NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, they're finally happening, but with their share of problems too - who do you think of this?

I wonder who wins... 15 candidates boycotting. Is it too late to bet for Karzai...? Weeell, he would have won even without this.

It's a shame that there are these irregularities though. Now, the winner really amounts to ruler of Kabul. All the groups in the countryside can now say the election wasn't legitimate. Shame.

It's a shame that there are these irregularities though. Now, the winner really amounts to ruler of Kabul. All the groups in the countryside can now say the election wasn't legitimate. Shame.
Yeah, the rest of the country is dominated by those corrupt warlords.

I think half the candiates will go missing before the elections.

the first free elections, you must expect some problems. But you have to start someplace and this is a good one. :)

is it true that these are the first free elections Afghanistan has had in 5000 years, perhaps ever?

well i think they used to have elections at some point (before the russians invaded?) but i am not sure how long its been or how free the elections were before. I will do some research when i have some time

OK best I can tell they had some form of election process based on their 1976 constitution

http://www.afghan-web.com/history/const/const1976.html

now, how free and open they were, I have no clue

now, how free and open they were, I have no clue
Just how free and open are these, really? And for as long as they've been delayed, why do I suspect they're happening now only because it's almost November?

Well, good luck to them.

I am ashamed that people are trying to denegrate the elections in Afghanistan as some Bush Political Stunt.

This is not a political stunt but a step in the right direction for the people of Afghanistan. Way to go all.

PS: No major attacks so far.

In some parts of Afghanistan, the local warlords have instructed the locals to vote for Karzai (not canvassing, more like a threat). He has refused to comment on this. Some democracy.

What's going to happen is, the current CIA-funded corrupt elite are going to be elevated from provisional to permanent status, and those who campaign against, are going to be left with self-imposed exile as their best option.

Which is essentially the US repeating the USSR's policy. This, many observers say, is "at least a start". Right. We're supposed to give the communist approach to civil liberties "a chance"? Why not last time? Jeez. :rolleyes:

I am ashamed that people are trying to denegrate the elections in Afghanistan as some Bush Political Stunt.

This is not a political stunt but a step in the right direction for the people of Afghanistan. Way to go all.

PS: No major attacks so far.You silly girl--no one is denigrating them as a political stunt. I, for one, have pointed out again and again that these elections are no more accurate or fair than a poll done on Nationstates. Let's list the problems, shall we?

There are over 10.5 million people registered to vote, while only 8.5 million people are eligible to vote.

Warlords in the Pashtun part of the country have threatened their people with expulsion from the tribe and the burning of their houses if they vote for the wrong candidate--don't ask how they'll know how you voted in a secret ballot election.

The Taliban has threatened anyone in the south who votes at all with death, because it means that they're allying themselves with the infidel occupiers. This is the same Taliban we destroyed, remember?

So pardon me if I don't wet myself in glee over the fact that Afghanistan is holding elections that will express the will of the people about as well as my cat expresses himself to me.

Looks like it's all going to self-destruct to me.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200410/s1216728.htm

Free? FREE?! FREE!?!?!

What is wrong with you collective heads of knuckle?

They are not having free elections in Afghanistan! All those women that Bush/Cheney scream that they gave the right to vote still have to get permission from their husbands to vote.

If that's your idea of "free elections", then you should have your head on a pike.

Free? FREE?! FREE!?!?!

What is wrong with you collective heads of knuckle?

They are not having free elections in Afghanistan! All those women that Bush/Cheney scream that they gave the right to vote still have to get permission from their husbands to vote.

If that's your idea of "free elections", then you should have your head on a pike.I'd left that point off of my list. Thanks for mentioning it. Wonder where all the Afghani elections fans have wandered off to?

It is remarkable what the Americans have put into the small print of the new laws and constitutions of Afghanistan and Iraq. Oppression of women and police torture are just some of the things they decided to conceed to the new authorities in return for their support.

I don't understand how one expects to hold proper, legal, elections in countries that are still in domestic upheaval.

I don't understand how one expects to hold proper, legal, elections in countries that are still in domestic upheaval.

