NationStates Jolt Archive

We're fucking about in the Middle East and more often than not, we're doing little more than just fucking it up. What does victory look like, for this part of the world? Is it really just the US flag flying over Mecca? And if it is, why are we delaying that? Are we just holding on, hoping that someone will think of something? And if we are, why aren't we disturbed that the best minds of our generation haven't thought of anything yet?

Are we doomed to a perpetual stalemate where Islamic states flip back and forth between tyranical dictators and fledgling democracies which hate Israel and the West, or will this eventually end and in a hundred years, History students will be writing "In 5,000 words or less, describe the Middle East problem and what the solution was, and why did it cause so much trouble to the people of the late 20th/ early 21st century?

Nothing stays the same forever, geopolitical hotspots invariably flare up and then disappear again. What is the endgame scenario?

Victory looks like this:

http://www.simplifiedsigns.org/victory.jpg

Now opening the floor to anyone with a two-bit opinion or a glib response

Edit: Tuesday beat me to that.

Bump


Come on people, I know one of you is up to debating this.

It will end when most people have television, internet, and can get fast food or starbuck's coffee in every last Islamic state.

Capitalism kicks ass :D

Capitalism does NOT kick ass.

Anyways... a beginning to solve this problem would be, the US sticking within it's own borders for a change and not messing up countries all over the globe. This is one of the major problems the Jihad fighters have, so perhaps not attacking yet another Muslim country in this "War on Terror" might help a bit.

Victory looks like this
Or it could look like Victory Gundam
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/v/lm312v06.jpg

Capitalism does NOT kick ass.

Uh oh look who came to sap the fun out of every living thing

O no, gigatron is gonna ravage tokyo! :D:D

And capitalism DOES kick ass.

Uh oh look who came to sap the fun out of every living thing

O no, gigatron is gonna ravage tokyo! :D:D
If anyone comes to sap the fun and life out of every living thing, then it's corporate pigs who only care for profit.

If anyone comes to sap the fun and life out of every living thing, then it's corporate pigs who only care for profit.

Ya, cuz those corporate pigs at Microsoft never made anything other people enjoy, they make their profit completely at our expense and we get nothing. O wait...

Ya, cuz those corporate pigs at Microsoft never made anything other people enjoy, they make their profit completely at our expense and we get nothing. O wait...
Not just Microsoft, but yeah, this is a good example to begin with.

*bangs Gig and Sir Peter's heads together*

On topic.

Capitalism does NOT kick ass.

Anyways... a beginning to solve this problem would be, the US sticking within it's own borders for a change and not messing up countries all over the globe. This is one of the major problems the Jihad fighters have, so perhaps not attacking yet another Muslim country in this "War on Terror" might help a bit.
So, the US sticks to its borders while Islamic extremists do not stick to theirs and we wait for them to calm down? What happens if they don't, and they start to present a real threat, not just to Israel but to America, Europe and Russia? Is it at that point when we start looking for solutions again?

Not just Microsoft, but yeah, this is a good example to begin with.

Being sarcastic you know :rolleyes:. In fact, Microsoft makes profits cuz we enjoy thier products. Like Windows, and Xbox. I love my Xbox. Microsoft earned every cent I gave them for that. So :p

O, Spoffin. I already gave my solution. Western culture will penetrate all the Islamic states eventually. Islamic moderates will win over, and that will ultimately lead to the end of all this.

Being sarcastic you know :rolleyes:. In fact, Microsoft makes profits cuz we enjoy thier products. Like Windows, and Xbox. I love my Xbox. Microsoft earned every cent I gave them for that. So :p
On topic, please

On topic, please

Check above. Plus, I couldn't let gig have the last word :D

It will end when most people have television, internet, and can get fast food or starbuck's coffee in every last Islamic state.

Capitalism kicks ass :D
In essence, once America colonises the world?

O, Spoffin. I already gave my solution. Western culture will penetrate all the Islamic states eventually. Islamic moderates will win over, and that will ultimately lead to the end of all this.
Have you noticed though, that recently, it hasn't been the moderates winning out, so much as the extremists who are forcing the hand of the west to dictate Middle Eastern policy?

Have you noticed though, that recently, it hasn't been the moderates winning out, so much as the extremists who are forcing the hand of the west to dictate Middle Eastern policy?

