NationStates Jolt Archive

Reader --
I ask you to make me religious. Make me beleive in a god, I dont care which one. Give me proof, something that can be shown through scientific methods. I want somebody to make me beleive and prove to me that there is a higher being out there.

A few background notes --
I am an Atheist. I was Christian when I was young, before I was old enough to think for myself and realize I dont beleive in a higher being. I am not Atheist because somebody makes me beleive there is no god, I do it of my own free will. Keep this in mind please.

Two defenitions --
Copying these from a dictionary so dont tell me I'm wrong.
Religion -- Any specific system of beleif and worship, often involving a cod of ethics and a philosopy.
Simply stated, atheism is a religion.

Atheism -- The beleif that there is no god, or denial that God or gods exist.
Simply stated, atheists are not morons or witches. We just dont beleive in a God. Also, please dont tell me I'm going to go to hell or anything of a similar nature for it is a useless point that I dont wish to read several times over.

Restrictions --
I dont really want to see anybody even telling me just to open my heart and beleive in a higher being. I want solid facts. Also I would request, though its not nessecary, that you dont give me any links. I dont like reading through them. If you wish to state a point I would prefer it if you stated it here on this thread.
Thats all, so please, convert me!

Read A Case for Christ by Lee Strobel and come back after you finish it. If that book doesn't make you believe in God, other than the Bible, I don't know what will.

Do you have any sort of instant messenger??.. I just might give this a shot.. ;)

Do you have any sort of instant messenger??.. I just might give this a shot..

I do, though I cant access it right now.

ClutePlayer is my AIM SN.

I will be on tomorow though, and whenever else. I'd love for you to convince me.

Read A Case for Christ by Lee Strobel and come back after you finish it. If that book doesn't make you believe in God, other than the Bible, I don't know what will.

I'll see if I can find it and if I can, then I will read it. Thank you.

become religious or go to helll!

AOL be damned!... But I'm getting AIM just for this occasion and, considering I'm a lazy ass, that says a lot ;)

become religious or go to helll!

Ah yes, the Bin Laden approach.. that should get you recruits real fast.. :p

*poof* ... you're religious ...

Now make me a sammich!

Ah yes, the Bin Laden approach.. that should get you recruits real fast.. :p
And the Spanish Conquistador approach works as well: "Convert or we will kill you and go to hell. Sure, if you convert we will still kill you but you go to heaven instead".

Reader --

Two defenitions --
Copying these from a dictionary so dont tell me I'm wrong.
Religion -- Any specific system of beleif and worship, often involving a cod of ethics and a philosopy.
Simply stated, atheism is a religion.



Hi first I'm atheist

also to the guy who thinks the bible could convince you that "god" eexists. Do you believe harry potter exists cos j k rowling wrote it.

also type o in the quote code not cod

I like your process here...I myself am pagan, but have no wish to convert you only because atheism seems to work for you. Or, to make things interesting...how about instead I give you a hard fact to convert you to athiesm...somthing I have pondered often in my time...

There is a gland in the brain specifically devoted to religious experiences. When the external stimulus is just right, it flares into action creating sensations that we, as a species, relate to 'God'. As such the point of this fact is that it come down to an age old question: Which came first, the deity or the people? I will support the atheism in you by saying that I challenge that mankind came first and Deity was just somthing that spawned out of an evolutionary change in the structure of our primate brains.

Was this what you were looking for?

Evil Grins,
Were Bryan

become religious or go to helll!
...to the atheists hell that is. And that equals becoming religious.
so either way you'll end up religious ;) [/logic]

I like your process here...I myself am pagan, but have no wish to convert you only because atheism seems to work for you. Or, to make things interesting...how about instead I give you a hard fact to convert you to athiesm...somthing I have pondered often in my time...

There is a gland in the brain specifically devoted to religious experiences. When the external stimulus is just right, it flares into action creating sensations that we, as a species, relate to 'God'. As such the point of this fact is that it come down to an age old question: Which came first, the deity or the people? I will support the atheism in you by saying that I challenge that mankind came first and Deity was just somthing that spawned out of an evolutionary change in the structure of our primate brains.

Was this what you were looking for?

Evil Grins,
Were Bryan

This sounds like the Dogbert theory: Man will eventually create God with his achivements.

Perhaps the most philsophically complex idea to come from a comic strip.

For the original poster: Firstly, you ask them to prove it to you scientifically. This approch is impossible, even religious will cede that. Mostly, the reason why people become religious is becuase:
(1)they've had a 'revelation',
(2)its what their parents told them and they never thought twice about it, or
(3)They feel its more important to believe something comforting than true.

I'd be quite impressed if I could make the threadstarter religious, considering that I am an atheist. I'd also feel rather guilty about it.

Read A Case for Christ by Lee Strobel and come back after you finish it. If that book doesn't make you believe in God, other than the Bible, I don't know what will.

I was going to recommend that as soon as I saw this, more so when I read his background! I highly recommend it.

I heard about a book you might be interested in that supposedly debunks the theory of evolution:

http://www.harunyahya.com/books/darwinism/newresearch/newresearch1.php

I believe it was written by a Muslim who believes in the Second Coming of Christ.

I was going to recommend that as soon as I saw this, more so when I read his background! I highly recommend it.

I heard about a book you might be interested in that supposedly debunks the theory of evolution.

lol. Great minds think alike; I read it when I was totally lost and it brought me back to center; have you read his A Case for Faith as well?

The evolution book looks interesting.

Think for yourself, come to your own conclusions, and if that leads you to deism, good for you.

Reader --
I ask you to make me religious. Make me beleive in a god, I dont care which one. Give me proof, something that can be shown through scientific methods. I want somebody to make me beleive and prove to me that there is a higher being out there.
No one can do that. You will either find your own reason to believe, or not.

Two defenitions --
Copying these from a dictionary so dont tell me I'm wrong.
Religion -- Any specific system of beleif and worship, often involving a cod of ethics and a philosopy.
Simply stated, atheism is a religion.
Atheists don't worship anything, nor is their belief in no god systematic.

My religion says I'm not allowed to. Sorry. :p

Naw, really now. I don't think I'm in any fit position to convince you of any religion or another, considering mine is a personally-created eccentric mix of all sorts of beliefs and practices and deities with a healthy dose of saying it's all lies anyway. It's a very nice one, though, in my opinion. ;)

Faith: "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."

