NationStates Jolt Archive

Partisan actions reach a new low...

From: http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2421595&nav=168XRvNe

Employees of a private voter registration company allege that hundreds, perhaps thousands of voters who may think they are registered will be rudely surprised on election day. The company claims hundreds of registration forms were thrown in the trash.

...

The I-Team has obtained information about an alleged widespread pattern of potential registration fraud aimed at democrats. Thee focus of the story is a private registration company called Voters Outreach of America, AKA America Votes.

The out-of-state firm has been in Las Vegas for the past few months, registering voters. It employed up to 300 part-time workers and collected hundreds of registrations per day, but former employees of the company say that Voters Outreach of America only wanted Republican registrations.

Two former workers say they personally witnessed company supervisors rip up and trash registration forms signed by Democrats.

"We caught her taking Democrats out of my pile, handed them to her assistant and he ripped them up right in front of us. I grabbed some of them out of the garbage and she tells her assisatnt to get those from me," said Eric Russell, former Voters Outreach employee.

Eric Russell managed to retrieve a pile of shredded paperwork including signed voter registration forms, all from Democrats. We took them to the Clark County Election Department and confirmed that they had not, in fact, been filed with the county as required by law.

So the people on those forms who think they will be able to vote on Election Day are sadly mistaken. We attempted to speak to Voters Outreach but found that its office has been rented out to someone else.

The landlord says Voters Outreach was evicted for non-payment of rent. Another source said the company has now moved on to Oregon where it is once again registering voters. It's unknown how many registrations may have been tossed out, but another ex-employee told Eyewitness News she had the same suspicions when she worked there.

It's going to take a while to sort all of this out, but the immediate concern for voters is to make sure you really are registered.

Call the Clark County Election Department at 455-VOTE orclick here to see if you are registered.

The company has been largely, if not entirely funded, by the Republican National Committee. Similar complaints have been received in Reno where the registrar has asked the FBI to investigate.


Oh yes - this is also the same company that the Republican's used in some states to gather enough supposed names on petitions to get NAder on the state ticket.

You beat me! Good work. :D

Several democrat-populated counties of Ohio have more registered voters than actual residents. It's a matter of who can out-fraud who now.

You beat me! Good work. :D


WooHoo! Let me guess - I win the "who read Koz first" sweepstakes.... lol

WooHoo! Let me guess - I win the "who read Koz first" sweepstakes.... lol
Guess so--I went the long way, through the link on Atrios.

Several democrat-populated counties of Ohio have more registered voters than actual residents. It's a matter of who can out-fraud who now.You got proof? Bring it. Otherwise you're talking out of your ass.

Several democrat-populated counties of Ohio have more registered voters than actual residents. It's a matter of who can out-fraud who now.

Please provide us your sources...

You got proof? Bring it. Otherwise you're talking out of your ass.


Come on!!!! This sort of Fraud has been going on forever by both parties. The dead got out of their graves and voted in the Nixon-Kennedy election. I'm not even gonna mention on which side cause it doesnt matter.

That being said, the people who did this should be found and put in jail. Hopefully federal prison and no time off for good behaviour. For this sort of thing to work, it has to be relatively widespread and low level people need to be involved. If the punishment is severe, it will discourage low level people to commit these acts. Higher level people are harder because they have more to gain if their party/canditate wins

Come on!!!! This sort of Fraud has been going on forever by both parties. The dead got out of their graves and voted in the Nixon-Kennedy election. I'm not even gonna mention on which side cause it doesnt matter.

That being said, the people who did this should be found and put in jail. Hopefully federal prison and no time off for good behaviour. For this sort of thing to work, it has to be relatively widespread and low level people need to be involved. If the punishment is severe, it will discourage low level people to commit these acts. Higher level people are harder because they have more to gain if their party/canditate winsHey, it happened in 2002 in Miami, so I know it still happens. There still ought to be some outrage, particularly from the RNC, considering that they're funding the company that did it, and I haven't heard a peep yet. Ought to be pretty easy to at least come out with a "we don't have all the facts yet, but if it's true, we're going to bust these people ourselves" statement, for crying out loud.

Please, South Dakota had many instances in 2002 of Indians being registered illegally and Tim Johnson won by like 200 votes. The RNC should only be pissed that they are not nearly as good as the democrats.

Hey, it happened in 2002 in Miami, so I know it still happens. There still ought to be some outrage, particularly from the RNC, considering that they're funding the company that did it, and I haven't heard a peep yet. Ought to be pretty easy to at least come out with a "we don't have all the facts yet, but if it's true, we're going to bust these people ourselves" statement, for crying out loud.

They are gonna keep on the dl as much as possible. I am unsure what the Dems will do. On the one hand it is dangerous for them to make too much of a stink about it, on the other it plays nicely into the voter supression theme of 2000.

Come on!!!! This sort of Fraud has been going on forever by both parties. The dead got out of their graves and voted in the Nixon-Kennedy election. I'm not even gonna mention on which side cause it doesnt matter.

That being said, the people who did this should be found and put in jail. Hopefully federal prison and no time off for good behaviour. For this sort of thing to work, it has to be relatively widespread and low level people need to be involved. If the punishment is severe, it will discourage low level people to commit these acts. Higher level people are harder because they have more to gain if their party/canditate wins

As Al Capone once said, "Voter early and vote often!".


Doesn't make it right, and calling yourself the great bastion of democracy to world becomes laughable with such things happening on such a regular basis. Florida was bad enough. Recent reports on just how easy it is to defraud the voting lists in the States makes every election suspect to the casual observer.

As Al Capone once said, "Voter early and vote often!"

"The people who cast the votes don't decide an election, the people who count the votes do." - Joseph Stalin

Makes me think of Florida.... :eek:

Hey, it happened in 2002 in Miami, so I know it still happens. There still ought to be some outrage, particularly from the RNC, considering that they're funding the company that did it, and I haven't heard a peep yet. Ought to be pretty easy to at least come out with a "we don't have all the facts yet, but if it's true, we're going to bust these people ourselves" statement, for crying out loud.

You mean RNC funds Diebold?

You mean RNC funds Diebold?

The owner of Diebold has said and I quote "I will do any thing to get Bush re-elected" end quote.

As Al Capone once said, "Voter early and vote often!".


Doesn't make it right, and calling yourself the great bastion of democracy to world becomes laughable with such things happening on such a regular basis. Florida was bad enough. Recent reports on just how easy it is to defraud the voting lists in the States makes every election suspect to the casual observer.

In politics there is no "right" there is only what you can get away with. I read an article a while back about there were 42,000 people registered in both NY and Florida. a few 1000 of them voted in both states(in 2000). Given the proportion of NY votes go Democratic(very high percentage) and how close the Florida election was, makes you think.

Its an imperfect system, but I like to believe its getting better not worse.

The owner of Diebold has said and I quote "I will do any thing to get Bush re-elected" end quote.

Where did he wrote that?

Anyway, its not related to what i said. Does the RNC fund Diebold? If i read correctly, thats what has been written, but its certainly not logic. It would rather be logic if its the opposite; `Diebold funds RNC'.

Where did he wrote that?

Anyway, its not related to what i said. Does the RNC fund Diebold? If i read correctly, thats what has been written, but its certainly not logic. It would rather be logic if its the opposite; `Diebold funds RNC'.
The actual quote can be found in part here. (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0828-08.htm) What he said was that he was "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."

And the article that started this thread has nothing to do with Diebold, but rather with a company that was registering voters in Nevada, and then was destroying Democratic party registrations before turning them in to the registrar.

Makes me think of Florida.... :eek:
makes me rember why I used to think you were insane :eek:

makes me rember why I used to think you were insane :eek:

Makes me remember my side bet with myself on how long it would take until you added something meaningful to a conversation. I see I have a bit longer to wait to see if I win or not.

makes me rember why I used to think you were insane :eek:

How very intelligent.. :rolleyes:

makes me rember why I used to think you were insane :eek:
Little piece of advice--don't fuck with a mod, even a nice one like Steph.

Several democrat-populated counties of Ohio have more registered voters than actual residents. It's a matter of who can out-fraud who now.
Not to mention the 46,000 Dims registered in New York AND Florida.

Or all the dead voters in Chicago.

Not to mention the 46,000 Dims registered in New York AND Florida.

Or all the dead voters in Chicago.
So what are you saying? Voter fraud is okay?

What's funny is that these all all good reasons to get rid of the electoral college. As the country stands now, you could target several counties for fraud!

But you'd have to believe that the overall percentage of votes tainted by fraud is very low, not all pervasive and widespread.

So what are you saying? Voter fraud is okay?
Not at all. But I just love the selective application of outrage.

What's funny is that these all all good reasons to get rid of the electoral college. As the country stands now, you could target several counties for fraud!

But you'd have to believe that the overall percentage of votes tainted by fraud is very low, not all pervasive and widespread.
You know, the funny thing is, most...repeat, MOST, not all...counties with widespread, pervasive voter fraud, are controlled by which party?

Hint: starts with a D.

