also why he had a big shitload of support from the big V political buttkissers, they thought he was going to give more. What have you heard from them lately? Notta! He stabbed them in the back, luckily early enough for them to have seen it!


You ever come by Seattle, I'll buy you a beer, then we'll go hang out at the VFW. $0.75 beers on Tuesdays. Its ass beer but fuck it.

Wow you're a little arrogant ass aren't you?

You realize that the things Kerry says he did, most of those on his boat deny ever taking part in?

And please, don't make Kerry sound like He-Man, fighting for all sorts of crap. The man has never supported the middle class or anything else; John Kerry fights for John Kerry.

am I? hmmm how very super of you to think so. I'm glad you can hold an intellectual conversation without insulting someone. I bow to your greatness oh wise one.

Could you like me to anything those that served directly with him disagree with him on please?

Anyone who believes that Kerry accused ALL Vietnam Vets of attrocities is guilty of taking the swifties propaganda and is as bad as anyone who takes anything micheal moore says as gospel. Plus not all vets hate Kerry. There are vets on this very board who like Kerry. Kerry had the GUTS to tell the truth about how he felt and even about things he himself had done which he was not proud of. He fights for middle-class and below. he fights for the environment. He fights for better healthcare and education.

Its too bad Etrusca that you think the Vietnam war was a good thing. I feel sorry for you and will pray for your enlightenment.

I neither need nor want your prayers. You distort my posts and then attack the strawman you yourself created. Nowhere did I state that the Vietnam war was "a good thing." Kerry did in fact attack all Veitnam veterans, including those with whom he served, even going so far as to admit he himself comitted war crimes. It's all a matter of public record.

As to Kerry's "guts," I would laugh if it weren't so sad. Kerry served all of four months in Vietnam. At least give me credit for my own 24 months having given me a TAD more insight.

I never stated that "all vets hate Kerry." For those who don't, that is certainly their option, although it makes me wonder about their own judgment. I have yet to see any posts by Veitnam veterans on this board who support Kerry in any way. If you know of any posts by them, please point them out to me and assist in my "enlightenment."

am I? hmmm how very super of you to think so. I'm glad you can hold an intellectual conversation without insulting someone. I bow to your greatness oh wise one.

Could you like me to anything those that served directly with him disagree with him on please?


The gunner on his boat and the guy who wrote the Swift Vets book jump immediately to mind.

All vets? His testimony to Congress was on behalf of vets, not levied against them. Groups of veterans asked him to take their grievances to Washington for them. He was complaining about the situation that the Vets were placed in, not complaining about what Americans were like. Though what was done there was awful, Kerry was there too and understood the forces that were acting on these soldiers.

I was talking to those who actually think Kerry was bashing all Vietnam vets.

Yes it is "personal." Kerry made it personal when he accused me of committing atrocities "on a daily basis," and of "ravaging the countryside in a manner akin to Gengis Khan."

By what distorted sense of "fairness" can you sit on your hands when Vietnam veterans are pilloried once again, yet accuse me of "getting personal" when I attempt to defend against these surrilous attacks?

I have no problem with you attacking Kerry personally. Well, okay, I think it's rather scummy, but it's your right and I'm not gonna tell you not to.

I object to you personally attacking other members of this forum, and other third parties (such as the aforementioned veterans who "lack discernment and vision" because they don't agree with you).

Can you not see the difference here?

On another note.

I have the utmost respect for your service to our country, along with everyone else who has ever made a sacrifice for our nation. I apologize for whatever responsibility you feel I bear for your reception when you came home (although I had not even been conceived at the time). But make no mistake. I will not afford you any measure of leniency for this. We are all equals on the internet. If you don't want to be treated as an equal, it's as simple as not conversing online. What you experienced in Vietnam or afterwards does not entitle you to conduct yourself in this matter.

Keeping this in mind.

You have interested me, however. I googled for it, but (not knowing your real name) I was unable to find any transcripts showing Kerry to have said "Eutrusca committed atrocities on an almost daily business." Could you please point them out to me?

The gunner on his boat and the guy who wrote the Swift Vets book jump immediately to mind.


Then link it. And the guy who wrote the Swift vets book did not serve directly with Kerry now did he?

Kerry's current lie is that George Bush caused the flu vaccine shortage.I have seen Kerry's comments about the flu vaccine. He didn't say that Bush caused the shortage. He said Bush ignored some warning signs that there would be a shortage.

Kerry isn't the one lying here. J0eg0d, on the other hand,...

I neither need nor want your prayers. You distort my posts and then attack the strawman you yourself created. Nowhere did I state that the Vietnam war was "a good thing." Kerry did in fact attack all Veitnam veterans, including those with whom he served, even going so far as to admit he himself comitted war crimes. It's all a matter of public record.

As to Kerry's "guts," I would laugh if it weren't so sad. Kerry served all of four months in Vietnam. At least give me credit for my own 24 months having given me a TAD more insight.

I never stated that "all vets hate Kerry." For those who don't, that is certainly their option, although it makes me wonder about their own judgment. I have yet to see any posts by Veitnam veterans on this board who support Kerry in any way. If you know of any posts by them, please point them out to me and assist in my "enlightenment."

I have dial up so I am not going to search this board for posts to prove that there are vets who support Kerry on this board , besides I cant remember names very well, and I dont think it mattes anyway as you know there are vets who support Kerry.

If you had insight into what was going on in Vietnam you would know that there was a huge anti-war movement within the US ranks that was the main reason the US had to pull out of Vietnam.

Could you show me where on public record that "Kerry did in fact attack all Veitnam veterans"? That would be intersting, but I am betting you cant find that anywhere.

::yawn::

Kerry did in fact attack all Veitnam veterans, including those with whom he served,...I have read Kerry's Senate testimony that supposedly accused all Vietnam vets of committing atrocities. He didn't accuse them of committing atrocities. He said other vets told him they had committed atrocities. Unless you've got some source other than the testimony the Kerry-haters keep mentioning, now would be a good time for you to quit

I have seen Kerry's comments about the flu vaccine. He didn't say that Bush caused the shortage. He said Bush ignored some warning signs that there would be a shortage.

Kerry isn't the one lying here. J0eg0d, on the other hand,...

I was wondering where he got that. I haven't seen any such comment by Kerry. Although to be fair I don't think Bush could have done anything had he not ignored the warning signs. Theres only like two or three places that produce the vaccine, and one had said they found contaminations in a couple samples so they had to forfeit selling theirs.

My dad supports Kerry and he is a Vet.

I have seen Kerry's comments about the flu vaccine. He didn't say that Bush caused the shortage. He said Bush ignored some warning signs that there would be a shortage.

Kerry isn't the one lying here. J0eg0d, on the other hand,...Oh really? have you seen the facts? Have you seen what was done? Have you seen how the spin was applied?

Read this, and no need to reply!
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_1016a.html

My dad supports Kerry and he is a Vet.Yes, we know.
Ask him how many PHs he has. Ask him how many SSs and or BSs he has. Then ask him how long he spent in the jungle.
Then remind him kerry has, 3, 1, and 1, with 5 months!

I have dial up so I am not going to search this board for posts to prove that there are vets who support Kerry on this board , besides I cant remember names very well, and I dont think it mattes anyway as you know there are vets who support Kerry.

If you had insight into what was going on in Vietnam you would know that there was a huge anti-war movement within the US ranks that was the main reason the US had to pull out of Vietnam.

Could you show me where on public record that "Kerry did in fact attack all Veitnam veterans"? That would be intersting, but I am betting you cant find that anywhere.

