NationStates Jolt Archive

With...

84 Seats Liberal/National
57 Seats Labour
3 Other
6 Undecided

It's a clear Liberal victory...

God help us all, the conservatives are back...

84??? I've got 77 where i am, still means they win though.
I think your watching a channel more up to date with it than the channel I'm watching.

This is fantastic news for Australia! :cool:

This is fantastic news for Australia! :cool:

Nooo! No it's not! We're doomed! :mad: ...ok, I gotta be calm about this...excuse me I'm gonna take a little walk...to sydney... :sniper: just a walk...

Thats it, i'm leaving.

Just as soon as I finish university...if I decide it's worth the increased cash investment...i'm going to take over Kerguelen or some other deserted island.

rational people on the left and in the centre do not lose heart, there is hope, just move to europe :cool:

Can somebody here explain to me what the different australian political parties stand for?

Labor are reformers
Liberals are conservatives
Nationals are farmers
Greens are green
Family First are a Christian values party pretending not to be a church based party
Democrats are centre

rational people on the left and in the centre do not lose heart, there is hope, just move to europe :cool:

You know...I'm seriously thinking about it.

Is there a call for arts degree graduates over there? lol

Can somebody here explain to me what the different australian political parties stand for?

I'll do my best at giving an unbiased description...

Major Parties:

The Liberals are the conservative pro-business party.

Labor are probably best considered a center-right party economically, but less socially conservative.

Minor Parties:

The Nationals are the "farmers party", a conservative party that only runs for and wins power in the country. They and the Liberals are a coalition government.

The Democrats are centre or centre-left, and while they once upon a time held a fair degree of influence, they're all but dead.

The Greens are a left leaning green party, obviously.

One Nation formed as an anti-immigration, new-right party. They're kinda dead now too.

Family First are a new conservative Christian party (though they routinely deny that they have religious connotations, I don't know how else to describe them).

Theres also other little parties like the Socialist Alliance, but the others are the main players.

cheers

cheers

No problem :)

If I see Australian F-18s flying to Indonesia as part of Howard's pre-emptive strikes, I'm in trouble where I live.

If I see Australian F-18s flying to Indonesia as part of Howard's pre-emptive strikes, I'm in trouble where I live.

And i'm getting on a leaky boat to New Zealand. Or failing that, Tasmania.

If I see Australian F-18s flying to Indonesia as part of Howard's pre-emptive strikes, I'm in trouble where I live.

We would much prefer their new president to crack down hard like he claims to, he's always gotten on fairly well with Australia in the past.

*sigh*
It is a depressing day for Australia indeed.
How can there be so many stupid people?

We would much prefer their new president to crack down hard like he claims to, he's always gotten on fairly well with Australia in the past.

Hope so. Living in Darwin with cyclones and the tropical diseases is bad enough, not accounting for invading Indonesians.

*sigh*
It is a depressing day for Australia indeed.
How can there be so many stupid people?

now now, people are not stupid. the australian people will get what they deserve

now now, people are not stupid. the australian people will get what they deserve

Hmm. I'm confused as to what exactly I did to deserve fee increases.

*heaves huge sigh*

3 more years of Howard/Costello, damm.
12 years of coilition government, sheesh, murderers have gotten away with less time than that.
Oh well, time to emigrate, now what is a nice left leaning country with cool weather...hmm Finland, here I come :D.

Hmm. I'm confused as to what exactly I did to deserve fee increases.

You're a student with big HECS debt I assume. I'm glad I got my uni degrees (2) while they were affordable.

Hope so. Living in Darwin with cyclones and the tropical diseases is bad enough, not accounting for invading Indonesians.

He's like a little Indonesian Putin, always has gotten on fairly well with Australia, of Megawati's former admin staff, he got on with the Howard govt best.

He's like a little Indonesian Putin, always has gotten on fairly well with Australia, of Megawati's former admin staff, he got on with the Howard govt best.

:)

But I am range of North Korea's ballistic missiles, unlike most of populated Australia. :confused:

You're a student with big HECS debt I assume. I'm glad I got my uni degrees (2) while they were affordable.

Well, not at the moment, but I will have one. I was considering changing to a double degree, but i'm not sure of doing that, considering i'm unsure i'll be able to find a high paying job to accomodate that.

But I am range of North Korea's ballistic missiles, unlike most of populated Australia.

Don't really need to worry about North Korea, only country they really feel threatened by is the US, but Beijing will keep them from doing anything too stupid.

http://www.immigration.govt.nz/migrant

Does this look like a good idea at the moment? Sure does to me!

Now is not the time to be demoralised. Now is the time to start getting angry.

We're going to need all of our strength over the next three years to defend the hard earned rights which we won over decades of struggle. We need to make sure Howard (and Costello) come out of this term feeling as bruised and sorry for themselves as possible. We want to kick them out the door like the dogs that they are. And the struggle begins NOW - not in three years time when another election comes round. We can't afford to wait that long. We can't afford wait while watching our education, health care, workers rights, social welfare system, etc., get flushed down shit creek without a paddle.

Now is not the time for retreat (whether to Europe or back into lefty friendship groups where we can discuss politics over a nice cup of tea and a biscuit). Now is the time to be vocal, passionate and strong. Now is the time to build the counter-hegemony that will see a brighter future for Australia.

If we can't do that, then, truly, we do deserve what we get.

Now is not the time to be demoralised. Now is the time to start getting angry.

We're going to need all of our strength over the next three years to defend the hard earned rights which we won over decades of struggle. We need to make sure Howard (and Costello) come out of this term feeling as bruised and sorry for themselves as possible. We want to kick them out the door like the dogs that they are. And the struggle begins NOW - not in three years time when another election comes round. We can't afford to wait that long. We can't afford wait while watching our education, health care, workers rights, social welfare system, etc., get flushed down shit creek without a paddle.

Now is not the time for retreat (whether to Europe or back into lefty friendship groups where we can discuss politics over a nice cup of tea and a biscuit). Now is the time to be vocal, passionate and strong. Now is the time to build the counter-hegemony that will see a brighter future for Australia.

If we can't do that, then, truly, we do deserve what we get.

A big thumbs up to you, and a pat on the back for a nice rallying call as your first post :D

http://www.immigration.govt.nz/migrant

Does this look like a good idea at the moment? Sure does to me!

I'll even help you pack

Thank God that Howard got re-elected. He knows what is best for the world!

THanks for Re-electing Howard. :D

Have some faith and bust your ass to change it if you're worried. You'll probably go gray early, and your stress level will rise unexpectedly at times, but the only other option is acceptance, and trust me--as an American who's been dealing with this for more than ten years now, you don't want to accept it.

I'll even help you pack

Can you pass me that pile of clothes other there?

Or at least my Anti-Howard repellant?

Thank God that Howard got re-elected. He knows what is best for the world!

THanks for Re-electing Howard. :D

He does not. He is completely out of touch with the future generation.