Please, South Dakota had many instances in 2002 of Indians being registered illegally and Tim Johnson won by like 200 votes. The RNC should only be pissed that they are not nearly as good as the democrats.

Sounds interesting. I presume you mean Native Americans, so I must ask, is it really illegal for them to vote in SD? Do you have a link to this incident?

Not at all. But I just love the selective application of outrage.
So post an ongoing example of actual fraud and I'll get outraged. Something on this level, if you don't mind. Otherwise, take a flying fuck at a rolling donut.

Where did he wrote that?

Anyway, its not related to what i said. Does the RNC fund Diebold? If i read correctly, thats what has been written, but its certainly not logic. It would rather be logic if its the opposite; `Diebold funds RNC'.

No, it would be a logical plot either way. Diebold could buy the RNC and throw in some election rigging to make sure that the party they've bought wins, or the RNC could simply set up Diebold to rig elections. It works either way.

So post an ongoing example of actual fraud and I'll get outraged. Something on this level, if you don't mind. Otherwise, take a flying fuck at a rolling donut.
Lovely language...not that I expected any better. I guess that what happens when you on the Left get confronted with the fraud your minions have committed. Can you deny the fraud committed by the Daley family in Chicago for several decades now, with a straight face? What about the mess in Florida in 2000 and 2002? What's the common factor between 2000 and 2002 in Florida? All the counties affected by voting problems were run by...you guessed it, Democrats. And who is amassing lawyers in order to clog up the legal system with lawsuits as soon as the ballots are cast in 21 days? Yup, Democrats.

Partisan actions reach a new low...

From: http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2421595&nav=168XRvNe



Oh yes - this is also the same company that the Republican's used in some states to gather enough supposed names on petitions to get NAder on the state ticket.

I've been working as a poll worker (non-partisan, in the precincts) since 1998, and it is common for people to come in insisting that they were registered when in fact they weren't.

This isn't new for this election. In fact it is common for *all* political parties to "loose" the applications that aren't for their political party. That is part of the reason that the motor voter bill was passed years ago, making it possible for people to register while getting their drivers license or photo ID.

There are groups that I do recommend contacting if you suspect voter registeration issues (this isn't fraud, as only the post office or a government agency is obligated to submit your voter registeration):

The League of Women Voters.

You don't have to be female to ask for their help. The League is a non-partisan organization that is decidated towards seeing to it that the basic concepts of democracy are promoted, and that includes franchisement of all regardless of their political orientation. The League *might* vary from community to community, but I've had them help me in Texas (where voter disenfranchisement is common) and I enjoy watching their debates on community access television.

Lovely language...not that I expected any better. I guess that what happens when you on the Left get confronted with the fraud your minions have committed. Can you deny the fraud committed by the Daley family in Chicago for several decades now, with a straight face? What about the mess in Florida in 2000 and 2002? What's the common factor between 2000 and 2002 in Florida? All the counties affected by voting problems were run by...you guessed it, Democrats. And who is amassing lawyers in order to clog up the legal system with lawsuits as soon as the ballots are cast in 21 days? Yup, Democrats.
The mess in Florida in 2000 and 2002 was caused by the Republican party led by Jeb Bush and the last two Secretaries of State, Katherine Harris and Glenda Hood, thank you very much. Who tried to scrub registered voters twice, targeting African-Americans twice? Bush and his lackeys. So fucking spare me your holier-than-thou Florida shit, Panhandlia.

As to Chicago, hey, bust them all and send them to jail. I'm for fair elections.

The mess in Florida in 2000 and 2002 was caused by the Republican party led by Jeb Bush and the last two Secretaries of State, Katherine Harris and Glenda Hood, thank you very much.Right. If I follow you correctly, in 2000, Bush, Harris and Hood went to four Democrat-controlled counties and designed a ballot that they knew would confuse the elderly and the illiterate and then forced those same people to cast invalid votes. Then those nefarious Reps set the wheels in motion right on Election Day, to make sure even those who had voted correctly would challenge the results, and then they had the temerity to re-write the election rules on the fly. Even worse, they went back to the same counties in 2002 and did it all over again. Is that what you want everyone to believe? Cause you would do better selling oceanfront lots in Montana. Who tried to scrub registered voters twice, targeting African-Americans twice? Bush and his lackeys.Wow, back to the racial card? Sad...but typical of a Lib. I'll spare you the reply your obscenity-filled rants truly deserve...suffice it to say, I worry about those who you "teach."

As to Chicago, hey, bust them all and send them to jail. I'm for fair elections.No disagreement there. But Chicago would be just for starters. St Louis unilaterally extended voting hours in Democrat-controlled African-American precincts in 2000. Democrat-controlled counties in Florida demanded ultra-flexible vote-counting rules in 2000. Anytime you find widespread or rampant vote corruption someplace in America, odds are excellent that Dems run the show there.

Right. If I follow you correctly, in 2000, Bush, Harris and Hood went to four Democrat-controlled counties and designed a ballot that they knew would confuse the elderly and the illiterate and then forced those same people to cast invalid votes. Then those nefarious Reps set the wheels in motion right on Election Day, to make sure even those who had voted correctly would challenge the results, and then they had the temerity to re-write the election rules on the fly. Even worse, they went back to the same counties in 2002 and did it all over again. Is that what you want everyone to believe? Cause you would do better selling oceanfront lots in Montana. Wow, back to the racial card? Sad...but typical of a Lib. I'll spare you the reply your obscenity-filled rants truly deserve...suffice it to say, I worry about those who you "teach."Did I mention the fucking butterfly ballot? No. I'm talking about the fucking disenfranchisement of black voters across the state in 2000, and the attempted disenfranchisement of those same voters in 2004, stopped only because a news organization had the balls to sue and show that the rolls were flawed--deliberately designed to exclude hispanics from being knocked off, by the way. Face it, Panhandlia, the recent corruption in Florida voting starts and ends in Jeb Bush's administration.

Now, do you want to try again to find a Democratic party example of fraud that is 1) current and 2) anywhere near the same level of what we see in Nevada? Something you can back up, perhaps, and not, you know, coming out of your ass?

Anytime you find widespread or rampant vote corruption someplace in America, odds are excellent that Dems run the show there.

the sheer audacity of this statement, given the subject of this thread, is just astounding.

the sheer audacity of this statement, given the subject of this thread, is just astounding.
Yeah, well Panhandlia never lacks for audacity. Factual backup for his arguments? He lacks that all the time, but audacity, no.

Several democrat-populated counties of Ohio have more registered voters than actual residents. It's a matter of who can out-fraud who now.

As they use to say, "This is NO way to run a railroad!" Has it really come to this? As far as I'm concerned, anyone convicted of voter fraud should be stood against a wall and forced to listen to 1,000 hours of political speeches ... from BOTH parties! But that would probably be considered "cruel and inhumane punishment." Sigh.

A little update. There are early reports that the same thing is happening in Oregon and South Dakota, all by the same company, all directly targeting Democratic registrations, and all linked to the Republican National Committee. Here's a clearinghouse (http://www.dkosopedia.com/index.php/Voter_Registration_Fraud_Clearinghouse) of information on the nationwide situation. Yes, it's a liberal site, but they're linking to news sources all over the map. Check it out if you wish--I'll do more on this later.

I've been working as a poll worker (non-partisan, in the precincts) since 1998, and it is common for people to come in insisting that they were registered when in fact they weren't.

This isn't new for this election. In fact it is common for *all* political parties to "loose" the applications that aren't for their political party. That is part of the reason that the motor voter bill was passed years ago, making it possible for people to register while getting their drivers license or photo ID.

There are groups that I do recommend contacting if you suspect voter registeration issues (this isn't fraud, as only the post office or a government agency is obligated to submit your voter registeration):

The League of Women Voters.

You don't have to be female to ask for their help. The League is a non-partisan organization that is decidated towards seeing to it that the basic concepts of democracy are promoted, and that includes franchisement of all regardless of their political orientation. The League *might* vary from community to community, but I've had them help me in Texas (where voter disenfranchisement is common) and I enjoy watching their debates on community access television.


No offence, but there is a huge difference between people showing up on election day claiming to have registered - which of course happens, and a company found to be claiming to be registering people but not submitting the paperwork for one party prior to the election.

This is not sour-grapes after the fact, but rather an aparent fraud caught before the election. Hopefully those communities where this group was "working" will warn their constituents to allow them the time to re-register properly if needed.

No offence, but there is a huge difference between people showing up on election day claiming to have registered - which of course happens, and a company found to be claiming to be registering people but not submitting the paperwork for one party prior to the election.

This is not sour-grapes after the fact, but rather an aparent fraud caught before the election. Hopefully those communities where this group was "working" will warn their constituents to allow them the time to re-register properly if needed.

None taken, but I think you may be misinterpeting what I was suggesting. :)

People who show up claiming to have registered often *include* both those who did, but then handed their registeration forms over to a partisan group with the hope that they'd actually turn in the registration and those that simply may have only thought they filled out the form.

It is my opinion that some of the people we have show up swearing up and down that they just registered truly did fill out a registration card ... and then handed it to somebody else.

Voters need to be aware that when they turn those cards in, they need to turn them into trusted sources.

