NationStates Jolt Archive

Now most of you are just sitting their thinking "who cares? neither does any thinking person". Well I'm a Catholic, a devout one at that. I observe the sacrements, I say my rosaries, I attend Mass I do the whole nine yards. However I just don't know if I believe in God.

It started off with me questioning Church doctrine, then I noticed that certain dogma contradicts the bible, then accounts in the bible don't add up (historically and with themselves), but lately I don't know if God excists...

Or does he excist purely in my imagination, because I need to give my life reason? If so, is that a good enough reason? Oh Go... see there's my problem... one of the biggest crises of my life and I don't know where to turn.

I'm not an evolutionist, purely because my high school science teacher couldn't explain how a physical mutation becomes a genetic trait, so what do I believe in?

And without God, should I still continue to practice an empty faith? I need answers and I need them soon.

I don't know if the rest of you understand, but for a Catholic this is a big thing. We are taught all our lives that Church is always right, it is the voice of God, don't question, etc... but I don't buy it.... I can't...

Yeah, I can relate to that. I'm totally anti-organised religion now.

I was brought up a Catholic.. but you quickly come to a very real realization sooner or later. If there is a God there are a few things you can't get around.. 1) God must be weak.. because if God was really so powerful he/she/it could stop evil in the world and yet doesn't.. 2) God is not weak and allows evil because he/she/it is an egomaniac and refuses to stop it out of some belief he/she/it is right.. or 3) He/she/it is indifferent and really doesn't give a flying f*ck about you..

Thus, I'm an atheist now..

I'm not an evolutionist, purely because my high school science teacher couldn't explain how a physical mutation becomes a genetic trait

You must have had a crap science teacher, then.
Or not have been interested enough in the answer to try to find it out yourself.

Where I come from, we call that the "Do my homework for me" technique, or "If I don't understand it, and the first generalist I ask about a specific point can't explain it to me, it must be wrong."

I was brought up a Catholic.. but you quickly come to a very real realization sooner or later. If there is a God there are a few things you can't get around.. 1) God must be weak.. because if God was really so powerful he/she/it could stop evil in the world and yet doesn't.. 2) God is not weak and allows evil because he/she/it is an egomaniac and refuses to stop it out of some belief he/she/it is right.. or 3) He/she/it is indifferent and really doesn't give a flying f*ck about you..

Thus, I'm an atheist now..

Unless, of course, evil is supposed to exist...

this is why the church teaches you not to question and think.

sadly, the catholics are not as good at the brainwashing as the baptists or methodists or the rest

My personal belief is that all religions are, pretty much, figments of peoples imaginations, like you said. Their Gods and their Miracles and Proof are all in their heads, but I believe it is their own perception of religion that makes that religion real for them. If you believe in a Christian God, then for you, that God is real. Think about it. What do people need God for? Something to believe in. A source of hope and love. Eternal acceptance. Miracles happen, and those get acredited to a God. God works for those who choose to believe.

But if you don't believe in a God, like moi, then there is no real God. The world I live in, that I perceive with my own mind, has no God. God doesn't exist. I don't need one, so there is none.

I suggest you do what I did when I realized the Christian faith I had been raised on and based my life on was less that accurate. Research other faiths. Try to find the one that works best for you. I almost tried Bhuddisim once. And if nothing works, see if atheism or agnosticism work for you. The thing I had trouble with, was it was weird not having a God to pray to when your an atheist. But I started relying on myself instead the God I didn't believe existed, and I couldn't be happier today, because I found something that I could believe was true without a doubt.

There is no god the is no such thin g it is all one false statement to make peoples start war :mp5: you cannot prove there is any god!

It is not like I haven't tried to believe in God. I mean I really tried, but I cannot without denying that voice inside my soul that tells me to think.

Well, what my dad says, you don't need to have a specific religion. It's just good believe in a spirit or a higher power. I honestly some things in the bible are contrdictory too. Like, love your fellow man.......But if you don't have the same beliefs your going to Hell...

There is no god the is no such thin g it is all one false statement to make peoples start war :mp5: you cannot prove there is any god!

But you cannot prove there isn't a God, either. And religion can spread acceptance and help as much as it does war and hatred.

I was brought up a Catholic.. but you quickly come to a very real realization sooner or later. If there is a God there are a few things you can't get around.. 1) God must be weak.. because if God was really so powerful he/she/it could stop evil in the world and yet doesn't.. 2) God is not weak and allows evil because he/she/it is an egomaniac and refuses to stop it out of some belief he/she/it is right.. or 3) He/she/it is indifferent and really doesn't give a flying f*ck about you..

