NationStates Jolt Archive

Talks will start soon in order to admit Turkey into the E.U.

I'd like to know your opinion on this issue. How about admitting an islamic country into the Union? Economically still rather weak, still working on improving civil rights, still intolerant towards minorities (Kurds), emigration-prone etc., but modelling its society on the Western example since 1923 (Kemal) and a NATO member to boost.

Personally I think they have quite a way to go, but a unique opportunity is presented here to bridge a cultural and economical gap that's been ever growing over the past decades, not to say the last few years. This is the way Europe works. No weapons needed. A couple comments from Americans would be welcome.

the more the merrier :D

Its good to see the EU growing and expanding into other cultures and as you say without weapons is the way forward.

Im all for it and dont see why turkey wont be a usefull member of the EU.

The only way to get Turkey to reform and become a proper democracy is to treat it with respect and put pressure on it. The best way to do that is to admit it into the EU. If it isn't admitted, what reason would it have to reform?

All I can say is: NO!!!
Accepting a non European country into the EU is suicide. Apart from the economic burden of them slorping up some 28 to 30+ billion a year. Turks would immigrate en masse to Europe thereby destroying European cultures as we know it sooner or later. Thats why the Americans are so keen on us admitting them. So they can destroy us from the inside without a single shot beeing fired.

All I can say is: NO!!!
Accepting a non European country into the EU is suicide. Apart from the economic burden of them slorping up some 28 to 30+ billion a year. Turks would immigrate en masse to Europe thereby destroying European cultures as we know it sooner or later. Thats why the Americans are so keen on us admitting them. So they can destroy us from the inside without a single shot beeing fired.
If it's such a burden economically why all right wingers are so much keener to take Turkey in the EU than the lefties are? I think they're going to change the rules before Turkey will become a member. Even though it's a huge and poor nation it's also a huge new marketing area and almost an endless source of chea(er) labour.
I don't believe that Turks are going to destroy the variety of European cultures. They have been our neighbour quite some time now...And they are not the only muslims in Europe. There are quite many of them i.e. in the Balkan area too. Also quite many countries need more workers in the near future anyway as the population is aging.
I'm not very keen to have Turkey in EU either but I believe that it will turn the country to better in matters of civil and political rights, economics etc etc. Turkey isn't ready yet, that's for sure, but they are discussing that Turkey would join EU in 2019, it's not going to happen very fast.

All I can say is: NO!!!
Accepting a non European country into the EU is suicide. Apart from the economic burden of them slorping up some 28 to 30+ billion a year. Turks would immigrate en masse to Europe thereby destroying European cultures as we know it sooner or later. Thats why the Americans are so keen on us admitting them. So they can destroy us from the inside without a single shot beeing fired.
Last I checked, Turkey was at least partially on the European continent.

And nothing would be better than if 90% of the Turks migrated into the rest of Europe, as it would free up a LOT of really really really really cheap real estate with nice beaches and excellent climate for us rich Europeans to move into.

1) They're too poor.

2) Their legal system too inefficient/corrupt.

3) They are too authoritarian.

4) The EU would have to stop ignoring the issue of the Kurds. What a can of worms that is.

All I can say is: NO!!!
Accepting a non European country into the EU is suicide. Apart from the economic burden of them slorping up some 28 to 30+ billion a year. Turks would immigrate en masse to Europe thereby destroying European cultures as we know it sooner or later. Thats why the Americans are so keen on us admitting them. So they can destroy us from the inside without a single shot beeing fired.


In what sense is Turkey a non-european country?

Is it simply racism that makes you think admitting an islamic/arabic country is suicide? Spain has a proud islamic/arabic history by the way.

The economic burden of turkey won't be greater than that of the last 10 countries admitted put together.

15 years ago Ireland was an economic burden on the EU. It currently has the 3rd highest GDP per capita in the EU.

European culture as my grandfather knew it was eating meat and two veg, being a christian and wearing a shirt and tie. Eventually TV was popular enough for him to afford one. I'm glad that European culture as he knew it has been destroyed by among other things immigration. European culture as I know it includes food, art and music from all over the world and a secular state containing myriad religious and non-religious communities. It is richer than a northern working class white boy like me could ever have hoped to experience without the EU and commonwealth immigration. And I appreciate greatly the Turkish bloke who runs a kebab shop near my brother's house.

What happenned to the great waves of poles, slovenians, balkans etc that were supposed to immigrate en masse? Where are they? London still appears to have more australians than slavs.

How would mass immigration destroy the EU from the inside? The EU would still contain the same people even if lots of Turks moved to France, Spain and Germany. And the Turks would still be outnumbered.

I'm against admitting Turkey just yet because I don't think they have a good policy with regard to the Kurds, but I don't know much about it.

I do know that my life experience improves the bigger and closer the EU becomes.

Where did you get your views? I'm astounded that anyone under the age of 60 can vote for UKIP and that anyone with an IQ over 60 can vote for the BNP.

Oh yeah...

5) One (porous) border will be with Iraq, another with the EU. Being part of a free trade area, border controls will be a joke. Who wants that, with all the terrorism that has been stoked up by the Americans in Iraq?

1) They're too poor.

2) Their legal system too inefficient/corrupt.

3) They are too authoritarian.

4) The EU would have to stop ignoring the issue of the Kurds. What a can of worms that is.
Three reasons why we should have more cooperation with them. To help them change.
The fourth is true. They SHOULD stop ignoring it. Right now. Not when Turkey maybe joins the EU

Oh yeah...

5) One (porous) border will be with Iraq, another with the EU. Being part of a free trade area, border controls will be a joke. Who wants that, with all the terrorism that has been stoked up by the Americans in Iraq?

Free trade doesn't mean free borders. There is no reason to believe that policing of the relatively narrow border between Turkey and Bulgaria and Greece will get worse if Greece and Bulgaria don't want it to get worse.

And Greece and Turkey aren't exactly great mates.

If it's such a burden economically why all right wingers are so much keener to take Turkey in the EU than the lefties are?
What rightwingers would that be? The German Christian Democrats are aginst it. A priviledged trading status yes. But not a full fledged membership. Chiraq, Schroeder and Blair are not rightwingers. Most of the Christian Democrats are for a priviledged status. Which isn't the same as a membership. The Austrians are against membership. Another rightwing government.

Oh yeah...

5) One (porous) border will be with Iraq, another with the EU. Being part of a free trade area, border controls will be a joke. Who wants that, with all the terrorism that has been stoked up by the Americans in Iraq?
Don't forget the rather large border with Iran and Syria.

What rightwingers would that be? The German Christian Democrats are aginst it. A priviledged trading status yes. But not a full fledged membership. Chiraq, Schroeder and Blair are not rightwingers. Most of the Christian Democrats are for a priviledged status. Which isn't the same as a membership. The Austrians are against membership. Another rightwing government.
Alright very stupid point from me. That is the situation in my country and I admit, it was very stupid to say the situation would be the same in every country. sorry.

Turkye is a muslim country that was reformed by Mustapha Kemal, hecreated a rule where the army would intervene if a Muslim (extremist) party rises to power.
The last time the Turkish army revolted against their muslim leaders was in 1982.
Offcourse if Turkye enters the EU, the army will lose lots of that power and become completely controled by that government. The army will no longer be able to revolt against Muslim extremist politicians.
Result:(and my prof at University said the same) a muslim party (AK?) will become radical and thousands(millions) of Turks will support it. A new muslim extremist nation will appear on the worldmap, Terrorists wont have to pass the Iraqi border, the new terrorists will most likely be Turks themselves.

Thats a reason for not letting them in and offcourse the fact that Turkye isnt European. That small part of European Turkye should be given to Greece.

And i dont want Mr George I'm-an-idiot Bush to say stupid things like "The EU should give you a date blah blah"

Don't forget the rather large border with Iran and Syria.

Doesn't change the fact that border controls within the EU are up to member states.

Turkye is a muslim country that was reformed by Mustapha Kemal, hecreated a rule where the army would intervene if a Muslim (extremist) party rises to power.
The last time the Turkish army revolted against their muslim leaders was in 1982.
Offcourse if Turkye enters the EU, the army will lose lots of that power and become completely controled by that government. The army will no longer be able to revolt against Muslim extremist politicians.
Result:(and my prof at University said the same) a muslim party (AK?) will become radical and thousands(millions) of Turks will support it. A new muslim extremist nation will appear on the worldmap, Terrorists wont have to pass the Iraqi border, the new terrorists will most likely be Turks themselves.

Thats a reason for not letting them in and offcourse the fact that Turkye isnt European. That small part of European Turkye should be given to Greece.

And i dont want Mr George I'm-an-idiot Bush to say stupid things like "The EU should give you a date blah blah"

How can a Tajik say that Turkey is not European?

The shape of buildings and the shape of the language are not relevant. What is relevant is the shape of the state and its relation to its citizens.

The point of the EU is to prevent countries from taking parts of other countries.

If ever an extremist islamic government rose in Turkey, it would likely be ostracised from the EU. Witness Jorge Heider (sp?) in Austria.

There are plenty of terrorists in Turkey already. And UK and Spain and so on and so on.

In what sense is Turkey a non-european country?
In the sense that their culture is an oriental one and that an area more then twice the size of Germany, over 780,000 square Km is in Asia.

Is it simply racism that makes you think admitting an islamic/arabic country is suicide?
:rolleyes: .

Spain has a proud islamic/arabic history by the way.
I was under the impression that they expelled them once they took Greneda.

The economic burden of turkey won't be greater than that of the last 10 countries admitted put together.
No, it will be even bigger.

15 years ago Ireland was an economic burden on the EU. It currently has the 3rd highest GDP per capita in the EU.
So? Ireland is an European country. So what are you trying to say?


What happenned to the great waves of poles, slovenians, balkans etc that were supposed to immigrate en masse? Where are they? London still appears to have more australians than slavs.
Mostly in Berlin and the Netherlands.

How would mass immigration destroy the EU from the inside? The EU would still contain the same people even if lots of Turks moved to France, Spain and Germany. And the Turks would still be outnumbered.
Have you ever been to Germany in areas with a dense Turkish population?




Where did you get your views? I'm astounded that anyone under the age of 60 can vote for UKIP and that anyone with an IQ over 60 can vote for the BNP.
Whats that supposed to mean? I don't vote in British elections.

How can a Tajik say that Turkey is not European?

The shape of buildings and the shape of the language are not relevant. What is relevant is the shape of the state and its relation to its citizens.

The point of the EU is to prevent countries from taking parts of other countries.

If ever an extremist islamic government rose in Turkey, it would likely be ostracised from the EU. Witness Jorge Heider (sp?) in Austria.

There are plenty of terrorists in Turkey already. And UK and Spain and so on and so on.