Did I mention the fucking butterfly ballot? No. I'm talking about the fucking disenfranchisement of black voters across the state in 2000, and the attempted disenfranchisement of those same voters in 2004, stopped only because a news organization had the balls to sue and show that the rolls were flawed--deliberately designed to exclude hispanics from being knocked off, by the way. Face it, Panhandlia, the recent corruption in Florida voting starts and ends in Jeb Bush's administration.

Did Jeb Bush order certain Florida counties to not use the scrub list at all, letting certain felons vote?

Did I mention the fucking butterfly ballot? No. I'm talking about the fucking disenfranchisement of black voters across the state in 2000, and the attempted disenfranchisement of those same voters in 2004, stopped only because a news organization had the balls to sue and show that the rolls were flawed--deliberately designed to exclude hispanics from being knocked off, by the way. Face it, Panhandlia, the recent corruption in Florida voting starts and ends in Jeb Bush's administration.

Now, do you want to try again to find a Democratic party example of fraud that is 1) current and 2) anywhere near the same level of what we see in Nevada? Something you can back up, perhaps, and not, you know, coming out of your ass?

Now now, no need to cuss to get your point across.

But yeah Republicans do seem to do smear actions lately more than Democrats.

Makes you wonder about that whole Christian thingy. Religious right wouldn't do smear tactics if you use logic...where has all the logic gone?

None taken, but I think you may be misinterpeting what I was suggesting. :)

People who show up claiming to have registered often *include* both those who did, but then handed their registeration forms over to a partisan group with the hope that they'd actually turn in the registration and those that simply may have only thought they filled out the form.

It is my opinion that some of the people we have show up swearing up and down that they just registered truly did fill out a registration card ... and then handed it to somebody else.

Voters need to be aware that when they turn those cards in, they need to turn them into trusted sources.


fair enough, but at least please tell me that it is some sort of crime for these groups to not turn in these forms.

Partisan actions reach a new low...

From: http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2421595&nav=168XRvNe

Oh yes - this is also the same company that the Republican's used in some states to gather enough supposed names on petitions to get NAder on the state ticket.
Has there been any follow up to this? I mean, this is clearly illegal behavior, so has there been anything else reported? As in charges being filed?

From the initial story, all it seems to be is the allegations of some employees. Something else to back up the initial claim would go a long way to help bolster the argument.

the sheer audacity of this statement, given the subject of this thread, is just astounding.
West Palm Beach/Broward/Dade counties, 2000 AND 2002 (and very likely in 2004)
Chicago, forever and a day
StLouis, 2000
Madison, Wisconsin, 2000 (ciggies for homeless to go vote)

I can keep this going all day long. Not that it will matter, since you're so locked up on your talking points from Err America and Terry McAwful.

Not that it will matter, since you're so locked up on your talking points from Err America and Terry McAwful.

hahahaha

perhaps you haven't noticed, but i'm an anarchist. and perhaps you should spend less time dealing in talking points, and more time dealing in facts.

fair enough, but at least please tell me that it is some sort of crime for these groups to not turn in these forms.

I honestly don't know, but I will ask my County Clerk tomorrow when I'm in my "refresher class" for the upcoming election.

If it is a crime, which I'm thinking it isn't, it would be a misdemenaor (sp?) in California.

Election laws vary from state to state, and the proceedures are determined on a county basis.

A good friend of mine already voted (absentee) and had to hand write in everything. This is for a small rural county in Pennsylvania.

I'll request my absentee ballot tomorrow night at the same class.

But sadly politicians and political parties *do* practice many dishonest things and there is little we can do. :(

No offence, but there is a huge difference between people showing up on election day claiming to have registered - which of course happens, and a company found to be claiming to be registering people but not submitting the paperwork for one party prior to the election.

This is not sour-grapes after the fact, but rather an aparent fraud caught before the election. Hopefully those communities where this group was "working" will warn their constituents to allow them the time to re-register properly if needed.

OK, I finally got the chance to ask my County Clerk (which in California are the public officials whom are responsible for County Elections) about this ... and the minute an organization or individual *accepts* an official registeration form and suggests that it/she/he will turn it in on the behalf of a citizen, failure to do so is in fact an attempt at disinfranchisement, and in California is a felony offense.

She went on to explain that this does in fact happen. One of her staff members cited an example in El Dorado County California, where a political party was taking registration forms for anybody, but sent them to the county office in two batches. The first batch was sent well in advance, the second was held onto for a very long time.

This practice was very frowned upon, but they choose not to go into much further detail.

As for crimes related to fraud, the penalty in California varies with respect to the crime. Simple fraud, such as casting additional votes or smaller actions, are misdemeanors. Attempting to deny a citizens right to register and/or vote, is a felony and very frowned upon.

FYI: the US Department of Homeland Security has made some new suggestions to US counties. In some California counties (where the money will allow this), precinct inspectors (basically the head poll worker per location) will be given a mobile phone. If there is a serious emergency, we will be given immediate instructions, but they do not anticipate anything.

We were also told that should there be a serious emergency the election will simply be redone and that there are provisions for this already in place.

In any event, I figured some of you would be happy to hear that the fraud being discussed here was at least described as a felony by my County Clerk, and I'm now convinced that if this happened here, that the County Sheriffs would be investigating this.

All that said, my advise to everybody planning to vote in any country, prior to any election, if you do not have a confirmation of your polling place and time, in a democracy it usually is not frowned upon to place a phone call to your local election office and double check that you are in fact registered. Now when I voted in Texas, I had to get the League of Women Voters to do this for me, since the Harris County Tax Collector ran (at the time) what I'd consider a very sloppy office. (In fact, I feel that he should have been charged with disinfranchisement ... and when I passed my complaint along to the League, they were more than happy to take up my case free of charge and with very positive results.) But in California I've had better luck ... with the exception of 2000. My county of residence at the time: Contra Costa, never sent me my absentee ballot. Or more correctly, my ballot was lost in the mail. :( I was pretty upset, but their records claimed it was sent, but pointed out that I could vote provisionally. The problem of course was that I was in Pennsylvania at the time of the election (I'm just very thankful that my sister knew who I was voting for and cast her vote for everything I wanted).

As for fraud issues or questions, your county offices might be busy right now, but at the same time, these people are paid by your tax dollars to answer these questions, and a good elections officer welcomes questions. :) I know that my Clerk was very happy to answer my questions.

In fact, I was also very happy to hear that my suggestion to have Spanish interpeters in some locations was agreed upon, and now my county will be doing that too! :) (California does in fact have laws when this is necessary, but my county decided they should do this anyways.)

Anytime you find widespread or rampant vote corruption someplace in America, odds are excellent that Dems run the show there.

That's because it doesn't make sense for republicans to try to screw with votes in republican counties, those counties vote republican anyway. The fraud goes on in democratic counties because that's where republicans know they have to target to fraudulantly affect the vote in their favor.

Mikitivity--that's awesome advice, and I'll add one more thing to it. Check on the availability of absentee voting or early voting. It's available in many states and you don't have to worry about questionable electronic voting machines.

Mikitivity--that's awesome advice, and I'll add one more thing to it. Check on the availability of absentee voting or early voting. It's available in many states and you don't have to worry about questionable electronic voting machines.

I'll build on this.

If you get an absentee ballot, in all the cases I know of, the must be received by your county election office by the end of the polls.

In California that means you have until 8 PM to turn in your absentee ballot to a polling place in your County. If you drop your ballot in the mail the day of the election, you've thrown away your vote. If you turn your ballot in to a different county, again you've thrown away your vote.

Anybody reading this, obviously has internet access. To find out how to contact your county government, a google search with your state, county, and elections should get you most of the way to finding out where and how to vote. :) If you are still having problems, the League of Women Voters is supposed to be non-partisan. I completely trust them and would turn to them before either major political party (even though most of the time the political parties will actually treat you with respect ... they want your vote and your money). ;)

Paul Krugman is on this story as well. His column (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/15/opinion/15krugman.html?oref=login&hp) in today's NY Times is certainly worth reading. He starts with the Sproul and Associates fraud case and builds on it from there.

He also notes that Greg Palast, who did the first and best work on the Florida felon list scandal in 2000, has a piece coming out in Harpers next week that reveals that few of those wrongly purged from the voting rolls in 2000 are back on the voter lists. State officials have imposed Kafkaesque hurdles for voters trying to get back on the rolls. Depending on the county, those attempting to get their votes back have been required to seek clemency for crimes committed by others, or to go through quasi-judicial proceedings to prove that they are not felons with similar names.Does anyone realize just how insane that idea is? You're a voter, and your name was removed from the voter rolls through no fault of your own, and yet you have to jump through hoops in order to get it put back on. You've never been convicted of any crime, and yet you have to prove your innocence or worse--seek clemency. I'll be waiting for that article.

A little update. There are early reports that the same thing is happening in Oregon and South Dakota, all by the same company, all directly targeting Democratic registrations, and all linked to the Republican National Committee. Here's a clearinghouse (http://www.dkosopedia.com/index.php/Voter_Registration_Fraud_Clearinghouse) of information on the nationwide situation. Yes, it's a liberal site, but they're linking to news sources all over the map. Check it out if you wish--I'll do more on this later.