Kerry stated that soldiers in Vietnam comitted atrocities "on a daily basis," and "with the full knowledge of the entire chain of command." If that's not an attack on all Vietnam veterans then what would be? If you are asking whether Kerry said "I am attacking all Vietnam veterans," then the answer has to be that I am not aware of his having said that. However, the implication of the words I quoted from him above is clear: he either believed or cynically presented that he believed we were all guilty of "comitting atrocities on a daily basis." If that's not good enough for you, then any further discussion is impossible.

Yes, we know.
Ask him how many PHs he has. Ask him how many SSs and or BSs he has. Then ask him how long he spent in the jungle.
Then remind him kerry has, 3, 1, and 1, with 5 months!

Correction: four months.

I'm a veteran ... I don't hate Kerry ... I am voting for him ...

Guess your thread topic is now rendered 100% a lie.

Oh well.

Kerry stated that soldiers in Vietnam comitted atrocities "on a daily basis," and "with the full knowledge of the entire chain of command." If that's not an attack on all Vietnam veterans then what would be? If you are asking whether Kerry said "I am attacking all Vietnam veterans," then the answer has to be that I am not aware of his having said that. However, the implication of the words I quoted from him above is clear: he either believed or cynically presented that he believed we were all guilty of "comitting atrocities on a daily basis." If that's not good enough for you, then any further discussion is impossible.

I see "soldiers". I don't see "all soldiers". Given the number of troops in Vietnam at any time, it's perfectly possible that "soldiers" were committing atrocities on a daily basis.

Y'know, this all makes me wonder what my grandfather thinks about this whole deal... He was a Major General in Vietnam (an area commander IIRC, and a real badass too... but I digress ;)). I know he's gonna vote for Bush (well, duh), but I do wonder how he feels about the Vietnam issue... He never discusses politics when we get together. He is pretty old for that :p

Kerry stated that soldiers in Vietnam comitted atrocities "on a daily basis," and "with the full knowledge of the entire chain of command." If that's not an attack on all Vietnam veterans then what would be? If you are asking whether Kerry said "I am attacking all Vietnam veterans," then the answer has to be that I am not aware of his having said that. However, the implication of the words I quoted from him above is clear: he either believed or cynically presented that he believed we were all guilty of "comitting atrocities on a daily basis." If that's not good enough for you, then any further discussion is impossible.

He said soldiers in Vietnam commited attrocities on a daily basis, not ALL soldiers in Vietnam. And yes there was a huge anti-war movement within the ranks because they knew of those attrocities across all ranks since they were there to witness them. Having knowledge of a crime does ot make one guilty of a crime. Perhaps you are just reaching so hard because you hate John Kerry so much that you very badly need him to be a liar to get your superhero Bush back in office for whatever reason which I have yet to see a good reason for.

I have read Kerry's Senate testimony that supposedly accused all Vietnam vets of committing atrocities. He didn't accuse them of committing atrocities. He said other vets told him they had committed atrocities. Unless you've got some source other than the testimony the Kerry-haters keep mentioning, now would be a good time for you to quit

I have read the testimony, and I was watching it as it happened.

Listen, if I actively solicit statements which agree with my preconcieved notions, if I quote these statements by other people as being true, if I summarize their statements in sworn testimony before the US Congress, if I later indicate on national television that I did the same things that others outlined in those statements, isn't that sufficient to indicate that I either believed what those statements said, or that I was cynicially using the statements for some personal advantage?

At least try to be fair-minded about this.

I have read the testimony, and I was watching it as it happened.

Listen, if I actively solicit statements which agree with my preconcieved notions, if I quote these statements by other people as being true, if I summarize their statements in sworn testimony before the US Congress, if I later indicate on national television that I did the same things that others outlined in those statements, isn't that sufficient to indicate that I either believed what those statements said, or that I was cynicially using the statements for some personal advantage?

At least try to be fair-minded about this.

could you say that in a way that makes sense please?

He said soldiers in Vietnam commited attrocities on a daily basis, not ALL soldiers in Vietnam. And yes there was a huge anti-war movement within the ranks because they knew of those attrocities across all ranks since they were there to witness them. Having knowledge of a crime does ot make one guilty of a crime. Perhaps you are just reaching so hard because you hate John Kerry so much that you very badly need him to be a liar to get your superhero Bush back in office for whatever reason which I have yet to see a good reason for.

No, but I suspect that you are so dazzled by Kerry you simply cannot listen to anything which might cast doubt on this amoral opportunist.

I have told you that I was in Vietnam for two years, from September 67 to September 69. Not ONCE during all that time did I personally witness an "atrocity" comitted by American soldiers. Yes, I heard about Mi Li. As a matter of fact, I was stationed at Fort Bragg while LT Calley was being court martialed. But Mi Li was the exception to the rule. Were there other "actrocities" comitted? Probably, but I wasn't aware of them and neither were any of the other veterans I knew. Since I was in the Infantry, it's highly unlikely I would not have heard about them had they existed, particularly for the 24 months I was in-country.

could you say that in a way that makes sense please?

Sigh. Nevermind. Live on in your little fantasy world.

Eutrusca.

Let me ask you this, would you rather have Kerry painted the real picture of Vietname or have him say it was a walk in the park and that the Vietanmese threw rose petals at the militatry as they marched in? j/w

Correction: four months.I read somewhere, he arrived in November and departed in March. So, I foolishly gave the benefit of the doubt.

4 Months, correction annotated.

Yes, we know.
Ask him how many PHs he has. Ask him how many SSs and or BSs he has. Then ask him how long he spent in the jungle.
Then remind him kerry has, 3, 1, and 1, with 5 months!
What has that got to do with Heiliger's dad supporting Kerry?

Eutrusca.

Let me ask you this, would you rather have Kerry painted the real picture of Vietname or have him say it was a walk in the park and that the Vietanmese threw rose petals at the militatry as they marched in? j/w

Just a simple question.

Just a simple question.

And not seven minutes old, at that :rolleyes:

And not seven minutes old, at that :rolleyes:

I'm just making sure he sees it so he'll be forced to answear it.

I'm just making sure he sees it so he'll be forced to answear it.

Eh, fair enough.

i will NOT vote for a man who LIED to get us into a useless war that has killed more than 1000 soldiers and uncounted iraqi civilians.

thats my bottom line. if nader was in kerrys position id vote for him, if badnarik was in kerrys position id vote for him. kerry is in kerrys position so he gets my vote. he cant possibly do a worse job than bush has done so far.

Hear! Hear!

My boss is a vet and he doesn't hate Kerry. Voting for him, in fact :p

OMGWTF THE THREAD IS WRONG !!ONEONEONE!

No, but I suspect that you are so dazzled by Kerry you simply cannot listen to anything which might cast doubt on this amoral opportunist.

I have told you that I was in Vietnam for two years, from September 67 to September 69. Not ONCE during all that time did I personally witness an "atrocity" comitted by American soldiers. Yes, I heard about Mi Li. As a matter of fact, I was stationed at Fort Bragg while LT Calley was being court martialed. But Mi Li was the exception to the rule. Were there other "actrocities" comitted? Probably, but I wasn't aware of them and neither were any of the other veterans I knew. Since I was in the Infantry, it's highly unlikely I would not have heard about them had they existed, particularly for the 24 months I was in-country.
Did America commit war crimes in Viet Nam, Cambodia, Laos?

Is it the duty of soldiers to report these war crimes?

Could the actions of Kerry have helped in ending the war in Viet Nam, (that America couldn't possibly win) and as a result, perhaps his actions ended up saving thousands of American lives?

What has that got to do with Heiliger's dad supporting Kerry?Just the Facts, it's all in the FACTS.

How did this become a war crimes debate? There are only like two guys here who can accurately talk about war crimes in Vietnam.

Oh really? have you seen the facts? Have you seen what was done? Have you seen how the spin was applied?