Dunno about a Tajik, but as Belgian i say Turkey is not part of Europe. If an extremist party rose to power it could whatever it wanted and noone is going to oppose it (Haider got two ministers (one from Belgium) against, the rest just didnt care, Haiders government fell because it couldnt govern properly, dont expect a governmental failure like that in a muslim nation).
And i just gave you a view on how the shape state and its relation to its citizens in the future

Slavs dont come to the West in waves because nothing has changed basicly, they still need a passport to get here. And England is not part of Schengen, therefore British commonwealth people(Australians) can get in with their passport and slavs cannot.

http://www.medea.be/index.html?doc=1296&PHPSESSID=7170ccf86fe5519298ca775d65ed92bc
or just www.medea.be
endless source for articles concerning the issue.

not looking at all of ur responses i must say 1 thing, you do not know a lot about the kurdish population. They have been causing terrorism in the nation, they have also a reputation of being very conservative and are known as a repressive group. in otherwords they refuse to move society forward, and if it were up to kurds the human rights in that nation would be set back 100 years. i was there and there was no bad human rights violations. that is all huey as is, but i think the real reason why nations are afraid to admit turkey is the that the main religion there is Islam, although when i was there no one cared about it at all, kind of like the USA, but even were are more religious. why would the EU be afraid of Turkey also coming in? large numbers of migrant workers is the answer as well. Turkey is the 2nd largest military contributer in terms of numbers to NATO. all of these things and more show its than just a simple 'yes ur in or not.'

oh 1 more thing, turkey is very very European. like it or not they are. not only that Turkey's military has a reputation know for preventing extremest groups, they have done it before when it comes to Communists and Religious extremists, and yes corrupt leadership.

Ireland has the third largest GDP? Sources please...

And England is not part of Schengen, therefore British commonwealth people(Australians) can get in with their passport and slavs cannot.
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I'm pretty sure someone from a Slavic country can ENTER the UK...

Ireland has the third largest GDP? Sources please...

I said GDP per capita.

www.nationmaster.com

for all your evidentiary needs.

And England is not part of Schengen, therefore British commonwealth people(Australians) can get in with their passport and slavs cannot.
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I'm pretty sure someone from a Slavic country can ENTER the UK...

Of course they can. All EU citizens can enter the UK freely.

Claiming that Turkey should not be admitted to the EU because it is not a european country is simply racist nonsense. Geographically it is largely in Asia if you agree with the conventional view that Asia starts at the straits of whatever. As an englishman I'm used to having a more political than geographic view of where nations are, eg Gibraltar and the Malvinas.

If Turkey is admitted to the EU it becomes a European country.

If the person i mistook for a Tajik is in fact a Belgian - how can you be so ridiculous about nationality when you are a Belgian? How many languages in Belgium? How many national identites in Belgium?

Claiming that Turkey should not be admitted to the EU because it is not a european country is simply racist nonsense.
No. Trying to label those who don't believe Turkey is a European country as racists is simply nonsense.

Have you ever been to Germany in areas with a dense Turkish population?


No. I've been to Britain in areas with dense Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Indian and Chinese populations. I love it.

No. Trying to label those who don't believe Turkey is a European country as racists is simply nonsense.

I didn't label them as such. I said that not wanting to admit Turkey to the EU because it is not a European country is racist nonsense.

Ireland has the third largest GDP? Sources please...
Finding GDP information is a ten second job on google. Requiring evidence is fine, but you have a computer and you obviously know how to use it so you might want to simple things yourself.

"GWB is president in the USA? Sources please..."

I didn't label them as such. I said that not wanting to admit Turkey to the EU because it is not a European country is racist nonsense.
And by that logic you label those who believe Turkey is a non European country as racists. And thats nonsense.

Aww...
Someone give the poor Turks a break.
They are muslim in religion, but not genetically arabs. The arabic nations have looked down their noses at these guys forever, but the europeans still treat them like arabic muslims. They have a highly westernized society compared to other muslim nations. Sure, there are civil rights issues, but they were still the Ottoman Empire only 90 years ago. By comparison, they are miles above many "respected" arabic muslim countries in that regard. Cut them some slack and let them in the game. Leave them as pariahs at your peril. And how is it bad to show support for a fiercely secular muslim country?
It sounds like a good idea to me.

I do not approve of adding Turkey to the EU. The governments should do a referendum for this in their countries and see what the people want. The unilateral actions by our own German government in this regard are surely not liked by the German population. Turkey needs to fulfil the requirements to join the EU before it is admitted, not the other way around.

Turkey is also a completely different culture from most European cultures (German, French, English, Danish, Belgian, etc are very closely related, had to suffer through 2 world wars, learned from each other and exchanged culture with each other). I cannot say that I want muslim religion here or that I want women or gays being discriminated against. Turkey is not European - neither geographically nor culturally. I can foresee serious problems if Turkey is admitted in at all, and especially serious issues if it is admitted in within the next 15 years. This big country can not remove it's problems this quickly.

Aww...
Someone give the poor Turks a break.
They are muslim in religion, but not genetically arabs. The arabic nations have looked down their noses at these guys forever, but the europeans still treat them like arabic muslims.
WTF is this suppose to mean?

They have a highly westernized society compared to other muslim nations.
So do Japan and Singapore. But no one would think of adding them to the EU.

And by that logic you label those who believe Turkey is a non European country as racists. And thats nonsense.

That isn't the same logic at all.

Whether Turkey is a european country or not is in one sense a matter of geographical fact and in another sense it is a matter of cultural interpretation.

Whether a country that can be called not european in either of those senses should be refused entry to the EU *simply because of the fact of geographic or cultural difference* is either entirely baseless or racist.

It is entirely baseless if the problem is one of geography. If a large part of turkey is in the physical continent of Asia, so what? What actual difference to EU membership does this actually make?

If it is the cultural difference that is the problem, you are saying "They cannot be in EU because they do not share European culture". You aren't saying what the differences are. You aren't saying what is bad about the Turkish asian culture. You are only saying "They are different so they can't come in". This is racism.

So do Japan and Singapore. But no one would think of adding them to the EU.

If they wanted to join, why not?

Turkey is also a completely different culture from most European cultures (German, French, English, Danish, Belgian, etc are very closely related, had to suffer through 2 world wars, learned from each other and exchanged culture with each other). I cannot say that I want muslim religion here or that I want women or gays being discriminated against. Turkey is not European - neither geographically nor culturally. I can foresee serious problems if Turkey is admitted in at all, and especially serious issues if it is admitted in within the next 15 years. This big country can not remove it's problems this quickly.

Do you think Turkey did not suffer in two world wars?
Do you think muslim religion isn't already in Europe?
Do you think gays are discriminated against in Turkey more than in Spain or Greece or Poland or Slovenia?

If you think the answer to any of these questions is yes, then you need to learn more about European and Turkish culture before you say that the two are different.

If they wanted to join, why not?
Not European countries.

Do you think Turkey did not suffer in two world wars?
Since they stayed neutral throughout the entire duration of WW2, until the last days when they declared war on Germany, no. But that was just a formality to get into the UN.
Do you think muslim religion isn't already in Europe?
Not in this magnitude not.
Do you think gays are discriminated against in Turkey more than in Spain or Greece or Poland or Slovenia?
Yes. I had lot's of Turks in my class when I was in highschool. And they proudly told about how they used to chase gays through the streets like game.

That isn't the same logic at all.

Whether Turkey is a european country or not is in one sense a matter of geographical fact and in another sense it is a matter of cultural interpretation.

Whether a country that can be called not european in either of those senses should be refused entry to the EU *simply because of the fact of geographic or cultural difference* is either entirely baseless or racist.
My, my. It's racist. Nice way to argument. Everything you don't like you just label as racist.

It is entirely baseless if the problem is one of geography. If a large part of turkey is in the physical continent of Asia, so what? What actual difference to EU membership does this actually make?
It's the European Union. Not the European Union plus everyone else who'd like to join.

If it is the cultural difference that is the problem, you are saying "They cannot be in EU because they do not share European culture". You aren't saying what the differences are. You aren't saying what is bad about the Turkish asian culture. You are only saying "They are different so they can't come in". This is racism.
This is bullshit. Theres nothing bad about Turkish culture. It's just not compatibal with European culture. As all the gettho like areas in German cities proof. People trying to get their way pulling the racism card to shut opponents up is just pathetic.

Do you think Turkey did not suffer in two world wars?
Do you think muslim religion isn't already in Europe?
Do you think gays are discriminated against in Turkey more than in Spain or Greece or Poland or Slovenia?

If you think the answer to any of these questions is yes, then you need to learn more about European and Turkish culture before you say that the two are different.
1. No
2. Yes, but not as prominent as in Turkey. We can "contain" them ;)
3. Yes.

Btw, Spain recently allowed Gay Marriage. How about it in Turkey? Nada. They are still discriminating against women. Wake up man, we do not need this in the EU!

Do you think Turkey did not suffer in two world wars? lol. they were neutral in ww2. so NO they did not suffer.
why do you think there have been so many turkish "guest workers" eh?

Do you think muslim religion isn't already in Europe? it is cause of this foolish idea of multiculturalism that america forced on europe.

Do you think gays are discriminated against in Turkey more than in Spain or Greece or Poland or Slovenia? any turkish gays here? no. so we do not know. and it doesnt matter anyway.

If you think the answer to any of these questions is yes, then you need to learn more about European and Turkish culture before you say that the two are different.
fact is if you *want* to learn more about turkish culture, you should move to turkey. thats the way it should be. otherwise you should think over your strange ideals. :rolleyes:

Btw, Spain recently allowed Gay Marriage.
Oh yeah. Forgot about that.

In what sense is Turkey a non-european country?

In the rather common sense that it's not in Europe! Turkey is in the Middle East, its culture is more similar to that of its Middle Easter neighbours than to that of its European neighbours.

The Turkish record on human rights and political reforms are dreadful, and they should not be admitted until they meet the entry criteria.

The plan however is for admission in 15 years, a lot can happen in that time. Romania is more worrying however, as they are expected to join in 2007, and have a human rights record at least as bad as Turkey!

I think the EU should concentrate on sorting out the Balkan states before involving itself in the Middle East.

I am not labelling things that i disagree with as racism.
You are saying that Turkish culture is too bad to be in the EU. That is racism.

What does not being a European country have to do with it? If you won't admit Japan to the EU because it is not European, you have to explain your actions.

Turkey incidentally has a thriving gay community in Istanbul, and transvestites and transsexuals are acceptable in society. There are European descended people all over Europe who victimise and abuse homosexuals.

When I was in high school I knew white British people who used to boast about attacking homosexuals, and non-whites, and non-british europeans. Are you proposing that we kick out of the EU all countries where people perform racist attacks?