Thus, I'm an atheist now..

For me, God gave us the free will to choose who we want to be in life. We chose. We are now living in the consequences of those choices, whether they be good or bad. God gave us everything we could ever want, but through greed, some people decided to destroy it. Why should It help us out again? We would only waste our chance.

I'm not trying to belittle your beliefs at all, just sharing my philosophy.

Or does he excist purely in my imagination, because I need to give my life reason? If so, is that a good enough reason?

That depends. If an imagined God truly does make you feel that your life has a purpose, then that is all the reason you'll ever need. If God feels like a burden to you, something that weighs you down and makes you feel uneasy, then it might be time to step away.

Of course, no one can make the decision for you except yourself. That's the hardest part about religion.

It is not like I haven't tried to believe in God. I mean I really tried, but I cannot without denying that voice inside my soul that tells me to think.

So appease your soul and don't stop thinking until you are doubtless again.

But you cannot prove there isn't a God, either. And religion can spread acceptance and help as much as it does war and hatred.
OK, seriously, this person needs a little help. There are many religions that don't start wars. And I'm sure the secluded Buddhist monks are just filled with hatred... :rolleyes: Oh, and you can't prove North Dakota exists either. How can you? If you have pictures...They might be of somewhere else. Unless if you're there, you can't prove it exists. That really isn't a great way to think.

But you cannot prove there isn't a God, either. And religion can spread acceptance and help as much as it does war and hatred.
look around the world religions clashing and countries falling there is no good from religion

There is no god the is no such thin g it is all one false statement to make peoples start war :mp5: you cannot prove there is any god!

Athiests can cause just as many problems as any other faith. Humans will always disagree with each other, there's no escaping it. Politics, religion, education... everyone has different opinions, no one is better than the other, all cause conflict and all bring hope to someone.

You must have had a crap science teacher, then.
Or not have been interested enough in the answer to try to find it out yourself.

Where I come from, we call that the "Do my homework for me" technique, or "If I don't understand it, and the first generalist I ask about a specific point can't explain it to me, it must be wrong."
This isn't really that this thread is about. And you're attacking the small fragment that remains of my belief system doesn't help anyone but yourself, but if you must take it that way...

I simply believe evolution has too many holes and I am yet to find anyone who can adequetly explain that perticular (and essential) part of evolution. I personally believe evolution is a convenient alternative to creationalism.

One day I hope we discover a better theory.

But until then, I hope can find a sunstitute for Catholic guilt. Perhaps pop culture will suffice, I am feeling rather fat*.



*Note: This is funny because my Body Fat Index says I'm dangerously underweight.

look around the world religions clashing and countries falling there is no good from religion

Of course not! I mean, my faith in God only kept me from killing myself a year ago... nope, no good from religion AT ALL!

There would be countries falling even if religion never existed. There are other things to complain about and start a war over - humans naturally want to cause conflict, to pull themselves higher by pushing others down.

Everything has bad and good sides.

OK, seriously, this person needs a little help. There are many religions that don't start wars. And I'm sure the secluded Buddhist monks are just filled with hatred... :rolleyes: Oh, and you can't prove North Dakota exists either. How can you? If you have pictures...They might be of somewhere else. Unless if you're there, you can't prove it exists. That really isn't a great way to think.

Exactly, that's what I said. Religions don't just start wars. :rolleyes: And I'm not trying to justify the existance of God - I'm atheist - I just don't think the "You can't prove he exists" arguement is valid. Yes, you can prove North Dakota exists. You can go there and see it. But you can't prove God doesn't exist, because so many different things have been accredited to Him - miracles and what not - and besides, you can't exactly ascend to the heavens and take a polaroid. "Oh, no God. Just clouds." It's unproveable either way, making belief and disbelief equally faithful acts.

For me, God gave us the free will to choose who we want to be in life. We chose. We are now living in the consequences of those choices, whether they be good or bad. God gave us everything we could ever want, but through greed, some people decided to destroy it. Why should It help us out again? We would only waste our chance.