Read this, and no need to reply!
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_1016a.htmlI'm replying anyway. You linked to a campaign ad that says Bush ignored some warning signs about a flu vaccine shortage

I'm a veteran ... I don't hate Kerry ... I am voting for him ...

Guess your thread topic is now rendered 100% a lie.

Oh well.


I'm quoting myself because people will ignore it.

So, it's kinda like I'm repeating myself.

I am a Veteran. I am a decorated veteran. I directly saved the lives of two of my fellow soldiers and I was given a medal for it. There is no dispute over the veracity of my medals. I took them, yes, but I didn't want them because I felt I was only doing my job. I got them nonetheless because I was ordered to take them.

Now, that aside ...

I AM VOTING FOR KERRY.

I am a veteran and I AM VOTING FOR KERRY.

I voted for Clinton twice ... even when I was serving, I voted for Clinton.

Don't let people who scream "Veterans For Bush" sway you ... there are plenty of us liberal, hippy, leftist freaks who fought valiantly for our country.

How did this become a war crimes debate? There are only like two guys here who can accurately talk about war crimes in Vietnam.
How do you come to that conclusion?

I'm quoting myself because people will ignore it.

So, it's kinda like I'm repeating myself.

I am a Veteran. I am a decorated veteran. I directly saved the lives of two of my fellow soldiers and I was given a medal for it. There is no dispute over the veracity of my medals. I took them, yes, but I didn't want them because I felt I was only doing my job. I got them nonetheless because I was ordered to take them.

Now, that aside ...

I AM VOTING FOR KERRY.

I am a veteran and I AM VOTING FOR KERRY.

I voted for Clinton twice ... even when I was serving, I voted for Clinton.

Don't let people who scream "Veterans For Bush" sway you ... there are plenty of us liberal, hippy, leftist freaks who fought valiantly for our country.


Sir if I was there I would give you a firm handshake and a slaute.

How do you come to that conclusion?

Cause I know two guys in this debate right now are Vietnam Vets. Didn't mean to leave anyone out.

Sir if I was there I would give you a firm handshake and a slaute.


Gonna give you a better idea.

Go down to your local VFW or American Legion and give them $20.

Any little amount will do. I don't want thanks, I don't want praise, and I don't want a memorial ... I want you to go down and give lunch money to people who served but are worse off than me.

$20 seems trite, but every little bit helps.

Edit: Oh ... and pay attention to my sig. ;)

Gonna give you a better idea.

Go down to your local VFW or American Legion and give them $20.

Any little amount will do. I don't want thanks, I don't want praise, and I don't want a memorial ... I want you to go down and give lunch money to people who served but are worse off than me.

$20 seems trite, but every little bit helps.

I will do that tomorrow.

I'm replying anyway. You linked to a campaign ad that says Bush ignored some warning signs about a flu vaccine shortageExactly!
1. You can't read.
2. You chose not to read.

The article clearly states that The President took action. :eek:
The article also states, from the liberal view, that The President did not do anything, when in fact he outsourced. Then it spins back left that this is against but, this is as good as. Just like kerry, flip-flop waffle at the IHOP!

That's why I posted it, so people like YOU can see how the TRUTH gets construed to fit the anti President scheme of maneuver! From the liberal web site! All you have to do is READ! :D

Cause I know two guys in this debate right now are Vietnam Vets. Didn't mean to leave anyone out.
Because they are Viet Nam vets, does that equate that they are the only ones knowledgeable about US atrocities in Viet Nam?

This is an online debate supposedly about vets who hate John Kerry for detailing US atrocities during the Viet Nam war, which he is obligated to do by law. This ongoing character assasination against a Viet Nam war vet (Kerry) who risked his life to save a fellow sailor is nauseating to say the least.

I will do that tomorrow.


Then I salute you. :)

Because they are Viet Nam vets, does that equate that they are the only ones knowledgeable about US atrocities in Viet Nam?

This is an online debate supposedly about vets who hate John Kerry for detailing US atrocities during the Viet Nam war, which he is obligated to do by law. This ongoing character assasination against a Viet Nam war vet (Kerry) who risked his life to save a fellow sailor is nauseating to say the least.
Does your handle have anything to do with you?

How do you figure it is limited to Vietnam?
I'm a Gulf War vet, and can't for the life of me, understand how this QUITTER can even be on the ballot! He reminds me so much of another quitter, that clinton guy who ran to Europe when his turn was up!

If your handle does have something to do with you, go back home! If not, state your name and place of birth, and current citizenship!

I didn't see it in that quote of yourself, but what war are you a vet of, Keruv?

Does your handle have anything to do with you?

How do you figure it is limited to Vietnam?
I'm a Gulf War vet, and can't for the life of me, understand how this QUITTER can even be on the ballot! He reminds me so much of another quitter, that clinton guy who ran to Europe when his turn was up!

If your handle does have something to do with you, go back home! If not, state your name and place of birth, and current citizenship!

Yea well at least Clinton did admit to being a Draft Dodger, while Bush was parading around on that aircraft carrier like he was Patton! Bush isn't worthy eough to even lick the mud off of Patton boots!

I'm sure most of you have seen those commerials from the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth outlining the lies that Kerry is telling the American public.

Kerry's current lie is that George Bush caused the flu vaccine shortage.

I want to ask why anyone would support this person when he's making up things to get elected.

I'm sure you'll respond by stating, because you want Bush out, but you could just vote for Nadar to achieve the same goal. Why support an obviously crooked man?
Don't worry man, the vast majority of active duty military support Bush as well.

Because they are Viet Nam vets, does that equate that they are the only ones knowledgeable about US atrocities in Viet Nam?.

Yeah, it pretty much does. No shit huh?


This is an online debate supposedly about vets who hate John Kerry for detailing US atrocities during the Viet Nam war, which he is obligated to do by law. This ongoing character assasination against a Viet Nam war vet (Kerry) who risked his life to save a fellow sailor is nauseating to say the least.

No, this is a debate because those vets hate John Kerry for making shit up about what they did in Vietnam and tarnishing all of their names and service.

Yea well at least Clinton did admit to being a Draft Dodger, while Bush was parading around on that aircraft carrier like he was Patton! Bush isn't worthy eough to even lick the mud off of Patton boots!Let's see, your Dad is the Vet. That makes you a snot nosed anti war person. And a flamer to boot.

In your terminolgy, WHATEVER!

Does your handle have anything to do with you?

How do you figure it is limited to Vietnam?
I'm a Gulf War vet, and can't for the life of me, understand how this QUITTER can even be on the ballot! He reminds me so much of another quitter, that clinton guy who ran to Europe when his turn was up!

If your handle does have something to do with you, go back home! If not, state your name and place of birth, and current citizenship!
I am at home and doing my best to upset your cart full of rotten apples. :eek:

If Kerry is a quitter (who had a 75% chance of getting injured or killed), what does that make your boy George? Bush was out campaigning in the US (which is nowhere near Viet Nam) while Kerry was getting shot at in Viet Nam.

Some even suggest that Bush was AWOL in the US for crying out loud. He certainly was AWOL while America was being attacked on 9/11. :eek:

Yeah, it pretty much does. No shit huh?




No, this is a debate because those vets hate John Kerry for making shit up about what they did in Vietnam and tarnishing all of their names and service.
I think many posters on this thread that are against Kerry, are making shit up. :eek:

I am at home and doing my best to upset your cart full of rotten apples. :eek:

If Kerry is a quitter (who had a 75% chance of getting injured or killed), what does that make your boy George? Bush was out campaigning in the US (which is nowhere near Viet Nam) while Kerry was getting shot at in Viet Nam.