-Dictionary.com

No one can prove the existence of God.

My religion says I'm not allowed to. Sorry. :p

Naw, really now. I don't think I'm in any fit position to convince you of any religion or another, considering mine is a personally-created eccentric mix of all sorts of beliefs and practices and deities with a healthy dose of saying it's all lies anyway. It's a very nice one, though, in my opinion. ;)
that sounds very interesting. I think I'm your religion's newest follower. What's it called? Merridonism? I'm a Merridonist, then :D

One cannot be made religious. It is up to YOU to embrace God, and your form of worship. The man upstairs takes care of the rest

that sounds very interesting. I think I'm your religion's newest follower. What's it called? Merridonism? I'm a Merridonist, then :D

Ha, cool. I have a flock, now.
*Sings "Bringing in the Sheep"*
*Then bows out of the thread, as has nothing more to contribute.*

There is a gland in the brain specifically devoted to religious experiences. When the external stimulus is just right, it flares into action creating sensations that we, as a species, relate to 'God'.

I am ultra-sceptical, but curious. Can anyone back this statement up with journal articles or credible web sources?

Give me proof, something that can be shown through scientific methods.

This will never happen because religion is by definition outside of the scientific realm. This isn't to say that one can't be scientific and religous, just that religion and science don't have a whole lot to do with one another. I know some very intelligent people who are members of the scientific community who believe in God and are members of the Catholic and and other Christian churchs. This isn't meant to be your "proof" (I already told there could be no proof) but something to get you thinking.

As far as any of us converting you is concerned, well, the truth is that we can only do so much. Ultimately you have to convert yourself. I think it is possible for you to truly investigate and open yourself up to religous possibilities without having to compromise your current beliefs. I'd recommend talking with responsible religous leaders such as a priest or any older church member who keeps in touch with their faith.

Surprisingly enough, the best advice I could give anyone in your situation is to pray. I know, I know, you probably think praying to a God that you don't believe in is nonsense. But why not try a prayer like this a couple of times "God, I don't really believe that you exist, but if you do, I would like to know the truth. So, if you exist, reveal yourself to me or guide me to you." Something as simple as that could work-feel free to say anything you want. Will anything happen? Maybe, maybe not. The idea behind this is that if the religous can't be proved through scientific means, why not try searching for God in a religous way?

I know that you're probably worried about us Christians telling you stuff like this in hopes that we will brainwash you. However, I think if you're aware of this, you should be able to make sure that you aren't brainwashed. I think it's up you to determine what's fact and what's fiction, what's real and what's just an attempt at brainwashing.

Also, here's a warning to you. Many people (especially on forums like this) claim to know about Christianity but really don't. So just because you hear something about Christianity that you don't like, doesn't mean that it's necessarily true. If you do decide to look more closely at Christianity, please, PLEASE, make sure you at least have your facts straight and have given Christianity a real chance before you dismiss it. If you've given a good shot at a religion but just weren't able to get into it anyway, well, at least you're more educated about your world and your position as an atheist will be all the stronger for it. Also, if you don't get into immediately, that doesn't mean that sometime down the road it wont happen.

Here's another point. The scientific theory can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God or the validity of religion. So, an atheist saying "you can't prove God exists so I'll remain an atheist!" is just like a religous person saying "you can't prove that God does not exist so I'll remain religous!" That's something to think about as well.

Finally, why should you bother looking into the existence of God? Well, most people want to know the truth, or at least have as good of an idea about the truth as they can get. Also, the belief in God will change a person's overall outlook on life. When people are converted, they generally view the change they undergo as changing them for the better.

A shot in the dark...
The ultimate, utterly final level of quantum physics is, i was once told "what causes mass?"; what causes particles, or subparticles muons quarks and that which lies beneath, to act upon...well..anything?

Think about it. Nothing causes mass. Mass is. Im not sure its definitive proof but the existance of any absolute in the universe is enough to convince me of god...i dont know why.

Apolagies if my case is flawed, but i am going on information received - and in fact that makes perfect sense - mass is surely the single most fundamental concept in existance? To understand why things work at that level....hmm. I think that everything will end or stop when (if) that happens, but im funny like that.

I like your process here...I myself am pagan, but have no wish to convert you only because atheism seems to work for you. Or, to make things interesting...how about instead I give you a hard fact to convert you to athiesm...somthing I have pondered often in my time...

There is a gland in the brain specifically devoted to religious experiences. When the external stimulus is just right, it flares into action creating sensations that we, as a species, relate to 'God'. As such the point of this fact is that it come down to an age old question: Which came first, the deity or the people?
quite frankly I have no idea why that disproves crishtanity or any other religon in fact that actually helps explain why I realized that even atheist need to have a name for themselves and strive to convince people god doesn't exist why whould someone who belives people are being foolish but costing him nothing and actually helping people while their at it, why their is no reason except god instilled this devotion into all man and when their mind changes this nature doesn't I have no reason to belive that proves anything.

Ah yes, the Bin Laden approach.. that should get you recruits real fast.. :p

Works real well in the middle east though. :)

Reader --
I ask you to make me religious. Make me beleive in a god, I dont care which one. Give me proof, something that can be shown through scientific methods. I want somebody to make me beleive and prove to me that there is a higher being out there.

A few background notes --
I am an Atheist. I was Christian when I was young, before I was old enough to think for myself and realize I dont beleive in a higher being. I am not Atheist because somebody makes me beleive there is no god, I do it of my own free will. Keep this in mind please.

Two defenitions --
Copying these from a dictionary so dont tell me I'm wrong.
Religion -- Any specific system of beleif and worship, often involving a cod of ethics and a philosopy.
Simply stated, atheism is a religion.

Atheism -- The beleif that there is no god, or denial that God or gods exist.
Simply stated, atheists are not morons or witches. We just dont beleive in a God. Also, please dont tell me I'm going to go to hell or anything of a similar nature for it is a useless point that I dont wish to read several times over.

Restrictions --
I dont really want to see anybody even telling me just to open my heart and beleive in a higher being. I want solid facts. Also I would request, though its not nessecary, that you dont give me any links. I dont like reading through them. If you wish to state a point I would prefer it if you stated it here on this thread.
Thats all, so please, convert me!

You can't prove that God doesn't exist either.
You probably shouldn't care anyway.

