NationStates Jolt Archive

All of you people who say that their rights are being taken have never read this document, right? You just heard someone paraphrase it for you. Well now here is your chance to read it and I DARE any of you to show me where our civil rights as Americans are being taken away.

http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

Yeah, sure. I'll read that some time when I have forty-five minutes of free time on my hands...

No, really, I will. I meant that to sound sarcastic because it's ridiculous to expect somebody to read that whole thing, but I actually will read it later when I have some time.

Wether or not it takes away civil rights isnt the point, What it does do is make it easier for the government to abuse its power. Which I suppose would fall into the same catagory.

If people haven't read it, then how can they claim thier freedoms are being taken away when they get their information from biased networks who paraphrase it to their own meaning?

I had particular interest in the part concerning libraries since I work in one. I read that section half a year ago. I'd say that having my record available to any police officer is a violation of my privacy.

That's the thing. You CAN'T read it alone. It's just a list of instructions. It adds and amends to laws already in the books. You have to have the PATRIOT Act and the books of laws that it adjusts to read it properly.

Wow you were quick.

And what do you mean network. I sure as hell dont get my information from any mainstream news network. I prefer A little more depth than A thirty second spot.

Besides. Have you read the patriot act? More importantly have you read all the other relevant legislation? Because to understand its effects you would have to. In fact to understand the patriot act in its entireity it would probably need to be your full time job.

All of you people who say that their rights are being taken have never read this document, right? You just heard someone paraphrase it for you. Well now here is your chance to read it and I DARE any of you to show me where our civil rights as Americans are being taken away.

http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html
it doesnt take away anyones civil rights per se, it just allows for a very easy way to do it if the government wanted

all you have to do is declare some one a terrorist, provide minimal evidence, which can be acquired through "sneak and peak" tactics that allow quick searches WITHOUT a warrant (roo roo uncosntitutional mobile coming through), and BAM you disappear without access to lawyer, official charge, or a word to anyone

All of you people who say that their rights are being taken have never read this document, right? You just heard someone paraphrase it for you. Well now here is your chance to read it and I DARE any of you to show me where our civil rights as Americans are being taken away.

http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html
Delayed warrents come to mind...

Section 213, authority for delaying the notice of the execution of a warrant, let's them search your property without your knowledge if a judge finds that there is "reasonable cause." Now what, pray tell, is reasonable cause? It's completely subjective, and plenty of people out there think that simply being a Muslim is "reasonable cause." I might dig through there some more later, but I've got homework to do, so I'll leave it at that for now.

Wow. I'f you wanted to do that why even bother to legislate it?
Oh thats right, As A rubber stamp and A smoke screen to keep partisans on side.

First of all, giving a link to a revisionary document without the original document /or/ the actual revised document isn't very useful. Reading whole sections of "Replace section xxx.yy after the period with 'and electronically.'" And electronically what?

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:HR03162:@@@L&summ2=m&

Secondly, it removes the requirement of having a judge issue a warrent for information entirely for specific cases. It allows the FBI to issue "national security letters," that requirs telephone companies and Internet providers to hand over personal information on customers. Government lawyers can issue the letters whenever they conclude the information is "relevant" to a terror investigation.

While most searches require a judge's approval, this type doesn't. In addition, the companies are not allowed to tell anyone about the government request, which can easily be interpreted as barring their right to discuss the matter with an attorney.

The act allows agents to see everything a targeted person does on the Internet, whom the person telephones, what movies he rents and where and how he uses credit cards.

That's not impinging on our liberties? What about innocent until proven guilty?

"Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin

Just think about that quote

It's not about the specifics, it's about the concept. What the "Patriot Act" (so aptly and subliminally named I might add) is basically saying that it gives the PRESIDENT authority. Now, what happened to that whole checks and balances thing?

First, it's email interception. What's next? I don't want to sound like an alarmist, but it's happened before, and I'm not surprised it might happen again. When we got my Russian great grandfather a tv he decided he would cover it up with a blanket because he thought the government could look in on him...not because he was paranoid...but that's the way it was in Russia! Why not in the states?

And the fact that it was so sneakily passed wasn't all too hot either....what other civil liberties will disappear from under our noses?