Some even suggest that Bush was AWOL in the US for crying out loud. He certainly was AWOL while America was being attacked on 9/11. :eek:


I was under the impression that Air Force One and Bush were targets on 9-11 and made several speeches throughout the day.

How's that for making shit up?

I am at home and doing my best to upset your cart full of rotten apples. :eek:

If Kerry is a quitter (who had a 75% chance of getting injured or killed), what does that make your boy George? Bush was out campaigning in the US (which is nowhere near Viet Nam) while Kerry was getting shot at in Viet Nam.

Some even suggest that Bush was AWOL in the US for crying out loud. He certainly was AWOL while America was being attacked on 9/11. :eek:Damn, I knew I was a better intelligence officer than the CIA gave credit.

Du bist ein Auslander.

Take your goat smelling ass back across the border.

Add "Canuck" to the foreigner list, and disregard all of his blasphemy!

Let's see, your Dad is the Vet. That makes you a snot nosed anti war person. And a flamer to boot.

In your terminolgy, WHATEVER!

And meanwhile you contiune to warped Kerry actual words, Support a man who degrades the word "pilot" got a cushy position in the TANG, and then went AWOL. I am not Anti-War, but I'm not Pro-War either. If our country is attacked then hell yes we should kick some ass! We Should be kicking Al-Queida and Bin Laden ass! Instead we are in a war that has no possible exit stragety that won't send Iraq into Civil War! Kerry is more of a man than Bush will ever be, and I think you're upset because you know damn well that Bush can't run on his current track records so you and all Bush supporters has to drag up something 30 years ago to make your puppet Bush look better! Well I'm sorry if Kerry decided to tell the truth. I'm sorry that he filled your head with knowledge. At least hes not like Cheney who got FIVE demerents (or however you spell it) and yet hes saying that "everything is going ok in Iraq, everyone is loving us in Iraq, Children are parading at their feets, women are throwing rose petals and men are laying down carpet in their path. Face it, the Bush Administration is a screw up, they're terrible, and the only way you can possibly make them look even remotely good if you bring up something 30 years ago! And in your Terminology, *Frankenstein voice* Bush Good, Kerry Bad!

I was under the impression that Air Force One and Bush were targets on 9-11 and made several speeches throughout the day.

How's that for making shit up?
If he was a target, then why did he sit in that classroom after learning that America was under attack? Was he using the children as a shield?

Damn, I knew I was a better intelligence officer than the CIA gave credit.

Du bist ein Auslander.

Take your goat smelling ass back across the border.

Add "Canuck" to the foreigner list, and disregard all of his blasphemy!
That idiot has been on my ignore list for a long time, and it is only when he is quoted that I have to be exposed to his idiotic rants.

Damn, I knew I was a better intelligence officer than the CIA gave credit.

Du bist ein Auslander.

Take your goat smelling ass back across the border.

Add "Canuck" to the foreigner list, and disregard all of his blasphemy!
You can only blasphem against God and believe me, Bush is not God. :)

That idiot has been on my ignore list for a long time, and it is only when he is quoted that I have to be exposed to his idiotic rants.
I know why I would be on your ignore list....you can't handle the truth?

And meanwhile you contiune to warped Kerry actual words, Support a man who degrades the word "pilot" got a cushy position in the TANG, and then went AWOL. I am not Anti-War, but I'm not Pro-War either. If our country is attacked then hell yes we should kick some ass! We Should be kicking Al-Queida and Bin Laden ass! Instead we are in a war that has no possible exit stragety that won't send Iraq into Civil War! Kerry is more of a man than Bush will ever be, and I think you're upset because you know damn well that Bush can't run on his current track records so you and all Bush supporters has to drag up something 30 years ago to make your puppet Bush look better! Well I'm sorry if Kerry decided to tell the truth. I'm sorry that he filled your head with knowledge. At least hes not like Cheney who got FIVE demerents (or however you spell it) and yet hes saying that "everything is going ok in Iraq, everyone is loving us in Iraq, Children are parading at their feets, women are throwing rose petals and men are laying down carpet in their path. Face it, the Bush Administration is a screw up, they're terrible, and the only way you can possibly make them look even remotely good if you bring up something 30 years ago! And in your Terminology, *Frankenstein voice* Bush Good, Kerry Bad!
You truly have a marvelous way with words and are very direct and to the point. Well done!! :cool:

And meanwhile you contiune to warped Kerry actual words, Support a man who degrades the word "pilot" got a cushy position in the TANG, and then went AWOL. I am not Anti-War, but I'm not Pro-War either. If our country is attacked then hell yes we should kick some ass! We Should be kicking Al-Queida and Bin Laden ass! Instead we are in a war that has no possible exit stragety that won't send Iraq into Civil War! Kerry is more of a man than Bush will ever be, and I think you're upset because you know damn well that Bush can't run on his current track records so you and all Bush supporters has to drag up something 30 years ago to make your puppet Bush look better! Well I'm sorry if Kerry decided to tell the truth. I'm sorry that he filled your head with knowledge. At least hes not like Cheney who got FIVE demerents (or however you spell it) and yet hes saying that "everything is going ok in Iraq, everyone is loving us in Iraq, Children are parading at their feets, women are throwing rose petals and men are laying down carpet in their path. Face it, the Bush Administration is a screw up, they're terrible, and the only way you can possibly make them look even remotely good if you bring up something 30 years ago! And in your Terminology, *Frankenstein voice* Bush Good, Kerry Bad!

Are you of legal age?

You truly have a marvelous way with words and are very direct and to the point. Well done!! :cool:

Thank you.

Are you of legal age?

Yes I am.

Hey, I'm on active duty. And I'm voting for Kerry. Mostly because I want my friend who has now lost part of his leg in Iraq to have bought somthing with his blood, and not just a quagmire of civil war and ethnic/religious strife.

But hey, thats just me.

Hey, I'm on active duty. And I'm voting for Kerry. Mostly because I want my friend who has now lost part of his leg in Iraq to have bought somthing with his blood, and not just a quagmire of civil war and ethnic/religious strife.

But hey, thats just me.


I know exactly how that goes, but I don't see how you get that from Kerry.

If he was a target, then why did he sit in that classroom after learning that America was under attack? Was he using the children as a shield?


LOL would you have rather he run screaming out the classroom in panic?

What do you just worship at the shrine of Michael Moore?

Hey, I'm on active duty. And I'm voting for Kerry. Mostly because I want my friend who has now lost part of his leg in Iraq to have bought somthing with his blood, and not just a quagmire of civil war and ethnic/religious strife.

But hey, thats just me.
Well, if Kerry wins, he'll pull out, and a new dictator will take over, and your friends blood will have gone to waste.

LOL would you have rather he run screaming out the classroom in panic?

What do you just worship at the shrine of Michael Moore?
No actually I don't, although I did enjoy the film, It was truly an eye opener.

Bush sat there almost emotionless and no I didn't expect him to run out of the room in a panic, but I did expect that he would excuse himself and leave. It is extremely difficult to defend your country, as Commander in Chief if you are preoccupied with My Pet Goat?

Well, if Kerry wins, he'll pull out, and a new dictator will take over, and your friends blood will have gone to waste.


Try to be a little more political with these types of statements. As someone who this war and its eventual conclusion means a lot to, I certainly wouldn't want someone disagreeing with me in this fashion.

Show a little civility and a little respect.

Well, if Kerry wins, he'll pull out, and a new dictator will take over, and your friends blood will have gone to waste.
Perhaps it is better to keep sending more and more troops over there and put them in harms way? :eek:

Kerry has an exit plan and Bush is just winging it.

Yes I am.Then go and research the slanders that kerry has thrown at The President. Speak of yourself, and not of your father, allow him to speak his own mind. Give him a PC, a internet connection, or at least access to yours.