Therefore: www.apatheticagnostic.com "We don't know and we don't care"

I was going to recommend that as soon as I saw this, more so when I read his background! I highly recommend it.

I heard about a book you might be interested in that supposedly debunks the theory of evolution:

http://www.harunyahya.com/books/darwinism/newresearch/newresearch1.php

I believe it was written by a Muslim who believes in the Second Coming of Christ.
after reading this, this whole thing meant nothing to me,how old is this? well, i dont want to sound rude, but im an evolutionist, your belifs will not desuade me, this book must have been mada about 100 years ago, but lets see, when your parents gave you their religion to you, and so on and so on, but i believe it all started with the need for some escape from reality!

Reader --
I ask you to make me religious. Make me beleive in a god, I dont care which one. Give me proof, something that can be shown through scientific methods. I want somebody to make me beleive and prove to me that there is a higher being out there.

A few background notes --
I am an Atheist. I was Christian when I was young, before I was old enough to think for myself and realize I dont beleive in a higher being. I am not Atheist because somebody makes me beleive there is no god, I do it of my own free will. Keep this in mind please.

Two defenitions --
Copying these from a dictionary so dont tell me I'm wrong.
Religion -- Any specific system of beleif and worship, often involving a cod of ethics and a philosopy.
Simply stated, atheism is a religion.

Atheism -- The beleif that there is no god, or denial that God or gods exist.
Simply stated, atheists are not morons or witches. We just dont beleive in a God. Also, please dont tell me I'm going to go to hell or anything of a similar nature for it is a useless point that I dont wish to read several times over.

Restrictions --
I dont really want to see anybody even telling me just to open my heart and beleive in a higher being. I want solid facts. Also I would request, though its not nessecary, that you dont give me any links. I dont like reading through them. If you wish to state a point I would prefer it if you stated it here on this thread.
Thats all, so please, convert me!


The fact of the matter is, Jewish Law states that you don't have to be religious or believe in God in order to go to heaven (unlike just about every other religion). All you need are the big seven:

(in no perticular order)

Do not murder
Do not steal
Do not commit any kind of sexual immorality
Do not blaspheme
Do not worship idols
Do not eat meat cut from a live animal (which I know seems VERY tempting)
Set up courts of justice and punish wrongdoers (not for you specifically, but mankind in general)

These are known as the Laws of Noah. They apply to the whole world, Jewish/Muslim/Christian as well as Pagan. If you want to reach salvation and go to heaven (according to Jewish belief anyway) then just follow those 7 things and you'll be fine.

Now if you really want to be religious and believe in God, catch me on AIM sometime, Romis69 is my screename and we can talk more.

The fact of the matter is, Jewish Law states that you don't have to be religious or believe in God in order to go to heaven (unlike just about every other religion). All you need are the big seven:

(in no perticular order)

Do not murder
Do not steal
Do not commit any kind of sexual immorality
Do not blaspheme
Do not worship idols
Do not eat meat cut from a live animal (which I know seems VERY tempting)
Set up courts of justice and punish wrongdoers (not for you specifically, but mankind in general)

These are known as the Laws of Noah. They apply to the whole world, Jewish/Muslim/Christian as well as Pagan. If you want to reach salvation and go to heaven (according to Jewish belief anyway) then just follow those 7 things and you'll be fine.



How are you supposed to be a pagan without worshiping idols (other gods) or blaspheming (not worshiping Jehovah)? And pretty much all the religions outside of those of "The Book" and Buddhism say that you can worship any God you like. There are lots of them so if you want to worship the God of the ruins of a temple in the middle of a desert somewhere just add him to the roster.

On the subject of paganism I recommend Asatru. Norse Paganism. I don't have any specific proof that a family of Viking super-heroes overlooks the Earth meddling in current events trying to forestall the end of the world but it does teach that when you pray you should drink 3 glasses of mead. I usually pray for more mead, and since a bottle holds about 4 glasses my prayers are almost always answered :D
And in the morning you will certainly be open to the idea that there is a strong angry guy who causes thunder by banging on the inside of a skull with a big hammer.

I can make you believe in the one and only god that can ever exist:

YOURSELF

I heard about a book you might be interested in that supposedly debunks the theory of evolution:

http://www.harunyahya.com/books/darwinism/newresearch/newresearch1.php

I believe it was written by a Muslim who believes in the Second Coming of Christ.

hehe. I always get a little kick out of people who try to dismiss science by asking rhetorical questions with the air of one who expects the only answer to be absurd. Especially when any reasonably bright high school student could provide an answer. My in-laws recently went to upstate New York (the great eastern bastion of liberalism) and came back with a stack of religious pamphlets that use that exact tactic. "Evolutionists say that certain animals show similar characteristics but leopards are yellow with black spots and tigers are yellow with black stripes they're really more different than they are the same. Just like Christians and Catholics."

This muslim one is no better. Every society (not even civilization is necessary for this realization) that has ever domesticated an animal knows that animals evolve. They just call it breeding. Fat pigs make fat piglets sickly pigs make an early christmas ham.

Big Jim P - sorry bud, but that was hella-lame

Like, really...REALLY lame

lol


...About the part of the brain that deals with spirituality...surely thats a arther good case FOR a god who simply plays by the rules - aka instead of saying "let there be life" sets into motion evolution - knowing the end but still going through the proper channels....now...on that assumption...the same god could quite feisably seek to promote religion by wiring it into our brains?

*drives in*
HELLLLLLL
*screeches away*

How are you supposed to be a pagan without worshiping idols (other gods) or blaspheming (not worshiping Jehovah)? And pretty much all the religions outside of those of "The Book" and Buddhism say that you can worship any God you like. There are lots of them so if you want to worship the God of the ruins of a temple in the middle of a desert somewhere just add him to the roster.

On the subject of paganism I recommend Asatru. Norse Paganism. I don't have any specific proof that a family of Viking super-heroes overlooks the Earth meddling in current events trying to forestall the end of the world but it does teach that when you pray you should drink 3 glasses of mead. I usually pray for more mead, and since a bottle holds about 4 glasses my prayers are almost always answered :D
And in the morning you will certainly be open to the idea that there is a strong angry guy who causes thunder by banging on the inside of a skull with a big hammer.

First off, one can easily be a pagan and not worship idols. An idol doesn't just mean a statue, because before people were able to use gold or silver to make statues, there was still idol woship. This type of idol worship is mentioned in the Bible.