Ah yes, this is certainly one of the oldest biblical stories.. and don't forget why this was done.. according to the bible it was done to prove the devil wrong.. that people would choose to come to God on their own even if given free will.. So if this is true, then we must conclude as I stated in #2 of my above post that God has basically since the beginning of time has been playing cards for our souls with a being (devil) that has to be weaker then he/she/it to prove a point and has allowed suffering since the beginning of time to the creatures he/she/it says it loves the most to prove a point. This is a point of the bible you can't get around.

You need to relax, because questioning your faith is a perfectly normal life stage. I went through the same thing as a young Catholic lad. So did all of my Catholic friends. In the end, after reading and experiencing as much religious and philosophical thought as I could find, I came to the conclusion that I am agnostic, and I've been happily so for almost twenty years.


I need answers and I need them soon.

In the end, only you can provide the answers to your spiritual questions.



I'm not an evolutionist, purely because my high school science teacher couldn't explain how a physical mutation becomes a genetic trait, so what do I believe in?

Your science teacher must have been a submoron. Physical changes don't cause genetic change, generally speaking; instead, genetic mutations manifest themselves physically. I'd suggest that you pick up a few books on the subject. Stephen Jay Gould's Hen's Teeth And Horses Toes and The Panda's Thumb would be good starting points, and should be available at your local library.

here is what i did.

take your bible, read it from front to back. (on your own, ask no opinion from others, maybe even skip mass during this period) by the time you finish you will know what you believe to be the truth.

I decided I couldn't believe in the christian god when i was done, but other people i have known had their faith restored. Your heart will know the difference.

Ah yes, this is certainly one of the oldest biblical stories.. and don't forget why this was done.. according to the bible it was done to prove the devil wrong.. that people would choose to come to God on their own even if given free will.. So if this is true, then we must conclude as I stated in #2 of my above post that God has basically since the beginning of time has been playing cards for our souls with a being (devil) that has to be weaker then he/she/it to prove a point and has allowed suffering since the beginning of time to the creatures he/she/it says it loves the most to prove a point. This is a point of the bible you can't get around.

I don't follow the Bible... frankly, I find too many inconsistencies in it.

I believe God is neither good or bad. It doesn't support us nor oppose us. God created everything... It created good, evil, and the free will to choose which you want to be.

I don't belive that God created us to prove a point. I'm not exactly sure why It created us, only that It did.

Our suffering was caused by us. Our happiness was caused by us. God is just... there. *shrug* This makes sense to me, so I believe it.

here is what i did.

take your bible, read it from front to back. (on your own, ask no opinion from others, maybe even skip mass during this period) by the time you finish you will know what you believe to be the truth.

I decided I couldn't believe in the christian god when i was done, but other people i have known had their faith restored. Your heart will know the difference.
ok first of all the only bible i had i burned because i bid there is no god i dont think there is anything but old men in a room writing these things and have you noticed or even asked yourself if there is a god why isnt it refferd to as she its always reffered to as he

Now most of you are just sitting their thinking "who cares? neither does any thinking person". Well I'm a Catholic, a devout one at that. I observe the sacrements, I say my rosaries, I attend Mass I do the whole nine yards. However I just don't know if I believe in God.

It started off with me questioning Church doctrine, then I noticed that certain dogma contradicts the bible, then accounts in the bible don't add up (historically and with themselves), but lately I don't know if God excists...

Or does he excist purely in my imagination, because I need to give my life reason? If so, is that a good enough reason? Oh Go... see there's my problem... one of the biggest crises of my life and I don't know where to turn.

I'm not an evolutionist, purely because my high school science teacher couldn't explain how a physical mutation becomes a genetic trait, so what do I believe in?

And without God, should I still continue to practice an empty faith? I need answers and I need them soon.

I don't know if the rest of you understand, but for a Catholic this is a big thing. We are taught all our lives that Church is always right, it is the voice of God, don't question, etc... but I don't buy it.... I can't...

So don't buy it. No church is the voice of God, but that says nothing about whether or not God exists.

Seek. Have faith that truth can be found. Those who seek will find. Listen to others who tell you what they have found, or say that they have, and perhaps use this to guide you in your own quest, but do not confuse this with truth. The only way to know truth is to find it for yourself.

God created everything..

Then who/what created god?

Then who/what created god?

God did. ;) Pay attention much?

here is what i did.

take your bible, read it from front to back. (on your own, ask no opinion from others, maybe even skip mass during this period) by the time you finish you will know what you believe to be the truth.