Have some faith and bust your ass to change it if you're worried. You'll probably go gray early, and your stress level will rise unexpectedly at times, but the only other option is acceptance, and trust me--as an American who's been dealing with this for more than ten years now, you don't want to accept it.

I've already begun trying. This only made my crusade a bit harder :)

I've already begun trying. This only made my crusade a bit harder :)I feel you, buddy. You have no idea how vividly I feel you.

There was a very short thread up last night asking what you'll do if Kerry wins--and my answer was that I'll rest for a moment and then start working to make sure that Kerry lives up to his progressive potential. It never ends.

The way it was reported over here (in a one minute slot between a report on the opening of the New Scottish Parliament and the findings of a survey that claims people who eat food get fat - I despise major news networks) Howard's delovered one of the world's fastest growing economies. How bad could he be?

The way it was reported over here (in a one minute slot between a report on the opening of the New Scottish Parliament and the findings of a survey that claims people who eat food get fat - I despise major news networks) Howard's delovered one of the world's fastest growing economies. How bad could he be?

True, but the health system has nearly collapsed and the education system is favouring the rich more and more. Howard is refusing to apologise for the Iraq war despite all the proof which his reasons as part of the "Coalition of Willing" did not exist. He's also a personal friend of Bush and seems to follow him around like lapdog

DISCLAIMER: If this offends conservatives, tough.

The way it was reported over here (in a one minute slot between a report on the opening of the New Scottish Parliament and the findings of a survey that claims people who eat food get fat - I despise major news networks) Howard's delovered one of the world's fastest growing economies. How bad could he be?

He's destroying public education and healthcare, detaining refugees unjustly (using a blatant lie in one instance to justify this), refuses to reconcile with the aboriginal population, privatised our telecommunications industry, and unilaterally decided to commit to Iraq, citing the ANZUS treaty (which only indicates that we are obliged to assist the USA if they are attacked, not if they are doing the attacking) and then his further excuse of WMD in Iraq proved to be totally untrue.

(I've no interest in getting into an argument with anyone over this. These are simply my views on why he is bad. I don't care if you think otherwise)

The way it was reported over here (in a one minute slot between a report on the opening of the New Scottish Parliament and the findings of a survey that claims people who eat food get fat - I despise major news networks) Howard's delovered one of the world's fastest growing economies. How bad could he be?I can't claim to know anything about Australian politics, but I have to say that if you support a party or person solely on the basis of a fast growing economy, then you have a very limited view of the situation, as I think Kanabia and Jeruselem have pointed out.

Just reading this thread shows exactly why Labor lost. The left's insistence on treating conservatives as stupid. This type of arrogant assumption is what turns swinging voters off. Even when the nation has resoundingly re-endorsed John Howard all I hear is "how can there be so many stupid people", "thats what you get when you force all the idiots to vote". If people of the left continue to look at the elections this way and insult the people of Australia in such a manner then they are hardly going to achieve anything. Perhaps Labor should look into the real reasons why people rejected them yet again rather than blaming "dirty tricks".
As far as HECS is concerned, you pay it off as a percentage of your wage once your wage reaches a certain level. So being able to afford to pay it off is not an issue. If people want to do double degrees then they should pay for it as they will be the ones benefitting from that education. Higher HECS fees means new and better equipment in universities which is only good for the students studying there. I had a HECS debt and it took me 9 years to pay it off.
As far as Indonesian relations go, the change in government in Indonesia will certainly help foster closer ties and hopefully encourage Indonesia and Australia to work together to eradicate Jemaah Islamiah.

The re-election of Howard was a good thing for Australia so we can continue on as we were before the election.

*cue the flaming*

I can't claim to know anything about Australian politics, but I have to say that if you support a party or person solely on the basis of a fast growing economy, then you have a very limited view of the situation, as I think Kanabia and Jeruselem have pointed out.

Yes, he forgot to mention low unemployment and low interest rates on top of the fastest growing economy. This provides stability for the nation.

I don't see why people love Howard so much. He taxes like he's a Labor government, but each year delivers less and less services. I demand a tax cut! And a big one! None of this bribing us with our own money crap!

http://www.immigration.govt.nz/migrant

Does this look like a good idea at the moment? Sure does to me!

As long as you're against Howard, we'd be happy to have you, and anyone else.

Just don't bring any Asian people, as we like to discriminate against them.

" Don't look at me, I voted for the Democrats, what is your excuse ... "

* Or, TRoK wakes up sunday morning, sitting in a pile of thousands and thousands upon thousands of falsified ballot sheets, all with " 1 " in the Democrat box ...

" Oh bollocks, I knew I forgot something ... "

Labour just didn't gain enough primary on the marginal seats.

But it still did better than the 20 loss that was predicted last year.

Have some faith and bust your ass to change it if you're worried. You'll probably go gray early, and your stress level will rise unexpectedly at times, but the only other option is acceptance, and trust me--as an American who's been dealing with this for more than ten years now, you don't want to accept it.

We won't accept it, believe me.
You and any other outsider who saw our "jovial" posts last night will have to forgive us. Howard winning yet again, was the most disappointing election result since he got in the first time. Last night, it was a "laugh or cry" situation for all Labor supporters, especially those of us who worked with our local Labor members on their campaigns. Today, all the hard work starts over again, and we won't give up, or stop trying to get the Liberals out of power, and keep them honest (though in Howards case, that is impossible), until the next election.
Labor may be down, but its far from out.

We won't accept it, believe me.
You and any other outsider who saw our "jovial" posts last night will have to forgive us. Howard winning yet again, was the most disappointing election result since he got in the first time. Last night, it was a "laugh or cry" situation for all Labor supporters, especially those of us who worked with our local Labor members on their campaigns. Today, all the hard work starts over again, and we won't give up, or stop trying to get the Liberals out of power, and keep them honest (though in Howards case, that is impossible), until the next election.
Labor may be down, but its far from out.

This election prompted me to consider helping out the Labor member for Hughes, Greg Holland, unfortunately the seat of Hughes is quite easily a Liberal seat, :(.

It was depressing last night, and I was very close to tears, thankfully also had a bottle of jim beam, so I made it through without too many problems.

This election prompted me to consider helping out the Labor member for Hughes, Greg Holland, unfortunately the seat of Hughes is quite easily a Liberal seat, :(.

It was depressing last night, and I was very close to tears, thankfully also had a bottle of jim beam, so I made it through without too many problems.

I feel for you, and all of us. Yesterday was a sad day for Australia.
I am lucky enough to have Wayne Swan as my local member, and to live in a safe Labor seat, which he retained easily. That did ease the pain a bit.

I know, I know this is going to get some peoples tempers fired up


Why doesn't Australia become the 51st state of the United States.

Your population would put you on par with California or New York, You would be able to trade to one of the worlds largest markets without Tarrifs. You could travel all the way to North America without a passport.


And we would benefit in the fact we wouldn't have to care about Europe much anymore. We've always been close allies anyway, Come on, you know you want to.