... Look, I have two daughters who have never had sexual relations with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do to them whatever you please. Only don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.” ...
(note that translations vary.)

So Lot took the idea of being a good host, which is definitely important, but the fact that he took that idea of everything else important (like his obligation to protect his daughters) is in fact considered a type of idol worship.

Idol worshippers are sometimes called "star worshippers" because they sometimes worship the sun, moon, and stars. That's another kind of idol worship and certainly I think it along with all the others can be avoided.

Now in terms of blasphemy. You got the definition incorrect. Blasphemy is not worshipping God. Blasphemy is things like cursing God, cursing in God's name, swearing in Gods name and then lying (this is why in court people put their hands on the Bible and swear). The other kind is when a human being claimes to be God (for example, Pharoah was considered a God, and even more recently, the Japanse emporer before Japan's defeat in WWII was considered a God by many), that's blasphemy, and it has nothing to do with worshipping God.

nothin but Isnpired work here, I highly reccomend that you look at your atheistic religon on the princpel of how it all began, does the big bang even acure we are supposedly the only universe and it all soupposedly strated when some trigger to it from some outer source, also how did a universe compact in to a semi-non existant ball and how did that acure and if it did some how happen its far more ludicris then my religon

Idol worshippers are sometimes called "star worshippers" because they sometimes worship the sun, moon, and stars.

Those kids are always after me lucky charms ...

Reader --
I ask you to make me religious. Make me beleive in a god, I dont care which one. Give me proof, something that can be shown through scientific methods.!

Silly you - faith is no longer faith when accompanied by evidence. Faith is a beliefe in something without evidence.

..that reminds me of a bit from a book..i forget which but it might be Gods Debris..

First off, one can easily be a pagan and not worship idols. An idol doesn't just mean a statue, because before people were able to use gold or silver to make statues, there was still idol woship. This type of idol worship is mentioned in the Bible.


(note that translations vary.)

So Lot took the idea of being a good host, which is definitely important, but the fact that he took that idea of everything else important (like his obligation to protect his daughters) is in fact considered a type of idol worship.

Idol worshippers are sometimes called "star worshippers" because they sometimes worship the sun, moon, and stars. That's another kind of idol worship and certainly I think it along with all the others can be avoided.

Now in terms of blasphemy. You got the definition incorrect. Blasphemy is not worshipping God. Blasphemy is things like cursing God, cursing in God's name, swearing in Gods name and then lying (this is why in court people put their hands on the Bible and swear). The other kind is when a human being claimes to be God (for example, Pharoah was considered a God, and even more recently, the Japanse emporer before Japan's defeat in WWII was considered a God by many), that's blasphemy, and it has nothing to do with worshipping God.

I think you're stretching a bit on your definition of idol worship. Worship means that you pray to it. The ancient Hebrews saw idol worship all around them because they were surrounded by people who don't pray to Jehovah. But they didn't exacly pray to statues either. People crave symbolic representation of their beliefs. Ancient Jehovah worship got where it is today by taking a look at other people's rites and saying that they're wrong. They use statues to represent their god? Thou shalt not carve graven images. We're pastorialists and they're agrarianists? Cain killed Able in a jealous rage when God said he liked the animal sacrifice of Able better than the grain sacrifice of Cain, and those farmers plant different crops on the same ground, let's tell 'em to stop. No! God won't let Israel turn into a desert.
Practically no culture actually worships statues "oh great lump of marble and alabaster please sit there and weigh a lot." It's like seeing someone get a copy of Oliver Twist and feeling like you must point out that there is no actual mistreated orphan dwelling within the book.

As for blasphemy, it does mean not acting with proper respect to God. Other definitions are just refinments of that idea. Worshiping other gods falls under that. Also "respect for God" is a notion that is self referential to the culture in question. The pious man in Greece is the blasphemer in Rome. He's also the heretic but that doesn't mean he's not blasphemous.

..that reminds me of a bit from a book..i forget which but it might be Gods Debris..

You're sure it's not the Babelfish from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy?

Thank you all for your lovely posts. I dont have time to reply to all of them specifically but I will do my best to summarize up what I have been thinking and to things that stuck out in my mind.

To those who recommended the other book -- I will look into it, thank you.

Boofheads -- I think you have it in your head that I actually want to become a religious person. I dont. I mearly wanted to show that there is no hard evidence that any higher-being exists. So far, I have found none and my case is winning. :rolleyes:

Romish Maldova -- An interesting idea you mention. Unfortunately, there is no proof that if you do these things you will be promised an ever-lasting life.

Were Bryan -- The thought of such a gland in our brains is intriguing. And along with Spookistan, I think this would be an interesting thing to look into if I could find some proof of sorts to back your statement up.

Boofheads -- I think you have it in your head that I actually want to become a religious person. I dont. I mearly wanted to show that there is no hard evidence that any higher-being exists. So far, I have found none and my case is winning. :rolleyes:


Mostly I was just hoping you'd be interested in learning more about it for the sake of learning the truth of God's existence or nonexistence for yourself.
As everyone in this thread has told you, only you can make yourself religous. If you aren't interested in becoming religious or at least looking into it, it wont happen.


Also, I don't think you get the point that science cannot explain religion. From a scientific standpoint, my case cannot be winning and neither can yours. There's no proof either way, so how can either case be winning?

I think you're stretching a bit on your definition of idol worship. Worship means that you pray to it. The ancient Hebrews saw idol worship all around them because they were surrounded by people who don't pray to Jehovah. But they didn't exacly pray to statues either. People crave symbolic representation of their beliefs. Ancient Jehovah worship got where it is today by taking a look at other people's rites and saying that they're wrong. They use statues to represent their god? Thou shalt not carve graven images. We're pastorialists and they're agrarianists? Cain killed Able in a jealous rage when God said he liked the animal sacrifice of Able better than the grain sacrifice of Cain, and those farmers plant different crops on the same ground, let's tell 'em to stop. No! God won't let Israel turn into a desert.
Practically no culture actually worships statues "oh great lump of marble and alabaster please sit there and weigh a lot." It's like seeing someone get a copy of Oliver Twist and feeling like you must point out that there is no actual mistreated orphan dwelling within the book.