I decided I couldn't believe in the christian god when i was done, but other people i have known had their faith restored. Your heart will know the difference.I've never read the entire thing in one hit, but I have read almos the entire NIV, Old and New King James.

I reached one conclusion, if He does excist. God is one sick, evil, being.

God did. ;) Pay attention much?

hehe sadly I do pay attention..lol life would be so much easier if I didn't ;)

Then who/what created god?

God was just there, born from nothing. They may not always make sense, but I still have faith in my beliefs.

If you don't believe in God... then where did everything else come from? We had to start from something, right?

There are inconsistencies in every belief system. I know that I don't know all the answers, that I'll never know them, but I'm okay with that. I went through about three years of just wondering what the hell I believe in, and I finally found something that makes a little bit of sense to me, but still leaves room for scientific fact and the like. I believe that they can co-exist. It works for me.

If athiesm works for you, that's wonderful. I'm happy for anyone and everyone who has found something that makes sense to them.

ok first of all the only bible i had i burned because i bid there is no god i dont think there is anything but old men in a room writing these things and have you noticed or even asked yourself if there is a god why isnt it refferd to as she its always reffered to as he

what did my comment have to do with you? you have already decided. It is obvious you still have issues, move on.

If you don't believe in God... then where did everything else come from? We had to start from something, right?

That doesn't make sense unless you want/believe it to.

I've never read the entire thing in one hit, but I have read almos the entire NIV, Old and New King James.

I reached one conclusion, if He does excist. God is one sick, evil, being.

then you may have just answered your own question.

I felt it was important to read it straight thru, the way any book is ment to be read & that no religion wants it to be.

That doesn't make sense unless you want/believe it to.

Exactly. We can't prove it, it just depends on what you believe in. Not everything has to make sense in order to be true; not everything that makes sense is true. What it comes down to is what you believe in, so it's different for every person.

That doesn't make sense unless you want/believe it to.

Then why believe that a God would have had to come from somewhere? No matter where you believe the universe came from, someone can always say "but what was before that?"

Then why believe that a God would have had to come from somewhere? No matter where you believe the universe came from, someone can always say "but what was before that?"

please remember that time does not exist, it is something that we made up to suit our needs.

sound familiar?

Then why believe that a God would have had to come from somewhere? No matter where you believe the universe came from, someone can always say "but what was before that?"

That's the thing, I don't believe.. I'm an atheist.. ;)

That's the thing, I don't believe.. I'm an atheist.. ;)

You don't believe in anything? You don't believe in science or love or anything like that? You have absolutely no theories as to how we got here, or where we're going?

Just because you don't believe in a god doesn't mean that you aren't allowed to believe anything else. All of reality is based on our perceptions, and whether or not we believe those perceptions.

God chooses not to interfere wholly in the affairs of man as a test to see who is truly faithful. If you are loyal to God, even in the face of doubt, it only shows that you were faithful, and thus, on the Day of Reckoning, you will acsend into heaven, and live in peace with God.

Of course, I don't really think any of you are going to buy this, but to me it makes some sense.

Just my two cents.

That's the thing, I don't believe.. I'm an atheist.. ;)

You're missing the point: assuming you have an answer to the question "where did the universe come from?" then the next question is "where did THAT come from?" IOW, asking who created God is simply not an effective rebuttal because it can be just as easily applied to any other theory of universal origin.

God chooses not to interfere wholly in the affairs of man as a test to see who is truly faithful. If you are loyal to God, even in the face of doubt, it only shows that you were faithful, and thus, on the Day of Reckoning, you will acsend into heaven, and live in peace with God.

Of course, I don't really think any of you are going to buy this, but to me it makes some sense.

Just my two cents.

the problem with that (as I see it) is that in a sense god is testing his childrens love, but I know of no decent parent that does this. and If we are indeed his children he is one piss-poor parent.

but thats just me
:fluffle:

Then why believe that a God would have had to come from somewhere? No matter where you believe the universe came from, someone can always say "but what was before that?"

This is where many people would disagree with me. My belief teaches that God always was, always is, and always will be. God did not start, and he will not end. God is forever.

Unless you're an aethist, in which you don't care about any of this religious philosophical stuff.

You don't believe in anything? You don't believe in science or love or anything like that? You have absolutely no theories as to how we got here, or where we're going?

