NationStates Jolt Archive

Welcome to the new exclusive club for people who don't know whether there is a god or not and, frankly, don't care!

Here you can relax by the fire with a whisky (or whiskey if you're that way inclined), safe in the knowledge that if there is a god, and he/she/it is so great, then as long as we live a good life we won't burn in damnation for eternity. And, there is no god, well, then we haven't wasted our weekends.

To enter, simply demonstrate that you know the difference between agnosticism and atheism - it's quite simple really:

Agnostics don't know if there is a god or not;

Atheists believe there is no god.

It's quite simple, but no one on this site seems to know it. Atheists are religious to the extent that they have a belief despite being unable to prove it, and agnostics realise there is no way to prove anything, so stop worrying about it, and don't get upset when other people profess their faiths. You'll never catch us starting a war!

Take a seat. I'll put the kettle on.

Welcome to the new exclusive club for people who don't know whether there is a god or not and, frankly, don't care!

Here you can relax by the fire with a whisky (or whiskey if you're that way inclined), safe in the knowledge that if there is a god, and he/she/it is so great, then as long as we live a good life we won't burn in damnation for eternity. And, there is no god, well, then we haven't wasted our weekends.

To enter, simply demonstrate that you know the difference between agnosticism and atheism - it's quite simple really:

Agnostics don't know if there is a god or not;

Atheists believe there is no god.

It's quite simple, but no one on this site seems to know it. Atheists are religious to the extent that they have a belief despite being unable to prove it, and agnostics realise there is no way to prove anything, so stop worrying about it, and don't get upset when other people profess their faiths. You'll never catch us starting a war!

Take a seat. I'll put the kettle on.

I'm not agnostic, but I would like some tea. Y'got any English Breakfast?

I'm not so much an agnostic as an apathetic. It's not so much that I don't know whether there is a god, but more that I don't care.

EDIT: I'm drinking redbush most of the time now.

I'm not agnostic, but I would like some tea. Y'got any English Breakfast?

Welcome to the club!!

You too Independent Homesteads!! Say, d'ya do kitchen ranges? We haven't quite finished decorating in here yet.

I do not know if I want to join this or not...

Welcome to the club!!

You too Independent Homesteads!! Say, d'ya do kitchen ranges? We haven't quite finished decorating in here yet.

So, are we shifting into Sims 2 mode? In that case, what's the most "agnostic" color? Or we could have some wallpaper that patterned with a six-pointed star, cross, crecent, and darwin fish! Ooo! And we definetly need a WWTWWWFD sign above the kitchen (what would the world-wide wrestling federation do?)

So, are we shifting into Sims 2 mode? In that case, what's the most "agnostic" color? Or we could have some wallpaper that patterned with a six-pointed star, cross, crecent, and darwin fish! Ooo! And we definetly need a WWTWWWFD sign above the kitchen (what would the world-wide wrestling federation do?)

I'm not sure about WWE, but I could definitely make room for a fun sumo ring!

Los Banditos, don't be shy, come on in!!

It was a joke but what the hell...

I'm not sure about WWE, but I could definitely make room for a fun sumo ring!

Los Banditos, don't be shy, come on in!!

If we're going with a sumo ring, we totally need those foam body suits. My pathetic 150 pound body wouldn't last 5 minutes in sumo.

Welcome to the new exclusive club for people who don't know whether there is a god or not and, frankly, don't care!

Here you can relax by the fire with a whisky (or whiskey if you're that way inclined), safe in the knowledge that if there is a god, and he/she/it is so great, then as long as we live a good life we won't burn in damnation for eternity. And, there is no god, well, then we haven't wasted our weekends.

To enter, simply demonstrate that you know the difference between agnosticism and atheism - it's quite simple really:

Agnostics don't know if there is a god or not;

Atheists believe there is no god.

It's quite simple, but no one on this site seems to know it. Atheists are religious to the extent that they have a belief despite being unable to prove it, and agnostics realise there is no way to prove anything, so stop worrying about it, and don't get upset when other people profess their faiths. You'll never catch us starting a war!

Take a seat. I'll put the kettle on.

I'm not sure I should be here. (edit: <= not intended as a joke, before you ask! ) I count myself Agnostic, but my view is slightly differerent, as can be read here (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7193313&postcount=582), but that's an argument that could run as long as any theistic/non-theistic one... :)

(I also later conceded that it appeared that my own personal use of the word 'belief' seemed to be far more restricted than the dictionary definitions suggest, and that maybe it did cover 'opinion' as well as 'faith' in normal conversation...)

