NationStates Jolt Archive

Just in case any of you have any shred of objectivity left ...

http://swift3.he.net/~swift3/theyserved.wmv

So why are they opposing Kerry?

http://swift3.he.net/~swift3/why.wmv

It's very funny how some people on this site make fun of these guys, saying everything is a lie. Well how can you prove that everything these 200+ men say is a lie? Even if 1 is correct, doesn't this give the swifties some credability. This whole thing could be over with if Kerry would release all of his records. Then they say "Well Bush hasn't released his, and he was AWOL". The President was not the one who based his acceptance speech on his time in Vietnam, and not on his senate record.

"Who are these people?" (said in Jerry Seinfeld voice).

"Who are these people?" (said in Jerry Seinfeld voice).

My brothers.

Washington Star, June 6, 1971, John Kerry -

"We established an American presence in most cases by showing the flag and firing at sampans and villages along the banks. Those were our instructions, but they seemed so out of line that we finally began to go ashore, against our orders, and investigate the villages that were supposed to be our targets. We discovered we were butchering a lot of innocent people, and morale became so low among the officers on those 'swift boats' that we were called back to Saigon for special instructions from Gen. Abrams. He told us we were doing the right thing. He said our efforts would help win the war in the long run. That's when I realized I could never remain silent about the realities of the war in Vietnam."

Swiftboat Veteran -

"What John Kerry told the Washington Star was a lie.

"Contrary to Kerry's claim, our consistent policy was to take every precaution to avoid harming civilians. On many occasions we did this at the cost of suffering additional casualties ourselves. We have interviewed hundreds of veterans who served on the Swift Boats or supported them, and there is simply no justification for Kerry's statement."

OK. Poor attempt at humor. I don't doubt these guys. But I don't need these men to convince me that John Kerry is a piece of crap. I've seen the video of the testimony he gave to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee about the "atrocities" he "witnessed" being committed by American troops. Kerry is a pure political animal. Volunteered for Viet Nam to be a war hero like his political hero, JFK. Stayed in country four months and got the hell out of Dodge with his medals. He comes home, sees which way the wind was blowing, and realizes being a war hero isn't the thing that is popular with the people. So, he becomes anti-war and sticks his big nose in front of the camera as much is possible. The rest is history.

OK. Poor attempt at humor. I don't doubt these guys. But I don't need these men to convince me that John Kerry is a piece of crap. I've seen the video of the testimony he gave to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee about the "atrocities" he "witnessed" being committed by American troops. Kerry is a pure political animal. Volunteered for Viet Nam to be a war hero like his political hero, JFK. Stayed in country four months and got the hell out of Dodge with his medals. He comes home, sees which way the wind was blowing, and realizes being a war hero isn't the thing that is popular with the people. So, he becomes anti-war and sticks his big nose in front of the camera as much is possible. The rest is history.

Exactly!

All of the men's claims were disproven by military records, journalist accounts, and other soldier's testimony. :rolleyes:

All of the men's claims were disproven by military records, journalist accounts, and other soldier's testimony. :rolleyes:

Maybe, but Kerry's still a pinko war criminal bastard.

Maybe, but Kerry's still a pinko war criminal bastard.

Just like the rest of them. :rolleyes:

Just like the rest of them. :rolleyes:

Most vets were not war criminals. I know many vets myself, and none of them committed or witnessed war crimes. They acknowledged that war crimes did occur, of course, and that some of the crimes were truly horrific, but they staunchly maintain that war criminal vets were a small minority. And as for pinkoes, Kerry's pretty much one of the only vets who was/is one (other than the Soviet front group VVAW).

My brothers.

Wow you gotta big family dude. No sisters too, pretty incredible.

Wow you gotta big family dude. No sisters too, pretty incredible.

We're all brothers and sisters.

All of the men's claims were disproven by military records, journalist accounts, and other soldier's testimony. :rolleyes:Maybe, but Kerry's still a pinko war criminal bastard.

Now explain that logic, please. The accusations are proven to be unreliable and false but the statements in those accusations are valid? I hope you were not of the crowd that bashed CBS for there false letter because you just prooved you were a hypocrit if it was the case.

Now explain that logic, please. The accusations are proven to be unreliable and false but the statements in those accusations are valid? I hope you were not of the crowd that bashed CBS for there false letter because you just prooved you were a hypocrit if it was the case.

Kerry was/is a pinko. In the 80's, he supported Dan Blather's buddies, the Sandinistas, who liked to castrate men and stuff their genitals in their mouths, burn people alive, gouge out eyeballs, shoot children, kill men in front of their families, etc.