Bush must be really happy to see that there are so many Europeans who work on his little conspiracy to destroy europe without a single american bullet.
i dont feel the need to explain every reason again for the XXXXX. time. just look up what gigatron and jever said.
germany would go into a civil war with a another horde of turks in about 6-8 years. there have been enough professors who share the same opinion as i do myself. i live in a area with lots of turks, the Ruhrgebiet. and it already feels like you live in istanbul here. you only hear turkish on the streets. we must take care that this muslims leave the the country sooner or later or we will have a muslim controlled area, sharia laws and whatever else...and everyone who can afford it moves away already from this shithole. the natives at last, the turks move here more and more.

and further it would give the EU the deathstrike.

ah damn. ill stop my rambling, its useless anyway. we are doomed! :headbang:

it is cause of this foolish idea of multiculturalism that america forced on europe.
Multiculturalism is foolish? Oh yes, that will be why the UK is such a terrible place to live. And of course the EU only has one culture because Spain, Greece, Slovenia and Ireland all have the same culture.


fact is if you *want* to learn more about turkish culture, you should move to turkey. thats the way it should be. otherwise you should think over your strange ideals. :rolleyes:

It is not a fact that I should move to Turkey to learn about Turkish culture, it is your opinion. I think that anyone who wants to say that Turkey and Europe have incompatible cultures should at least know something about the culture of Turkey before they say that.

Do you really think that it is strange to want as many people as possible to live under a peaceful and prosperous government?

Bush must be really happy to see that there are so many Europeans who work on his little conspiracy to destroy europe without a single american bullet.
i dont feel the need to explain every reason again for the XXXXX. time. just look up what gigatron and jever said.
germany would go into a civil war with a another horde of turks in about 6-8 years. there have been enough professors who share the same opinion as i do myself. i live in a area with lots of turks, the Ruhrgebiet. and it already feels like you live in istanbul here. you only hear turkish on the streets. we must take care that this muslims leave the the country sooner or later or we will have a muslim controlled area, sharia laws and whatever else...and everyone who can afford it moves away already from this shithole. the natives at last, the turks move here more and more.

and further it would give the EU the deathstrike.

ah damn. ill stop my rambling, its useless anyway. we are doomed! :headbang:

So you still actually have only one reason - that so many Turks will move to germany, and there will be a civil war in Germany? And too many people will speak Turkish? And they will eat couscous or something instead of bratwurst? And this is a bad thing? And you aren't racist?

And I'm sure Bush is thrilled that there are anti-muslim reactionary bigots in Europe who don't want Turkey to join the EU because they don't want people to talk Turkish on their streets.

Do you think Turkey did not suffer in two world wars?
Oddly enough, I don't think Turkey suffered in two world wars. Turkey suffered for its part in the Ottoman Empire when it collapsed, but didn't do jack in WW2

Do you think muslim religion isn't already in Europe?
I appreciate that it is, however there is no Muslim state in Europe, they are all majority Christian or Secular. The exception is/was Bosnia, but look what happened there, I don't think they'll be joining the EU any time soon.

Do you think gays are discriminated against in Turkey more than in Spain or Greece or Poland or Slovenia?
Yes I do. I think that a country which stones women to death for adultery is not likely to tolerate homosexuality. Gay marriages are legal in some European countries. Homosexuals at least enjoy protection within the law in the rest of Europe, even if societies are less tolerant of them.

If you think the answer to any of these questions is yes, then you need to learn more about European and Turkish culture before you say that the two are different.
Hmm, I think it may be you who has a bit of learning still to do.

Multiculturalism is foolish? Oh yes, that will be why the UK is such a terrible place to live. And of course the EU only has one culture because Spain, Greece, Slovenia and Ireland all have the same culture.



It is not a fact that I should move to Turkey to learn about Turkish culture, it is your opinion. I think that anyone who wants to say that Turkey and Europe have incompatible cultures should at least know something about the culture of Turkey before they say that.

Do you really think that it is strange to want as many people as possible to live under a peaceful and prosperous government?
The cultures of Spain, Greece, Slovenia and Ireland are all in their own respective cultural regions (read: countries). What we are afraid of is, the domination of our own cultures (and each EU country has some sort of national culture) by muslim/turkish culture. We are happy with our countries the way they are (or unhappy), we do not want more immigrants than we already have to intensify the problems we already have.

Dunno about a Tajik, but as Belgian i say Turkey is not part of Europe. If an extremist party rose to power it could whatever it wanted and noone is going to oppose it (Haider got two ministers (one from Belgium) against, the rest just didnt care, Haiders government fell because it couldnt govern properly, dont expect a governmental failure like that in a muslim nation).
And i just gave you a view on how the shape state and its relation to its citizens in the future

Slavs dont come to the West in waves because nothing has changed basicly, they still need a passport to get here. And England is not part of Schengen, therefore British commonwealth people(Australians) can get in with their passport and slavs cannot.

Just to set you straight with some facts... it was never Haiders government & the whole EU was opposing Austria with Haiders party in the governemt

But the ones who opposed them most were Louis Michel and the French europeminister at that time (and I believe still), I'll give you that.

But apart from that they are still in the government, although less strong than before.

BTW Haider is for admitting Turkey into the EU

Multiculturalism is foolish? Oh yes, that will be why the UK is such a terrible place to live. And of course the EU only has one culture because Spain, Greece, Slovenia and Ireland all have the same culture. it hasnt. it has many, and for each of them there is a country.

and if you think the UK is such a bad place to live, why dont you move away? you seem to like turkey, so why not move there.

It is not a fact that I should move to Turkey to learn about Turkish culture, it is your opinion. I think that anyone who wants to say that Turkey and Europe have incompatible cultures should at least know something about the culture of Turkey before they say that. i dont need to know anything about turkish culture to say that it belongs to turkey and not somewhere else. how can you come to such a strange idea, anyway? why do you think is britain called britain and france france?

Do you really think that it is strange to want as many people as possible to live under a peaceful and prosperous government?
no not really. in general its the same i want.
i want a peaceful country, where i feel at home. it would no longer be peacefull, or a home with too many turks. they are different, and have proven to be uh "nicht integrationsfähig/und oder willig" sorry i dont know how to translate it.

So you still actually have only one reason - that so many Turks will move to germany, and there will be a civil war in Germany? And too many people will speak Turkish? And they will eat couscous or something instead of bratwurst? And this is a bad thing? And you aren't racist?
think what you want, it up to you :rolleyes:

first of all: i think it's the right decision to make turkey a member of the european union. but to make it clear: at the moment the discussion in the european parlament is not about wether turkey should become a member but if the eu should negotiate with turkey about the conditions that might allow turkey to join the EU in the future.

there are good chances for turkey that negotiations will take place although there is a huge oppostion on that matter.

to give an islamic country the chance stay alongside with the western world would improve bilateral relations between nations and provide international strains.

human rights _are_ a matter that needs to be discussed for sure but i think especially the united states shouldn't judge on this issue. it is well known that there still is torture and opression of minorities going on, especially in the eastern part of turkey. well...the us is torturing prisoners as well. not in their own country as it is forbidden in their constitution but outside the borders of the US in allied countries that don't have a law that prohibits torture...

there are several issues that need to be changed in turkey but it's the right way to welcome them as an equal partner. it's a symbol of international co-operation that will improve peace between nations and makes the world a safer place.

you can either confront nations or you can try to integrate them. you can either start wars that divide the world and cause aggression or you can try to prevend conflicts by fair judgement and tolerance and cultural equality.

thoughts of a german european.

Do you think Turkey did not suffer in two world wars?
Do you think muslim religion isn't already in Europe?
Do you think gays are discriminated against in Turkey more than in Spain or Greece or Poland or Slovenia?


1) Yes, Turkey did get affected with both wars, dont say we werent in WW2, its a world war ffs sake, every country got effected.
2) There is Muslim religion everywhere in Europe, whether you like it or not.
3)Give me a break, we have just been out of Extremist Islamic Leadership regime for only 80 years, where women used to be covered, and all that bullshit. Gays are new to our society, and yes, people look awkward towards them, but yet they are recognized as part of Turkish populace.

You say we should stop oppressing the Kurds....this is the same deal as in Britian with Pakistanis and Indians. British dont want them, they speak their own language, and have their own culture, and have the risk of bearing terrorist groups within them...Kurds are the same for us but with an additional thing...they train terrorists themselves.

And we are not much different from you lot Europeans. You cant really relate us to other Muslim countries. We do not discriminate women that dont wear scarves, instead, there is slight discrimination of women wearing scarves. I could keep on going, but i have to go for now, and yes, Im a Turk, if you havent recognized from statements above.

1) Yes, Turkey did get affected with both wars, dont say we werent in WW2, its a world war ffs sake, every country got effected.
2) There is Muslim religion everywhere in Europe, whether you like it or not.
3)Give me a break, we have just been out of Extremist Islamic Leadership regime for only 80 years, where women used to be covered, and all that bullshit. Gays are new to our society, and yes, people look awkward towards them, but yet they are recognized as part of Turkish populace.

You say we should stop oppressing the Kurds....this is the same deal as in Britian with Pakistanis and Indians. British dont want them, they speak their own language, and have their own culture, and have the risk of bearing terrorist groups within them...Kurds are the same for us but with an additional thing...they train terrorists themselves.

And we are not much different from you lot Europeans. You cant really relate us to other Muslim countries. We do not discriminate women that dont wear scarves, instead, there is slight discrimination of women wearing scarves. I could keep on going, but i have to go for now, and yes, Im a Turk, if you havent recognized from statements above.

sorry im in a hurry, therefore some of my statements might not make sense, will open it up later

What we are afraid of is, the domination of our own cultures (and each EU country has some sort of national culture) by muslim/turkish culture. We are happy with our countries the way they are (or unhappy), we do not want more immigrants than we already have to intensify the problems we already have.

So your national culture is so weak that the Turks can destroy it just by moving in? And it is so awful that children of your nation will abandon your national culture and take up the Turkish culture? Wow.

Do you think it is impossible that an immigrant from Turkey will start a successful business employing many people who were born in your country and are not muslims?

Do you think it is impossible that an immigrant from the UK or France could go to your country and claim welfare and commit crimes?

sorry im in a hurry, therefore some of my statements might not make sense, will open it up later

Actually they are perfectly easy to understand. I don't think UK treatment of ethnically Indian UK citizens is anything like Turkish treatment of Kurds. They aren't oppressed. Of course there are right wing politicians and individuals who are racist, but that isn't the rule.

I am not labelling things that i disagree with as racism.
You are saying that Turkish culture is too bad to be in the EU. That is racism.

What does not being a European country have to do with it? If you won't admit Japan to the EU because it is not European, you have to explain your actions.

Turkey incidentally has a thriving gay community in Istanbul, and transvestites and transsexuals are acceptable in society. There are European descended people all over Europe who victimise and abuse homosexuals.