I am not actually agnostic but I was at one time. I guess you can call me sympathetic to the cause.

I'm not sure I should be here. I count myself Agnostic, but my view is slightly differerent, as can be read here (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7193313&postcount=582), but that's an argument that could run as long as any theistic/non-theistic one... :)

(I also later conceded that it appeared that my own personal use of the word 'belief' seemed to be far more restricted than the dictionary definitions suggest, and that maybe it did cover 'opinion' as well as 'faith' in normal conversation...)

Come, come, let's not split hairs!

Put your feet up; have an Earl Grey.

I am not actually agnostic but I was at one time. I guess you can call me sympathetic to the cause.

And sympathy's a virtue we should all strive for! Bravo, old chap!

If we're going with a sumo ring, we totally need those foam body suits. My pathetic 150 pound body wouldn't last 5 minutes in sumo.

Well, you'd probably trounce me then! How about a spot of bar billiards instead? Loser buys the first round this evening - what do say, eh, what-what?

I have a fairly well defined set of personal beliefs, but on the issue of an all mighty being, I don't know. I wouldn't say I don't care; if God suddenly appeared in Times Square I'd probably at least be watching the news.

*Perches on a floor lamp.*

So here I am. :D

Come, come, let's not split hairs!

Put your feet up; have an Earl Grey.

Any lemon?

I have a fairly well defined set of personal beliefs, but on the issue of an all mighty being, I don't know. I wouldn't say I don't care; if God suddenly appeared in Times Square I'd probably at least be watching the news.

*Perches on a floor lamp.*

So here I am. :D

That's really quite an entrance - how about I fix you a brandy? I'm sure I can find you a red velvet dressing gown, pipe and slippers too - there should be enough for everybody!

Do you count as an agnostic I' you dont Give a Fuck?

Well, you'd probably trounce me then! How about a spot of bar billiards instead? Loser buys the first round this evening - what do say, eh, what-what?

I can only assume you're Brittish for the time being. So I accept your challenge as a Scotsman.

AYE, YE DAFT WEE ONE YE! YER BILLIARDS WILL BE MINE YE GREAT STUPID LUMMOX!!!

That's really quite an entrance - how about I fix you a brandy? I'm sure I can find you a red velvet dressing gown, pipe and slippers too - there should be enough for everybody!

The thought is appreciated, but I don't drink. Or wear clothes, for that matter.

But I'm always partial to some good music. What do you have to listen to?

Any lemon?

Would I have it any other way?

That's really quite an entrance - how about I fix you a brandy? I'm sure I can find you a red velvet dressing gown, pipe and slippers too - there should be enough for everybody!

Hooray! Nothing beats the cold nights like sweet, sweet brandy.

The thought is appreciated, but I don't drink. Or wear clothes, for that matter.

Ah, we have a special room for your sort - just down the corridor on the left.

But I'm always partial to some good music. What do you have to listen to?

Why, English classical music of course!

I can only assume you're Brittish for the time being. So I accept your challenge as a Scotsman.

AYE, YE DAFT WEE ONE YE! YER BILLIARDS WILL BE MINE YE GREAT STUPID LUMMOX!!!

Ah, meeting the Auld Enemy on neutral ground and then having a drink to celebrate afterwards - there really is nothing like it!!

Seeing as I struggle to comprehend my existance on this pointless realm, I guess you can call me agnostic... I'll take an English breakfast and a bowl of marshmellows.

Ah, we have a special room for your sort - just down the corridor on the left.



Why, English classical music of course!

That'll do.

I should probably mentioned that I'm a bird. Literally, like feathers and everything.

And I peaked in the room down the hall on the left. It doesn't open from the inside, so I'll pass.

Ah, meeting the Auld Enemy on neutral ground and then having a drink to celebrate afterwards - there really is nothing like it!!

Hehe. You realize you pretty much described Valhalla, right?

Seeing as I struggle to comprehend my existance on this pointless realm, I guess you can call me agnostic... I'll take an English breakfast and a bowl of marshmellows.

Out of marshmallows, I'm afraid, but I'll make sure we're stocked up for the camping trip next weekend. Spiffing!!

That'll do.

I should probably mentioned that I'm a bird. Literally, like feathers and everything.