I thought Kerry looked more Orange-o

All of the men's claims were disproven by military records, journalist accounts, and other soldier's testimony. :rolleyes:

Bullshit!

Bullshit!

Where?

*steps back, hears a squishy splat! sound*

"Snort, snort"

*Turns, sees pissed off steer, runs like hell screaming his head off*

Kerry was/is a pinko. In the 80's, he supported Dan Blather's buddies, the Sandinistas, who liked to castrate men and stuff their genitals in their mouths, burn people alive, gouge out eyeballs, shoot children, kill men in front of their families, etc.

Listen, accusing Kerry of being a pinko is like accusing you of being conservative... It's pointless.

About his support, can you please give me links so I can see if the accusations are valid? Otherwise, I will be obliged to say senseless things like "Yeah, well the republicans supported Ossama and Saddam. Cheney supported the same Sandinistas" and other rethorics as valid.

Just like the rest of them. :rolleyes:

Somehow my two years in Vietnam seems to carry just a TAD more weight than Kerry's FOUR MONTHS! He lied, he's an amoral opportunitstic coward who faked wounds to get enough medals to come home early so he could be against his former comrades, and he caused untold suffering to American POWs in North Vietnam by his false testimony before a Congressional committee! The man isn't worthy to lick the boots of ANY Swiftboat Veterans, much less be President of the United States!

It's very funny how some people on this site make fun of these guys, saying everything is a lie. Well how can you prove that everything these 200+ men say is a lie? Even if 1 is correct, doesn't this give the swifties some credability.

I do not say that they are necessarily lying about Kerry now.

I do however see that much of what they are saying now that Kerry is running for president directly conflicts with things they have said in the past. For example, many of the officers in his 'chain of command' who now oppose him, gave rave reviews of his character in reports about him; the people on the other boats who now say he didn't deserve the bronze star were the ones submitting the reports that earned him that star; the doctors who now say he didn't deserve the purple hearts were the same ones who signed the forms to get him those medals.

So, while they may not be lying about it now, their own confliction indicates that they lied about it at some point. This is in addition to the fact that many of them who imply that they served 'with' John Kerry, when they only mean 'in the same war with' John Kerry, and in addition to the fact that the guy who started the group was paid by Nixon in the 70's to do the same smearing of JK, doesn't lend them any credibility.

While the groups sentiments may turn out to be correct, the shadiness inherent in their own actions has made them too uncredible to site as source. Quite frankly, heros of the past they are, but their actions now cause their honor and honesty to be suspect in the present.

This whole thing could be over with if Kerry would release all of his records.

He has. They are even conveniently available on his own website for perusal at your leisure.

Then they say "Well Bush hasn't released his, and he was AWOL". The President was not the one who based his acceptance speech on his time in Vietnam, and not on his senate record.

The DNC and its structure were poorly thought out politically. And while I am a firm believer of, "the buck stops here" philosophy, in an election, if your advisors are telling you to do it a certain way, and the DNC wants you to do it a certain way, and it all sounds good, you are likely going to do it that way.

You make it out like JK was sitting in some dark room going,
"I'll make them think I am a hero so then they will vote for me."

and not the more correct,
"A meeting took place and this is the montage we decided on, what to you think, JK?

"...Looks good to me"

Chalk it up to a mistake in judgement regarding his marketing department. That is all it is.

Somehow my two years in Vietnam seems to carry just a TAD more weight than Kerry's FOUR MONTHS! He lied, he's an amoral opportunitstic coward who faked wounds to get enough medals to come home early so he could be against his former comrades, and he caused untold suffering to American POWs in North Vietnam by his false testimony before a Congressional committee! The man isn't worthy to lick the boots of ANY Swiftboat Veterans, much less be President of the United States!
What caused our POW's untold suffereing were bad policies by the US government. He never lied, and most of you have your facts wrong. He said that he had "met with a group of Veterans in Detriot who had personally seen....." He has never claimed that he saw these horrific events, just some of the bad policies and free fire zones, and the lack of a winning game plan that respects it's soldiers lives(and didn't treat them as meerly numbers). John Kerry and his ideals, along with those who also wanted the best for our troops, may be the only reason America didn't stay longer and more American lives lost. Where do your morals lie, following orders or doing what's right for your fellow man?

I do not say that they are necessarily lying about Kerry now.

I do however see that much of what they are saying now that Kerry is running for president directly conflicts with things they have said in the past. For example, many of the officers in his 'chain of command' who now oppose him, gave rave reviews of his character in reports about him; the people on the other boats who now say he didn't deserve the bronze star were the ones submitting the reports that earned him that star; the doctors who now say he didn't deserve the purple hearts were the same ones who signed the forms to get him those medals.