When I was in high school I knew white British people who used to boast about attacking homosexuals, and non-whites, and non-british europeans. Are you proposing that we kick out of the EU all countries where people perform racist attacks?

hey man how you doing?

yes there are gays in turkey. its even lega by law, or at least not illegal to be gay. You would not be allowed in the army though (most countries are like that), you actually fall into the same catergory as disabled people. Classified as 'rotten'. But disabled people can do other work instead of military service, gays are not allowed. Gays actually need to present pornographic photos and submit to a rectal exam to get out of the army. ouch.
They are also not allowed to work for the government, and have no protection from being fired from a job.
Bit harsher than in spain, which legally allows gay marriages.

Quote from Ruissa:

You say we should stop oppressing the Kurds....this is the same deal as in Britian with Pakistanis and Indians. British dont want them, they speak their own language, and have their own culture, and have the risk of bearing terrorist groups within them...Kurds are the same for us but with an additional thing...they train terrorists themselves.

Please don't paint the British with a broad stroke as people who dislike and are against Asian communities, and as Far white extremists, it's ignorant.

Ah yes, The Turkish treatment of the Kurds. Second only to Saddam they way the Kurds were, and still are oppressed by the Turkish government.

Torture, killings, simply because they are Kurdish.

I don't particulary care if Kurdish people's values are considered backwards as either you or someone else said, it is certainly not an excuse for your government and military and police to have a policy of torturing and killing them.

Just like Hitler's excuse that Jewish people were considered backwards and a threat to the German values, thus tortured and killed , it is an excuse without any merit whatsoever that shall be treated for what it is: A disgusting non-excuse to torture, kill and maim.

So your national culture is so weak that the Turks can destroy it just by moving in? And it is so awful that children of your nation will abandon your national culture and take up the Turkish culture? Wow.

If enough move in and set up their cultural "pockets", yes, they can push out German culture from parts of German cities. Much like "Chinatown" we'll get to have "Turkeytown".


Do you think it is impossible that an immigrant from Turkey will start a successful business employing many people who were born in your country and are not muslims?

It is not impossible. However unlikely. Turkish immigrants "shine" by being the majority (over 20% of non-German criminals, trend rising) of non-German murderers, rapists, robbers, drug smugglers (http://www.bka.de/lageberichte/rg/2003/bundeslagebild_rg2003.pdf) and non-Germans generally make up a large portion (over 30%) of all criminals here. Adding Turkey to the EU will not reduce this trend. It is logical to assume that the cultural differences, differences in living standards or age and social structure are the main reason for this and evidence of a lacking integration of immigrants.

http://www.bka.de/pks/pks2002/p_2_3_3.pdf

Furthermore Turks make up the largest group of drug smugglers, illegal forms of prostitution, illegal gambling, and stock fraud in organized crime of non-Germans.

http://www.bka.de/lageberichte/ok/2003kf/lagebild_ok_2003_kurzlage.pdf

Do you think it is impossible that an immigrant from the UK or France could go to your country and claim welfare and commit crimes?
It is possible, however with 0.9% - 1.2% of the criminal statistics, French are a neglectable factor of criminal activity. British do not show up in the statistics at all. Fact is and fact remains, Turks make up the most prominent group of non-German criminals in our country. We do not want more of this. The next closer EU-member nation that has some sort of relevance in our criminal statistics is Italy.

Writing from the far western end of Europe (and not an EU member although we are involwed in EEA, NATO and Schengen) I feel the Turkey should not be let into the EU.

There is the cultural and geographical thing. Not the biggest of issues but not to be dismissed either.

Biggest reason is economical. The new members are a financial baggage for the EU (not counting the financial problems that were there to begin with)and will be for a while. That will change but until then...

The EU has enough problem right now and a bringing in Turkey while there are so many unsolved issues (economics, constitution to name a few) among the others isn't the best of ideas. You must not forget that Turkey was invited into NATO because it would provide a strategically important location while facing the "evil" soviets and at the same time deny the soviets improved access to the Meditarenean countries.

Think about it...

Writing from the far western end of Europe (and not an EU member although we are involwed in EEA, NATO and Schengen) I feel the Turkey should not be let into the EU.

There is the cultural and geographical thing. Not the biggest of issues but not to be dismissed either.

Biggest reason is economical. The new members are a financial baggage for the EU (not counting the financial problems that were there to begin with)and will be for a while. That will change but until then...

The EU has enough problem right now and a bringing in Turkey while there are so many unsolved issues (economics, constitution to name a few) among the others isn't the best of ideas. You must not forget that Turkey was invited into NATO because it would provide a strategically important location while facing the "evil" soviets and at the same time deny the soviets improved access to the Meditarenean countries.

Think about it...

west of europe, not part of EU? you norwegian or swiss? I believe both are part og the schengen agreement

If enough move in and set up their cultural "pockets", yes, they can push out German culture from parts of German cities. Much like "Chinatown" we'll get to have "Turkeytown".


It is not impossible. However unlikely. Turkish immigrants "shine" by being the majority (over 20% of non-German criminals, trend rising) of non-German murderers, rapists, robbers, drug smugglers (http://www.bka.de/lageberichte/rg/2003/bundeslagebild_rg2003.pdf) and non-Germans generally make up a large portion (over 30%) of all criminals here. Adding Turkey to the EU will not reduce this trend. It is logical to assume that the cultural differences, differences in living standards or age and social structure are the main reason for this and evidence of a lacking integration of immigrants.

http://www.bka.de/pks/pks2002/p_2_3_3.pdf

Furthermore Turks make up the largest group of drug smugglers, illegal forms of prostitution, illegal gambling, and stock fraud in organized crime of non-Germans.

http://www.bka.de/lageberichte/ok/2003kf/lagebild_ok_2003_kurzlage.pdf

It is possible, however with 0.9% - 1.2% of the criminal statistics, French are a neglectable factor of criminal activity. British do not show up in the statistics at all. Fact is and fact remains, Turks make up the most prominent group of non-German criminals in our country. We do not want more of this. The next closer EU-member nation that has some sort of relevance in our criminal statistics is Italy.

So if I took out "Turks" and replaced it with "Jews", how would the above information sound? like it was from the 1930s? What is wrong with Turkeytown? Chinatown rules. I'd love there to be a Germanytown in my town - you're welcome to come and set one up.

What is the relationship between percentage of German residents who are Turkish and percentage of crimes in Germany committed by Turks?

So if I took out "Turks" and replaced it with "Jews", how would the above information sound? like it was from the 1930s? your point is?
What is wrong with Turkeytown? Chinatown rules. I'd love there to be a Germanytown in my town - you're welcome to come and set one up.

i slowly get what you want. america!
you want america in europe. their crime statistic, murder rate, overcrowding prisons, LA riots everywhere, and their loss of values other than pure wealth. would you like that?

It is not impossible. However unlikely. Turkish immigrants "shine" by being the majority (over 20% of non-German criminals, trend rising) of non-German murderers, rapists, robbers, drug smugglers (http://www.bka.de/lageberichte/rg/2003/bundeslagebild_rg2003.pdf) and non-Germans generally make up a large portion (over 30%) of all criminals here. Adding Turkey to the EU will not reduce this trend. It is logical to assume that the cultural differences, differences in living standards or age and social structure are the main reason for this and evidence of a lacking integration of immigrants.
http://www.bka.de/pks/pks2002/p_2_3_3.pdf
Furthermore Turks make up the largest group of drug smugglers, illegal forms of prostitution, illegal gambling, and stock fraud in organized crime of non-Germans.
http://www.bka.de/lageberichte/ok/2003kf/lagebild_ok_2003_kurzlage.pdf
It is possible, however with 0.9% - 1.2% of the criminal statistics, French are a neglectable factor of criminal activity. British do not show up in the statistics at all. Fact is and fact remains, Turks make up the most prominent group of non-German criminals in our country. We do not want more of this. The next closer EU-member nation that has some sort of relevance in our criminal statistics is Italy.
thanks for explaining my point earlier. digging out this links for example was what i was just too lazy to do. thanks :D

(hab vorhin auf dem nachhauseweg mal darauf geachtet und wenigstens 50% der leute die ich gesehen habe waren türken. erschreckend wenn man mal wirklich drauf achtet! nach kreuzberg wird das ruhrgebiet das nächste ghetto, versprochen.)

Look, the Germans are a racist people, always have been. Don't antagonise them, or we (we being sane, tolerant people) will have to kick their arses... again.

/flame on!

It is not a fact that I should move to Turkey to learn about Turkish culture, it is your opinion. I think that anyone who wants to say that Turkey and Europe have incompatible cultures should at least know something about the culture of Turkey before they say that.
Yes, and why do you not begin yourself with doing so? Kemalism and democracy are incompatible. The reforms of Turkey (de-islamisation and secularisation) was only possible due to an authoritarian rule backed by the military. There were on numerous occassions attempts by islamists to seize power. Kemal Mendres who was hanged in 1961 and the islamists party of Erbakan who was in power for two years in the 1990s up until his party got banned. Mr. Erdogan was a member of that party. He is an islamists and stated that were clearly in 1999 when he said that the minarets are our swords. He is undermining the laicistic principles of Turkey. So far the military is containing those tendencies.
What would happen if the military gets contained though? Just think about it? But that would be the result of Turkish EU membership.
The attempt to criminalise adultery is just one sign about the strong islamists tendencies in Turkey. Just think about it, if the military would loose all power to contain those? The Islamists have almost a two-third majority in the Turkish parliament.
Really - adding this Turkey into the EU is a bad idea. It is the same as the idea of adding todays Russia into it.
They don´t fit to the EU.
It would be the end of the EU in its current form. The EU is not just NAFTA. Nafta has only three freedoms : capital, goods and services. The EU has four: freedom of capital, goods, services and labour. Every EU citizen can apply for work in another EU country (also the new members from 2011 onward).
That would not be applyable to Turkey (as the EU itself said). Member states would have the right to regulate labour migration from Turkey PERMANENTLY. That would only apply to Turkey. You could call that membership of second class. And that would be necessary since Turkey is a country with a migration deficit and an exploding population: today 70 million, 2015 80 million, 2030 100 million. Not to mention the social situation in huge parts of the country. Freedom of labour (into the EU) would need to be cut out.
The EU would disintegrate and degenerate into a pure free-trade area. I don´t want that.
I´m all for cooperation with Turkey. But an EU membership is not the right formate - since it would as a matter of fact be not a complete membership anyway due to the Turkish exclusion from the labour market. That would - as I mentioned - only apply to Turkey. That is not a real full membership. We should stop lying to Turkey.
We should be honest to it and say: we can cooperate with you but you don´t fit into the EU at least for an indefinate period.
We offer you a "Privileged partnership" under which we offer you full cooperation and integration in the economic field and the security field but not a full membership and - of course no freedom of labour (which isn´t intended anyway).