As for blasphemy, it does mean not acting with proper respect to God. Other definitions are just refinments of that idea. Worshiping other gods falls under that. Also "respect for God" is a notion that is self referential to the culture in question. The pious man in Greece is the blasphemer in Rome. He's also the heretic but that doesn't mean he's not blasphemous.
It's not a matter of negating the religions around them, who prayed to statues, as "wrong". God is formless and boundless, and to make an idol of God and worship that would be an attempt to limit God's form and give it structure. That's why idol worship is "bad". God appears as the Word: a disembodied voice in a burning bush, a voice on Mount Sinai, etc.
Deut. 4:11 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

I'll make you religious and then some! *satire*

Ahem! Brother, embrace the lawd Jesus! Come see the light - join us True Christians (TM) here at Landover Baptist (www.landoverbaptist.org)! You can still be saved from burning in the firey lake that is Hell if you join with me, and together, you and I can rule the galaxy!!

Ooops, now where was I - I didn't mean to tangent like that; O yeah, back to my preaching, y'all. Y'all may think that Catholics are okay, but they are evil Mary Worshippers! We are the *only* True Christians (TM)!


That was just satire - nobody better flame me, thinking that what I said is true

Faith: "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."

-Dictionary.com

No one can prove the existence of God.

no one can prove the big bang either...

Science and faith are separate entities. The supernatural is another realm compared to the physical world. but what do I know, I'm a stupid agnostic.

Trojan...that's like asking us to turn you inside-out. Your telling us to take opinions and thrust away your opinions and replace them with ours. Your telling us to replace the shaky "facts" of atheists with our shaky "facts."

(I emphasize "facts" because they might not be facts at all.)

It's not do-able at all unless your willing to do it.

I may not be able to prove it scientifically (but hey, you can't prove lots of scientific theories scientifically either, so i'm not doing all that badly) but how about logically?

The Bible states, in acts 2:38, that to be saved you have to repent, be baptised, and recieve the Holy Spirit. Now, how do you know you've got this Holy Spirit? You speak in unknown tongues. This happened to the early believers in around about acts 2, and it continued on since then. If there is a God, then his writings should be true, and if they're true, this can happen to you too. So therefore, if there is a God, you can recieve the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in unknown tongues.

I know for a fact that there is a God, because this has happened to me, and to all the others in the church which i go to. We have felt the power of God in our lives, and there is no doubt that there is a God. However, i'd understand if you don't accept this, as this could be some kind of "religious brainwashing" or some such thing, however i know this not to be the case.

So anyway, according to the logic above, if you can recieve the Holy Spirit, then there is a God. How do you do this? Basically you have to, and i know you said not to do this at the start, open your heart to him. Some people i know have just said to Him, "Right, if you're real, then there's this Spirit thing, and i want it. If you give it to me, then you're real, otherwise i won't believe you" and they recieved the Spirit. I can't guarantee that this will work for you, as it is a personal experience, but there's my arguement.

Interesting page for the interested(obviously).
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/index.html

I may not be able to prove it scientifically (but hey, you can't prove lots of scientific theories scientifically either, so i'm not doing all that badly) but how about logically?

The Bible states, in acts 2:38, that to be saved you have to repent, be baptised, and recieve the Holy Spirit. Now, how do you know you've got this Holy Spirit? You speak in unknown tongues. This happened to the early believers in around about acts 2, and it continued on since then. If there is a God, then his writings should be true, and if they're true, this can happen to you too. So therefore, if there is a God, you can recieve the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in unknown tongues.

Sooooo, The Prophet is Scatman John? :confused:

I pray to the allmighty god , Make Northern Oddeties believe in you. Give him 200,000,000 dollars.










Rich yet?

Why be religious in the first place? There are enough things in this world to occupy you life. I literally can devote my very LIFE to anything I chose to. I chose to devote my life to my life.

Here and now, not later, when I will be DEAD.

The Bible states, in acts 2:38, that to be saved you have to repent, be baptised, and recieve the Holy Spirit. Now, how do you know you've got this Holy Spirit? You speak in unknown tongues. This happened to the early believers in around about acts 2, and it continued on since then. If there is a God, then his writings should be true, and if they're true, this can happen to you too. So therefore, if there is a God, you can recieve the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in unknown tongues.


If this is true, then why do people who get Confirmed (the receiving of the holy spirit) not start babbling in an unknown tongue?

(no i don't believe in god. don't try to convert me i don't like to listen to that crap)

If this is true, then why do people who get Confirmed (the receiving of the holy spirit) not start babbling in an unknown tongue?

Because just because some person says "ok, you've got it" doesn't mean they do. I could go around to someone and say "you're now president of the united states" but that doesn't mean they are, does it?

Why be religious in the first place? There are enough things in this world to occupy you life. I literally can devote my very LIFE to anything I chose to. I chose to devote my life to my life.

Here and now, not later, when I will be DEAD.

Sure, you could occupy your life now with all sorts of random things, but what about the eternity afterwards? Why trade eternity for 70 odd years?

I pray to the allmighty god , Make Northern Oddeties believe in you. Give him 200,000,000 dollars.





Rich yet?

You do have to have some sort of belief. Not much, but at least willing to give it a go.


Sooooo, The Prophet is Scatman John?

I have no idea what you mean.

Sure, you could occupy your life now with all sorts of random things, but what about the eternity afterwards? Why trade eternity for 70 odd years?

You did not read my post. I live for now, not some fantasy world. I keep my fantasies quite seperate from the reality that you wish to avoid.

Just because i'm a christian doesn't mean i don't have fun and enjoy myself, which is what you seem to imply. Also, i don't see how i'm "avoiding reality". I go to school, do work, etc etc. I don't sit in a box waiting for it all to end. I may not drink alcohol, do drugs, smoke and the like, but then again, i don't get hangovers, get my head stuffed around with, or increase my chances of getting lung diseases. I know that there is a God, due to the aforementioned reasons and a few other things, and even if i didn't, i'm not sure i'd want to take the risk of eternal damnation or some such thing for not toning things down a little.

You did not read my post. I live for now, not some fantasy world. I keep my fantasies quite seperate from the reality that you wish to avoid.

Exactly.

How, and now, we are alive.


And honestly, how depressing is it to think that "all the good stuff happens when I die!" I mean really, that's a major downer.