Of course I believe in Science, it's tangible. Do I sit and question about how we got here, if there is a reason? Not any more, perhaps in my early 20's I did. I came to the grand conclusion that it really doesn't matter. I don't spend my valuable time worrying about where I might of came from nor where I might be going. All I know for sure is I have this one life, I don't know how long it will last, so I try to make the most of it. It's all any of us know for sure.

the problem with that (as I see it) is that in a sense god is testing his childrens love, but I know of no decent parent that does this. and If we are indeed his children he is one piss-poor parent.

but thats just me
:fluffle:

God gives us all a chance. If we do not love God, and do not wish to be with him, then you will not go to heaven. Think of it this way: he doesn't want to put us where we don't want to be when it is time for our eternal rest.

I think that makes four cents.

The fact that "God" is male in virtually all (if not all) monotheistic religions is enough proof for me to say that it's a fallacy.

Of course I believe in Science, it's tangible. Do I sit and question about how we got here, if there is a reason? Not any more, perhaps in my early 20's I did. I came to the grand conclusion that it really doesn't matter. I don't spend my valuable time worrying about where I might of came from nor where I might be going. All I know for sure is I have this one life, I don't know how long it will last, so I try to make the most of it. It's all any of us know for sure.

I'm not an aethist, so I don't know where you're coming from, but just by looking at that it makes a lot of sense. Kudos :)

The fact that "God" is male in virtually all (if not all) monotheistic religions is enough proof for me to say that it's a fallacy.

We only use "he" and "him" because his son Jesus was male, and we are taught that the son, the father, and the Holy Spirit are all three parts of the same thing. Its just easier.

Of course I believe in Science, it's tangible. Do I sit and question about how we got here, if there is a reason? Not any more, perhaps in my early 20's I did. I came to the grand conclusion that it really doesn't matter. I don't spend my valuable time worrying about where I might of came from nor where I might be going. All I know for sure is I have this one life, I don't know how long it will last, so I try to make the most of it. It's all any of us know for sure.

That's a belief. ^_~ (I was just trying to prove that everyone has beliefs, even the belief to not believe, because you said that you didn't believe)

And I also believe that we don't know how we got here and we never will, and that we should just make the most of it. I just also happen to believe that there is some higher power out there who started it all.

Now most of you are just sitting their thinking "who cares? neither does any thinking person". Well I'm a Catholic, a devout one at that. I observe the sacrements, I say my rosaries, I attend Mass I do the whole nine yards. However I just don't know if I believe in God.

It started off with me questioning Church doctrine, then I noticed that certain dogma contradicts the bible, then accounts in the bible don't add up (historically and with themselves), but lately I don't know if God excists...

Or does he excist purely in my imagination, because I need to give my life reason? If so, is that a good enough reason? Oh Go... see there's my problem... one of the biggest crises of my life and I don't know where to turn.

I'm not an evolutionist, purely because my high school science teacher couldn't explain how a physical mutation becomes a genetic trait, so what do I believe in?

And without God, should I still continue to practice an empty faith? I need answers and I need them soon.

I don't know if the rest of you understand, but for a Catholic this is a big thing. We are taught all our lives that Church is always right, it is the voice of God, don't question, etc... but I don't buy it.... I can't...

Spirituality has been studied scientifically and it appears to be hard-wired into the human nervous system in some way. Apparently groups of early man which held religious practices in common had a higher survival rate than groups which did not, perhaps due to a greater bond between group members because of their commitment to the same religion.

Evolution is a "theory" which has been borne out in fact so many times that most scientists no longer refer to it as a theory. What about your science teacher's explanations do you not understand?

That's a belief. ^_~ (I was just trying to prove that everyone has beliefs, even the belief to not believe, because you said that you didn't believe)

No offence but "duh" of course every one has beliefs.. that has nothing to do with god.. I also believe the sun will rise tomorrow.. I'm not chicken little and don't believe the sky is falling.. again, it has nothing to do with god.

No offence but "duh" of course every one has beliefs.. that has nothing to do with god.. I also believe the sun will rise tomorrow.. I'm not chicken little and don't believe the sky is falling.. again, it has nothing to do with god.

I know it doesn't always have to have anything to do with God, I'm just saying that everyone has beliefs because you said, quite plainly, "I don't believe."

Sorry for the confusion.

You can bet your bottom dollar there'll be sun.

The reason most monotheistic religions refer to the divine as he is because many come from patriarchal cultures. Therefore it would be unthinkable to them for the divine to be female and, it also makes it easier to treat women as lesser to male. Many such traditions hve been twisted by such beliefs. Again, it's not the belief that's bad it's the person who practices it in a twisted and, extremist manner.