I question your source! How can you trust any news or information you get from an organization that has this on their website.

Welcome to the dKosopedia, a collaborative project of the DailyKos community to build a political encyclopedia. The dKosopedia is written from a left/progressive/liberal/Democratic point of view while also attempting to fairly acknowledge the other side's take. It was started in April of 2004, and currently consists of 1940 articles. You are invited to contribute; see below for instructions.

I'll tell you how, Jabbaness. You go look at their primary source material, most of which comes from nonbiased sources, and you make your own damn mind up. That's why I put the caveat in there, noting that it was a progressive point of view. The folks who run the site and contribute to it--I'm one of them--are left-leaning. Their source material isn't. It's from places like the LA Times and the Washington Post, among others.

Unless, of course, you think the facts have a liberal bias.

Just going to throw this out there.

If you're all so worried about Voter Fraud and such. Why not just hire a group from Canada to do it? We do a damn fine job of our elections :p Hell. I think last election we had like one re-count. And it was done in 30 minutes =O... and it was a victory for some dude by like 32 Votes or something.

But I diverge, the point is -When you can't do it yourself, why not hire someone out of country?

The biggest counter point I can think of to this would be the fact that Bush has alienated most of the countries potential companies could come from, but at least you'd have half a chance of getting someone who didn't care.

Big deal. Either way, a Republicon or a Democrud will win the election. It's not like we'll ever see a good candidate get elected, like Peroutka or Badnarik, men who actually give a rip about the constitution and our sovereignty.

I'll tell you how, Jabbaness. You go look at their primary source material, most of which comes from nonbiased sources, and you make your own damn mind up. That's why I put the caveat in there, noting that it was a progressive point of view. The folks who run the site and contribute to it--I'm one of them--are left-leaning. Their source material isn't. It's from places like the LA Times and the Washington Post, among others.

Unless, of course, you think the facts have a liberal bias.

Or, here's another way:

Get 20% of the story from an ultra-leftist
Get 20% from a leftist
20% from a moderate
20% from a rightist
20% from an ultra-rightist

Put 'em in a blender, mix 'em up real well, and somewhere in there you should find the truth.

The Democrats have been largely responsible for voter fraud for years on State elections. Now that they have pushed so hard to get that mail-your-vote-in act, it'll just make it easier for them to steal the vote counts of non-voters.

I still don't understand why people trust the Democrats or Republicans. Its far past time America votes both of them out of office and start looking to 3rd Party Candidates. Do we need Minnesota Governor Jesse Ventura to run for presidency before anyone looks at a 3rd Part Candidate seriously?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/14/politics/main649380.shtml

1. It is illegal to refuse to register people just because they aren't with your political party.

2. As stated, it is illegal to destroy voter registration forms anywhere in the US.

3. The fact that the group refuses to take or return calls makes them look guilty as all hell. What are they hiding?

4. The Republican State Parties are upset about it, so they likely didn't know until they were notified by the attorney generals. But this remains to be seen, since the focus is on Sproul. Even the most partisan Republicans or Democrats wouldn't stoop this low.

5. This was not initially filed by a former employee but an Medford, Oregon, county librarian, Meghan O’Flaherty. Whether she was biased is yet to be determined.

6. In a fax the company stated: "Our firm has been contracted to help coordinate a national nonpartisan voter registration drive, America Votes!, in several states across the nation." The one-page fax also claims, "We will equally register all those who wish to register to vote."
But then America Votes sent a letter to Sproul: owever, Cecile Richards, the president of America Votes, said in a letter to Sproul that he "had never even heard of Sproul & Associates," and asked that "he refrain from using the name 'America Votes' in any of your activities from this point forward."

7. The bounty system is common in all states. In basically the only way to conduct massive voter registration drives. If people would voluntarily register to vote on their own, or volunteer to take a day or week out of their own time, we wouldn't need the bounty system. The bounty system has worked until now, and apparently these are the only 2 states where it has created a problem. Its especially common in California.

8. In Nevada, the fact that complaint was filed by former employee is alone makes it suspicious. There is no evidence that the former employee was disgruntled nor is there evidence that he wasn't. Unlike the librarian, he isn't exacty a neutral unbiased source.

9. The US Attorney General needs to investigate the complaint in Oregon and check to see if the one in Nevada has any merit.

10. Clearly, from current information, Sprout and Associates has deliberately engaged in an attempt to deny people their constitutional rights and by claiming association with a group they have no association with, they have engaged in fraud. Both criminal offenses.

11. The case in Nevada, is shaky at this time. But if other people come forward who are not affiliated with either party, then the case would stand on more solid ground.

Its far past time America votes both of them out of office and start looking to 3rd Party Candidates.

Agreed. We need either a Badnarik or a Peroutka presidency; I'd be happy with either of the Mikes.

Several democrat-populated counties of Ohio have more registered voters than actual residents. It's a matter of who can out-fraud who now.

What they aren't telling you is the number of new residents in the area in the past 4 years.


Paranoia runs deep. Fear and consumption.


Besides, in Repuglia, no one votes, it's assumed the government is ALWAYS right.

I'll tell you how, Jabbaness. You go look at their primary source material, most of which comes from nonbiased sources, and you make your own damn mind up. That's why I put the caveat in there, noting that it was a progressive point of view. The folks who run the site and contribute to it--I'm one of them--are left-leaning. Their source material isn't. It's from places like the LA Times and the Washington Post, among others.

Unless, of course, you think the facts have a liberal bias.

This site won't print retractions and will be totally one sided. They only show the articles that fit their liberal bias. You can be sure you'll never see anything positive about Bush or any conservative posted on that site. So your information is skewed..

Facts are facts, only showing one side of the story is bias.

I'm not from the U.S.A. but I guess your Elections are as important to me as they are to you. Probably more so as American Foreign Policy seems to be a bit more pro-active shall we say?

I think it's time we send over the Karma Police to your " Land of the Free! Home of the Brave!"

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/14/politics/main649380.shtml

1. It is illegal to refuse to register people just because they aren't with your political party.
[...]
6. In a fax the company stated: "Our firm has been contracted to help coordinate a national nonpartisan voter registration drive, America Votes!, in several states across the nation." The one-page fax also claims, "We will equally register all those who wish to register to vote."
But then America Votes sent a letter to Sproul: owever, Cecile Richards, the president of America Votes, said in a letter to Sproul that he "had never even heard of Sproul & Associates," and asked that "he refrain from using the name 'America Votes' in any of your activities from this point forward."

7. The bounty system is common in all states. In basically the only way to conduct massive voter registration drives. If people would voluntarily register to vote on their own, or volunteer to take a day or week out of their own time, we wouldn't need the bounty system. The bounty system has worked until now, and apparently these are the only 2 states where it has created a problem. Its especially common in California.


As a resident of the UK, I'm confused about the whole issue. From the items listed above (and other messages in this thread and elsewhere) I gather that when you register to vote, you are asked to state your political affiliation or otherwise associate yourself with a given party... To me this sounds non-sensicle. Never mind that there appears to be some way of encouraging voters to register, presumably because no-one would vote otherwise...

I am registed to vote here in the UK. It's all part of the Electoral Role and just about everyone registers (exceptions being the more shady characters and those attempting to avoid things like the Poll Tax) even if they never intend to vote. They do so without having to state their political allegience and it is all handled through local government offices, without the (obvious) need for private firms in any way.

The way I vote is (essentially) kept secret and if I do not wish to tell anyone how I voted (or misdirect them) then that is Ok, and practices involving rewarding voters for a particular cause are heavily legislated against (I cannot claim them to be 100% effective, but what goes on in the polling booth essentially stays in the polling booth).

I'm thus quite intruigued about whether I have a misconception of the nature of these vote registration schemes, or is there some good reason (on behalf of democracy) for such practices?

As a resident of the UK, I'm confused about the whole issue. From the items listed above (and other messages in this thread and elsewhere) I gather that when you register to vote, you are asked to state your political affiliation or otherwise associate yourself with a given party... To me this sounds non-sensicle. Never mind that there appears to be some way of encouraging voters to register, presumably because no-one would vote otherwise...

Good question ...

In the United States political parties are essentially exclusive organizations and / or clubs. They are afforded special rights that citizens and corporations do not have in many (if not all) state election codes.

Keep in mind that the United States is a something of a cross between a Federal Govt and Confederacy of Governments. Meaning that states actually do have some rights apart from the US that many non-Americans see. One of those most important rights is the "Election Code".

Anyway, when you register you *may* choose to publically affliate yourself with a political party. Doing so means that the political party gets your address, name, and if you choose to include it, your phone number. The reason a person would do this, is so that his / her party can contact him / her with recommendations and to ask for money.

You don't have to declare a party. Different states have different names for non-partisans, but a large number of people who actually show up to vote actually are non-partisan. I'm not sure if non-partisans have a higher turnout than partisan voters, but I would guess it varies based on election and region.