Plus having Australia would be so cool, it'd be an Awesome duty post and fun travel spot, hell your tourism would probably go up.

I know, I know this is going to get some peoples tempers fired up


Why doesn't Australia become the 51st state of the United States.

Your population would put you on par with California or New York, You would be able to trade to one of the worlds largest markets without Tarrifs. You could travel all the way to North America without a passport.


And we would benefit in the fact we wouldn't have to care about Europe much anymore. We've always been close allies anyway, Come on, you know you want to.


Plus having Australia would be so cool, it'd be an Awesome duty post and fun travel spot, hell your tourism would probably go up.


Prehaps we are already well on the way to being the 51st state :D

Well with Howards track record of lies, deceptions, and hiding important information from the public, it would'nt surprise me if Johnny has already signed the papers, and just forgotten to tell the public about it :D:D.

Maybe thats what all these secret meetings, and telephone calls to Bush are all about, what our new US state flag will look like, and not about Iraq and the free trade agreement after all :D.

Yes, he forgot to mention low unemployment and low interest rates on top of the fastest growing economy. This provides stability for the nation.

I'm afraid that you're looking at the skewed Liberal Party statistics, there is higher employment, however, the majority of these jobs are casual work. Many of which are being created at the expense of full-time work. And because of the Liberal commitment to destroying all the power of trade-unions, these people are exploited with poor working condidtions, poor working hours, poor pay, and complete uncertainty about whether they will have a job the next day. We need to re-establish trade union power in this country in order to stop people from being exploited. And even worse, Liberal wants to make student unions voluntary; therefore students will have no political representation, nobody to stand up for their rights because they spend their union fees on things such as food because of the abysmal state of the welfare system for students in this country.

I know, I know this is going to get some peoples tempers fired up


Why doesn't Australia become the 51st state of the United States.

Your population would put you on par with California or New York, You would be able to trade to one of the worlds largest markets without Tarrifs. You could travel all the way to North America without a passport.


And we would benefit in the fact we wouldn't have to care about Europe much anymore. We've always been close allies anyway, Come on, you know you want to.


Plus having Australia would be so cool, it'd be an Awesome duty post and fun travel spot, hell your tourism would probably go up.

No, we're going to be the 53th state. You have Iraq and Afghanistan already.

Hail Howard! Sieg Heil to Liberal Party :mad:

Liberal wants to make student unions voluntary; therefore students will have no political representation, nobody to stand up for their rights because they spend their union fees on things such as food because of the abysmal state of the welfare system for students in this country.

You know how much I wished I didn't need to pay union fees? Their use to me was slim zero and zilch, I never used their facilities and the 1 time I could have used their help, I chose not to because it was easier and more effective to deal with on my own, so I did. Voluntary unions are fine, but take compulsory unions and shove them where the sun doesn't shine. My money, my choice, damn socialist twats.

We need to re-establish trade union power in this country in order to stop people from being exploited.

No we don't, trade union busting is one of the best things to have happened to this country.

And because of the Liberal commitment to destroying all the power of trade-unions, these people are exploited with poor working condidtions, poor working hours, poor pay, and complete uncertainty about whether they will have a job the next day.

What is this drivel you spew, casual work usually pays higher in the now but is offset by the lack of benefits, it's prevalent throughout the ever increasing retail industry because it best suits not only the employers, but in many cases, the employees.

Liberal keeps winning not because of scare campaigns (this was every bit a 2 way street, do you know how many "hand over to Peter Costello" and "John Howard is a liar" ads i saw?!?!?), but because you're out of touch with the 21st century Australia. :headbang:

My my, is the poor little conservative having trouble facing facts? :rolleyes: Resorting to insulting people is always a sure sign that you have lost an arguement. Simply refuting everything I say doesn't make you right, facts are facts, you need to face up to the fact that conservatism is out of touch with the needs of a 21st century society. The Liberal Party's reforms are simply creating an exploited under class of minimum-wage workers. Professional casual work may pay higher rates, however, for that vast group of untrained workers it simply means poverty and uncertainty.

As long as you're against Howard, we'd be happy to have you, and anyone else.

Just don't bring any Asian people, as we like to discriminate against them.

I'll come... or I might stay in where I am, right in the middle of ALP territory.

I'm afraid that you're looking at the skewed Liberal Party statistics, there is higher employment, however, the majority of these jobs are casual work. Many of which are being created at the expense of full-time work. And because of the Liberal commitment to destroying all the power of trade-unions, these people are exploited with poor working condidtions, poor working hours, poor pay, and complete uncertainty about whether they will have a job the next day. We need to re-establish trade union power in this country in order to stop people from being exploited. And even worse, Liberal wants to make student unions voluntary; therefore students will have no political representation, nobody to stand up for their rights because they spend their union fees on things such as food because of the abysmal state of the welfare system for students in this country.

Trade Union power is a blight on our nation. They were useful when they actually stuck to making sure working conditions were safe and pay was fair. Now they hold governments to ransom blowing out costs for projects by failing to meet deadlines due to their petty disputes and powerplays. The only people they harm with their needless strikes and disputes are those they are supposed to represent who are essentially banned from working during the strikes and therefore earn no money.
Student Unions should be voluntary. Why the hell should anyone be forced to join a union? Least of all a Student Union. Student Unions do not represent students, they represent their own political agendas. My first day of university showed me that. The leader of the student union stood up after the Chancellor and Vice Chancellor had welcomed us and abuse the hell out of them in her speech. Now, that was not representing me or any other student. She was using her position for her own political mouthpiece.
Students have access to government payments (Youth Allowance, AUSTUDY, ABSTUDY) they also have access to rent assistance, allowances for living away from home etc etc. What more do you want? If you would rather spend what money you have on an irrelevant political body such as your student union then go ahead but don't expect the taxpayer to give you extra money to cover it. Get a part time job for extra cash. Don't go out drinking every weekend, give up smoking. Buy cheaper clothes. Sometimes you have to sacrifice some non-eesentials to buy the essentials.

The age of Youth Allowance NOT being dependant on parental income should be lowered to 18.

I'll wait until Bush gets elected to a second term before I throw a combined election win party. :)

The age of Youth Allowance NOT being dependant on parental income should be lowered to 18.

If they are living away from home, yes. If they are living with their parents then I would disagree.

Professional casual work may pay higher rates, however, for that vast group of untrained workers it simply means poverty and uncertainty.

There is nothing "professional" about the retail industry, rarely are they trained, in fact it's only in the "classy" shops that you'll see experienced exployees, and that's a market condition. And in many of these retail industries, they can't give away full time jobs, people work them because of the flexibility of casual hours. They are hardly underpaid And these with "professional" casual workers make up the massive majority of "casual employees".

And finally, why should businesses be forced to give employment to people?
That woodcutter's union in Tasmania, there's no use to being a casual woodcutter, for either employer or employee, so they're full or part time, but why should an industry where full or part time is counter productive be forced to give it?

you need to face up to the fact that conservatism is out of touch with the needs of a 21st century society.