Go and seek the truth, and not the beliefs of others. For IMHO, neither is a good candidate for The Presidency, however, the current President is a strong leader, and will not allow the country to fall or fail in it's supreme roll of the greatest nation on the planet!

As you stated, why do we bring up ancient history? I'm a son of a WWII vet, and a vet of DS/DS/ and OIF, but I will not allow my country to become the target of a raghead, and yes I said RAGHEAD!

Some points have been made that kerry is too liberal, and will not defend the country or the Constitution when push comes to shove. I for one do not want to see if there is any truth whatsoever in that staement!

Perhaps it is better to keep sending more and more troops over there and put them in harms way? :eek:

Kerry has an exit plan and Bush is just winging it.


Whats Kerry's exit plan may I ask? I thought he wanted two new divisions and to bring more foreign troops in?

Then go and research the slanders that kerry has thrown at The President. Speak of yourself, and not of your father, allow him to speak his own mind. Give him a PC, a internet connection, or at least access to yours.

Go and seek the truth, and not the beliefs of others. For IMHO, neither is a good candidate for The Presidency, however, the current President is a strong leader, and will not allow the country to fall or fail in it's supreme roll of the greatest nation on the planet!

As you stated, why do we bring up ancient history? I'm a son of a WWII vet, and a vet of DS/DS/ and OIF, but I will not allow my country to become the target of a raghead, and yes I said RAGHEAD!

Some points have been made that kerry is too liberal, and will not defend the country or the Constitution when push comes to shove. I for one do not want to see if there is any truth whatsoever in that staement!

They're Hajis now, not ragheads. That is soooo last war.

:sniper:

Then go and research the slanders that kerry has thrown at The President. Speak of yourself, and not of your father, allow him to speak his own mind. Give him a PC, a internet connection, or at least access to yours.

Go and seek the truth, and not the beliefs of others. For IMHO, neither is a good candidate for The Presidency, however, the current President is a strong leader, and will not allow the country to fall or fail in it's supreme roll of the greatest nation on the planet!

As you stated, why do we bring up ancient history? I'm a son of a WWII vet, and a vet of DS/DS/ and OIF, but I will not allow my country to become the target of a raghead, and yes I said RAGHEAD!

Some points have been made that kerry is too liberal, and will not defend the country or the Constitution when push comes to shove. I for one do not want to see if there is any truth whatsoever in that staement!
I see you finally came clean and tossed your credibility right out the window. Congratulations. :eek:

Whats Kerry's exit plan may I ask? I thought he wanted two new divisions and to bring more foreign troops in?
The two new divisions would be to bring back the back the National Guardsmen to help with Homeland Security, and to spell off the other servicemen that have been over extended. Did you not see the debates?

The two new divisions would be to bring back the back the National Guardsmen to help with Homeland Security, and to spell off the other servicemen that have been over extended. Did you not see the debates?


Thats still not an exit strategy. What's Kerry's exit strategy?

Thats still not an exit strategy. What's Kerry's exit strategy?The Senator from left field does not have one. That's why this foreigner is playing ring around the fire with you.

Thats still not an exit strategy. What's Kerry's exit strategy?
I wouldn't want to missquote Kerry on such an important matter, so you can check it out for yourself here:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,134152,00.html

Thats still not an exit strategy. What's Kerry's exit strategy?

Right now we're, quite frankly, overextended. The first step is to stop being overextended.

We can't just cut and run. We aren't going to. But we can do this the smart way.

I wouldn't want to missquote Kerry on such an important matter, so you can check it out for yourself here:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,134152,00.html


Read it. He details no exit strategy, he talks about whats wrong there. So once again, you said Kerry has an exit strategy and Bush doesn't. Whats Kerry's exit strategy that you proclaim he has?

Kerry's exit plan is to cut and run like a good liberal.

Read it. He details no exit strategy, he talks about whats wrong there. So once again, you said Kerry has an exit strategy and Bush doesn't. Whats Kerry's exit strategy that you proclaim he has?
Well I thought it was there. I know I heard him detail it on TV during the debate. At any rate, you can try this site (which does detail the exit strategy):

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2004_0920.html

Kerry's exit plan is to cut and run like a good liberal.

And Bush's plan is to become embroiled in a quagmire we're too stubborn to admit we can never win. Hey, what do you know, we're right back where we started...

And Bush's plan is to become embroiled in a quagmire we're too stubborn to admit we can never win. Hey, what do you know, we're right back where we started...
Maybe you can't win it, but we can. Nazi Germany wasn't defeated and leashed in one year either.

Maybe you can't win it, but we can. Nazi Germany wasn't defeated and leashed in one year either.

I always love that wind-swept hairstyle people get as the point goes rushing by... :rolleyes:

Are you truly unable to differentiate between a lie and making a decision based on the best information available at the time? How many times is it going to be necessary to point out that everyone, Bush, Congress, Republicans, Democrats ( including Kerry ), the UN ... everyone ... believed at the time that Saddam Hussein either possessed weapons of mass destruction and/or the means of quickly creating them?


Yet you didn't let the weapons inspectors finish their job and confirm that these weapons really existed. You were all too reassured by the fact that the Russians intelligence agency and the CIA had "seen" weapons there a few years prior..

W-what was this discussion about again?

But does it really matter what Kerry's exit plan is? If a janitor pees on the floor and leaves because his shift is over does the next janitor have any alternatives to cleaning up the mess?

Kerry's in the some position if he's president: he's got a mess on his hands left by Dubya. And the ' cut and run' tactic isn't so bad as you say it is. It's clear the Iraqis hate your guts, and aren't too squeamish to spoon 'em out of your bodies (it hurts more). Can you blame them if your soldiers are driving through their streets in Abrams, Hummers and patrolling their airspace with B2's?

They don't seem to have a trouble with the lesser countries. Out of thousands of dead soldiers there's only one dutchmen and a few poles. They might not like the British as much, but first the Arabs and Brits have a long and painful history and two Blair's the Undeniable Squire of America. If the Americans left the remaining forces wouldn't have much on their hand in the first place and it would satisfy the demands of millions of Iraqis. Things can only quiet down.

But neither candidate is going to think that's 'acceptable'. So what if their exiting plans are the same? You can spend a lifetime accusing Kerry of copying Bush's plans or that his own ones are flawed. The fact is that there's a mess there, and you're only going to get rid of it by sweeping it clean. If Kerry could do a better job if he promised to repair the infrastructure and get Arab-friendly countries to replace the US occupying force than that may well be. But I haven't seen any plans from Dubya that are as bright as this either. They're liars, it's in their blood. But are you going to prefer a man who lies about big things like Superweapons, the economic crisis, the enviroment and human right abuses? Or do you prefer a 'self-important' man who brags about his military record and lies the healthcare and economy is in a bad state (Hmm, that's actually true. Score two for Kerry!)? In the end, Kerry isn't half as bad as Bush's big buddies in Italy, Russia, Pakistan and Saudi-Arabia (how about we remove those (semi-)dictators from power hmm?).

Maybe you can't win it, but we can. Nazi Germany wasn't defeated and leashed in one year either.
I think this may be a huge part of your problem regarding the issue of Iraq. I truly believe that Iraqis are not like a pack of dogs that need to be "leashed" as you so eloquently stated. The insurgents appear extremely unwilling to be tamed by American style "democracy", and I can understand why. :eek:

I always love that wind-swept hairstyle people get as the point goes rushing by... :rolleyes:
Extremely funny!! :cool:

The only veterans who hate Kerry (other than pathologically hateful ones) are those who either:

a) do not know what he actually said about Viet Nam War atrocities, and think he has accused all VN veterans of them, or

b) commited atrocities in Viet Nam, and hate him for talking about it publically.