The membership offer now is a betrayl since it would not be a membership in the EU as it is today but only to a free-trade pact. And the EU today is more than that (which it was in 1957 when it was called EEC (European Economic Community)).
That can be done outside of the EU via a privileged partnership and EFTA (European free trade area). For that Turkey doesn´t need an EU membership. And more than that Europe is not willing and capable to offer Turkey anyway.
IT is at the end a huge betrayl and a huge amount of hypocrisy in that process.
I don´t like it. I´m for telling the Turks the truth.
And that it is clear: They won´t be accepted as part of Europe by most Europeans and they won´t get free movement of labour. And they won´t get all the money from the EU they are hopeing for simply because the EU is not capable of doing that and the richer memberstates Germany, Netherland, Sweden, France and the UK are not willing to pay more for it and the poorer once in Southern and Eastern Europe are not willing to give up subsidies for them.
Adding Turkey into the EU is like saying: 1 + 1 = 3.
That simply doesn´t work. Not today and not in the foreseable future.

[QUOTE=Anthil]Talks will start soon in order to admit Turkey into the E.U.

I'd like to know your opinion on this issue. How about admitting an islamic country into the Union? QUOTE]

Turkey is not Islamic. It is Secular.

I think Turkey joining the EU is still a long way off because of their human rights record. It is improving, but very, very slowly. If they can improve upon that, then why not. Until then, they should (and will) stay out.

/flame on!
Shure, Turkey is no problem, Arabia is a place of peace and prosperity. Stalinists Russia was a wonderful place and Kambodschea under Pol Pot is the ideal for the world.
And Turkey has never commited a genocide on the Armenians which killed 2 million Armenians.
And there are no problems between Turks and Kurds.
That is the way one has to look at the world. Just demonize Japan and Germany and ignore everything else.

Look, the Germans are a racist people, always have been. Don't antagonise them, or we (we being sane, tolerant people) will have to kick their arses... again.

/flame on!

if all you can do is make racist remarks, why not kindly piss off. thank you

Aww...
Someone give the poor Turks a break.
They are muslim in religion, but not genetically arabs. The arabic nations have looked down their noses at these guys forever, but the europeans still treat them like arabic muslims. They have a highly westernized society compared to other muslim nations. Sure, there are civil rights issues, but they were still the Ottoman Empire only 90 years ago. By comparison, they are miles above many "respected" arabic muslim countries in that regard. Cut them some slack and let them in the game. Leave them as pariahs at your peril. And how is it bad to show support for a fiercely secular muslim country?
It sounds like a good idea to me.
That is indeed the Turkish problem. They are not part of the Arab world and they are not part of Europe.
A bit simular to Japan which is antagonized by China and Korea due to historic and cultural reasons.
Would the United States invite Japan to join NAFTA? Would it allow freedom of movement for Japanese into the US?
And what is with Mexico in that respect? Even a better example. Yes, it is member of NAFTA, but there is no freedom of movement from Mexico into the US.
If the US is willing to accept Mexico as its 51 rst state (or opens completly the border to it) it would be credible in its pledge for Turkish membership. Since it isn´t it is completly incredible.

How can a Tajik say that Turkey is not European?

The shape of buildings and the shape of the language are not relevant. What is relevant is the shape of the state and its relation to its citizens.
As a Non-European you should let us in Europe decide what is relevant or not. That is not your business. We don´t tell you how you should conduct you relationship with Mexiko or Honduras either.
Secondly: Turkey has much more in common with Tajikistan and Central Asia than with Europe. That is a cultural and historic fact.

What happenned to the great waves of poles, slovenians, balkans etc that were supposed to immigrate en masse? Where are they? London still appears to have more australians than slavs.
First of all Britain would not be the main focus point for such migration. That would be the next-door neighbours Austria and Germany.
Secondly: Labour migration can be banned up till 2011. Austria and Germany are going to exercise that right till then. So your conclusion is moot since we are not even in the year 2011.
Thirdly. The social situation in Turkey is much worse, especially in rural areas. Aside of the Kurd issue which would cause a massive migration wave or Kurds and Turks.
That comes together with the fact that Turkey has an exploding populations.
Today 70 million people, in 2015 80 million people and in 2030 100 million people. No other country has such a population development.
As a matter of fact the EU itself says that it wants to give the member states the right to permanently regulate Turkish migration. That means that the member states can ban it as long as they chose and reinstate it if they consider it that it is needed. That is only the case for Turkey.
It is therefore a membership of second class. It is dishonest. It is better to offer Turkey a privileged partnership instead since it never (or at least for an indefinate time) can be completly integrated in todays EU. The EU would disintegrate into a pure free-trade pact, the freedom of labour would need to be removed for Turkey permanently. That is dishonest: it would be honest to say to Turkey that we can offer you only a privileged partnership instead of giving it a reduced "full" membership.

if all you can do is make racist remarks, why not kindly piss off. thank you

All that I was doing was highlighting Lotringen's thinly veiled racist comments. His main reason for not letting Turkey in seems to be that he judges all Turks to be lazy criminals who corrupt German society.

All that I was doing was highlighting Lotringen's thinly veiled racist comments. His main reason for not letting Turkey in seems to be that he judges all Turks to be lazy criminals who corrupt German society.
Not all. But many are. Enough to be the main group of non-German criminals.

The only way to get Turkey to reform and become a proper democracy is to treat it with respect and put pressure on it. The best way to do that is to admit it into the EU. If it isn't admitted, what reason would it have to reform?
If Turkey only reforms itself to get into the EU what happens if it is in it? Does it withdrawl its reforms then? I think that is a dangerous idea to assume that a country needs to be offered an EU membership to become a democracy. We can´t offer that to every country of the world. The EU is an European Union not a World Union.
If all countries who are outside the EU would be our enemies or would be evil the world would be much more horrible than it is.
The matter of fact is it isn´t . The United States are not a part of the EU but a great democracy and our most important partner.
But nobody would come to the idea that the US should join the EU. That is just absurd.
It is our job to define what the EU should be and how it should work. And how we do that defines who can become a member.
If we want an EU which is just a free-trade area (without freedom of movement and labour) Turkey could get in.
But the current EU is already more than that. It is with free movement of labour (also for the new members from 2011 onward) and with a close integration in many policy areas. That includes even a currency union between 12 countries.
Turkey can be offered an economic integration into the EU and in the field of security. But not in other fields.
So, the options are clear: either disintegration of the EU into a pure free-trade pact or strengthening the EU and offering a privileged partnership to Turkey.
The one option excludes the other. You can not have it both ways.
Turkish EU membership would be the end of the EU as it is now.
Therefore it is no surprise that particularly the EU enemies and critics and those who were opposed to the EU from the begining on are the staunchests supporters for Turkish membership. They want to disintegrate the EU back into a free-trade pact.
That would not be the EU anymore as it was founded in 1993. That would be the EEC (European ecnomic community) as it was in 1957. It would be the end of todays EU and would lead to the disintegration of Europe.

All that I was doing was highlighting Lotringen's thinly veiled racist comments. His main reason for not letting Turkey in seems to be that he judges all Turks to be lazy criminals who corrupt German society.

fair enough. maybe he does not like turks. maybe he has a reason for negative experience.
I'm not saying he is right, but i'm willing to bet that he represents a substantial chunk of the population.
If turkey improves itself dramatically in the next 15/20 years he/she will probably change his opinion.
maybe the community he lives in haas changed dramatically over the last few years. maybe for the better in your eyes, but it could be for the worst in his.

If you left your community for 5 years and returned to find it totally different. Would you still consider it home? different language being spoken by people on the street, signs in a funny language, everyone looks different, etc.., is it still home?
maybe he does not want to lose that.

It seems to me that lotringen and kyber, and one or 2 other, are willing to see turkey have similar membership to norway and switzerland. That might be better for the moment.

All that I was doing was highlighting Lotringen's thinly veiled racist comments. His main reason for not letting Turkey in seems to be that he judges all Turks to be lazy criminals who corrupt German society.
I think you comparison is inapropiate at best and racist at worst. Or would you compare the minority policy Turkey conducted towards the Kurds with that period? Or the Russian policy in Chechenya?
The people obvioulsly are better of in Germany otherwise they wouldn´t be there - they would return to Turkey.
Another issue would be the Armenians. Turkey killed 2 million of the during World War I and has not apologized for it since then.
The problems with Turkey are huge. It is conducting its own policies in many areas and they just don´t fit into the EU. I don´t see that Turkey can contribute to the EU. IT would only cost to the EU a tremendous amount of money.

It seems to me that lotringen and kyber, and one or 2 other, are willing to see turkey have similar membership to norway and switzerland. That might be better for the moment.
I´m willing to give Turkey a simular status as Norway or Switzerland have in EFTA. Turkey has to develop first.
Thus far it has not proven to be a stable democracy. It is still a pretty authoritarian state. This authoritarianism had its positive aspects. It prevented the islamists from coming to power in 1961 and during the 1990s. The question however is what happends if the military really looses its power. It is much to early to tell whether Turkey turns into a real democracy. The islamism is rising. The fact that there was now a law proposed criminalising adultery is just one sign of this development of the re-islamisation of Turkey.
Therefore I say: privileged partnership: Yes; full membership: No, for the foreseable future.

Lets do together what we can in a realistic way.
A privileged partnership could be established immidately. A "full" membership not - it would even in 15 years be with so much restrictions (labour market, EU funds) that it is not a real full membership. We should be honest to Turkey and say that and not to encourage false hopes. Because that may even be more dangerous for the development of Turkey than telling the truth now.

They would be an economic liability to us. They have a third world standard of living, especially in rural areas and to drag them up would cost far too much.

Also, there are the reforms. There seems to be a lot of naive people who seem to think that western democracy is good for absolutely everywhere in the world. The EU would require Turkey to less military involvement in the government. Considering the military is the only thing that has kept the country from becoming an islamic state, expect trouble if that ever happens.

And there's the immigration factor. I don't care what anybody else says, unrestricted immigration of people from such incompatible cultures is a recipe for disaster. I used to live in Burnley, an area in the north of England with a very high number of Asians. The locals enjoy high crime rates, race riots, militant islam and other such pleasant things. Then the people in charge scratch their heads and wonder why loads of people are voting BNP. There's nothing that has convinced me that other areas wouldn't end up like that.

Not to mention the human rights issues, with their record of such Nazi-style policies towards Kurds, Armenians, ect.

So yeah, I'd say I'm against it.