Only a matter of time till western culture takes root though. You mentioned that as US colonization of the world. To that I respond: and the problem is?

Edit: Tuesday beat me to that.

Well, someone had to... ;)

Have you noticed though, that recently, it hasn't been the moderates winning out, so much as the extremists who are forcing the hand of the west to dictate Middle Eastern policy?
That's true, and that's a major issue to deal with. The extremists have to be marginalized for there to be any real progress toward stability. The problem right now is that because of the west's policy over the last hundred years or so, the radical elements are more appealing than the moderates are. We practically make their case for them most of the time, by supporting dictators who suppress the common people. Hussein in the 80s, Mubarak in Egypt and the Saudi royal family, the Shah of Iran in the 70s. You'd think we'd have learned our lesson from Batista in Cuba--the "he may be a bastard but he's our bastard" foreign policy attitude is a stupid one at best.

On another note, Spoffin, are the two of us the only regulars over 10K posts now?

Or it could look like Victory Gundam

No, victory has better shoes.

On another note, Spoffin, are the two of us the only regulars over 10K posts now?

You two may just be. I'm impressed. My post count hasn't crossed 3k yet, and I've been here about as long as you both. I wonder if there's still a way to check who has the most posts on the NS forums?

No, victory has better shoes.

What kind of shoes would victory have?

What kind of shoes would victory have?Nikes, right? After all, Nike was the goddess of victory, wasn't she? :D

Nikes, right? After all, Nike was the goddess of victory, wasn't she? :D

I was thinking saconys. They're so comfy they must be divine and my feet thank me when I wear them. :D

What kind of shoes would victory have?

I actually don't have an opinion on that. I just think Mecha is irredeemably crap in terms of footwear.

Uh oh look who came to sap the fun out of every living thing

O no, gigatron is gonna ravage tokyo! :D:D

And capitalism DOES kick ass.

It must be sad to be as cynical and bitter at such an early age as he appears to be, yes? :)

Only a matter of time till western culture takes root though. You mentioned that as US colonization of the world. To that I respond: and the problem is?
And who are you to judge that these people need "western" culture? Do they want it? Are they unhappy with their own culture? Is there some law that says "X is worse than western culture, thus western culture must be spread all over the globe"? I do not like this arrogant approach and I do not like the end result of it. Namely, the loss of the diversity of human culture on the globe and instead we get a homogenous mass of capitalist, consumerist societies. I am strictly against this and I am not a fan of globalization either, because it is essentially the colonization of global markets for American corporations.

Only a matter of time till western culture takes root though. You mentioned that as US colonization of the world. To that I respond: and the problem is?

That's probably one of the most arrogant statements I've ever heard. America sucks, quite simply, because you talk about bringing "democracy" (when, in reality, your voter turnout rates are among the worst in the Western world), and "liberty" (can anyone say McCarthyism, or Patriot Act?), when these people don't want your hypocrisies.

The problem is that Western society is built upon the backs of the working class. You seek to fill their minds with propaganda so that they will keep holding the burden, but eventually, they won't be able to hold the whole massive, corrupt structure anymore. And when they give way, they may be crushed beneath it: but it'll be gone. Get a brain. Your foreign policy is:

A. Not working.
B. Pissing off most of the Western world, who are your oldest and best allies.
C. Giving fodder to those who would seek to create a Jihad against you.
D. Propping up "evil" dictators in some countries so you can topple them in others.
E. Making the children of the proletariat die for the wars of the bourgeoise.
F. Not only making Americans suffer to bring "liberty", but also causing innocent Iraqi civilians die in suicide bombs and "pinpoint" bombing raids by American aircraft. The death toll spirals more every day. And guess what? When their relatives die, all they're going to do is pick up an AK-47 or an RPG and go shoot up some Americans.

The only way for there to be "victory" in this situation is to get rid of Bush, install a president who won't go after so-called "threats" without non-fabricated proof, and get the rest of the West back on your side. Untill you stop with the hypocrisies at home, nobody will accept your hypocricies overseas. And install a draft, so if Americans are going to die for a forlorn cause, at least it's not just the poor.

There can be no victory.

