NationStates Jolt Archive

ok i was wondering i personally have no religious beliefs but instead is searching for some and i saw witchcraft and did some research. Well I found out that the church is very against it but i wonder why i asked a very religious friend that and he said "because the bible sys it is wrong" then i asked why and got a shrug and asked if i still rooted for the chiefs so you religious people why are you against wicca and other witch craft even the ones that are against pain and suffering.

Because the Bible says it's wrong.
So, how about them Lakers?

ok i was wondering i personally have no religious beliefs but instead is searching for some and i saw witchcraft and did some research. Well I found out that the church is very against it but i wonder why i asked a very religious friend that and he said "because the bible sys it is wrong" then i asked why and got a shrug and asked if i still rooted for the chiefs so you religious people why are you against wicca and other witch craft even the ones that are against pain and suffering.
DF? SS-?

Because the Bible says it's wrong.
So, how about them Lakers?
lol but why is it wrong and i'm a Chiefs fan go kc

Don't look at me. I prefer voodoo. :)

lol but why is it wrong and i'm a Chiefs fan go kc
*shrugs*
It didn't rain today.

*shrugs*
It didn't rain today.
Yes it did.

Don't look at me. I prefer voodoo. :)
lol i'm just looking for a religion and you can go to barnes and noble and get voodoo dolls at least around here

Yes it did.
No. It did not. I prayed to Lord Jesus and Jesus kept it dry with his Jesus magic.

WITCH PRIDE!!!

No. It did not. I prayed to Lord Jesus and Jesus kept it dry with his Jesus magic.
http://image.weather.com/images/maps/current/curwx_277x187.jpg
Another disagreement between religion and science. :(

lol i'm just looking for a religion
Have you ever considerd the Jedi'ism?
http://www.jediism.org/

Yes it did.
it did here... but anyways why is witchcraft bad.

And don't worry Kumi, real witches aren't the evil forces of darkness that they are portrayed as. Well, there are some, but they aren't true witches then. True witches adhere to code of not being evil and hurting people and deamon worshipping and that crap.

Have you ever considerd the Jedi'ism?
http://www.jediism.org/
i like star wars but not that much lol.

it did here... but anyways why is witchcraft bad.
You could try a Yahoo or MSN x-tian chatroom. They'll tell you why. After they performed an excorcism. Quit funny.

im a wicca and i think pple are afraid of witchcraft becease they dont understand it. ignornace breeds fear. there is a passage in the front of the bible that says god doesnt like people who sacrafice there children to different gods or become nercomancers. i think its because those days there werent religions like wicca against hurting people. the magic those days was like druids who burned a man alive every year.

And don't worry Kumi, real witches aren't the evil forces of darkness that they are portrayed as. Well, there are some, but they aren't true witches then. True witches adhere to code of not being evil and hurting people and deamon worshipping and that crap.
well from my research it seems alot of people confuse satanism and witchcraft i was just curious why the bible says it's bad.

well from my research it seems alot of people confuse satanism and witchcraft i was just curious why the bible says it's bad.
Apparently alot of people confuse Satanism and devil worshipping as well.

You could try a Yahoo or MSN x-tian chatroom. They'll tell you why. After they performed an excorcism. Quit funny.
yeah but not all witches do that thats like saying all muslims want to kill people.

yeah but not all witches do that thats like saying all muslims want to kill people.
:confused: Eeeeh...??? :confused:

im a wicca and i think pple are afraid of witchcraft becease they dont understand it. ignornace breeds fear. there is a passage in the front of the bible that says god doesnt like people who sacrafice there children to different gods or become nercomancers. i think its because those days there werent religions like wicca against hurting people. the magic those days was like druids who burned a man alive every year.

Exactly.

yeah but not all witches do that thats like saying all muslims want to kill people.

You mean not all of them do??? *Just kidding

:confused: Eeeeh...??? :confused:
i mean not all wiccans must be bad to generalize like that is to say that all arab muslims are terrorists and not all are a few are but not all.

Take Wicca/Witchcraft a lot more seriously if... you know... there was actually an unbroken tie to earlier practioners.

Bascially, the en vogue Wicca/Witchcraft thang is a Barnes & Noble consipiracy to sell books. :p

You mean not all of them do??? *Just kidding
lol you'd be surprised how many people generalize like that though

lol you'd be surprised how many people generalize like that though

Yeah I know. And I love the people who can't tell Arabs from Indians. Or when they pronounce it A-rabs instead of Air-abs. A-rabs just sounds more derogatory. Its that hard "A".

Take Wicca/Witchcraft a lot more seriously if... you know... there was actually an unbroken tie to earlier practioners.

Bascially, the en vogue Wicca/Witchcraft thang is a Barnes & Noble consipiracy to sell books. :p
what do you mean by unbroken tie

Yeah I know. And I love the people who can't tell Arabs from Indians. Or when they pronounce it A-rabs instead of Air-abs. A-rabs just sounds more derogatory. Its that hard "A".
lol yeah i hate it when people generalize like that

lol i'm just looking for a religion and you can go to barnes and noble and get voodoo dolls at least around here
They're worthless unless you make them yourself.

It's because witches are different and they aren't Christian. They also worship other gods.

They're worthless unless you make them yourself.

It's because witches are different and they aren't Christian. They also worship other gods.
that's why i probably won't go for christianity because they don't like other religions even if the other religion isn't against them but i could be wrong.

They're worthless unless you make them yourself.

It's because witches are different and they aren't Christian. They also worship other gods.

Not all worship other gods. There are some witches who simply add the Craft to their current belief system. I haven't fully converted from being a Christian.

Not all worship other gods. There are some witches who simply add the Craft to their current belief system. I haven't fully converted from being a Christian.
never knew that must have a gap in my research

They way I've been taught Wicca, the Lord and Lady (God) have no definite being. As I heard, God is like a diamond with several faces. My interpretation is the Christian God.

never knew that must have a gap in my research

You just not have seen a place that said that. But its true. I'm proof.

They way I've been taught Wicca, the Lord and Lady (God) have no definite being. As I heard, God is like a diamond with several faces. My interpretation is the Christian God.
hm ok i had a big gaap lol

hm ok i had a big gaap lol

LOL, indeed.

Witches and wicca are under Satans spell. It is a growing cult that is modled after the ancient druids and other pagans. Then when they claim that they worship jesus, they are perverting christianity. I believ that the true religion of Christ (God) is Catholicism.

That may not be everyone's view, but thats how I was taught.

Witches and wicca are under Satans spell. It is a growing cult that is modled after the ancient druids and other pagans. Then when they claim that they worship jesus, they are perverting christianity. I believ that the true religion of Christ (God) is Catholicism.
how do you know that

Witches and wicca are under Satans spell. It is a growing cult that is modled after the ancient druids and other pagans. Then when they claim that they worship jesus, they are perverting christianity. I believ that the true religion of Christ (God) is Catholicism.

We have nothing to do with Satan. Don't even start your non-Catholic bashing here CR.

how do you know that

He doesn't. He's just intolerant to anyone else's beliefs if they don't follow his.

He doesn't. He's just intolerant to anyone else's beliefs if they don't follow his.
see i'm just searching looking t each religion closly and trying to find which one i think is bestfor me it may not be best for everyone else.

how do you know that
It is official church teaching.

It is official church teaching.

Yes. Your church. Other people have beliefs CR, that doesn't mean yours is the only one.

woah. i must first state that i am christian, episcopal, to be exact. i love to hear and learn about other religions, particularly hinduism and wicca. i have some very good friends that are both. i must disagree with whomever stated that catholocism is the one way to worship. what if there was a council of gods? like, our God was htere, and all the hindi gods, and buddhist gods, and all the goddesses too.i mean, wouldn't that make sense? all the gods working together, sort of like a democracy.

sorry if i'm being weird, i'm just at a point in my faith where i question everything. literally, everything. kinda like, why do christians (specifically episcos) idolize the cross. i mean, we're supposed to be a religion without idols, right? *sigh* anyways. wicca is an amazing religion. do whatever you feel is right for yourself at this point in time. you could even be good and look at the future, even thought that is incredibly difficult. just take it in stride, ponder, and then touch back down to earth.

see i'm just searching looking t each religion closly and trying to find which one i think is bestfor me it may not be best for everyone else.
Don't know if you want to try catholicism, but this is a good website about it
catholic.com

It is official church teaching.
lol but how do you know that's right see i research both sides before making an opinion and the church woud have a biased opinion lol

Yes. Your church. Other people have beliefs CR, that doesn't mean yours is the only one.
It isn't the only Church, but the Right church.
what is your religion crossman. More specificly beliefs and denomination, just to refresh my memory.

Kumi, I have researched both sides.

Don't know if you want to try catholicism, but this is a good website about it
catholic.com
i don't know if i like a religion that states all other religions are bad but i may be wrong if i am please correct me

woah. i must first state that i am christian, episcopal, to be exact. i love to hear and learn about other religions, particularly hinduism and wicca. i have some very good friends that are both. i must disagree with whomever stated that catholocism is the one way to worship. what if there was a council of gods? like, our God was htere, and all the hindi gods, and buddhist gods, and all the goddesses too.i mean, wouldn't that make sense? all the gods working together, sort of like a democracy.

sorry if i'm being weird, i'm just at a point in my faith where i question everything. literally, everything. kinda like, why do christians (specifically episcos) idolize the cross. i mean, we're supposed to be a religion without idols, right? *sigh* anyways. wicca is an amazing religion. do whatever you feel is right for yourself at this point in time. you could even be good and look at the future, even thought that is incredibly difficult. just take it in stride, ponder, and then touch back down to earth.

Finally!!! A true Christian, who follows the teachings of tolerance and acceptance.

Thank you.

i don't know if i like a religion that states all other religions are bad but i may be wrong if i am please correct me
We do not say that all other religions are bad. Look around on that site. A LOT of info.

Witches and wicca are under Satans spell. It is a growing cult that is modled after the ancient druids and other pagans. Then when they claim that they worship jesus, they are perverting christianity. I believ that the true religion of Christ (God) is Catholicism.
Wiccans != Satanists you idiot.

Perverting Christianity? The religion is already perverted and twisted enough, I don't think it can be twisted anymore.

I can understand Christians adding craft to their beliefs, an interesting concept.

It isn't the only Church, but the Right church.
what is your religion crossman. More specificly beliefs and denomination, just to refresh my memory.

Kumi, I have researched both sides.
what did you research and what did you find and what were your sources :confused:

It isn't the only Church, but the Right church.
what is your religion crossman. More specificly beliefs and denomination, just to refresh my memory.

Kumi, I have researched both sides.

I already said. Christian-wise I'm a presbyterian, though I don't believe that is the only true way. I'm also a member of the wiccan faith. Those are my beliefs.

And if you had researched both sides you'd know that Wicca has nothing to do with Satan. Wicca does not believe in Satan.

what did you research and what did you find and what were your sources :confused:
I have been Catholic all my life. I researched primarily from that website and for the other point of view, simply from looking around. Cant remember exact sites. I WILL NEVER CONVERT from the religion founded by Christ.

Wiccans != Satanists you idiot.

Perverting Christianity? The religion is already perverted and twisted enough, I don't think it can be twisted anymore.
umm how is it twisted i on't see your view in this i know a little and it doesn't seem that bad

We do not say that all other religions are bad. Look around on that site. A LOT of info.

But you say all others are wrong and only yours is right. What happened to tolerance and accpetance of others that Jesus tlaked about?

Just get out of here with your "hollier-than-thou" rhetoric. Kumi is looking for people to help him, not force him.

I have been Catholic all my life. I researched primarily from that website and for the other point of view, simply from looking around. Cant remember exact sites. I WILL NEVER CONVERT from the religion founded by Christ.
ok i don't want to convert you i'm simply trying to find the religion best for ME.

I have been Catholic all my life. I researched primarily from that website and for the other point of view, simply from looking around. Cant remember exact sites. I WILL NEVER CONVERT from the religion founded by Christ.

Ah yes, you researched from the Catholic site. Try some non-Catholic research.

Wicca does not believe in Satan.
That is one of satans tricks, to get people NOT to believe in him, so you arn't aware of him, giving him control.
Crossman, do you believe in satan, the prince of darknbess. i believe in him, but I will never follow him listen to him.
GLORY TO GOD!

And I am trying to help Kumi.

so far i've looked up jewish christianity and wcca next is buddism unless i decide one of those 3 are the best for me

Ah yes, you researched from the Catholic site. Try some non-Catholic research.
READ CAREFULLY, I said i researched the other viewpoint by looking around. I meant searching on google and such and on protestant sites, but cant remember which ones.

umm how is it twisted i on't see your view in this i know a little and it doesn't seem that bad
http://www.freewebs.com/see_the_truth/Revelation.html
http://www.geocities.com/darkistrein666/buybull.html

That is one of satans tricks, to get people NOT to believe in him, so you arn't aware of him, giving him control.
Crossman, do you believe in satan, the prince of darknbess. i believe in him, but I will never follow him listen to him.
GLORY TO GOD!

And I am trying to help Kumi.