Anyway, back on topic, I personally found it helpful to look around other faiths that suited me since I believe that all paths in life lead to the same place. Look for a belief system that suits you. In the end I chose to become Pagan with a mixture of Wiccan, Buddhist, Taoist and, Shintoist beliefs. That suits me fine but it may not suit someone else. As has been said before search for the truth and, your own path in life.

I was brought up a Catholic.. but you quickly come to a very real realization sooner or later. If there is a God there are a few things you can't get around.. 1) God must be weak.. because if God was really so powerful he/she/it could stop evil in the world and yet doesn't.. 2) God is not weak and allows evil because he/she/it is an egomaniac and refuses to stop it out of some belief he/she/it is right.. or 3) He/she/it is indifferent and really doesn't give a flying f*ck about you..

Thus, I'm an atheist now..

In case you were wondering, Jewish scriptures mention the concept of God allowing such evil to go on because those who are evil in this world can only be evil 120 years or so, then after they die for the rest of eternity they will be punished.

Now most of you are just sitting their thinking "who cares? neither does any thinking person". Well I'm a Catholic, a devout one at that. I observe the sacrements, I say my rosaries, I attend Mass I do the whole nine yards. However I just don't know if I believe in God.

It started off with me questioning Church doctrine, then I noticed that certain dogma contradicts the bible, then accounts in the bible don't add up (historically and with themselves), but lately I don't know if God excists...

Or does he excist purely in my imagination, because I need to give my life reason? If so, is that a good enough reason? Oh Go... see there's my problem... one of the biggest crises of my life and I don't know where to turn.

I'm not an evolutionist, purely because my high school science teacher couldn't explain how a physical mutation becomes a genetic trait, so what do I believe in?

And without God, should I still continue to practice an empty faith? I need answers and I need them soon.

I don't know if the rest of you understand, but for a Catholic this is a big thing. We are taught all our lives that Church is always right, it is the voice of God, don't question, etc... but I don't buy it.... I can't...

you have 2 sperate problems eh? one is a doubt about god, the other is a doubt about the catholic church.

lets look at them seperately

****quick disclaimer: i am a catholic atheist*****


first of all GOD.

it seems to me that everyone has questions about the existance of god sometime in their youth. the truth is that when we are kids we are taught all sorts of ridiculous things about god, both by the church and by our parents. just WHAT is taught varies from family to family but some parents make god a kind of celetial santa claus. or worse yet a celestial J edgar hoover, up there watching you constantly to see if you are misbeahving.

you need to sort out GOD from the control mechanisms of society. this can lead you to waver in your faith. its not a bad thing and it doesnt mean that you will end up faithless. its as much a phase of life as it is when a 2 year old starts saying NO to everything. if you do the hard work of figuring out just what you DO believe about god, you will come to a better more lasting more mature faith than what you had when you were an unquestioning child.

these mature sophisticated beliefs exist within the catholic church. after all it has 2000 years of the most deep religious thinkers to call from. perhaps you should start with st francis and st claire (they were friends eh?) its not the most sophisticated faith but it is very beautiful.

anyway your relationship to god is like your relationship to anyone else; it has its good days and its bad days. ive READ that if you keep the forms of faith in the hard times, the belief will come back to you. it certainly seems to me that that could be true. dont give up religion just because you are called on to do some hard work to keep your faith. just do the work and see what happens.

ok now the catholic church

first of all, EVERY BIT OF DOGMA in the catholic church has a basis somewhere. its all been thought out and justified. you have 2000 years of big thinking making sure it all hangs together.

make sure that the stuff you are objecting to is in fact part of the church and not an error on the part of your parents or your local priest.

now, as our prostestant brothers might remind us, there are other interpretations of the bible that do not agree with that same catholic dogma. they are not wrong in this. lets say that again, THEY ARE NOT WRONG. its a matter of emphasis and interpretation. except for some nutcase cults that have obviously wandered far from the common christian fold, the other denominations are as correct in their interpretation of the bible as "we" are.

so what does that mean? to me it means, read the bible. especially the gospels. read them again. then think about what faith in jesus means. what was he really saying? what did he really seem to want from us? how would YOU best follow those teachings? give it some thought and prayer

the first thing youll notice is that no church is really following the bare teachings of jesus. they have ALL picked through different passages to justify how they have decided to live. there are NO exceptions. (although a friend of mine was very impressed with the quakers on this point) so if you want to be a christian in an established denomination, you have to figure out what one best fits your vision of what jesus wanted from us.