And there's the immigration factor. I don't care what anybody else says, unrestricted immigration of people from such incompatible cultures is a recipe for disaster. I used to live in Burnley, an area in the north of England with a very high number of Asians. The locals enjoy high crime rates, race riots, militant islam and other such pleasant things. Then the people in charge scratch their heads and wonder why loads of people are voting BNP. There's nothing that has convinced me that other areas wouldn't end up like that.
Not to mention the human rights issues, with their record of such Nazi-style policies towards Kurds, Armenians, ect.
So yeah, I'd say I'm against it.
I appreciate your statement. I really see a problem in Europe (in many countries) because of the PC (political correctness). This political correctness allows it to demonize once own country (especially in Germany) but it is taboo to criticize others and to point at the problems of this development.
Because that is the case in many parts of Europe right-wing populists like Le Pen in France, Haider in Austria or Pim Fortuyn in the Netherlands (or the BNP in Britain) get so huge support.
I wonder when the political class of Europe and the advocates of the political correctness wake up. Probably when there is going to be the demand that muslim girls are excempt from sports instruction or swimming for "religious reasons"? No, that is obviously not enough.
Probably when teachers want to wear a scarf in school - well, then it begins though parts of the pc are still not ready to wake up. Probably they wake up if one suggests to make the burqa compulsory. Well, if that happends it is going to be too late already.
Turkey has not proven to be a stable democracy - the military kept the islamists from power. Turkey has not developed into a western style democracy and whether that would lead to the reislamisation of Turkey remains to be seen. The fact that the government suggested a law criminalizing breaking the marriage is a sign how strong islamism is. Actually the "moderate" islamists have a two third majority in parliament and are in power today.

Free trade doesn't mean free borders. There is no reason to believe that policing of the relatively narrow border between Turkey and Bulgaria and Greece will get worse if Greece and Bulgaria don't want it to get worse.

And Greece and Turkey aren't exactly great mates.
Hah if I go on holiday to another EU nation with my Irish passport all I have to do is show the picture, I hardly even have to stop going past the person and I'm let through.

Hah if I go on holiday to another EU nation with my Irish passport all I have to do is show the picture, I hardly even have to stop going past the person and I'm let through.
That is the problem with the Americans. They don´t know what the EU really is. They think it is like NAFTA. Just a free-trade pact with nothing more. If the EU would be like that I would not have a problem with Turkish membership. Since the EU is more than that I´ve a huge problem with that. There are now only two options: Either the EU allows Turkey in. Then it needs to disintegrate back to a pure free-trade pact (what Nafta is) or it doesn´t allow Turkey in but offers it a "privileged partnership" and economic integration. For that we have EFTA (Switzerland and Norway are also members of that and by doing so economically linked to the EU). But for free trade there is no need for full membership. That can be done via EFTA and a priviliged partnership.
The Turkish membership in the EU would be the end of the EU in its current form - it would be the reduction of it to a NAFTA-like organisation. It is therefore no surprise that the strongest supperters of a Turkish membership are those who always wanted that - see UK.

[QUOTE=Anthil]
Turkey is not Islamic. It is Secular.

The on-paper situation, that.
The ruling conservative party openly calls itself islamic. Actually the army guards the nation's secularity ...

The on-paper situation, that.
The ruling conservative party openly calls itself islamic. Actually the army guards the nation's secularity ...
Not to mention that the current PM himself was jailed for fundamentalist activities. And all of the sudden he see's the errors of his way's just like that? I for one don't buy it.

It is therefore no surprise that the strongest supperters of a Turkish membership are those who always wanted that - see UK.
And here I was thinking Schröder is their main supporter.

And here I was thinking Schröder is their main supporter.
You are wrong on that. Tony Blair is the main supporter.
Schröder just wants to repair the damage he caused in transatlantic relations with his irresponsible policy. Well - and he wants to attract a few voters of that segment like he used to do with his Iraq policy as well. Schröder is a populist.

Not to mention that the current PM himself was jailed for fundamentalist activities. And all of the sudden he sees the errors of his way's just like that? I for one don't buy it.

I do not think that the current prime minister of Turkey is a bigger danger than the previous nationalistic, anti-democratic ones. If Turkey wants to have a muslim PM with a wife wearing a headscarf, well let them have it.

The attempts of Kemal Ataturk to westernise Turkey by force are more or less ineffective. You dont become western by banning headscarves, dressing as a westerner or by adopting the latin alphabet. However giving the military so much power as Kemal did, has of course the ugly side-effect that the country becomes nationalistic, socially conservative and myopic.
So I really believe the current PM, by wrestling power away from the military, is emerging as the lesser of two evils. He brings more democracy to the country at the expense of actually letting Turks decide about their country! This is a good thing as long as they dont decide to become an Iran-style theocracy. And I do not see any danger of this happening any time soon...

PS I do not like it when you compare e.g. Turkish immigrants in Germany with normal Turks. When people migrate to become workers in some factory they are selected for their lower incomes, lower education etc So do not judge a nation, by the not-representative examples you have seen. Imagine what the Iraqis would have to think about Americans then: they are all uneducated, dressed in uniformd and shooting all the time :-)

I do not think that the current prime minister of Turkey is a bigger danger than the previous nationalistic, anti-democratic ones. If Turkey wants to have a muslim PM with a wife wearing a headscarf, well let them have it.
He also tried to introduce a law which would have made adultery illegal recently. One could see that of a slip up on his part where he for a moment forgot that that wouldn't be accepted. I think it shows what hos real agenda is eventhough he tries to hide it behind a facade of democracy.


PS I do not like it when you compare e.g. Turkish immigrants in Germany with normal Turks. When people migrate to become workers in some factory they are selected for their lower incomes, lower education etc So do not judge a nation, by the not-representative examples you have seen.
Eeh...how are they not representative for the majority of Turks in Turkey?
Imagine what the Iraqis would have to think about Americans then: they are all uneducated, dressed in uniformd and shooting all the time :-)
Thats actually an opinion that most of the world has. Not just the Iraqi's. :D

well actually i think that turkey isn't an islamitic country , but the human rights in turkey SUCK so don't let them in the e.u. but when human rights have been improved there welcome :P
lat'z klaas / klaasville [holland]

well actually i think that turkey isn't an islamitic country
Not an Islamic country? Eventhough 99,8% of it's population is Muslim? Your right. Their obviously Amish.

Turkey might be an islamic nation but that's actually no reason to openly exclude them from the EU, as parties such as the Christian democratic parties in numerous EU member states would doubtlessly disagree with.

However, it's not the European Christian Union.

Turkey should be phased in gradually via entrance to the EFTA as a full trading partner and, if the Turkish economy builds to a sufficient level, and Turkish human rights issues are addressed by an EU inspectorate, then their is no reason that Turkey can't join.

But the nation itself isn't ready for EU membership in it's current state.

Turkey might be an islamic nation but that's actually no reason to openly exclude them from the EU, as parties such as the Christian democratic parties in numerous EU member states would doubtlessly disagree with.
You don't need to be in a Christian Democratic Party to disagree with Turkish admittance.

However, it's not the European Christian Union.

No. It's the European Union. And Turkey isn't European.

You don't need to be in a Christian Democratic Party to disagree with Turkish admittance.
Nor am I claiming that you do, I'm merely saying that refusing Turkey's admittance to the EU on the grounds that it is an Islamic nation and can't function as a secular state is a moot point.

No. It's the European Union. And Turkey isn't European.
It has, in the guise of the Ottoman Emprie and Persian lands before that, played as integral a part in the history of the continent of Europe as Britain, Spain, Poland, Russia or Greece. Therefore it has as much right to claim to be European as any other nation.

And if their football team can play in the UEFA competitions then they already have some claim ;)

Right. Having read the last load of pages and gotten cross, I'm going to calm down and try to relate all the major points I have in my head coherantly. If you have a problem with them, I'll happily qualify 'em for ya. Please bear with me and read this all.

Before I post I better make it clear that I'm half Turkish. I'm proud of the UK where I live, and I'm proud to be British: but I'm also proud of most of Turkey (it has 'issues' that I'll get onto later) Although what some people say makes me sad to be European.

But now, to set a few things straight.

Turkey is NOT a Muslim state. 98% of people are Muslim, sure. But Turkey and Turks have always prided themselves on their secularism, ever since Mustafa Kemal Ataturk reformed the country. And he is a national hero - his picture hangs in nearly every public building you care to visit in Turkey. He discouraged discrimination and the marginalization of women and other groups.

But the move to criminalise adultery shows that Turkey is essentialy fundamental, right? Wrong. You have to bear in mind, that motion was defeated by the Turkish people and government. It was defeated primarily because the secular population thought it showed islamist tendencies shaping politics and the state: something they didn't want or like. Though 98% are Muslim. Anyway: the bill was intended to PROTECT WOMEN FROM MEN, not the other way around. Check the stats of the men/women that supported it. And I feel that I must inform that ignorant guy who said adulterous women are stoned to death in Turkey that that is complete bullshit. Turkey is moving towards a much more liberal future, though it has by no means got there yet.

Right. Bext big erroneous assumption: Turkey isn't European. Therefore it doesn't belong in the EU. And don't worry - Ich werde uber die deutchen Problemen mit die Turken spater sprechen (I'll speak about the German problems with Turks later, <<so I don't get horribly attacked>>)

Firstly: Look at GREECE. One of the FOUNDING MEMBERS of the EU (At least, one of the first.) Now, although the Turkish haven't really got on with the Greeks in the past (the situation *is* getting better) they can at least admit that their cultures are surprisingly similar. In fact, from experience I know that Turkey is closer to Greece than it is to anywhere else in the world. I have been from Istanbul to Van, From Kayseri to Kushadisi, from Ankara to Antaki and from Izmir to the small village town of Aydin. All over Turkey, and all over Greece as well. The food is incredibly similar, the people and personalities are incredibly similar <<the loving overexaggeration and Romanticism of the people>>, the community life at any class level is incredibly similar: indeed, the culture is overwhelmingly similar.

And Greece is in the EU, in Europe. If Turkey shouldn't be part of the EU, then neither should Greece.

You could even include Italy and the rest of the EU for that matter! Seeing as the Renaissance in Italy, which was the biggest force in shaping today's western society, was inspired by the culture of Byzantium, and Byzantium (though a society of Greeks) was in Turkey, and had a profound impact upon the subsequant nation of turks living there. Indeed, much of the cultural renaissace was rooted in the combined knowledge of the Byzantines and Turcoman peoples.

Next bit: the German fears. Now, you can't simply slap the racist label on the Germans (although there are German racists, there are racists in every nation) just because they have a problem with the Turks. But what you can say, is that perhaps some of the fears that Turks will destroy Germany are somewhat unfounded, that is, have no basis in reality.

But I want to clear things up. The Turks that moved into Germany as Gastarbeiter (guest workers) and rebuilt Germany after WW2 were the poorest Turks, at the bottom of the economic and social ladder. Therefore, the Turkish communities that have developed from the Gastarbeiter in Germany today aren't a proper reflection on Turkish people as a whole. Now: I'm not making some incredibly stupid, pompous and Victorian statement that poor people=evil, just that poorer people tend to slip more readily into crime, (especially muggery, burglary and theft) and into the society destroying menaces of hard drugs, a gateway into a murky subculture. In my opinion, that is what Germans see when they look at the Turks. That worst segment of the subculture of society. After all, who wants to hear about Turkish people who are law abiding and nice? Rapists and muggers, guests turn rotten, are much better news.

