NationStates Jolt Archive

I've seen a couple of threads recently which bash the UN, but betray an astonishing lack of understanding on the part of the detractors. I would therefore like to emphasise an important point...

The UN is not a homogenous entity in the way a lot of you seem to assume.

The UN is a forum for the world's nations. The UN does not do anything of itself, any more than an empty auditorium does anything. The words, attitudes and actions of the UN are not simply those of that body, but the collective actions of the world's nations, dependent entirely on consensus or its absence.

Thus, when the UN screws up, it is not the UN being incompetent. It is someone, an actual country's government, failing to pull their weight. When the UN is declared corrupt, it is rather like declaring a defrauded bank corrupt. The fault lies with those who committed the crime, not the organisation within which it was committed.

Thus for example, the genocide in Rwanda is far more the responsibility of the US and UK deciding intervention was not worth their money, than the responsibility of a body with no money with which to fund intervention. Thus allegations of corruption necessitate a review of how nations (and corporations) handle their UN-related financial activities, rather than painting the whole organisation as corrupt.

A lot of people are quick to point the finger at "the UN", but it is not the UN that is at fault, it is usually national governments which are being dysfunctional. The UN does not really have a completely independent existence, as some of you believe. It is best seen as a conference venue. One must look beyond the body, and scrutinise the deeds of the membership.

Hear hear!!!!

Thank you for that information. It was a good post with good, proper information. Everyone should take note of what you had to say there and think about it heavily.

Good work

I agree!

*waits for some gang of republicans to come riding in on their horses shooting their water pistols in the air

The United Nations is an empty auditorium for independent countries in the same way that the United States' Senate is an empty auditorium for the 50 sovereign states of the US. Sorry, you can't shift the failings of the UN onto "the US and the UK" just because it's convenient. The United Nations is an actual entity, with elected officials and everything. And it's not just the General Assembly, it's the Secretariat too. Don't blame Bush for the failings of the UN, blame Kofi Annan, the Secretary-General.

water pistols in the air
No you still have that silly part of your consitution they'll have real guns

No you still have that silly part of your consitution they'll have real guns


Hey, how's that insane violent crime rate thing going for you guys? At any rate, the only ones forming a posse here seem to be the liberals.

Isn't there a division of labor within the UN body, people who do not represent their countries but work on the interests of the UN as an institution? Furthermore, if corruption exists within these groups, and is systemic, can it not be said then that the UN, as an institution, is corrupt?

Hey, how's that insane violent crime rate thing going for you guys? At any rate, the only ones forming a posse here seem to be the liberals.
You mean the one thats lower than yours its great!

The United Nations is an actual entity, with elected officials and everything.Most countries' UN reps are designated, not elected.
And it's not just the General Assembly, it's the Secretariat too. Don't blame Bush for the failings of the UN, blame Kofi Annan, the Secretary-General.Actually, rather than blaming the powerless Secretary-General I blame the framers of the UN Charter for making him powerless. Who were the framers... I'm fairly sure it was led by the five permanent security council members.

The UN isn't corrupt collectively, however some nations should start pulling their weight more . . .

The United Nations is an empty auditorium for independent countries in the same way that the United States' Senate is an empty auditorium for the 50 sovereign states of the US. Sorry, you can't shift the failings of the UN onto "the US and the UK" just because it's convenient. The United Nations is an actual entity, with elected officials and everything. And it's not just the General Assembly, it's the Secretariat too. Don't blame Bush for the failings of the UN, blame Kofi Annan, the Secretary-General.
You have completely missed the point, on several counts.

First, who said anything about Bush being responsible for the failings of the UN? That's just your paranoia speaking.

Second, blanket criticism of the head of the body is missing the point every bit as much as blanket criticism of the body itself. The whole point of what I was saying, was that if people wish to understand why the UN was unable to act effectively in a given situation, blaming the body or looking for a symbollic scalp would be a very shallow way of analysing things.

Third, comparisons of the UN to sovereign governments cannot stand up to scrutiny. The UN is not a government, nor does the bulk of its work enjoy compulsory status, much of its legislation is permissive, etc. Apples, oranges, etc.

Hopefully, my post will encourage people to see that there is internal detail in the UN, that it is not a homogenous, monolithic governmental entity. It is a shame that there are still those who see it as such, even in the supposedly educated West.

