NationStates Jolt Archive

From Eutrusca Article: Troops In Survey Back Bush 4 To 1
USA TODAY
October 4, 2004

An unscientific survey of U.S. military personnel shows they support President Bush for re-election by a 4-to-1 ratio. Two-thirds of those responding said John Kerry's anti-war activities after he returned from Vietnam make them less likely to vote for him.

In the survey of more than 4,000 full-time and part-time troops, 73% said they would vote for Bush if the election were held today; 18% said they would vote for Kerry. Of the respondents, 59% identified themselves as Republicans, 20% as independents and 13% as Democrats.

The survey was conducted Sept. 15-28 by the Army Times Publishing Co., which distributes the weekly newspapers Army Times, Navy Times, Air Force Times and Marine Corps Times. (Army Times Publishing is owned by Gannett, which also publishes USA TODAY.)

Army Times Publishing sent e-mails to more than 31,000 subscribers and received 4,165 responses on a secure Web site. The publisher cautioned that the results are not a scientific poll. Its readers are older, higher in rank and more career-oriented than the military as a whole.

Even so, experts who examined the survey results said they do not bode well for the Kerry campaign's efforts to woo the military, a traditionally Republican and conservative voting bloc. The Kerry campaign has highlighted his war record in an effort to burnish his credentials as a prospective commander in chief.

"You can't dismiss" the results, said Peter Feaver, a Duke University political scientist who for years has studied the political leanings of the U.S. military. Feaver said it's unlikely that Bush will receive 70% of votes cast by military personnel. But the results suggest it will be difficult for Kerry to make substantial gains among a group that has strongly supported Republican presidential candidates in the post-Vietnam era.

Feaver said he suspects Kerry is losing support among those in uniform because he seems less committed than Bush to prosecuting the war in Iraq.

Richard Kohn, a University of North Carolina history professor who has studied the political culture of the military, said the Bush campaign has been effective in creating the impression that, if elected, Kerry might "cut and run" in Iraq. "None of us who has studied Kerry's character believes that, but the Bush campaign has established in the public's mind a connection to Vietnam," Kohn said.

Kerry campaign spokesman David Wade called the Army Times Publishing effort "an inaccurate e-mail survey" and said that Kerry has "the vision and values to keep faith with military families and America's veterans."

Of survey respondents, 65% of active-duty and 67% of Guard and reserve troops said that Kerry's activities after Vietnam made them less likely to vote for him. Kerry served in Vietnam as a naval officer and was awarded a Silver Star, a Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts. He protested the war after returning home.

Only 12% of active-duty troops and 16% of Guard and reserve troops said Bush's actions in the National Guard made them less likely to vote for him. Bush received a coveted pilot's slot in the Texas Air National Guard during the height of the Vietnam War and missed a number of mandatory drills after he stopped flying fighter jets in April 1972.

Active-duty, Guard and reserve troops number about 2.4 million, a small slice of the electorate. But in closely contested states such as Florida, their votes could be crucial. The survey found little difference in presidential support among the four military branches.

While there is a lot of information available on how military veterans have voted, data on the voting patterns of active-duty personnel are scarce. Feaver said experts believe military personnel favored Bush over Al Gore 2-1 in the 2000 presidential race.

A number of military analysts, including Feaver, had been predicting as recently as this summer that Bush would suffer a slight erosion this year based on a number of factors, including misgivings about the conduct of the war in Iraq and dislike of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld in some military circles. Of those responding to the survey, about three-fifths said they approve of the way Bush is handling the situation in Iraq; one-quarter said they disapprove.

Military personnel who responded to the survey said they were generally happy with their jobs: 73% said they would re-enlist.

George W. Bush LIED about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, lied about Al-Qaida, and lies to the American public about how the War in Iraq is going. Why on EARTH would you vote for a president who does not have the intelligence or the integrity to prosecute the War On Terror? And when the HELL did John Kerry, a decorated Vietnam veteran, suddenly become a demon when compared to a rich oilman from Texas who DODGED service in that same conflict?!?! I know for a fact that Senator Kerry has the guts to lead the war on terror! Back on 9-11, when all the congressmen and women were fleeing the Capitol Building in an evacuation in Washington DC, someone just happened to have a video camera pointed at the great row of stairs leading down from Capitol Hill. As I watched the replay of this some time later and watched the sprinting politicians, I saw one man in suit coat and tie calmly strolling down the stairs. He even stopped to look up into the sky, as if DARING another terrorist-hijacked aircraft to appear. It took me a moment, but I realized that the man walking...WALKING! down the stairs was John Kerry. This is a man, I realized, who has been under fire before, whose life has been in danger before. At the time, he had no idea if a fourth plane was going to crash into the very spot on which he was standing or not, yet it did not seem to disturb him in the slightest. You and I would probably be on the verge of panic in such a situation. Hell, I was in Piqua, Ohio on 9-11, and I felt panicked by what I was wathcing on TV. But John Kerry was granite. We saw it again in his Thursday and Friday debates, respectively. At times when Bush seemed angry, confused, and combative, Kerry was calm, collected, and in control of the facts. You can't go on saying that Kerry's not worthy of the Presidency...the man's a brave leader. He proved that much in Vietnam, and again by standing up on the podium in front of millions of Americans and challenging George Bush. I wouldn't have the intestinal fortitude to do such a thing and remain as calm as Senator Kerry did!

I met Kerry at an unscheduled campaign stop in Troy, Ohio. He stopped, right in the heart of a bastion of Republican voters, right on the highway. He walked out of his bus and waded through the weeds and God-knows what else to come to the side of this large chain link fence we were standing behind. And he went down the entire length of this fence shaking all of our hands. It was more than a calculated political move. He at once disarmed the crowd, instilling a sense of trust and hope in the people who had waited in scorching hot weather to see the man. I myself was suffering from some hideous nausea and yet forced myself to go out and meet him. I needed to see the candidate face to face.

I tell you now, this man has the strength and leadership needed to be President. He's more credible than George W. Bush is. And he fought for his country before, and he'll do it again. Please....in the name of freedom, GIVE him that chance!

As a soldier in the United States Army, I think that both you and John Kerrys have no heart, and John Kerry is a horrible man, a horrible senator, and a horrible candidate. Congratualtions on finding you idealogical mate, a coward.

As a soldier in the United States Army, I think that both you and John Kerrys have no heart, and John Kerry is a horrible man, a horrible senator, and a horrible candidate. Congratualtions on finding you idealogical mate, a coward.
Uhuh. US navy gives out purple hearts and silver stars for cowardace.

As a soldier in the United States Army, I think that both you and John Kerrys have no heart, and John Kerry is a horrible man, a horrible senator, and a horrible candidate. Congratualtions on finding you idealogical mate, a coward.
ahh a soldier thats why you seem so brainwashed.

As a soldier in the United States Army, I think that both you and John Kerrys have no heart, and John Kerry is a horrible man, a horrible senator, and a horrible candidate. Congratualtions on finding you idealogical mate, a coward.

It sadens me to see, that bravery and strength in the army are so rarely accompanied by morals or reason.

I'd be pretty ticked at Bush if I were a soldier. Yet why is Kerry demonized for pointing out what is true?

I for one, think that the president got stuck with a horrible four years to serve as the U.S. president. I also think that if Kerry had been president during those four years, we would be much worse off than we are right now. I just don't think that Kerry would make a very good president. Like they say: "A vote for Kerry, is a vote for the terrorists."

I for one, think that the president got stuck with a horrible four years to serve as the U.S. president. I also think that if Kerry had been president during those four years, we would be much worse off than we are right now. I just don't think that Kerry would make a very good president. Like they say: "A vote for Kerry, is a vote for the terrorists."
Who says that?

As an outside observer with no real interest in the american politcal system apart from the almost inevitable terrible effect it will have on the rest of the world, I find it hard to believe that people would vote for some so clearly unintelligent as george bush!

he is not a man who should have been given all the power, and as he has been he should be prevented from keeping hold of it

I'd be pretty ticked at Bush if I were a soldier. Yet why is Kerry demonized for pointing out what is true?
like i said: the brainwashed

Who says that?

I hear it quite a bit on TV, the internet, and even people around me say it.

Like they say: "A vote for Kerry, is a vote for the terrorists."
Bush is the best recruiter al-Qaeda could hope for: Nothing validates their argument that we're rapacious imperialist Zionist crusaders like invading two countries and killing over 12,000 people.

I hear it quite a bit on TV, the internet, and even people around me say it.
I've never heard that said on the TV. I guess that stuff doesn't go over well where people understand what is going on...


Ever get someone to back up that statement?

...I saw one man in suit coat and tie calmly strolling down the stairs. He even stopped to look up into the sky, as if DARING another terrorist-hijacked aircraft to appear. It took me a moment, but I realized that the man walking...WALKING! down the stairs was John Kerry. This is a man, I realized, who has been under fire before, whose life has been in danger before. At the time, he had no idea if a fourth plane was going to crash into the very spot on which he was standing or not, yet it did not seem to disturb him in the slightest...

