NationStates Jolt Archive

Freedom fighter or terrorist?

Hero or villain?

Neither. He is the head of government. :confused:

If someone wants proof Mugabe is a monster, I'll happily show them. It ain't pretty, though.

I think it must be emphasised that according to Western understandings of the words, a state entity can be neither freedom fighters nor terrorists. If he was a non-state player, depending on his actions, maybe. As it is, he's just a dictator.

I think it must be emphasised that according to Western understandings of the words, a state entity can be neither freedom fighters nor terrorists. If he was a non-state player, depending on his actions, maybe. As it is, he's just a dictator.

I was talking about back in the day when he worked to overthrow Ian Smith's government when I asked 'terrorist or freedom fighter?' 'Hero or villain?' addressed both Mugabe as President, as Mugabe in the old days.

Abominable Totalitarian A-Hole.

Abominable Totalitarian A-Hole.

Agreed. A racist one, too, I might add.

http://www9.sbs.com.au/theworldnews/region.php?id=96642&region=5

He tried to lock up his opposition leader. Luckily the Zimbabwe courts aren't as corrupt as him.

http://www9.sbs.com.au/theworldnews/region.php?id=96642&region=5

He tried to lock up his opposition leader. Luckily the Zimbabwe courts aren't as corrupt as him.

That's pretty bad, but nothing compared to what he and his thugs did to innocent Rhodesian blacks who refused to support him and his terroristic gangsters.

Mugabe is a punkass. I'm totally for land reform and redistributing landowner property back to the people from whom it was stolen, but the way he's doing it is hopelessly corrupt and stupid. He's giving the land out as rewards to political supporters, many of whom don't know jack squat about farming in the first place. Consequently, the people of Zimbabwe are nearly starving in a country that should NOT be having food problems.

Not to mention persecution of the opposition forces, of course.

In terms of African tinpot dictators I'd rank him somewhere below Seko and Mengistu in terms of nastiness and screwed up policies.

Mugabe is a punkass. I'm totally for land reform and redistributing landowner property back to the people from whom it was stolen, but the way he's doing it is hopelessly corrupt and stupid. He's giving the land out as rewards to political supporters, many of whom don't know jack squat about farming in the first place. Consequently, the people of Zimbabwe are nearly starving in a country that should NOT be having food problems.

Not to mention persecution of the opposition forces, of course.

In terms of African tinpot dictators I'd rank him somewhere below Seko and Mengistu in terms of nastiness and screwed up policies.

Seko=Zaire dictator, and Mengistu=Ethiopian dictator, right?

Yes. Seko was the kleptocrat who replaced Lumumba (thank you, Belgium). Mengistu overthrew the emperor and was the ruler of a "Communist", Soviet-backed Ethiopia. In reality communism and socialism were nothing but a front for Amhara internal imperialism and the crushing of the non-ruling nationalities by sticking them in "collectives" or "resettling" them where they could be starved to death.

Emperor Selassie was also an Amhara supremacist who persecuted the Tigreans, Eritreans and Oromos to be perfectly fair. The difference was, Mengistu did it much more efficiently. Many think the famine in Ethiopia during the 80's, or at least the effects thereof, was mostly his doing.

I'm glad nobody's come forward to defend Mugabe. :)

Yes. Seko was the kleptocrat who replaced Lumumba (thank you, Belgium). Mengistu overthrew the emperor and was the ruler of a "Communist", Soviet-backed Ethiopia. In reality communism and socialism were nothing but a front for Amhara internal imperialism and the crushing of the non-ruling nationalities by sticking them in "collectives" or "resettling" them where they could be starved to death.

Emperor Selassie was also an Amhara supremacist who persecuted the Tigreans, Eritreans and Oromos to be perfectly fair. The difference was, Mengistu did it much more efficiently. Many think the famine in Ethiopia during the 80's, or at least the effects thereof, was mostly his doing.

Ah, I thought so. Thanks for clearing things up. :)

I'm glad nobody's come forward to defend Mugabe. :)

How can anyone defend the indefensible?