And I peaked in the room down the hall on the left. It doesn't open from the inside, so I'll pass.

Yes, an old practical joke, I'm afraid - we love 'em here!

Hehe. You realize you pretty much described Valhalla, right?

Hey, we agnostics aren't fussy about which heaven we spend our eternity in!

Yes, an old practical joke, I'm afraid - we love 'em here!

Yes, well.. I'll just make sure to watch where I stand. And what I eat.

Yes, well.. I'll just make sure to watch where I stand. And what I eat.

brmph!!

And where you sit!! Watch out for that whoopee cushion!

brmph!!

And where you sit!! Watch out for that whoopee cushion!

I always thought agnostics had the best sense of humour

brmph!!

And where you sit!! Watch out for that whoopee cushion!

Sitting.. Standing.. Same thing for me.

*Pops the whoopie cushion with a talon, sending it flying across the room in a rush of air.*

Whopee!

Out of marshmallows, I'm afraid, but I'll make sure we're stocked up for the camping trip next weekend. Spiffing!!

oh damn... well, how about some jolly good muffins then? with the jam filling?

(I can't believe I'm taking the piss out of my own culture...)

Hey, we agnostics aren't fussy about which heaven we spend our eternity in!

Yeah. I know. Just wanted to point it out. You know what? I don't think I have much time left for that game. I think I'd better just buy the first round now.

Yeah. I know. Just wanted to point it out. You know what? I don't think I have much time left for that game. I think I'd better just buy the first round now.

Why not, old bean?

By the way, yes we have muffins. Just don't ask for marshmallows.

...or croissants

...or gherkins

...or quail

...or ugali (but I doubt anyone will want that anyway, unless we have some East Africans here

...or picallilly

Apart from that we're alright!!

...ooh, no sherbert lemons either, the delivery was cancelled this week.

Why not, old bean?

By the way, yes we have muffins. Just don't ask for marshmallows.

...or croissants

...or gherkins

...or quail

...or ugali (but I doubt anyone will want that anyway, unless we have some East Africans here

...or picallilly

Apart from that we're alright!!

...ooh, no sherbert lemons either, the delivery was cancelled this week.

Got any blood pudding back there?

Got any blood pudding back there?

Yes, I have.

Sorry it took a while, but I was doing a bit of advertising on the anti-Catholics thread.

Here you go.

Yes, I have.

Sorry it took a while, but I was doing a bit of advertising on the anti-Catholics thread.

Here you go.

Thanks! And don't worry. I was reading that thread too. I felt like posting, but everything was already said. I'd rather chill with my blood pudding. Anyway, I'm going now. I really should finish my astro homework.

Thanks! And don't worry. I was reading that thread too. I felt like posting, but everything was already said. I'd rather chill with my blood pudding. Anyway, I'm going now. I really should finish my astro homework.

No, you really should take a look. It's a lot more interesting now.

Gimme!

*scoffs muffins wildly*

mmm... muffins.

I am not actually agnostic but I was at one time. I guess you can call me sympathetic to the cause.

What, have you discovered God? Or have you been everywhere in the universe and not found It?

Easy tiger, you'll give yourself indigestion.

And did you say grace before you... oh, hang on...

What, have you discovered God? Or have you been everywhere in the universe and not found It?

I saw some things that made me believe. I saw enough that led me to believe in God.

I saw some things that made me believe. I saw enough that led me to believe in God.

wow. I think you should be expelled from the agnostic society. But I'm not sure that you should. And since I don't care what you believe, maybe you shouldn't. I just don't know. Or care.

What did you see? Miracles?

wow. I think you should be expelled from the agnostic society. But I'm not sure that you should. And since I don't care what you believe, maybe you shouldn't. I just don't know. Or care.

What did you see? Miracles?

The criteria for joining were knowing the difference between agnostic and atheist, and accepting other people for what they believe.

So, he can stay (well, I'm not a moderator, so I can hardly kick him out anyway).

Well done Los Banditos, I couldn't do it.

wow. I think you should be expelled from the agnostic society. But I'm not sure that you should. And since I don't care what you believe, maybe you shouldn't. I just don't know. Or care.

What did you see? Miracles?

I would not call it miracles. More like signs. It is kind of hard to explain so I usually do not go into detail. And really, even if I could explain, it would mean very little to anyone else; not to mention the fact that it would probably not change anyones beliefs.