Another point to Germans: Turks, as you'll see from looking at your sogennante 'ghettos' like to keep their own culture. So do you think that most Turks are suddenly going to flood into Germany? No. They'll stay where they have a steady supply of the local beyaz penir (always the tastiest white cheese <<or Feta, which is what they call it in Greece>>, Raki, fresh olives, vegetables and karpuz (watermelon - only fresh stuff kicks ass) And Turkish culture on tap. The weather, the people, et al.

Poor citizens, though, will still migrate! And by supporting the goverment of Turkey with EU legislations and the like, you can create a strong and socially minded society that will improve the economy and solve the problem of poverty, thus solving the problem of immigration.

There is, however, a couple o' big things Turkey have to do before they join the EU. One: the reason why I sometimes hate Turkey, the Armenian Massacre of 1914. Check it out on Wikipedia, if necessary - they have a balanced and objective view. Basically, Turkish racist government (Young Turks) with a populace scared shitless (for no BIG reason) of Armenians who (rightfully) wanted their own state, issue massacre of Armenians by the military. The cynically see it as a chance to get rid of opposition. At least 1.2-2.0 million died. Even my dad and his friends admit it happened. I just wish that the rest of Turkey would.

Two: Kurdish repression/Armenian repression. Still going on and needs to be sorted. Discrimination against these two minorities has to end. It's not going to be easy (just look at the troubles for equality in the UK and in other EU countries) but it has to be done before Turkey should be put in the EU. There are reasons the Turks are sore (and CERTAINLY vice versa) but the enmity must stop.

Look: Overall, by shutting your door on Turkey you ain't gonna make its problems go away. What was the EU all about, in the good old days? Freiheit, Fortshritt, (Freedom, advancement)...heck, it makes me sick that I've forgotten the other two. But you ain't gonna get them if you keep Turkey out.
And once it deals with its problems, you have no reason to.

But the move to criminalise adultery shows that Turkey is essentialy fundamental, right? Wrong. You have to bear in mind, that motion was defeated by the Turkish people and government.
I seem to remember that it was defeated under pressure from Brussels. And the PM defending it to the press with the words: The EU doesn't tell Turks which laws we have.



Firstly: Look at GREECE. One of the FOUNDING MEMBERS of the EU (At least, one of the first.)
Greece became a member in 1981. Hardly a founding member.
And Greece is in the EU, in Europe.
Since it, unlike Turkey, is an European country.

You could even include Italy and the rest of the EU for that matter! Seeing as the Renaissance in Italy, which was the biggest force in shaping today's western society, was inspired by the culture of Byzantium and Byzantium (though a society of Greeks) was in Turkey, and had a profound impact upon the subsequant nation of turks living there. Indeed, much of the cultural renaissace was rooted in the combined knowledge of the Byzantines and Turcoman peoples.
Eeh..no. It was inspired by the culture of ancient Greece and Rome. (And in ancient Greek and Roman times Turks hadn't left central and eastern Asia yet.) Not Byzantium. And Byzantium wasn't in Turkey. Since there was no Turkey yet.




The Turks that moved into Germany as Gastarbeiter (guest workers) and rebuilt Germany after WW2
The first guestworkers came in 1955. By then, primarily, the German women already had rebuild the country. Guestworkers were recruited to fill up the gaps in the labourforce.


Another point to Germans: Turks, as you'll see from looking at your sogennante 'ghettos' like to keep their own culture.
And when German or any other Europeans want to do the same they are automaticly labeled as racists or Nazi's. And supposed to accept as many other cultures as possible among them. But when non-Europeans do that they are praised for not forgetting where they came from and keeping their culture alive.
So do you think that most Turks are suddenly going to flood into Germany? No. They'll stay where they have a steady supply of the local beyaz penir (always the tastiest white cheese <<or Feta, which is what they call it in Greece>>, Raki, fresh olives, vegetables and karpuz (watermelon - only fresh stuff kicks ass) And Turkish culture on tap. The weather, the people, et al.
Yes. Actually I do. Cause for some reason many Turks still believe the fairytale of the Golden West where everyone has a TV in every room and drives a Mercedes or BMW.
Poor citizens, though, will still migrate!
Of which there are quit alot in Turkey.
And by supporting the goverment of Turkey with EU legislations and the like, you can create a strong and socially minded society that will improve the economy and solve the problem of poverty, thus solving the problem of immigration.
Which isn't our responsibility. Turkey is not an European country. And thus it's not our resposibility to solve their problems for them. But there is the option for a priviledged trading partner status. Those issues could also be solved with that.

*sigh*

Look, first I would ask that you don't selectively quote.
Otherwise you might have said:

Turkey

Is a European country.

Which I don't think you want to say. And now for some rebuttal.


One: The law wasn't defeated under pressure from Brussels. What made Turkey drop the law (as part of a whole package which the EU wanted) was lack of popular backing.

Two: Greece was one of the first members. And that straw man is still no reason to ignore what I said about Greece. Turkey is like Greece. If Turkey isn't European, neither is Greece. They share a culture together.

Three: Okay, I admit the bit about the Renaissance was badly put. But, you're wrong on that issue. The Renaissance came from Ancient Greek and Roman Ideals. Byzantium was what Remained of the Roman empire after its collapse, and melded the two ideals/cultures. Byzantium worked closely with and profoundly influenced the Turcoman peoples and NATIVE SETTLERS in what became Turkey after the fall of Byzantium. When the Turks took over Byzantium, they adopted wholesale a hell of a lot of Byzantine (and therefor Ancient Roman/Greek) traditions and institutions. These same institutions were also adopted by the western nations which today are in the EU.

Four: Yes, you're right. The Trummerfrauen rebuilt Germany, where it had been devastated, in the physical sense after WW2. But the Turks help rebuild its economy.

Five:What the hell did I say about you being a racist or a Nazi? I specifically said that it is wrong to label Germans in this way.

Six:That 'Fairytale' is 50 years old and dead. It's post war. Only very very few desperate Turks think that nowadays - and I know that for a fact as I've talked to turks all over Turkey. Most actually dislike the German West more than they love it.

Seven: Thanks for butchering what I just said. If poor citizens could be helped by an EU Free Trade agreement, then they would have been by now. Only through the EU can Turkey really get the strong government which they need for stability: economic, social and political. And I'll just add that when the Fre-Trade agreement was made with Turkey, it was done with the express agreement that Turkey would become part of the proper EU sooner or later. At least, that was what they were led to believe.

Eight: It's your responsibility, our responsibility because Turkey is in Europe. It's just as European as Greece, and was shaped by the same influences that shaped the West into becoming what it is today.

All I can say is: NO!!!
Accepting a non European country into the EU is suicide. Apart from the economic burden of them slorping up some 28 to 30+ billion a year. Turks would immigrate en masse to Europe thereby destroying European cultures as we know it sooner or later. Thats why the Americans are so keen on us admitting them. So they can destroy us from the inside without a single shot beeing fired.

Aren't you paranoid.

Turkey is not worse off than some eastern european countries and once it has joined the EU the incentive to leave Turkey won't exist anymore ...
Besides that, I find your remarks quite racist.

Look, first I would ask that you don't selectively quote.
Otherwise you might have said:

Turkey

Is a European country.
I fail to see how I said that in any way.


One: The law wasn't defeated under pressure from Brussels. What made Turkey drop the law (as part of a whole package which the EU wanted) was lack of popular backing.
It might lacked popular support but Erdogan would have introduced it anyway without the pressure.

Two: Greece was one of the first members. And that straw man is still no reason to ignore what I said about Greece.
No it wasn't. And what strawman are you reffering to?
Turkey is like Greece. If Turkey isn't European, neither is Greece. They share a culture together.
While there may be some similarities I don't agree that they share the same culture. As Turkish culture is strongly rooted in Islam as is the case with other Islamic countries.

Three: Okay, I admit the bit about the Renaissance was badly put. But, you're wrong on that issue. The Renaissance came from Ancient Greek and Roman Ideals. Byzantium was what Remained of the Roman empire after its collapse, and melded the two ideals/cultures. Byzantium worked closely with and profoundly influenced the Turcoman peoples and NATIVE SETTLERS in what became Turkey after the fall of Byzantium. When the Turks took over Byzantium, they adopted wholesale a hell of a lot of Byzantine (and therefor Ancient Roman/Greek) traditions and institutions. These same institutions were also adopted by the western nations which today are in the EU.
Sure. But again. Turkey is more strongly influenced by Islam in every day live. And no amount of adopting ways of governemnt is gonna change that. Not to mention that Turkey is for 96% or so located in Asia.

Four: Yes, you're right. The Trummerfrauen rebuilt Germany, where it had been devastated, in the physical sense after WW2. But the Turks help rebuild its economy.
The economy was already booming and guestworkers where recruited to keep it booming.

Five:What the hell did I say about you being a racist or a Nazi? I specifically said that it is wrong to label Germans in this way.
Wasn't directed at you. Just saying how it is nowadays.

Six:That 'Fairytale' is 50 years old and dead. It's post war. Only very very few desperate Turks think that nowadays - and I know that for a fact as I've talked to turks all over Turkey. Most actually dislike the German West more than they love it.
When I watch the Weltspiegel and their documentaries on Turkey the fairytale seems to be alive and kicking in the majority of the population. Of whom many are hoping for a ticket to the West after Turkey becomes a member.

Seven: Thanks for butchering what I just said. If poor citizens could be helped by an EU Free Trade agreement, then they would have been by now. Only through the EU can Turkey really get the strong government which they need for stability: economic, social and political. And I'll just add that when the Fre-Trade agreement was made with Turkey, it was done with the express agreement that Turkey would become part of the proper EU sooner or later. At least, that was what they were led to believe.
Now they have an associate status which isn't the same as a priviledged status.

Eight: It's your responsibility, our responsibility because Turkey is in Europe. It's just as European as Greece, and was shaped by the same influences that shaped the West into becoming what it is today.
Sorry. But I don't agree.

"Sorry.But I don't agree."

That's alright. I'm not trying to force my opinion on you or anything. :rolleyes:

I wan't saying that you said that in any way. I was just highlighting the fact that it's important to quote things in context.

I still think that Erdogan wouldn't have pushed his bill forward unless public opinion was strongly with him. After all, he feels insecure about his governmental standing. (His party has many enemies)

Greece is still one of the more established members of the EU.