If people haven't read it, then how can they claim thier freedoms are being taken away when they get their information from biased networks who paraphrase it to their own meaning?


Ohohoho....biased networks eh? Once again, it's not black and white, it is many shades of grey, and it's not the media's job to think FOR the people.

By the way, don't get me started on Fox.

Wether or not it takes away civil rights isnt the point, What it does do is make it easier for the government to abuse its power. Which I suppose would fall into the same catagory.


What he said ^

Wow, that's a miniscule 181 pages at 1152x864 resolution. Yikes.

It skirts needing to have a pesky search warrant to enter your premises, so long as you are not there. That sounds rather like it is in direct conflict of the fourth amendment to me, the right to be secure in your person, personal effects and papers unless you are seved a warrant.

The definition for "possible terrorist" is so nebulous it could indeed be construed to mean just about anyone, for any reason.

Of course, there always have been plenty of people who believe it couldn't happen to them... or that it was for the common good...

"Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin

Just think about that quote

Specious. It still has yet to be shown what "essential" liberty has been given up, and the safety we need is neither "little" nor "temporary."

All liberty is essential. When you start to lose it you know society is sliding backwards.

Wether or not it takes away civil rights isnt the point, What it does do is make it easier for the government to abuse its power. Which I suppose would fall into the same catagory.

Indeed, that's it. It allows for civil rights to be taken, and for the government to more easily intrude upon peoples' lives as it sees fit.

Specious. It still has yet to be shown what "essential" liberty has been given up, and the safety we need is neither "little" nor "temporary."
I think it's pretty ironic when an avowed neo-con like yourself starts wanting the government to be it mommy and daddy. That is what the conservatives used to say about the liberals.

As an old line conservative I believe the dilution of basic rights is a loss of those rights. I don't trust the government anymore than the government trusts me.

The problem with your position is that it promotes a government of the government by the government. The dead at Gettysburg must be spinning in their graves.

God, i feel sorry for the poor chap who has to write the whole damn act! Thats like 900 pages of political jargon!

Someone I know, not heard of or conjectured, someone I know was held for five days without charges or access because her mother tipped that she was a threat. Because they got in an argument. Ridiculous, Jerry Springer-ish? Absolutely. Happened? Yes, yes it did. Could it have happened without the patriot act? No. She lost her new job, the one she was using to get her life back on track.

Say it didn't happen, say it's worth the cost, say she deserved it. Do whatever it takes to make you feel all warm and fuzzy about it, but I know what it has allowed and am not going to wait for them to come for me before I say something.

When they came for the jews, I asn't jewish, so I didn't do anything
When they came for the homosexuals, I wasn't homosexual, so I didn't do anything.
When they came for the gypsies, I wasn't a gypsy, so I didn't do anything
When they came for me, there was nobody to do anything.

Finally, it took 2 pages to find someone whose life this actually effected.

Finally, it took 2 pages to find someone whose life this actually effected.

You act like that's a long time...especially in the face of an argument like, "None of these Lib-ruls who complain about the Patriot Act can cite a single case of rights being taken away!" Such a sweeping statement, surely whoever believed it would be surprised to see it disproven.

It only took two pages to refute that? And now you're going to act like that's nothing? Who are you trying to convince?

Someone I know, not heard of or conjectured, someone I know was held for five days without charges or access because her mother tipped that she was a threat. Because they got in an argument. Ridiculous, Jerry Springer-ish? Absolutely. Happened? Yes, yes it did. Could it have happened without the patriot act? No. She lost her new job, the one she was using to get her life back on track.

Say it didn't happen, say it's worth the cost, say she deserved it. Do whatever it takes to make you feel all warm and fuzzy about it, but I know what it has allowed and am not going to wait for them to come for me before I say something.

sherman austin was pressured to take a plea bargain after being threatened with a patriot act enhanced 20 year sentence. he served a year in jail over it, and is still under an extremely restrictive probation. the crime? hosting a website not authored by him that had a small section filled with publicly available info about making explosives.