Just because i'm a christian doesn't mean i don't have fun and enjoy myself, which is what you seem to imply. Also, i don't see how i'm "avoiding reality". I go to school, do work, etc etc. I don't sit in a box waiting for it all to end. I may not drink alcohol, do drugs, smoke and the like, but then again, i don't get hangovers, get my head stuffed around with, or increase my chances of getting lung diseases. I know that there is a God, due to the aforementioned reasons and a few other things, and even if i didn't, i'm not sure i'd want to take the risk of eternal damnation or some such thing for not toning things down a little.

First of all, one can decide to not get into drugs, alcohol, and so on and be un-religious. That's the way I am.

Secondly...ooooooh, Pascal's, eh? Interesting.

And thirdly, as someone much wiser then myself once stated here (I don't remember who, sorry ^_^;;; ), any diety that demands worship, doesn't deserve it. It's simple. If God damns me to hell for not worshiping him, then he isn't a merciful God. Which gives you two options: either he's an evil, unmerciful God, or there's no damnation.


Which is it?

I know that someone can not do those things and be un-religious, but they were all that i could think of that i would be "missing out on" due to my belief.

There is another option, that being that your arguement is fundamentally flawed. God does not "demand" to be worshipped. What he wants is a personal relationship with people. That is why he sent his Holy spirit. Right now all God wants is to be, as far as i'm aware, accepted by his people, and to be a father figure. However, when he returns, then he'll be all judgement and so forth. That's when you don't want to be on His bad side.

If you say he's unmerciful, think of it this way. He's been around for several thousand years, from the beginning with adam and eve, through the israelites ignoring him repeatedly, through people killing his only son who he sent to help them and who had signs and miracles, and now finally through an age where less and less people seem to be paying any attention and where immorality seems to rife, i'm sure you'd understand he's kinda annoyed. He's given people this period, 2000 years so far, of grace to come to know him, but that's going to end at one point. If you were merciful, i'm sure if someone kept ignoring you you'd stop letting them get away with it.

as for
And honestly, how depressing is it to think that "all the good stuff happens when I die!" I mean really, that's a major downer.

Not all the good stuff happens when you die. While you live, there's no reason you can't enjoy yourself. And it's not when you die, so much as when you are risen back to life to live with God forever. I'd say that's the best bit.

I know that someone can not do those things and be un-religious, but they were all that i could think of that i would be "missing out on" due to my belief.

There is another option, that being that your arguement is fundamentally flawed. God does not "demand" to be worshipped. What he wants is a personal relationship with people. That is why he sent his Holy spirit. Right now all God wants is to be, as far as i'm aware, accepted by his people, and to be a father figure. However, when he returns, then he'll be all judgement and so forth. That's when you don't want to be on His bad side.

If you say he's unmerciful, think of it this way. He's been around for several thousand years, from the beginning with adam and eve, through the israelites ignoring him repeatedly, through people killing his only son who he sent to help them and who had signs and miracles, and now finally through an age where less and less people seem to be paying any attention and where immorality seems to rife, i'm sure you'd understand he's kinda annoyed. He's given people this period, 2000 years so far, of grace to come to know him, but that's going to end at one point. If you were merciful, i'm sure if someone kept ignoring you you'd stop letting them get away with it.

as for


Not all the good stuff happens when you die. While you live, there's no reason you can't enjoy yourself. And it's not when you die, so much as when you are risen back to life to live with God forever. I'd say that's the best bit.


He's God. He's perfect. He has an infinite amount of patience and mercy. So no, he wouldn't get annoyed.




And it's flat out arrogent to assume that I would stop being merciful to someone if they were ignoring me. Oh no, is being nice going to be HARD? FUCK THAT. Being nice isn't always going to be easy, and not everyone you show kindness to is going to accept it. Well, TOUGH SHIT. If your alturistic, you'll KEEP acting out of kindness. It's easy to be nice to people when they give you something in return. Really easy. TOO FUCKING EASY.

I'm VERY sick of this. People pretend to be all kind, and they think they're so fantastic because they're a little nice to people who grin and thank them in return. Wanna know something? That doesn't mean shit. It doesn't. ESPECIALLY not in your religion. Try being kind to people that hate you. Try giving to people that couldn't care less about your existance. Try being nice to someone who WON'T be nice back. Not as fucking easy.






And yes, saying "worship me or burn" is forcing someone to worship you.

Here's the thing: I can be a complete asshole, I can be a mass murderer, and as long as I say "whoops-sorry baby Jesus!" right before dying, I'm going to heaven.

On the same hand, I could be Mother Teresa. Give away EVERYTHING. I could end all war, cure cancer, promote peace and love all over the world.

But if I didn't pray to Jesus, I'd burn in hell. THAT is unjust, THAT is unmerciful, THAT is unfair, and THAT is exactly why I REFUSE to be a christian. Belief in a cruel god makes cruel men-and that god is most definatly cruel.

Just because i'm a christian doesn't mean i don't have fun and enjoy myself, which is what you seem to imply. Also, i don't see how i'm "avoiding reality". I go to school, do work, etc etc. I don't sit in a box waiting for it all to end. I may not drink alcohol, do drugs, smoke and the like, but then again, i don't get hangovers, get my head stuffed around with, or increase my chances of getting lung diseases.

So tell me, where does Christianity forbid alcohol. I thought that Jesus said "drink wine in rememberence of me" or something like that. At the very least he turned water into wine so that his friends would have something to drink. The idea that teetotaling is inherently Christian always struck me as a little silly.

Reader --
I ask you to make me religious. Make me beleive in a god, I dont care which one. Give me proof, something that can be shown through scientific methods. I want somebody to make me beleive and prove to me that there is a higher being out there.

to me, that is like somebody saying, "Make me a heroine addict!" i don't understand why you would want to do that to yourself.

So tell me, where does Christianity forbid alcohol. I thought that Jesus said "drink wine in rememberence of me" or something like that. At the very least he turned water into wine so that his friends would have something to drink.

It doesn't forbid alcohol entirely, but not to excess. That is, not to the point of drunkenness. As far as i'm aware, that was the point of alcohol, and as such i have personally chosen not to drink alcohol.

Yes, Jesus did turn water into wine, but it was "new wine" which basically means that it hadn't fermented, and they used new wine at the last supper too, i believe.

A shot in the dark...
The ultimate, utterly final level of quantum physics is, i was once told "what causes mass?"; what causes particles, or subparticles muons quarks and that which lies beneath, to act upon...well..anything?

Think about it. Nothing causes mass. Mass is. Im not sure its definitive proof but the existance of any absolute in the universe is enough to convince me of god...i dont know why.