As a resident of the UK, I'm confused about the whole issue. From the items listed above (and other messages in this thread and elsewhere) I gather that when you register to vote, you are asked to state your political affiliation or otherwise associate yourself with a given party...

This may or may not be true in some cases, but I personally was not asked to do so when I registered.

Good question ...
Gosh, I thought I was just being stupid or something... Nice to know that I'm at least being stupid on my own terms... :)

Anyway, when you register you *may* choose to publically affliate yourself with a political party. Doing so means that the political party gets your address, name, and if you choose to include it, your phone number. The reason a person would do this, is so that his / her party can contact him / her with recommendations and to ask for money.Doesn't sound like a particularly attractive proposition. There can't be (despite some people's opinion) too many 'hard of thinking' people who can't make up their own mind, based or otherwise on their personal political-block allegience, and if I felt inclined to contribute to a party then I'd do so off my own back... However, if it's a system that has been developed over on your side of the Pond then I'm sure you're used to it... :)

(I must admit that, upon turning voting age here in the UK, I was very tempted to simultaneously apply for membership to every political party that I did not actually frown upon (i.e. not the BNP, but including the Monster Raving Loonies, et al) just for a lark and to see if anyone would spot me... I mean, I was a teenager, but then I was also a not particularly extravegent one, so never got around to forking out for the token memberships needed to do so... :))

You don't have to declare a party. Different states have different names for non-partisans, but a large number of people who actually show up to vote actually are non-partisan. I'm not sure if non-partisans have a higher turnout than partisan voters, but I would guess it varies based on election and region.Non-partisans must be significantly few to make a "dump the obvious opponents" scam work much to your advantage... Or perhaps partisans are more susceptible to "registration drives" such as that so?

Anyway, intruiging. Thanks for answering that query.

As a resident of the UK, I'm confused about the whole issue. From the items listed above (and other messages in this thread and elsewhere) I gather that when you register to vote, you are asked to state your political affiliation or otherwise associate yourself with a given party... To me this sounds non-sensicle. Never mind that there appears to be some way of encouraging voters to register, presumably because no-one would vote otherwise...

I am registed to vote here in the UK. It's all part of the Electoral Role and just about everyone registers (exceptions being the more shady characters and those attempting to avoid things like the Poll Tax) even if they never intend to vote. They do so without having to state their political allegience and it is all handled through local government offices, without the (obvious) need for private firms in any way.

The way I vote is (essentially) kept secret and if I do not wish to tell anyone how I voted (or misdirect them) then that is Ok, and practices involving rewarding voters for a particular cause are heavily legislated against (I cannot claim them to be 100% effective, but what goes on in the polling booth essentially stays in the polling booth).

I'm thus quite intruigued about whether I have a misconception of the nature of these vote registration schemes, or is there some good reason (on behalf of democracy) for such practices?

1. They aren't supposed to ask your party affiliation, and in some states, like California, it is actually illegal. But they do have places on the form itself for which ever party you want to identify with. They have to accept it and turn it in regardless of which party you pick. You can also pick independent or decline to state.

Good question ...

In the United States political parties are essentially exclusive organizations and / or clubs. They are afforded special rights that citizens and corporations do not have in many (if not all) state election codes.

Keep in mind that the United States is a something of a cross between a Federal Govt and Confederacy of Governments. Meaning that states actually do have some rights apart from the US that many non-Americans see. One of those most important rights is the "Election Code".

Anyway, when you register you *may* choose to publically affliate yourself with a political party. Doing so means that the political party gets your address, name, and if you choose to include it, your phone number. The reason a person would do this, is so that his / her party can contact him / her with recommendations and to ask for money.

You don't have to declare a party. Different states have different names for non-partisans, but a large number of people who actually show up to vote actually are non-partisan. I'm not sure if non-partisans have a higher turnout than partisan voters, but I would guess it varies based on election and region.

Actually partisan voters vote in higher rates than nonpartisan voters who tend not to vote most of the time.

Most of the people who register to vote in America, actually don't vote. They only register so people will stop soliciting them at the local supermarket. And some will say they are registered when they know they aren't. To avoid being solicited to register.

1. They aren't supposed to ask your party affiliation, and in some states, like California, it is actually illegal. But they do have places on the form itself for which ever party you want to identify with. They have to accept it and turn it in regardless of which party you pick. You can also pick independent or decline to state.

I think you are mistaking *registration* from actual *voting* law.

In California there is a "roster" of voters that is posted (by law) outside every polling place. Party affliation is public information. In fact, political parties have the legal right to contact each County Clerk and ask for a list of everybody registered in their party.

As a poll worker, who has worked several primary elections, we are REQUIRED by law to ask people their party affliation when they vote.

California has the following parties:

American Independent
Democratic
Green
Libertarian
Natural Law
Peace and Freedom
Republican

I'm not sure of the status of the Reform Party in California, as I do not remember even getting a single "Reform" ballot in our March primary.

See, in California primary elections (current rules ... these have changed twice in less than the 8 years I've been working), each party has its own ballot. The ballots have different colors.

http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/elections_f.htm

The Reform Party *used* to exist in California, but no longer does. I'm not sure what happened or why. *shrug*

Do bear in mind that some parties change names in different states. For example, the American Independent Party has nothing to do with Independents or Non-Partisans. In fact, it is a California only Conservative Party.

In California the AIP is running Michael Peroutka for President. In many other US states, Peroutka is on the Constitution Party's ballot.

http://www.peroutka2004.com/

For a list of various names of the Constitution Party:
http://www.constitutionparty.com/view_states.php

Interestingly enough, the California AIP does not have a link back to the National CP ... but they are the same basic organization.

Anyway, political parties are clubs. If you don't want people "knowing" what party you belong do, you simply don't register with one. All political parties will accept money ... er I take that back, the Green Party does not always accept cash. The California Green Party has been split on accepting money (even with no strings attached) from conservative interests. I'm not sure on the CA Greens official policy, but I know that Green party members are extremely mistrustful of Republicans and Democrats alike!

I think you are mistaking *registration* from actual *voting* law.

In California there is a "roster" of voters that is posted (by law) outside every polling place. Party affliation is public information. In fact, political parties have the legal right to contact each County Clerk and ask for a list of everybody registered in their party.

As a poll worker, who has worked several primary elections, we are REQUIRED by law to ask people their party affliation when they vote.

California has the following parties:

American Independent
Democratic
Green
Libertarian
Natural Law
Peace and Freedom
Republican

I'm not sure of the status of the Reform Party in California, as I do not remember even getting a single "Reform" ballot in our March primary.

See, in California primary elections (current rules ... these have changed twice in less than the 8 years I've been working), each party has its own ballot. The ballots have different colors.

http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/elections_f.htm

The Reform Party *used* to exist in California, but no longer does. I'm not sure what happened or why. *shrug*

Do bear in mind that some parties change names in different states. For example, the American Independent Party has nothing to do with Independents or Non-Partisans. In fact, it is a California only Conservative Party.

In California the AIP is running Michael Peroutka for President. In many other US states, Peroutka is on the Constitution Party's ballot.

http://www.peroutka2004.com/

For a list of various names of the Constitution Party:
http://www.constitutionparty.com/view_states.php

Interestingly enough, the California AIP does not have a link back to the National CP ... but they are the same basic organization.

Anyway, political parties are clubs. If you don't want people "knowing" what party you belong do, you simply don't register with one. All political parties will accept money ... er I take that back, the Green Party does not always accept cash. The California Green Party has been split on accepting money (even with no strings attached) from conservative interests. I'm not sure on the CA Greens official policy, but I know that Green party members are extremely mistrustful of Republicans and Democrats alike!

THose voter lists are not posted outside the polling place due to concerns about invasion of privacy.
The parties use those lists for fundraising purposes. But to get them, they have to go through the country registrar's office. Again due to concerns about privacy.
The reason for asking the party affiliation when they are voting is so you can give them the right ballot. But their affiliation should already be noted on the registration rolls that you use to verify if they are registered or not.

The Reform Party ceased to exist is not surprising since they had a lot of inside intrigue and backbiting between Ross Perot and some his top leadership particularly that Richard Lamb fellow. The party began falling apart at its 1994 convention.

The California Green Party is an extremist fringe group which is why it doesn't do too well at the polls.
Same with AIP, just in the opposite direction. Course, the Natural Law Party is even more extreme than these two. (Course my definition of extreme fringe group, is a party like the NP that says you have a natural right to beat people up based on their nationality or ethnicity and that people weren't meant to be educated.)
The Republicans and Democrats will send you mail everyyear asking for members dues. I know this cause I get 12 letters a year from the California Republican Party asking for a $12.00 membership fee which I of course, never pay.

Gosh, I thought I was just being stupid or something... Nice to know that I'm at least being stupid on my own terms... :)

Doesn't sound like a particularly attractive proposition. There can't be (despite some people's opinion) too many 'hard of thinking' people who can't make up their own mind, based or otherwise on their personal political-block allegience, and if I felt inclined to contribute to a party then I'd do so off my own back... However, if it's a system that has been developed over on your side of the Pond then I'm sure you're used to it... :)


Not stupid at all.

