NationStates Jolt Archive

Yesterday both Zeppistan and I posted threads about an investigation into a group doing voter registration in several states linked to the Republican National Committee that was accused of destroying Democratic registration forms before turning them in to the county clerk. That's a felony in a lot of places. But the story was a little scanty on details.

Well, the LA Times has hooked us up. (http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-na-sproul14oct14,1,3532412.story)

Here's the basics: a group named Sproul and Associates has a voter registration outfit. They've been working in Nevada and Oregon among other places, and now the Oregon Attorney General is investigating them for voter fraud. Who are Sproul and Associates? The allegations involve a voter registration drive conducted by Sproul & Associates, a Phoenix-based consulting organization that was hired by the RNC earlier this year and is headed up by the former executive director of the Arizona Republican Committee, Nathan Sproul. The article is full of other descriptions of shady activities by Sproul and his folks, but here's the real issue. Why won't the RNC just come out and condemn this guy and what he's been accused of doing? Why don't they just say "we don't believe in this kind of stuff, and we're suspending our contract with this guy until the investigation is complete"?

But they haven't done that--all they done is this. RNC officials acknowledged Wednesday that Sproul was paid to conduct the registrations. But they characterized the controversy as a Democratic "ploy" and charged that supporters of Sen. John F. Kerry had engaged in rampant voter fraud that had gained less attention. No condemnation of the actions, no repudiation of the man or his actions--just a "well, the other guys are doing it but you just don't know about it." What, are we back in third fucking grade? If they've got proof that the Democrats are doing the same thing, then bust them on it--with proof, not innuendo--and in the meantime, get your shit together and toss the guy out on his ass.

Unless, of course, you wanted him to do this all along.

they are republicans, do you honestly expect an intelligent fair response? dotn count on it. they acknowledge they are PAYING sproul for this, hello RNC is encouraging voter fraud.

Hmmm. A bit like last time. No Republicans/Bush supporters popping in to defend or repudiate these folks.

It's been all over the new heres in Vegas. I overheard the people working at the DMV were talking to each other about it saying it was the same group of people registering voters just outside their front door!

I can't understand why the RNC would not condemn this!

All you ever hear the Replicons saying is "the Dems do it too!" But where is the proof? This is going to be another stolen election and noone is going to do anything about it despite the proof just like the 2000 election it looks like. This country is going to hell more and more it seems.

Hmmm. A bit like last time. No Republicans/Bush supporters popping in to defend or repudiate these folks.

sure seems to happen a lot, doesn't it? i wonder if it's because they approve or if its because they just instinctively avoid any situation that might show them what their party is really like?

It's been all over the new heres in Vegas. I overheard the people working at the DMV were talking to each other about it saying it was the same group of people registering voters just outside their front door!

I can't understand why the RNC would not condemn this!

All you ever hear the Replicons saying is "the Dems do it too!" But where is the proof? This is going to be another stolen election and noone is going to do anything about it despite the proof just like the 2000 election it looks like. This country is going to hell more and more it seems.I mean, it's a no brainer. You come out and condemn it in the strongest possible terms, even if you were telling the guy to do it all the while. That's basic public relations, because if you let it fester, then it'll kick you even harder in the nuts later on.

Just bumping in hopes that a Republican will chime in on this issue.

Over an hour, and still no Republican replies???

Didn't realize it had been that long, but it sure seems that way. I have to say it's more than a little disappointing. I know plenty of Republicans personally who would be disgusted by this. I'd be equally disgusted if it were the Democratic party. Hell, I was pissed at a Democratic politician in Maryland yesterday for making the argument that we need a publicly available list of people with HIV/AIDS because he said they're a health hazard. I don't want that kind of shit in my party, and I've never even set foot in maryland. So imagine how I'd feel about blatant electoral fraud.

Didn't realize it had been that long, but it sure seems that way. I have to say it's more than a little disappointing. I know plenty of Republicans personally who would be disgusted by this. I'd be equally disgusted if it were the Democratic party. Hell, I was pissed at a Democratic politician in Maryland yesterday for making the argument that we need a publicly available list of people with HIV/AIDS because he said they're a health hazard. I don't want that kind of shit in my party, and I've never even set foot in maryland. So imagine how I'd feel about blatant electoral fraud.
you forget: the GOP don't deal in shades of grey. if you are going to be their sort of conservative then you have to defend all conservatives all the time, without exception, and condemn all liberals all the time, without exception. expressing discontent with The Party is verboten.

Didn't realize it had been that long, but it sure seems that way. I have to say it's more than a little disappointing. I know plenty of Republicans personally who would be disgusted by this. I'd be equally disgusted if it were the Democratic party. Hell, I was pissed at a Democratic politician in Maryland yesterday for making the argument that we need a publicly available list of people with HIV/AIDS because he said they're a health hazard. I don't want that kind of shit in my party, and I've never even set foot in maryland. So imagine how I'd feel about blatant electoral fraud.
thats really a combination problem. there is a concern for public safety v the concern for personal privacy. i'd think people should be able to find out if the person they are going to be with has hiv or aids, but i would also think the general public doesnt need to know

you forget: the GOP don't deal in shades of grey. if you are going to be their sort of conservative then you have to defend all conservatives all the time, without exception, and condemn all liberals all the time, without exception. expressing discontent with The Party is verboten.