By the way, it is nice to see a thread with people respecting each other for once. My hat goes off to you, Torching Witches.

By the way, it is nice to see a thread with people respecting each other for once. My hat goes off to you, Torching Witches.

And so it should, sir! We are indoors.

And so it should, sir! We are indoors.

respect and manners too. is their no end to our gentility? (Can I see that without an implied anti-semitic slur?)

I do not know if I want to join this or not...

I am not sure this thread exists to join in or not.

[/sarcasm]

PS. I am somewhere between agnostic/deist/atheist/pantheist depending on which day of the week you catch me on, the above was meant in good fun.

P.P.S. Any single malt lovers in the house?

I am not sure this thread exists to join in or not.

[/sarcasm]

PS. I am somewhere between agnostic/deist/atheist/pantheist depending on which day of the week you catch me on, the above was meant in good fun.

P.P.S. Any single malt lovers in the house?

Pull up a chair beside the fire!!

Ah, here we go!

Bump!

<van stops out side and uncerimosioulsy dumps kellarly, a crate of budvar, a coffee table made from famous religious texts and a sofa with a harry potter book for its missing leg out side the agnostics unite! old residence>

well heres all the stuff from the other place :D

<van stops out side and uncerimosioulsy dumps kellarly, a crate of budvar, a coffee table made from famous religious texts and a sofa with a harry potter book for its missing leg out side the agnostics unite! old residence>

well heres all the stuff from the other place :D

Technically it's the same place - just in the next room, infact. Careful though - it's an exact mirror image.

Technically it's the same place - just in the next room, infact. Careful though - it's an exact mirror image.


what mirror?!

<bang>

ouch........oh that one.....

I need a muffin

I need a muffin

Third cupboard on the left, top shelf. Here, stand on this Bible.

well, at least i got here in the end....

<settles back on the sofa and turns up the music>

SHINE ON YOU CRAZY DIAAHHHMOND!!!!!!

<dances about playin ari guitar>

oh all right :mad:

back to english classics it is :)

Third cupboard on the left, top shelf. Here, stand on this Bible.

MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUFIN!

MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUFIN!


<a mule comes running throught the door and stands by R3D M4G3>

*scratches head and wonders where that mule came from*

I always thought agnostics had the best sense of humour
Yes we do

*scratches head and wonders where that mule came from*


<throws grass out the window and the mule runs off>

damn tv characters....

hey mule! :sniper: :mp5:

<throws grass out the window and the mule runs off>

damn tv characters....
TV characters? I got a whole list of ones I'd like to invite

TV characters? I got a whole list of ones I'd like to invite


oh no, i hate to think what i have just started

What if I don't believe in atheists? This is very confusing....

What if I don't believe in atheists? This is very confusing....
No you beleive there could be atheists but you're yet to be convinced.

Right! And there is no such thing as sumo either, dammit to hell! Not that I believe in hell....Dammit! Stop confusing me!

Here's an interesting thread on Militant Agnosticism (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=362457&highlight=Militant+Agnosticism) I started a while back - the 1st response is actually quite funny

Right! And there is no such thing as sumo either, dammit to hell! Not that I believe in hell....Dammit! Stop confusing me!


Ah but if you stop being confused, you might actually be certain about something, and when your agnostic thats walking a very fine line ;)

Excellent point. Although I'm not entirely certain I should believe you.

Exactly the right answer :D

(I guess I'm not agnostic if I'm making sacrifices to that bronze idol in my back yard, right? Sorry, Hill-God. We've had our fun, but these guys have tea and woopee cushions. Uncertainty.... on.)
So, anyone heard a convincing argument from an atheist lately? All I've ever got is "There's no empirical evidence".... okay, so give me some rational evidence? No?
Alright. I'll check with the fundamental christian down the street.... Hi, Grandma! Proof of God is the Bible, you say? That's rather convenient...

Kellarly, you dont happen to be in the vicinity of Cologne? Then we could meet for a real Budvar. ;)

Kellarly, you dont happen to be in the vicinity of Cologne? Then we could meet for a real Budvar. ;)


nope, i'm in friedrichshafen on the bodensee, but thanks for the offer. on the point of having a real budvar...i visited the brewery a few years ago :D that was a never-to-be-forgotten experience

I was wondering...
Aren't agnostics just atheists (rationalists)?
I'll give you an example:
There is chocolate.
Some people eat chocolate.
Some people don't eat chocolate.
The others don't want to bother with the whole chocolate issue, but, still, don't go out and eat chocolate.
Yes, I suppose the analogy could have been better.
Being religious is an active thing.
Whether you don't participate because you are vehemently against it or just don't care, you still don't participate, and, therefore, are an atheist (being outside/without religion).