I understand your point on him being calm and in control, but regardless of that, he was risking his life by moving slowly. What if another plane had hit right then (such as you suggested might happen), or one of the support beams had collapsed? That wouldn't exactly be my first choice of action in such an extreme emergency.

I find it hard to believe that people would vote for some so clearly unintelligent as george bush!
The Republican party's propaganda machine brilliantly manipulates the peoples' blind nationalism. It's very Orwellian.

As a soldier in the United States Army, I think that both you and John Kerrys have no heart, and John Kerry is a horrible man, a horrible senator, and a horrible candidate. Congratualtions on finding you idealogical mate, a coward.


i didn't know that you knew john kerry and everybody associated with his ideas. you must be very popular. ass.

Are the people you're adressing in the letter the soldiers? If so, then statements like You and I would probably be on the verge of panic in such a situation. seem pretty silly, seeing as they're at risk of being shot and killed every day.

what can't you do with friends in high places eh?

i didn't know that you knew john kerry and everybody associated with his ideas. you must be very popular. ass.
I know more than enough of them to know that they will allow the terroists free reign to harm my loved ones and my nations, assmaster.

*reads posts above*

Why do I even bother posting on political threads where it is clear that no one shares my opinion? :headbang:

I know more than enough of them to know that they will allow the terroists free reign to harm my loved ones and my nations, assmaster.
Assmaster?


Hey, maybe if we didn't run amok in countries that weren't harboring terrorists, we could protect ourselves better.

as to why the overseas military supports bush

its really hard to be serving in the middle of a war, seeing friends being killed and maimed, shooting at people who may or may not be terrorists, and be able to accept the fact that it is a horrible mistake. that truth is just too much for most active duty soldiers to consider

this is why john kerry is a freaking HERO for what he did after he got back from vietnam. to have a soldier be willing to go in front of congress and tell the TRUTH, that the war he was just fighting is a horrible mistake is extremely moving. it takes a rare kind of courage to face what we were doing there.

and we do have to ask ourselves


WHO WANTS TO BE THE LAST MAN TO DIE FOR GEORGE BUSH'S MISTAKE IN INVADING IRAQ?

Here's what I know from what I've seen and heard. (But then again, that may not really be much, huh?)

John Kerry:
1. He wants to stop putting soldiers in harm's way when other means could be used.
2. He is obviously against Bush for presenting false information on weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
3. He does want to stop the terrorists, but he thinks that what Bush is doing is all a wild goose chase.

George Bush:
1. He wants to protect the American people with the elimination of such terrorist organizations as the Al-Qaida.
2. He thinks that trying to go about a war peacefully has almost no chance of success.
3. He wants to prevent anyone from causing America such evils that were seen on 9/11.

But thats just my two cents.

George W. Bush LIED about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, lied about Al-Qaida, and lies to the American public about how the War in Iraq is going. Why on EARTH would you vote for a president who does not have the intelligence or the integrity to prosecute the War On Terror? And when the HELL did John Kerry, a decorated Vietnam veteran, suddenly become a demon when compared to a rich oilman from Texas who DODGED service in that same conflict?!?! I know for a fact that Senator Kerry has the guts to lead the war on terror! Back on 9-11, when all the congressmen and women were fleeing the Capitol Building in an evacuation in Washington DC, someone just happened to have a video camera pointed at the great row of stairs leading down from Capitol Hill. As I watched the replay of this some time later and watched the sprinting politicians, I saw one man in suit coat and tie calmly strolling down the stairs. He even stopped to look up into the sky, as if DARING another terrorist-hijacked aircraft to appear. It took me a moment, but I realized that the man walking...WALKING! down the stairs was John Kerry. This is a man, I realized, who has been under fire before, whose life has been in danger before. At the time, he had no idea if a fourth plane was going to crash into the very spot on which he was standing or not, yet it did not seem to disturb him in the slightest. You and I would probably be on the verge of panic in such a situation. Hell, I was in Piqua, Ohio on 9-11, and I felt panicked by what I was wathcing on TV. But John Kerry was granite. We saw it again in his Thursday and Friday debates, respectively. At times when Bush seemed angry, confused, and combative, Kerry was calm, collected, and in control of the facts. You can't go on saying that Kerry's not worthy of the Presidency...the man's a brave leader. He proved that much in Vietnam, and again by standing up on the podium in front of millions of Americans and challenging George Bush. I wouldn't have the intestinal fortitude to do such a thing and remain as calm as Senator Kerry did!

I met Kerry at an unscheduled campaign stop in Troy, Ohio. He stopped, right in the heart of a bastion of Republican voters, right on the highway. He walked out of his bus and waded through the weeds and God-knows what else to come to the side of this large chain link fence we were standing behind. And he went down the entire length of this fence shaking all of our hands. It was more than a calculated political move. He at once disarmed the crowd, instilling a sense of trust and hope in the people who had waited in scorching hot weather to see the man. I myself was suffering from some hideous nausea and yet forced myself to go out and meet him. I needed to see the candidate face to face.

I tell you now, this man has the strength and leadership needed to be President. He's more credible than George W. Bush is. And he fought for his country before, and he'll do it again. Please....in the name of freedom, GIVE him that chance!

If Bush lied about WMDs, why wouldn't he have faked their discovery in order to save his own image? An interesting thought. There may or may not have been WMDs, but if not, it was based on bad intelligence; Bush was confused along with the rest of us. Plus, this country has been engaged in military and economic action against Saddam for the past 16 years; this war was inevitable. President Bush just took care of it sooner rather than later. Saddam constantly paid off the families of suicide bombers. He sent a formal invitation to Osama Bin Laden, asking him to come to Iraq. Obviously, there was no connection whatsoever between them.
President Bush did graduate from Harvard; he isn't a stupid man, and don't feed me crap about 'he bought his grades' because he got Cs and Ds. Had he bought them, they would have been Bs and As. Also, John Kerry isn't rich but Bush is? The last time I checked, Kerry and his wife were worth about 1,500 times that of President Bush. John Kerry did indeed walk down the stairs, 45 minutes after he had been ordered to evacuate to an emergency meeting place with the Congress. So, President Bush sat in a classroom for 7 minutes; he was shocked. We all were shocked. I can't blame the President for that. Why, however, did Senator Kerry ignore the order to evacuate to a secret meeting point in order to address the attacks when everyone else in the Congress (besides a few friends that Kerry was with; Senator Reid and Senator Daschle) did? Thank you for proving my contention. Now, I'm not going to attack Kerry on Vietnam, but I haven't seen any solid proof that he is a 'hero.' Heroes don't come back and call their comrades-at-arms murderers.
Do you think that Kerry would be a great leader? Think again.

It's always nice to see so much love and respect among the politically minded of varying views. I'm sure this calm, level debate is bringing out the best of both sides of the argument.

And I'll leave it at that.

*reads posts above*

Why do I even bother posting on political threads where it is clear that no one shares my opinion? :headbang:

You won't know for sure if someone shares your opinion if you don't post it.

It's always nice to see so much love and respect among the politically minded of varying views. I'm sure this calm, level debate is bringing out the best of both sides of the argument.

And I'll leave it at that.

:D

Hmm... Assmaster? Haven't heard that one before.

Anyway. I would like to point out that Bush is a corrupt idiot.

Thank you. Goodbye.

this whole Bush lied thing is getting quite funny, If you read the recent report even the Iraqi Army believed they had WMD's right up untill the day the war started. And yet somehow Bush was supposed to know more the even the Iraqi Army

hilarious, I suppose some expect Bush to be miss Cleo

Hmm... Assmaster? Haven't heard that one before.

Anyway. I would like to point out that Bush is a corrupt idiot.

Thank you. Goodbye.

I guess you really don't need to back that up, because most of the evidence is right in the first post :D

Bloody hell thats one long post.

Bloody hell thats one long post.

Oh yea.

I love the way the military would rather serve a man who ran away from war but instigates it where he can.

While Kerry fought in it and was decorated but having done so commdably well for his country is chastised for saying it was an atrocity. Obviously he a heartless deserter...no wait thats Bush...

What the hell?

As for Mr military, Assmaster? Not only completely illogical but a homophobe!

Lets review, decorated soldier, has fought well but belives war isnt the way.

Coward, ran from his service, but agreed with going to war.

One man fought for his nation just becuase it was his nation even though he disagreed.

One man agreed ut was too chicken to fight.

Sorry for reapeating myself. But OMG my jaw is slack!

Anyway, that small discrepancy aside, Bush and Kerry are both asses. Neither deserve presidency. Its a shame one will win.

Anyway, that small discrepancy aside, Bush and Kerry are both asses. Neither deserve presidency. Its a shame one will win.

GO THAT OTHER GUY!! :D

...(what was his name, Nylan or something?)...