This is exactly the logic that caused the local democratic canidate for the senate here to humiliate herself grandly by accusing her opponent of being "anti-choice" simply because he was a republican. Dino Rossi is by no means "anti-choice" despite her ramblings about his disrespect for the right to choose. Viewing the republicans as a monolithic institution is incorrect. Viewing them as a tightly knit, professional group which compotently help each other out and exchange data collected at lower levels is correct, this was one of the major things that assisted bush in the debates.

I'd wager TheOneRule has some smarmy BS to cover the repubs on this one, factual or otherwise.
Runners-up would have been Biff and Friends of Bill, but who knows what FOB is up to these days ....

Back to the topic at hand though...I really hope this gets a lot of media attention, because this is a horrible, blatant show of disrespect for the law and the democratic process.

Links:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/14/nevada.registration/index.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,135411,00.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,135382,00.html
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=163941
http://www.lisnews.com/articles/04/09/21/1110206.shtml?tid=28
http://www.ala.org/Template.cfm?Section=news&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=76329

I'd wager TheOneRule has some smarmy BS to cover the repubs on this one, factual or otherwise.
Runners-up would have been Biff and Friends of Bill, but who knows what FOB is up to these days ....
FOB is still around, just goes by another name. And I have faith in TheOneRule--I think he'll call the Republicans out on this one. I'm curious as to what Purly Euclid would say. He used to be pretty open-minded on this stuff.

The RNC response is telling of a rising trend-I hesitate to apply it soley to the right, but that's where I have seen it the most. Either way, whoever does it, it doesn't matter-it bodes badly no matter who. The idea, it seems, is not to be better, rather just as bad. How often have we had to read defenses of Bush's short comings with "Clinton got a blowjob!" Incertonia nailed the mentality-third grade. It's not about being better, not setting the high watermark, rather the lowest. It's this mentality that will eventually lead us all down the drain.

Just bumping in hopes that a Republican will chime in on this issue.

Is there something new and differant about this thread than the previous one on this topic? I got a link to a bunch of Democratic voter fraud issues. Ill post em if you want, but I dont really see the point until someone is actually convicted of this. Even then, it still isnt much of an issue in my eyes.

I can only hope that the govt will crack down upon it. I doubt that will happen though because both parties do it AND it is part of how they keep third parties out of the process.

You need huge organizations throughout the country these days in order to make a run for office. Third parties simply do not have the infrastructure to compete.

Is there something new and differant about this thread than the previous one on this topic? I got a link to a bunch of Democratic voter fraud issues. Ill post em if you want, but I dont really see the point until someone is actually convicted of this. Even then, it still isnt much of an issue in my eyes.

I can only hope that the govt will crack down upon it. I doubt that will happen though because both parties do it AND it is part of how they keep third parties out of the process.

You need huge organizations throughout the country these days in order to make a run for office. Third parties simply do not have the infrastructure to compete.
Please do post them. From everything I've heard about this case, it sounds pretty damn shady, and that's why I'm condemning it. It's just that, as someone mentioned before, it seems to be that there's more of this type of thing coming from the Republican side, at least from what I've been hearing. For that matter, if anyone has any information at all about voter fraud from either side, feel free to post links here. I want to hear about it.

Please do post them. From everything I've heard about this case, it sounds pretty damn shady, and that's why I'm condemning it. It's just that, as someone mentioned before, it seems to be that there's more of this type of thing coming from the Republican side, at least from what I've been hearing. For that matter, if anyone has any information at all about voter fraud from either side, feel free to post links here. I want to hear about it.


here is one that took all of 2 seconds for me to find on google. It doesnt really go as indepth as I would like, but its pretty good for 2 seconds
http://billhobbs.com/hobbsonline/cat_voter_fraud.html

here is another one stating that ACORN (a voter registration group) threw out republican registration cards and paid their employees for democratic ones. They also intentionally registered felons(who hadnt gotten the clemency thing so they could vote)

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/10-13-2004/0002275937&EDATE=


edit: here is a google search result page I used the keyword democratic so I am assuming it will give me mostly democratic ones instead of the republican ones.

http://news.google.com/news?q=voter+registration+fraud+democratic&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=nn&oi=newsr

here is one that took all of 2 seconds for me to find on google. It doesnt really go as indepth as I would like, but its pretty good for 2 seconds
http://billhobbs.com/hobbsonline/cat_voter_fraud.html
OK, but just by briefly skimming this page, it's easy to tell it's a blatantly pro-Republican page.