The failure of the 20th century, and somehow it will magically work in the 21st?

Socialism is an immoral system based around a flawed view of equality. It doesn't work, not because of "practical" application issues but because its theoretically just not sound. The egregious statement that "Communism is great in theory but awful in practice" doesn't help things one bit.

The Australian taxpayer through its government does more than enough for the people currently, if anything it could use with further trimming, then we might get that government debt down so we're not paying $5b a year in interest from our taxes.

If you feel you want to give money to assist others further with their plight, feel free, I'll respect your right to do so, but are you willing to extend the same courtesy to me.

This is fantastic news for Australia! :cool:
:headbang: :headbang: I just don't understand... how could he get back in? How????? Why????? :confused: :(

:headbang: :headbang: I just don't understand... how could he get back in? How????? Why????? :confused: :(

Because he was the best choice for Prime Minister and has a track record of stability and good economic management. Not to mention his ability to stand by his party's convictions.

Out of curiosity, are you old enough to vote? No offense, just wondering.

Much like the Northeast "elite", many leftists in Australia and America cannot fathom why conservatives get elected because no one they know voted for the conservative candidates.

It illustrates how out of touch the leftists are with the common people.

Much like the Northeast "elite", many leftists in Australia and America cannot fathom why conservatives get elected because no one they know voted for the conservative candidates.

It illustrates how out of touch the leftists are with the common people.

I think this is true to the point where the left do not poll as well as they feel they should have. They are too dismissive of conservative opinion and write it off as stupidity. Only when the votes are counted do they then realise that not everyone shares their vision and cannot fathom why. Also, due to their aversion to opposing views they tend to preach to the converted rather that try and discuss their issues with those uncertain or even opposing their views.

The Labor party in Australia, while not truly left-wing, has an element within it that is more than leaning to the left. This means Labor has to placate this element within their party and this is often at their own expense. I think Latham completely misread the Tasmanian timber industry situation and suffered for it in his attempt to satisfy the Labor left and also try to gain preferences from the Greens that they would more than likely have already received. All he managed to do was alienate a union and an industry that had a controlling stake in 2 Tasmanian seats that Labor lost on Saturday.

It's been interesting reading all the Australian reactions to your election. I suppose you'll find it similarly interesting to read American reactions to ours next month. Couple thoughts come to mind as a relatively disinterested observer:

Australia's a great country, face it. It'll be a great country 20 years from now, regardless of who you elect as your national leader.

There's practically zero difference between our two major parties, regardless of the rhetoric you hear. Proof: Clinton was one of the greatest Republican presidents ever, and Bush has been one of the greatest Democrats (in terms of increasing/decreasing size of gov't, social spending, etc).
I know your parties are much more starkly contrasted than ours are, but just how big a difference between their plans is there? I mean, I seriously doubt any of your major parties could truly run your economy or social structure into the ground. There are only so many ways to steer a modern, industrialized, stable nation.

Thanks for the crash course in Australian Politics.

Regards,

Dave, Supreme Commander and Emperor for Life, Empire of Galyden :)

I seriously doubt any of your major parties could truly run your economy or social structure into the ground.

Hmmm... I don't know about that. If the greens come to power we might stop using cars and if family first comes to power than compulsary christianity, banned religions, banned sexual intercourse with another of the same sex.
Thank god those two don't have a chance...

Only thing I can tell those that are unhappy with the out come in the election. Due to the low birth rates in France
they are taking everyone able to vote in order to push back the take over from the out side.... and as a bonus you get a goverment is bent on opposing western values /culture and feel that America is a catastrophe happening all over the world.

But remember... with America and its much loved Allies.( Australia included) Saddam would be sitting in Kuwait and headed for Saudia Arabia right now.... burn that in a petrol tank and smell the fumes.. ehehhehe

Hmmm... I don't know about that. If the greens come to power we might stop using cars and if family first comes to power than compulsary christianity, banned religions, banned sexual intercourse with another of the same sex.
Thank god those two don't have a chance...

Ah, good point. I misunderstood and thought they weren't major parties. Right-o, thank goodness they don't have a shot (we've got our own greens and family-first groups here -- they're keeping our "two party" system intact).

Regards,
Dave

Ah, good point. I misunderstood and thought they weren't major parties. Right-o, thank goodness they don't have a shot (we've got our own greens and family-first groups here -- they're keeping our "two party" system intact).

Regards,
Dave

They aren't major parties and never will be while they hold their delusional policies.

They aren't major parties and never will be while they hold their delusional policies.

Hehehe...delusional, yep thats them.

A wise man once said that

Democracy only works till a majority finds out they can vote themselves free money....

These minor parties start promising enough benifits with out any more of a string than vote for us.....

minor can be come major faster than you will believe...

We are seeing the beginnings of this here in the States...

What then... ????

Gladney. one core thing to understand with Australia, is federal/state power is far more split up than you would have.

The Australian federal government's power is resricted to basically

The economy (finance, trade, welfare, environment)
Foreign relations
Immigration
Control of "Australian international water"
the Military
Marriage laws
Railway system (predominantly if deemed "for military use")

And the High Court is very strict in keeping them to their set powers.

We do not have full faith and clause.

Issues such as abortion, have starkly different laws from state to state, and the only "federal" crime is treason, and our only "federal" prison holds military gone bad.

Whilst a federal government may make laws from time to time in other areas, the states have much greater freedom to just ignore them and always win if challenged.

Whilst for the most part the country is very similar, the meetings of state premiers and federal pressure through economic grants will push states, key issues held dear to specific states will produce vastly different laws such as the aforementioned abortion laws (the firearm restrictions is another one, Queensland refused to ban semi automatic weapons whilst the rest of Australia did when the law was first brought in).

This is why you'll notice Australian elections become predominantly a battle of economic philosophy and not a great deal else.

The left here is not as it once was, we seem to have been flooded by American liberalism, whilst Academia always was an issue, they usually lose that ideal during/after schooling and sooner or later they figure out the federal government has very little influence into social policy.

Personally i sort of like my Labor state leader, he cracks down on drug users, organised crime, harsher sentencing for criminals, greatly reduced social spending (even moreso than our "conservatives" were lol). In fact he's the best left wing neo-con state leader this state has had.

I had "thought" our Labor leader would pose right wing economic policies, in fact, his early murmurings seemed to indicate it.

However as mentioned before, in order to start catering to the left wing radicals, he threw off the shackles and out came the socialist policy bat.

Pandering to the greens cost them 2 safe seats in Tasmania that required sizeable swings, and the pm only had to promise the union that his policy was to "change nothing" :p

One thing about our conservatives that makes me laugh is they're the masters at pushing "tax cuts" as "government spending", in fact of their election "spending" promises, about 60% of the "spending" were tax cuts. (the rest was predominantly educational infrastructure and especially military) The opposition have even been playing it off as "the push for bigger government", it's really quite amusing.