How can anyone defend the indefensible?

Hey, you'd be surprised. There are people who defend Hitler, crazy as it may sound.

I guess you could defend them by saying that they were all once three years old and totally innocent, it just went all wrong somewhere along the way.

A prime example of the reasons for Africa being so bass-ackwards. Mix socialism and kleptocracy with cronyism and what do you expect? He ran off (or jailed and killed) the productive members of his society (black and white) and has more trouble admiting his mistakes than George W.

He's a corrupt dictator. He's going about land redistribution in just about the worst way possible. He is anti-civil liberties. However, at least he's not committing mass genocide (yet?) so he is not in the most "evil" category of dictators.

The worst African dictator ever was probably Idi Amin of Uganda. He was pretty much a black supremacist version of Hitler. Where Hitler had his Aryans, Amin was against everyone but the Kakwa tribe. His rule cost an estimated 300,000 Ugandans' lives. His reign was ended by a Tanzanian invasion in 1979. Funny how this sounds so like the Khmer Rouge of Cambodia.

Here are some books published in the 1970s by the government of what was then Rhodesia: Red for Danger; Massacre of the Innocents; Anatomy of Terror; and Murder of Missionaries. I haven't read them myself, but I heard of 'em. Considering that they have no authors, and that the Rhodesian governemnt no longer exists, you can bet they're damn near impossible to find.

His reign was ended by a Tanzanian invasion in 1979. Funny how this sounds so like the Khmer Rouge of Cambodia.

Yeah, it does. Both Pol Pot and Amin were overthrown by invaders in the same year (the Vietnamese and Tanzanians, respectively).

As for genocide, Mugabe is indeed guilty of committing it- against blacks and whites. If you have a super-strong stomach and a bucket ready, I can give you a link.

Like I said, I don't disagree with the program of land redistribution IN PRINCIPLE. But there are logical and coherent ways to go about it, like Mao's program in 50-58.

It's also worth noting WHY Mugabe put this program into place originally. At one time the UN, or somebody, was actually funding this land reform program by paying large holders the cash value of their land in order to redistribute it among the peasantry. Unfortunately allegations of corruption surfaced and external funding for the program was cut altogether.

I dunno. Maybe if we negotiated, maybe if we talked about it some more and gave Mugabe time to reform his policies without simply withdrawing all together we might have a different situation today. But really that's all guesswork. Mugabe probably was and always will be a kleptocrat despite his heroic part in the struggle against colonialism.

Like I said, I don't disagree with the program of land redistribution IN PRINCIPLE. But there are logical and coherent ways to go about it, like Mao's program in 50-58.

It's also worth noting WHY Mugabe put this program into place originally. At one time the UN, or somebody, was actually funding this land reform program by paying large holders the cash value of their land in order to redistribute it among the peasantry. Unfortunately allegations of corruption surfaced and external funding for the program was cut altogether.

I dunno. Maybe if we negotiated, maybe if we talked about it some more and gave Mugabe time to reform his policies without simply withdrawing all together we might have a different situation today. But really that's all guesswork. Mugabe probably was and always will be a kleptocrat despite his heroic part in the struggle against colonialism.

I favor land reform to a certain extent, as long as it doesn't mean taking land that someone is currently living on (in that case, I'd prefer financial compensation of some sort instead).

Btw, is his name pronounced "moo-gaw-bay," "mug-uh-bee," or other?

Yawn

I'm totally for land reform and redistributing landowner property back to the people from whom it was stolen, but the way he's doing it is hopelessly corrupt and stupid. He's giving the land out as rewards to political supporters, many of whom don't know jack squat about farming in the first place. Consequently, the people of Zimbabwe are nearly starving in a country that should NOT be having food problems.

seriously. you have to wonder if even he believes that he's creating a better system of land distribution. my guess is no.

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Btw, is his name pronounced "moo-gaw-bay," "mug-uh-bee," or other?