Look, I am sick of you bashing my beliefs. Wiccans do not believe in Satan, they do not put a face on evil in that way because to name it gives evil power. I do not follow Satan.

And you are not helping. You are bad mouthing other religions becasue you say yours is the only correct one.

READ CAREFULLY, I said i researched the other viewpoint by looking around. I meant searching on google and such and on protestant sites, but cant remember which ones.

And if you went to any real wiccan source you would know that they do not worship Satan.

READ CAREFULLY, I said i researched the other viewpoint by looking around. I meant searching on google and such and on protestant sites, but cant remember which ones.
o and one thing that bugs me about chrstianity is it possible the guy who wrote the bible might have twisted to his own pleasure just a hypothetical question and i always wondered that.

Cherry Ridge, we aren't asking you to abandon your faith, we are asking you to stop being such a narrow-minded zealot. So you've researched Protestanism and Cathilocism, what else? What about researching all the religions you hate and try to see their point of view.

Cherry Ridge, we aren't asking you to abandon your faith, we are asking you to stop being such a narrow-minded zealot. So you've researched Protestanism and Cathilocism, what else? What about researching all the religions you hate and try to see their point of view.

Don't even bother reasoning with him. Its like trying to knock over the Great Wall of China with 2 raw eggs.

Don't even bother reasoning with him. Its like trying to knock over the Great Wall of China with 2 raw eggs.
that's a keeper lol

the guy who wrote the bible might have twisted to his own pleasure just a hypothetical question and i always wondered that.
The people that wrote the bible were inspired by God.

Don't even bother reasoning with him. Its like trying to knock over the Great Wall of China with 2 raw eggs.
I was answering his statement. I wasn't trying to reasion with him, sadly it won't work, I've tried it many times.

Hey Cherry Ridge, here's a site you'll love, it's as bigoted and hateful as you.
http://www.therefinersfire.org/

The people that wrote the bible were inspired by God.
but hypothetically could they it's a good question and it's been bugging me hmm or maybe i need to read the bible i lan on dooing that one day if i can't find the right religion along with other religions bibles

but hypothetically could they it's a good question and it's been bugging me hmm or maybe i need to read the bible i lan on dooing that one day if i can't find religion
There are a lot of sites providing information on the good parts, so either read it or get both perspectives. I personally think it was inspired by Jehova, by the fact it is so terrible and violent as shown in the links of my previous post.

That is one of satans tricks, to get people NOT to believe in him, so you arn't aware of him, giving him control.
Crossman, do you believe in satan, the prince of darknbess. i believe in him, but I will never follow him listen to him.
It's one of Santa's tricks, too.

There are a lot of sites providing information on the good parts, so either read it or get both perspectives. I personally think it was inspired by Jehova, by the fact it is so terrible and violent as shown in the links of my previous post.
if i read the bible i'd fine tooth and comb it lol i know me when i do something i'm dedicated i go overboard

It's one of Santa's tricks, too.

I knew that fat man as behind it all!!!

I was answering his statement. I wasn't trying to reasion with him, sadly it won't work, I've tried it many times.

Hey Cherry Ridge, here's a site you'll love, it's as bigoted and hateful as you.
http://www.therefinersfire.org/
I don't like it. it is by a messianic Jew, not in communion with Rome. I do not hate other religions. I dislike their theology. I don't dislike they people.

I don't like it. it is by a messianic Jew, not in communion with Rome. I do not hate other religions. I dislike their theology. I don't dislike they people.
yeah but like i was wondering why some people hate wiccans

I don't like it. it is by a messianic Jew, not in communion with Rome. I do not hate other religions. I dislike their theology. I don't dislike they people.

You dislike their theologies, well, duh, therefore you dislike the religion.

I dislike the religion BUT NOT the people

ok i have to go lift weights but i'll be back tomorrow to see this and i have a question do wiccans dislike thosewho dislike them it's important one to me

I dislike the religion BUT NOT the people

Well, then don't say you don't hate other religions, because you're saying you don't like them. Same thing. You'd rather there were only your religion, right?

ok i have to go lift weights but i'll be back tomorrow to see this and i have a question do wiccans dislike thosewho dislike them it's important one to me

Yeah, i got to go too. Talk you later, Kumi.

The bible teaches that drawing power, spiritually speaking, from somewhere other than God is bad; That worshipping anything other than God is bad. That doesnt make witches any worse than buddhists or muslims, but we do believe that we're right and they are wrong.
Any christian that expresses those beliefs with hatred towards anyone probably isnt a christian at all.
The idea of them being satanists is an often confusing reference to the christian belief that the prince of the world and its ways is the devil. Anything that is anti-god, in our minds, gets placed int he pro-world(devil) category. Some people get hung up on the satan part when really the world can muck it up quite readily on its own. I know I can.
Wicca, as a religion, is a very new thing. It does draw from older religions but it does so artificially, selectively. Its kind of the pagan version of mormons :) No offense to either side. There are some elements of the religion that could be argued as similar to true satanism, but nothing that could be used to make any real link between wicca and the devil beyond the lack of God making it of the world and thus under the influence of the devil.

This:
"what if there was a council of gods? like, our God was htere, and all the hindi gods, and buddhist gods, and all the goddesses too.i mean, wouldn't that make sense? all the gods working together, sort of like a democracy."
Is utterly contrary to the core of christianity. Its a popular new age center for unifying religions, I know lots of potential christians who've gone that route, but its tantamount to telling the christian God "I believe you're there but I dont buy a word you're saying."

I've got to go too.

To The Author,

Much to my dismay you may have encountered some religious zealots who respond to your post with their ignorant banter. These people who consider themselves "Christians", do not represent what Christians biblically should be about. If you are (and I'm assuming that you are) searching for answers, then I can offer you this. The reason that many people consider witches and wiccan to be be evil, is that they take what they heard someone say and jump overboard. I wont lie to you and say that I don't believe it's wrong or evil but let's look at the core of many people's faith. (Myself included). Basically sin is not following God's word. I believe that if you use some power that is not given naturally, and is not from God, it is wrong. I don't say that to push it on anyone but, that is me. I say this because having said power would require you to get it from another source. I believe God is supposed to be your source and so not relying on him is spitting in his face. (Again I say this is what I believe, not stated that you should believe it as fact.) This belief however does not mean that Christians should turn up their noses or condemn others. Jesus' whole message was about love. We are suppose to show a godly lifestyle and talk to people about him, not force it on them, no matter what anyone says. If they make the choice, great, if they don't then that's their decision. GTG, but if you have any questions send me a 'gram. I hope this helped some, Uncommon wisdom.

crossman I don't know about what wiccas belive but if they belive in channeling spirts (which I don't know if they do or not), aviod it vigoursly the human spirts are resting with the demon spirts in what ever god has until the of the world and if you actually mange to summon one a demon might get thru with it (it would not pop up screaming and eat you it would posses someone or thing my mom knows people who were doing Séances for fun the table got up and chased them scary thought hun :eek: )

That is one of satans tricks, to get people NOT to believe in him, so you arn't aware of him, giving him control.

:rolleyes: I have heard this argument so many times that I doubt the sanity of anyone who uses it. How paranoid can you get? Fear is the only way your mind can be chained. I pity you, CR, honestly, I do. :(

Kumi, consider that you don't even have to be a part of any religion. What are you looking for, specifically? In my opinion, religion offers community, and doctrine that you can fall back on when you doubt beliefs, which is sometimes a bad thing if they need to change. It doesn't always offer spirituality, which is a different thing entirely. This is obvious when you look at some xtians who simply go to church because they were taught to.

As to why some christians and catholics hate wiccans, there is no justification for hate, even -if- the bible says that witches burn in hell. Their own religion says this, but they never take heart. They are simply afraid.

ok i was wondering i personally have no religious beliefs but instead is searching for some and i saw witchcraft and did some research. Well I found out that the church is very against it but i wonder why i asked a very religious friend that and he said "because the bible sys it is wrong" then i asked why and got a shrug and asked if i still rooted for the chiefs so you religious people why are you against wicca and other witch craft even the ones that are against pain and suffering.
This link might help explain it. It's a book called the Malleus Maleficarum (http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/mmtoc.html) published in 1487. It's a little out-dated. ;)

It went through nineteen editions in the next 300 years, and was the textbook for the Inquisition. It was responsible for the persecution, torture and murder by burning or hanging of thousands of women, including Joan of Arc, who were named as witches who had consorted with the devil.

The Inquisition fused together three categories of persecuted people: witches, heretics and the insane. Many of the accused women were mentally ill, and since at that time the mentally ill were classified as being possessed by the devil, the cause of their possession was, inevitably, 'preoccupation with sex'.

~The Myth of the Goddess, Evolution of an Image

I have been Catholic all my life. I researched primarily from that website and for the other point of view, simply from looking around. Cant remember exact sites. I WILL NEVER CONVERT from the religion founded by Christ.

Hey, did you notice there was a discussion going on in this thread?

It may have eluded your notice, but there were some people talking about a topic already, before you decided to go on a preach-rampage... and, as far as I have seen, nobody has tried to convert YOU, but you have already made a direct attempt to try to convert Kumi.

I challenge your assertion of research. Just 'looking around' doesn't do it, for me. That means you have seen the surface of a topic maybe... but from the surface, christianity is all about Jews murdering Canaanites, and people getting nailed to crosses.

I personally APPLAUD Kumi's attempt to finf his/her path... and I will be just as happy if that path leads to Catholicism, Hinduism, Islam, Wicca or Atheism... but I think he/she should be able to make that decision.

ok i was wondering i personally have no religious beliefs but instead is searching for some and i saw witchcraft and did some research. Well I found out that the church is very against it but i wonder why i asked a very religious friend that and he said "because the bible sys it is wrong" then i asked why and got a shrug and asked if i still rooted for the chiefs so you religious people why are you against wicca and other witch craft even the ones that are against pain and suffering.

Okay... most of the 'hatred' by the Christian churches, against Wicca and Witchcraft, stems from scripture.

Passages like: Acts 8:11 "And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries".

The problem here, is that the translation is erroneous - and probably deliberately so, to justify persecutions. The word describing 'bewitched' in Greek is actually "Existemi ", which basically translates as "to astonish". So - the scripture doesn't actually say that people were 'bewitched' by 'sorcery'... a closer translation would be 'astonished by magic tricks'.

Passages like: Galatians 5:20 "Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies".

The problem here, is that the word translated as "witchcraft" is "Pharmakeia"... the root of the word Pharmacy, and means administering drugs or poisons. Obviously, administering poisons is not good, but the Church didn't want THAT interpretation, as it didn't mesh with their agenda.

The Old Testament also expressly condemns witchcraft "Kesheph" and witches "Kashaph"... but, once again, we are having translation issues. What the scripture is alluding to, is the use of 'spirits' for divination... which is forbidden (in the Old Testament) along with all other forms of divination (necromancy, for example)

e.g. Micah 5:12 "And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers"

Which is, of course, ironic... since Joseph is famous for divining from dreams, and the Wise Men found the place of Jesus' birth through astrology...

A THOROUGH reading of scripture (rather than a lazy look over whatever translation seems acceptable) reveals that there is actually nothing specifically against Wicca or Witchcraft.

Of course, the bible does say not to worship other gods... but the Koran says the same thing, as do most religions...

In the interest of full disclosure, this broadcast has been brought to you by an ex-christian Atheist.

If you have any more questions, or you want more clarification... either post it here, or feel free to TG me.

Okay... most of the 'hatred' by the Christian churches, against Wicca and Witchcraft, stems from scripture.

Passages like: Acts 8:11 "And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries".

The problem here, is that the translation is erroneous - and probably deliberately so, to justify persecutions. The word describing 'bewitched' in Greek is actually "Existemi ", which basically translates as "to astonish". So - the scripture doesn't actually say that people were 'bewitched' by 'sorcery'... a closer translation would be 'astonished by magic tricks'.

Passages like: Galatians 5:20 "Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies".

The problem here, is that the word translated as "witchcraft" is "Pharmakeia"... the root of the word Pharmacy, and means administering drugs or poisons. Obviously, administering poisons is not good, but the Church didn't want THAT interpretation, as it didn't mesh with their agenda.

The Old Testament also expressly condemns witchcraft "Kesheph" and witches "Kashaph"... but, once again, we are having translation issues. What the scripture is alluding to, is the use of 'spirits' for divination... which is forbidden (in the Old Testament) along with all other forms of divination (necromancy, for example)

e.g. Micah 5:12 "And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers"

Which is, of course, ironic... since Joseph is famous for divining from dreams, and the Wise Men found the place of Jesus' birth through astrology...

A THOROUGH reading of scripture (rather than a lazy look over whatever translation seems acceptable) reveals that there is actually nothing specifically against Wicca or Witchcraft.

Of course, the bible does say not to worship other gods... but the Koran says the same thing, as do most religions...

In the interest of full disclosure, this broadcast has been brought to you by an ex-christian Atheist.

If you have any more questions, or you want more clarification... either post it here, or feel free to TG me.