A big thumbs up to you, and a pat on the back for a nice rallying call as your first post :D

Yeah He's right not many people start off with such A good first post.
But dont be too aggressive, now is the time to play it smart.

"Students have access to government payments (Youth Allowance, AUSTUDY, ABSTUDY) they also have access to rent assistance, allowances for living away from home etc etc. What more do you want? If you would rather spend what money you have on an irrelevant political body such as your student union then go ahead but don't expect the taxpayer to give you extra money to cover it. Get a part time job for extra cash. Don't go out drinking every weekend, give up smoking. Buy cheaper clothes. Sometimes you have to sacrifice some non-eesentials to buy the essentials."
Students have accessto government payments, yet I know people who've been unable to feed themselves properly for a week because they haven't gotten those payments. Also at what stage was 'extra money' mentioned, it was merely pointed out that students would be sacrificing facilities and representation in order to feed themselves and pay rent etc... Doesn't that strike you as wrong? Get a part time job? That isn't always possible/easy. Alot of students do try to get part time jobs and the like, but if I had to juggle study and work I'd probably have a mental breakdown. Also student unions provide part time work for people. Some people do jobs for the student union as they go through uni. Student unions become non-compulsory leads to student unions become non-viable leads to several people out of work and relying on government hand-outs. Buy cheaper clothes? I'm sorry, how many uni students being supported solely by the government do you see walking around wearing high fashion. I don't see many and usually what good clothes they do own were at least in part funded by their parents. Alot of uni students are fairly sensible when it comes to going out/spending money. Even I, living in a college whose social calender revolves around alcohol have managed to find several people I can relate to in that they don't rely on alcohol for enjoyment and are able to have fun while staying perfectly sober and spending no money (except perhaps on some chocolate). If you are going to argue don't argue with stereotypes, this is called prejudice. While there will be cases where your stance appears validated, often you will find fact disagrees with what you have said.

Because he was the best choice for Prime Minister and has a track record of stability and good economic management. Not to mention his ability to stand by his party's convictions.

Out of curiosity, are you old enough to vote? No offense, just wondering.

Lame Tygaland. Very lame. And judging by the Way the conservatives in this thread are simplifying as conservatvies tend to do. I'd say they are right. But is all the mainstream does is simplify then that really A bad thing isnt it?

Thank God that Howard got re-elected. He knows what is best for the world!

THanks for Re-electing Howard. :D

HaHa. Formal just Praised A Liberal!
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Doesn't that strike you as wrong?

What's wrong is a lack of choice.

It's sort of like that family payment, labor wanted it over time, liberal went for the lumpsum?

Why should the responsible majority be detrimented for the sake of the irresponsible minority? Why should the government thrust "responsibility" on those who can't for themselves?

If you stick your head in an oven, it's not the government's fault for not having adequate labels placed on it. It's like an "in thing" of the 70's and beyond to not be responsible for yourself, to have big brother do it for you, and it's ridiculous and "Un-Australian".

Also student unions provide part time work for people. Some people do jobs for the student union as they go through uni. Student unions become non-compulsory leads to student unions become non-viable leads to several people out of work and relying on government hand-outs.

Why should I pay MY $300 for Student Union Fees when I have NO USE whatsoever for that student union?

I can understand taxes, I can deal with taxes, but why should I be forced to effectively pay a tax to "private institution", which traditionally especially holds a political ideology that I despise?

While there will be cases where your stance appears validated, often you will find fact disagrees with what you have said.

Here's the fundamental collapse of the left, bear with me here.

All your scenarios revolve around "what about the poor bastard who can't?"

To that I counter, "What about the poor bastard who can?"

By catering to this "lowest common denominator", you create a society based around people being rewarded for not doing things.

Hold the poor bastard who can down, to prop up the poor bastard who can't.

I'm not even proposing the complete destruction of all welfare, I don't think anyone wants a homeless/poor problem like found in the US, but our government seriously carries too much dead weight as is.

Latham's policy should have read "Opportunity for all, Equality for none"

Gladney. one core thing to understand with Australia, is federal/state power is far more split up than you would have.

Voldavia, thanks. I appreciate the break down, and enjoyed the posts following it. Who'd have thought I would actually learn something on the www today? Wonders never cease ...

Ha!

Regards,

Lame Tygaland. Very lame. And judging by the Way the conservatives in this thread are simplifying as conservatvies tend to do. I'd say they are right. But is all the mainstream does is simplify then that really A bad thing isnt it?

Can you point out what was lame about what I said? I am not sure I understand what you are getting at.

Im currently doing research for a professor here on the loss of US legitimacy. Do any of you Aussy's have a good source showing the election somehow being swayed by loss of American legitimacy worldwide a la Spain?

Im currently doing research for a professor here on the loss of US legitimacy. Do any of you Aussy's have a good source showing the election somehow being swayed by loss of American legitimacy worldwide a la Spain?

Capitallo, there was a large swing towards the party who supported the war. While the war opinion leans ever so slightly in the "no" bracket, it seemed to be a moot point to the election.

;) rational people on the left and in the centre do not lose heart, there is hope, just move to europe :cool:

Yep that's what I did. :D

The good thing is you can still vote overseas!

Hmmm... I don't know about that. If the greens come to power we might stop using cars and if family first comes to power than compulsary christianity, banned religions, banned sexual intercourse with another of the same sex.
Thank god those two don't have a chance...

The greens are not a major party.

;)

Yep that's what I did. :D

The good thing is you can still vote overseas!

LOL, what country are you in? and what do u do over there?

Voldavia That hardcore Free market shit is all well and good, and in fact we'll see how well it works very soon. But aren't you being A tad melodramatic. Its hardly A disaster if you have to pay A little more on your taxes.

In fact, I'm not quite sure what you're even on about. Its the liberals levying Record taxes to fund those programs you dont like.

And tygaland, I tihnk you know what I'm talking about. But I'll humour you.

Lame that you made that puppet so you could retort with some Liberal Rhetoric.

HaHa. Formal just Praised A Liberal!
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

I support any-one that supports the War in Iraq! :D

Well then Nice to know you're not completely Partisan.

In fact, I'm not quite sure what you're even on about. Its the liberals levying Record taxes to fund those programs you dont like.

laugh, did you actually read the liberal proposal? I did, and laughed at how they proposed it.

Such expansive spending (yes they actually called this spending) as tax cuts (no wait, the correct wording is "tax breaks") for small businesses and familes which make up about 60% of their "spending".

Then you have about 25% going to the military (the new Aegis destroyers, Abram tanks).

A large chunk going into rebuilding outdated education infrastructure, fair enough, there's no point in even having schools if they don't have the infrastructure to get the job done.

They also want to take over the education and the health system from the states, so the money will be going directly rather than through the states.

As for our taxes atm, they're the product of overspending governments (of both flavours) of the past that have us paying billions in interest alone. In fact the only reason a government can run a surplus without the system capitulating inwards is the debt.