Actually, rather than blaming the powerless Secretary-General I blame the framers of the UN Charter for making him powerless. Who were the framers... I'm fairly sure it was led by the five permanent security council members.

Well then, you failed to mention China, France, and Russia in your list of accusations. Besides that, maybe you'd care to review a little history. Surely, given your expertise on the subject, you'd be able to tell me which country pushed for the founding of the UN, and now gives it the greatest funding?

I totally agree with you. Unfortunately the UN is more often than not, abused as a political tool to further national interests. This has led to it being "powerless" when it needs to act on genocide or other humanitarian issues. I'm not sure, but do the UN sub-organisations such as UNICEF rely on votes from the GA/UNSC to do what they do or do these organisations act independently, financed from the UN?

You have completely missed the point, on several counts.

First, who said anything about Bush being responsible for the failings of the UN? That's just your paranoia speaking.

Second, blanket criticism of the head of the body is missing the point every bit as much as blanket criticism of the body itself. The whole point of what I was saying, was that if people wish to understand why the UN was unable to act effectively in a given situation, blaming the body or looking for a symbollic scalp would be a very shallow way of analysing things.

Third, comparisons of the UN to sovereign governments cannot stand up to scrutiny. The UN is not a government, nor does the bulk of its work enjoy compulsory status, much of its legislation is permissive, etc. Apples, oranges, etc.

Hopefully, my post will encourage people to see that there is internal detail in the UN, that it is not a homogenous, monolithic governmental entity. It is a shame that there are still those who see it as such, even in the supposedly educated West.

Isn't this just semantics? I think it's safe to say most people here know that individual nations have not yielded their sovereignty to the UN. If I say the UN is ineffective in resolving a certain issue, be assured I realize that it's because individual nations saw that it was in their best interests to not resolve it.

Hey, how's that insane violent crime rate thing going for you guys? At any rate, the only ones forming a posse here seem to be the liberals.
Hey now ive found a site for you
http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/Crime

Well then, you failed to mention China, France, and Russia in your list of accusations. Besides that, maybe you'd care to review a little history. Surely, given your expertise on the subject, you'd be able to tell me which country pushed for the founding of the UN, and now gives it the greatest funding?What accusations? Did I make an accusation while sleeptyping or something?

And how does what country is currently funding the UN the most have any relevance at all to its Charter?
I don't care who pushed for it in the first place. I care about the people (and to a lesser extent countries) responsible for its Charter coming out the way it did.

You have completely missed the point, on several counts.

First, who said anything about Bush being responsible for the failings of the UN? That's just your paranoia speaking.

Second, blanket criticism of the head of the body is missing the point every bit as much as blanket criticism of the body itself. The whole point of what I was saying, was that if people wish to understand why the UN was unable to act effectively in a given situation, blaming the body or looking for a symbollic scalp would be a very shallow way of analysing things.

Third, comparisons of the UN to sovereign governments cannot stand up to scrutiny. The UN is not a government, nor does the bulk of its work enjoy compulsory status, much of its legislation is permissive, etc. Apples, oranges, etc.

Hopefully, my post will encourage people to see that there is internal detail in the UN, that it is not a homogenous, monolithic governmental entity. It is a shame that there are still those who see it as such, even in the supposedly educated West.

The point is, we're not allowed to criticize the UN at all? Look, I'm not saying that the UN is all powerful but lazy. I'd be the first one to say they have a problem if they can't even start an Assembly on time. But the fact is, they could fix even the little things like that within their own institution, and they haven't. It's certainly not monolithic - it's riddled with holes - with corruption, inefficiency, and with political in-fighting.
As for the "supposedly" educated West, would you mind expounding upon that veiled insult? Please tell me what other culture has done as much for the improvement of mankind.

The point is, we're not allowed to criticize the UN at all? Look, I'm not saying that the UN is all powerful but lazy. I'd be the first one to say they have a problem if they can't even start an Assembly on time. But the fact is, they could fix even the little things like that within their own institution, and they haven't. It's certainly not monolithic - it's riddled with holes - with corruption, inefficiency, and with political in-fighting.
As for the "supposedly" educated West, would you mind expounding upon that veiled insult? Please tell me what other culture has done as much for the improvement of mankind.

