NationStates Jolt Archive

I decided a long time ago that every Lib wasn't out to incinerate my guns and put me in a commune with a set of Ho Chi Minh sandals.

So why is it so hard for you to admit that every Conservative isn't out to rob you blind, re-open Auschwitz, destroy the world, and give birth to the Antichrist?

There's a certain degree of levity that comes with maturity. It's the realization that the world is never black and white. It's always shades of grey. People are rarely the monsters their enemies make them out to be.

I have convictions, and you have convictions. They often differ fundamentally. But so long as you have the ability to stand in someone's shoes and say "You know, I sort of understand where he's coming from and why he's saying that. I don't agree, but I can understand his position.", you will never feel the kind of terrible, burning rage that I hear spewing from the mouths of so many people this election year.

Take it from this former firebrand: don't be a caricature of yourself. Don't be the tire or the road. Be the air, and see both for what they are.

Thanks.

I decided a long time ago that every Lib wasn't out to incinerate my guns and put me in a commune with a set of Ho Chi Minh sandals.
You realize that you logically contradict yourself with the following statement, right?



So why is it so hard for you to admit that every Conservative isn't out to rob you blind, re-open Auschwitz, destroy the world, and give birth to the Antichrist?

That said, I do agree with the sentiments you made in your post, and more specifically with the following line.
It's the realization that the world is never black and white. It's always shades of grey. People are rarely the monsters their enemies make them out to be.

I decided a long time ago that every Lib wasn't out to incinerate my guns and put me in a commune with a set of Ho Chi Minh sandals.

So why is it so hard for you to admit that every Conservative isn't out to rob you blind, re-open Auschwitz, destroy the world, and give birth to the Antichrist?

You obviously haven't left your steroetypes and preconceptions by the wayside, as you assume that we all think you are evil. Your post is completely hipocritical. All you do with it is to try to assert your own moral superiority. I don't respond well to condescending remarks. Think before you type.

You obviously haven't left your steroetypes and preconceptions by the wayside, as you assume that we all think you are evil. Your post is completely hipocritical. All you do with it is to try to assert your own moral superiority. I don't respond well to condescending remarks. Think before you type.

I apologize. I realize you all don't think we are evil.

However, I decided to phrase the statement this way because of some of the ridiculous things I have seen written in this very forum about the nature, mental status, and moral state of Conservatives.

There are quite a few (I use that term very honestly) people here who seem to honestly hate Conservatives and would not only gladly take away their right to speak and debate their opinion, but also have them wiped from the face of the country and exterminated if they had their way.

I have not seen very many who (god forbid) simply disagreed with them, but respected their right to differ.

Hey conservatives can't claim the antichrist! He's mine!

I decided a long time ago that every Lib wasn't out to incinerate my guns and put me in a commune with a set of Ho Chi Minh sandals.

So why is it so hard for you to admit that every Conservative isn't out to rob you blind, re-open Auschwitz, destroy the world, and give birth to the Antichrist?

There's a certain degree of levity that comes with maturity. It's the realization that the world is never black and white. It's always shades of grey. People are rarely the monsters their enemies make them out to be.

I have convictions, and you have convictions. They often differ fundamentally. But so long as you have the ability to stand in someone's shoes and say "You know, I sort of understand where he's coming from and why he's saying that. I don't agree, but I can understand his position.", you will never feel the kind of terrible, burning rage that I hear spewing from the mouths of so many people this election year.

Take it from this former firebrand: don't be a caricature of yourself. Don't be the tire or the road. Be the air, and see both for what they are.

Thanks.

Well good, while I never dreamed of doing that to you, your welcome.
I know not ever Conserv is bad but the ones ruling your party are bad.
REmember its Conservs who attack Kerry for his convictions says he has none and so forth.
No one attacks Bush for his convictions, only his actions.
I've understood where others came from before even when they were conservatives and it sounded like they spoke nonsense.

Don't generalize us.