At the risk of not staying on topic with this thread and being admonished as above:
I bow to your knowledge. (Sort of, I don't want to come off like a wus).
I've been reading a lot about esoteric traditions both B.C.E. and C.E. while at the same time skimming parts of the Bible. The problem is I have the absolute worst translation ever. I came to the conclusion a few months ago that I have to just learn ancient Greek, Coptic and Hebrew and get my hands on some very early translations. Is that how you go about it, if I may be so brave to ask? Suggest any books, links, etc? Reply or TG, but I'm off to sleep very soon. Thx.

A.M.D.G.

No, that was just a joke. Although giving to the greater glory of God is certainly worthwhile, this particular post is dedicated to man, not God.

No one, male or female, can ever truly escape their religious upbrining. In some way we are all influenced by the beliefs and traditions of our parents. Some rebel against it, some embrace it, some try to ignore it and find their own path, but it is always there in the back of our minds. Sometimes we are aware of it, sometimes not.

Both my parents were nominally protestant. Neither were very religious but they would go to church every now and then. Baptisms, confirmations of friends or relatives, marriages, christmas and just when they felt like it. Of course they would take us children with them, too.

When I was twelve, someone asked me if I believed in God. I said "no", fairly unhesitatingly. When I was fifteen, I got the same question. This time, I replied that I was agnostic, that I really didn't know if there was a God or not, and if there was, I did not know what the right way to worship him/her/it was.

A few years ago I would have given the same answer. Today? I don't know. John Paul II said that someone who says that they don't know or don't care if God is real or not is not agnostic, but an out-and-out atheist. He said that if you believed that there was even a chance God might exist you would care a great deal. The first time I read that I saw logical flaws in it, simple enough errors for a devout Catholic to make. Simply the assumption that Catholics are correct in their beliefs about the nature of God and the afterlife.

Since my youth I have been thinking a lot. Like any human, I spend every waking second thinking, per defenition of "waking" and "living" and "human". 'Since my youth' my foot, I'm still young. But now... I still know next to nothing about the nature of God. But I am getting more and more convinced that there is one, for a certain value of "is".

When I pray to my God, the answer I get is "You have a mind, use it". Sometimes it is "You have arms and legs, use them". The prophets in service of my God are not Moses or Abraham or Paul. They are Galileo and Newton and Fermi, Aristoteles, Liebniz and Freud. My religion is not science. Science is a tool, nothing else. Nor is it philosophy, that too is just a tool.

I don't know if my religion is 'correct'. I don't know if any religion is 'correct'.

I do know that every major and just about all minor religions think theirs is the 'true' religion, and that what they believe is correct. I also know that the beliefs of all of those have changed over the years and centuries. Once catholics had it as part of their scipture that the world was flat and that it was heresy to suggest anything else. Once catholics believed that the entire universe (such as they knew it) was created by God in six days. Once they believed that the Earth revolved around the sun.

I'm not attacking catholics. All Christians believed the same, as did the Jews and Muslims. Probably most of the other major religions too.

I will never hold any authorative source over the evidence of my own eyes and the ideas generated by my own mind. If those things one day tells me that the King James translation of the Bible is correct in every particular, I will become Lutheran or some other type of Protestant. If I ever am convinced that a fetus with no neural structure can be a being in its own right rather than merely part of its mother's body, I will begin to campaign for criminalising abortions. Maybe that makes me a flip-flopper. Maybe it makes me dishonest. Maybe it makes me a blasphemer or a heretic or unbeliever.

I don't know much about Wiccans or witches. I don't know much about the differences between satanism and devil-worship. I don't know much about the differences between Goths and nihilists. I don't know the differences between a lutheran or an episcopalist. I don't know the difference between the Flacian and Philippist variations of Lutheranism. But I know that all those people (with the exception of the nihilists) can look themselves in the mirror in the morning and be proud of themselves because they are honest with themselves and their cause.

If a Wiccan tells me "I do not worship the devil" and a catholic tells me "Yes they do, don't believe them" I know who I will believe. If a Wiccan tells me "Catholics promote cannibalism by symbolically eating the body of Christ" and a Catholic tells me "No we don't, don't believe them" again I know whom I believe.

Don't tell other people what their beliefs are.

@Kumi: Maybe its just me, but if you actively look around deciding which religion to believe in, you might not need one. Faith is a crutch to better cope with the things we do not understand. If you dont need crutches you dont need to decide if you want them to be blue, red or yellow. ;)
Of course i am just trying to convert you, come into the folds of the Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic (http://apatheticagnostic.com/).
"We don't know and we don't care.!

At the risk of not staying on topic with this thread and being admonished as above:
I bow to your knowledge. (Sort of, I don't want to come off like a wus).
I've been reading a lot about esoteric traditions both B.C.E. and C.E. while at the same time skimming parts of the Bible. The problem is I have the absolute worst translation ever. I came to the conclusion a few months ago that I have to just learn ancient Greek, Coptic and Hebrew and get my hands on some very early translations. Is that how you go about it, if I may be so brave to ask? Suggest any books, links, etc? Reply or TG, but I'm off to sleep very soon. Thx.

The first thing I would suggest is also the most straight-forward. If the bible is the text you want to study, read it. read it all, from cover to cover, and make notes of anything that jumps out at you each time. This will happen every time, even with a lousy translation... first you'll spot something like the number of animals (of each type) on the ark, then you'll spot where it looks like Adam is a hermaphrodite, then something like the fact that David kills Goliath twice, or that Saul commits suicide AND gets murdered by an Amalekite...

Once you've got a good feeling for the text (you'll know when this is, when you start to pick up the 'style' of the authors of different sections), then you can start looking into translation. For these purposes, you should try to get hold of alternate language bibles, which are even available online. I would also advise that you get something like Strong's Concordance (this kind of thing is also available online, see "Strong's concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon": http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html )

After that, it's just a matter of comparing what is on the page with what you've been TOLD is on the page...

Learning as much Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew as you can also helps.

It doesn't stop there, though (or, it shouldn't), since, like any other text, even the Hebrew version is written in the manner of it's day. Some meanings change over time (sometimes you can pick these out - like Satan or "HaSatan" changing from a 'rank' of an Angel, to the name of an angel)... and some are examples of the colour of the language (think of some of the words you use today, that actually mean nothing like the use you put them to).

I advise just keeping on reading around the subject, and inspiration can come from the strangest places... some of my keenest insights were inspired by an old book I found "Things In Which It Is Impossible For God To Lie", published in 1965, by the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society of Pennsylvania.

There is no such thing as a 'bad' source, really... it's just wht you make of it.

And, finally (although I do advocate getting a good feeling for the texts first) there are sources that people have already constructed, analysing the bible, quran, etc. Strangely, Isaac Asimov has authored a 'concordance'... but some resources are available online... a particularly good one (for the bible, the quran and the book of mormon) is "The Sceptics Annotated Bible":
(http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.html)

If you had any other questions, either post them here, adn I'll hit them in the next few days, or TG me...

"Thou shallt not have any other God before me" - or something like that

"Thou shallt not have any other God before me" - or something like that

Exodus 20:3 "Thou shalt have no other gods before me".

Which is odd, really. Because, if there ARE no other gods... how could you have other gods BEFORE this one...?

Exodus 20:3 "Thou shalt have no other gods before me".

Which is odd, really. Because, if there ARE no other gods... how could you have other gods BEFORE this one...?
I think that "have" should actually be "worship"

what do you mean by unbroken tie

You can trace Judism, Buddism, Christianity, Muslimism, and several other religions since their inception historically.

Wicca has no such trace. And, historically, nothing that does not have a common charter survives more than a generation or two without being lost or changed.

At the risk of not staying on topic with this thread and being admonished as above:
I bow to your knowledge. (Sort of, I don't want to come off like a wus).
I've been reading a lot about esoteric traditions both B.C.E. and C.E. while at the same time skimming parts of the Bible. The problem is I have the absolute worst translation ever. I came to the conclusion a few months ago that I have to just learn ancient Greek, Coptic and Hebrew and get my hands on some very early translations. Is that how you go about it, if I may be so brave to ask? Suggest any books, links, etc? Reply or TG, but I'm off to sleep very soon. Thx.

I'm sorry, but I really, really, REALLY *hate* this "Policitally Correct" BCE/CE stuff.

I'll spare everyone reading the long post, but if you're interested, you can find it here:
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7098023&postcount=104

Otherwise, I think you're right about translations over time. :)

I'm sorry, but I really, really, REALLY *hate* this "Policitally Correct" BCE/CE stuff.

I'll spare everyone reading the long post, but if you're interested, you can find it here:
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7098023&postcount=104

Otherwise, I think you're right about translations over time. :)
Appreciate your anguish, however, let me be the first to set you straight, (according to what I know anyway).
B.C.E. stands for "before CHRISTIAN era"
C.E. stands for "Christian era"
Never heard of that "common" thing.
Anyway, PC as it is, it tends to placate the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Athiests, and everyone else who doesn't accept Jesus Christ as their Personal Lord and Savior.

Appreciate your anguish, however, let me be the first to set you straight, (according to what I know anyway).
B.C.E. stands for "before CHRISTIAN era"
C.E. stands for "Christian era"
Never heard of that "common" thing.
Anyway, PC as it is, it tends to placate the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Athiests, and everyone else who doesn't accept Jesus Christ as their Personal Lord and Savior.

Search in Google. Common Era comes up a ton... and I've heard people use it in conversation.

I'm certainly not asking everyone to convert to Christianity.
But as a courtesy to others, I don't tell the time in 24 hour format. I use American/English units of measure in mixed company, etc.

I think that not PC'ing the language is not too much to ask. :)

@Kumi: Maybe its just me, but if you actively look around deciding which religion to believe in, you might not need one. Faith is a crutch to better cope with the things we do not understand. If you dont need crutches you dont need to decide if you want them to be blue, red or yellow. ;)
Of course i am just trying to convert you, come into the folds of the Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic (http://apatheticagnostic.com/).
"We don't know and we don't care.!
yes but i would like a place for explanation and everyone needs a crutch some are unwilling to admit it but i just want to find an answer and what i'm looking for is a peccimistic religion that goes against none that's why i looked at wicca but i'm still looking see i don't believe in the magic is the thing... so i'm searching

@Kumi: Maybe its just me, but if you actively look around deciding which religion to believe in, you might not need one. Faith is a crutch to better cope with the things we do not understand. If you dont need crutches you dont need to decide if you want them to be blue, red or yellow. ;)
Of course i am just trying to convert you, come into the folds of the Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic (http://apatheticagnostic.com/).
"We don't know and we don't care.!

Wow. Very interesting faith, or lack of. Either way, very interesting.

ok i was wondering i personally have no religious beliefs but instead is searching for some and i saw witchcraft and did some research. Well I found out that the church is very against it but i wonder why i asked a very religious friend that and he said "because the bible sys it is wrong" then i asked why and got a shrug and asked if i still rooted for the chiefs so you religious people why are you against wicca and other witch craft even the ones that are against pain and suffering.
Um...a bit of topic I know, but if you DO get some religious beliefs, could you do us all a favour and worship a God that allows, nay demands, you to have punctuation in your threads.

Um...a bit of topic I know, but if you DO get some religious beliefs, could you do us all a favour and worship a God that allows, nay demands, you to have punctuation in your threads.

What you don't remember the 14th Commandment?

"Thou shalt rarely punctuate"


*No offensive Kumi. I'm still on your side.

I bring you these fifteen, *crash*, oi.... ten!! Ten commandments!!!


Just thought I would mention it. Its my favorite part of that movie.

Thou shalt not make other commandments
:D

LOL

LOL
it was in the episode where they asked the actor in "the 10 commandments" if he was gonna do a sequel.

That show rocks

it was in the episode where they asked the actor in "the 10 commandments" if he was gonna do a sequel.

That show rocks

Yeah. Haha. I never saw that episode. That'd be great, The 10 Commandments: Reloaded

were you still interested in knowing why christian churches hate witches, witchcraft, wiccans, etc?

it has nothing to do with the quality of the beliefs. the kind of people who are IN them, their truths. no christian denomination has bothered to do an extensive objective study of such groups. the Malleus Maleficarum was pretty much made up whole cloth out of the nightmare supposiitions of repressed men. it has little basis in fact.

the christian supernatural universe is made up of only 2 players GOD and SATAN. there are no other "gods". none. there is ONE god and his "helpers" (angels, archangels, cherubim, seraphim, saints, etc). the rest are tools of satan.

all GOOD supernatural creatures obey the law of god as layed out in the bible. anything that does not follow that law is of SATAN.

so to a good christian, it doesnt matter that a wiccan is a good person who helps out in times of crisis. they are not christians, so they MUST be tools of satan and thus EVIL.

all those religions who recognize the god of the old testament have some chance of being "good". (even if in their sad disbelief in jesus they are still damned). so jews can be good people, moslems can be good people.