I love the way the military would rather serve a man who ran away from war but instigates it where he can.

While Kerry fought in it and was decorated but having done so commdably well for his country is chastised for saying it was an atrocity. Obviously he a heartless deserter...no wait thats Bush...

What the hell?

As for Mr military, Assmaster? Not only completely illogical but a homophobe!

Lets review, decorated soldier, has fought well but belives war isnt the way.

Coward, ran from his service, but agreed with going to war.

One man fought for his nation just becuase it was his nation even though he disagreed.

One man agreed ut was too chicken to fight.

Sorry for reapeating myself. But OMG my jaw is slack!

Anyway, that small discrepancy aside, Bush and Kerry are both asses. Neither deserve presidency. Its a shame one will win.


Tell me, what's one good criticism of Kerry that hasn't come from the lips of the Bush administration (who definitely were found to have lied specifically about the aluminum tubing, the Niger Uranium, and the Atta in Prague story,) or the mouths of the fully discredited SBVT crowd?

If Bush lied about WMDs, why wouldn't he have faked their discovery in order to save his own image?
Because if that deception would be uncovered... Well, it's hard to run a re-election campaign while you're being impeached.

Heroes don't come back and call their comrades-at-arms murderers.
He only restated what others had admitted.

hilarious, I suppose some expect Bush to be miss Cleo
He should at least not act like he's got alzheimer's. I laughed at the WMD 'evidence' they were trying to pass off.

There's nothing WRONG with these people. They just have their opinions, and I think that Bush is a much better Commander.

oh maybe that he has addmitted to commiting war atrocities. then comes home admits it to a senate panel, then gets a pat on the back for being "brave". my as a true brave soldier would have tried to stop them or at the very least report them to superiors. he did neither. he came home admits to taking part in them and then is rewarded.
he is a true coward

oh maybe that he has addmitted to commiting war atrocities. then comes home admits it to a senate panel, then gets a pat on the back for being "brave". my as a true brave soldier would have tried to stop them or at the very least report them to superiors. he did neither. he came home admits to taking part in them and then is rewarded.
he is a true coward
A coward wouldn't have said anything.

Well, Id say that he originally supported the Iraq war, which was obviously a farce from the start. Or at least it was in England. THe BBC were very smug about it being a joke. I mean, we knew they were lying from the start, and if the entire of the UK can tell, why cant such a strong candidate.

All his debate and policy so far is more concerned with undermining Bush rather than what he can do. But hey, is the same in the UK, i am voting mosnter raving looney in the UK election. At least they are progressive. (colour roads the colour they are on maps... no one will get lost... give women the vote... well they beat the other parties to it all that time ago anyway ...etc)

Also, think about it. They're sitting there, having friends getting shot and blown up. A clean war wasn't going to happen, anyways.

I find it hard to believe that people would vote for some so clearly unintelligent as george bush!
I believe the President would be intelligent enough to capitalize a proper noun, especially when that proper noun happens to be the Prestident of the United States.
Either way... Stop bringing the candidate's military experiences into the arguement over who should win. Personally I dont see how Kerry was a "war hero" any man who throws his medals away because he is ashamed to have served in the war is most definately not a war hero. Also, he then proceeds to campaign on his winning of said medals. Also, the arguement that Bush lied about the way is completely ridiculous. The intelligence he was given supported the fact that Iraq had the WMD's, when the UN tried to inspect they were turned away for long enough a time to get rid of teh weapons, and it is a known fact that Iraq had ties to terrorist leaders.

So now, make a qualified point about why Kerry is so great and Bush isn't "He is an idiot."

A coward wouldn't have said anything.

not true, he was covering his ass & setting up a political career at the expense of "fellow" soldiers. I call that a true coward.

just going home & shutting up would have just been a normal soldier

Who says that?

Well ... me, for one! :D

I know more than enough of them to know that they will allow the terroists free reign to harm my loved ones and my nations, assmaster.
Indeed we have to strike at the terrorists first - on the subject of Iraq, though, I have decided not to judge (yet) and let history unfold more until I feel confident in making my opinion

As an outside observer with no real interest in the american politcal system apart from the almost inevitable terrible effect it will have on the rest of the world, I find it hard to believe that people would vote for some so clearly unintelligent as george bush!

he is not a man who should have been given all the power, and as he has been he should be prevented from keeping hold of it

Not if it means putting Kerry in charge! Ick! :D

He should at least not act like he's got alzheimer's. I laughed at the WMD 'evidence' they were trying to pass off.
What part of "THE IRAQI ARMY BELIEVED THEY HAD WMD"S" do you not understand. How was ANYBODY supposed to know more than the iraqi army?
Saddam wanted the world to believe he had them. as the old saying goes,

"be carefull what you wish for you might just get it"

Bush is the best recruiter al-Qaeda could hope for: Nothing validates their argument that we're rapacious imperialist Zionist crusaders like invading two countries and killing over 12,000 people.

Awww! Poor lil innocent terrorists! So mistreated! Tsk! :D

The Republican party's propaganda machine brilliantly manipulates the peoples' blind nationalism. It's very Orwellian.

How ironic that a leftist should refer to anyone else as "Orwellian!" DO try to keep in mind that George Orwell, author of "1984" and "The Animal Farm" was writing about a totalitarian SOCIALIST state. I realize that most leftists are reality challenged, but that's carrying it just a BIT far, don't you think? :D

*reads posts above*

Why do I even bother posting on political threads where it is clear that no one shares my opinion? :headbang:

I suspect your views are at least similar to mine. Yes? No? Maybe??

as to why the overseas military supports bush

its really hard to be serving in the middle of a war, seeing friends being killed and maimed, shooting at people who may or may not be terrorists, and be able to accept the fact that it is a horrible mistake. that truth is just too much for most active duty soldiers to consider

this is why john kerry is a freaking HERO for what he did after he got back from vietnam. to have a soldier be willing to go in front of congress and tell the TRUTH, that the war he was just fighting is a horrible mistake is extremely moving. it takes a rare kind of courage to face what we were doing there.

and we do have to ask ourselves


WHO WANTS TO BE THE LAST MAN TO DIE FOR GEORGE BUSH'S MISTAKE IN INVADING IRAQ?

John Kerry ... HERO? Aaahahahahahahahahha! What universe do YOU live in??? :D

not true, he was covering his ass & setting up a political career at the expense of "fellow" soldiers. I call that a true coward.

just going home & shutting up would have just been a normal soldier

I agree. Why would a hero have a home movie camera with him out in the field? Last time I checked, he was the skipper of a Swiftboat, not a journalist.
I guess the film comes in handy when you are running for office.

If Bush lied about WMDs, why wouldn't he have faked their discovery in order to save his own image? An interesting thought. There may or may not have been WMDs, but if not, it was based on bad intelligence; Bush was confused along with the rest of us. Plus, this country has been engaged in military and economic action against Saddam for the past 16 years; this war was inevitable. President Bush just took care of it sooner rather than later. Saddam constantly paid off the families of suicide bombers. He sent a formal invitation to Osama Bin Laden, asking him to come to Iraq. Obviously, there was no connection whatsoever between them.
President Bush did graduate from Harvard; he isn't a stupid man, and don't feed me crap about 'he bought his grades' because he got Cs and Ds. Had he bought them, they would have been Bs and As. Also, John Kerry isn't rich but Bush is? The last time I checked, Kerry and his wife were worth about 1,500 times that of President Bush. John Kerry did indeed walk down the stairs, 45 minutes after he had been ordered to evacuate to an emergency meeting place with the Congress. So, President Bush sat in a classroom for 7 minutes; he was shocked. We all were shocked. I can't blame the President for that. Why, however, did Senator Kerry ignore the order to evacuate to a secret meeting point in order to address the attacks when everyone else in the Congress (besides a few friends that Kerry was with; Senator Reid and Senator Daschle) did? Thank you for proving my contention. Now, I'm not going to attack Kerry on Vietnam, but I haven't seen any solid proof that he is a 'hero.' Heroes don't come back and call their comrades-at-arms murderers.
Do you think that Kerry would be a great leader? Think again.


Good point! But the "HERO" was right in defaming all us Veitnam vets, wasn't he? I mean, he spent SO much time in Vietnam ... all of four months ... that he knew ALL about us, right?

John Kerry ... HERO? Aaahahahahahahahahha! What universe do YOU live in??? :D

Oh you know. Earth. Milky Way. That one.

Not sure about YOU, on the other hand.

Tell me which is more honorable:

Admiting the unwanted truths that others have asked you to speak of, even if it comes back to bite you.