I decided a long time ago that every Lib wasn't out to incinerate my guns and put me in a commune with a set of Ho Chi Minh sandals.

So why is it so hard for you to admit that every Conservative isn't out to rob you blind, re-open Auschwitz, destroy the world, and give birth to the Antichrist?

There's a certain degree of levity that comes with maturity. It's the realization that the world is never black and white. It's always shades of grey. People are rarely the monsters their enemies make them out to be.

I have convictions, and you have convictions. They often differ fundamentally. But so long as you have the ability to stand in someone's shoes and say "You know, I sort of understand where he's coming from and why he's saying that. I don't agree, but I can understand his position.", you will never feel the kind of terrible, burning rage that I hear spewing from the mouths of so many people this election year.

Take it from this former firebrand: don't be a caricature of yourself. Don't be the tire or the road. Be the air, and see both for what they are.

Thanks.

Just like you realize that the generalizations and caricatures about liberals aren't necessarily true, you should also realize that not all liberals characterize conservatives in such a negative way. The benefit of the doubt runs both ways. I have no problem with anyone who has a reasonable difference of opinion and respects the opinions of others.

Now, that being said, I have very strong reservations, but not an automatic dislike, about anyone who supports George W. Bush for President, be they conservative, liberal, communist or fascist. I don't see this as a simple difference of opinion, I see this as a dangerous denial of reality that endangers our Democracy itself. I simply can not reconcile wanting another 4 years of his administration with knowing what has transpired during his Presidency.

I also have problems with specific super-conservatives who post pictures of dead children to support an anti-Kerry agenda that has simply proven to be entirely false (you know who you are, and your NS name starts with an "E".)

You are new and you seem reasonable, Grand Triad, so I am pre-emptively disposed to respect you.

:D

But on a more serious note, it's just the extremists on BOTH sides that are keeping us so divided. Certainly most liberals don't have such an extreme view of conservatives, just how most conservatives don't think all liberals are pinko-commie scum, but the most vocal on each side are those who do hold these beliefs.

I decided a long time ago that every Lib wasn't out to incinerate my guns and put me in a commune with a set of Ho Chi Minh sandals.

So why is it so hard for you to admit that every Conservative isn't out to rob you blind, re-open Auschwitz, destroy the world, and give birth to the Antichrist?

There's a certain degree of levity that comes with maturity. It's the realization that the world is never black and white. It's always shades of grey. People are rarely the monsters their enemies make them out to be.

I have convictions, and you have convictions. They often differ fundamentally. But so long as you have the ability to stand in someone's shoes and say "You know, I sort of understand where he's coming from and why he's saying that. I don't agree, but I can understand his position.", you will never feel the kind of terrible, burning rage that I hear spewing from the mouths of so many people this election year.

Take it from this former firebrand: don't be a caricature of yourself. Don't be the tire or the road. Be the air, and see both for what they are.

Thanks.So although you're liberal with how you see liberals, you think that we're all the same in the way we think about conservatives?

-snip-
I'm Libertarian (not really left or right, I guess), and I agree - some conservatives are really respectable, like Sen. John McCain

I'm a Conservative, but I don't hate liberals. Besides, the world would be no fun without people to argue with. You guys are a good bunch.

Again, my response was based on the level and sheer maliciousness of some of the anti-Conservative vitriol I have been reading on this board, mostly directed at the President.

When you see someone who shares views similar to yours being shat upon (here), it makes one wary.

Really what I want to ask is, why is it so rare to see someone willing to go halfway on the George W. Bush thing?

It's exceeding rare to see, "Well, he's good at this, and this isn't so bad, but I fundamentally disagree with him on this and this. So I ain't voting for him."

9 times out of 10, it's "He's a f***ing dirtbag scum-bucket who deserves to be put in jail and beaten like the filthy Neo-Con dog that he is! So I'm gonna shout it until I'm heard!"

My point? Part of that maturity/levity bit I was talking about? The shades of grey thing? That's being able to notice the white in someone when you're tempted to paint them entirely black.