The only veterans who hate Kerry (other than pathologically hateful ones) are those who either:

a) do not know what he actually said about Viet Nam War atrocities, and think he has accused all VN veterans of them, or Again I'm not a Vietnam Vet, but a DS and present OIF Vet. I read, watched whatever media form there was, I looked into it. He spoke out, yes, against his country, and his fellow brethern of the era. For what, personal and political acknowledgement!


b) commited atrocities in Viet Nam, and hate him for talking about it publically. Nope, was not there. But had family that was, they did not see anything that could be put into the context that he claimed happened.
He broke the honor code, plain and simple!

so how many american men and women have to die in a war we shouldnt be in before you know it was a huge mistake?

There have been 1,228 coalition deaths, 1,089 Americans, 68 Britons, six Bulgarians, one Dane, two Dutch, one Estonian, one Hungarian, 19 Italians, one Latvian, 13 Poles, one Salvadoran, three Slovaks, 11 Spaniards, two Thai, nine Ukrainians and one soldier whose nationality has not been identified, in the war in Iraq as of October 15, 2004.

i just took that off a cnn.com page

so as of friday, 1,089 americans dead. will it have been a mistate when its 5000 dead? how about 54.000?

george bush has given us lies, bad judgement and an unwillingness to open his eyes to look at reality.

what i really dont understand is how you can have gone to war yourself and not be SICKENED at knowing that our soldiers are there fighting dying and getting maimed for no good reason. every reason that we had going in turned out to be WRONG. how can it not matter to you?

it honestly brings me to tears knowing the sacrifice of our soldiers and the uselessness of it.

so how many american men and women have to die in a war we shouldnt be in before you know it was a huge mistake?

There have been 1,228 coalition deaths, 1,089 Americans, 68 Britons, six Bulgarians, one Dane, two Dutch, one Estonian, one Hungarian, 19 Italians, one Latvian, 13 Poles, one Salvadoran, three Slovaks, 11 Spaniards, two Thai, nine Ukrainians and one soldier whose nationality has not been identified, in the war in Iraq as of October 15, 2004.

i just took that off a cnn.com page

so as of friday, 1,089 americans dead. will it have been a mistate when its 5000 dead? how about 54.000?

george bush has given us lies, bad judgement and an unwillingness to open his eyes to look at reality.

what i really dont understand is how you can have gone to war yourself and not be SICKENED at knowing that our soldiers are there fighting dying and getting maimed for no good reason. every reason that we had going in turned out to be WRONG. how can it not matter to you?

it honestly brings me to tears knowing the sacrifice of our soldiers and the uselessness of it.

It brings me to tears that so many don't understand that these brave men and women helped to free an entire nation, and that THEY, at least, understand the sacrifices their brothers and sisters while many of us do not.

The Iraqis understand as well.

Humaila Akrawy, an Iraqi citizen, spoke recently to a group of wounded American servicemen and servicewomen. Her sister was killed for working with Americans, her brother was killed by Saddam Hussein's secret police, and another sister was targeted by Uday Hussein and had to be smuggled out of the country.

She spoke of the Iraq's gratitude to America and the troops who helped to free the country and its people from the terrorism of Saddam Hussein. She said the troops are, indeed, winning the war, because if they weren't, the insurgents would ignore them.

"I can never tell you how grateful I am and how grateful my people are for your sacrifice. You left your homes … to fight for a people you have never known," Akrawy said. "When the sun sets over the deserts and mountains of Iraq, the good people of Iraq look at the West and are happy to know that the sun is rising to the people who rescued us from the darkness and evil of Saddam.

"Never think that your work in Iraq was wasted," she continued. "Never let anybody to say that you shed your blood in vain. You have given the people of Iraq, of Afghanistan, the chance to be free."

were you not IN the us when we went to war?
have you forgotten so soon our justifications at the time?
it had NOTHING to do with liberation
we were protecting ourselves against imminenet attack by an intrenched enemy
we had no TIME to build a coalition, we had no TIME to make sure that our men and women had body armor. we had to go NOW

our soldiers didnt go to liberate the iraqis. you know that. so why pretend NOW?

why do you HAVE TO PRETEND?

every reason given for us to go into that war has been proven to be WRONG. it really doesnt matter to you?

were you not IN the us when we went to war?
have you forgotten so soon our justifications at the time? it had NOTHING to do with liberation we were protecting ourselves against imminenet attack by an intrenched enemy we had no TIME to build a coalition, we had no TIME to make sure that our men and women had body armor. we had to go NOW our soldiers didnt go to liberate the iraqis. you know that. so why pretend NOW?
why do you HAVE TO PRETEND?
every reason given for us to go into that war has been proven to be WRONG. It really doesnt matter to you?
Sigh. One more time: I am not "pretending!" We've been over and over and over all this in innumerable other threads. The reasons for the military action in Iraq were numerous, but you always come back to the WMD-related reasons, which were based on the best intelligence available at the time, and were supported by virtually every office-holder in the US including BOTH candidates for President. What is so difficult for you to comprehend about this? How does the fact that we have yet to locate large quantities of WMDs alter the fact that there is now one less tyrant in the world?

Sigh. One more time: I am not "pretending!" We've been over and over and over all this in innumerable other threads. The reasons for the military action in Iraq were numerous, but you always come back to the WMD-related reasons, which were based on the best intelligence available at the time, and were supported by virtually every office-holder in the US including BOTH candidates for President. What is so difficult for you to comprehend about this? How does the fact that we have yet to locate large quantities of WMDs alter the fact that there is now one less tyrant in the world?
well gee
because our president used his BEST judgement
told some lies to back it up
rushed us into war
AND WAS WRONG

now as i said before, the lying thing seals it for ME

but he is a man with bad judgement when it really counts. that should be enough for anyone else

now im not saying thar our military should be ashamed of what they have done. they have done an AMAZING job in very difficult circumstances. they have rid the world of a tyrant. they have for the most part, treated the iraqis very well. they have conducted themselves at a professional level that (cynical) people would not have believed possible out of their generation. they have every reason to be proud of the job they have done

too bad it didnt have to be done.

... told some lies to back it up

now as i said before, the lying thing seals it for ME

Prove to me that he deliberately lied, and I do NOT mean with the extreme leftist or left-leaning sites most on here will quote as gospel!

... he is a man with bad judgement when it really counts. that should be enough for anyone else

IF President Bush exercised "bad judgement," then so did Herr Kerry when he first "voted for it" back before he "voted against it," after he voted for it, etc., etc.

now im not saying thar our military should be ashamed of what they have done. they have done an AMAZING job in very difficult circumstances. they have rid the world of a tyrant. they have for the most part, treated the iraqis very well. they have conducted themselves at a professional level that (cynical) people would not have believed possible out of their generation. they have every reason to be proud of the job they have done

I agree with this portion. But does this not illustrate that the military action in Iraq was right? This is one reason so many leftists leave me confused as to what they actually believe. I think what it boils down to with so many of you is that you simply don't like President Bush's style and would oppose him even if he was the second coming of Jesus Christ!

Prove to me that he deliberately lied, and I do NOT mean with the extreme leftist or left-leaning sites most on here will quote as gospel!



IF President Bush exercised "bad judgement," then so did Herr Kerry when he first "voted for it" back before he "voted against it," after he voted for it, etc., etc.



I agree with this portion. But does this not illustrate that the military action in Iraq was right? This is one reason so many leftists leave me confused as to what they actually believe. I think what it boils down to with so many of you is that you simply don't like President Bush's style and would oppose him even if he was the second coming of Jesus Christ!

ive already discussed lying in this thread

it was bush's judgement. it was HIS mistake. you know very well what kerry did and did not do.

and no, the superb performance of our military does not justify our invading a country that has never done anything to us and had no means to do so in the future. it was that rushing to war that meant the lives of 1089 of our soldiers and manymany more maimed. i really cant get past that

to be honest, i have NEVER voted for a republican for president and i doubt i ever will.