Untitled

our freedom of speech has been taken away
thrown in a jail cell for something you say
whether its true or it be a lie
mention al queda you might as well die
what freedom will this country lose next?
or do we have none...this country's a mess
top secret government conspiracy
i now see the flaw in de"mock"racy
throw out Gore's ballots, George Bush is a fake
taking money from schools, for free"dumbs" sake
drop bombs on Iraq, then send them some food
where's reason in that, i haven't a clue
Freedom of life has been taken from me
as i wonder....will we ever be free?

I think it's pretty ironic when an avowed neo-con like yourself starts wanting the government to be it mommy and daddy. That is what the conservatives used to say about the liberals.

As an old line conservative I believe the dilution of basic rights is a loss of those rights. I don't trust the government anymore than the government trusts me.

The problem with your position is that it promotes a government of the government by the government. The dead at Gettysburg must be spinning in their graves.


You make the mistake of thinking neo-conservatives have anything at all to do with 'conservatives' as they have been known for the last ten decades.

You make the mistake of thinking neo-conservatives have anything at all to do with 'conservatives' as they have been known for the last ten decades.
Actually no, I was making the point that there is a sharp difference between the two. Sometimes the shades of variation seem to be lost with opposing views held to be either facist or left wing loony.

Neo-Cons like to say they are pragmatists. Which is a nice way of saying they will do anything it takes to secure power.

Americans arent really history buffs, so we will have to repeat the history we could have avoided.

Lots of countries have had "patriotic laws" for "public safety" and "national security." China, Cuba, North Korea, ww2 Japan, The Soviet Union, Colombia.

No one who has had the presence of mind to read men like Solzhenitsyn can possibly consider something called the "USA PATRIOT Act" to be anything but the first steps towards fascism.

Especially from a governmnet that gleefully puts into use Orwellian language (clear skies act, healthy forest initiative, etc).

Americans arent really history buffs, so we will have to repeat the history we could have avoided.

Lots of countries have had "patriotic laws" for "public safety" and "national security." China, Cuba, North Korea, ww2 Japan, The Soviet Union, Colombia.

No one who has had the presence of mind to read men like Solzhenitsyn can possibly consider something called the "USA PATRIOT Act" to be anything but the first steps towards fascism.

Especially from a governmnet that gleefully puts into use Orwellian language (clear skies act, healthy forest initiative, etc).
Ya just gotta get over being an armchair pundit. As someone else has pointed out, by the time you realize which part of history it is you are repeating, it is pretty far along.

That bit of legislation passed while America, Congress included, was in shock. Subsequent attempts to expand it's provisions and to extend the deadline for some of them in 2005 have not been nor will they be met with that same shock. America is more diverse, and smarter than your elitist delusions of superiority allow.

Ya just gotta get over being an armchair pundit. As someone else has pointed out, by the time you realize which part of history it is you are repeating, it is pretty far along.

That bit of legislation passed while America, Congress included, was in shock. Subsequent attempts to expand it's provisions and to extend the deadline for some of them in 2005 have not been nor will they be met with that same shock. America is more diverse, and smarter than your elitist delusions of superiority allow.

More than a third of americans actually and genuinely believe that the bush mob is running america well.

Come november 3rd we shall see just how smart america is.

So where does the Armchair pundit part come in, or was that just an unnecessary flame?

This 'patriot act' sound more like a victory for terrorists than a deterrant. After all, their job is to spread fear and terror across the world. Now the government that created the patriot act can instill fear in its own population! And it does, even if the act itself is actually good (which is debateable).

One example of how it works from my country (mind you, I don't even life where the Patriot Act counts). Not too long ago a morrocan family had their house searched by the police. The tip came from the national intelligence service AIVD. These two groups coöperate only narrowly, and the AIVD is usually secretive about its informants. The tip came from an airport worker who was a collegue of the father of the family. The police turned the place upside down causing damage, interrogated the people present at the time, and when they couldn't find the bombs that where rumored to be in the building they left with a grunt, in a "next time you will not be so lucky" kind of way. There hasn't been any indicator that they are even going to compensate for the damage. All in all, the police acted on a tip from an intelligence service that recieved a flimsy confession from a possibly spitefull and uncredible source.