Most Americans don't realize that the voting machines and ballots in the county next door may very well be completely different! In fact, ballots change on a block by block basis sometimes. :) All within the same US city.

The idea of belonging to a political party isn't that bad.

My parents and kid brother are registered Republicans (all CA), one of my grandmothers is also a registered Republican (though in PA). My sister, is actually a San Francisco independent. She completely swings in her votes, and she'll often talk to all of her family and friends before making any decision (she takes voting very seriously).

I'm a California Central Valley independent and move around how I vote, but I have sat in my County Green Party meetings a few times.

So in Pennsylvania, there is an option when you vote to just vote a "Straight Party ticket". That means you can walk in and hit a button that says you send your proxy to the county party, and the party the decides who you vote for each decision.

My grandmother does this with the Republican party in PA. My best friend in Canada (an American also from PA), does this with the Democratic party (but she apologizes to me each time because she knows how much this irks me). In both cases they've told me they do this because there are few choices and they happen to agree with the party completely *based* on what was presented to them. I believe them both, and suspect that most people fall into the same category.

But other states have nothing like that. Political Parties in California might be organized to have "bloc captians" which will go to a precinct and then call everybody who hasn't yet voted. They do this using the roster we hang outside. Every few hours the poll workers are required to mark off everybody who has already voted that day. The names still listed on that list, include phone numbers (optional), voting addresses (which is not the same thing as your residence if you don't want it to be), and political affliation. Party bloc captains will go through and call their neighbors and say, "Hey, Michael, you've not voted. Do you need a ride to the polling place?"

In a local school board election I watched somebody (I suspect he was a Democratic bloc captian, but he actually could have been non-partisan) aggressively use the list. He'd come by every few hours and then go home and phone everybody. He isn't allowed to phone within 100 ft of the polling place, but the honest truth is the man was very polite, harassed NOBODY, and for a local school board election, I was shocked that his precicnt had probably a 60% or greater voter turnout!!! I'd have to double check what the final total was, but that man really did "Rock the Vote", by bringing out local voters.

Anyway, at the local level political parties are actually useful and good. It is when they get past the county level that I tend to see that their activies threaten democracy, such as in the case of the voter registration fraud. This isn't to say that national and state level parties are bad. They have as much right to organize as the Goontopians (a UN voting bloc in this game) do. :) But what is troublesome is when the political parties use the law to change districts and effectively build monopolies.

Them asking for money is no different than traveling around in any major first world city ... pan handling is pan handling, even if it is coming over the telephone. ;) Since I'm not registered, I only get political mailings in close elections, but I do admit I enjoy reading the stuff that my parents and brother get.


(I must admit that, upon turning voting age here in the UK, I was very tempted to simultaneously apply for membership to every political party that I did not actually frown upon (i.e. not the BNP, but including the Monster Raving Loonies, et al) just for a lark and to see if anyone would spot me... I mean, I was a teenager, but then I was also a not particularly extravegent one, so never got around to forking out for the token memberships needed to do so... :))

Non-partisans must be significantly few to make a "dump the obvious opponents" scam work much to your advantage... Or perhaps partisans are more susceptible to "registration drives" such as that so?

Anyway, intruiging. Thanks for answering that query.

Can you legally join more than one party? Here you can't.

THose voter lists are not posted outside the polling place due to concerns about invasion of privacy.


I'm sorry, I think we are talking about two different things.

There is a book called the "Roster of Voters". This is where you sign your name. It includes:

Name
Political Party
Voting Address
Phone Number

There should be three other lists called "Street Index", which include:

Voting Address
Name
Political Party
Phone Number

Notice I changed the order. The "Roster" is organized by name. The "Index" is organized by address. Political Party is listed by both. The "Index" is freely posted on the day of the election and may be viewed by ANYBODY.

It is part of the California Elections Code that the street index must be publically displayed, and depending upon the polling place, that legally may include posting the list OUTSIDE.

Joining a political party is VOLUNTARY. It is not an invasion of privacy by any means to know how somebody choose to PUBLICALLY affliate him or herself. If you don't want people knowing you support, say the Green Party, you may do what I do. Attend their meetings, but declare yourself "Declined to State".

I've been working for Contra Costa and then Yolo County since 1998, and I think I have a very GOOD understanding of the California political process. I'll respect that you do have a good understanding of elections as well, but I also think you aren't completely clear on just how public political affliation really is!

With respect to voter confidentiality, there are in fact provisions ... but they must be requested:


2166. Confidential registration upon order of superior court.
(a) Any person filing with the county elections official a new affidavit of registration or reregistration may have the information relating to his or her residence address, telephone number, and e-mail address appearing on the affidavit, or any list or roster or index prepared therefrom, declared confidential upon order of a superior court issued upon a showing of good cause that a life threatening circumstance exists to the voter or a member of the voter's household, and naming the county elections official as a party.


http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/voter_privacy_final_report/PTF%20Appendix%20B.doc

Notice in the above that both a roster and index are mentioned. The CA code talks of email addresses, and though I've seen these listed on Green Party only rosters, I honestly can't remember where if at all these appear on the "Roster" or "Index" for the precinct.

From that same page, please review "Article 5":


2189. Indexes provided to precinct board.
Before the day of any election held throughout the county, the county elections official shall deliver to the precinct board in each precinct three copies of the index to the affidavits of registration for that precinct, with canceled names lined out and with necessary supplements to bring the index up to date. The index and supplements shall constitute the register to be used at the election.


This is the street index I've been talking about. There are additional regulations about the street index in this section of the code.


The parties use those lists for fundraising purposes. But to get them, they have to go through the country registrar's office. Again due to concerns about privacy.
The reason for asking the party affiliation when they are voting is so you can give them the right ballot. But their affiliation should already be noted on the registration rolls that you use to verify if they are registered or not.


The reason we ask during primaries is because there are often registeration mistakes. Yeah, as a poll worker, I know who belongs to what before they walk into the polling place. But I've been shocked by the number of people who were registered for one party but thought they belonged to another one. In those cases, we hand them a new registration card. Their vote counts and they continue along and mail their new registration after the election (hopefully).


The Reform Party ceased to exist is not surprising since they had a lot of inside intrigue and backbiting between Ross Perot and some his top leadership particularly that Richard Lamb fellow. The party began falling apart at its 1994 convention.

The California Green Party is an extremist fringe group which is why it doesn't do too well at the polls.


First, the California code requires that parties have a base number of signatures. The party does exist. Kevin Shelley's office makes mention of it, but it just didn't "qualify".

The Green Party of California had a Mayor (Matt Gonzales) who was in a runoff election in Dec. 2003 with Democratic Mayoral Canidate Gavin Newsome (sp?). California Greens do actually very well in local elections. My own city has a CA Green City Councilmember, and has had other CA Greens on the City Council as well.

I wouldn't call the Greens extremists, but they certainly sit further to the left than do Democrats. That said, I've met Democrats whom are much more left-wing than some Greens. But that is probably because in the US there really are effectively two parties.


The Republicans and Democrats will send you mail everyyear asking for members dues. I know this cause I get 12 letters a year from the California Republican Party asking for a $12.00 membership fee which I of course, never pay.

But that is no different than a university sending you a half dozen letters every year asking for $100! :)

All political parties will try to suck money out of people. It stinks, but would you say that those letters really annoy you, or are they just dismissed?

I'm sorry, I think we are talking about two different things.

There is a book called the "Roster of Voters". This is where you sign your name. It includes:

Name
Political Party
Voting Address
Phone Number

There should be three other lists called "Street Index", which include:

Voting Address
Name
Political Party
Phone Number

Notice I changed the order. The "Roster" is organized by name. The "Index" is organized by address. Political Party is listed by both. The "Index" is freely posted on the day of the election and may be viewed by ANYBODY.

It is part of the California Elections Code that the street index must be publically displayed, and depending upon the polling place, that legally may include posting the list OUTSIDE.

Joining a political party is VOLUNTARY. It is not an invasion of privacy by any means to know how somebody choose to PUBLICALLY affliate him or herself. If you don't want people knowing you support, say the Green Party, you may do what I do. Attend their meetings, but declare yourself "Declined to State".

I've been working for Contra Costa and then Yolo County since 1998, and I think I have a very GOOD understanding of the California political process. I'll respect that you do have a good understanding of elections as well, but I also think you aren't completely clear on just how public political affliation really is!

With respect to voter confidentiality, there are in fact provisions ... but they must be requested:



http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/voter_privacy_final_report/PTF%20Appendix%20B.doc

Notice in the above that both a roster and index are mentioned. The CA code talks of email addresses, and though I've seen these listed on Green Party only rosters, I honestly can't remember where if at all these appear on the "Roster" or "Index" for the precinct.

From that same page, please review "Article 5":



This is the street index I've been talking about. There are additional regulations about the street index in this section of the code.



The reason we ask during primaries is because there are often registeration mistakes. Yeah, as a poll worker, I know who belongs to what before they walk into the polling place. But I've been shocked by the number of people who were registered for one party but thought they belonged to another one. In those cases, we hand them a new registration card. Their vote counts and they continue along and mail their new registration after the election (hopefully).