So, while they may not be lying about it now, their own confliction indicates that they lied about it at some point. This is in addition to the fact that many of them who imply that they served 'with' John Kerry, when they only mean 'in the same war with' John Kerry, and in addition to the fact that the guy who started the group was paid by Nixon in the 70's to do the same smearing of JK, doesn't lend them any credibility.

While the groups sentiments may turn out to be correct, the shadiness inherent in their own actions has made them too uncredible to site as source. Quite frankly, heros of the past they are, but their actions now cause their honor and honesty to be suspect in the present.

He has. They are even conveniently available on his own website for perusal at your leisure.

The DNC and its structure were poorly thought out politically. And while I am a firm believer of, "the buck stops here" philosophy, in an election, if your advisors are telling you to do it a certain way, and the DNC wants you to do it a certain way, and it all sounds good, you are likely going to do it that way.

You make it out like JK was sitting in some dark room going,
"I'll make them think I am a hero so then they will vote for me."

and not the more correct,
"A meeting took place and this is the montage we decided on, what to you think, JK?

"...Looks good to me"

Chalk it up to a mistake in judgement regarding his marketing department. That is all it is.

Chalk Kerry himself up as a "mistake."

Most of Kerry's medical records still have not been released, even after the DNC's premature orgasm over the CBS fake memo about President Bush.

Prior to going to Vietnam, Kerry discussed with at least one other soldier how he thought the best path to political influence was to "go to Vietnam for awhile, then come back and be against the war."

All of the Swiftboat Veterans were in the same unit or in the same chain of command as Kerry. The POWs couldn't have been, obviously, but they bear witness to the additional torture they suffered because of Kerry's lies.

What caused our POW's untold suffereing were bad policies by the US government. He never lied, and most of you have your facts wrong. He said that he had "met with a group of Veterans in Detriot who had personally seen....." He has never claimed that he saw these horrific events, just some of the bad policies and free fire zones, and the lack of a winning game plan that respects it's soldiers lives(and didn't treat them as meerly numbers). John Kerry and his ideals, along with those who also wanted the best for our troops, may be the only reason America didn't stay longer and more American lives lost. Where do your morals lie, following orders or doing what's right for your fellow man?

That's quibbling. If I quote someone, say I agree with their statments, walk in protests with them, join them in throwing away what I say are medals, and otherwise indicate my support for what they say, how does that make me any less culpabable?

Somehow my two years in Vietnam seems to carry just a TAD more weight than Kerry's FOUR MONTHS! He lied, he's an amoral opportunitstic coward who faked wounds to get enough medals to come home early so he could be against his former comrades, and he caused untold suffering to American POWs in North Vietnam by his false testimony before a Congressional committee! The man isn't worthy to lick the boots of ANY Swiftboat Veterans, much less be President of the United States!

lol.

You make me laugh so much; I'll believe my dad's four years in Vietnam over yours any day... anyways, I was making a sacracstic statment that was obviously lost in your attempt to continue to self-dilude yourself into thinking that ALL vets are innocent when they're not.

Look, Kerry told the truth of what was happening over there. Sure it may have not been wide spread but it happened. Remember back in Vietnam the media didn't prob and probe the Presidency like they do now. While Kerry could've been a little bit more tactful in how he told the truth, he neverless told them. Look War is ugly, its hard, and while you're going to have alot of good decent men fighting, you are going to get a few bad apples. Example, the Iraqi Prison scandal. What I want to know is what would the Vietnam vet rather have? For people to think the whole Vietnam war was a walk in the part, or to have it shown for what it was. It was a hard war that failed due to bad policy and bad handling.

What caused our POW's untold suffereing were bad policies by the US government.

This statement is so incredibly innane that I didn't even want to address it at first. Let me see if I've got this straight ... the reason North Vietnamese military personnel tortured our captured soldiers and airmen was because our government had "bad policies???" Surely you jest!

I participated in the capture and interrogation of numerous Vietnamese prisoners. In NO cases did I ever see any mistreatment of these people, despite the fact that some of them were Viet Cong. As a matter of fact, if I had I would have reported it, and my commander would have taken immediate action against those perpetrating it. So why were our POWs treated so inhumanely ( and this treatment is well documented, so don't EVEN start trying to say they weren't! )?

Jane Fonda and John Kerry and others of their ilk not only caused additional suffering to other American citizens, through their stupidity and lies they actually prolonged the war by giving the North Vietnamese the idea that they could win the war through the press and "useful idiots" back home. They were correct in that idea. The Vietnam War wasn't lost by soldiers and airment and marines ... it was stolen by the press and the anti-war fanatics and others who operated as a fifth column within the US itself.

lol.