This is just like how the patriot act works. The FBI can go for racial stererotypes to search property without telling the owner anything. Actually, it's just a bit worse because they don't have the guts to confront the owner directly. America is returning to the time when communists where hunted like witches and innocents could be interrogated for days for having socialist ideals (and this is the complete oppisite of exaggerating). Of course, let's not forget there is no way to persecute American war criminals without getting your country invaded.

This 'patriot act' sound more like a victory for terrorists than a deterrant. After all, their job is to spread fear and terror across the world. Now the government that created the patriot act can instill fear in its own population! And it does, even if the act itself is actually good (which is debateable).

One example of how it works from my country (mind you, I don't even life where the Patriot Act counts). Not too long ago a morrocan family had their house searched by the police. The tip came from the national intelligence service AIVD. These two groups coöperate only narrowly, and the AIVD is usually secretive about its informants. The tip came from an airport worker who was a collegue of the father of the family. The police turned the place upside down causing damage, interrogated the people present at the time, and when they couldn't find the bombs that where rumored to be in the building they left with a grunt, in a "next time you will not be so lucky" kind of way. There hasn't been any indicator that they are even going to compensate for the damage. All in all, the police acted on a tip from an intelligence service that recieved a flimsy confession from a possibly spitefull and uncredible source.

This is just like how the patriot act works. The FBI can go for racial stererotypes to search property without telling the owner anything. Actually, it's just a bit worse because they don't have the guts to confront the owner directly. America is returning to the time when communists where hunted like witches and innocents could be interrogated for days for having socialist ideals (and this is the complete oppisite of exaggerating). Of course, let's not forget there is no way to persecute American war criminals without getting your country invaded.


"Hmmm, terrorists want to spread fear, disrupt life, and take away freedoms...how are we supposed to stop them?"

"I KNOW! Let's do all that BEFORE them! That'll show them!"

First off, I've only skimmed the Act, but this has been what I've heard.
It seems like a lot of people are blindly against just because of things they heard.

There are supporters that say it's just updating new laws so we can track terrorists onto the internet and track them in ways we were already able to do for domestic crime.

Then I hear others, who seem most sensible, that recognize that the bill had good intentions but contains ambiguous language in some spots that could lead to abuse in the future. These people would say that the act needs just a little cleaning up to make it good.

Another thing, I've mostly heard that enforcement officers still need to go through the judicial system to have permission to survey suspects and things like that. Some people, however, say that they no longer do. I tend to believe the former on this very important aspect of the argument, but I don't know for sure. I guess I should read it more closely.

Also, if anyone has any information to clear this up, they should post passages from the actual act to prove their point. It seems this thread thus far has been almost exclusively heresay with little to no evidence from the act itself to prove any point. I think this was exactly what the original poster was talking about.

All of you people who say that their rights are being taken have never read this document, right?Actually I have read it, quite a while back.

How about Sec 215? The FBI can spy on you if it says it's "to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities". It doesn't need to show probable cause before or after the fact, nor indeed that the spying is indeed related to "international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities".

How's that dare working out for you, Wolfenstein?

I'm sure WC will be back tomorrow. If WC wasnt it'd be just rude.

Yes, the Patriot Act was definitely a good thing. /sarcasm

Abuses of Patriot Act 1 (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/21/attack/main564189.shtml)
Abuses of Patriot Act 2 (http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Patriot_Act_abuses)
Abuses of Patriot Act 3 (Scroll down to "Alleged abuses under the PATRIOT Act") (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act)

Any law or act that can be used to abuse even ONE person's rights should be tossed out of the books.

Wow WC never did come back. That is rude.

You'd think we get a prize or something.

You'd think we get a prize or something.

cookies for everyone!

[B]All of you people who say that their rights are being taken have never read this document, right?
I notice quite early on it mentions spending $200million a year just on one anti-terrorism project.

Has anyone worked out how much these measures cost in total and how that money could have been better spent? The number of lives saved by anti terrorist panic measures must pale into insiginificance compared to the number of malnourished children or malarial old people could have been saved with that sort of expenditure.

