NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041015/NEWS01/410150366/1002

A 17-member Army Reserve platoon with troops from Jackson and around the Southeast deployed to Iraq is under arrest for refusing a "suicide mission" to deliver fuel, the troops' relatives said Thursday.

The soldiers refused an order on Wednesday to go to Taji, Iraq — north of Baghdad — because their vehicles were considered "deadlined" or extremely unsafe, said Patricia McCook of Jackson, wife of Sgt. Larry O. McCook.

These guys are facing strict punishment for not obeying orders for this mission. I know I wouldn't go into Iraq in vehicles considered extremely unsafe.

The platoon could be charged with the willful disobeying of orders, punishable by dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of pay and up to five years confinement, said military law expert Mark Stevens, an associate professor of justice studies at Wesleyan College in Rocky Mount, N.C.

The platoon is normally escorted by armed Humvees and helicopters, but did not have that support Wednesday, McClenny told her mother.

The convoy trucks the platoon was driving had experienced problems in the past and were not being properly maintained, Hill said her daughter told her.

"He told me that three of the vehicles they were to use were deadlines ... not safe to go in a hotbed like that," Patricia McCook said.

Hill said the trucks her daughter's unit was driving could not top 40 mph.

I can't be the only one who would disobey an order like that. That's just a completely and totally crazy mission. They may need to get those supplies as fast as possible to the lines up there, but you can bet I wouldn't go without proper support and equipment. Thoughts?

Well, fuel is a necessity, although, if I wer ein their shoes, I would certainly make a stand. Even though fuel is needed, so is protection for the transports carrying it. After all, fuel isn't going to help combat units of the logistic units carrying them are broke down on the side of the road...or even worse, target practice.

Evaluation:

Not transporting much needed fuel: Bad

Not doing so with chances of breaking down, or become a screaming hulk of burning, bullet riddled flesh: Smart

Not giving transports much needed protection: Eesh, how can they "protect us" when they can't even protect themselves?

(No offence to any service-men or women)

By the way, I live about an hour out of Jackson, where those soldiers came from...this does kind of hit home. But, no countrymen or servicemen should should be ashamed of not getting themselves killed for such a piss-poor decision.

Yeah, fuel and water are necessary, but we shouldn't just send them into dangerous zones without proper vehicles or protection.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Ya and now someone tell me why soldiers who "just follow orders" are considered bad when the alternative is draconian punishment like this, even for disobeying as obviously suicidal missions such as this...

These guys are facing strict punishment for not obeying orders for this mission. I know I wouldn't go into Iraq in vehicles considered extremely unsafe.

but considered extremely unsafe by whom? the military or the soldiers?

How did these vehicles get in such bad shape?

I always thought that if you had military equipment, you had to work on it. I think that old saying was, "you must take care of the horse before oneself". I don't know, different Army, different times, I guess.

Let those who decide to discharge them be the ones to drive that tanker...no?

Well, fuel is a necessity, although, if I wer ein their shoes, I would certainly make a stand. Even though fuel is needed, so is protection for the transports carrying it. After all, fuel isn't going to help combat units of the logistic units carrying them are broke down on the side of the road...or even worse, target practice.

Evaluation:

Not transporting much needed fuel: Bad

Not doing so with chances of breaking down, or become a screaming hulk of burning, bullet riddled flesh: Smart

Not giving transports much needed protection: Eesh, how can they "protect us" when they can't even protect themselves?

(No offence to any service-men or women)

By the way, I live about an hour out of Jackson, where those soldiers came from...this does kind of hit home. But, no countrymen or servicemen should should be ashamed of not getting themselves killed for such a piss-poor decision.
Here's the thing about the fuel--it was jet fuel contaminated with diesel, completely unusable, and had already been refused by another base. At the very least, the fuel part of the mission was, according to reports, retarded. I don't blame them for refusing to go.

American soldiers are unwilling to go on suicide missions.
Arab soldiers are.

ONe more reason we should not be in iraq.

we treat our national guard like dirt.

That's terrible! These men and women are putting their asses on the line for the US, and this is how they are treated when they don't want to do something without the proper equipment and necessary protection when they are in a danger zone...

The Reserves, what a joke. A bunch of weekend warriors want to play soldier, but they can't hack it when it comes to danger. And so many of them wonder why they don't get the same respect as the rest of the guys.

The Reserves, what a joke. A bunch of weekend warriors want to play soldier, but they can't hack it when it comes to danger. And so many of them wonder why they don't get the same respect as the rest of the guys.

hehe...ooh, that's mean. :p


I guess we should just draft then instead of calling up the Reserves?