Running away.

lets see Bush graduated from Harvard, they just don't hand those out to everybody, he got into the fighter traning program, that is very hard to do, he qualified to be a fighter pilot (even harder to do).

and as somebody who has and has a child with speech problems it has NOTHING to do with intellegence, what happens is your brain works faster than your mouth can so you get toungue tied. and there are a few ways to deal with it. slow down (but that causes you to go um & ahh while you think about the thought you were thinking about that your brain has already finished and gone onto the next one) you can try and talk faster, but that causes you to say some strange words. or you can do nothing, but that causes you to stutter. so you people can drop the stupid comments because it says more about yourselves than it does about Bush.

this whole Bush lied thing is getting quite funny, If you read the recent report even the Iraqi Army believed they had WMD's right up untill the day the war started. And yet somehow Bush was supposed to know more the even the Iraqi Army

hilarious, I suppose some expect Bush to be miss Cleo

But ... but ... but, wasn't Bush suppose to be omniscient, like the "HERO" Kerry???? Tsk!

I guess you really don't need to back that up, because most of the evidence is right in the first post :D

Evidence? Evidence? What "evidence?" Supposition, allegation and obfuscation do not "evidence" make. Tsk! :D

Bloody hell thats one long post.

Yes. It takes a long time to make sure you obfuscate effectively. :D

I love the way the military would rather serve a man who ran away from war but instigates it where he can.

While Kerry fought in it and was decorated but having done so commdably well for his country is chastised for saying it was an atrocity. Obviously he a heartless deserter...no wait thats Bush...

What the hell?

As for Mr military, Assmaster? Not only completely illogical but a homophobe!

Lets review, decorated soldier, has fought well but belives war isnt the way.

Coward, ran from his service, but agreed with going to war.

One man fought for his nation just becuase it was his nation even though he disagreed.

One man agreed ut was too chicken to fight.

Sorry for reapeating myself. But OMG my jaw is slack!

Anyway, that small discrepancy aside, Bush and Kerry are both asses. Neither deserve presidency. Its a shame one will win.

Reality is a real challenge for you, isn't it! Sigh.

Tell me, what's one good criticism of Kerry that hasn't come from the lips of the Bush administration (who definitely were found to have lied specifically about the aluminum tubing, the Niger Uranium, and the Atta in Prague story,) or the mouths of the fully discredited SBVT crowd?

Your definition of the word "lieing" is so broad as to include virtually the entire population of the earth. Just more verification of the left being willing to change anything and everything to suit their agenda.

Good point! But the "HERO" was right in defaming all us Veitnam vets, wasn't he? I mean, he spent SO much time in Vietnam ... all of four months ... that he knew ALL about us, right?

Okay. I would be with you if Kerry defamed all Vietnam Vets. His speech though, very specifically, refers to the group of veterans he spoke to that comprised the Vietnam Vets Against the War (before he left it when it became too militant.)

Yes, the soundbites distributed by Kerry's detractors makes it seem like he was defaming all vets. What was edited out were his remarks preceding those statements that makes it clear that he was only referring to a limited number of vets. Please read the unedited speech, and the come back and tell me you still have the same conclusion.

Because if that deception would be uncovered... Well, it's hard to run a re-election campaign while you're being impeached.


He only restated what others had admitted.


He should at least not act like he's got alzheimer's. I laughed at the WMD 'evidence' they were trying to pass off.

Kerry restated, supported, furthered and believed what the VVWA testifiers had said, even though it was proven that most of them had never even BEEN in Vietnam. NOW who has Alzheimers?

oh and another thing, every time people say Bush dodged the war by going into the guard it insults every guard member, past, current and future. and you guys wonder why the military supports Bush

A coward wouldn't have said anything.

:rolleyes: Ok then, he's only 1/2 a coward. Better?

Also, think about it. They're sitting there, having friends getting shot and blown up. A clean war wasn't going to happen, anyways.

"Clean war" is an oxymoron.

i didn't know that you knew john kerry and everybody associated with his ideas. you must be very popular. ass.



Ghetto Box, I see you have degenerated into what your name says!

Kerry restated, supported, furthered and believed what the VVWA testifiers had said, even though it was proven that most of them had never even BEEN in Vietnam. NOW who has Alzheimers?

I will admit that SOME falsified their connection to Vietnam. There are dishonest people on all ssides of an issue. Please cite a source that PROVES that MOST of them never went to Vietnam. Also, if you hold Kerry accountable for those who lied to him, then you have to hold Bush accountable for those who lied to HIM...which implicates Bush in the whole WMD thing then.

I'm sure you are aware that a number of Swift Boat Vets for Truth have recanted or revealed that they had no 1st hand knowledge of Kerry's actions, correct? Yet you continue to cite them, even though they have been more thoroughly refuted than the VVWA has.

As has been stated earlier, Bush graduated from Harvard, and became a fighter pilot, both are difficult to do.

Although the man has hardly been honest in all his "dealings", for lack of a better word, and he has not always made the best decisions, that doesn't mean he's a dumb ass.

The man has bad langauge skills, he just isn't a good public speeker, and he's the damned president for heavens sake!!!! I don't care that he isn't a very good one, he deserves some respect.

As has been stated earlier, Bush graduated from Harvard, and became a fighter pilot, both are difficult to do.

Although the man has hardly been honest in all his "dealings", for lack of a better word, and he has not always made the best decisions, that doesn't mean he's a dumb ass.

The man has bad langauge skills, he just isn't a good public speeker, and he's the damned president for heavens sake!!!! I don't care that he isn't a very good one, he deserves some respect.

I would suggest that the whole point of Democracy is that you don't have to respect a bad President.

I would suggest that the whole point of Democracy is that you don't have to respect a bad President.

Yet he was still elected, and for some reason alot of people who criticise him act like the president is supposed to be perfect, and that they think they could do a better job, which in most cases I doubt.

As a soldier in the United States Army, I think that both you and John Kerrys have no heart, and John Kerry is a horrible man, a horrible senator, and a horrible candidate. Congratualtions on finding you idealogical mate, a coward.


At least Kerry fought in a war. Not like the little cock-sucking coward in office.

Are you an Intelligent, truth loving American? Then Wait no further! Come to Europe and help us build a better world for all to live in :)

PS: I read someone write that Bush was alqaeda's greatest recruiter.. no greater truth.

At least Kerry fought in a war. Not like the little cock-sucking coward in office.

and people like you call Bush stupid. Why do you insist on insulting guard members. serving in the guard is a honorable way to serve your country, I didn't hear the left complaining about clinton outright DODGING the draft. at least Bush served his country

Hmm... Assmaster? Haven't heard that one before.

Anyway. I would like to point out that Bush is a corrupt idiot.

Thank you. Goodbye. :rolleyes:
Only a corrupt idiot would belive that President Bush is a corrupt idiot.

Bye.

PS: I read someone write that Bush was alqaeda's greatest recruiter.. no greater truth.

give me a break, that makes a good sound bite but it is complete BS, they have never had trouble finding recruits because of the way they are raised, The best way to help A.Q. would be to huddle in the corner scared or to try an appease them. that whole notion is COMPLETE BS and a lie that the left would like everybody to believe for their own gain

pathetic

As a soldier in the United States Army, I think that both you and John Kerrys have no heart, and John Kerry is a horrible man, a horrible senator, and a horrible candidate. Congratualtions on finding you idealogical mate, a coward.

As a US Army Ranger, I completely disagree with you. So ... there it is.

and people like you call Bush stupid. Why do you insist on insulting guard members. serving in the guard is a honorable way to serve your country, I didn't hear the left complaining about clinton outright DODGING the draft. at least Bush served his country
Of course, back then in 1992 and 96 the fact that George Bush and Bob Dole were in the military was much less a reason to elect a president then John Kerry's service is now in 04 to the people who are trumpeting Kerry's service the loudest.

John Kerry 1992 :
"I am saddened by the fact that Vietnam has yet again been inserted into the campaign, and that it has been inserted in what I feel to be the worst possible way... What saddens me most is that Democrats, above all those who shared the agonies of that generation, should now be re-fighting the many conflicts of Vietnam in order to win the current political conflict of a presidential primary"