HINDUS however, must be in thrall to satan. see why? they have a whole different strange pantheon. they CAN'T be worhipping the true god, so the only thing LEFT is satan. there is no room for "other gods who arent as good as ours" (i suppose "kinder gentler" christians can think they are just mistaken and are worshipping nothing real)

so if you are interested in wiccan and similar beliefs, you cant worry about what christian denominations think of them. it has nothing to do with THEM really. look for yourself and decide if thats the kind of thing you can really believe in. part of taking on this belief is that massive numbers of people around you will misunderstand what you are doing and why.

HINDUS however, must be in thrall to satan. see why? they have a whole different strange pantheon. they CAN'T be worhipping the true god, so the only thing LEFT is satan. there is no room for "other gods who arent as good as ours" (i suppose "kinder gentler" christians can think they are just mistaken and are worshipping nothing real) You forgot the "they worship something which doesn't exist" option. If the Hindu gods don't exist, then Hindus aren't worshipping Satan, they are worshipping nonexistant entities.

You forgot the "they worship something which doesn't exist" option. If the Hindu gods don't exist, then Hindus aren't worshipping Satan, they are worshipping nonexistant entities.
thats what i meant by "worshiping nothing real"

How about this ...

Follow your heart.

There is nothing more you need to know.

How about this ...

Follow your heart.

There is nothing more you need to know.

Err.. my heart kind of stays in the same place most of the time, just behind my ribs, left side. Left-ish. Yeah.

Going on from what Ashmoria said, any power that doesn't come from God comes from Satan. Don't think church congregations would be too happy if people started turning up and boiling the holy water Al Pacino style.

Err.. my heart kind of stays in the same place most of the time, just behind my ribs, left side. Left-ish. Yeah.

Going from what Ashmoria said, any power that doesn't come from God comes from Satan. Don't think church congregations would be too happy if people started turning up and boiling the holy water Al Pacino style.

yikes you have a point!

maybe he should have said "follow your heart IN YOUR OWN SPACE"

yikes you have a point!

maybe he should have said "follow your heart IN YOUR OWN SPACE"

Heh heh. I keep my heart on a leash. No wandering around for it.

Heh heh. I keep my heart on a leash. No wandering around for it.

Is it one of those retractable leashes with the button you press in case your heart starts sniffing other heart's asses?

(do hearts have asses?)

Err.. my heart kind of stays in the same place most of the time, just behind my ribs, left side. Left-ish. Yeah.

Smartass :D

Going on from what Ashmoria said, any power that doesn't come from God comes from Satan.

If that's what you believe, great! I hope it works out for ya. As for me, well, Jesus gets along just fine without me and I without him. Nice mutual relationship.

Don't think church congregations would be too happy if people started turning up and boiling the holy water Al Pacino style.

Meh ... would make brewing tea faster.

Meh ... would make brewing tea faster.

Only if it was holy water tea...

Is it one of those retractable leashes with the button you press in case your heart starts sniffing other heart's asses?

(do hearts have asses?)

:eek: LOL. Yeah its retractable.

The Church wanted to portray the Wiccans as evil, black cat-carrying Satanists, so they told everyone they had warts on their noses and practiced black magic. Witch comes from the word Wicca. And today, if you were to say Wicca, most people would say "What?" instead of "Witches!"-People have totally forgotten the origin of the word witch. So anyway. *shrugs*

Only if it was holy water tea...

Mmm... Divine Earl Grey

Well, I've always had the impression that religion leads to things like Crusades, Suicide Bombers, and that disgusting brown rice.
So I'm atheist. It's the way to go.

The Church wanted to portray the Wiccans as evil, black cat-carrying Satanists, so they told everyone they had warts on their noses and practiced black magic. Witch comes from the word Wicca. And today, if you were to say Wicca, most people would say "What?" instead of "Witches!"-People have totally forgotten the origin of the word witch. So anyway. *shrugs*

Well, I don't worship Satan, and my cat is orange. Though I do have a black dog.

Only if it was holy water tea...

Well, unfortunately holy water has salt in it (how much more Pagan can you get than annointing your water with a symbol of the Earth god) and salt just doesn't make good tea.

and salt just doesn't make good tea.

Oh I beg to differ. It adds a certain tang.

Well I haven't tried my Church's Holy Water lately, so I wouldn't really know the taste.

Well I haven't tried my Church's Holy Water lately, so I wouldn't really know the taste.

Try it next time you feel the need to bob for apples. :D

Try it next time you feel the need to bob for apples. :D

LOL, k. I don't think I've ever bobbed for apples. Well maybe a long time ago. I've bobbed for beer before. :D

LOL, k. I don't think I've ever bobbed for apples. Well maybe a long time ago. I've bobbed for beer before. :D

Ow. Doesn't metal hurt?

Ow. Doesn't metal hurt?

Yes.

lol i'm just looking for a religion and you can go to barnes and noble and get voodoo dolls at least around here

Why, "pray" tell, are you "looking for a religion"? Where were you when you last had it? What were you doing? Perhaps you left it on the divan? or maybe it fell behind the bureau?

"Looking for a religion"? Whatever on Earth for? Are you feeling left out? Incomplete? Tired of checking the "none/other" box?

Seek Truth, in all diligence and self-honesty. No dogma that anyone else wants to sell you, even give you for "free", will ever compare.

Ow. Doesn't metal hurt?


After 4 or 5 beers, who cares?

I'm a neopagan. go look at www.witchvox.com for some real balanced info.
The bible says it is wrong, but it's only a book. That's the short answer.
It is a very real and positive religion...

What religion are you? go to belief-o-matic at http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html
to find out.

Greets

Lily

After 4 or 5 beers, who cares?

4 or 5???? :eek: you light weight! 4 or 5??? I'm barely buzzed at that point. Now, give me 20-30 then we're in business, and by that I mean its a miracle I can stand.

But anyway, back to the religion, I don't want to go too far off topic.

4 or 5???? :eek: you light weight! 4 or 5??? I'm barely buzzed at that point. Now, give me 20-30 then we're in business, and by that I mean its a miracle I can stand.


Bah! Just a figure of speech. :p I'm a whiskey man, myself. Beer is just a chaser. :D


But anyway, back to the religion, I don't want to go too far off topic.


Wait .... I thought that's what we were discussing ...

Bah! Just a figure of speech. :p I'm a whiskey man, myself. Beer is just a chaser. :D

Ah, good to know. You scared me.


Wait .... I thought that's what we were discussing ...

Yes, yes it is.

I'm a neopagan. go look at www.witchvox.com for some real balanced info.
The bible says it is wrong, but it's only a book. That's the short answer.
It is a very real and positive religion...

What religion are you? go to belief-o-matic at http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html
to find out.

Well that quiz jobby's a little way out but then it does say "in it's less than inifinite wisdom". Damn thing put JW beliefs at 4th place for me. I resent that.

You realise that by saying the Bible is only a book you might offend some people. It's like saying Jesus was a nice man with some Medical degrees. Besides what's a neopagan (ok I should have gone to the website but I'd rather slag things off having no understanding of them whatsoever. It's more fulfilling) is it like a pagan for the 21st century. Kind of like the New Labour Party (without the insults that could include)

How do you pick up beer cans in your teeth? ouch!!

4 or 5???? :eek: you light weight! 4 or 5??? I'm barely buzzed at that point. Now, give me 20-30 then we're in business, and by that I mean its a miracle I can stand.

But anyway, back to the religion, I don't want to go too far off topic.

Maybe it's not american 'beer' that he was referring to (after all, what the US calls 'beer' gets called other things in the rest of the world... most of it related to bodily waste extraction, or jokes about canoes).

Now, as the man said, whiskey is a different matter... and it is on topics, after all, whiskey is a spirit, and witches are accused of summoning spirits...

ok i don't want to convert you i'm simply trying to find the religion best for ME.

Finding a religion that suits yourself is not an easy task. I Studied a great many, including Wicca, before I found the one that suits me. Look around, talk to the practitioners of various beliefs, study their doctrines, and eventually you may find one.

@Kumi: Maybe its just me, but if you actively look around deciding which religion to believe in, you might not need one. Faith is a crutch to better cope with the things we do not understand. If you dont need crutches you dont need to decide if you want them to be blue, red or yellow. ;)
Of course i am just trying to convert you, come into the folds of the Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic (http://apatheticagnostic.com/).
"We don't know and we don't care.!
Faith is a crutch yes, because we as humans are too incomplete to understand the concept of nothing, everything and loneliness. But just like a crutch it needs to be fitted and be of the right kind to be used properly. If you use a crutch that's too long, too short or too heavy, it won't be effective..

Also a question for you Big Jim, are you a Satanist? If so what type? Traditional or Modern?

You realise that by saying the Bible is only a book you might offend some people.

that's why I wrote it's the short answer. I will offend some very traditional (read fundamentalist) christians, yes. But they offend me by saying I am wrong and after death will be an unwilling participant in a BBQ.

If you ask for the official stance of the christian clergy of my country of residence - they will tell you the same. At least that the bible is the inerrant word of god is not what the priest taught me in school.

Why neopagan? Because our practice is grounded in the old ways of our ancestors, but there is no way we can shed the developments of the last 2000 years in western europe - including the enlightenment and industrialization, etc.

Neopaganism = Worship of old gods with new insights. Again, that's the short version :)

Real witchcraft is used to contact the devil and evil spirits, this is why it is wrong in Catholicism.

Real witchcraft is used to contact the devil and evil spirits, this is why it is wrong in Catholicism.

It would be really nice if everyone read up on their facts first, and open their minds to reality, in which christianity is not the only way.

Wicca, a real religion, is just another way to experience deity. The devil is not an existing concept in this religion. Deity is viewed differently from the christian view, just as other world religions view it differently.

Real witchcraft is used to contact the devil and evil spirits, this is why it is wrong in Catholicism.

And, let me guess... Real Catholicism is about eating Jesus?

Please, at least take a little time to learn about something before you post a 'fact' as ridiculous as this...

oooh MAN I hate that fundamentalist word. Just because some dumbass used it wrongly about guys who like to wear fashion accessories made out of C4 now it gets used about Christians with big heads and fat wallets.

A REAL Christian fundamentalist is a someone who believes wholeheartedly in the FUNDAMENTALS (see where the tag comes from now?) of the Religion (not too hot on that word either) eg.

1) Bible is God Breathed, infallible, covers everything etc
2) Jesus cared enough to die for human sins
3) Believe (and act as if you believe) he died and you're off to the big Rock Party in the sky

and all that lot. Part and parcel of that lot is the belief that if you're not specifically worshipping God then you're saying, to quote Tenacious D, HAIL SATAN.

Sorry, after reading that lot I was almost on the floor laughing...

To quote a good friend (actually a worshipper of some Sumerian God or another... don't ask i think she's nuts thiestically)

'Religion is for those who wish to follow, Philisophy is for the individual to think about'

As for Wicca, it's one of these invented Religions... yes sorry to say all you Wicca out there but it is... it is a vague theological descendent for Druidism yes, but little else connects it to the past... even modern Druidism is nothing like the original Druidism... like a lot of these 'religions' it is simply parts of oldish thiestic systems given modern morality, so it is hardly conducive to claim lineage is it?

Don't get me started on the Catholic Church, it has hilarious dogma, i'll give it that, and if it represents God... i think i will align myself with Lucifer thank you very much.

What am I? Myself... I associate with the ideals of Social Darwinism/Nietzsche/Humanism and 'Modern' Satanism (no I don't follow La Vey, he wrote one good book the TSB thats all, i'm also anti-CoS, ToS etc). Also, as far as God is concerned i'm agnostic.

As for Wicca, it's one of these invented Religions...

All religions were made up at some point by someone somewhere.

Older != Better. If it did, Hindu would pwn you all.

Real witchcraft is used to contact the devil and evil spirits, this is why it is wrong in Catholicism.
But Catholicism does the same. Trying to summon their so called saints and shit. Except they call it praying instead of ritual or spell.

All religions were made up at some point by someone somewhere.

Older != Better. If it did, Hindu would pwn you all.

Sorry, should have said 'recently invented', the reason behind that is the fact that the majority of the Pagan/Wicca community (in my experience of them) claim these massively old lineages, when in fact their religion in it's current form has been for around 50-60 years.

Judaism is pretty ancient too... :D

Sorry, should have said 'recently invented', the reason behind that is the fact that the majority of the Pagan/Wicca community (in my experience of them) claim these massively old lineages, when in fact their religion in it's current form has been for around 50-60 years.

Well, they are extremely old lineages. As they have God's and Godesses from all major European and even Egyptian panthenons. You'll find Thor, Zeus, Odin, Freya, Sif, Hera, Pallas Athena, Seth etc....in Wicca. And they celebrate old Pagan holidays. So in that sense they are old lineages.

..."I find your lack of faith disturbing."

Sorry, should have said 'recently invented', the reason behind that is the fact that the majority of the Pagan/Wicca community (in my experience of them) claim these massively old lineages, when in fact their religion in it's current form has been for around 50-60 years.


Ah, yes, well ... Gardner did a fine job with Wicca. I applaud his efforts, but am disgusted by his followers. Not that all Wiccans are bad, mind you, just self-righteous and a little arrogant.

There is a question which will almost always piss off a Wiccan:

"Have you, or anyone you've ever known, been hung or burned at a stake or dragged into court to defend yourself concerning your religious beliefs?"