Anyone? :(

i think its moo gah and a sound halfway between bee and bay

i think its moo gah and a sound halfway between bee and bay

Thanks! :p

Anyone want to see the link?

Zimbabwe is one nation the US should have invaded just to get rid of Mugabwe, the Hitler of Africa.

the Hitler of Africa.

Agreed.

Zimbabwe is one nation the US should have invaded just to get rid of Mugabwe, the Hitler of Africa.

He wouldn't be in power if it wasn't for sleazeball Jimmy Carter.

I think it must be emphasised that according to Western understandings of the words, a state entity can be neither freedom fighters nor terrorists. If he was a non-state player, depending on his actions, maybe. As it is, he's just a dictator.
He not just a dictator. He's the African version of Adolph Hitler and all the civil wars in Africa in the 90's and today were instigated by him. He illegally has troops in several nations including the Democratic Republic of Congo (formerly Zaire), Uganda, Rwanda, Burundi. In fact, his special ops troops are directly responsible for provoking the genocide that occurred in those nations.
He tried to rekindle the civil war in Angola. He once tried to have the President of South Africa assassinated.
He has special operations troops in Liberia and Nigeria to keep those nations mired in civil conflict.
He has openly stated his support for Osama Bin Laden who he hails as a great hero.
He continues to engage in ruthless genocide against anyone who isn't black.
Upon gaining control of Zimbabwe's government, he legalized rape and forced prostitution.
Just a dictator? I think not, Robert Mugabwe is a genocidal son of bitch who needs to have his ass kicked and removed from power, and made to stand trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

He once tried to have the President of South Africa assassinated.

Which President?

Which President?
Remember Nelson Mandela?

Remember Nelson Mandela?

I do indeed.

He wouldn't be in power if it wasn't for sleazeball Jimmy Carter.
Jimmy Carter? What's his connections?

He continues to engage in ruthless genocide against anyone who isn't black.

He's killed far more blacks than he has whites, though.

I think it is most interesting that we can go in overthrow Saddam Hussein but then do nothing about Mugabwe who has done much worse than Saddam has.

Jimmy Carter? What's his connections?

He (like all U.S. Presidents, starting with Johnson) imposed sanctions on Rhodesia, did everything he could to undermine Ian Smith's government, collaborated with nations sympathetic to Mugabe and his gangsters, and openly supported Mugabe and his gang.

He's killed far more blacks than he has whites, though.
Mainly from ethnic groups than his. That is why I didn't specifically say white. Though he has killed a lot of whites.

He (like all U.S. Presidents, starting with Johnson) imposed sanctions on Rhodesia, did everything he could to undermine Ian Smith's government, collaborated with nations sympathetic to Mugabe and his gangsters, and openly supported Mugabe and his gang.
And well into the 90's our govt. was still supporting him. Then Bush comes along and slams sanctions on him. Its not enough but at least it was something. Finally.
I still think we should take military action against him.

Mainly from ethnic groups than his. That is why I didn't specifically say white. Though he has killed a lot of whites.

He's killed a lot of people. As you said, he's a bastard. If you have an especially strong stomach, I could show you some pictures of what he and his hellhound henchmen did to some of their victims.

And well into the 90's our govt. was still supporting him. Then Bush comes along and slams sanctions on him.

The first Bush, or the second?

The problem is, Ian Smith was a complete facist. No one knew at the time that Mugabe was also.

The first Bush, or the second?
Bush number 2, but he was pretty reluctant to do it.
Bush number 1 refused to do anything. Bush 2 couldn't ignore the outcry from the massive genocides Mugabwe was doing no matter how hard he tried to.
But the sanctions he imposed don't go far enough. They just basically copy what the EU already had in place.

The problem is, Ian Smith was a complete facist. No one knew at the time that Mugabe was also.
When we supported Castro we didn't know he was fascist either, nor did we know Saddam would turn out the way he did.

The problem is, Ian Smith was a complete facist. No one knew at the time that Mugabe was also.

If you believe the human rights hypocrites, then yes, Smith was a fascist. Otherwise, you'll find that he was the farthest thing from a fascist.