Well, Id say that he originally supported the Iraq war...
Kerry voted to authorize the president to use force. He hoped Bush wouldn't use it in the way that he did. Kerry's point is that he would have gone to war differently. Such as with an exit strategy.
I believe the President would be intelligent enough to capitalize a proper noun, especially when that proper noun happens to be the Prestident of the United States.
Self-zing!
But I digress. To address your point, "rumors on the internets".
he was covering his ass & setting up a political career at the expense of "fellow" soldiers. I call that a true coward.
If he had been intentionally trying to betray the other soldiers, he would have named names. His goal at the Winter Soldier hearing was to point out that bad things happen in war.
What part of "THE IRAQI ARMY BELIEVED THEY HAD WMD"S" do you not understand. How was ANYBODY supposed to know more than the iraqi army?
Saddam wanted the world to believe he had them.
Yes, he did, because showing weakness would most have likely resulted in his enemies killing him. He wanted us to think he had no WMDs (so that we would not invade), but he wanted his neighbors to think he did (so that they would not kill him). His soldiers knew nothing. Tell me off the top of your head, how many B-2 bombers do we have?
Awww! Poor lil innocent terrorists! So mistreated! Tsk!
Hey, I'm all for killing people who we have evidence on. But the rule of law must always be maintained, or else we're hypocrites. Hypocrisy is bad for our image; it makes us look like rapacious barbarian Zionist crusaders. And when we shoot up Ahmed's Eatery because some nervous GI thought he saw someone with a gun, Ahmed joins the insurgency. For every child we kill and every screaming Muslim mother, three of their cousins are now Mahdi recruits.
How ironic that a leftist should refer to anyone else as "Orwellian!" DO try to keep in mind that George Orwell, author of "1984" and "The Animal Farm" was writing about a totalitarian SOCIALIST state.
Uh, 'cause he wrote it in, what, 1947? It doesn't matter what kind of economic system the country in question has. In fact, the economic system is rarely brought up in the book (except to point out that the rationing is very stringent).
The important parts of 1984 are these: The country is in a constant state of war. Check. The people believe that the war is just and winnable, despite the conclusion reached with some logic. Check. Instead of calmly discussing both sides to reach a concensus, the people are bombarded with patriotic messages and images, and anyone who disagrees is a traitor. Check.
The government won't even admit when it's obviously wrong. Instead, it changes history. Check.
Good point! But the "HERO" was right in defaming all us Veitnam vets, wasn't he?
Maybe, but he was pointing out the truth. I would rather have a president who tells the truth no matter how painful it is to hear.
Bush got into the fighter traning program
Bush was perfectly fit to go to Vietnam, but instead he tried to get into the national guard, which is fine. What's questionable is how he jumped the waiting list by having his rich daddy call some favors.
Your definition of the word "lieing" is so broad as to include virtually the entire population of the earth.
Maybe Bush wasn't lying, but he certainly was using questionable evidence. A better man would not have used any evidence that he was not absolutely certain of. But if you cut out all the questionable evidence that they were trying to pass off as fact, then there is nothing substantial.
"Clean war" is an oxymoron.
That's right. So we shouldn't have so flippiantly gone to Iraq.
The man has bad langauge skills, he just isn't a good public speeker, and he's the damned president for heavens sake!!!! I don't care that he isn't a very good one, he deserves some respect.
Yeah, it's very inspiring that a man who may be clinically retarded can become president. Why, with that sort of precedent, there's no reason why I couldn't learn to shoot lasers from eyes.

I for one, think that the president got stuck with a horrible four years to serve as the U.S. president. I also think that if Kerry had been president during those four years, we would be much worse off than we are right now. I just don't think that Kerry would make a very good president. Like they say: "A vote for Kerry, is a vote for the terrorists."

On the other hand, some would say that it was Bush being president that had a great deal with those four years being so horrible. And I doubt that Kerry would have skewed intelligence so horrendously to gain support for an illegitimate war.

give me a break, that makes a good sound bite but it is complete BS, they have never had trouble finding recruits because of the way they are raised
Okay, I'll put it this way.
Muhammed Akbar al-Husayni hypothetically owns a small business selling electronics in downtown Baghdad. He doesn't really care about politics, and didn't care either way about the invasion. Sure, he fought in the Iraq-Iran war, but who didn't?
So now there are all these foreign soldiers cruising around. Okay, whatever, just as long as it doesn't get in the way of his business.
Then one day, an insurgent uses Akbar's shop as cover to shoot at a US convoy. He fires twice and bolts down the alley. The convoy retaliates with massive fire, like they're trained.
Akbar's shop is now a smoking pile of rubble. Do you think he's still impartial?
The Mahdi suddenly have a new recruit.

this whole Bush lied thing is getting quite funny, If you read the recent report even the Iraqi Army believed they had WMD's right up untill the day the war started. And yet somehow Bush was supposed to know more the even the Iraqi Army

hilarious, I suppose some expect Bush to be miss Cleo

If he wasn't sure, he shouldn't have invaded until he was. And that still doesn't excuse him saying that the US had actually found WMD's when, as even he admitted during the debates, we didn't know that Iraq didn't have WMD's until after we got there (so, those sanctions against Hussein were working after all, it would seem?).

And he has the nerve to call Kerry a flipflopper

As a US Army Ranger, I completely disagree with you. So ... there it is.
So there what is? :rolleyes:

You are in the extreme minority, then, if you are a Ranger, and are so stupid as to believe the crap that Kerry is feeding you. Those of us in the MOSs that require a higher GT score think Kerry is an idiot. So, there it is.

Awww! Poor lil innocent terrorists! So mistreated! Tsk! :D

And too bad for all those people who aren't terrorists and just happen to get in the way.

John Kerry ... HERO? Aaahahahahahahahahha! What universe do YOU live in??? :D
Perhaps the one where he has war medals and commendations from his superior officers?

And too bad for all those people who aren't terrorists and just happen to get in the way.
Like the thousands murdered by terrorists in New York, and DC and Pennsylvania. Ass.

Good point! But the "HERO" was right in defaming all us Veitnam vets, wasn't he? I mean, he spent SO much time in Vietnam ... all of four months ... that he knew ALL about us, right?
ALL Viet nam vets? When did Kerry defame ALL Vietnam vets? From what I understand, he only said that SOME Vietnam vets were culpable.

I for one, think that the president got stuck with a horrible four years to serve as the U.S. president. I also think that if Kerry had been president during those four years, we would be much worse off than we are right now. I just don't think that Kerry would make a very good president. Like they say: "A vote for Kerry, is a vote for the terrorists."
"They"? by "they" you mean Charles manson and Bill'oreilly's gaping, blubbering vagina, right?

oh and another thing, every time people say Bush dodged the war by going into the guard it insults every guard member, past, current and future. and you guys wonder why the military supports Bush
No, it only insults those guard members who joined to dodge the war- which does not include a vast majority of guard members, either past, present, or during the Viet Nam war. To use your logic, to call everyone who dodged the war by using a college deferment a coward insults everyone whoever went to college.

As a US Army Ranger, I completely disagree with you. So ... there it is.

You're a Ranger? Still in or has your enlistment expired?

No, it only insults those guard members who joined to dodge the war- which does not include a vast majority of guard members, either past, present, or during the Viet Nam war. To use your logic, to call everyone who dodged the war by using a college deferment a coward insults everyone whoever went to college.

I just love how you now Bushes motivations Miss Cleo, Can you tell me what college my kids will goto. Bush qualified for fighter training and according to the guard there WAS NO WAITING LIST, he got in because he qualified just like EVERYBODY else who qualified.

and i have never said people who used college deferments were cowards, they did what the y did within the law, I have never called clinton a coward either or assumed what his motivations were untill he opened his own mouth, so your arguements hold no water with me.

Like the thousands murdered by terrorists in New York, and DC and Pennsylvania. Ass.
They killed 3000 innocents. We killed 11,000 innocents.

They killed 3000 innocents. We killed 11,000 innocents.
Yeah, we did, and the martians helped us do it with their laser death rays. :rolleyes:

Yeah, we did, and the martians helped us do it with their laser death rays. :rolleyes:

Damn martians! See?!?!?! I warned you about Cheney!!

Like the thousands murdered by terrorists in New York, and DC and Pennsylvania. Ass.
Ah, so terrorists killing innocents now makes it ok for us to kill innocents. And we call ourselves "civilized"?
And that "ass" comment just bounced off my insult-proof forcefield, so you're going to have to try much harder than that if you're going to have any effect.

They killed 3000 innocents. We killed 11,000 innocents.

ok i am going to break my personal rules for a second here:

HOW DARE YOU COMPARE THE 2 you sack of shit, we did not set out to kill innocent people, and secondly haow many of those innocent people were not innocent. I am by no means stupid enough to believe that we havn't killed some innocent people but to compare the 2 just shows your complete lack of brain power.

sorry folks, but stuff like that just irks me, the personal attacks like that won't happen again from me

Oh, so we're guilty of "involutary manslaughter" and "reckless endangerment" instead of "1st degree murder," and that makes us 'right'? That justifies 11,000 deaths?

Oh, so we're guilty of "involutary manslaughter" and "reckless endangerment" instead of "1st degree murder," and that makes us 'right'? That justifies 11,000 deaths?
Better to kill 11,000 "innocent" than to let them kill a million Americans. Least harm and all that.

Better to kill 11,000 "innocent" than to let them kill a million Americans. Least harm and all that.
Rome had a similar policy. Did you know that Rome never fought an 'offensive' war? The local governor or general always found an excuse. You see, Rome wanted peace, they really did. But they wanted it on their terms. Their terms could be equated to weapons inspectors. When a neighbor would not comply, because the terms were unfair and did not respect the country's soverignty, Rome invaded, giving the common people the reasoning that if they aren't going to comply with our every demand, then they must be secretly trying to destroy us.
Sound familiar?