Apolagies if my case is flawed, but i am going on information received - and in fact that makes perfect sense - mass is surely the single most fundamental concept in existance? To understand why things work at that level....hmm. I think that everything will end or stop when (if) that happens, but im funny like that.

well, when you consider that mass and energy are interchangeable, the mass that exists in the universe theoretically came from a singurlarity that expanded, this early universe was full of photons and when the universe cooled sufficiently, subatomic particles coudl be formed through pair creation. eventually the universe cooled enough that hydrogen atoms (traces of helium, lithium et c) could be formed these formed stars, which spat out heavier elements et c.

as to what causes the mass to act on other things... well, the force related to mass is called gravity. there are other forces in place, mainly the electromagnetic force, then there's the strong force and the weak force which act on atoms themselves (not that the other forces don't act on atoms) and hold them together and try to tear them apart...

anyone ever seen a dog chase its own tail??? anyone???

..and big jim p man im sorry but again that was so so lame!

theres nothing more cringe-causing than people saying "ughhh youve gotta live for the now man" in this sort of discussion! i count myself as being rather spontanteous most of the time and far too whimsicle in nature...but that doesnt mean i waltz into a sensible (if..repedidtive) dicussion and start puking out cliches about livin in the now etc etc

sorry, was a bit harsh i guess....barshift left me stressey. ...getting that job was a whim i now think better of lol! :headbang:

and dakini!

NOOOO

hell thats just A-level physics!

ugh.

not mass is in "all the mass" - mass as in the very function of being a mass - hell even photons have mass! your confusing what i said with "matter" - no. MASS, not matter. with me yet?

Furthermore we are talking about a thing far more fundamental (now theres a nonsequiteur...lol.."more infinite!") than exchange bosuns and SNF and WNF.

And finally im almsot offended that you wouldnt think to check up on my knowledge of physics before going off on one about where matter came from - from a singularity that expanded? christ man are you sure youve looked into this cos as far as i know thats rubbish...i think..again, physics is almost 2 years distant from me...anyway thats not what im offened about its the "matter and energy are interchangable" that offended me. i mean..are they really!? christ! duh me!

anyway - man the big bang theory states that everything began at a point - a singularity to the best of my knowledge had nothig to do with it...again im sorry if im wrong but i think you ahve your wires croessed big time..anyway

no, we are talking about the existance of MASS, not MATTER. energy has MASS but energy is not MATTER per-sa. MATTER is composed of sufficiant MASSES of energy. MASS! the fact that when you come to it the single most funamental thing is why mass exists - i would like to be able to say "why things are heavy" but weight is a product of mass and gravity bla blah ad that wouldnt be the same thing at all - MASS - got it?

as a third year undergraduat physics major... first off, i dumbed it down severely for length and i'm assuming that not everyone here has taken any phsyics whatsoever.

secondly, photons do not have mass. massive particles can't travel at the speed of light by the theory of relativity. and yes, mass and energy are interchangeable... i'm sure you've heard the formula for mass to energy conversion... you must have, everyone knows einstein's most famous formula.

again, photons do not have mass, they are pure energy. mass can have energy, hell, it always has potential energy. and yes, the big bang is the result of an expanding singualrity. ask my astro profs.

don't sit here claiming to know about physics and then claim that photons are massive particles. did you even finish it in highschool? or did you take it before relativity and quantum?

you also seem to have problems with the difference between mass and weight.

Two defenitions --
Copying these from a dictionary so dont tell me I'm wrong.
Religion -- Any specific system of beleif and worship, often involving a cod of ethics and a philosopy.
Simply stated, atheism is a religion.

Personally, I don't think you've ever gotten over your belief in a higher being or you wouldn't be asking these questions. I think you're Agnostic. But, I'm not here to argue that, I'm here about your claim that Atheism is a religion. Yes, your definition of Atheism is correct, but that doesn't mean it's a religion. Atheists do not worship the fact that there is no God, we'd very much like to believe in one but based on the evidence presented to us, there is none. We don't believe in a God or we deny that one exists simply for the fact that there's no evidence to support one. It's as simple as that.

Now, you may be wondering why I said I don't think you got over your belief. The only people I've ever met that call Atheism a religion, are religious people themselves. They invented the idea that it's a religion and are the ones that uphold that idea.

He's God. He's perfect. He has an infinite amount of patience and mercy. So no, he wouldn't get annoyed.

And it's flat out arrogent to assume that I would stop being merciful to someone if they were ignoring me. Oh no, is being nice going to be HARD? FUCK THAT. Being nice isn't always going to be easy, and not everyone you show kindness to is going to accept it. Well, TOUGH SHIT. If your alturistic, you'll KEEP acting out of kindness. It's easy to be nice to people when they give you something in return. Really easy. TOO FUCKING EASY.

I'm VERY sick of this. People pretend to be all kind, and they think they're so fantastic because they're a little nice to people who grin and thank them in return. Wanna know something? That doesn't mean shit. It doesn't. ESPECIALLY not in your religion. Try being kind to people that hate you. Try giving to people that couldn't care less about your existance. Try being nice to someone who WON'T be nice back. Not as fucking easy.

And yes, saying "worship me or burn" is forcing someone to worship you.

Here's the thing: I can be a complete asshole, I can be a mass murderer, and as long as I say "whoops-sorry baby Jesus!" right before dying, I'm going to heaven.

On the same hand, I could be Mother Teresa. Give away EVERYTHING. I could end all war, cure cancer, promote peace and love all over the world.

But if I didn't pray to Jesus, I'd burn in hell. THAT is unjust, THAT is unmerciful, THAT is unfair, and THAT is exactly why I REFUSE to be a christian. Belief in a cruel god makes cruel men-and that god is most definatly cruel.


Amen … my thoughts exactly (along with the glaring lack of logic it usually takes to believe in a religion)

My favorite question (specially to those that are “I would rather not take a chance”)

Out of the thousands of religions out there ? which is right? There are older, and longer, more dogmatic and more forgiving religions out there then Christianity.


How do you choose? What makes the choice?

Is it just your parents wishes as a youth… or did you run across a good book that really make sense out of completely nonsensical issue? Good speaker? Someone convincing?