No, see, the problem is, maybe YOU don't see it as the equivilant to a country, but a WHOLE lot of other people DO.

It's simply easier to criticize the UN then it is to say "Damn the collective countries that make up the UN for not comming to a good diplomatic agreement on such and such issue!"

So, people decide to be idiots.

Not mentioning any names (though it would be so easy and so, so very satisfying)

Hey now ive found a site for you
http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/Crime

Indeed you have...

Map & Graph: Crime: Total crimes (per capita) (Top 100 Countries)
View this stat: Totals Show map full screen

Country Description Amount
1. Dominica 112.79 per 1000 people
2. New Zealand 108.12 per 1000 people
3. Finland 102.15 per 1000 people
4. Denmark 93.64 per 1000 people
5. Chile 90.00 per 1000 people
6. United Kingdom 86.04 per 1000 people
7. Montserrat 83.49 per 1000 people
8. United States 81.55 per 1000 people

What's that? UK above US? Shock! Horror! Awe!

Map & Graph: Crime: Burglaries (per capita) (Top 100 Countries)
View this stat: Totals Show map full screen

Country Description Amount
1. Australia 22.13 per 1000 people
2. Dominica 18.62 per 1000 people
3. Denmark 18.49 per 1000 people
4. Finland 16.87 per 1000 people
5. New Zealand 16.62 per 1000 people
6. Estonia 16.52 per 1000 people
7. United Kingdom 13.91 per 1000 people
8. Poland 9.44 per 1000 people
9. South Africa 9.22 per 1000 people
10. Canada 9.11 per 1000 people
11. Iceland 8.57 per 1000 people
12. Montserrat 8.56 per 1000 people
13. Switzerland 8.25 per 1000 people
14. Slovenia 8.24 per 1000 people
15. Czech Republic 7.24 per 1000 people
16. United States 7.23 per 1000 people

Map & Graph: Crime: Car thefts (per capita) (Top 100 Countries)
View this stat: Totals Show map full screen

Country Description Amount
1. Australia 7.04 per 1000 people
2. Denmark 5.98 per 1000 people
3. United Kingdom 5.63 per 1000 people
4. New Zealand 5.56 per 1000 people
5. Norway 5.13 per 1000 people
6. France 5.01 per 1000 people
7. Canada 4.97 per 1000 people
8. Italy 4.20 per 1000 people
9. United States 3.95 per 1000 people

We probably have more cars per capita than you guys to boot.



Map & Graph: Crime: Property crime victims (Top 100 Countries)
Scroll down for more information Show map full screen

Country Description Amount
1. New Zealand 14.8% (1991)
2. Australia 13.9% (1999)
3. Italy 12.7% (1991)
4. United Kingdom 12.2% (1999)
5. Malta 10.9% (1996)
6. Canada 10.4% (1999)
7. United States 10.0% (1999)

Map & Graph: Crime: Robberies (per capita) (Top 100 Countries)
View this stat: Totals Show map full screen

Country Description Amount
1. Spain 12.36 per 1000 people
2. Chile 7.06 per 1000 people
3. Costa Rica 4.93 per 1000 people
4. South Africa 4.60 per 1000 people
5. Estonia 3.37 per 1000 people
6. Mexico 2.05 per 1000 people
7. Portugal 1.69 per 1000 people
8. United Kingdom 1.58 per 1000 people
9. Uruguay 1.57 per 1000 people
10. Venezuela 1.41 per 1000 people
11. United States 1.41 per 1000 people

good job now you might want to look at my location Dublin thats Ireland
LOL

good job now you might want to look at my location Dublin thats Ireland
LOL


Northern Ireland is part of the UK... oh wait, but the Americans are the war-mongering imperialists, not the Europeans. You guys are so refined and sophisticated. At any rate, if you're going to be nit-picky, I live in New Hampshire, so my crime rates are even lower than the national average.

Hmm according to these stats, Germany gotta have somewhat angelic crime statistics. I doubt that these numbers are correct.

The United Nations is an empty auditorium for independent countries in the same way that the United States' Senate is an empty auditorium for the 50 sovereign states of the US. Sorry, you can't shift the failings of the UN onto "the US and the UK" just because it's convenient. The United Nations is an actual entity, with elected officials and everything. And it's not just the General Assembly, it's the Secretariat too. Don't blame Bush for the failings of the UN, blame Kofi Annan, the Secretary-General.
Yeah, but if a bill fails to pass, you don't blame the senate as a whole, you blame the senators who voted against it.