You make me laugh so much; I'll believe my dad's four years in Vietnam over yours any day... anyways, I was making a sacracstic statment that was obviously lost in your attempt to continue to self-dilude yourself into thinking that ALL vets are innocent when they're not.

Suit yourself. Your mind is obviously closed and nothing I can say or do is going to convince you otherwise. You don't even read what I type, so why bother? Nowhere did I ever indicate that I thought "ALL vets are innocent." I have no idea what bullshit your father has told you, but if he's a Kerry fan, I wouldn't trust HIS word anymore than I trust Kerry's.

Jane Fonda and John Kerry and others of their ilk not only caused additional suffering to other American citizens, through their stupidity and lies they actually prolonged the war by giving the North Vietnamese the idea that they could win the war through the press and "useful idiots" back home. They were correct in that idea. The Vietnam War wasn't lost by soldiers and airment and marines ... it was stolen by the press and the anti-war fanatics and others who operated as a fifth column within the US itself.

By the same logic, Bush should be tried for war crimes because he let the Abu Graib prison scandal happen.

By the same logic, Bush should be tried for war crimes because he let the Abu Graib prison scandal happen.

Damn he should've been court martialed when he went AWOL, that never happened.....

By the same logic, Bush should be tried for war crimes because he let the Abu Graib prison scandal happen.

Strawman, incongruent analogy, specious argument. The Abu Gharib perps were and are being prosecuted to the full extent of military law. 'Nuff said.

Damn he should've been court martialed when he went AWOL, that never happened.....

You people just never learn, do you? Bush never went AWOL ( it's unlikely you even know what that means, much less be able to adjudicate it ).

I will say this. All the men ON KERRY'S BOAT said he saved their lives. None of them are affiliated with the Swifties. John McCain, a high-profile Republican who campaigns for Bush, called on Bush to condemn the ads.

Most military folk are Republicans. Wow, a sizable number of veterans are coming out against Kerry now! Big surprise! The guy's running for president!

You people just never learn, do you? Bush never went AWOL ( it's unlikely you even know what that means, much less be able to adjudicate it ).

A.W.O.L.
Abscent Without Leave

Strawman, incongruent analogy, specious argument. The Abu Gharib perps were and are being prosecuted to the full extent of military law. 'Nuff said.

Do you even know what the people in those prisons were arrested for?

Just because Eutrusca doesn't beleive in checking his noise it doesn't mean that you shouldn't-
Here (http://factcheck.org/article244.html) and here (http://factcheck.org/article231.html)

Four months into Kerry's SECOND tour. O'Neil was hired by Nixon in the seventies to go after Kerry. Sorry man, if I'm supposed to dismiss AWOL allegations even though Occum's razor would dictate that Bush wasn't there, and dismiss CBS as a whole because one part of one story is wrong, then these dudes don't get my time. Sorry Bob.

Jane Fonda and John Kerry and others of their ilk not only caused additional suffering to other American citizens, through their stupidity and lies they actually prolonged the war by giving the North Vietnamese the idea that they could win the war through the press and "useful idiots" back home. They were correct in that idea. The Vietnam War wasn't lost by soldiers and airment and marines ... it was stolen by the press and the anti-war fanatics and others who operated as a fifth column within the US itself.
Strawman, wrongfull association, specious argument. The additionnal suffering perps were prosecuted to the full extent of military law. 'Nuff said.

See, I can use the same arguments you just used to destroy your point of view, hence

By the same logic, Bush should be tried for war crimes because he let the Abu Graib prison scandal happen.

The rules of debating has to be the same by both sides, you know.

Just because Eutrusca doesn't beleive in checking his noise it doesn't mean that you shouldn't-
Here (http://factcheck.org/article244.html) and here (http://factcheck.org/article231.html)

Four months into Kerry's SECOND tour. O'Neil was hired by Nixon in the seventies to go after Kerry. Sorry man, if I'm supposed to dismiss AWOL allegations even though Occum's razor would dictate that Bush wasn't there, and dismiss CBS as a whole because one part of one story is wrong, then these dudes don't get my time. Sorry Bob.

Too bad you didn't read the entire article ( Here (http://factcheck.org/article244.html) ): "The record gives no sign that Kerry doubted the stories he was relating."

Nowhere did I ever indicate that I thought "ALL vets are innocent."

Yes, you did. Incertonia spent hours arguing over your semantics that said all.

I have no idea what bullshit your father has told you, but if he's a Kerry fan, I wouldn't trust HIS word anymore than I trust Kerry's.