Whats wrong with the people?They are disagreeing with you thats whats wrong with you,God forbid!

Your so worried about them being "brainwashed by the evil republicans" yet when they disagree with your views,theres something wrong with them and are justified to be insulted.

Ah, so terrorists killing innocents now makes it ok for us to kill innocents. And we call ourselves "civilized"?
And that "ass" comment just bounced off my insult-proof forcefield, so you're going to have to try much harder than that if you're going to have any effect.
You are a sad person. Let's play horse. I'll be the front end and you be yourself.

Whats wrong with the people?They are disagreeing with you thats whats wrong with you,God forbid!

Your so worried about them being "brainwashed by the evil republicans" yet when they disagree with your views,theres something wrong with them and are justified to be insulted.

see, heres the thing
Classic conservatism (nixon, raegan): Opinion
Neo-Conservatism (post-raegan republicans): mental disease.

You are a sad person. Let's play horse. I'll be the front end and you be yourself.
Ah, so terrorists killing innocents now makes it ok for us to kill innocents. And we call ourselves "civilized"?

You are a sad person. Let's play horse. I'll be the front end and you be yourself.

Yeah, way to end the personal attacks. "Ass."

Yeah, way to end the personal attacks. "Ass."
sad, sad little person. :rolleyes:

sad, sad little person. :rolleyes:
Stfu. Both of you. Personal attacks are counter-productive.

The important parts of 1984 are these: The country is in a constant state of war. Check. The people believe that the war is just and winnable, despite the conclusion reached with some logic. Check. Instead of calmly discussing both sides to reach a concensus, the people are bombarded with patriotic messages and images, and anyone who disagrees is a traitor.

1984 was nothing more than a book which presented something many already knew to thos who didn't, and I imagine was sort of helped along by statements of the Nazi hierarchy.

"Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

"There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

The application of this process albeit used by the nazis has been used by governments/nations for millenia, and won't change, heck, it was used by the allies in WW2, and use of this tactic hardly denotes a war being "bad".

Of course, sometimes it really is true...you are being attacked...but a lot of the problem seems to be a great amount of those in western culture have been too well protected for 6 decades to realise they are being attacked....

''We have to get back to the place we were, where terrorists are not the focus of our lives, but they're a nuisance." -John Kerry

This must sound real reassuring to as soldier in Iraq or Afghanistan dealing with terrorists on a daily basis..

''We have to get back to the place we were, where terrorists are not the focus of our lives, but they're a nuisance." -John Kerry

This must sound real reassuring to as soldier in Iraq or Afghanistan dealing with terrorists on a daily basis..
Get used to it. They are. Nothing more then a nuisance. How many people die in car crashes each year?

Get used to it. They are. Nothing more then a nuisance. How many people die in car crashes each year?

I absolutely encourage anyone who considers terrorism a nuisance, on par with car crashes, to vote for John Kerry, no question. If Kerry wants to treat terrorism as we did under Clinton, then let those who share his belief have their say. The other 98% will re-elect our president on schedule.

George W. Bush LIED about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, lied about Al-Qaida, and lies to the American public about how the War in Iraq is going. Why on EARTH would you vote for a president who does not have the intelligence or the integrity to prosecute the War On Terror? And when the HELL did John Kerry, a decorated Vietnam veteran, suddenly become a demon when compared to a rich oilman from Texas who DODGED service in that same conflict?!?! I know for a fact that Senator Kerry has the guts to lead the war on terror! Back on 9-11, when all the congressmen and women were fleeing the Capitol Building in an evacuation in Washington DC, someone just happened to have a video camera pointed at the great row of stairs leading down from Capitol Hill. As I watched the replay of this some time later and watched the sprinting politicians, I saw one man in suit coat and tie calmly strolling down the stairs. He even stopped to look up into the sky, as if DARING another terrorist-hijacked aircraft to appear. It took me a moment, but I realized that the man walking...WALKING! down the stairs was John Kerry. This is a man, I realized, who has been under fire before, whose life has been in danger before. At the time, he had no idea if a fourth plane was going to crash into the very spot on which he was standing or not, yet it did not seem to disturb him in the slightest. You and I would probably be on the verge of panic in such a situation. Hell, I was in Piqua, Ohio on 9-11, and I felt panicked by what I was wathcing on TV. But John Kerry was granite. We saw it again in his Thursday and Friday debates, respectively. At times when Bush seemed angry, confused, and combative, Kerry was calm, collected, and in control of the facts. You can't go on saying that Kerry's not worthy of the Presidency...the man's a brave leader. He proved that much in Vietnam, and again by standing up on the podium in front of millions of Americans and challenging George Bush. I wouldn't have the intestinal fortitude to do such a thing and remain as calm as Senator Kerry did!

I met Kerry at an unscheduled campaign stop in Troy, Ohio. He stopped, right in the heart of a bastion of Republican voters, right on the highway. He walked out of his bus and waded through the weeds and God-knows what else to come to the side of this large chain link fence we were standing behind. And he went down the entire length of this fence shaking all of our hands. It was more than a calculated political move. He at once disarmed the crowd, instilling a sense of trust and hope in the people who had waited in scorching hot weather to see the man. I myself was suffering from some hideous nausea and yet forced myself to go out and meet him. I needed to see the candidate face to face.

I tell you now, this man has the strength and leadership needed to be President. He's more credible than George W. Bush is. And he fought for his country before, and he'll do it again. Please....in the name of freedom, GIVE him that chance!

As a soldier in the US Army, I strongly disagree with your dissertation. You say there is a video of this? Where's the link? No link? Maybe your just posting false, pro Kerry propaganda.
Kerry has already stated he would cut and run and leave our soldiers out to pastuer.
He hates the military. So he got a purple heart for shooting an unarmed enemy soldier in the back. That doesn't make him a hero. Nor does Vietnam have anything to do with what we're going through today.
He voted against giving soldiers in Iraq bullet proof vests or armor for their humvees. You think I am going to forget that? You must be out of your minds.
When John Kerry votes to do something that would cost the lives of hundreds more American troops than are being lost now, you better believe I'm voting for the other guy.
He voted against our pay increase, most of us are just under the poverty level. Kerry thinks we make too much money. Tell that to our families.
Speaking of which, we know for a fact that Kerry voted to cut health benefits for service members and their families. And you expect us to vote for him?
If that's what you really think, then its obvious you've lost your fucking mind.

I for one, think that the president got stuck with a horrible four years to serve as the U.S. president. I also think that if Kerry had been president during those four years, we would be much worse off than we are right now. I just don't think that Kerry would make a very good president. Like they say: "A vote for Kerry, is a vote for the terrorists."
True to that.

At least Kerry fought in a war. Not like the little cock-sucking coward in office.

I thought that was Clinton!

I absolutely encourage anyone who considers terrorism a nuisance, on par with car crashes, to vote for John Kerry, no question. If Kerry wants to treat terrorism as we did under Clinton, then let those who share his belief have their say. The other 98% will re-elect our president on schedule.
Everyone with common sense knows that it was becuase Clinton ignored terrorist attacks on America during his administration that 911 happened in the first place.

I thought that was Clinton!
Serving only 4 months in the military does not a Commander in Chief make.

Yet he was still elected

George "Dubya" "War president" Bush was elected by the Supreme Court, a dealing in no way better than the rigged election after the Civil War. For those of you not borded enough to randomly study bad elections, there was one in which the Republicans (current Democrats) agreed to weaken Reconstrution policies against the South if the Democrats (current Republicans) agreed to give up some votes.

War in general is a bad thing. Check this out: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/war.php

People who see war for what it is and tell the lucky ones who do not should be comended and praised. People that say "Bring it on" to terrorists after they crashed planes into the New York Twin Towers should see a psychiatrist.

On the subject of Iraqi soldiers thinking they had WMDs:
Iraqi soldiers were subjected to massive amounts of propaganda. George W. Bush and the intelligence agencies were not. There were weapons inspectors in Iraq and no indications of WMDs were present but NOOOOOO, even a deranged suspicion is good enough to go and kill people (Operation Shock and Awe was a crime against humanity, just like virtually all the actions of Bomber Command in WW2) whilst not having an exit strategy. Leaving Afghanistan in the hands of the warlords is yet another horrible error.

Responding to the "if Bush is stupid, you are stupider because you can't capitalize a proper noun while the Prestident can":
You misspelled "president", which does not necessarily need to be capitalized. We can count that argument as null and void using the "never listen to someone who slings mud at others for making the same mistake he did" postulate.

Questions? Rationality and common sense will defeat them.

Serving only 4 months in the military does not a Commander in Chief make.

Nope it doesn't. He served 4 Months in Vietnam if what I'm reading right! Four months out of a year. that is 1/4 of a rotation. Then he came back and denounced our soldiers and calling them all war criminals in the halls of congress.

Sorry, I'm not giving Kerry my vote.

Anybody seen the cover of the New Yorker?