Being a mechanic in the Marine Corps, I totally sympathize with the platoon here and can say they absolutely did the right thing, and frankly I hope whatever officers are in charge of them are themselves brought up on charges for needlessly endangering troops and not maintaining equipment. Fuel and water may have been badly needed, but it is the officers' duty to make sure equipment is up to date and maintained so that missions can be accomplished. Its not simply a matter of "Suck it up and go."

I wish them good luck and hope this gets out enough to get them off scott free, and I hope whoever was supposed to be in charge of that unit is court martialed to the fullest extent.

The Reserves, what a joke. A bunch of weekend warriors want to play soldier, but they can't hack it when it comes to danger. And so many of them wonder why they don't get the same respect as the rest of the guys.


And you my idiotic friend are lucky this is a board and not an actual, physical meeting place for a comment like that. Enjoy sitting on your ass in an armchair.

I didnt read the article.
I do know what a Deadline vehicle is though.
First of all if these are fuel trucks then you are talking big trucks.
I am a truck driver, and I know that a driver gets attached to his vehicle once he gets to know it.
You dont have your vehicle get inspected with a potential Deadliner unless you truly believe the vehicle will be unsafe/undrivable if not repaired.
If the motorpool or who ever is in charge of Dealining the trucks say they DeadLine, they should not be driven.
When I saw the title of the thread I was fully prepared to call these guys cowards.
However, the entire purpose of a vehicle inspection like that is to afford the driver every possible oppertunity to survive, with in reasonable expectation.
A reasonble expectation of our military is for them to provide our soldiers the correct equiptment to obtain their mission objective. With the damamged trucks there is no reasonble expectation these men would complete their mission.

Technically speaking a Deadline vehicle is not to be driven--their defense can argue they were following a higher order then direct commanding officer, as Military SOP would have them stand down for proper equipment.
If the fuel need was urgent they would redirect a fuel truck/trucks from another area.

I agree that in this circumstance I would refuse a direct order.

Fags.


I used to be in a minesweeping squadron.

Even when you practiced, still a big chance of dying.

SO: to those “soldiers”: STFU KTHX

Fags.


I used to be in a minesweeping squadron.

Even when you practiced, still a big chance of dying.

SO: to those “soldiers”: STFU KTHX
Army?

I didnt read the article.
I do know what a Deadline vehicle is though.
First of all if these are fuel trucks then you are talking big trucks.
I am a truck driver, and I know that a driver gets attached to his vehicle once he gets to know it.
You dont have your vehicle get inspected with a potential Deadliner unless you truly believe the vehicle will be unsafe/undrivable if not repaired.
If the motorpool or who ever is in charge of Dealining the trucks say they DeadLine, they should not be driven.
When I saw the title of the thread I was fully prepared to call these guys cowards.
However, the entire purpose of a vehicle inspection like that is to afford the driver every possible oppertunity to survive, with in reasonable expectation.
A reasonble expectation of our military is for them to provide our soldiers the correct equiptment to obtain their mission objective. With the damamged trucks there is no reasonble expectation these men would complete their mission.

Technically speaking a Deadline vehicle is not to be driven--their defense can argue they were following a higher order then direct commanding officer, as Military SOP would have them stand down for proper equipment.
If the fuel need was urgent they would redirect a fuel truck/trucks from another area.

I agree that in this circumstance I would refuse a direct order.When you factor in that the soldiers said that not only were the trucks deadlined, but that the fuel they were carrying was unusable and that there was apparently no armed escort, I don't blame them one bit for refusing to go. Whoever ordered them to go in those circumstances ought to be beaten severely.

When you factor in that the soldiers said that not only were the trucks deadlined, but that the fuel they were carrying was unusable and that there was apparently no armed escort, I don't blame them one bit for refusing to go. Whoever ordered them to go in those circumstances ought to be beaten severely.


Indeed. Beatings all around for officers. And just because I'm enlisted has nothing to do with that... :rolleyes:

I didnt read the article like I said.
I am just basing it off of what anyone can tell you about a DeadLine vehicle.
First off, a vehicle does not receive a Deadline Designation for miniscule reasons-the most common is an air leak--braking system.

Army?

Nah. the only service. four years with the RN (royal navy)

Fags.


I used to be in a minesweeping squadron.

Even when you practiced, still a big chance of dying.

SO: to those “soldiers”: STFU KTHX
Fags?