That hardcore Free market shit is all well and good, and in fact we'll see how well it works very soon.

Yes we will, and none too soon, the European economies are in the crapper, the US is going the wrong way, but at least its only their government budget and not their economy in general. The government has spent far too long funding all these "social programs" with the money of future generations.

The Neo-cons In the U.S think that Defecits dont matter.

"Reagan proved that defectis dont matter" - Cheney

yes, and "tax breaks" are really government spending, Howard has never lied, Latham isn't a dumbass, and Bob Brown isn't a prick :p

Well now I'm jsut confused. I dont think I should have eaten those Funny Tassting Nuts.

One thing I really wish we could do in this country is abandon atomophobia and move to nuclear power. As the 2nd biggest uranium exporter (behind Canada), and nuclear power being the cleanest, safest "build anywhere" power, it would not only benefit the environment, but provide amore scaleable power grid.

Well now I'm jsut confused. I dont think I should have eaten those Funny Tassting Nuts.

I don't believe campaign rhetoric, I believe policy and economic realities?

One thing I really wish we could do in this country is abandon atomophobia and move to nuclear power. As the 2nd biggest uranium exporter (behind Canada), and nuclear power being the cleanest, safest "build anywhere" power, it would not only benefit the environment, but provide amore scaleable power grid.

Tell that to the enviromental Wackos here in the US! It is cleaner but they are 100% adament against new power plants.

I don't believe campaign rhetoric, I believe policy and economic realities?

The reality is that Liberal and Labours Economic policies werent terribly different. And the Argument that the screwed things up when they were in office doesnt hold because that was back during a different time, last century even. Times for labour have changed since then.

The reality is that Liberal and Labours Economic policies werent terribly different.

They weren't until Latham started trying to pander for preferences.

the Medicare policies were light years apart. Latham's also wasn't properly costed, Costello was really attacking it, but even the revenue dept spotted a few hundred million dollar shortfall (not Costello's 2b though). The AMA attacked it as unworkable due to simply lack of medical staff (this is not a good thing).

Howard wanted to further lower taxes for businesses, Latham proposed a 6% company tax increase (to 36%). Up vs down. He abandoned his earlier policy (about 3 months pre election) of cutting the top income bracket taxes from 47% to 40% by putting this money "elsewhere" and simply shifting the top bracket was going to be "good enough". (Obvious pandering to the ultra left)

Latham's policy was going to harm single parent families, his own backbencher in WA went against the party, Latham simply dismissed it as lies. Howard was further reducing taxes upon families.

The rest was much of a muchness.

But in those key areas, Latham's policies were divisive (there's no other way to put medicare gold), poorly thought out, backtracked for the partisan left, possibly not even workable, or potentially harmful to those who need it least (single parent families).

The Partisan left voting for LAbour was never in doubt.

The Partisan left voting for LAbour was never in doubt.

a lot of the partisan left went over to the greens, and the one thing I know about them, is they are predominantly c***s who would have spited the Labor party if Latham had stuck with his income tax reduction for the top bracket.

Seriously, in what universe does the labor party abandon a workers union in favour of making sure that extra 20% (80% wasn't enough, even though Tasmania has the highst protected % at 80% of any state) of old growth forest was protected?

Howard won their votes and their seats with a policy that was basically "I will do nothing, I will let things stay as they are now", seriously, could Latham have made it any easier if he tried? I imagine any workers in "potentially precarious environmental conditions" would have been worried about Latham's green sellout.

I voted One Nation, but we need a Torries party.

Well, I wonder how many of Howard's election promises were non-core? ;) I really hope that he doesn't plan on spending as much as he said he would.

I mean, I'm still annoyed that the two parties were throwing so much of our cash around to bribe us. It looks like it's time for some significant tax cuts. Isn't anyone else on the right annoyed about that?

As for Latham, well, his sell-out of Tasmania was outrageous. I'm glad he was punished for trying to use Tasmania as a political football. Of course, I'm Tasmanian, so I'm biased. It doesn't look like the ALP are going to be smart and elect Rudd.

I mean, I'm still annoyed that the two parties were throwing so much of our cash around to bribe us. It looks like it's time for some significant tax cuts. Isn't anyone else on the right annoyed about that?

Heh did you see what Liberal was actually promising? most of it was tax cuts that they pawned off as "spending".

Well, I wonder how many of Howard's election promises were non-core?

The promise to look into "family impact statements" was a preference deal with family first, he had attached himself to the family tax cut long before (Howard's a big proponent of the nuclear family), personally i hope he does end up doing the family impact statement.

No latham would have to have done some Pretty outrageous Stuff to lose green preferences.

No latham would have to have done some Pretty outrageous Stuff to lose green preferences.

Are you honestly trying to say that the Tasmanian forestry issue wasn't a sell out to the Greens?

The greens have a history of spiting the labor party for not bending over backwards for them.

I mean, I'm still annoyed that the two parties were throwing so much of our cash around to bribe us.


And most of it to pointless crap. If it was to universities, Howard would have a promise that both sides would be proud of.

Are you honestly trying to say that the Tasmanian forestry issue wasn't a sell out to the Greens?

The greens have a history of spiting the labor party for not bending over backwards for them.

I didnt know that. I'd have thought that Greens would have done anything to be rid of howard.

In tasmania in 1989, labor formed a coalition government with them, however in 1995, the labor party told them to "Get f***ed" rather than form another coalition government with them, therefore causing them to lose the election.

The former tasmanian labor premier despises everything about them :p
Loss was a better choice than dealing with them.

The greens chose to deal with the liberal party rather than compromise one iota for the labor party.

The former labor premier is quoted as saying of them "The moral certitude of the radicals is awesome, they are incapable of compromise" in conjunction with saying the party is a captive of its radical extreme elements.

I fear for an australia where they have the balance of power, of course labor and liberal are more likely to cooperate sanely than <insert anyone here> and the greens.

To tell you the truth, I honestly didn't mind the "Real Latham"'s policies

By the real Latham, I mean the policies he was talking about in the months well before the election that weren't part of his package but he commented towards while very little of Australia was watching.

There was one policy that proposed to cut the top income tax bracket from 47 to 40% and offset it by increasing company tax from 30 to 36%. Whilst I personally think this particular policy is a step in the wrong direction, it at least indicated what he really thinks when noone is really watching.

He's actually really centre right economically.

Of course come election time, he had to throw off what he really thinks to start catering to left factions, and shifted back to the centre left, and it really looked like his policies hadn't had a great deal of work put into them, they weren't even properly costed which made them seem even more amateur.

I thought it was interesting that the whole "sending Australia to war" thing never really came up in the election campaign. It looks like Blair might be sacked cause of the war in the UK and the war is the main issue in the US campaign, but still nothing much here in Aus...

I wonder if it would have been an issue if the latest hostage taken was an Aussie... :confused:

I guess no one would have cared really as long as we don't get HIGHER INTEREST RATES!!! :eek:

Do you know what Australia's hostage policy is?