Well we could actually say the samething about the US! LOL

I don't understand how one expects to hold proper, legal, elections in countries that are still in domestic upheaval.Well, it's obvious, isn't it? You can't. But you can put on a dog and pony show and call it an election, declare victory and then get out before it all goes completely to hell. It doesn't help out the people on the ground any, but hell, if we really cared about them, we'd have done this whole thing different from the beginning.

im no big fan of the bush administration
but you have to start somewhere
its a radical change to have women vote even WITH their husbands permission
better to have a guy SOMEONE voted for instead of a guy no one had a say in.

its far from perfect but its a start. if we keep an eye on it, next time they will do better.

the first free elections, you must expect some problems. But you have to start someplace and this is a good one. :)

No, absolutely not, on the contrary. Due to the massive fraude and the fact that there is only one candidate (all the others abandon after the fraude dicovered on most places), this only will result in a failure of democracy.

its far from perfect but its a start. if we keep an eye on it, next time they will do better.
That's a really big if, though, and if our past experience is any indication, we won't keep much of an eye on it.

That's a really big if, though, and if our past experience is any indication, we won't keep much of an eye on it.
very true
but we have been occupying the country for a few years now and we need to move on. this is a necessary start to that process. the only other choice is to establish a dictatorship of some kind

very true
but we have been occupying the country for a few years now and we need to move on. this is a necessary start to that process. the only other choice is to establish a dictatorship of some kindThat's the thing--we haven't been "occupying the country for a few years now." We've never occupied the country. We've occupied Kabul since 2002, but we've never expanded our reach beyond that, and we've never tried. The country is far more than just Kabul.

I have to agree with Ashmoria.
I'm no expert here but don't you think it's something?
I mean, Incertonia and you guys, what do you suggest? Let's just give up trying to arrange free elections because it is impossible, period?

I have to agree with Ashmoria.
I'm no expert here but don't you think it's something?
I mean, Incertonia and you guys, what do you suggest? Let's just give up trying to arrange free elections because it is impossible, period?No--we shouldn't give up, but let's not kid ourselves about the situation over there. You can't have truly free elections without some sort of control, and there is no control. Problem is, we never had control of more than a limited area and never sought to expand it.

I mean, let's be serious here. Karzai has shown so signs of being another Saddam Hussein, but this election has about as much chance of showing the will of the people as Iraq's elections did before the invasion, which is to say none.

its not that i dont agree with you, i just think we have to get started and elections of any kind are a start

its hard to trust bush to ever do the right thing. you cant even trust him to tell you the truth about what he is doing let alone that it is the right thing.

i look at it optimistically because as a thing i cant do anything about, its easier to deal with my powerlessness that way.

its not that i dont agree with you, i just think we have to get started and elections of any kind are a start

its hard to trust bush to ever do the right thing. you cant even trust him to tell you the truth about what he is doing let alone that it is the right thing.

i look at it optimistically because as a thing i cant do anything about, its easier to deal with my powerlessness that way.

And you can't trust Kerry to tell the truth either.

im no big fan of the bush administration
but you have to start somewhere


That's like handing a starving man a dog turd to eat and saying, "Well, at least it's something."

There are women alive in Afghanistan who remember voting in previous elections pre-Taliban who voted without the permission of their husbands and without their husband telling them who they had to vote for. It is not a new idea.

And you can't trust Kerry to tell the truth either.
If you honestly put the statements of Bush and Kerry side by side and check them for truthfulness and accuracy, Kerry comes out ahead by a landslide. Bush and Cheney can't keep their lies straight, and lie even when it doesn't benefit them to do so. It's pathological.

Something I found on another site:

Joyous Afghans cast their vote
From correspondents in Kandahar, Afghanistan
October 10, 2004

JUBILATION reigned today in the former stronghold of Afghanistan's hardline Islamic Taliban regime, as thousands of voters streamed into polling stations in defiance of threats.

"Finally the day has arrived. I am so happy, it's like a dream. I feel that we are finally human," said Zahooba, a toothless old woman of 65 who walked half an hour on shaky legs to the polling station to cast her vote for President Hamid Karzai.

At polling stations around the city, queues of men lined up around the block, as smaller groups of women shrouded in blue, green and violet burquas walked into vote in the country's first presidential election.

Very few female voters were seen in the conservative Pashtun city, with only seven women in one polling site when it opened at 7am in contrast to the 200 men lined up at the neighbouring men's site.

Only around 20 per cent of registered voters in the five southern provinces are women, compared to the national average of over 40 per cent.

Rahgul, a 45-year-old matriarch came with 11 women from her family to cast her vote for Hamid Karzai.

"Our father said we should come early and vote. We are so happy. I can't belive today is the election," she said adding that the men in her family were also voting for Karzai.

She was not worried about attacks or explosions.

"The Taliban warned us but we are not scared. We are Afghans," she added.