It's the funny thing about them, ya know? They always rant and scream and piss and moan about how the evil oppressive Christians are trying to take away their way of life, but they can't provide any actual examples.

I mean ... I'm Native American ... my people know about oppression and we have a distinct and lengthy lineage. I, personally, have never been forced off my land or given a smallpox riddled blanket or called a savage while being shot in the face.

It just makes me chuckle when a fat American Wiccan whines about oppression on the internet.

Sorry ... I'm babbling.

Because the Bible says it's wrong.
So, how about them Lakers?

A. Where does the Bible say it's wrong?
B. How does this belief allow you to dictate what other people do? You can keep your religious beliefs to yourself and not practice Witchcraft, and still be totally OK in the eyes of your religion. If "religious" people focused more on their own spiritual betterment than correcting other people, the world would be a much better (and safer) place.

Ah, yes, well ... Gardner did a fine job with Wicca. I applaud his efforts, but am disgusted by his followers. Not that all Wiccans are bad, mind you, just self-righteous and a little arrogant.

There is a question which will almost always piss off a Wiccan:

"Have you, or anyone you've ever known, been hung or burned at a stake or dragged into court to defend yourself concerning your religious beliefs?"

It's the funny thing about them, ya know? They always rant and scream and piss and moan about how the evil oppressive Christians are trying to take away their way of life, but they can't provide any actual examples.

I mean ... I'm Native American ... my people know about oppression and we have a distinct and lengthy lineage. I, personally, have never been forced off my land or given a smallpox riddled blanket or called a savage while being shot in the face.

It just makes me chuckle when a fat American Wiccan whines about oppression on the internet.

Sorry ... I'm babbling.


I hear ya...some people seem to enjoy whining more than anything. It is irritating when people don't know what the specific cases of oppression were. I'm not <i>Wiccan</i> but I am Eclectic Pagan. However, there <i>has</i> been a long history...ever hear about the Burning Times and the Salem Witch trials? If you want more info I can recommend you some books.

I agree--in MANY cases I've found Wiccans to be way too uptight, and the religion is way too sanitized to work for me. This "fluffiness" and uptightness does--you're right--lead to arrogance.

ever hear about the Burning Times and the Salem Witch trials?

Of course ... but I also happen to know that 100% of the people hung due to the trials in Salem were, in fact, Christians. I say let them hang each other, but at least give credit where it is due.

I agree with the fluffiness thing. I think people should be allowed to worship, pray, dance naked in the moonlight all they want ... but please, for the love of all that is divine, pick up a book once in a while and read it!

I am curious, though ... why are 90% of Wiccan high priestesses 300 pound goth chicks? Stereotypical, I know, but what's the deal? Not trying to offend, but Wicca seems to attract fat. Why?

Witches and wicca are under Satans spell. It is a growing cult that is modled after the ancient druids and other pagans. Then when they claim that they worship jesus, they are perverting christianity. I believ that the true religion of Christ (God) is Catholicism.

"Cult"? Let me elaborate on what a cult REALLY is: a religion that promises to be the only way to "salvation" and usually has its members do ridiculous things to achieve that end. Like Jim Jones' Doomsday cult. Read more on http://www.religioustolerance.org.

No sect of Paganism that I know of claims to be the only way to salvation. Catholicism does. Think about it: which is closer to being a real cult?

Of course ... but I also happen to know that 100% of the people hung due to the trials in Salem were, in fact, Christians. I say let them hang each other, but at least give credit where it is due.

I agree with the fluffiness thing. I think people should be allowed to worship, pray, dance naked in the moonlight all they want ... but please, for the love of all that is divine, pick up a book once in a while and read it!

I am curious, though ... why are 90% of Wiccan high priestesses 300 pound goth chicks? Stereotypical, I know, but what's the deal? Not trying to offend, but Wicca seems to attract fat. Why?

True, but they didn't hang each other for being Christians; the intent to exterminate the Witch population, whether it existed or not, was the main thing.

Exactly...it is really disgusting. I hear about all these teens who sit around and are like "im wiccan" but when you ask them anything about the core beliefs of the religion, they are totally stumped. Or they are only able to quote Silver Ravenwolf's book _Teen Witch_ and that's it.

Hmm..as for the 300 pound chicks, that's totally cool with me <3. But....it seems that a lot of the fluffy Wiccans tend to be Goths; they like the whole concept of being a minority religion but don't actually spend any time researching it. Could it be so they can continue to play victim, but in a different sector of their lives? I haven't met any fat Pagans; one of my (real) Pagan friends is about 5'7" (???) and looks to weigh about 130. I think what you're saying has to do with the whole Goth thing...many Goth kids tend to be pretty big, and many Goths "practice" Wicca.

how do you know that

She doesn't.

It is official church teaching.

Hate to break it to you, sweetie, but the church can't POSSIBLY always be right. Look at the sex abuse scandal--was that right? I could go on for hours.

It isn't the only Church, but the Right church.
what is your religion crossman. More specificly beliefs and denomination, just to refresh my memory.

Kumi, I have researched both sides.

LOL...according to who, you? Baptists, Methodists and Jehovah's Witnesses all say the same thing, and this brings down the whole stack of cards, you can't possibly all be right.

We do not say that all other religions are bad. Look around on that site. A LOT of info.

Well, your past several posts certainly implied it, with all that dogma about "Satan's spell" and the "Right church".

Hate to break it to you, sweetie, but the church can't POSSIBLY always be right. Look at the sex abuse scandal--was that right?
Bah. Of course it was right. They are Gods representatives on earth. Jesus touched the kids through them.

what did you research and what did you find and what were your sources :confused:

Ignore this chap, he/she/it is being dogmatic and from what I know of you, you don't seem to be into dogma.

I have been Catholic all my life. I researched primarily from that website and for the other point of view, simply from looking around. Cant remember exact sites. I WILL NEVER CONVERT from the religion founded by Christ.

I hate to break it to you, but Catholicism was founded by Paul, who never even knew Jesus in person.

A. Where does the Bible say it's wrong?
B. How does this belief allow you to dictate what other people do? You can keep your religious beliefs to yourself and not practice Witchcraft, and still be totally OK in the eyes of your religion. If "religious" people focused more on their own spiritual betterment than correcting other people, the world would be a much better (and safer) place.
Uggh......you must be an American.

Uggh......you must be an American.

Unfortunately, yes. I was born here, but frankly I do not feel any sense of belonging to this country.

What gave you that idea?

Bah. Of course it was right. They are Gods representatives on earth. Jesus touched the kids through them.

LOL!!!!!

I hate to break it to you, but Catholicism was founded by Paul, who never even knew Jesus in person.

Catholicism was founded by the guy who thought the people were too illiterate to be able to get anything out of reading the Bible. Paul's considered an apostle cos he met Jesus on the road to Damascus. And went blind. There's some details missing there really.

As for the Church/kiddy scandal, I know sweet FA about that, but would guess that behind it were people who (shock, horror) weren't really Christians. Or really bad Christians.

Baptists and Methodists may say just about the same thing. They're Christians. Jehovah's Witnesses say other things along with the rest. They're.. a little weird. No offence.

A. Where does the Bible say it's wrong?

That bit in Exodus where it says do not worship anything other than the true God. See: Ten Commandments. As I understand it, Wiccans worship many gods and also the power that they attain from these gods.

B. How does this belief allow you to dictate what other people do? You can keep your religious beliefs to yourself and not practice Witchcraft, and still be totally OK in the eyes of your religion. If "religious" people focused more on their own spiritual betterment than correcting other people, the world would be a much better (and safer) place.

The Christian belief, as probably stated many times on these forums, requires Christians to share their beliefs with those who appear to have other beliefs. This sharing shouldn't dictate what people do but let's face it, you wouldn't listen otherwise.

Look, I am sick of you bashing my beliefs. Wiccans do not believe in Satan, they do not put a face on evil in that way because to name it gives evil power. I do not follow Satan.

And you are not helping. You are bad mouthing other religions becasue you say yours is the only correct one.

Crossman, CR is a sheep. Ignore him/her/it and it'll make your life a lot easier.

Catholicism was founded by the guy who thought the people were too illiterate to be able to get anything out of reading the Bible. Paul's considered an apostle cos he met Jesus on the road to Damascus. And went blind. There's some details missing there really.

As for the Church/kiddy scandal, I know sweet FA about that, but would guess that behind it were people who (shock, horror) weren't really Christians. Or really bad Christians.

Baptists and Methodists may say just about the same thing. They're Christians. Jehovah's Witnesses say other things along with the rest. They're.. a little weird. No offence.

A. Where does the Bible say it's wrong?

That bit in Exodus where it says do not worship anything other than the true God. See: Ten Commandments. As I understand it, Wiccans worship many gods and also the power that they attain from these gods.

B. How does this belief allow you to dictate what other people do? You can keep your religious beliefs to yourself and not practice Witchcraft, and still be totally OK in the eyes of your religion. If "religious" people focused more on their own spiritual betterment than correcting other people, the world would be a much better (and safer) place.

The Christian belief, as probably stated many times on these forums, requires Christians to share their beliefs with those who appear to have other beliefs. This sharing shouldn't dictate what people do but let's face it, you wouldn't listen otherwise.

I agree re: details missing. My controversial opinion is that if Paul had stayed out of Christianity, the religion would be very different from what it is today. Plus, the 10 Commandments were intended to be *Jewish* law for Moses and his followers to abide by.

The respectful thing for Christians to do is this: if someone ASKS about their religion, then they share. Doing otherwise implies some kind of superiority/that other people can't think for themselves, and that pisses a lot of people (me included) off.

I agree re: details missing. My controversial opinion is that if Paul had stayed out of Christianity, the religion would be very different from what it is today. Plus, the 10 Commandments were intended to be *Jewish* law for Moses and his followers to abide by.

The respectful thing for Christians to do is this: if someone ASKS about their religion, then they share. Doing otherwise implies some kind of superiority/that other people can't think for themselves, and that pisses a lot of people (me included) off.

Not such a controversial opinion (the missing details bit was a joke btw). If Paul/Saul had just gone to Ananias's and said 'cheers for getting me sight back' then killed him things would have been drastically different.

Yes the commandments were intended for the Jews but God knew they would stuff up somewhere along the way so they're a Christian basis as well. Explained by Jesus endorsing them.

Know what you mean about about sharing faith. BUT... Christians believe that non-Christians go to Hell when they die. Therefore they try to share before that happens, not just when the person asks.

Don't even bother reasoning with him. Its like trying to knock over the Great Wall of China with 2 raw eggs.

LMAO!

Unfortunately, yes. I was born here, but frankly I do not feel any sense of belonging to this country.

What gave you that idea?
Like the majority of your countrymen/women you don't get sarcasm. Unless there are tags to point it out.

Bah. Of course it was right. They are Gods representatives on earth. Jesus touched the kids through them.
It was individual priests that did it. Not the church,but indivduals.
A GREAT majority of priests are holy men. Only a few perverts out of every priest on earth.

It was individual priests that did it. Not the church,but indivduals.

Aye ... I agree ... but the church did cover it up.

Doesn't matter, though. Pagans (Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, etc) have a long history of proud pedophilia. In short, it ain't new, it ain't exclusively Christian, and I doubt it will ever go away.

First off, if you do decide to be a Christian, dont think Catholics are the only Christians (not saying that you do, just that some people *cough* CR *cough* seem to be expressing that opinoin). I personally am a Lutheran, and also think that the Catholic church is corrupt but thats straying from the point. I do not think wiccans are evil persay (I know a few of those "teen wiccans" and agree with the rest of you in that they are just ignorant) I just do not believe they are worshipping anything "real". That is how I personally feel about other religions. If I were you I would read up on some of the Protestant Christian faiths also. And one other thing, "religions" like Buddhism, Daoism/Taoism, Shinto are more like philosiphies rather than actual god-wroshipping religions, and therefore can often be practiced at the same time as one of the more traditional beliefs. Oh well thats my 2 cents, either way I wish you luck in your search for faith.

It was individual priests that did it. Not the church,but indivduals.
A GREAT majority of priests are holy men. Only a few perverts out of every priest on earth.
Priests are pedophiles in the making.

Crossman, CR is a sheep. Ignore him/her/it and it'll make your life a lot easier.

Indeed.

Well, I don't worship Satan, and my cat is orange. Though I do have a black dog.

I do have a black cat...well two cats actually, but one is black. Like you, I don't worship Satan either. :p

Real witchcraft is used to contact the devil and evil spirits, this is why it is wrong in Catholicism.

No offense, but...baaaaaaaah!!! :D

And, let me guess... Real Catholicism is about eating Jesus?

Please, at least take a little time to learn about something before you post a 'fact' as ridiculous as this...

ROTFLMAO!!!!! That is gold!!!!!! Mind if I pass this on?

Like the majority of your countrymen/women you don't get sarcasm. Unless there are tags to point it out.

LOL. Sorry about that...if it's really deadpan I sometimes don't get it. Given that I haven't seen you post all that much and therefore wasn't sure of your beliefs, it was unclear if you were actually serious.