I don't care for Kerry much. But I'm certainly not going to begrudge the man his positive aspects.

But on a more serious note, it's just the extremists on BOTH sides that are keeping us so divided...
...the most vocal on each side are those who do hold these beliefs.
PRECISELY the problem. The crazy ones are the ones who go around spewing party-line nonsense everywhere they go, and doing it LOUDLY. I get so sick of hearing the candidates, and supporters of either one, repeating the same nonsense over and over again and bashing everyone else who doesn't agree.

Again, my response was based on the level and sheer maliciousness of some of the anti-Conservative vitriol I have been reading on this board, mostly directed at the President.
The same can be said of the steadfast Conservatives here, who have zero tolerance for anyone whose views are different then theirs.

If you had directed this "open letter" to ALL people of NS and altered some of the wording, it might have a broader appeal to explore those "grey areas that you referred to.

When you see someone who shares views similar to yours being shat upon (here), it makes one wary.
Welcome to the real world of differences. This is a two way street?

Really what I want to ask is, why is it so rare to see someone willing to go halfway on the George W. Bush thing?
Mostly because Bush keeps declaring that it is my way or the highway, and unfortunately that does not equate to nation building, nor does it do much for building alliances with others on the world stage.

Nobody can say, "Well, he's good at this, and this isn't so bad, but I fundamentally disagree with him on this and this. So I ain't voting for him."
Many people are saying exactly that, although I believe that more people are starting to realize that they fundamentally disagree on MOST of his ideology.

It's always "He's a f***ing dirtbag scum-bucket who deserves to be put in jail and beaten like the filthy Neo-Con dog that he is! So I'm building a voodoo doll!"
Well then you certainly are not paying attention to some of the more over zealous right wingers here, who also have a toxic propensity for profanity and hatred.

My point? Part of that maturity/levity bit I was talking about? The shades of grey thing? That's being able to notice the white in someone when you're tempted to paint them entirely black.
Bring these people forward and together they can forge a whole new world based on patience and tolerance, and perhaps achieve some peace. BTW good luck.

I don't care for Kerry much. But I'm certainly not going to begrudge the man his positive aspects.
I do see Kerry as more of a nation builder than the current leader of the US.

Again, my response was based on the level and sheer maliciousness of some of the anti-Conservative vitriol I have been reading on this board, mostly directed at the President.


Anti-conservative vitriol can't be directed at the president. He isn't a conservative. Remember, Pat Buchannan thinks that Bush has gone too far, and he wants to make Christianity a state religion and ban immigration.

Bush is a neo-con.
Conservative philosophy is in favor of states rights because it argues that distant government is more likely to step all over personal rights, but Bush tries to use the Federal government's power to supress states rights when the states try to protect personal rights ( eg. medical marijuana laws and legalizing gay marriage).

Conservative philosophy is against the government getting involved with private business and against wasting public money, but Bush's administration has been fighting tooth and nail to have private businesses handle public services for up to a hundred times the cost and with inferior service (if you know any military people ask them about the KBR food in Iraq or check out how badly his vaunted charter schools are doing).

Conservatives want small government that doesn't cost much money, but Bush has created two new bureacracies since taking office and racked up record debts.

I'm not certain what conservatism says about nuclear proliferation but everyone in the last 50 years has been against it. Bush is trying to have new nuclear bombs developed. :gundge:

When I want to bash conservatives I bash Michael Peroutka (http://www.peroutka2004.com). He'd be a real conservative if he didn't want to have Christianity shoved down our throats. :headbang:

Again, my response was based on the level and sheer maliciousness of some of the anti-Conservative vitriol I have been reading on this board, mostly directed at the President.

When you see someone who shares views similar to yours being shat upon (here), it makes one wary.

Really what I want to ask is, why is it so rare to see someone willing to go halfway on the George W. Bush thing?

It's exceeding rare to see, "Well, he's good at this, and this isn't so bad, but I fundamentally disagree with him on this and this. So I ain't voting for him."