And who are you to judge that these people need "western" culture? Do they want it? Are they unhappy with their own culture? Is there some law that says "X is worse than western culture, thus western culture must be spread all over the globe"? I do not like this arrogant approach and I do not like the end result of it. Namely, the loss of the diversity of human culture on the globe and instead we get a homogenous mass of capitalist, consumerist societies. I am strictly against this and I am not a fan of globalization either, because it is essentially the colonization of global markets for American corporations.

1. I'm better than YOU
2. Maybe so, maybe not, but its gonna reach them anyway
3. I'd say most of the women are
4. Ya, its called Brannigan's Law (if you havn't seen Futurama then its just My Law)
5. So your not a fan, you still havn't made me give a damn what you think.
6. GET A SENSE OF HUMOR!!!!
:D:D:D

Only a matter of time till western culture takes root though. You mentioned that as US colonization of the world. To that I respond: and the problem is?
I have no problem with people choosing americanism as their way of life, thats the nature of cultural evolution. I do have a problem when values are thrust upon people who don't want them.

And capitalism DOES kick ass.

Kicking ass is not always a favourable trait.

'Kicks slightly less ass but offers free healthcare' is a favourable trait.

I have no problem with people choosing americanism as their way of life, thats the nature of cultural evolution. I do have a problem when values are thrust upon people who don't want them.

People can buy or not buy products. Its only the fundamentalists that want everyone else to live the way they want to. I could care less if any person in the Islamic world listens to Britney Spears or patrons Starbucks or not (in those two cases not doing so would actually make me their friend :D but you get the idea.)

That's true, and that's a major issue to deal with. The extremists have to be marginalized for there to be any real progress toward stability. The problem right now is that because of the west's policy over the last hundred years or so, the radical elements are more appealing than the moderates are. We practically make their case for them most of the time, by supporting dictators who suppress the common people. Hussein in the 80s, Mubarak in Egypt and the Saudi royal family, the Shah of Iran in the 70s. You'd think we'd have learned our lesson from Batista in Cuba--the "he may be a bastard but he's our bastard" foreign policy attitude is a stupid one at best.Well, theres a point to be made as well that the democratically elected leaders of a country who's inhabitants aren't big fans of America may not be any more moderate than the dictators we install.

On another note, Spoffin, are the two of us the only regulars over 10K posts now?
There were never very many. Parratoga, NEE, Normack.... those are the only ones I can think of off hand.

People can buy or not buy products. Its only the fundamentalists that want everyone else to live the way they want to. I could care less if any person in the Islamic world listens to Britney Spears or patrons Starbucks or not (in those two cases not doing so would actually make me their friend :D but you get the idea.)
Though I respect people's right to choose, my personal idea of a perfect world doesn't necessarily include social parasites like McDonalds.

Actually Islamic countries do have some sort of capitalism. They got these amazing oriental bazaars. Except for the oil-rich sultanates, who are so stinking rich by now that they have huge ass shopping malls instead. At least there, American "culture" has long since set up shop.

Though I respect people's right to choose, my personal idea of a perfect world doesn't necessarily include social parasites like McDonalds.

But....Mcdonalds french fries! chicken nuggets! and Big Macs! I don't want to live in a world that doesn't have them!

-Seriously though, I could camp in the woods for the rest of my life and be fine with that. But that doesn't mean I don't like Mcdonalds once in a great while.

Actually Islamic countries do have some sort of capitalism. They got these amazing oriental bazaars. Except for the oil-rich sultanates, who are so stinking rich by now that they have huge ass shopping malls instead. At least there, American "culture" has long since set up shop.

Woohoo! A foothold!

Anyway, back closer to the topic.

How does the world win on the issue of the middle east, and if we did, would that have any real impact on the war on terror?

I'll touch on the second question.

Solving everything in the Middle East won't end terrorism. Theres still terrorism in Indonesia, Northern Ireland, and violence against whole groups of people in Sudan and Nigeria to name a few.

We're fucking about in the Middle East and more often than not, we're doing little more than just fucking it up. What does victory look like, for this part of the world? Is it really just the US flag flying over Mecca? And if it is, why are we delaying that? Are we just holding on, hoping that someone will think of something? And if we are, why aren't we disturbed that the best minds of our generation haven't thought of anything yet?