But, all things considered, deadpan sarcasm is the best kind...for more examples, go to http://objective.jesussave.us/kidz.html

But, all things considered, deadpan sarcasm is the best kind...for more examples, go to http://objective.jesussave.us/kidz.html
From that site:
My OBJECTIVE is JUST 4 KIDZ! The "z" is for "zealousness," 'cause Jesus wants us to be hot for Him
And then it goes on like this:
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent"...
So, he wants the kiddies to be hot for him. And he likes to chasten them as well. See? He's a pedophile who's into S&M. What a rolemodel.

lol wow i needed that lol

Of course ... but I also happen to know that 100% of the people hung due to the trials in Salem were, in fact, Christians. I say let them hang each other, but at least give credit where it is due.

I agree with the fluffiness thing. I think people should be allowed to worship, pray, dance naked in the moonlight all they want ... but please, for the love of all that is divine, pick up a book once in a while and read it!

I am curious, though ... why are 90% of Wiccan high priestesses 300 pound goth chicks? Stereotypical, I know, but what's the deal? Not trying to offend, but Wicca seems to attract fat. Why?

That's the problem with Salem, though. They turned on their own. Elsewhere in the world, people were burned for practising a whole variety of non-conformist ideals... whether or not they WERE 'witches', that's what they were burned for.

I'd question your stereotypical wicca, however. The European Wiccans I know, and the Australian Wiccan's I have been acquainted with, have been a variety of different shapes, sizes, genders, races... etc, and have fallen into various different fashion 'cliques'. (Predominant seems to be an 'earth-mother' model, somewhere just outside vegatarian-hippy).

I would assume, form your stereotype, that you had mainly encountered American Wiccans. Since America is unfortunately burdened with the greatest incidence of obesity... both Wiccan and non-Wiccan. That said, I know a handful of American Wiccans (2 of whom ARE goths), but none of them fit your 300 pound marker. In fact, of the Americans I know personally, the ones hitting 300 pounds on the scale are all Baptists.

I think I can explain part of the goth thing, too. In the US, Wiccan material is marketed at a certain culture... chiefly packaged alongside products that are sub-culture. Wiccan material tends to be packed away among sub-culture music, or among goth-friendly material like vampire literature. Even 'wiccan' orientated music (like the band Inkubus Sukkubus) is marketed to the 'goth' audience... so it's no surprise that there is some overlap.

Exactly...it is really disgusting. I hear about all these teens who sit around and are like "im wiccan" but when you ask them anything about the core beliefs of the religion, they are totally stumped. Or they are only able to quote Silver Ravenwolf's book _Teen Witch_ and that's it.


So, basically, you are saying that the average Wiccan is similar to the average follower of any other religion...

I have talked with a surprising number of Christians that believe there were 2 of every animal on the ark....

Not such a controversial opinion (the missing details bit was a joke btw). If Paul/Saul had just gone to Ananias's and said 'cheers for getting me sight back' then killed him things would have been drastically different.

Yes the commandments were intended for the Jews but God knew they would stuff up somewhere along the way so they're a Christian basis as well. Explained by Jesus endorsing them.

Know what you mean about about sharing faith. BUT... Christians believe that non-Christians go to Hell when they die. Therefore they try to share before that happens, not just when the person asks.

Jesus didn't endorse the ten commandments.

Depending on which gospel you read, he does endorse SOME of them, but the Gospels don't even agree on which ones, or even, how many.

The problem with Christians sharing is, some people don't want it. It's not sharing when you've refused it, it's harrassment. It is non-consensual witnessing... It is the spiritual equivalent of rape.

And, especially for those in America... the Christians who force their views on others need to be aware that 'freedom to worship' ALSO allows people NOT TO WORSHIP the same god as you!

ROTFLMAO!!!!! That is gold!!!!!! Mind if I pass this on?

It's all yours. :)

I'm a Christian. However, I by no means share the views discussed thus far. I believe anyone that forces their religious view on others claiming to be a Christian is not. I believe that we should try to save people, or at least save them according to what our religion says, but only if they accept our guidance.

I have no grudge against witches. as a matter of fact, one of my former friends is Pagan. She's rotten to the core, but not because of her religion. I know Wiccans, Voodoo practitioners, and all other sorts of witches/mages. Most of them are fine people, and I'm proud to know them.

I'm from the Southern United States, and it's hard for me to express my opinions to most Northerners about their view of us. We're not bigoted any more or less than them. As a matter of fact, if it had to be one or the other, I believe we're less bigoted than Northerners in most ways. We sit here, In Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, Lousiana, and the other Southern states with the Third Largest Economy in the World today, yet most Northerners believe us to be ignorant, redneck bigots.

Now, as for an answer to your question, I think I have an idea why Christians are against witches, and I don't remember seeing much of anything specifically about witches being evil in the Bible (Sure, there are a few, but they're fairly vague). I believe that men crafted the rumors of witches being evil, because what a man cannot understand, he fears.

Now, if I made some major mistake about the references to witches in the Bible, please forgive me. I'm only fifteen years of age and I'm afraid modern-day entertainment is too enticing for me. I don't study the Bible, but I do read it. Please tell me if i have made any errors, and I will be much obliged. Thank You.

http://maddox.xmission.com/

He have an interesting article about Wicca, read it. Couldn't find it myself right now, but I may give you a better link afterwards.

Jesus didn't endorse the ten commandments.

Depending on which gospel you read, he does endorse SOME of them, but the Gospels don't even agree on which ones, or even, how many.

And, especially for those in America... the Christians who force their views on others need to be aware that 'freedom to worship' ALSO allows people NOT TO WORSHIP the same god as you!

(sigh) Jesus did endorse the Ten Commandments several times in pretty much each gospel. Want any references? To be fair he had to seeing as they were his dad's idea. Hmm.. any father-son combo's doing that these days.

Can't comment on American view-forcing. Advice to you Americans (and others) who are sick of it; read up on it a bit, then when the next Billy Grahamite starts condemning you to hell, say "look thanks for your concern (keep a straight face there) I'm aware of the facts but I'm not interested". If they keep going... er... kick them in the kneecap and run away.

Now, as for an answer to your question, I think I have an idea why Christians are against witches, and I don't remember seeing much of anything specifically about witches being evil in the Bible (Sure, there are a few, but they're fairly vague). I believe that men crafted the rumors of witches being evil, because what a man cannot understand, he fears.

Now, if I made some major mistake about the references to witches in the Bible, please forgive me. I'm only fifteen years of age and I'm afraid modern-day entertainment is too enticing for me. I don't study the Bible, but I do read it. Please tell me if i have made any errors, and I will be much obliged. Thank You.

Hmm, 'Charmed'.. such brilliant...er.. storylines.

Christians should believe that anything supernatural which isn't being done (sincerely) in the name of God is actually at Satan's behest. EG. the girl in the Bible who could tell the future was rebuked by Jesus and promptly lost the ability to reliably win the lottery.

Hmm, 'Charmed'.. such brilliant...er.. storylines.

Christians should believe that anything supernatural which isn't being done (sincerely) in the name of God is actually at Satan's behest. EG. the girl in the Bible who could tell the future was rebuked by Jesus and promptly lost the ability to reliably win the lottery.
Isn't jealousy considerd to be a sin? Takes away the poor girls powers just because he can't do what she does. The bastard.

Isn't jealousy considerd to be a sin? Takes away the poor girls powers just because he can't do what she does. The bastard.

Yeah. Envy/jealousy. Same thing. It's one of the seven deadly sins.

Yeah. Envy/jealousy. Same thing. It's one of the seven deadly sins.
Like he was all that pure. The child of adultery.

Isn't jealousy considerd to be a sin? Takes away the poor girls powers just because he can't do what she does. The bastard.

Nah he could do it but where would be the fun in knowing you'd be taking home £5m every week (any pro footballers reading this should add some zeroes to that figure). Maybe he was annoyed cos mostly he only got to predict how and when he was going to die. Can't have been too nice.

Hey Jever, you know if you start mouthing off at the Holy Spirit too you can snag yourself an ensuite room in hell?

Hey Jever, you know if you start mouthing off at the Holy Spirit too you can snag yourself an ensuite room in hell?
Will Maria Magdalen and other naughty girls like her give me a body to body massage?

Will Maria Magdalen and other naughty girls like her give me a body to body massage?

I reckon Magdalene's waiting for a room with an indoor swimming pool in Heaven but I'm sure that some nice ladies would be happy to oblige. You mind if they're a little old? Say, a couple of milliennia each? Women, like wine...

You mind if they're a little old? Say, a couple of milliennia each? Women, like wine...
You do know they most likely sold their soul to look forever young and hot, do you? And if their a bit more "mature" that only means they are looking young and hot and have loads of experience!!!!!!!!! WHOOOOO!!!!

The thing about Wicca and, other Neo-Pagan faiths is that they are largely syncrestic. In other words they have influences from other religions and, often practitioners of these faiths have their own unique form of the religion. The central thing in Wicca though is the Wiccan Rede "An It Harm None Do What Thou WIlt" In other words do what you will as long as it hurts no one including yourself. Different practitioners also perceive the divine in different ways(as do all religions). Some see it as just the God and, Goddesse(bitheism), others are manifestations of a single divine force or being(monism/pantheism) and, others still are politheistic choosing to worship a pantheon of deities.

The main thing that Christians have against Wiccans is of course their practice of Magick because they believe they are calling upon spirits that are not of their god and, therefore in their mindset they jump to the conclusion that they are therefore of the devil. Now think for a moment, they are calling upon the divine to give that power to do good to them(since they cannot harm others because of Wiccan Rede) is that not unlike the way Christians pray to god in times of need? The way I see it is that it's the exact same thing. What people who think they're beliefs are right should realize is that no one path is right for everyone, Everyone's path is unique and, all lead to the same place.

The main thing that Christians have against Wiccans is of course their practice of Magick because they believe they are calling upon spirits that are not of their god and, therefore in their mindset they jump to the conclusion that they are therefore of the devil. Now think for a moment, they are calling upon the divine to give that power to do good to them(since they cannot harm others because of Wiccan Rede) is that not unlike the way Christians pray to god in times of need? The way I see it is that it's the exact same thing. What people who think they're beliefs are right should realize is that no one path is right for everyone, Everyone's path is unique and, all lead to the same place.

Very pretty and interesting. You have however killed off the young, hot women train of thought. Therefore you have done us mental harm. You should feel ashamed to have broken the Rede.

Kidding.

Guessing that you're told your information from sources like superior Wiccans and from the net. Christians believe that their very God, no less, tells them that any power not of him comes from Satan. Who should have the stronger conviction?

Anyway...

You do know they most likely sold their soul to look forever young and hot, do you? And if their a bit more "mature" that only means they are looking young and hot and have loads of experience!!!!!!!!! WHOOOOO!!!!

How do you know that the transition into hell hasn't removed from them their unnatural good looks and replaced them.. WITH UNSIGHTLY FACIAL HAIR AND CELLULITE?? (Selling one's soul = Plastic Surgery?)

well i have a new question: Do witches believe in evolution.

How do you know that the transition into hell hasn't removed from them their unnatural good looks and replaced them.. WITH UNSIGHTLY FACIAL HAIR AND CELLULITE?? (Selling one's soul = Plastic Surgery?)
Cause them looking always good is part of their contract. The fine print reads that they have to be my eternal sex slaves in Hell.

(sigh) Jesus did endorse the Ten Commandments several times in pretty much each gospel. Want any references? To be fair he had to seeing as they were his dad's idea. Hmm.. any father-son combo's doing that these days.

Can't comment on American view-forcing. Advice to you Americans (and others) who are sick of it; read up on it a bit, then when the next Billy Grahamite starts condemning you to hell, say "look thanks for your concern (keep a straight face there) I'm aware of the facts but I'm not interested". If they keep going... er... kick them in the kneecap and run away.

Sure, post the references. I have Gospel references where he says that some of the Jewish law still holds, or where he cites specific examples (or even adds a new one)... but I don't recall an example where Jesus says, "Yep, follow all ten of the Ten Commandments".

well i have a new question: Do witches believe in evolution.

I know Wiccans that believe in evolution (most of those I know), and I know Wiccans that are less certain... they might not believe in evolution, but they also don't believe in biblical 'creation'... I even know one or two that DO believe in biblical creation and still practice as Wiccans.

As far as I can see, Wicca is more about accepting than anything else... unfortunately, like anything that lots of people do, there are some people who take it where they want it to go...

Have you ever considerd the Jedi'ism?
http://www.jediism.org/

:D

Envy is coveting what is not yours, but jealousy can also include being stingey with what is yours. Not the same thing. Jealousy in not always a sin. You don't want to share your spouse, do you?

Kum - well i have a new question: Do witches believe in evolution.

I know Wiccans that believe in evolution (most of those I know), and I know Wiccans that are less certain... they might not believe in evolution, but they also don't believe in biblical 'creation'... I even know one or two that DO believe in biblical creation and still practice as Wiccans.