You never back down.

It involves the special forces.

You make sure every single hostage taker is killed, and whilst you don't try to kill the hostages, their deaths are considered acceptable losses.

Everyone is all "he is doing a good job as far as I can see". I'm a student ... all I can see is my university education being too costly for me to complete. I see my little sister, and 95% of the younger people living in my area trying to get into university having to work as check out chicks for the rest of their lives because they simply cannot afford higher education.

Why do Liberals seem dead set on making Australia a nation of dumbwitts who have to outsource everything and everyone because we dont have enough people trained at higher education levels to do it for ourselves?

Rich get richer and smarter, poor get poorer ... and poorer.

If we dont get killed first. :mad:

Everyone is all "he is doing a good job as far as I can see". I'm a student ... all I can see is my university education being too costly for me to complete. I see my little sister, and 95% of the younger people living in my area trying to get into university having to work as check out chicks for the rest of their lives because they simply cannot afford higher education.

Why do Liberals seem dead set on making Australia a nation of dumbwitts who have to outsource everything and everyone because we dont have enough people trained at higher education levels to do it for ourselves?

Rich get richer and smarter, poor get poorer ... and poorer.

If we dont get killed first. :mad:

I feel your pain...

(On A side note, I actually am also a checkout, umm, rooster? :p)

Why can't you pay for education?

HECS is an after you finish and start earning X, you start paying it off.

Or are you referring to the cost of living? I live in Adelaide, so our cost of living is ridiculously low compared to some of the eastern states so I never really saw that in great amounts. (personally i come from a wealthy family, but a fair few of my friends might be lucky to have families who barely make it up to middle class and have done fine).

Why do Liberals seem dead set on making Australia a nation of dumbwitts who have to outsource everything and everyone because we dont have enough people trained at higher education levels to do it for ourselves?

There's actually some hegemony involved, Rupert Murdoch came up with an idea a few decades back, where what western nations should do is "import" asian, middle east etc students and train them in not just their uni degrees but "western culture" before they go home. One poli once made it a bit too public in a campaign, but Howard has pretty much implemented his policy, just nowadays they don't talk about it.

As for outsourcing products, it's not really for skilled workers, we tend to outsource menial tasks that any idiot can d, because it's cheaper to pay an idiot in China than an idiot in Australia, hehe.

There's actually some hegemony involved, Rupert Murdoch came up with an idea a few decades back, where what western nations should do is "import" asian, middle east etc students and train them in not just their uni degrees but "western culture" before they go home. One poli once made it a bit too public in a campaign, but Howard has pretty much implemented his policy, just nowadays they don't talk about it.

True. Teaching asian exchange students how to drink Aussie style and the art of doing little work and getting good marks is quite fun and they undoubtebly put their newly acquired skills to good use in their home countries.

Anyhow, to get serious once more,

It's not so much the HECS loan that I have a problem with, its the fact that rich people can afford to take a substantial decrease in their entry scores, and others simply cannot afford it. It's totally unfair. I got in anyway, but so many others miss out, because they don't have the money.

To tell you the truth, I honestly didn't mind the "Real Latham"'s policies

By the real Latham, I mean the policies he was talking about in the months well before the election that weren't part of his package but he commented towards while very little of Australia was watching.

There was one policy that proposed to cut the top income tax bracket from 47 to 40% and offset it by increasing company tax from 30 to 36%. Whilst I personally think this particular policy is a step in the wrong direction, it at least indicated what he really thinks when noone is really watching.

He's actually really centre right economically.

Of course come election time, he had to throw off what he really thinks to start catering to left factions, and shifted back to the centre left, and it really looked like his policies hadn't had a great deal of work put into them, they weren't even properly costed which made them seem even more amateur.


yeh agreed, latham is quite right on economic issues, stay tuned for more on this front over the next 3 years i think

There aren't any new HECS places any more. There are "Commonwealth Supported Places" instead, and they're far bigger debts.

That being said, it seems that our Johnny's first betrayal is to the timber workers and other unionists who elected him, by instantly passing their industrial relations plans that they've been unable to do for the past gazillion years.

Taking bets as to whether Telstra or Medicare dies next!

I'm bumping this for later reference.

Telstra sale next please.

Don't care a great deal either way on medicare.

It's not so much the HECS loan that I have a problem with, its the fact that rich people can afford to take a substantial decrease in their entry scores, and others simply cannot afford it. It's totally unfair. I got in anyway, but so many others miss out, because they don't have the money.

Those places are pretty much places that otherwise wouldn't exist.

Thye government has a genuine reason to be hostile to the university system though, university's have had this plan of accepting thousands of first years, when they only expect maybe 25% to continue or finish. The reason they do this is they get indexed a % of the course, let's say your course costs $60000 over 4 years, now the uni will get $15k a year, when in reality the costs would probably be more realistically 10, 13, 17, 20. Some courses are even moreso slanted towards the top end.

Everyone is all "he is doing a good job as far as I can see". I'm a student ... all I can see is my university education being too costly for me to complete. I see my little sister, and 95% of the younger people living in my area trying to get into university having to work as check out chicks for the rest of their lives because they simply cannot afford higher education.

Why do Liberals seem dead set on making Australia a nation of dumbwitts who have to outsource everything and everyone because we dont have enough people trained at higher education levels to do it for ourselves?

Rich get richer and smarter, poor get poorer ... and poorer.

If we dont get killed first. :mad:

I'm sorry but you obviously have no clue about HECS. HECS is a government subsidised loan. You pay it back once you have completed your course and are employed and earning above a certain wage. You then pay a percentage of your wage towards repaying the loan. This means people can afford to go to university as they don't have to pay up front.

I'm sorry but you obviously have no clue about HECS. HECS is a government subsidised loan. You pay it back once you have completed your course and are employed and earning above a certain wage. You then pay a percentage of your wage towards repaying the loan. This means people can afford to go to university as they don't have to pay up front.
Provided you can get a deferred place. That depends on your university. Mine, fortunately, has heaps to spare, mostly because morons seem to think it's a bad university because of where it is. Oh well, good news for me. :)

The real difficulty at my uni is the compulsory S&A fees, it's $300/year that I have to find so that I can subsidise other, better off, students. That left-wing student union is really misguided. That and the cost of ordinary living, but I don't really expect other people to pay for that (if they want to though, I'm all for it! ;))

Provided you can get a deferred place. That depends on your university. Mine, fortunately, has heaps to spare, mostly because morons seem to think it's a bad university because of where it is. Oh well, good news for me. :)

The real difficulty at my uni is the compulsory S&A fees, it's $300/year that I have to find so that I can subsidise other, better off, students. That left-wing student union is really misguided. That and the cost of ordinary living, but I don't really expect other people to pay for that (if they want to though, I'm all for it! ;))

Yes, it depends on place availability. If you are granted a place at universtiy through the tertiary admissions centre the you pay back your debt once employed via HECS. HECS is government subsidised also.
Those that miss out on a place by those means have the option of doing a different course then transferring after the 1st year all under HECS or paying full fees up front.
Basically, if you obtain the entry levels to get into a course through the tertiary admissions centre and are accepted there is no such thing as not being able to afford it.
I agree with you on the compulsory Student Union fees. Its crap and no-one should be forced to pay for such a useless body to pursue their own political agendas.
AUSTUDY/ABSTUDY are designed to assist students with their living costs as well as miscellaneous course material.
I have heard a lot of uni students complaining they have no money yet I see so many out drinking 3 nights a week, smoking, babbling away on mobile phones etc etc. which all costs a lot of money that they could perhaps have spent on more important things.