I love the way the neo-cons will admonish the UN with one breath saying its overbearing or powerless (thats the first contradiction), and then remind everyone that the US provides the largest proportion of the budget and the military wing of the UN. (the second).

Northern Ireland is part of the UK... oh wait, but the Americans are the war-mongering imperialists, not the Europeans. You guys are so refined and sophisticated. At any rate, if you're going to be nit-picky, I live in New Hampshire, so my crime rates are even lower than the national average.
Nit picky! its my country! You think I like the fact that the north is part of the uk no but thats how history went some people accepted a treay which made us free from english rule but they kept the north where the majority where protestants and wanted their rule. So the english where imperialists, but in my opinion they've stopped now.
EUROPE IS NOT A COUNTRY!

Hmm according to these stats, Germany gotta have somewhat angelic crime statistics. I doubt that these numbers are correct.
1) i want to know if they are arbitrary decisions of what qualifies as each type of crime, or country by country decision

2) i want to see number of violent crime and or gun crime

Map & Graph: Crime: Car thefts (per capita) (Top 100 Countries)
View this stat: Totals Show map full screen

Country Description Amount
1. Australia 7.04 per 1000 people
2. Denmark 5.98 per 1000 people
3. United Kingdom 5.63 per 1000 people
4. New Zealand 5.56 per 1000 people
5. Norway 5.13 per 1000 people
6. France 5.01 per 1000 people
7. Canada 4.97 per 1000 people
8. Italy 4.20 per 1000 people
9. United States 3.95 per 1000 people

We probably have more cars per capita than you guys to boot.
I don't think thats true. I'm almost certain the UK has a higher GDP/capita than the US, not to mention a smaller rich-poor divide. And more middle class people means more cars.

Yeah, but if a bill fails to pass, you don't blame the senate as a whole, you blame the senators who voted against it.

I love the way the neo-cons will admonish the UN with one breath saying its overbearing or powerless (thats the first contradiction), and then remind everyone that the US provides the largest proportion of the budget and the military wing of the UN. (the second).

I'm not saying it's overbearing, I'm saying it's inefficient. What power they do have, they squander. And the US has always been the leader in promoting international relations. If anything, WE'RE the ones with the right to criticize, because we provide the funding.


I don't think thats true. I'm almost certain the UK has a higher GDP/capita than the US, not to mention a smaller rich-poor divide. And more middle class people means more cars.

The US' gdp per capita is about $10k more than the UK's, and our gas is cheaper to boot. In the US, even the lower classes can afford cars.


EUROPE IS NOT A COUNTRY!

No, it's a continent. Full of former imperialist nations.

Thing is, Scotussa, the UN doesn't really have any power of its own--it is totally dependent on the will of the member nations, and it can't order them to do anything. I wish it had more teeth, but the simple fact is that the WTO has far more power than the UN has.

Grace this will involve a lot of harsh words but ah hell whom I kidding don't ban me for this.
I've seen a couple of threads recently which bash the UN, but betray an astonishing lack of understanding on the part of the detractors. I would therefore like to emphasise an important point... [/QUOTE
yeah, but heres your problems

[QUOTE]The UN is not a homogenous entity in the way a lot of you seem to assume.

The UN is a forum for the world's nations. The UN does not do anything of itself, any more than an empty auditorium does anything. The words, attitudes and actions of the UN are not simply those of that body, but the collective actions of the world's nations, dependent entirely on consensus or its absence. [/QOUTE]
duh

[QUOTE]Thus, when the UN screws up, it is not the UN being incompetent. It is someone, an actual country's government, failing to pull their weight. When the UN is declared corrupt, it is rather like declaring a defrauded bank corrupt. The fault lies with those who committed the crime, not the organisation within which it was committed.
the crime commiters don't get pradoned thou.