What branch of service?
What was your MOS designation.
What was your designated skill level?
Where did you train for that specific MOS?
What was your physical profile?
What was your GM minimum score?
What was your Security Clearance?
What type designation clothing are you required to wear while preforming mission related functions?

If you had the job you say you had you know the answers right off the top of your head.

Nah. the only service. four years with the RN (royal navy)
Gotcha, a Naval minesweeper.

So on these training mission they send out minesweepers with locked steering?
Or non-functioning sonar or magnetics?
Send you out with a catastrophic software failure in the imager?

The trucks didnt work.
You ever go looking for mines in a sinking ship?

I didnt read the article like I said.
I am just basing it off of what anyone can tell you about a DeadLine vehicle.
First off, a vehicle does not receive a Deadline Designation for miniscule reasons-the most common is an air leak--braking system.


Actually with some of the trucks even that doesn't deadline them. Usually a truck is deadlined if it doesn't start or an axle could fall off, in other words if it simply can't run, period. So if a truck is deadlined, it means it is very literally DEAD.

Fags?

What branch of service?
What was your MOS designation.
What was your designated skill level?
Where did you train for that specific MOS?
What was your physical profile?
What was your GM minimum score?
What was your Security Clearance?
What type designation clothing are you required to wear while preforming mission related functions?

If you had the job you say you had you know the answers right off the top of your head.

look I can't do this one by one, cos WTF is MOS.

But Branch: Navy
"skill level" Killick
Trained at Faslane/Squadron for I guess "MOS" I assume you mean rating. B/f HMS Raleigh: (Seamanship)
Physical Profile: ok I guess
GM Score: WTF
security clearance: Restricted, I suppose, maybe confidential, I didn;t need to know.
Clothing: Number 8 working dress usually, 'cept we'd use fearnought and tank suits for sweepdeck duty when needed.

SO: STFU KTHX; PUSSY

Brakes deadline a truck pEng, because they will cathc fire if true to roll with them locked(airbrakes lock up when they fail).
You dont want your wheels catching fire on a fuel truck.
No matter though you truly correct-it takes a lot to deadline a truck.

Gotcha, a Naval minesweeper.

So on these training mission they send out minesweepers with locked steering?
Or non-functioning sonar or magnetics?
Send you out with a catastrophic software failure in the imager?

The trucks didnt work.
You ever go looking for mines in a sinking ship?


look up deep armed team sweeping. very dangerous. two or three boats joined by sweep wire loaded with explosive cutters. bad scene. I would guess over the cold war prolly a lot of casualties. saw four myself. didn't mean I mutinied tho.

Brakes deadline a truck pEng, because they will cathc fire if true to roll with them locked(airbrakes lock up when they fail).
You dont want your wheels catching fire on a fuel truck.
No matter though you truly correct-it takes a lot to deadline a truck.


Except you can disable them from locking up in an LVS so the truck can go on a convoy and stop using other means (go slow, swerve, etc) or just jury rig a system up. Beleive me I know about all this shit, having done it quite a lot :-D

That having been said, it shows how much it really does take to deadline something.

look up deep armed team sweeping. very dangerous. two or three boats joined by sweep wire loaded with explosive cutters. bad scene. I would guess over the cold war prolly a lot of casualties. saw four myself. didn't mean I mutinied tho.


Did you ever sweep with one of your boats sinking? Or it wouldn't start? Or it was on fire?

look I can't do this one by one, cos WTF is MOS.

But Branch: Navy
"skill level" Killick
Trained at Faslane/Squadron for I guess "MOS" I assume you mean rating. B/f HMS Raleigh: (Seamanship)
Physical Profile: ok I guess
GM Score: WTF
security clearance: Restricted, I suppose, maybe confidential, I didn;t need to know.
Clothing: Number 8 working dress usually, 'cept we'd use fearnought and tank suits for sweepdeck duty when needed.

SO: STFU KTHX; PUSSY
First, Deacon they are United States military terms-so the fact you even attempted to answer after claiming you were in the Royal Navy makes me laugh.
Second, Physical profile is a designated number(even in the Brittish military, at least in the Army, and every soldier knows what he is rated.)
Third, if you had a clearance: you would again know it.
I call bullsh*t on your little navy story.
Talk all want though, freakin cabin boy.

First, Deacon they are United States military terms-so the fact you even attempted to answer after claiming you were in the Royal Navy makes me laugh.
Second, Physical profile is a designated number(even in the Brittish military, at least in the Army, and every soldier knows what he is rated.)
Third, if you had a clearance: you would again know it.
I call bullsh*t on your little navy story.
Talk all want though, freakin cabin boy.