When we supported Castro we didn't know he was fascist either, nor did we know Saddam would turn out the way he did.

We knew Castro was communist all along. Read, for example, The Fourth Floor, by Earl E.T. Smith (the last U.S. ambassador to Cuba).

He's killed a lot of people. As you said, he's a bastard. If you have an especially strong stomach, I could show you some pictures of what he and his hellhound henchmen did to some of their victims.
I believe I've seen enough photos of his victims. People having their arms hacked off for the entertainment of their attackers, women mutilated then being raped.
Children being raped then murdered in cold blood or having all their limbs chopped off.
I dare anyone to tell me that Mugabwe is not a Hitler.

I believe I've seen enough photos of his victims. People having their arms hacked off for the entertainment of their attackers, women mutilated then being raped.
Children being raped then murdered in cold blood or having all their limbs chopped off.
I dare anyone to tell me that Mugabwe is not a Hitler.

Ugh. Those are even worse than the photos I saw. Do you have a link? I know a few people who need some 'enlightening' as to who and what Mugabe really is.

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Ugh. Those are even worse than the photos I saw. Do you have a link? I know a few people who need some 'enlightening' as to who and what Mugabe really is.
I saw them a few years back. When I ran for Congress I was advised not to take a position on the grounds that what was happening in Africa was none of our business and Americans have the false impression that Africa is a bunch of people running around in underwear and carrying spears. Tell that to the African militia groups.
Ironic that genocide in Africa in none of our business but how one man in the mideast runs his nation is.
As for posting them, the mods would have check them over cause they are so graphic as to be rated not for children or those with weak stomachs.

I saw them a few years back. When I ran for Congress I was advised not to take a position on the grounds that what was happening in Africa was none of our business and Americans have the false impression that Africa is a bunch of people running around in underwear and carrying spears. Tell that to the African militia groups.
Ironic that genocide in Africa in none of our business but how one man in the mideast his nation is.

Ironic, and sad.

Who said Mugabe was 'A Hero!'?

:mad:

Twas the gnomes.

I thought that i'd be the only person and so decided to break the trend by voting for "a hero". someone got there first. He is of course " My saviour" (that's a joke, calm down no need to include a :mad: in your scolding post in reply) :D

Mugabe is disgusting. He and his followers effectively destroyed the prosperity their area was experiencing during the war against communism, and set a good example of what would happen later on in South Africa and what is currently busy happening in Israel. His own megalomania and desentization got in the way of him rebuilding what he damaged and doomed the ideologies of the people who are now sitting in the corrupted, dictatorial government. If it wasnt for the "buddybuddy" stance wit South African government, the South Africans would have already done something about this. Thabo may not be eager to punish Mugabe but a lot of the people and lower government officials would disagree.

Who said Mugabe was 'A Hero!'?

:mad:

Letila seems to follow the Pan-Africanist ideals, based on some of the sources and tales he manages to conjure. Perhaps it was him.

http://home.wanadoo.nl/rhodesia/terrorism.html

http://home.wanadoo.nl/rhodesia/innocents.html

http://home.wanadoo.nl/rhodesia/mission.htm


First-hand evidence of Mugabe's savagery.

Portrait of Mugabe, the Hitler of Africa:

http://www.usafricaonline.com/mugabe.zimbabwe.gif
is it me or is there similarity between his salute and that of the Nazis?

Stack of arms owned by a Pro Mugabe militia, one of the same militias responsible for gross genocide:
http://www.freewebs.com/zfm2004/6.jpg

www.amnesty.ca/slideshow/ 2003/threat5.html

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2004/02/15/2003098844

Under Mugabe, Zimbabwe's Constitution was changed to make him pretty dictator of this impoverished land.
news.bbc.co.uk/.../ newsid_305000/305719.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/305000/images/_305719_farmers300.jpg&imgrefurl=http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_305000/305719.stm&h=180&w=300&sz=15&tbnid=xHKzjWr1aukJ:&tbnh=66&tbnw=110&start=4&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dzimbabwe%2Bland%2Breform%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/305000/images/_305719_farmers300.jpg&imgrefurl=http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_305000/305719.stm&h=180&w=300&sz=15&tbnid=xHKzjWr1aukJ:&tbnh=66&tbnw=110&start=4&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dzimbabwe%2Bland%2Breform%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