Everyone with common sense knows that it was becuase Clinton ignored terrorist attacks on America during his administration that 911 happened in the first place.

Hmm, funny, since in was Clinton's administration that handed the Bush people a comprehensive plan for fighting terrorism that included a homeland security department. Bush chose to ignore it. Bush advisers were quoted as saying that Clinton was unneccessarily obsessed with terrorism.

Also, every action Clinton tried to make was stonewalled by the Republican Congress, so much so that they criticized the missile attacks Clinton made on Iraq and elsewhere.

Common sense tells us that the Republican party is responsible.

like i said: the brainwashed

I fail to understand why those in the military are "brainwashed" but those who are the "non-conformists" (for all you "South Park" fans, think of those episodes) are the ones who are enlightened.

Hmm, funny, since in was Clinton's administration that handed the Bush people a comprehensive plan for fighting terrorism that included a homeland security department. Bush chose to ignore it. Bush advisers were quoted as saying that Clinton was unneccessarily obsessed with terrorism.

Also, every action Clinton tried to make was stonewalled by the Republican Congress, so much so that they criticized the missile attacks Clinton made on Iraq and elsewhere.

Common sense tells us that the Republican party is responsible.
Bill Clinton was bombing nurseries, baby formula plants, foriegn embassies, senior citizen homes, elementary schools, churches, mosques.
Bill Clinton was a power hungry tyrant who bombed civilians on purpose.
Point of fact: Sudan, Serbia.
And his General in Serbia was a madman who tried to start World War III by starting an unprovoked war with the Russians.

''We have to get back to the place we were, where terrorists are not the focus of our lives, but they're a nuisance." -John Kerry

This must sound real reassuring to as soldier in Iraq or Afghanistan dealing with terrorists on a daily basis..
Kerry is a scumbag, ready to turn over our nation to the UN and run screaming like a woman from terrorists.

I fail to understand why those in the military are "brainwashed" but those who are the "non-conformists" (for all you "South Park" fans, think of those episodes) are the ones who are enlightened.
So very true, lol but everyone does seem to think their point of view is so much more divinely right and their logic so much more solid then the opposing sides. Such is life

Then he came back and denounced our soldiers and calling them all war criminals in the halls of congress.
How is it denouncing our soldiers to tell the truth? If they really were raping, murdering, and pillaging, what's wrong with calling them on it?
That's hypothetical, though. Kerry didn't blame the soldiers- he blamed the condition. When you put someone, anyone, in a situation as barbaric as war, they should be expected to act like a barbarian. We needed to end the Vietnam war, one way or another, to restore our morality.
I fail to understand why those in the military are "brainwashed"...
Humiliation, degradation, sleep deprivation, and phyical pain are standard tactics used to break recruits to two organizations: Cults, and the US military.
Bill Clinton was bombing nurseries, baby formula plants, foriegn embassies, senior citizen homes, elementary schools, churches, mosques.
Bill Clinton was a power hungry tyrant who bombed civilians on purpose.
Point of fact: Sudan, Serbia.
Woah, so what does that make Bush (who's killed 11,000 civilians so far)?
And his General in Serbia was a madman who tried to start World War III by starting an unprovoked war with the Russians.
No, nonono, no. no. Wrong. Russia was slightly bothered that we were getting involved in the Balkans, which was traditionally their protectorate, but that could never have escalated into a war.
Kerry is a scumbag, ready to turn over our nation to the UN and run screaming like a woman from terrorists.
That is totally baseless. Argue with facts. If you make blanket statements like this, the only result is that you'll look like a moron.

A nuisance? You call people making our skyscrapers collapse and trying to create bioweapons a mere nuisance? You got to be on something potent to think that. We can't let up on these guys.

The war in Iraq is just what should have been finished at the end of the first Gulf War.

I believe that Kerry and Bush are the worst candidates at this time. They both will totally divide the country and if that happens, bye bye. Although, Bush realizes what the real problems are. We need someone to unite the country, a guy who knows how to be bipartisan. This guy (http://www.dot.gov/affairs/mineta.htm) is a perfect example.

I believe this site explains my opinion well.
http://www.factcheck.org/archive.aspx.html

A nuisance? You call people making our skyscrapers collapse and trying to create bioweapons a mere nuisance?
As a % of our population, yes. 9/11 was like a mosquito pricking a giant.

The war in Iraq is just what should have been finished at the end of the first Gulf War.
George Bush the First said explicitly why he did not 'finish the job' and invade Iraq. He said, in his book, that an invasion would not have a clear exit strategy, and we might still be occupying the place. Apparently Bush II did not read his father's book.

I believe that Kerry and Bush are the worst candidates at this time. They both will totally divide the country and if that happens, bye bye.
What makes you say that?

That is totally baseless. Argue with facts. If you make blanket statements like this, the only result is that you'll look like a moron.
This is only baseless in your opinion, it is based in reality by everything I have seen or read abouot the man. You saying it is baseless only makes you sound like a moron. It is you opinion that it is baseless.

Tell me, what's one good criticism of Kerry that hasn't come from the lips of the Bush administration (who definitely were found to have lied specifically about the aluminum tubing, the Niger Uranium, and the Atta in Prague story,) or the mouths of the fully discredited SBVT crowd?

What is the SBVT, if you don't mind. I'm trying to get all the information I can.

As a % of our population, yes. 9/11 was like a mosquito pricking a giant.


George Bush the First said explicitly why he did not 'finish the job' and invade Iraq. He said, in his book, that an invasion would not have a clear exit strategy, and we might still be occupying the place. Apparently Bush II did not read his father's book.


What makes you say that?
Man, what are you smoking?

As a soldier in the United States Army, I think that both you and John Kerrys have no heart, and John Kerry is a horrible man, a horrible senator, and a horrible candidate. Congratualtions on finding you idealogical mate, a coward.


So, tell me how a "Coward" went to Veitnam, (he volunteered, not drafted)
Won A Silver Star, A Bronze Star, and THREE Purple Hearts.

He came out of a conflict more highly decorated than you'll ever be, and served his country when it needed him.

Much more than Bush ever did.

Bush was unable to pass a drug test, and was grounded in the National Guard.

He was a "Chickenhawk".

Whos the coward?

Bill Clinton was bombing nurseries, baby formula plants, foriegn embassies, senior citizen homes, elementary schools, churches, mosques.
Bill Clinton was a power hungry tyrant who bombed civilians on purpose.
Point of fact: Sudan, Serbia.
And his General in Serbia was a madman who tried to start World War III by starting an unprovoked war with the Russians.

Clinton bombed civilians on purpose? Funny that the Republican run Congress wasted all that money investigating a blowjob when they could have impeached him for war crimes. Maybe the intelligence was in error?

How come when Clinton acts on flawed intelligence, Clinton is to blame. When Bush acts on flawed intelligence (some would claim it was intentionally flawed,) it's always someone else's fault?

Talk about double standards! Sir, I respectfully ask what your source for these Clinton stories are? If you can show me conclusively that Clinton committed these attrocities, then I will lobby for him to get the chair. The problem is, that these are simply lies, and unsupportable lies at that.

What is the SBVT, if you don't mind. I'm trying to get all the information I can.


The SBVT is The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

They are a political asassination machine.
They are a group- of Veterans, probably hired and funded by the Bush team.
They are responsible for many of the nasty and untrue ads you may have seen about John Kerry.

Many non partisan groups have looked into the SBVT's claims, and every single accusation thaey have made has been discredited, as they lies that they are.

Recently, it was discovered that one of the Members of the SBVT was on the payroll of Bush's campaign manager.

If you want to know more about them, look at these two sites.
Both of them are non-partisan groups that debunk media spin.

www.factcheck.org.
www.spinsanity.org

As a soldier in the United States Army, I think that both you and John Kerrys have no heart, and John Kerry is a horrible man, a horrible senator, and a horrible candidate. Congratualtions on finding you idealogical mate, a coward.
How can you call anyone who fought in the Vietnam Conflict a coward? You are a disgrace to your uniform.

What the HELL is wrong with These People?

Cool it, man, you have to realize it's your opinion that George Bush does not deserve to be President. Further, it's an opinion, meaning that there is no right or wrong; and also, the fact that some people disagree with you does not mean that they have something severely wrong with them.

Have a little more respect for other people's opinions.


So, tell me how a "Coward" went to Veitnam, (he volunteered, not drafted)
Won A Silver Star, A Bronze Star, and THREE Purple Hearts.


"Sometimes a brain can...come in quite handy...but it's not going to help you, because I WON THREE PURPLE HEARTS! This land'll surely vote for me..."

Sorry, couldn't help it :P

How can you call anyone who fought in the Vietnam Conflict a coward? You are a disgrace to your uniform.


If you want to be technical there can be cowards in a lot of places.