Umm... he's a Brit. They have different standards and measurements and such. If you asked the Brit equivalent to all that, he'd probably be able to answer.

Did you ever sweep with one of your boats sinking? Or it wouldn't start? Or it was on fire?


"Boats": Nah dude they were all ships.

Well I was on ex outside of the narvik peninusula when one of the squadron's "boats" lost an engine and the doggo killed three seamen. Does that count?

Mind you no-one got time off for grief.

"Boats": Nah dude they were all ships.

Well I was on ex outside of the narvik peninusula when one of the squadron's "boats" lost an engine and the doggo killed three seamen. Does that count?

Mind you no-one got time off for grief.

Not really. Did you ever go out on a combat mission with one of your ships sinking or the engine not working, from the start of the mission? As in, you get on the boat, and its sinking, but they make you go out anyway? Or the rudder is falling off or the engine doesn't work but they make you go out anyway?

First, Deacon they are United States military terms-so the fact you even attempted to answer after claiming you were in the Royal Navy makes me laugh.
Second, Physical profile is a designated number(even in the Brittish military, at least in the Army, and every soldier knows what he is rated.)
Third, if you had a clearance: you would again know it.
I call bullsh*t on your little navy story.
Talk all want though, freakin cabin boy.


I thought I made it quite clear in earlier posts that I was RN so WTF.

I attempted to answer your questions as I thought would fit that’s all.

BTW what is MOS, or are you just an asshole

Suicide missions are bad. Why are we in Iraq again? I forget.

Suicide missions are bad. Why are we in Iraq again? I forget.


Because they were a threat, they were supporting terrorists, everyone though they had WMD which in the hands of those terrorists would have been bad, and Sadamm was an asshole who starved and made life hell for kids because their parents grew up in the wrong part of the country.

Not really. Did you ever go out on a combat mission with one of your ships sinking or the engine not working, from the start of the mission? As in, you get on the boat, and its sinking, but they make you go out anyway? Or the rudder is falling off or the engine doesn't work but they make you go out anyway?

No you win, I was never in combat with shit equipment. But it was always made abundantly clear to us that if you ever, ever did not follow an order you would literally be shot on the spot. And I did see people die in training and there was a lot of bitching but we were told just to carry on or face the consequences.

But the equipment we had at the time was crap, and we were told that is what it is.

Ahhh peng your right its late. Sorry Deacon, just being a pisser.
He is a cabin boy anyway dont know anything military service, just sunning on a boat and ferry boating Royal Marines to work.

Because they were a threat, they were supporting terrorists, everyone though they had WMD which in the hands of those terrorists would have been bad, and Sadamm was an asshole who starved and made life hell for kids because their parents grew up in the wrong part of the country.


Hey peng. I take it all back, I remeber you now from other post here. You've been in live combat and you have every right to say I don't know sh*t.

I just get pissed of when people assume I don't know shit about being in the armed forces.

Hey peng. I take it all back, I remeber you now from other post here. You've been in live combat and you have every right to say I don't know sh*t.

I just get pissed of when people assume I don't know shit about being in the armed forces.


NP

NP

K I'll STFU KTHX

(and really I'm sorry about being ballsy, you are as the Yanks say "De man")

An order is an order, no matter what. You are to obey orders or face the consequences. Your only right as a soldier is to bitch. I wouldnt like it, but id drive the truck if i had to, but i would take alot more ammo and grenades.

An order is an order, no matter what. You are to obey orders or face the consequences. Your only right as a soldier is to bitch. I wouldnt like it, but id drive the truck if i had to, but i would take alot more ammo and grenades.

Not neccisarily. I was in ROTC for some time, and an officer cannot give you a bad order and then force you to follow it.

That's what this case is. Fault is in the officers.

An order is an order, no matter what. You are to obey orders or face the consequences. Your only right as a soldier is to bitch. I wouldnt like it, but id drive the truck if i had to, but i would take alot more ammo and grenades.


Yeah but see the truck is deadlined. Meaning it shouldn't even be turned on, let alone driven through a combat zone.

And an order is not an order. An order is generally something an officer gives that is somewhat unrealistic that then gets slightly modified by the sargent into something more workable and useful and further modified by the non-NCO's who would rather smoke and bullshit.

An order is an order, no matter what. You are to obey orders or face the consequences. Your only right as a soldier is to bitch. I wouldnt like it, but id drive the truck if i had to, but i would take alot more ammo and grenades.

The claim, "I was only following orders," has been used to justify too many tragedies in our history. The duty of a soldier is to follow orders, as long as those orders make sense.