Thus for example, the genocide in Rwanda is far more the responsibility of the US and UK deciding intervention was not worth their money, than the responsibility of a body with no money with which to fund intervention. Thus allegations of corruption necessitate a review of how nations (and corporations) handle their UN-related financial activities, rather than painting the whole organisation as corrupt.
No it wasn't the UN fault But it wasn't ours either hell this is the most stuipd attempt yet, it the UK and US those bastards it all their fault yeah but they shouldn't have gone to Iraq independantly,contradiction annoys the shit out of me and I have had a bad day so, The US and The UK were too cheap to help and thus it is all their fault as this is self evident, wait a sec thats not right they are already fighting two wars one of the political leaders is in the middle of a campign they didn't have the energy to jump to action.

A lot of people are quick to point the finger at "the UN", but it is not the UN that is at fault, it is usually national governments which are being dysfunctional. The UN does not really have a completely independent existence, as some of you believe. It is best seen as a conference venue. One must look beyond the body, and scrutinise the deeds of the membership.
true

The UN is made up of many governments
mostly corrupt dictatorships of both
the left and the right to be fair.

Just look at Heck Hell
psychotic dictatorship
Heck.

not a UN member.

It's simply easier to criticize the UN then it is to say "Damn the collective countries that make up the UN for not comming to a good diplomatic agreement on such and such issue!"

So, people decide to be idiots.
Precisely. Asking why certain countries failed to reach agreement on an issue is the beginning of a far more intelligent analysis than simply saying that the UN is useless and shouldn't it be scrapped already. A lot of people simply can't think in those terms any more, and it's not helped by the commerical news networks who can't be bothered making the effort to explain an issue in 10 minutes, and choose the road of easy soundbites instead.

somebody asked so i will deliver

Map & Graph: Crime: Murders with firearms (per capita) (Top 100 Countries)

Country Description Amount
1. South Africa 0.74 per 1000 people
2. Colombia 0.52 per 1000 people
3. Thailand 0.31 per 1000 people
4. Zimbabwe 0.04 per 1000 people
5. Mexico 0.03 per 1000 people
6. Costa Rica 0.03 per 1000 people
7. Belarus 0.03 per 1000 people
8. United States 0.02 per 1000 people
9. Uruguay 0.02 per 1000 people
10. Lithuania 0.02 per 1000 people

I know my guns keeps me safe, nobody dares come and mess with my house when everybody knows i am armed

and just for some perspective


Map & Graph: Crime: Murders (per capita) (Top 100 Countries)
View this stat: Totals Show map full screen

Country Description Amount
1. Colombia 0.63 per 1000 people
2. South Africa 0.51 per 1000 people
3. Jamaica 0.32 per 1000 people
4. Venezuela 0.32 per 1000 people
5. Russia 0.19 per 1000 people
6. Mexico 0.13 per 1000 people
7. Lithuania 0.10 per 1000 people
8. Estonia 0.10 per 1000 people
9. Latvia 0.10 per 1000 people
10. Belarus 0.09 per 1000 people
11. Ukraine 0.09 per 1000 people
12. Papua New Guinea 0.08 per 1000 people
13. Kyrgyzstan 0.08 per 1000 people
14. Thailand 0.07 per 1000 people
15. Moldova 0.07 per 1000 people
16. Zambia 0.07 per 1000 people
17. Seychelles 0.07 per 1000 people
18. Zimbabwe 0.07 per 1000 people
19. Costa Rica 0.06 per 1000 people
20. Poland 0.05 per 1000 people
21. Georgia 0.04 per 1000 people
22. Uruguay 0.04 per 1000 people
23. Bulgaria 0.04 per 1000 people
24. United States 0.04 per 1000 people
25. Armenia 0.03 per 1000 people

i suppose knives or tossing people out of windows work just as well at killing people

violent crime is not nearly as rampant as the media would lead people to believe.

That's a good point...among the Europeans I've spoken with, they all seem to have this idea in their heads that the US is full of violent killers, rapists, drug dealers, and gangs. I don't really know how they came to this conclusion.

That's a good point...among the Europeans I've spoken with, they all seem to have this idea in their heads that the US is full of violent killers, rapists, drug dealers, and gangs. I don't really know how they came to this conclusion.
Our asinine media, anyone?

That's a good point...among the Europeans I've spoken with, they all seem to have this idea in their heads that the US is full of violent killers, rapists, drug dealers, and gangs. I don't really know how they came to this conclusion.

Its probably because america has the highest rates of those crimes.