I was wondering...
Aren't agnostics just atheists (rationalists)?
I'll give you an example:
There is chocolate.
Some people eat chocolate.
Some people don't eat chocolate.
The others don't want to bother with the whole chocolate issue, but, still, don't go out and eat chocolate.
Yes, I suppose the analogy could have been better.
Being religious is an active thing.
Whether you don't participate because you are vehemently against it or just don't care, you still don't participate, and, therefore, are an atheist (being outside/without religion).
Atheism means you've come to a conclusion about an issue, and so does, say, monotheism. Agnosticism means you don't come to a conclusion, and you don't think you can.

The "chocolate" in your analogy could be religion, or prayer, and that's true, but belief in God doesn't really work... it's more like there's chocolate (Believe in God) AND vanilla (Atheism), and the agnostic doesn't eat either. So really, we're watching our weight so don't tempt us with your cake!

Atheism means you've come to a conclusion about an issue, and so does, say, monotheism. Agnosticism means you don't come to a conclusion, and you don't think you can.

The "chocolate" in your analogy could be religion, or prayer, and that's true, but belief in God doesn't really work... it's more like there's chocolate (Believe in God) AND vanilla (Atheism), and the agnostic doesn't eat either. So really, we're watching our weight so don't tempt us with your cake!


damn it i am so hungry after reading that!!

Are there scones as well as muffins? Also, I'd like a nice Chai Latte if its available....

As for the supreme...why would you WANT to know?

I saw some things that made me believe. I saw enough that led me to believe in God.

I am a fellow agnostic, which I feel makes me curious.
Oh! the cruellty, Los Banditos! Please describe something of your signs. I can't stand the suspense. It might not make sense to me, but the curiousity is making me itch!

God, I would venture, is made of wiggles.

I've seen them too. I've seen several things. But not just to believe in God, because I can't say I ever met the individual.

What I've seen tells me something else is out there. However, whatever is out there and possibly put me here didn't do it so that I would kneal every Sunday and give my thanks.

I didn't know that Agnostic meant that you hadn't made any choice on god. So how about me? I believe there is something, but I am not prepared to say what, nor do I believe I was put here to worship it. Am I still Agnostic? Or do I have to go and join The Holy Church of Non-Deciders who Don't Pray?

I'm so lost....
a secondary definition for "agnosticism" has come into use, whereby you are agnostic as long as you express doubt about God's existence but don't claim to be a full atheist. that definition is sticky and imprecise, in my opinion, so i stick to the original meaning of the agnostic orientation, which means that you believe there is no way for you to know about whether or not God exists. if you are simply undecided about God's existence then that is slightly different, and if you believe there IS a God but you don't know what form he/she/it takes then that is also different from "full" agnosticism. if you believe that you can experience evidence proving the existence of "something higher" then you aren't agnostic in the classic sense; i don't know that there is a name for your position, but i would just say that you are "undecided" for now.

a secondary definition for "agnosticism" has come into use, whereby you are agnostic as long as you express doubt about God's existence but don't claim to be a full atheist. that definition is sticky and imprecise, in my opinion, so i stick to the original meaning of the agnostic orientation, which means that you believe there is no way for you to know about whether or not God exists. if you are simply undecided about God's existence then that is slightly different, and if you believe there IS a God but you don't know what form he/she/it takes then that is also different from "full" agnosticism. if you believe that you can experience evidence proving the existence of "something higher" then you aren't agnostic in the classic sense; i don't know that there is a name for your position, but i would just say that you are "undecided" for now.

Will you be my friend? :)

I've seen them too. I've seen several things. But not just to believe in God, because I can't say I ever met the individual.

What I've seen tells me something else is out there. However, whatever is out there and possibly put me here didn't do it so that I would kneal every Sunday and give my thanks

I agree with you. When I say that I believe in God, I say it as I now know there is some kind of higher power. I would not call myself a normal Christian. I do not go to church every Sunday (though I do make appearances), I do not force my beliefs on others, and I sort of believe in evolution. A non-denominational Christian, if you will.

God, I would venture, is made of wiggles.

...with tassles on his ends, might I add.