Problem Is the Govt. wants to reduce the number of hecs places. Or at least thats the impression I got when I read the Education policy.

Which was quite a while ago...

Problem Is the Govt. wants to reduce the number of hecs places. Or at least thats the impression I got when I read the Education policy.

Which was quite a while ago...

I have not heard that but it could be true. Regardless, the "I can't afford to go to university" line does not wash if you have been accepted into university under HECS.

But then its going to be harder to do just that isnt it?

And what if you choose A degree that will lead to a low paying profession?
I think it makes education too money orientated.

But then its going to be harder to do just that isnt it?

And what if you choose A degree that will lead to a low paying profession?
I think it makes education too money orientated.

*is an arts student

:blush:

But then its going to be harder to do just that isnt it?

And what if you choose A degree that will lead to a low paying profession?
I think it makes education too money orientated.

Well why should the government subsidise university degrees that provide nothing back in the way of job readiness? The problem is not the number of places, it is the number of bullshit courses that waste money and resources. Courses in some fields of the arts, humanities, history etc should be majority full fee paying places to free up HECS places for courses that will return something to society.

Because the government is supposed to serve you. You aint supposed to serve the government. Otherwise your just a slave.

Just because your profession doesn't generate a lot of disposable income (btw, lets not confuse the government with the economy here) doesn't mean you cant contribute to society.

Anything that takes years to learn has got to be a skill valuable to society. Even if it doesn't make you a cash cow.

Because the government is supposed to serve you. You aint supposed to serve the government. Otherwise your just a slave.

Just because your profession doesn't generate a lot of disposable income (btw, lets not confuse the government with the economy here) doesn't mean you cant contribute to society.

Anything that takes years to learn has got to be a skill valuable to society. Even if it doesn't make you a cash cow.

Where did I measure anything by disposable income?

If the community, through their taxes, subsidises your tertiary education (as happens under the HECS scheme) then is the community not entitled to reap some benefit for this?
Why should the taxpayers fund someone to study something that is little more than a hobby? Its not about money, its about repaying society for subsidising your education. If the education undertaken is not going to produce any benefit to society then why should it be funded by taxpayer's money?
I would rather arts, humanities and history courses have reduced HECS places freeing up more for the fields of science, economics, medicine etc. That is the point I was making.

Isnt being rich about being decadent? If you have a lot of money you want to enjoy the finer things in life, eg. the Humanities.

Isnt being rich about being decadent? If you have a lot of money you want to enjoy the finer things in life, eg. the Humanities.

Are you even reading my posts?

Isnt being rich about being decadent? If you have a lot of money you want to enjoy the finer things in life, eg. the Humanities.

he didn't say get rid of them, he said....

Courses in some fields of the arts, humanities, history etc should be majority full fee paying places to free up HECS places for courses that will return something to society.

he didn't say get rid of them, he said....

Thank you, nice to know someone is actually reading what I am posting. :)

I CANNOT BELIEVE that there are people out there advocating that arts/humanities courses are made majority full-fee paying. :headbang:
I mean, I'm doing a Med/Arts degree and the extra year is bloody well worth it! The "Arts gives nothing back to society" argument is bullshit. I mean, at my uni (Melbourne) arts advertises itself as "the critical faculty" and I totally agree. So often I see other science (particularly Med) students with a poor understanding or little interest in the world around them, or in thinking critically about ANYTHING!
Teachers, social workers, journalists, academics, artists - all people who do degrees in the humanities. And they're worthless?

By making such courses only available to the wealthy, social stratification will only be exagerrated. Students will not be taught to question and think critically. We will become a nation of drones. (moreso :P)

And our student union (Liberals) voted to pass the fee increases!

And I think Labor lost in such a landslide due in part to Simon Crean's negative influence. They were still recovering, and having him as shadow treasurer probably didn't help. That and the ludicrous scare campaign by the government.

Also it puzzles me how the government can claim a "mandate" to do whatever the hell they want when they only got 40% o the vote. And they didn't even campaign on issues, they campaigned on fear and smear campaigns. So people were hardly aware of their policies- and now we're stuck with them. Thriving democracy...

I CANNOT BELIEVE that there are people out there advocating that arts/humanities courses are made majority full-fee paying. :headbang:
I mean, I'm doing a Med/Arts degree and the extra year is bloody well worth it! The "Arts gives nothing back to society" argument is bullshit. I mean, at my uni (Melbourne) arts advertises itself as "the critical faculty" and I totally agree. So often I see other science (particularly Med) students with a poor understanding or little interest in the world around them, or in thinking critically about ANYTHING!
Teachers, social workers, journalists, academics, artists - all people who do degrees in the humanities. And they're worthless?

Not all are useless (hence my saying "Courses in some fields of the arts, humanities, history etc" in a previous post), but to offer such numbers of places at subsidised rates while we have shortages of nurses and doctors really amazes me. I can't help thinking that taking away some of the subsidised places from arts and humanities and opening up more places in the fields of nursing, science, engineering and medicine would have a far more positive impact on our society. The taxpayer would see much more fruit for their investment.

By making such courses only available to the wealthy, social stratification will only be exagerrated. Students will not be taught to question and think critically. We will become a nation of drones. (moreso :P)

Bullshit. You don't need a university degree to think critically. Unless your idea of thinking critically is to sit in a room full of like-minded people and listen to a lecturer preach his political rhetoric critical thinking?

And our student union (Liberals) voted to pass the fee increases!

I am against compulsory union membership for that reason. Unions serve themselves, not the people they claim to represent. I would like to see proof of your claims that the student union is made up of members of the Liberal party.

And I think Labor lost in such a landslide due in part to Simon Crean's negative influence. They were still recovering, and having him as shadow treasurer probably didn't help. That and the ludicrous scare campaign by the government.

No, they lost because John Howard has done a great job as Prime Minister and his government a fine job of running our nation. You, and many of your left-wing friends, do not realise that stability is a powerful tool in an election. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Also it puzzles me how the government can claim a "mandate" to do whatever the hell they want when they only got 40% o the vote. And they didn't even campaign on issues, they campaigned on fear and smear campaigns. So people were hardly aware of their policies- and now we're stuck with them. Thriving democracy...

They claim a mandate if they have a majority in the Senate and House of Reps which it looks like they might now have.