Actually, my dad is an ardent Bush supporter but would find your focus on John Kerry's Vietnam service to be laudable. It's not up to you to judge Kerry's service, only he can do that; what I find hilarious is that you make it seem like you're the only vet anyone can trust, going so far as to insult my father's account of Vietnam in the process.

I will say this. All the men ON KERRY'S BOAT said he saved their lives. None of them are affiliated with the Swifties. John McCain, a high-profile Republican who campaigns for Bush, called on Bush to condemn the ads.

Most military folk are Republicans. Wow, a sizable number of veterans are coming out against Kerry now! Big surprise! The guy's running for president!

"All of the men" on Kerry's Swiftboad did not say he "saved their lives," as a matter of fact a number of them who did say that later retracted their statements.

McCain has his own political agenda to push.

"... a sizable number of veterans are coming out against Kerry now!" Really? I wonder why? Could it be because they recognize what a total disaster he would be as President of a Country involved in a long-term war on terror? Hmm. Nahh! That would make too much sense, it's not "nuanced" enough for the "sensitive" approach to terrorism.

"Most military folk are Republicans." Really? Perhaps there's a valid reason for that. Maybe you should go and do likewise. :)

Too bad you didn't read the entire article ( Here (http://factcheck.org/article244.html) ): "The record gives no sign that Kerry doubted the stories he was relating."
and in the same paragraph-
"a lot of them (the atrocity stories) have been documented."
Too bad you didn't KEEP READING.

Yes, you did. Incertonia spent hours arguing over your semantics that said all.

Incertoria is wrong, IF he said that. Please do me the common courtesy of indicating exactly when and where I even hinted that I thought "all" Vietnam veterans are innocent of wrongdoing. One thing I DID say, though, is that I was stationed at Fort Bragg, NC when LT Calley was being courtmartialed for My Lia, and that I thought he was guilty. Reconcile that, if you can.

Actually, my dad is an ardent Bush supporter but would find your focus on John Kerry's Vietnam service to be laudable. It's not up to you to judge Kerry's service, only he can do that; what I find hilarious is that you make it seem like you're the only vet anyone can trust, going so far as to insult my father's account of Vietnam in the process.

If you thought I was insulting your father in any way, I apologize. That was not my intent. And I never really expected anyone on this extreme left-leaning forum to even believe me, much less accept me as "the only vet anyone can trust."

As to "judging" Kerry's service, the man made it a centerpiece of his campaign for President. As a citizen, I feel it is not only my right, but my responsibility to point out Kerry's amorality and opportunism. If you want to call that "judging" him, so be it.

As to "judging" Kerry's service, the man made it a centerpiece of his campaign for President. As a citizen, I feel it is not only my right, but my responsibility to point out Kerry's amorality and opportunism. If you want to call that "judging" him, so be it.

Now we're getting somewhere!

See, I never said that only Bush supporters or the Swiftboat Vets should leave this alone and just go on... I've been telling everyone to just leave this and go on.

I don't think it's a pertinent thing to sit here and debate, because frankly, I don't personally know what happened - as you and my father do - and so, how can I form a solid opinion validating one side or another?

I think both sides - Kerry and Bush - are playing this Vietnam like a trump card that shouldn't be played. Simple as that.

Suit yourself. Your mind is obviously closed and nothing I can say or do is going to convince you otherwise. You don't even read what I type, so why bother? Nowhere did I ever indicate that I thought "ALL vets are innocent." I have no idea what bullshit your father has told you, but if he's a Kerry fan, I wouldn't trust HIS word anymore than I trust Kerry's.

Of the Veterans I know, I would not trust your word, you've continually blamed one person for events the US is ultimately responsible for, I guess policy is unfalible. Your mind seems more closed than anyone else here. And your response to my statements show a complete lack of understanding beyond the basic elements. No, US policy is not to blame for NK's taking and torturing our people, but that policy does affect NK's position and hatred towards us, there is a right way to do things and a wrong way, our policy was the wrong way and made it harder to accomplish our goal. You have a very narrow way of looking at things, and you think because you're a Vet that you have an amazing insight. The Vet's I know, including many of my family, would disagree with your narrowmindedness of the situtaion 30 years ago and the complexities involved beyond "the reason North Vietnamese military personnel tortured our captured soldiers and airmen was because our government had "bad policies???""

And I never really expected anyone on this extreme left-leaning forum to even believe me, much less accept me as "the only vet anyone can trust."

.
First, let me get this out of the way; "WOLF! Seriously, no kidding-there is totally a wolf RIGHT OVER THERE!!! No really this time!"

And now, where might you have lost credibility, where you might have slid down the hill to be regarded as TRA class loon? Maybe it was here. (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=362859)