Voters were defiant about threats of violence by loyalists of the ousted Taliban regime, who pledged to disrupt the election.

"The Taliban made all these threats but we have voted and we are free to go home now," said one old man as he walked out of the polling station in the governor's office in Kandahar's district one.

When asked if he was scared he vehemently denied it saying: "This is our soil, why should we be scared?"

The streets were almost empty of traffic early today, with vehicles needing a special permit to travel, although there were a handful of brightly painted motorcycle taxis ferrying voters to polling sites.

Afghan police stopped a fuel tanker loaded with explosives outside the city gates yesterday, and have closed the city to commercial traffic and prevented cars travelling from district to district.

The border with neighbouring Pakistan is also closed to commercial traffic as arms and militants are known to cross the border into Afghanistan.

However, voters were overwhelmingly enthusiastic, calling polling day the happiest day of their lives and saying that they hoped it would usher in big changes.

"Today we can vote. We change the future of our country and our lives. After decades of war I know that now things will change," said 25-year-old Abdul Haq.

Agence France-Presse

I support the Afghan elections, despite their corruption. Did you know that 42% of registered voters there are women?

However, I am disgusted by US interference and blatant favouritism of Karzai. He is given American helicopters so that he and his campaign team can visit ten provinces in a day. In contrast, female candidate Massouda Jalal doesn't even have a car for her campaign.

Yeah well Karzai is also subject to assassination attempts by terrorists. It's in everyone's (read: those who want democracy to succeed in Afghanistan) best interest that these attempts fail.

Btw, who do you think is a better candidate than Karzai?

I support the Afghan elections, despite their corruption. Did you know that 42% of registered voters there are women?

However, I am disgusted by US interference and blatant favouritism of Karzai. He is given American helicopters so that he and his campaign team can visit ten provinces in a day. In contrast, female candidate Massouda Jalal doesn't even have a car for her campaign.

I didn't know that, i mean the American interference. It seems that the American gov. has a record of doing things like this, and i personally am getting tired of it. If on candidate is being provided these things then all should. They all should anyway, so that the Afghanis can make an informed decision on who they would like to have leading there country.

Yeah well Karzai is also subject to assassination attempts by terrorists. It's in everyone's (read: those who want democracy to succeed in Afghanistan) best interest that these attempts fail.

Btw, who do you think is a better candidate than Karzai?Not my call--I'm not there and I don't have to live with the results.

Good news was that the Monitoring groups there said that they were "free enough" and that no major incidents took place.

Errr... aside from 14 of the 16 or so candidates withdrawing and refusing to accept the result of the election due to massive fraud? God, the propaganda machine is running full force it seems.

So now the US puppet Karzai gets the official blessing of the uninformed people who don't even know what other choices they have, the blessing of the US emperor (Bush) and may now officially begin ruling Afghanistan in favour of US wishes. The only problem is, that Karzai is the "mayor of Kabul"... he has no authority outside the capital city and has to fear assassination all the time he shows up somewhere. The same will happen in Iraq in January 2005 - Allawi will get the blessing of the US president to rule benevolently in Iraq in favour of the US and incidentially he will be the only candidate people will know about. This is fraud with the faint smell of democracy, it is neither fair nor representative of the will of the people.

Errr... aside from 14 of the 16 or so candidates withdrawing and refusing to accept the result of the election due to massive fraud? God, the propaganda machine is running full force it seems.

Just going by what the monitoring groups are saying Gigatron.

So now the US puppet Karzai gets the official blessing of the uninformed people who don't even know what other choices they have, the blessing of the US emperor (Bush) and may now officially begin ruling Afghanistan in favour of US wishes. The only problem is, that Karzai is the "mayor of Kabul"... he has no authority outside the capital city and has to fear assassination all the time he shows up somewhere. The same will happen in Iraq in January 2005 - Allawi will get the blessing of the US president to rule benevolently in Iraq in favour of the US and incidentially he will be the only candidate people will know about. This is fraud with the faint smell of democracy, it is neither fair nor representative of the will of the people.

1) Bush is no emperor. If he was emporer then we wouldn't be having an Election to decide our next leader.

2) Bush has to fear assassination too hun. As does Shoeder, Putin, Chirac, Blair, Howard, and all world leaders.

3) Doubtful the same will happen in Iraq. Allawi has high approval ratings. Higher than Bush's actually.

4) as for fraud, every democracy has voter fraud. I could point out several examples here in the US but that'll show the democrats in a bad light as well as a few republicans.