Seriously being in Vietnam does not qualify or disqualify him from any personality flaws

Not saying that he is or isent

Just saying that the fact that he wa s in Vietnam does not automatically qualify him as not a coward

How is it denouncing our soldiers to tell the truth? If they really were raping, murdering, and pillaging, what's wrong with calling them on it?

How is it the truth when not all soldiers committed warcrimes? Yes there were some. No denying it. However, not every soldier committed them. Besides, Kerry himself professed himself as a warcriminal. However, not ALL of our soldiers committed warcrimes. Kerry later took that back though.

How is it the truth when not all soldiers committed warcrimes? Yes there were some. No denying it. However, not every soldier committed them. Besides, Kerry himself professed himself as a warcriminal. However, not ALL of our soldiers committed warcrimes. Kerry later took that back though.

One problem. Kerry never said all soldiers committed war crimes. If he did, and I missed it, I would like you to provide a transcript. Make sure the transcript does not include the dreaded "..." punctuation, as this indicates an edit.

No, on that day testifying before Congress, Kerry specifically said that he was not speaking for himself, and that his words represented the large group on men he was in Washington with.

As I love new information, please prove me wrong. You will be doing a great service to all the other posters here, since proof of Kerry accusing all soldiers has not once surfaced. It hasn't even been attempted. It has merely been passed along as fact, without any supporting arguments. This makes me, to this point, 100% certain that Kerry never accused all soldiers.

The SBVT is The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

They are a political asassination machine.
They are a group- of Veterans, probably hired and funded by the Bush team.
They are responsible for many of the nasty and untrue ads you may have seen about John Kerry.

Many non partisan groups have looked into the SBVT's claims, and every single accusation thaey have made has been discredited, as they lies that they are.

Recently, it was discovered that one of the Members of the SBVT was on the payroll of Bush's campaign manager.

If you want to know more about them, look at these two sites.
Both of them are non-partisan groups that debunk media spin.

www.factcheck.org.
www.spinsanity.org

Thanks, I didn't know the acronym. As of right now, I'm a Bush supporter, but I think the swift boats are dirty, especially if they're lying. I am not surprised though, that they are on the payroll. Thanks again, Backwoods

not true, he was covering his ass & setting up a political career at the expense of "fellow" soldiers. I call that a true coward.

just going home & shutting up would have just been a normal soldier

So Viet Nam vets who saw, or were a part of, atorcities and kept their mouths shut are just regular guys, but any one who came forward with what they knew about it is a coward? I bet you're voting for Bush, aren't you? You obviously haven't the good sense to vote against him.

Well as a Marine recruit (not yet through bootcamp) I show my support for Kerry.

I forgot what the comment was to the Ranger, but something about his intelligence and certain test scores. Well just so the same type of comment isn't made to me, I scored a 95 on my ASVAB.

Before I end this next statement, I want to say that at least on the surface, I have a great deal of respect for anyone in any branch of the service. (By on the surface, I mean, some people are just jackasses no matter what. But with knowing nothing, I assume they deserve respect for at least being a little brave.) Now, as a Marine. I think the air force national guard is for pussies. (Keep in mind the previous statements :-Þ)

I hate when people say that Kerry threw his metals. He threw ribbons. There is a big difference. Though, everyone called them metals and that is where the confusion came from.

I also want to comment on anyone being picky about someone's grammar in here. Who cares. Some of these folks may not even know the english language all too well. So long as you understand what they were saying... let it be.

In response to someone comparing Clinton to Bush as far as dodging goes. Well Clinton was one hell of a good president. Put him up against GWB or Kerry and he would win.

Someone said that we are doing now what we should have done in the Golf War. Are you talking about calling it Operation Iraqi Freedom? (Couldn't help it... that's just a stupid name.) No, we never should have done what we have done. Saddam kept certain terrorists out of Iraq, and we had at least some leverage with him as he wasn't entirely insane, and not entirely anti-anyone who has anything to do with America. Now that Saddam is gone, and we can't be as ruthless as he was, we have to occupy Iraq for god knows how long just so the terrorist groups do not use the oil to their advantage. In many respects, this war is similar to Vietnam. But Vietnam did not have oil under their jungle... this made evacuation much more simple.

STOP indirectly saying Saddam attacked the US. I fully believe that Saddam had no intention to ever attack the US. Just review the current situation. We took first strike. Now we supply 130,000 troops, GB supplies 13,000 and between all of the other countries, another 7,000 troops occupy Iraq. IF Saddam had attacked the US, or any other nation in the UN for that matter, there would be much more global involvement. Furthermore, we have yet to see what will happen to Saddam after the global court hearings.

In my next argument, I have no solid evidence. This is just a feeling of mine. I don't think 9/11 would have happened had Gore been elected president by the Supreme Court.

Back to Kerry. I do not think less of Kerry at all for what he did. Someone else stated this. He enlisted, he wasn't drafted. He fought in a war that he thought was wrong, but he did it for his country. In so many ways I feel the same way. Grant it, I obviously have not been in Iraq (yet), I am against what we have done in Iraq. I have actively protested against it. I love my country. I will fight for my country, even when I think the people making the decisions are wrong. I feel like I can really relate to John F. Kerry.

Well that's about all I wanted to say. That and I fully respect that other people can have their own opinions as well, and mine aren't always necesarilly going to be right.

All those 200+ Swift Boat vets can't be wrong and I certainly don't believe that they're lying. As for whether or not John Kerry would make a good president . . . I follow politics and it definitely unnerves me that I still don't know where he stands - on much of anything - and most of all the War on Terror and the situation in Iraq. All I know is that he is an eloquent speaker and can debate with the best of 'em. Unfortunately, much like Bill Clinton, Kerry's positions seem to sway with the polls. And, as for the accusations I saw on this thread that George Bush lied about WMDs . . . John Kerry did indeed have the same intelligence that the President had, and came to the same conclusions the President did. I heard it from his own lips - several times. How can I claim that John Kerry had access to the same the intelligence on Iraq that our President did? Simple. He is on the Intelligence Committee. But, I suppose missing most of the Senate Intelligence Committee meetings and 76% of public hearings (he missed 38 of 49 public hearings in 8 years) probably leaves you out of the loop on some things, eh?

All those 200+ Swift Boat vets can't be wrong and I certainly don't believe that they're lying. As for whether or not John Kerry would make a good president . . . I follow politics and it definitely unnerves me that I still don't know where he stands - on much of anything - and most of all the War on Terror and the situation in Iraq. All I know is that he is an eloquent speaker and can debate with the best of 'em. Unfortunately, much like Bill Clinton, Kerry's positions seem to sway with the polls. And, as for the accusations I saw on this thread that George Bush lied about WMDs . . . John Kerry did indeed have the same intelligence that the President had, and came to the same conclusions the President did. I heard it from his own lips - several times. How can I claim that John Kerry had access to the same the intelligence on Iraq that our President did? Simple. He is on the Intelligence Committee. But, I suppose missing most of the Senate Intelligence Committee meetings and 76% of public hearings (he missed 38 of 49 public hearings in 8 years) probably leaves you out of the loop on some things, eh?

Well, how come 200+ swift boat veterans can't be wrong, but the several thousand in the Vietnam Vets Against the war can? How come the swift boat veterans can't be wrong, but the Navy itself, who conducted an investigation that validated Kerry's medals can be wrong? Are you unwilling to concede that a group of 200+ could possibly have a political ax to grind? How come none of the documents back up the swift boat vets? You indulging in selective reasoning here, my friend.

Well as a Marine recruit (not yet through bootcamp) I show my support for Kerry.

I forgot what the comment was to the Ranger, but something about his intelligence and certain test scores. Well just so the same type of comment isn't made to me, I scored a 95 on my ASVAB.

.

Wow, they let you use the internet in bootcamp now? Things have changed.

No, sorry for the confusion. Not yet STARTED bootcamp. My appologies. I go in February. Though not yet through holds true still... it is misleading.

This is only baseless in your opinion, it is based in reality by everything I have seen or read abouot the man. You saying it is baseless only makes you sound like a moron. It is you opinion that it is baseless.
It is baseless if you do not provide facts, data, evidence. And if you do, then I have the opportunity to show the flaws in your arguments.

All those 200+ Swift Boat vets can't be wrong and I certainly don't believe that they're lying.
http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx@DocID=244.html
http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx@docID=231.html
These pretty much shoot down SBVT.

As for whether or not John Kerry would make a good president . . . I follow politics and it definitely unnerves me that I still don't know where he stands - on much of anything - and most of all the War on Terror and the situation in Iraq.
http://www.johnkerry.com
clearly laid out in layman's terms

John Kerry did indeed have the same intelligence that the President had, and came to the same conclusions the President did.
Kerry voted to give the president the authority to go to war, because without threat of attack, negotiation would have been worthless. Had he been president at the time, Kerry (as he's said many times, including at the debates) would have waited until we had incontrovertible evidence, or attacked differently. Kerry would not have botched the war like Bush has.