9 times out of 10, it's "He's a f***ing dirtbag scum-bucket who deserves to be put in jail and beaten like the filthy Neo-Con dog that he is! So I'm gonna shout it until I'm heard!"

My point? Part of that maturity/levity bit I was talking about? The shades of grey thing? That's being able to notice the white in someone when you're tempted to paint them entirely black.

I don't care for Kerry much. But I'm certainly not going to begrudge the man his positive aspects.
It's because Bush isn't a conservative. I have great respect for conservatives, even if I don't always agree with them. But Bush and the people he's surrounded himself with aren't conservative, no matter what tag they attempt to try to place around their necks. They're radicals, and worse, incompetent, and I'm not exaggerating when I say they're likely to get a lot more of us killed if we put them back in office. So when you see my diatribes against Bush, please don't take it as a slam against true conservatives or conservatism in general--it's specifically a slam against Bush and his administration.

Let me add one more thing--I find it hard to give Bush credit for doing anything good because unless I've missed something, he's made bad decisions on pretty much every law he's signed and every foreign policy decision he's made. When he's done something I've agreed with, it's been a retreat from a previously held position (like the 9/11 commission) and he's only done it 1) because he had to, thanks to public pressure and 2) he's stonewalled their progress whenever possible.

Really what I want to ask is, why is it so rare to see someone willing to go halfway on the George W. Bush thing?

It's exceeding rare to see, "Well, he's good at this, and this isn't so bad, but I fundamentally disagree with him on this and this. So I ain't voting for him."

9 times out of 10, it's "He's a f***ing dirtbag scum-bucket who deserves to be put in jail and beaten like the filthy Neo-Con dog that he is! So I'm gonna shout it until I'm heard!"

My point? Part of that maturity/levity bit I was talking about? The shades of grey thing? That's being able to notice the white in someone when you're tempted to paint them entirely black.

I don't care for Kerry much. But I'm certainly not going to begrudge the man his positive aspects.

Well generally I'm more inclined to be more nuanced with my rhetoric...

But I for one don't see much in Bush's character or administration that's positive. I'm obviously not going to applaud him for things I don't think deserve to be praised.

I think this administration has, in general, done an awful job, and furthermore, I was never terribly impressed with Bush or his cabinet in the first place, before they were even installed in office.

For me, it's just been 4 years of dealing with a bunch of people that I generally and genuinely dislike. I'm not going to say any "he's the anti-christ" bullshit. I think he's a bad president, and sort of an asshole- but again, this is far from unique in a politician, and certainly a bipartisan trait.

So basically, I frankly don't see how I CAN "go halfway" on the Bush thing. Not because he's super-terrible, but rather because I don't seem to see eye-to-eye with him on much of anything. That doesn't necessarily make him BAD, it makes him qualitatively DIFFERENT from the kind of President I want.

Despite all this, that doesn't mean I'm going to engage in some of the more asinine rhetoric that some members of the far-left engage in. Nor do I generally try to malign all conservatives. I recognize that there are plenty of conservatives who are decent folks who strongly believe in their principles, and are generally even open-minded to honest debate. I try to distinguish between "average conservatives", even ones who hold opinions I find generally disturbing, and the prominent conservatives in the media, whom I dub, "psycho-servitives". (Robert Reich uses the term "radcons- radical conservatives"- http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/04/06/int04030.html.)

It is THEIR arguments I rail against, under the assumption that it will "trickle down" (thanks, Reagan) to the regular people it happens to apply to. If someone supports Sean Hannity or Ann Coulter's ideas, then my criticisms of them apply to them, too. If they don't, my criticisms don't.

I'm Libertarian (not really left or right, I guess)
Libertarian is right-wing liberal.

Anti-conservative vitriol can't be directed at the president. He isn't a conservative.
Yeah, Bush is definitely a neocon reactionary.

Libertarian is right-wing liberal.

...a what?

You seem stuck in the trap of seeing things as "liberal/conservative"...things aren't that simple.