The Patriot Act is largely an extension and slight enlargement of the RICO act passed to fight organized crime. The laws and abilities that the Act gives Law enforcement the FBI and such has had for years, just only in racketeering cases. PA extends some of those powers to local law enforcement and allows them in terrorism invesitgation.

So its not anything new. Its been around 30 years. People just decided to throw a fit about it now for partisan reasons. So far, the PA has not interfered with my life or affected me or anyone I know in any way.

So, basically put, pull your heads out of your asses people and realize you're being used. This is not a huge attack on civil rights, nor was it 30 years ago when it was first passed. a bunch of political hacks decided to make it an issue and scare everyone, and a bunch of you bit, hard. STOP BEING USED!

What first got my dander up was the whole orwellian references to its name.

Funny how its an extension of powers used for fighting crime. Yet those fighting the "War on terror" insist it must be fought as part of A military campaign.

cookies for everyone!

Wha? I want a cookie!!!

Then take one! BAM!

The Patriot Act is largely an extension and slight enlargement of the RICO act passed to fight organized crime. The laws and abilities that the Act gives Law enforcement the FBI and such has had for years, just only in racketeering cases. PA extends some of those powers to local law enforcement and allows them in terrorism investigation.It allows them in investigations that the authorities say are terrorism investigations. Unlike the RICO act, the measures to make sure the authorities don't use the act inappropriately are pathetically weak. And there is a lot more in the act that really doesn't have any relation to RICO legislation, I wouldn't call it "largly" an extension of RICO.

So far, the PA has not interfered with my life or affected me or anyone I know in any way.That's nice. I'm a Canadian, middle class white male. I don't have much to worry about from the act either. Doesn't make that true for everybody.

Still no prizes....

For the life of me I cannot find a single right that I have that has been taken away by the Patriot Act. Nope, not one. My life has not been affected one bit by it. Of course I do not live in fear of anything either, so maybe that is the difference. Neither terrorism nor government abuse frighten me or keep me from living my life the way I want to live it. I will not be frightened into submission of anything.

All of you people who say that their rights are being taken have never read this document, right? You just heard someone paraphrase it for you. Well now here is your chance to read it and I DARE any of you to show me where our civil rights as Americans are being taken away.

http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

If you can't describe it yourself in a shortened version you most likely don't get what is written there.

For the life of me I cannot find a single right that I have that has been taken away by the Patriot Act. Nope, not one. My life has not been affected one bit by it. Of course I do not live in fear of anything either, so maybe that is the difference. Neither terrorism nor government abuse frighten me or keep me from living my life the way I want to live it. I will not be frightened into submission of anything.

Well, Biff claims that he hasn't been affected personally despite all the other examples of people that HAVE been personally affected. I guess Biff's claims trump the others. :rolleyes:

Well, Biff claims that he hasn't been affected personally despite all the other examples of people that HAVE been personally affected. I guess Biff's claims trump the others. :rolleyes:

He still hasn't given us any sources. :D

God, i feel sorry for the poor chap who has to write the whole damn act! Thats like 900 pages of political jargon!

Really? You should not feel sorry for such people. They are unduly rewarded for their efforts.

The Patriot Act is a ridiculous piece of legislation. The simple fact that virtually all of congress voted for it without reading it is reason enough to despise it. Before any law is passed, it must be shown to have clear meaning, to be constitutional, and to be necessary. Obviously, this never happend. Nobody has ever made the case for this law, and the burden of proof remains on the supporters.

There is much in the Patriot Act that bothers me. In fact, there's nothing I'm aware of in the act that I'm okay with. The whole damn thing is nothing but an expansion of power by the federal government. In particular, the vague definition of terrorism, the sections on money laundering, and the expanded surveillance powers bother me. I find the whole damn thing indefensible.

For the life of me I cannot find a single right that I have that has been taken away by the Patriot Act. Nope, not one. My life has not been affected one bit by it. Of course I do not live in fear of anything either, so maybe that is the difference. Neither terrorism nor government abuse frighten me or keep me from living my life the way I want to live it. I will not be frightened into submission of anything.

You say that now but wait until people who generally post on political messageboards are targeted. If your politically active, then your a target of oppression for an opressive government.