First, the California code requires that parties have a base number of signatures. The party does exist. Kevin Shelley's office makes mention of it, but it just didn't "qualify".

The Green Party of California had a Mayor (Matt Gonzales) who was in a runoff election in Dec. 2003 with Democratic Mayoral Canidate Gavin Newsome (sp?). California Greens do actually very well in local elections. My own city has a CA Green City Councilmember, and has had other CA Greens on the City Council as well.

I wouldn't call the Greens extremists, but they certainly sit further to the left than do Democrats. That said, I've met Democrats whom are much more left-wing than some Greens. But that is probably because in the US there really are effectively two parties.



But that is no different than a university sending you a half dozen letters every year asking for $100! :)

All political parties will try to suck money out of people. It stinks, but would you say that those letters really annoy you, or are they just dismissed?

Looks like there's been a few small changes since I was in California 3 years ago.
As for the privacy issue, I was talking about their phone numbers and addresses being listed.(Which you addressed I note.) Since California law is the strictest in the nation on that issue, almost making it possible for people to get away major felonies by claiming right to privacy. Hopefully, the USA Patriot Act has motivated the state to reform those laws which were too extreme in many cases.
The problem with posting the phone number or address outside the polling place, is that if a woman were being stalked, for example, then the stalker could check the index to find her address. Hence, why you ought to be careful where you post the index, cause if they find out he got her address off the index, you could get into some serious trouble.
Looks like your up north. I was down south.
As far as I know, if a person registers at the polling place or changes parties, their votes are conditional meaning they are counted after all the other votes are counted first.
In southern california I don't know of any greens winning council seats, but in California, all local elections for school board and city council are nonpartisan by law. This being in accordance with the state constitution.

Having been the Republican nominee for Congress in 2000, I had a free membership on the Republican central committees for the assembly district, the country and the state. But I just dismiss them generally since they won't do me any good as I can't attend any of the parties conventions or meetings, as I am currently stationed in another state.
If you run for at least a statewide office, you automatically become a member of one of your parties central committees. That's how it works for the Republicans and democrats.

(I must admit that, upon turning voting age here in the UK, I was very tempted to simultaneously apply for membership to every political party that I did not actually frown upon (i.e. not the BNP, but including the Monster Raving Loonies, et al) just for a lark and to see if anyone would spot me... I mean, I was a teenager, but then I was also a not particularly extravegent one, so never got around to forking out for the token memberships needed to do so... :))Can you legally join more than one party? Here you can't.
Do you know, I've no idea? Never even started the process, so never saw any documentation that said "You must not be a member of any other politically-affiliated group". Given we don't appear to have the same structure (officially joining no more than a single party as part of voter registration) I don't see why not, though, apart from any requirements of good-faith made by the parties in question... I doubt it would be legal (and without your permission) or even advantageous for a UK political party to share your membership details with other parties to try to root out the 'multi-faith' individuals...

Looks like there's been a few small changes since I was in California 3 years ago.


There certainly have been! :)

The CA Elections Code is really a living document, amended by the parties as frequently as "districts" are redrawn. I just feel sorry for the Counties.

Heck, I even called minutes ago to have one of their polling places put on the correct location on the map (they slipped up and put the "star-dot-thingie" in the wrong place). No worries.


As for the privacy issue, I was talking about their phone numbers and addresses being listed.(Which you addressed I note.) Since California law is the strictest in the nation on that issue, almost making it possible for people to get away major felonies by claiming right to privacy. Hopefully, the USA Patriot Act has motivated the state to reform those laws which were too extreme in many cases.


Several things here.

Having to *pay* to vote is strickly verboten! Meaning if you ever have a government employee tell you that they must see a drivers license and imply that nothing else works, they are wrong.

It is possible to come in and vote, show no idea, but to have originally registered and simply sworn (your registration is an oath on your part) that you are in fact a citizen, and then have a witness see you sign the form.

This concept of "no paid ID required" goes back to the "poll tax" days, and I think you'll find in practice that this right is disupted between counties and states. I wouldn't go as far as to divide this into a conservative / liberal issue, as it is more a procedural thing.

The Patriot Act or some other new federal law does require that first time voters show some form of ID or proof. If they have it, no problem. If they don't, they can still vote provisionally. That means they are issues a special ballot and must sign the outside of the ballot's secrecy envelope. The county must then compare the signature with the signature on file. If they match, the vote counts. If they don't, I'm guessing the ballot is marked SPOILED and archived with the rest of the election material.

What most Americans don't know is old ballots are stored. I don't know for how long, but judges and the various levels of "secretary of state" can and have called for audits of election results. We saw the recounts in Florida happening almost immediately after the election.

Every county in the US should be preparing for something on the scale of 2000 occurring again. Will it? Perhaps. But the laws are changing in response to every time something like a Florida happens.


The problem with posting the phone number or address outside the polling place, is that if a woman were being stalked, for example, then the stalker could check the index to find her address. Hence, why you ought to be careful where you post the index, cause if they find out he got her address off the index, you could get into some serious trouble.
Looks like your up north. I was down south.


Yup! I am.

I could dig around the code, but the law states that the street index *must* be posted at the entrance to the polling place. Both Contra Costa and Yolo interpet this to mean on or near the doorway into the polling place.

The reason the state Elections Code requires three copies of the street index is as follows:

1 copy is static and posted for anybody to see.

1 copy stays inside and is used to "check" the roster ... checks and balances at work people. This copy is marked and tallied just like the "roster".

1 copy is marked once an hour (that is the law, in practice it is more like 5 times per day) and is to be used by political parties.

It is simply a matter of public record. If an individual doesn't want to be on the index, they *must* contact the county (as I showed above) and request to be added to the confidential voters list.

People need to tell the government when they want to do this. And as I said, the point behind the posting of the lists outside the polling place is so a party bloc captian can advocate / canvas his / her bloc / precinct. Without a list of who voted (which can also be requested by anybody after an election ... this is how people know how many elections politicians don't vote in), the parties would honestly have no easy way of really coordinating their efforts. They wrote the rules, and since there are very few non-partisan state legistators, the rules are in fact partisan based.


As far as I know, if a person registers at the polling place or changes parties, their votes are conditional meaning they are counted after all the other votes are counted first.


*nod*

That is the basic idea. We call those "provisional" ballots. In the two counties I've worked, they are the same ballots, just placed in a pink envelope. As a poll worker it is my job to explain why the provisional ballot was issued. And yes, I've issued a provisional ballot for "voter from Santa Clara, claims to want to vote in Yolo". I can tell you where that ballot went when the county got it ... straight into the spoiled pile.

Since people can vote for either party, there is no reason to change a party during the election. But people who have said, "I'm not in the American Indepenent Party, I'm actually Non-Partisan. Can you change that for me?", I've asked to fill out a new registration form. I then hand these new forms to the County Clerk, but the people are voting from a legal address. The clerks review these new changes in political parties *after* dealing with the election results.


In southern california I don't know of any greens winning council seats, but in California, all local elections for school board and city council are nonpartisan by law. This being in accordance with the state constitution.


City Mayors, such as in San Francisco, still advertise and affliate themselves with parties. Newsome and Gonzales were both on the SF County Board of Supervisors ... and both wield strong power in SF politics. It is no surprise that the race between them was so close that SF had to make use of its runoff election laws.



Having been the Republican nominee for Congress in 2000, I had a free membership on the Republican central committees for the assembly district, the country and the state. But I just dismiss them generally since they won't do me any good as I can't attend any of the parties conventions or meetings, as I am currently stationed in another state.

If you run for at least a statewide office, you automatically become a member of one of your parties central committees. That's how it works for the Republicans and democrats.

Now that is very interesting!

I do remember in the Primary that the Yolo Greens actually voted on their County Chair ... though being Greens they may have used another word. The head of the California Greens is not a "Chair", but rather a "Liason".

I will say that Green Party meetings are actually worth attending. They highly encourage discussions and debates, and welcome just about any interest, even if you aren't registered with the party.

I've yet to attend a Republican or Democratic county meeting.

Do you know, I've no idea? Never even started the process, so never saw any documentation that said "You must not be a member of any other politically-affiliated group". Given we don't appear to have the same structure (officially joining no more than a single party as part of voter registration) I don't see why not, though, apart from any requirements of good-faith made by the parties in question... I doubt it would be legal (and without your permission) or even advantageous for a UK political party to share your membership details with other parties to try to root out the 'multi-faith' individuals...

I should say that there is nothing against the law about applying over and over again to different political parties or giving your money to different political parties, but it is the law that you should appear on the roster only once in California, and that also means you must have one party (when it comes time for a primary).

Voters should vote in blood, with a blood fingerprint. Then if there's any doubt that it was a legally registered voter, DNA testing. ;)

Voters should vote in blood, with a blood fingerprint. Then if there's any doubt that it was a legally registered voter, DNA testing. ;)
Now what is wrong with dipping your thumb in uv-reflective invisible ink, then being checked with a blacklight?