BUT

when bush1 was running for re-election i was not against him winning. not that i VOTED for him you understand, it was just that if he had won, i would have been OK with it. he had been to war, he had the best resume of anyone who has ever been president, and he was a reasonable man. too bad he was a republican. i felt the same way about bob dole when he ran against clinton in 96. i didnt vote for him but if he had won it would have been OK with me. in fact, when bush2 was running against gore, i didnt hate him. i felt he didnt have the qualifications for the job, and that he was, well, a republican, but i didnt have a huge problem with him

now i do.

ive already discussed lying in this thread

it was bush's judgement. it was HIS mistake. you know very well what kerry did and did not do.

and no, the superb performance of our military does not justify our invading a country that has never done anything to us and had no means to do so in the future. it was that rushing to war that meant the lives of 1089 of our soldiers and manymany more maimed. i really cant get past that

to be honest, i have NEVER voted for a republican for president and i doubt i ever will.

BUT

when bush1 was running for re-election i was not against him winning. not that i VOTED for him you understand, it was just that if he had won, i would have been OK with it. he had been to war, he had the best resume of anyone who has ever been president, and he was a reasonable man. too bad he was a republican. i felt the same way about bob dole when he ran against clinton in 96. i didnt vote for him but if he had won it would have been OK with me. in fact, when bush2 was running against gore, i didnt hate him. i felt he didnt have the qualifications for the job, and that he was, well, a republican, but i didnt have a huge problem with him

now i do.

I have voted for Democrats several times in my life. I will never do so again.

I always love that wind-swept hairstyle people get as the point goes rushing by... :rolleyes:
I always love that deer-in-the-headlights look that people get when they realize they are idiots. :rolleyes:

Why do people make a fuzz over the right and wrong reasons for invading Iraq? Bush obviously didn't want to do things simply. Otherwise he wouldn't have lied.

There clearly are no WMDs in Iraq. The closest they got to that was some explosive ammunitions with chemicals from the Iraq-Iran war. Lost somewhere in the desert. The UN inspectors where proving him wrong, so mister Bush threw a hissy fit and invaded anyway.

Connections between Osama and Saddam was no reason either. They might have had some dialogue, but their working methods where very different. I doubt they'd even get along, for the only thing that puts them in the same camp is their dislike for America.

The only reason that would be valid, which Bush didn't use to spearhead his campaign against Saddam Hussein, was the man's obvious disrespect for Kurds and Shi'ites. He wasted so many human lifes that you could invade Iraq ten times over and still have public opinion with you. Instead Dubya tells us fairy tales about Hussein and fourty Nukes, Saddam and the Wonder Lab, and Stories of 1001 Anthrax nights. In a way, this war was for all the wrong reasons.

Still they excuse it with 'we where working with the info we had'. They said it was so reliable, but how could the CIA, MI6, Russian Intelligence and the Israelian intelligence be so wrong? All four where either working with outdated information (which is never reliable) or someone has been making up lies again. Three intelligence services are biased and the country leaders would benefit from seeing Saddam Hussein dissapear. I don't know where Bush came from with the Russian Intelligence when even Poetin called this war a big mistake. Maybe someone has been smoking coke again before reading a speech.

And now people are dying. People died for the US 'Shock and Awe' bombing, which is a terror campaign in itself. People have died when George the first tried to mobilize the Shi'ite majority. People have died during wedding parties for goodness' sake! I saw a video on TV in which a chopper pilot gunned down two Iraqis 'suspected' of shady activity, mind you it's nothing definite. One dies, the other is wounded. The commander tells the pilot to shoot again at the living. That's murder, and the pilot should have known better. You can refuse an order from a superior who voilates the Geneva agreements.

Not all Americans are stupid buffoons who would massacare people on suspicions. But things like that godawful 'Shock and Awe' stuff, Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib is totally wrong and cannot be allowed to stand. Somehow, Dubya's administration thinks the first two are perfectly right. We still hear people like Rumsfeld telling us "Look at the fine fine print" in regard to the Guantanamo Bay abuses, which the US governments does not claim any responsibility to. But they do have the power to change it! And that angers me! If they are just too lazy to be bothered with US abuse of prisoners outside their 'responsibility' I wish they fell into the hands of kidnappers instead of people like Ken Bigley.

And then there are those insurgents. They aren't there because they liked Saddam better or are loyal to Osama Bin Laden. They hate Americans. If you still don't know why they do, you can read a little about the history of Iraq, Cuba, Chile, South Vietnam and Suadi Arabia. And don't read it as an American, read it as a Iraqi who has been chewed out and trampled by a crackpot dicator the likes of Pinochet, Kim Ill Sun or Generalisimo Franco. You can't really blame these insurgents for hating imperialist invaders. And they will continue as long as there are US tanks patrolling their streets.

Everyone is glad Hussein is gone, that's undeniable. But Arabs still don't like Americans. And that will not change soon. They can't appreciate the soldier's successes like we do, and not because they're evil. They think completely different than us. I personally don't condone the beheadings of outsiders, but they don't condone US occupation either. And the US really is hated throughout the country. An interview by the Dutch army of locals in south Iraq got some very strong replies. The people thanked god they where occupied by Dutch and Japanese, not those 'stinking pigs' from the US of A. Arabs are from a different culture, and you have to be one before you have any right to bitch them for being unthankful. Even then, you'll be targeted as a conspiritator by the insurgents.

Thousands of people haven't *died* because of Kerry "lying"...

There've been some posts that did not have any thought into them...
Bush -is- the first president to lose jobs. I think you need to understand what losing jobs means. Losing jobs means you lost jobs without replacing them. So, if you lost 1,000,000 burger flippers (example, obviously), you'd have to replace it with 1,000,000 more burger flippers, or factory workers, or accountants, etc. If you don't, you are considered to have lost jobs. Bush is the first to still sit at a negative number at the end of his term since the Great Depression.
However, I (unlike most pro-democrats) do not blame Bush for these jobs. 9/11 attributed to a catostrophic loss of jobs and a decline in certain industries such as aircraft production. I'm sure we would see that if it did not happen the jobs lost in America would not be quite so bad. But with a war, millions of more jobs should have been created, which did not happen.

I think, maybe you should watch that Kerry Documentary.

Kerry is the man who invented those supposed atrocities, especially the term "baby-killers".

I'm sure you've heard of the history; Vietnam Veterans were spat on as they arrived home on those planes, and it was because of John Kerry's testimony that it happened.

Vietnam Veterans do not support Kerry because of the harm he has caused them all.

I'm pretty sure the spitting occurred because of how heated things were while they were gone.

And the Republicans spat on the veterans as well. The Vets had to fight long and hard for their rights after they returned. The government turned a blind eye to them. They don't like losers. If I remember right, Kerry and McCain were big on getting the Vets the justice they deserved after the war.