Are we doomed to a perpetual stalemate where Islamic states flip back and forth between tyranical dictators and fledgling democracies which hate Israel and the West, or will this eventually end and in a hundred years, History students will be writing "In 5,000 words or less, describe the Middle East problem and what the solution was, and why did it cause so much trouble to the people of the late 20th/ early 21st century?

Nothing stays the same forever, geopolitical hotspots invariably flare up and then disappear again. What is the endgame scenario?


You're an optimist

Kicking ass is not always a favourable trait.

'Kicks slightly less ass but offers free healthcare' is a favourable trait.

Yay! for the quiet voice of sanity.

Victory = the Presidents of Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran tossin' horseshoes in Crawford by 2008. ;)

There is only one victory against terrorism from muslim fundementalists:

Withdrawl of american forces from the middle east.
Return of israel to her legal borders, palestinian state established.
American financial aid given to palestinian state and other middle eastern countries.

There is no victory. You can't wage war against an emotional state, or an idea. You can't be rid of something as nebulous as "terror". The point of the war is to be at war, always. We must have an enemy by which we define ourselves.

We've been in a war on drugs for years. When will we win it?

Terrorism isn't a new thing in America. American terrorists bombed a Federal building in Oklahoma in the '90s, sent Anthrax through the mail only a few years ago, and have been bombing abortion clinics and sniping at doctors and nurses since the '70s.

Only a matter of time till western culture takes root though. You mentioned that as US colonization of the world. To that I respond: and the problem is?
The problem is, like with everything American, that it's American.

There is only one victory against terrorism from muslim fundementalists:

Withdrawl of american forces from the middle east.
Return of israel to her legal borders, palestinian state established.
American financial aid given to palestinian state and other middle eastern countries.

Yup. The best way to beat terrorists is to leave them alone, sanction Israel, and give them land and a monthly stipend to keep control. Brilliant. ;)

Anyway, back closer to the topic.

How does the world win on the issue of the middle east, and if we did, would that have any real impact on the war on terror?A lot of it depends on what you mean by "win." If by win, you mean the west gets a steady supply of oil and little else, then we continue what we're doing, but more of it, more troops, more harsh treatment, and more support of dictatorial regimes.

If by win you mean political stability and a reduction of radical Islamist terror tactics, then you've got me, but it can't hurt to reduce the west's dependence on oil and stop propping up totalitarian regimes--let them stand or fall on their own. And that includes Israel, which is a democracy in the same way that South Africa was during apartheid.

A lot of it depends on what you mean by "win." If by win, you mean the west gets a steady supply of oil and little else, then we continue what we're doing, but more of it, more troops, more harsh treatment, and more support of dictatorial regimes.

If by win you mean political stability and a reduction of radical Islamist terror tactics, then you've got me, but it can't hurt to reduce the west's dependence on oil and stop propping up totalitarian regimes--let them stand or fall on their own. And that includes Israel, which is a democracy in the same way that South Africa was during apartheid.
A win... I'm not sure how to define it. We don't have these kinds of problems with Australia or Japan is what I'm talking about. With Europe, Canada, Mexico. There are different cultures there. There are plenty of people who don't like America in europe, I'm friends with a bunch of them. Maybe all I mean is a peaceful relationship, I don't know.

You're an optimist
I'm not sure that I am. Endgame can just as easily mean game over. Any side can win simply by stamping out all the others.

A win... I'm not sure how to define it. We don't have these kinds of problems with Australia or Japan is what I'm talking about. With Europe, Canada, Mexico. There are different cultures there. There are plenty of people who don't like America in europe, I'm friends with a bunch of them. Maybe all I mean is a peaceful relationship, I don't know.Personally, I'd consider it a win if we managed to keep a peaceful relationship with them, and they managed to have some stability among themselves. Maybe it's a function of time--I mean, Europe was in a constant state of tumult until about 60 years ago, and was in high tension until about 10 years ago.

Maybe it'll take a full-scale, nation on nation eruption in the area where everyone deals with massive destruction before they get their shit worked out. That won't happen until we in the west don't need their oil anymore, because as long as we need it, we'll force some sort of stability on the region. That'll only work for so long, but it has worked after a fashion for the last 30 years or so. But if the west can get to the point where we don't need what they have the largest supply of, then we can abandon them to their own petty squabbles and they'll have to find a way to get their shit together.