www.edcnews.se/Research/ ZimPoliticide.html
According to this site, there are 11,000 Zimbabwe's troops illegally in the DRC.
It includes reports of rapes and tortures,

http://www.edcnews.se/Research/Zimbabwelogging.html
http://www.edcnews.se/Reviews/DRC-OXFAM.html
The above links note that Mugabe is raping and looting the DRC of its resources. The first thread reports that Zimbabwe is destroying DRC's rainforests.
The second thread states: Oxfam said that while security considerations had some legitimacy, they did not justify the levels of foreign troop deployment in the Congo. "Although troop numbers may have reduced in some areas, deployment is increasingly concentrated in mineral-rich areas," it said.

The organisation drew attention to the fact that Zimbabwean troops are deployed in Kasais and Katanga, areas rich in diamonds, copper, cobalt and timber.
While different actors have justified their involvement in the war on the basis of security, it is clear that one of the driving forces behind the conflict is a desire by the warring parties to have access to, and control over, the DRC's vast natural resources. This wealth is not being used to reduce poverty, either in the DRC or in other countries involved in the war. In fact, wealth from natural resources is sustaining the war and bad governance. Such military activity has been described as 'military commercialism'. Natural resource exploitation has become a key factor in determining military deployment, perpetuating the cycle of violence. Against a backdrop of deteriorating governance, this is very worrying.
4.High-level, co-ordinated political engagement by key governments (especially the UK, US, France, and Belgium), together with the EU, is needed to work towards sustainable peace in the region and a complete withdrawal of foreign forces from the DRC.This engagement should involve intense shuttle diplomacy by a well-respected international person under the auspices of the UN, and should complement the process of the Inter-Congolese Dialogue (ICD).
7.A UN arms embargo should be imposed on all countries directly involved in the conflict, and on those acting as staging posts for arms supplies. The EU should strengthen its voluntary 1993 arms embargo to one which is legally binding on member states, and widen its scope, as with the UN embargo.

http://www.edcnews.se/Reviews/DRC-ICGreport011116.html

http://www.edcnews.se/Reviews/DRC-UN010412Links-B.html

Mugabe has been personally benefitting from this rape:
http://www.edcnews.se/Reviews/Taylor2001.html
In Zimbabwe, Robert Mugabe's ministers, generals, relatives and close associates have accrued substantial personal benefits from the pillaging of the Congo.

As regards the exploitation of natural resources, Zimbabwe was reported to be "the most active" of the countries

Seems to me the only way to address this problem is via international military action to remove this Nazi from power and bring him to justice before the International Criminal Court.

Mugabe has an honorary PhD. from my school... 3 conservative professors on campus objected, but it did no good. Sums up my belief about liberals. :sniper:

I think it is most interesting that we can go in overthrow Saddam Hussein but then do nothing about Mugabwe who has done much worse than Saddam has.

dont know about that

both are murderous scum who have killed many people and both need/needed to be removed from power

shouldnt be the US doing it though, it shouldnt be us Aussies either... hmmm atleast we have got rid of one

Mugabe is a punkass. I'm totally for land reform and redistributing landowner property back to the people from whom it was stolen, but the way he's doing it is hopelessly corrupt and stupid. He's giving the land out as rewards to political supporters, many of whom don't know jack squat about farming in the first place. Consequently, the people of Zimbabwe are nearly starving in a country that should NOT be having food problems.

Not to mention persecution of the opposition forces, of course.

In terms of African tinpot dictators I'd rank him somewhere below Seko and Mengistu in terms of nastiness and screwed up policies.

Exactly my thoughts.

0% = My savior!

No Mugabe mafia here? :mp5:

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