I know I am babbling I just mean to point out if you are playing it safe … but choosing the wrong religion sends you to hell … which do you choose? (really when you think about it seems an awful lot like Russian roulette )

Forget all this higher being nonsense, mankind itself IS God.
With our current level of technology we have the power to create life and the power to destroy the world utterly.
We've traveled to another world, we can manipulate forces that were thought to be uncontrollable.
To suggest that all of this was only possible because we are being controlled by a superior being is to belittle the achievments of millions of humans.

Make no mistake, this is not hubris. I do not deny we exist only through chance evolution, but no other species on the planet is capable or has ever been capable (as far as we are aware,I'm open to the idea intelligant species could have turned up before us) to change the world and cheat death like we can.

We are God.

This is a very interesting discussuion and i thought i'd add my views on it.
I'm an atheist mainly because nothing has given me any reason to believe otherwise. I dislike being told how to live my life by anyone, instead i live by my own ethics. This means that i generally try to be nice to people and help people out, i have a sense of justice which has lead me to having strong political views. I think everyone has the right to do what they want as long as it doesn't harm anyone, if it harms themselves it's up to them. This means that i drink, smoke (idiotic, i know) and make informed choices on any other drugs. The point i'm making is that i don't feel any need for religion in my life, i am a fulfilled individual anyway.
Regarding the big bang theory, just because we can not explain yet exactly why it happened (if it did happen) does not in any way suggest that there could be some divine being, when people didn't know why the sun moved through the sky some explained it buy being carried accross the sky in a god's chariot.
Someone mentioned earlier about a part of the brain which gives people religious experiences, although i cannot personally back it up a friend here at uni studying psychology who takes a personal interest in this area. She basicly said what was said in the first post about it and also said that there is strong evidence to suggest that having a faith is beneficial towards your specie's evolution.
I'm sorry if my post is a bit messy as i was lazily trying to reply to a few posts at once. I would like to add that i have complete respect for any religious view point, as long as you don't try to inflict your beliefs upon others, if you do then you are scum.

Much as I hate to point out, God sending atheists to 'hell' doesn't mean he's not merciful.

Technically, hell is a place without God. It's only bad for those that believe in God.

Basically God is just saying "alright then, don't believe in me. And continue to disbelieve in me for eternity now".

I think this is in fact one area where atheism and Christianity can happily co-exist.

As long as Christians accept that for atheists, hell is nothing bad. It's just a continuation of not believing in God.

(excuse spelling mistakes, I'm still kinda weepy after the pitbull flash (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=366427)

as a third year undergraduat physics major... first off, i dumbed it down severely for length and i'm assuming that not everyone here has taken any phsyics whatsoever.

secondly, photons do not have mass. massive particles can't travel at the speed of light by the theory of relativity. and yes, mass and energy are interchangeable... i'm sure you've heard the formula for mass to energy conversion... you must have, everyone knows einstein's most famous formula.

again, photons do not have mass, they are pure energy. mass can have energy, hell, it always has potential energy. and yes, the big bang is the result of an expanding singualrity. ask my astro profs.

don't sit here claiming to know about physics and then claim that photons are massive particles. did you even finish it in highschool? or did you take it before relativity and quantum?

you also seem to have problems with the difference between mass and weight.

no...i finished...and if you will forgive me for saying so i take my friend-who-does-physics-at-oxford's word over yours...clearly that is a bit elitist but if you'd like to discuss the quality of the institution you study at versus oxford then we can. Im at manchester and im not going to try and compare it to oxford except perhaps for medicine.

mass and weight - weight refers to mass in a grvaitational feild i belive?.
what else...there was the photon thing...i know at rest they are zero mass and they have a relative mass of zero but im pretty sure that because they can have momentum they can be said to have a mass, but to the best of my knowledge you could be right and i might have meant to say electron...hmm...thats an interesting point...did i mean to say electron?

like i said to start with i am going off information received and that hasnt changed - i dont study physics, andso this entire discussion is flawed over that point, as i have probably misused a term somewhere...although i can tell you that it has nothing to do with weight.

*goes to noodle about on google*

Try this:

http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/t-37668_What_causes_Mass.html

This seems to be what i was on about and Higgs sounds familliar!

I Apolagise for my own weak understanding of the answers but i am still confident that i had the question right in the first place - the concept captured my imagination - the idea of what must be the most elementry thing in the whole of physics not being fully understood and the idea that mass could be merely an illusion created by feild interactions..

And im still dubious about the big bang thing but if your Prof says then your prof says.

i see... so you accuse me of being wrong and insult me when you meant to say that electrons have mass, which i'm well aware of, thanks, yet say that photons have mass, though they most certainly do not.

and uh, if i'm not mistaken, hawking also referred to the universe as having started off as a singularity... funny how you mention oxford, as i believe he teachers (or taught) there. and since the universe expands and the universe was a singularity... the singularity expands so that it is no longer a singularity anymore, but could be more properly referred to as the early universe.

i find it interesting that you claimed initially to be insulted that i gave such a dumbed down account which insulted your abilities with physics, then you proceed to insult me, when you really haven't studied physics, at least not seriously enough to rely on your own knowledge rather than what your friend from oxford says...

that's really nice of you.

well thats the way the way the cookey crumbles, innit mate?

anyway - i was right about the question so i win! w00 to me.

..gave up being reasonable, hawking is as i recall not famous for his 100%credability as a lot of people feel he just peddles "cleverness for stoopids" and rehashes other peoples idead. I dont have an opinion on it myself..

Sorry to stop aruing but i just cant be arsed - was right, already apolagised for my shaky knowledge of details, and if i offended you then you offend to easily. The electron thing was silly lol.

Wow Dakini, you're really kickin' arse lately with all the scary* maths/physics... first in the "why the disrespect?" thread, and now here.

All just enforcing my belief that... um... wait, I know this.

Ah, yes, that smart people deserve respect. Woo/t.





*Scary to this poor befuddled English/humanities student, at any rate... :p


And gah, I really have to stop putting off studying... I have my first exam in nine days! NINE. DAYS. GAH! *runs off to study.... /post on other threads*

If you start believing in God, it's easier to make Christians leave you alone by agreeing with them.

If you start believing in God, it's easier to make Christians leave you alone by agreeing with them.

it would be even easier if you could make them believe you ARE god

(though then they would be constantly asking for things ... that would be anoying)

it would be even easier if you could make them believe you ARE god

(though then they would be constantly asking for things ... that would be anoying)

Yeah, but then you get a bunch of Satanists wanting to kill you.