so you have to decide if the catholic church FITS you. personally i think the catholic church is the best because it gives you so many ways to exercise your religion. to me, protestant churchs are too austere. too plain. for many people the catholic church is too ostentatious. it has too many rituals that have no basis in the bible. only you can decide if the church supports your faith or destroys it. what is good for one person just doesnt work for another.

again, its a matter of doing your homework. it can be hard work, especially for a young person. take your time, it doesnt have to be decided now. one of my catholic cousins became a baptist minister after age 40. its never too late to clarify your beliefs. if it seriously bothers you, you NEED to get this work done.

The reason most monotheistic religions refer to the divine as he is because many come from patriarchal cultures. Therefore it would be unthinkable to them for the divine to be female and, it also makes it easier to treat women as lesser to male. Many such traditions hve been twisted by such beliefs. Again, it's not the belief that's bad it's the person who practices it in a twisted and, extremist manner.

Anyway, back on topic, I personally found it helpful to look around other faiths that suited me since I believe that all paths in life lead to the same place. Look for a belief system that suits you. In the end I chose to become Pagan with a mixture of Wiccan, Buddhist, Taoist and, Shintoist beliefs. That suits me fine but it may not suit someone else. As has been said before search for the truth and, your own path in life.

A kind of "do it yourself" approach to religion? Takes a considerable amount of research to do well. May I ask how you settled on that particular combination of beliefs? Just curious. :)

BTW ... you might find this site of interest: http://origin.org/ucs/ws/ws.cfm

A kind of "do it yourself" approach to religion? Takes a considerable amount of research to do well. May I ask how you settled on that particular combination of beliefs? Just curious. :)

BTW ... you might find this site of interest: http://origin.org/ucs/ws/ws.cfm
*shrug* They just evolve slowly and, they keep on evloving. The more I learn, the more my beliefs evolve. Though the base is always the same. I'm naturally curious so I keep on looking on in what interests me at the moment until I feel satisfied thatI've found the answer to my current quiestions. I also do a heck of a lot of contemplation and, introspection. My closest friends all say I'm pretty deep.

Rene Descarte wrote alot about the existence of God in his philosophies and about his the reality of his own existence - he's famous for the "I think therefore I am" quote. You might want to read some of that, it isn't for everyone, but he draws on some interesting conclusions.

Do not reject the possiblity outright; consider agnosticism . . . (oh great, now I'm preaching; somebody stop me!)

I'm just gonna throw my two cents in here.

Rotovia, I had a time where God just didn't make sense to me either, and I spent acouple of years looking back over the bible and everything I learned in church and came away even more confused.

Then I took a course in theology in college and read from the guy I quote in my sig. His ideas were related to why people couldn't understand God, and he basically came to the conclusion that humans souldn't because we are physical by nature, and are only given to what is in pur nature. Thus man doesn't understand God because God is simply beyond him.

I took this a little further and looked back thru the bible and church, and came to the conclusion that what was wrong was that God gave a great idea to people, but screwed it up because we can't truly understand matters that are beyond our time on Earth and the physical world. So now I've given up on most organized religion pending one that isn't mired in petty squabbles over which passage in the holy scripture is right or wrong. It also reflects my view on the bible, which is that humans wrote it, even if it was divinely inspired, so of course it's contradictory.

My personal belief now, which is still somewhat in flux, is that there is a something beyond what I understand that watches us and occasionally offers guidance, but sometimes it's difficult to tell when that happens.

Just my two cents. ;)

I was brought up a Catholic.. but you quickly come to a very real realization sooner or later. If there is a God there are a few things you can't get around.. 1) God must be weak.. because if God was really so powerful he/she/it could stop evil in the world and yet doesn't.. 2) God is not weak and allows evil because he/she/it is an egomaniac and refuses to stop it out of some belief he/she/it is right.. or 3) He/she/it is indifferent and really doesn't give a flying f*ck about you..

Thus, I'm an atheist now..


look dude God wants you to come to him like a man..a man has free choice..God doesn't want you as a lap-dog ..he wants you to make a free decision to follow him...you are weak if you need a god who drags you to him...faith is what is all about...

the evils in this world are created by weak men ..men who cant believe in anything..God has to give them the choice to do evil just like he gives you the choice to do good...

god doesnt cause a plane to crash.. human error causes a plane to crash...
all this is explained in Job.. if you had trully researched the religion you were brought up in the answers are there...open your eyes...

besides you dont sound like a person without believe in something ...just a person who hates something....and why do you hate something that isn't in your eyes "real"?