As far as I can see, Wicca is more about accepting than anything else... unfortunately, like anything that lots of people do, there are some people who take it where they want it to go...

I'd have to agree but you forget, they don't have to be mutually exclusive. (Well, as long as you don't take the biblical creation completely litterally) Creation and, Evoloution can go hand in hand.

Well the reason why it is so bad is that it is our belief in God and the Devil. Let me explain,the Devil is the greatest figure of evil in Christianity,and in order to actually do witchcraft you supposedly have to worship the Devil. I do read Harry Potter though. No Devil worshiping in there.

well i have a new question: Do witches believe in evolution.

Hmm... I don't know the official standing on that, but I personally see it as a cross between creationism and evolution. I just think both sides are right. I'm not saying God first made us monkeys. Just that we were made as humans, and we've sort of evolved. Look at the Neanderthals and our ancestors the Cro-Magnons. Perhaps humans were first put here as Neanderthals, then and off branch evolved into the Cro-Magnons, and in turn the Neanderthals died out leaving modern man.

Anyway, just my thoughts on it.

Envy is coveting what is not yours, but jealousy can also include being stingey with what is yours. Not the same thing. Jealousy in not always a sin. You don't want to share your spouse, do you?

Ah. Very well.

And no I don't!!! :mad:

Well the reason why it is so bad is that it is our belief in God and the Devil. Let me explain,the Devil is the greatest figure of evil in Christianity,and in order to actually do witchcraft you supposedly have to worship the Devil. I do read Harry Potter though. No Devil worshiping in there.

It is in the eyes of christians that witches MUST worship the devil, because otherwise christianity has no explanation for the a) deities or b) apparent power of the witch.

It is the same with all other religions, which, since they put another god before Jehovah, are also viewed as being deceived by the devil.

All those other religions, of course, deny this... since they worship whatever god or gods, and have no conception of the christian 'devil'.

Note: Most of the 'craft' of Wicca is about focusing your own resources... and though some of the more unrealistic may WANT big scary magic, like you see on TV, Wicca is about something more subtle, and far more human. This is why Wicca doesn't NEED the 'devil'.

Note: Most of the 'craft' of Wicca is about focusing your own resources... and though some of the more unrealistic may WANT big scary magic, like you see on TV, Wicca is about something more subtle, and far more human. This is why Wicca doesn't NEED the 'devil'.

Yeah, but most people would rather just buy in to what the TV or movies say than to actually try to understand us. Its sad really, but thats just how people are. They'd rather take the easy route instead of doing anything.

ok i was wondering i personally have no religious beliefs but instead is searching for some and i saw witchcraft and did some research. Well I found out that the church is very against it but i wonder why i asked a very religious friend that and he said "because the bible sys it is wrong" then i asked why and got a shrug and asked if i still rooted for the chiefs so you religious people why are you against wicca and other witch craft even the ones that are against pain and suffering.

they rewote that part of the bible during the inquasistion to justify there atemts at religious holocaust

it should also be noted that the traditions of cristmans and easter were ours first the church stole them and also changed the descrition of saitn from a darkly dressed angel w black hair and a beard to the description of The Dagda

it should also be noted that Wicca is only one sect of witchcraft just like in a lot of the OTF(one true faiths) there are diffrent sects WIcca is just the newist about 50 or so years old

anyone who is actualy interested in this should read "Teen Witch" by Silver Ravenwolf it's the most elemetry of her(or any) books she even sugest giving others who you try to explain the craft to that book

u r all crazy

u r all crazy

Wow. Does it hurt to be so hard headed?

the magic those days was like druids who burned a man alive every year.

Hmm... I happen to be a Druid. I happen to be involved in one of the world's oldest Druid orders. I don't happen to remember, in any of my studies (from the order or from historical documentation) any conclusive proof that Druids ever sacrificed humans. If you want to cite Ceasar, be careful... he said the same exact thing about Christians.

they rewote that part of the bible during the inquasistion to justify there atemts at religious holocaust

it should also be noted that the traditions of cristmans and easter were ours first the church stole them and also changed the descrition of saitn from a darkly dressed angel w black hair and a beard to the description of The Dagda

it should also be noted that Wicca is only one sect of witchcraft just like in a lot of the OTF(one true faiths) there are diffrent sects WIcca is just the newist about 50 or so years old

anyone who is actualy interested in this should read "Teen Witch" by Silver Ravenwolf it's the most elemetry of her(or any) books she even sugest giving others who you try to explain the craft to that book

Afraid not, on the first point. The prohibitions against 'witchcraft' extend clear back as far as the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts... read back through the thread, and I show how they are derived directly from the text.

The problem is that, in the middle ages, they CHOSE to read certain things with a whole load of extra implication... the Pharmakaie of the Greek version is no longer about poisoning and drugging, but extended to all manner of herbal medication, 'potions', elixirs, etc. This allowed a christian heirarchy to bring accusations of 'ungodly' behaviour against the innocents that had been providing medical services, through herbalism, for millennia.

Also, if you read back through the Old Testament, HaSatan is clearly one of the angels of heaven, and a direct tool at the hand of god. Later christian myth corrupts this ranking, and, as you say, encounter with OTHER religions corrupts it further... the 'Devil' is made to represent Pan, or The Green Man, etc. The gods of other religions are demonised in the christian pantheon.

You are right about the theft of celebrations, though. The festivals stolen are primarily european, often Celtic, celebrations... like a fertility festival being 'reconditioned' into the 'resurrection date' of Christ. Any christians ever wonder why we eat eggs on Easter?

Wicca is the only element of 'witchcraft' that has a directly demonstrable lineage, and that lineage goes back half a century. That is the root of most skepticism over 'witchcraft' as an old, or 'true', religion. It ignores the fact that some people KNOW of witches earlier than Gardner's Wicca... (my own personal family history admits personal knowledge of witches stretching back more than a century).

Also, the histories of practitioners in Larissa, the evidence of 'wiccan' figurines, such as the Venus of Willendorf, show a much longer history... perhaps as much as 25,000 years of witch-craft... but it is hard to PROVE that heritage, because there are no COMMERCIALLY available textual connections.

it should also be noted that the traditions of cristmans and easter were ours first the church stole them and also changed the descrition of saitn from a darkly dressed angel w black hair and a beard to the description of The Dagda

It should also be noted that, at least in the part of Christmas, the celebration derives itself from an ancient Druidic Yuletide celebration. The tribe (note, tribe... Druids were tribal people) would head into the forest, choose one single tree, tie it with ribbons and offerings and leave it to stand thus decorated for an full day. The next day, the tribe would again descend upon the tree, thank it for its life and willingness, cut it, take it near the dwellings, separate one log, and start a bonfire with the rest of said tree. The first log to light would be the log saved from the previous year (hence "yule log" traditions that still survive today).

It has also been argued that the description of Satan is derrived from Cerrunos, the Horned God of Druidic tradition. This doesn't matter a fig to me, but it's worth consideration.

The bible is against any religion that worships any other gods, besides God. Wicca/witchcraft is a nature based religion, that is polytheistic - meaning we have more then one Deity. Plus we practice magic and Jesus says that if the power does not come from god, then it comes from the devil (whom we don't even believe in :headbang: ).

A great introductory book to witchcraft is Vivian Crowley's (not Allistar's) book called "Paganism (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1855385074/covenanofunitari/103-0353637-0148646)".

It should also be noted that, at least in the part of Christmas, the celebration derives itself from an ancient Druidic Yuletide celebration. The tribe (note, tribe... Druids were tribal people) would head into the forest, choose one single tree, tie it with ribbons and offerings and leave it to stand thus decorated for an full day. The next day, the tribe would again descend upon the tree, thank it for its life and willingness, cut it, take it near the dwellings, separate one log, and start a bonfire with the rest of said tree. The first log to light would be the log saved from the previous year (hence "yule log" traditions that still survive today).

It has also been argued that the description of Satan is derrived from Cerrunos, the Horned God of Druidic tradition. This doesn't matter a fig to me, but it's worth consideration.

Also worth noting the the writer of the book of Jeremiah wrote about the Pagans in the lands neighbouring Israel cutting down a tree every year, nailing it to the floor, and decorating it with silver and gold, in celebration of the birth of Tammuz. Also to note that that book forbids the practice to the Jews.

And don't worry Kumi, real witches aren't the evil forces of darkness that they are portrayed as. Well, there are some, but they aren't true witches then. True witches adhere to code of not being evil and hurting people and deamon worshipping and that crap.
If by real witches you mean Wicca (which is at most 50 years old) then okay maybe yu have a reasonable answer.

If you mean the other witches who deal with dark magic, spirits, and other spellcrafts then it is spoken against in bible. And no they have no specific rule about not being evil only Wicca do.

The bible is against any religion that worships any other gods, besides God. Wicca/witchcraft is a nature based religion, that is polytheistic - meaning we have more then one Deity. Plus we practice magic and Jesus says that if the power does not come from god, then it comes from the devil (whom we don't even believe in :headbang: ).

A great introductory book to witchcraft is Vivian Crowley's (not Allistar's) book called "Paganism (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1855385074/covenanofunitari/103-0353637-0148646)".

Well, there's been some discussion about the Biblical clause "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." In that thread, we noted that the original translation should read "thou shalt not suffer a sorcerer/ess to live." Let me see if I can find that thread for you... There was a lovely link to someone's personal "dissertation" on the exact meaning and implication of those words.

I think it has less to worshiping alternat gods than you might guess. If it was about worshiping other gods, than I wouldn't have any trouble with the Christians ever. As a druid of my order, it is not required that I pay homage to any gods at all. I am a natureist, by all rights. I do not deify, I pay respect to the land, the universe, and the regenerative order of things... yet, I do fall into the category of "sorceress" because I practice divination (among other things).

Ah, here it is (found the post)... let me send you right to the explanation of the phrase:

http://www.unlc.biz/essay001.html

also, the thread:

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=363515&page=6&pp=15

Also worth noting the the writer of the book of Jeremiah wrote about the Pagans in the lands neighbouring Israel cutting down a tree every year, nailing it to the floor, and decorating it with silver and gold, in celebration of the birth of Tammuz. Also to note that that book forbids the practice to the Jews.

Fascinating... I'll have to pick that one up when I get the chance. The Christian appropriation of the custom, however, seems to have centered around Europe during the time just after the Romans adopted Catholicism. They were mass-converting the indigenous pagans to Catholicism. Attempts to make this transition more comfortable (or more compulsory, both have been argued) involved the integration of Catholic celebrations with pagan ones. Frequently, I've heard pagans argue that the Romans moved the dates because they wished their festivals to eclipse the pagan festivals. I have also read arguments that they were attempting to smooth the transition. It all depends on your perspective.

Well, there's been some discussion about the Biblical clause "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." In that thread, we noted that the original translation should read "thou shalt not suffer a sorcerer/ess to live." Let me see if I can find that thread for you... There was a lovely link to someone's personal "dissertation" on the exact meaning and implication of those words.

I think it has less to worshiping alternat gods than you might guess. If it was about worshiping other gods, than I wouldn't have any trouble with the Christians ever. As a druid of my order, it is not required that I pay homage to any gods at all. I am a natureist, by all rights. I do not deify, I pay respect to the land, the universe, and the regenerative order of things... yet, I do fall into the category of "sorceress" because I practice divination (among other things).

Ah, here it is (found the post)... let me send you right to the explanation of the phrase:

http://www.unlc.biz/essay001.html

also, the thread:

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=363515&page=6&pp=15

I went and checked those links, and Keruvalia is one of the people on the Forum to listen to, when it comes to Hebrew texts... I would advise using a little caution, though. He discludes the translation of "poisoner', but that translation isn't from Old Testament text.. it's from the Greek 'pharmakaie' in the New Testament... so, in that context, it still stands.

With regard to the Old Testament, he goes into much more depth than is needed to show that 'witch' is obviously a term of convenience to try to describe a multitude of sins... most of which are only sins to Hebrews, for example.

I posted a shorter post about the analysis of the terms for 'witch', 'bewitched', and 'witchcraft' in this very thread:

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=363677&page=7&pp=15

Post: #92.

RD can you tell me why the Cross Quarter Days are not equidistant in time from the equinoxes and solstices? I have an idea but wish to hear what you have to say first.

Sure, post the references. I have Gospel references where he says that some of the Jewish law still holds, or where he cites specific examples (or even adds a new one)... but I don't recall an example where Jesus says, "Yep, follow all ten of the Ten Commandments".

Sorry, I only had time to go through Matthew. References:

Matthew 5 v17. Needs a little brainpower to fathom. Sorry. Then goes on to quote interesting examples of some of the other sins. Read and think.

Matthew 19 v17: Jesus mentions 6 of the commandments. He leaves out the rest on purpose. Note he leaves out the one about lying. That's because the ruler then lies and hopes no one notices. Leaves out the rest for similar reasons.

That one is repeated in Luke.

Matthew 22 v37. Brainpower again. Sorry. 'ALL the law and the prophets hangs on these two commandments'. The two commandments essentially tied up the ten into two bundles. The God centred first four, and the human centred last six. Some say honouring Father and Mother is God centred as dishonouring your father is directly dishonouring God.