OK, but just by briefly skimming this page, it's easy to tell it's a blatantly pro-Republican page.

it appears that way to me. So what?

they are republicans, do you honestly expect an intelligent fair response? dotn count on it. they acknowledge they are PAYING sproul for this, hello RNC is encouraging voter fraud.
That's right, because only Repubs engage in voter fraud. Honestly, the issue isn't their political leaning, it is the fact that they are all politicians. If you haven't learned by now that they all lie, or stretch the truth as far as they can at the least, then you have absolutely no clue how our country is run. Whether Dems or Repubs are in office, the same shit goes on. I won't defend this Sproul character, but neither will I condemn the RNC for activities that occur on the same scale all over the country, orchestrated by both Dems and Repubs. Get a clue, they all lie. Of course, perhaps I'm just an ignorant Republican who is too close-minded to see the truth about all politicians, and not just ones that I disagree with.

OK, but just by briefly skimming this page, it's easy to tell it's a blatantly pro-Republican page.
Which means it is equally as trustworthy as CBS and good ol' Dan Blather.

it appears that way to me. So what?
I tend not to trust blatantly biased sources too much :)
After a few quick Google searches myself, I haven't found any accusations of voter fraud against Dems in this year's election from a reasonably unbiased site. Which isnt' to say I don't think there's none going on, but again, I don't think it goes on at as large a scale as it does with Republicans. In a perfect world, there would be NO voter fraud. The world today is just pretty f'ed up. :)

Which means it is equally as trustworthy as CBS and good ol' Dan Blather.
But if you look at my previous post, I also included links to this topic from Fox News, CNN, and a few others. As a matter of fact, I didn't even link to CBS. I didn't find anything there.

here is another one stating that ACORN (a voter registration group) threw out republican registration cards and paid their employees for democratic ones. They also intentionally registered felons(who hadnt gotten the clemency thing so they could vote)

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/10-13-2004/0002275937&EDATE=


edit: here is a google search result page I used the keyword democratic so I am assuming it will give me mostly democratic ones instead of the republican ones.

http://news.google.com/news?q=voter+registration+fraud+democratic&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=nn&oi=newsr
The ACORN story sounded familiar, so I googled it, and came up with this. (http://www.rense.com/general58/apparentvoterregistration.htm) Sounds like ACORN had a mole to me.
TALLAHASSEE, Fla (AP) -- The Florida Department of Law Enforcement is investigating 1,500 voter registration forms received by the Leon County (Tallahassee Fl.) elections office that apparently were altered to register local students as Republicans.

County elections supervisor Ion Sancho said it was suspicious enough that the registration forms were all photocopies, but the new voters were also between the ages of 18-24, a group that often registers with no party affiliation.

"When we saw that all of these individuals were registered as Republicans, a buzzer went off," Sancho said.Most were students at Florida A&M University, Florida State University or Tallahassee Community College. The office began calling the applicants, contacting a couple of dozen before deciding to turn the voter forms over to the FDLE.

"Once it became clear that their information did not jibe with the information on the application forms, that's when we decided to act," Sancho said.

"The overwhelming majority of them had not selected the Republican Party as the party they wanted to be registered in."

The Leon County case is one of several being looked at around the state. In some cases, there are reports of bogus addresses, forms coming in with false information and registered voters who are being reregistered without their knowledge.

In St. Petersburg, former Mayor Charles Schuh received a letter saying he was ineligible to vote in the Aug. 31 primary because his registration application wasn't received on time. He later learned that the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now had turned in a registration form with his correct name, address and phone number, but the wrong date of birth, final four digests of his Social Security number and gender.

"If I could find the guy I would make sure he was prosecuted for fraud and forgery. They could have stopped me from voting in the primary," Schuh, an attorney, said Tuesday. "That's wrong, dead wrong." He was allowed to vote after showing elections officials his voter registration card and telling them the incorrect registration application wasn't submitted by him. Schuh said the registration form with his name was turned over to the state attorney's office along with 14 others that appear fraudulent.

State Attorney Bernie McCabe said all appeared to be turned in by ACORN.

"It does not appear right now that it can result in any impact on the election because the phony people aren't going to be voting, but it certainly creates a lot of work for everybody," McCabe said. "The supervisors of elections have enough on their plates than worrying about people turning in phony cards."

While he said ACORN is willing to help investigators, he said the problem appears to be caused by paid workers falsifying forms in order to make quotas.

"When you put quotas on people, you're asking for trouble," McCabe said. Brian Kettenring, the head organizer for Florida ACORN, said, "We take these 1,500 cards as seriously as the 212,298 that we collected this past year. And for that reason we are working with the state attorney to insure the integrity of every registration.

The ACORN story sounded familiar, so I googled it, and came up with this. (http://www.rense.com/general58/apparentvoterregistration.htm) Sounds like ACORN had a mole to me.


I dont know how you get "mole" from that, but whatever the case turns out to be it would fail to surprise me.

What does surprise me is all you guys/girls getting so excited by this or by people thinking only 1 party engages in this sort of behaviour. Im sure this goes on in most countries.