There is no free decision involved with the Christian God. You either do what God commands or you burn in hell forever. That's not a free choice, that's like a thirsty man choosing between a refreshing coke or a bottle of battery acid. You're forced to choose the other or perish.

There is no free decision involved with the Christian God. You either do what God commands or you burn in hell forever. That's not a free choice, that's like a thirsty man choosing between a refreshing coke or a bottle of battery acid. You're forced to choose the other or perish.

well if your thirsty it is your choice what to drink or to not drink at all...you are free to choose...why do you hate having to choose whether to drink and live or not drink and die...thats just the way life is...doesnt sound like a hard choice...but it does sound like you can make the choice whichever way you like... so there is freedom in that

"No one can come to me but he whom the Father has sent."
- Jesus Christ

...there's no choice at all, it seems.

look around the world religions clashing and countries falling there is no good from religion

look around the world politics clashing and countries falling there is no good from politics.

Or?

Hi,

I'm sorry, I just have to comment on a tangent here.

The "where did god come from" question is not meaningless.

Whoever said that you can ask that in infinite regression was correct. We can say:

Universe <- God <- Supergod <-Superdupergod...etc.

This leaves two choices: either somewhere along the line, something "just is", or there really is an infinite amount of divine "Creators" all the way back.

Focussing in on "just is" -- we have a couple of options here.

One is that the object in question extends infinitely through time: God, Supergod, or an infinite universe fits this. In this case, it is not true that "everything has to come from something" -- which is itself a strange assumption that we have no real basis for, since we have never "created" anything, ever, just changed things, and so it would be better to say that "everything has to be changed from something else". This implies that if God exists, we are components of this God, or else this obeservation does not hold true and so is inadmissable.

Another is that time is circular. This makes the existence of God unlikely, if true.

A third is that time itself "folds over", time doesn't go infinitely back, back a time machine going backwards would never arrive.

Rule one and three are open to, but do not require, the existence of God.

So what is the importance of this?

Occam's razor -- often misquoted, it is properly "do not multiply entities needlessly".

The simplest answer here, is to cut it off at the Universe. Therefore, the universe exists of its own accord, without God. Every layer of God seems less and less likely.

Recall, however, that Occam's razor is by no means absolute. It is only absolute when you know all relevant facts. Since we are unaware of whether an afterlife exists, and of course other factors as well, then we cannot say for sure no God exists.

Can we tell I'm agnostic? It's also late, I hope I typed understandably. I'm also atheist, but that is the only real argument for or against God's existence that I have ever found (others only challenge whether a perfectly good God exists, or a trinitarian god exists, etc.). Admittedly, it is not strong.

That said, this is your choice, my philosophy is "think for yourself" -- don't let our "arguments" influence you overmuch, just decide for yourself what you believe in.

'Belief in God' is the relationship you build with what's in your heart. Organized religion is window-dressing. If the religion is distressing you with its inconsistencies, seek God elsewhere. Build a new relationship.

I reached one conclusion, if He does excist. God is one sick, evil, being.
Thing is, if He really does exist, He might be. I know that I have always wanted to have omniscience and omnipotence, and I imagine I'd abuse it to the best of my ability. And there's obviously something wrong with that morally, of course. But, if it's true, there isn't a thing you can do about it. If you truly believe "lol oh if god existed why he does let evil and people die and lololol," then that's your problem, 'cause if he does exist, then you've got a crazy despot God. And that may truly be possible.

I personally believe in God. I am an Agnostic Presbyterian Christian. I do not truly believe there is a sure-fire way of proving God's existence without being one, making me Agnostic. All I do is give him the benefit of the doubt (tell me if I used that saying completely wrong, I think I did).

'Thing about Occam's Razor, it does not make room for the fact that one of two options is not compatible with the other and thusly, only one can be true. It just means to ignore something you can do without, yes? You can't do without God unless he truly doesn't exist. And that's not an argument against a particular choice, that's an argument against saying that Atheism has to be true 'cause it's simpler. 'Fact, I disagree with anyone who says any religion has to be true. That's why I think we should screw off with talking about it.