If I remember right, Kerry and McCain were big on getting the Vets the justice they deserved after the war.
McCain yes, Kerry no.

all this whole thread has been about is people nitpicking about someone did this, someone said that. its bad enough when your five and its your sister, but when its someone elses argument thaTS ridiculous.all of you are whining about things that obviously go far beyond your comprehension. do you know all of our security reports? are you cia? fbi even? no in fact you probably say what you hear and stretch the truth a bit, but thats not the point. the point is instead of saying, bush hates jews, or kerry rapes little girls, talk about the good things. kerry wants to make minimum wage $7.00 thats great for young people but not for older people. bush pursues an active thought. a friend of mine has sat down in meetings with bush and bush knows alot of people dont like what he does, but he believes its justful and right for the world. he stands firm and knows exactly what he wants. --to me, bush is a very "stand firm" bold leader with a just cause-- and kerry is an opportunist who changes with the world, not with his own opinion. both can be very good things. how about we VOTE FOR WHO WE WANT, NOT AGAINST WHO WE DONT WANT. lets grow up and be somewhat of a responsible nation. HELL I COULD NAME A MILLION BAD THINGS ABOUT EACH OF THEM, BUT I WONT BECAUSE THEY WOULDNT BE SO FAR IN A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IF THEY WERENT BOTH VERY STRONG WILLED DETERMINED LEADERS WITH QUALITIES ADMIRED BY A DEMOCRATIC NATION. ID LIKE TO SEE ANY OF YOU GET ENOUGH BALLS AND BE SO DAMN GOOD THAT YOU CAN MAKE IT TO THE PRIMARYS OF A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION FOR THE GREATEST NATION IN THE WORLD. grow up!

all this whole thread has been about is people nitpicking about someone did this, someone said that. its bad enough when your five and its your sister, but when its someone elses argument thaTS ridiculous.all of you are whining about things that obviously go far beyond your comprehension. do you know all of our security reports? are you cia? fbi even? no in fact you probably say what you hear and stretch the truth a bit, but thats not the point. the point is instead of saying, bush hates jews, or kerry rapes little girls, talk about the good things. kerry wants to make minimum wage $7.00 thats great for young people but not for older people. bush pursues an active thought. a friend of mine has sat down in meetings with bush and bush knows alot of people dont like what he does, but he believes its justful and right for the world. he stands firm and knows exactly what he wants. --to me, bush is a very "stand firm" bold leader with a just cause-- and kerry is an opportunist who changes with the world, not with his own opinion. both can be very good things. how about we VOTE FOR WHO WE WANT, NOT AGAINST WHO WE DONT WANT. lets grow up and be somewhat of a responsible nation. HELL I COULD NAME A MILLION BAD THINGS ABOUT EACH OF THEM, BUT I WONT BECAUSE THEY WOULDNT BE SO FAR IN A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IF THEY WERENT BOTH VERY STRONG WILLED DETERMINED LEADERS WITH QUALITIES ADMIRED BY A DEMOCRATIC NATION. ID LIKE TO SEE ANY OF YOU GET ENOUGH BALLS AND BE SO DAMN GOOD THAT YOU CAN MAKE IT TO THE PRIMARYS OF A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION FOR THE GREATEST NATION IN THE WORLD. grow up!
I sincerely hope this diatribe wasn't directed at me.

my uncle went to vietnam as a ranger/medic as a ,then, buck sergeant/E-5. he saw his best friend be ripped apart by a 50cal machine gun, and along with fellow wounded soldier took out the gun platform.

upon arrival back into san diego 2 years later as a master sergeant/E-8, guess who he meet? Jane Fonda and good-old Mr. Kerry, calling him a babykiller and criminal. he threw all of his medals(2 purple hearts, 1 bronze star) into the San Diego Bay to hid the fact he even went to vietnam. He chose not to apply for the Congressional Medal of Honor which he easily could have been awarded. 10 years later he finally told his wife 5 years into their marriage that he went there. She got all of his medals and ribbons back and he is proud to say he went to vietnam. Now he is applying for the CMH since i am trying to get into the Naval Academy. He will never vote for kerry, or do anything pro-kerry.

His name is Randall (Randy) Robinson if you want to verify that information

my uncle went to vietnam as a ranger/medic as a ,then, buck sergeant/E-5. he saw his best friend be ripped apart by a 50cal machine gun, and along with fellow wounded soldier took out the gun platform.

upon arrival back into san diego 2 years later as a master sergeant/E-8, guess who he meet? Jane Fonda and good-old Mr. Kerry, calling him a babykiller and criminal. he threw all of his medals(2 purple hearts, 1 bronze star) into the San Diego Bay to hid the fact he even went to vietnam. He chose not to apply for the Congressional Medal of Honor which he easily could have been awarded. 10 years later he finally told his wife 5 years into their marriage that he went there. She got all of his medals and ribbons back and he is proud to say he went to vietnam. Now he is applying for the CMH since i am trying to get into the Naval Academy. He will never vote for kerry, or do anything pro-kerry.

His name is Randall (Randy) Robinson if you want to verify that information
What a FANTASTIC story. :eek:

my uncle went to vietnam as a ranger/medic as a ,then, buck sergeant/E-5. he saw his best friend be ripped apart by a 50cal machine gun, and along with fellow wounded soldier took out the gun platform.

upon arrival back into san diego 2 years later as a master sergeant/E-8, guess who he meet? Jane Fonda and good-old Mr. Kerry, calling him a babykiller and criminal. he threw all of his medals(2 purple hearts, 1 bronze star) into the San Diego Bay to hid the fact he even went to vietnam. He chose not to apply for the Congressional Medal of Honor which he easily could have been awarded. 10 years later he finally told his wife 5 years into their marriage that he went there. She got all of his medals and ribbons back and he is proud to say he went to vietnam. Now he is applying for the CMH since i am trying to get into the Naval Academy. He will never vote for kerry, or do anything pro-kerry.

His name is Randall (Randy) Robinson if you want to verify that information

No need. I know of him. Tell him "Welcome home" from an old, disabled Infantry Captain. :)

I always love that deer-in-the-headlights look that people get when they realize they are idiots. :rolleyes:

And again. It's so much easier to insult people than to actually listen to what they're saying, isn't it...

Jane Fonda and good-old Mr. Kerry, calling him a babykiller and criminal.were there any witnesses to back up this claim that Kerry called someone a babykiller and criminal for going to Vietnam?

And again. It's so much easier to insult people than to actually listen to what they're saying, isn't it...
You throw out the first insult, then whine when insulted? Shut up.

Again I'm not a Vietnam Vet, but a DS and present OIF Vet. I read, watched whatever media form there was, I looked into it. He spoke out, yes, against his country, and his fellow brethern of the era. For what, personal and political acknowledgement!

Nope, was not there. But had family that was, they did not see anything that could be put into the context that he claimed happened.
He broke the honor code, plain and simple!

I looked into it too. He spoke about atrocities that he had witnessed and, under orders, participated in, and that he had been told about by others who wished to remain anonymous. If that was speaking out against his country, I fail to see it, unless one of his country's principles is to deny crimes commited by its agents. And I fail to see how you think you can know his motivations.

I am glad to hear that your kin were not exposed to such crimes. I hope they are telling you the truth , as otherwise they must not only live with those memories but do so in secrecy. I also had kin, and friends, in Viet Nam and they tell a different story. I have also looked into this myself, and I have seen interviews with veterans who did commit such crimes, such as a drunked and homicidal new year's eve bombardment of a friendly village.

Atrocities occur in all wars, such as Sherman's orders to his troops (many of which were convicts, as was the case in Viet Nam) to treat any southern woman who disrespects them as a whore, and such as the Abu Graib tortures. However the atrocities commited in Viet Nam were indeed widespread. But from one who was not there to another, neither of us can say for sure. Kerry was there, and has confessed to firing at civilians, under orders. In a "he-said-she-said" situation, what had he to gain? Popularity? What code of honour has he broken? "Thou shalt not narc"?

Finally, I thank you for your service, I am glad you are safely home, and I pray for those who are still there, our own as well as all others. Believe it or not I have great respect for veterans and I support our troops. I do not support the moronic lying sociopathic daddy's-little-guardsman who sent you there, however, and I do not believe that this does anything to deminish my support for you.