If you don't want to divulge, then
two can play at that game.

I have seen things that make me a non-believer of God. But I'm not telling either.

Thought I'd bring a bit of love back into the room. I'm off to lunch now, though. Make yourselves at home in the meantime.

Shit, have I already posted in this thread? I can't remember anymore and can't be bothered checking.

Anyway, I'm agnostic as a few of you already know.

Yes, I think you did post, but the important thing is that no one knows and no one cares. Everyone is welcome here, but hurry, I've only got fifty goodie bags!

Yup agnostic here too

Only 49 left!

Only 49 left!

and me! well i am kinda sympathetic to budhism, but i can still claim agnosticism on the fact it truly don't know if we can ever know whether god exists or not!

and me! well i am kinda sympathetic to budhism, but i can still claim agnosticism on the fact it truly don't know if we can ever know whether god exists or not!

You don't have to be agnostic for a goodie bag - just tolerant. Ooh, ooh, what did you get, what did you get?

(48 to go)

Well, after all the eating of pastries and drinking of favorite beverages, I see some actual discussion has broken out! :) I'd like to pull up a chair with my hot cocoa and add my 2 cents...

When people try to tell me that agnostics don't believe in anything, I get annoyed at them. Of course we believe in something: we believe that a human being cannot really "know" for sure about the existence (or non-existence) of a higher being. We're human, so the most honest - and most difficult - position to take is to live with uncertainty.

Humans don't like uncertainty, reminds me of the observation that nature abhors a vacuum. The human mind seems to have a deep need to find a reason for everything, a need to explain why something exists or happens. Seems to me that many centuries ago, when we were confronted with so many things we could not explain, we naturally invented a one-size-fits-all explanation: the gods. Over time, theists generally decided that a single god worked better than having multiple gods (I'm not sure why, since having multiple gods was probably more entertaining and made for better stories and myths). But the widespread psychological need for explanations for the unknown continues, and this need continues to be met by the widespread belief in some kind of god.

Personally, I just accepted what I was taught without question up until the age of 17, when I took a required course about the various religions of the world, and realized I was free to decide these things for myself. So after a lot of soul-searching, I concluded that the answer to the big question is simply unknowable. If I had to make a bet, I would bet against the existence of god, I really don't see any credible evidence. But I'm not willing to rule out the possibility - there have been so many very wise people over time who were/are theists that I am humble enough to say that maybe I'd lose that bet.

OK, sorry, more than 2 cents, I'll just sip my cocoa now... :p

Thanks for the input, IL! Here, have this...oh, I think I've broken something in that one - eggs, I think. Never mind, take this goody bag instead. What have you got?

Only 47, er, 46 to go!

It's like I always say. There's nothing an agnostic can't do when he's really not sure whether he believes in anything or not.

FREEDOM IN INDECISION!!!

I think we already had a motto (We Don't Know and We Don't Care?) - but what the hell, let's replace it with this one!! Thanks Stroudiztan, if that is your real name.

Silly "agnostics" and your homoerotic desire to sit on fences.

Silly "agnostics" and your homoerotic desire to sit on fences.

It's only homoerotic if you share the experience with other people of the same sex. Personally, I like to sit on fences on my own - it's soloerotic!

Explain this thread then, fag. :mad:

Gee, that was a witty comeback... :rolleyes:

Notice the pressure people want to apply to those who "sit on the fence" - there is supposed to be some superiority in committing to one side or the other, and some kind of shame in not making this kind of commitment. Human nature showing itself.

In reality, hopping off the fence to the theist or atheist side, to get away from this uncertainty, is actually the easy way out. I think it takes more courage and mental fortitude to stay in the space of uncertainty and embrace our limitations as humans. To make a leap of faith and "believe" something that is unprovable, to convince yourself that you "know" something you cannot actually perceive, is to deny the perceptual and cognitive limitations of our species.

Only those who sit on the fence can actually get a clear view of what is going on all around them. Everyone else can only see what is happening on their own side of the fence.

I have cheesecake, Coke/Pepsi, and Knob Creek Whiskey for all! (Who are Agnostic)

Why hello there, fellow agnostics! I too am unsure of the existence of a god, and if there is one, I sure dont believe in hell! I'm glad to have met you all!

Hooray, the thread is back! I will have to pass on the cheesecake I guess. However, I will take one of those nifty goody bags....Sweet! A pinecone!