I was at work all day today and just got online, so I haven't seen yet--has there been any official disavowal of Sproul, even a "we're cutting him off until the investigation is over" one by anyone in the Republican party? Has there even been a "if it's true, and we're not saying it is, then we condemn it" kind of response? And if not, why the hell not?

Think about this for a second--if these charges were being made by Republicans against a Democatic National Committee funded group, how loudly would Limbaugh be screaming about it, or Gillespie, or any of teh top Republican people, for that matter? Hell, it hasn't even made the San Francisco paper as a story--what kind of liberal media are we talking about here?

I was at work all day today and just got online, so I haven't seen yet--has there been any official disavowal of Sproul, even a "we're cutting him off until the investigation is over" one by anyone in the Republican party? Has there even been a "if it's true, and we're not saying it is, then we condemn it" kind of response? And if not, why the hell not?

Think about this for a second--if these charges were being made by Republicans against a Democatic National Committee funded group, how loudly would Limbaugh be screaming about it, or Gillespie, or any of teh top Republican people, for that matter? Hell, it hasn't even made the San Francisco paper as a story--what kind of liberal media are we talking about here?


I just heard on television that this election is going to be the first NATIONAL election that has provisional balloting. If this is true, then there is no reason for either party to surpress voter registrations. Can someone who knows more about provisional balloting respond?

I just heard on television that this election is going to be the first NATIONAL election that has provisional balloting. If this is true, then there is no reason for either party to surpress voter registrations. Can someone who knows more about provisional balloting respond?Mikitivity? You want to take this one?

I was at work all day today and just got online, so I haven't seen yet--has there been any official disavowal of Sproul, even a "we're cutting him off until the investigation is over" one by anyone in the Republican party? Has there even been a "if it's true, and we're not saying it is, then we condemn it" kind of response? And if not, why the hell not?

Think about this for a second--if these charges were being made by Republicans against a Democatic National Committee funded group, how loudly would Limbaugh be screaming about it, or Gillespie, or any of teh top Republican people, for that matter? Hell, it hasn't even made the San Francisco paper as a story--what kind of liberal media are we talking about here?
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. The media (and more importantly, the judge in Nevada seeing this case,) obviously recognized that there's no story in this case. Deal with it.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. The media (and more importantly, the judge in Nevada seeing this case,) obviously recognized that there's no story in this case. Deal with it.Well, first of all, the only law enforcement invvovement I've read about thus far is in Oregon, not in Nevada, but if you have another source, by all means share.

Well, first of all, the only law enforcement invvovement I've read about thus far is in Oregon, not in Nevada, but if you have another source, by all means share.


I also thought this is about Nevada

I also thought this is about Nevada
The original complaint came in Nevada, but there were similar complaints in Oregon, and a DS there has started an investigation. I found what I think Panhandlia is talking about in Nevada, which is simply that a Republican judge held that registration could not be reopened for those people who may have had their registration forms destroyed. The judge did note that the individuals were able to file their own lawsuits if they so desired, and gave no hint as to how they would be ruled upon. There was no finding of fact as to the guilt or innocence of Sproul and Associates on the matter, so the case is still very open.

Mikitivity? You want to take this one?

Actually I *think* this is true.

Here is why. California has had a provisional ballot system since I became a resident (1995). However, last night in election class we were told that the Federal Government passed a new law that requires that all provisional ballot voters be given a piece of paper with a phone number to the County office in charge of processing the ballots, so they can check to see if their ballot was counted or spoiled.

Being an engineer, my first question was, "How many days should we tell them to wait before calling you?" The clerk grinned and said, "The slip of paper tells them to wait a few weeks."

I've not seen the paper yet, but the fact that a Federal Law (which sounds like a good one in this case) instituted this change, I think many states logically will also have provisional ballots (perhaps for the first time ... when I was a Texan, I always voted absentee ... I was a Harris County resident, but lived in Brazos County).


My advice for California (might be different in other states):

Not all states have same day registration. The Federal law about provisional ballots is probably modeled after the California system (a guess here, but California certainly has a very progressive election code). That means you can't just walk into a precinct and say, "I'd like to register and vote today!" You'll probably still be issued a provisional ballot, your ballot will probably be thrown away, but your registration card will be turned in and your vote will count next time. The provisional system is really for people who have moved within the same county or for whom there was a mix up.

For example: if you used to live in San Diego County and then moved to San Francisco County, you can not go in on election day and ask to vote in San Francisco. Even though San Diego and San Francisco will have the same President and US Senator and State-wide propositions, the registration card (with signature) will be sitting in San Diego, and the intial results will be posted sometime the next day.

But if you live in San Diego County and just move to a different part of the same county, then a provisional ballot is cool! Your vote will count.

The deadline for registering is coming quickly. October 18th for California!


Now for the bad news ... provisional ballots don't mean there is no reason to surpress registration forms. But if people do this, they are committing felons here, and people get really charged up about this sort of thing. Frankly it is stupid to cheat the system like this, when you can buy votes via TV ads. Or if you are really aggressive, you can post signs right outside the polling places. In Pennsylvania in 2000, they had signs for the people running for office literally inches away from the door of the polling play (a golf club garage) my grandmother votes in.

(For those of you interested, I'll be working in a garage this election, and my voting place -- which is different -- will be a hotel lobby.) :)

Non-Americans: where do you vote? In the US we tend to vote everywhere! Schools, hotels, car dealerships, people's homes, city halls, etc.

Yeah--I'm not positive, but I think provisional balloting was part of HAVA, and I think you described it perfectly. Some states have been arguing that you have to be in the right precinct for your provisional ballot to count, and one state was arguing that it would only count for the presidential election, and not for state elections.

The complaints in Oregon have been proven to have merit. Whereas the complaint from Nevada, doesn't have merit and is highly suspicious.

Partisan actions reach a new low...

From: http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2421595&nav=168XRvNe



Oh yes - this is also the same company that the Republican's used in some states to gather enough supposed names on petitions to get NAder on the state ticket.


Jim Morris actually clarified this today. A Republican funded group has no legal responsibility to register anyone but whoever they want, namely Republicans. The same applies to Democrats. So a Republican paid pollster or whoever can go around and turn in Republican registration forms, but doesn't have to turn in Democratic forms.

The grey area here is that the forms were ripped up and thrown away, which shouldn't have been done. But if a Republican group doesn't want to register Democrats, they don't have to. Thats what happened here. its not a massive fraud conspiracy or anything like that; calm your fuckin asses down.

Jim Morris actually clarified this today. A Republican funded group has no legal responsibility to register anyone but whoever they want, namely Republicans. The same applies to Democrats. So a Republican paid pollster or whoever can go around and turn in Republican registration forms, but doesn't have to turn in Democratic forms.

The grey area here is that the forms were ripped up and thrown away, which shouldn't have been done. But if a Republican group doesn't want to register Democrats, they don't have to. Thats what happened here. its not a massive fraud conspiracy or anything like that; calm your fuckin asses down.

Clarification

Neither party is required to register people from the other party, HOWEVER once they take an application they cannot destroy it. I think that once they take it they are obligated to turn it in.

Clarification

Neither party is required to register people from the other party, HOWEVER once they take an application they cannot destroy it. I think that once they take it they are obligated to turn it in.


Thats the grey area. They aren't obligated to turn it in, but neither can they simply destroy it.

Now what is wrong with dipping your thumb in uv-reflective invisible ink, then being checked with a blacklight?

It's bloodless, that's what's wrong. ;)

Clarification

Neither party is required to register people from the other party, HOWEVER once they take an application they cannot destroy it. I think that once they take it they are obligated to turn it in.

That is my understanding too! :)

This isn't just about the parties. The minute a group or organization hands out a registration card and says, "We'll turn these in for you", the new voter is expecting that the pre-stamped "mail" that they've handed over will make it in. Few counties want people registering hundreds of times just in case the people they hand their registration forms to change their minds.

Years ago in Texas the county would actually send me a voter card after I had registered to vote *long* before the election. Now in my present county, I only get confirmation about a month prior to an election, which an entire booklet that includes my sample ballot, my polling place, and two forms: one to volunteer and one to request and absentee ballot.

Yeah--I'm not positive, but I think provisional balloting was part of HAVA, and I think you described it perfectly. Some states have been arguing that you have to be in the right precinct for your provisional ballot to count, and one state was arguing that it would only count for the presidential election, and not for state elections.

I think the reason for voters to have to stay in their county has to do with the fact that all ballots are collected and counted at the county level. The signatures to verify who is legal (and provisional ballots are put into a secrecy envelop that the poll workers are supposed to describe the "condition" / reason why the ballot was provisional and not normal) exist at the county level.

The laws could be changed, but that would create a huge administration built around checking signatures and waiting for the mail *and* also having to standardize ballots between counties and maybe even states. Remember, each voting place might have its own unique ballot! :)

Electronic voting might be the answer ... but I don't feel confident in it yet, and I think many voters and counties share this opinion.

Thats the grey area. They aren't obligated to turn it in, but neither can they simply destroy it.
they shouldnt be taking registratiosn then from democrats, once they have registered, it should be turned in or fraud

damn i hate symantecs and crapass rules