Errr... aside from 14 of the 16 or so candidates withdrawing and refusing to accept the result of the election due to massive fraud? God, the propaganda machine is running full force it seems.


But the UN monitors said it was a legitimate election. Don't you believe them? :p

Allawi will get the blessing of the US president to rule benevolently in Iraq in favour of the US and incidentially he will be the only candidate people will know about.

Do you honestly think Bush has more influence than Sistani over the way Iraqis will vote?

But the UN monitors said it was a legitimate election. Don't you believe them? :p



Do you honestly think Bush has more influence than Sistani over the way Iraqis will vote?
It does not matter who votes for who. The elections in both countries are so uncoordinatable and hardly controlable, that election fraud on any scale is easily possible. Allawi simply by being the "interim" PM of Iraq, will also become the elected interim PM because the Iraqis will a) have no other choice and b) not see any political campaigns to convince them that Allawi is the best choice.

If Chalabi had not had some bad luck, he'd be in Allawi's place now and be the future Iraqi ruler.

It does not matter who votes for who. The elections in both countries are so uncoordinatable and hardly controlable, that election fraud on any scale is easily possible.

And yet, independent election monitors say that there's no reason for a new Afghan poll. Do you think you know what's going in Afghanistan better than they?

Allawi simply by being the "interim" PM of Iraq, will also become the elected interim PM because the Iraqis will a) have no other choice and b) not see any political campaigns to convince them that Allawi is the best choice.


You mean that they don't have another choice that *you* are aware of. The kurds have been autonomous for quite some time now, and they have their own leaders. IIRC Allawi is a shiite. I'm sure the Sunnis have their own leader they'd like to vote for, and let's not dismiss the most powerful man in Iraq, the Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani. If he directly endorses a candidate (and it's debatable that he will, since he wants to be seen as above politics) that candidate won't need any commercials to get votes. :D

And yet, independent election monitors say that there's no reason for a new Afghan poll. Do you think you know what's going in Afghanistan better than they?



You mean that they don't have another choice that *you* are aware of. The kurds have been autonomous for quite some time now, and they have their own leaders. IIRC Allawi is a shiite. I'm sure the Sunnis have their own leader they'd like to vote for, and let's not dismiss the most powerful man in Iraq, the Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani. If he directly endorses a candidate (and it's debatable that he will, since he wants to be seen as above politics) that candidate won't need any commercials to get votes. :D
How about Saddam Hussein running for president?

How about Saddam Hussein running for president?

I think the Iraqis have another plan for him :p

I think the Iraqis have another plan for him :p
Do they? Or do the US?

I think the Iraqis have another plan for him :p

He may soon become a piñata. ;)

I've seen numbers up to 42% of support for Hussein by the Iraqis. How this number was found, no idea, but it would be fun to see Hussein win the Iraqi election and Bush lose in the US :p

Do they? Or do the US?

Both. Or maybe you think the kurds and shiites will welcome him back with open arms? :fluffle:

I think they'd welcome him with shoes and a rope :sniper:

Both. Or maybe you think the kurds and shiites will welcome him back with open arms? :fluffle:

I think they'd welcome him with shoes and a rope :sniper:
How about Allawi outside Baghdad? How about Bush in most parts of the world? How about Karzai outside Kabul?

How about Allawi outside Baghdad? How about Bush in most parts of the world? How about Karzai outside Kabul?

I'm not sure what any of that had to do with what we were talking about, except perhaps to strengthen my point. :p

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,135020,00.html

KABUL, Afghanistan — The main opposition candidate in Afghanistan's first-ever presidential election backed off a boycott of the vote, saying Monday that he would accept the findings of an independent commission to look into alleged cheating.

Ethnic Tajik candidate Yunus Qanooni (search), considered the likely runner-up to interim President Hamid Karzai (search), made the announcement at his Kabul home on Monday, a day after two other candidates also peeled away from the boycott. He said he had made his decision after a meeting with U.N. representative Jean Arnault and U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad.

Massooda Jalal, the only female candidate, and ethnic Hazara candidate Mohammed Mohaqeq said Sunday they would end their boycott in favor of setting up the panel A senior Western official who met with some of the 15 candidates on Sunday said many had decided to back down and support the investigative team.

A senior Western official who met with some of the 15 candidates on Sunday said many had decided to back down and support the investigative team.

"Some of the candidates say they made that statement (the boycott) in too much of a rush," the official said on condition of anonymity. "They are now looking for a way out that allows them to save face."