That's the personal insults dealt with a bit. Hopefully God will help me deal with some pagan and wiccan questions tomorrow.

Hugs and Bible verses

Monkoii of Schnappslant

anyone who is actualy interested in this should read "Teen Witch" by Silver Ravenwolf it's the most elemetry of her(or any) books she even sugest giving others who you try to explain the craft to that book

I have a copy of it at home. It is very good for someone interested and just beginning in Wicca. Very informative.

~edit~Post: #92.

Hooray for informed posters :)

If by real witches you mean Wicca (which is at most 50 years old) then okay maybe yu have a reasonable answer.


Yes, I meant Wicca.

RD can you tell me why the Cross Quarter Days are not equidistant in time from the equinoxes and solstices? I have an idea but wish to hear what you have to say first.

Simply put, the Druidic tribes of old fell subject to a twofold callendar... one was astronomical (driven by stars, moon, weather, etc.) and based on lunar cycles. The other was based on agriculture. They were an agricultural community and relied on planting as well as the hunt to provide food for their tribes. The so-named "Cross Quarter" holidays are based more closely on when the actual harvesting, planting, etc. took place. I hope that helps :).

Also keep in mind that a lunar calendar isn't as nailed down as a solar calendar. The original holidays (solstices, equinoxes) themselves were subject to shift based on the true astronomical positions (and they do not ~always~ fall on the exact same days even in a solar-based calendar).

Hooray for informed posters :)

Why, thank you. :)

Seriously, I would pay attention to Keruvalia with regard to an in depth translation of Hebrew texts... he and I argued around a thread on 'homosexuality' in the Bible - specifically we were discussing Leviticus 18:22 - and Keruvalia demonstrated encyclopedic knowledge of Hebrew as a language.

If I had a question about a Hebrew translation... Keruvalia is the person I would ask.

Why, thank you. :)

Seriously, I would pay attention to Keruvalia with regard to an in depth translation of Hebrew texts... he and I argued around a thread on 'homosexuality' in the Bible - specifically we were discussing Leviticus 18:22 - and Keruvalia demonstrated encyclopedic knowledge of Hebrew as a language.

If I had a question about a Hebrew translation... Keruvalia is the person I would ask.

Seconded.

Simply put, the Druidic tribes of old fell subject to a twofold callendar... one was astronomical (driven by stars, moon, weather, etc.) and based on lunar cycles. The other was based on agriculture. They were an agricultural community and relied on planting as well as the hunt to provide food for their tribes. The so-named "Cross Quarter" holidays are based more closely on when the actual harvesting, planting, etc. took place. I hope that helps :).

Also keep in mind that a lunar calendar isn't as nailed down as a solar calendar. The original holidays (solstices, equinoxes) themselves were subject to shift based on the true astronomical positions (and they do not ~always~ fall on the exact same days even in a solar-based calendar).

I wonder if you have historical backing for that explaination. No offence intended, but I have always suspected that it had more to do with the flaws in the Julian Calender and the catholic assimilation of the pagan holidays, such that when the Gregorian Calender was put in place the pagan holidays, not being important to the Catholics, were left on the wrong calender days where they had been placed on the Julian Calender after the creepage had already started. I have talked to a few Wiccans about this theory, and those that I have talked to do say that the true dates are celebrated privately a few days after the popular dates. In addition, as to your explaination, we're only talking about a distance of about a week here.

It is in the eyes of christians that witches MUST worship the devil, because otherwise christianity has no explanation for the a) deities or b) apparent power of the witch.

...

Note: Most of the 'craft' of Wicca is about focusing your own resources... and though some of the more unrealistic may WANT big scary magic, like you see on TV, Wicca is about something more subtle, and far more human. This is why Wicca doesn't NEED the 'devil'.


My question here is about the "apparant power of the witch."

You say that the "big scary magic" is not what it is about...

What, exactly, do you have the power to do as a witch (or warlock... I know that witch is a stereotypically female term) that is not explainable by circumstance, blind luck, or direct action. What can you *make* happen using your magic.

If I lifted an item off a table with my hand, and proclaimed it magic, and established a religion around it, people would laugh at me. If I played the lotto for 25 years and won, and claimed it was magic, they'd wonder... but it would not be so. So I ask you, what can you do, then?

Everybody and his monkey seems to have some sort of fab-o book of one sort or another to recommend. I say instead of sticking your snout in a book, why not just DO it? Who cares if you're not doing it like it says to in some book.

If you want to celebrate nature, worship the old Gods, dance naked round a fire, just do it. Hell, make up new Gods and rituals. Make them something meaningful to you. If you really want to get geographical about it, and you live in the New World, try finding out more about the Gods who dwelled in your own backyard before all the freeloading Eurotrash arrived and ruined it for everybody. But don't read about it in a book. Go find someone to talk with.

I just don't think that reading about something in a book can possibly compare with actually doing that thing in real life. And some of the books I've seen mentioned are very good ones.

My question here is about the "apparant power of the witch."

You say that the "big scary magic" is not what it is about...

What, exactly, do you have the power to do as a witch (or warlock... I know that witch is a stereotypically female term) that is not explainable by circumstance, blind luck, or direct action. What can you *make* happen using your magic.

If I lifted an item off a table with my hand, and proclaimed it magic, and established a religion around it, people would laugh at me. If I played the lotto for 25 years and won, and claimed it was magic, they'd wonder... but it would not be so. So I ask you, what can you do, then?

All I have ever encountered from Wicca is all I have ever encountered from any religion/philosophy/approach to life. When at it's most positive, good things seem to happen... which I largely allocate responsibility for, to a positive mental attitude.

I have heard the fairytales of magic spells, etc.... but have never witnessed anything 'unnatural', or that couldn't be explained by, as you said, circumstance, blind luck or direct action.

The same holds true for the power of prayer in christian circles... and that is where I see an obvious parallel... two groups of people using a simplistic ritual format to focus their energies, in the hopes of improving their reality.

All I have ever encountered from Wicca is all I have ever encountered from any religion/philosophy/approach to life. When at it's most positive, good things seem to happen... which I largely allocate responsibility for, to a positive mental attitude.

The same holds true for the power of prayer in christian circles... and that is where I see an obvious parallel... two groups of people using a simplistic ritual format to focus their energies, in the hopes of improving their reality.

Not an obvious parallel. That's the problem and the thing that people don't understand is.... Christians do not focus THEIR own energies. They pray to God, for example to heal a sick person, to ask that if it is his will then healing would come.

Christians know that nothing they can physically do can alter their path to Hell. Only by accepting certain things can they go to heaven. Unfortunately people get the idea that Christians just have to do good things because of the fact that if you truly believe something you have to do something about it.

Sorry, random ramble. From Christianity's point of view if you do not worship God then you worship Satan. If you do not know immediately what you worship, consider your priorities. Do you let other things slide so you can watch TV. Is the acquisition of more and more money important to you? Do you spend your life on forums posting stuff?

Bugger, that's me 3/3

From Christianity's point of view if you do not worship God then you worship Satan.

Christianity has a point of view only if all Christians agree. I'm sure they don't, and I'm sure that they don't all agree specifically on this point.

Christianity has a point of view only if all Christians agree. I'm sure they don't, and I'm sure that they don't all agree specifically on this point.

Total, utter bullshit. Sorry, and probably not your fault. Real Christians MUST take the Bible's teaching and rules as their point of view. Anyone who twists and bends the truth of the Bible is going on his nice little walk down the wide road to a lava bath.

Not an obvious parallel. That's the problem and the thing that people don't understand is.... Christians do not focus THEIR own energies. They pray to God, for example to heal a sick person, to ask that if it is his will then healing would come.

Christians know that nothing they can physically know can alter their path to Hell. Only by accepting certain things can they go to heaven. Unfortunately people get the idea that Christians just have to do good things because of the fact that if you truly believe something you have to do something about it.

Sorry, random ramble. From Christianity's point of view if you do not worship God then you worship Satan. If you do not know immediately what you worship, consider your priorities. Do you let other things slide so you can watch TV. Is the acquisition of more and more money important to you? Do you spend your life on forums posting stuff?

Bugger, that's me 3/3

Christians CLAIM that they don't focus their OWN energies.
Christians CLAIM that their prayer is to god, and that, when a positive effect arrives, it was due to their god.

I see no evidence.

I do not doubt the efficacy of prayer. I have seen clinical tests that prove the efficacy of prayer.

However, the one thing that was MOST obvious about the scientific evidence for the efficacy of prayer, was that: It didn't matter what religion the 'praying party' belonged to (if any), or which god/gods they prayed to (if any). The evidence shows that even Atheists following the mantric prayer format has the same effect as 'prayer'.

The Christian assertion that you worship god OR you worship Satan is clearly a nonsense to anyone who ISN'T connected to a judeo-christian religion... since Satan is an artifact of Judeo-Christian mythology, and has no relevence in the lives of those NOT party to judeo-christian theology.

But, it is obvious that christianity would try to demonise it's opponents, and what better way than by saying that all their gods are devils.

Personally: I don't let other things slide so I can watch TV. I do not watch TV.

I am not interested in the pursuit of money, except in as much as is needed to pay for my needs, and the needs of my family.

I don't even spend my life on the forum... maybe a few hours on any given day... but it pales in comparison to all the activity I engage in that ISN'T on the forum.

Hmmm, does that mean I believe in god?

Total, utter bullshit. Sorry, and probably not your fault. Real Christians MUST take the Bible's teaching and rules as their point of view. Anyone who twists and bends the truth of the Bible is going on his nice little walk down the wide road to a lava bath.

Real Christians?

Firstly, who are you to define real christianity? Second, where in the bible does it say that if you don't worship god, you worship satan? And third, where in the bible does it say which of the teaching and rules in the bible a Real Christian follows? Don't say "all of them" because in that case there are no Real Christians.

Total, utter bullshit. Sorry, and probably not your fault. Real Christians MUST take the Bible's teaching and rules as their point of view. Anyone who twists and bends the truth of the Bible is going on his nice little walk down the wide road to a lava bath.

Who are these 'Real Christians'?

A quick Google search gives these people: http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/index.html

as the most likely candidates, since they provide a handy little guide:

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/real.htm

(Which are the real Christians).

Christians CLAIM that they don't focus their OWN energies.
Christians CLAIM that their prayer is to God, and that, when a positive effect arrives, it was due to their God.

I see no evidence.

Christians do not focus their own energies and believe that they can achieve supernatural, miraculous healing by their own efforts. Fact.
Christians pray to God. Fact.

Problem?

Who cares if you think you haven't seen evidence? I'm certain you have. You just having been looking for it in the right places.

I do not doubt the efficacy of prayer. I have seen clinical tests that prove the efficacy of prayer.

However, the one thing that was MOST obvious about the scientific evidence for the efficacy of prayer, was that: It didn't matter what religion the 'praying party' belonged to (if any), or which god/gods they prayed to (if any). The evidence shows that even Atheists following the mantric prayer format has the same effect as 'prayer'.

So. Satan can do much of what God can do, just not in the same league in power terms.

The Christian assertion that you worship god OR you worship Satan is clearly a nonsense to anyone who ISN'T connected to a judeo-christian religion... since Satan is an artifact of Judeo-Christian mythology, and has no relevence in the lives of those NOT party to judeo-christian theology.

Right. That's er.. really not my problem. Satan exists, isn't Marilyn Manson or Chris Pontius and really DOES have relevance to non-Christian lives. They just prefer to not see it.

But, it is obvious that christianity would try to demonise it's opponents, and what better way than by saying that all their gods are devils.

Personally: I don't let other things slide so I can watch TV. I do not watch TV. I am not interested in the pursuit of money, except in as much as is needed to pay for my needs, and the needs of my family. I don't even spend my life on the forum... maybe a few hours on any given day... but it pales in comparison to all the activity I engage in that ISN'T on the forum.

These (TV etc) are called examples. Every belief system which believes that it is entirely correct will demonise, directly or otherwise, every other system. One of these belief systems is correct. Which one are you going for?

Hmmm, does that mean I believe in God?

No and believing in God doesn't mean a thing on it's own. If you hadn't noticed Satan believes in God, in that he know that God exists. NEXT SONG

Real Christians? Firstly, who are you to define real christianity?

I didn't realise I did. But I will. A Real Christian is someone who tries with all their heart to be like Jesus all his life.

Man, even I realise that has real 'trite vomit value'. But it is true. Plus I don't believe that I'm coming out with all this by myself.

Second, where in the bible does it say that if you don't worship god, you worship satan?

Hmm... quite a few times. I challenge you to read it through and come back with that one.

And third, where in the bible does it say which of the teaching and rules in the bible a Real Christian follows? Don't say "all of them" because in that case there are no Real Christians.

Exodus somewhere, Ten Commandments, ring any bells? You know with the tablets and Mount Sinai? That kind of thing.

And If you want to know which to follow, try asking someone else. Like the being that first thought of them? Unless you don't believe that he exists. If you don't, you're screwed. Have a nice day.

A witch turned me into a newt!

I got better.