Turkey isn't strongly rooted in Islam anymore. Ataturk uprooted and replanted it. Turks might be influenced by Islam, but that doesn't get in the way of Turkey being a 100% secular country and having people in it that view religion as completely separate to plolitics and suchlike. Personally, I think that this has highlighted the main reason that most people don't want Turkey in the EU: the fact that it's got lots of Muslims in it (and I think Islamophobia is yet to leave the West)- seeing as it can't be on a cultural basis, or they would push for the ejection of Greece from the EU.

With regards to a 'straw man', I was getting a bit abstract and shifting into debating mode. A 'straw man' (a debating term) is an argument (commonly a counter-argument which deliberately misunderstands the original argument) that draws the follower away from the real issue.

With all due respect, my German teacher has shown me episodes of the Weltspiegel and I think that they're a teeny bit biased and try to show a view that they've already decided beforehand. It's not 100% objective. But still, yeah, it does make some valid points. I guess that what I was trying to say is that it's a minority of Turkish people that think like that.

Then again, I agree with quite a bit of the anti-Turkey literature in Germany (and especially that article by Die Welt.)

I guess we'll just agree to disagree

I´m German and despite the right-wing propaganda by certain populists in Germany who try to "fish for votes" in the xenophobe, red-beckish hill-billy townie-ships in East Germany (Poland, you still want reparations. Here, take East German - have fun ;) ), with the goose-stepping neo nazis or extremist Christians (yes, we do have those over here as well, it´s NOT only a US problem) or other similar political or societal vermin I DO support Turkey´s admittance to the EU.

The "Christian" "Democrats" or the "Christian" "Social" Union are to blame. They intentionaly fuel fears about a "islamization" of Germany, Turks moving over here in masses or importing terrorism to our homestead.

All of the above is bullshit. Personally I am more than dissapointed by those people, I expected more of them. Oh well, mind you, right-wingers will always stay right-wingers, right?

However, the ruling coalition is strongly in favor of Turkey joining the EU and despite my differences with some of their (the governments) policies I do agree with them on that point wholeheartly. Actually, I´d be angry if Turkey would NOT be allowed to join the EU. I have the pleasure to have a number of Turkish(-Germans) as friends. Right now I can´t think of a finer addition to the EU than Turkey.

Sure, there are certain things which need to be fixed in Turkey to match the EU standards, but I´m confident this can be achieved in the next 10 to 20 years.

BTW, Turkey is a reliable partner in NATO. So Turks are only good enough to fight and die for us, in our defence (which thank god never has happened and hopefully will never happen)? But they´re not "good" enough to join the EU? Get real.

We need them. I want them in - as soon as they match the EU standards (especially in Human Rights). Turkey IS a part of Europe, maybe not geographically, but culutrally, historically and in their minds.

I really hate it that this whole stupi discussion damages my countries reputation in the world. Thank you very much Mrs. Merkel!

Turks invaded Europe under the command of Attila the Hun around 450s and they have been in europe from that time (today's modern Hungary got its name from Hun Turks). By that means, they are as european as any germanic nation in the continent. I think the only problem here is their religion. They made numerous wars with rest of the europeans, and their sultan was the caliph of the muslims (somewhat like the christians' Pope). I believe, that is why today europe seeks a kind of revenge from turks. However I have been to Turkey and observed that people are incredibly modern. Turks laugh a lot about our false beliefs about them, and they live a modern life. Being an american sociologist, I have been in many rich and poor countries and I have enough experience to make comparisons among them. Most of the turkish population lives in big cities and those are really modern cities. And other small towns in Anatolia are occupied by warm, friendly people. If you visit turkey, you will find a completely different country than what is in your mind. And you will be ashamed of your faulty thoughts about turks (as I did). I observed that turks suceeded an important transformation process especially in late 20 years. When you accuse a nation from something, you would better go and see by yourself. Seeing is believing.

Turks invaded Europe under the command of Attila the Hun around 450s and they have been in europe from that time (today's modern Hungary got its name from Hun Turks). By that means, they are as european as any germanic nation in the continent. I think the only problem here is their religion. They made numerous wars with rest of the europeans, and their sultan was the caliph of the muslims (somewhat like the christians' Pope). I believe, that is why today europe seeks a kind of revenge from turks. However I have been to Turkey and observed that people are incredibly modern. Turks laugh a lot about our false beliefs about them, and they live a modern life. Being an american sociologist, I have been in many rich and poor countries and I have enough experience to make comparisons among them. Most of the turkish population lives in big cities and those are really modern cities. And other small towns in Anatolia are occupied by warm, friendly people. If you visit turkey, you will find a completely different country than what is in your mind. And you will be ashamed of your faulty thoughts about turks (as I did). I observed that turks suceeded an important transformation process especially in late 20 years. When you accuse a nation from something, you would better go and see by yourself. Seeing is believing.

ok several fallacies.
the people that settle in hungary were the magyar. They called themselves the On-Ogur. The pronunciation of On-Ogur by their Slav neighbours lead, eventually, to the name by which the Magyars are now known, Hungarians.
The first historical appearance of a turkish tribe (seljuks) in european history is in 1064 (more or less) and that is when they started invading byzantine land in asia minor.
The Huns are assumed to be related to an asian tribe called the Xiongu (sp?) but there is no real basis for that. The turks can beleive Attila was a turkman, but this does not make it true.
The mongols on the other hand, came from the same region as turkmen.

Also i'm sure a fair % of the population of turkey lives in the city. but 40% is still involved in agriculture. that is a very large minority living in rural surroundings.

Turks invaded Europe under the command of Attila the Hun around 450s and they have been in europe from that time (today's modern Hungary got its name from Hun Turks). By that means, they are as european as any germanic nation in the continent. I think the only problem here is their religion. They made numerous wars with rest of the europeans, and their sultan was the caliph of the muslims (somewhat like the christians' Pope). I believe, that is why today europe seeks a kind of revenge from turks.

I think Turkish history that far back has nothing to do with their attitude towards a possible EU membership. Frankly, I highly doubt the average north/west european citizen even has a clue about Turkish history. Perhaps it gets more attention in schools in the south of Europe (I wouldn't know), but elsewhere the focus does not even remotely lie on the relations with the Turks.

Ballotonia

Isn't all this "Turkey is/isn't a European country" stuff a bit arbitrary? As far as I'm aware, there isn't actually a big red line on the ground delineating which bits of land are and aren't in Europe.

As for "European Culture", I went to the Czech Republic (part of the EU) over the summer and you know what, the culture was nothing like what it is in Britain.

Same goes for Germany, Spain, The Netherlands, Italy, Sweden... [she trails off]. There isn't a single European culture. And as an Atheist, a belief I'm sure I share with a large percentage of EU citizens, Islamic beliefs are no more alien to me that Christian ones.

Surely we'd stand a better chance of influencing Turkey's approach to human rights if they were on the EU?

Eg. (scenario a)

Turkey: Political dissidents- I will destroy you!!!
Us: Er... In the EU, we don't like to behave like that, Turkey.
Turkey: Oh... sorry.

(scenario b)

Turkey: Political dissidents- I will destroy you!!!
Us: Er... In the EU, we don't like to behave like that, Turkey.
Turkey: Nope.

Isn't all this "Turkey is/isn't a European country" stuff a bit arbitrary? As far as I'm aware, there isn't actually a big red line on the ground delineating which bits of land are and aren't in Europe.

As for "European Culture", I went to the Czech Republic (part of the EU) over the summer and you know what, the culture was nothing like what it is in Britain.

Same goes for Germany, Spain, The Netherlands, Italy, Sweden... [she trails off]. There isn't a single European culture. And as an Atheist, a belief I'm sure I share with a large percentage of EU citizens, Islamic beliefs are no more alien to me that Christian ones.

Surely we'd stand a better chance of influencing Turkey's approach to human rights if they were on the EU?


I think you are right. The thing is, europe has to have some boundaries, and since mainland turkey is not physically attached to europe, its easy to say that is where the boundary is. personally i'm for and against them joining.

Back to the topic. The reasons why I am against Turkey or any other nation joining is because I am very critical to an expansionist EU now. The EU should work on itself a bit before accepting new members, the EU is in no way efficient enough to accept more members. The more they add the harder reforms will be in the end. This inefficiency will cost millions, a waste of taxmoney paid by every EU citizen. The EU atm is a bureaucratic nightmare planning to become political. If they were really an economical entity they would see their own economical failures like subsidizing, corruption and certain wasted amounts of money in useless projects. They should cut back the power of the EU and concentrate on what they really should be, a slim, confederal and purely economical union. That way they can pragmatically decide which nation to take in and which ones not, that doesn't exclude to use political parameters as well.

bump

I am in favor of it, as soon as the criteria will be fulfilled, especially concerning human rights (among others, status of minorities, status of women, use of torture). Both for economical and ideological reasons, EU and Turkey have a lot to receive from each other. European population is ageing and will need workers; EU will help dynamic turkey to pursue development. EU it will help anchoring the country in democracy, and will benefit from a better knowlege of rich turkish culture.

And i dont want Mr George I'm-an-idiot Bush to say stupid things like "The EU should give you a date blah blah"

Lol, I agree to that... I heard the french parliament debating the question, and several of MPs who were against argumented that Bush was pleading for it - meaning, it was necessarily bad for EU... So counter-productive.... please Mr Bush, will you shut up, or i'll explain to you why the USA should unite to Mexico?

I'd have to say 'no'. Turkey is not ready. It's ok to start the negotiations though but for now Turkey is far too much unlike most european nations. There are enough problems to be solved even with the current amount of cultures involved. Expansion is good but if it is done too quickly it will shatter everything.

Personally I think that way too many refugees stick to the culture and traditions of their own origin making them unable to merge with the original population. Having a wide variety of ethnic groups is bad. What needs to be done is have kind of 'ethnic cleansing' in the way of joining mixed ethnic groups in marriage. What I am saying that we should BREED out ethnic differences and thus become one race and one people.

If one is not ready to become one with the country he/she/it has sought refuge from they should either leave or perhaps there could be certain 'refugee camps' for those who are just 'visiting'.

:sniper:

I'd have to say 'no'. Turkey is not ready. It's ok to start the negotiations though but for now Turkey is far too much unlike most european nations. There are enough problems to be solved even with the current amount of cultures involved. Expansion is good but if it is done too quickly it will shatter everything.

Personally I think that way too many refugees stick to the culture and traditions of their own origin making them unable to merge with the original population. Having a wide variety of ethnic groups is bad. What needs to be done is have kind of 'ethnic cleansing' in the way of joining mixed ethnic groups in marriage. What I am saying that we should BREED out ethnic differences and thus become one race and one people.

If one is not ready to become one with the country he/she/it has sought refuge from they should either leave or perhaps there could be certain 'refugee camps' for those who are just 'visiting'.

:sniper:


Erm, was this meant to be deliberately provocative? Forcing everyone to interbreed?

On your other points, though, historically ethnic groups have added to our society, as well as becoming part of it, so our culture changes a little, their culture changes a little. Works well. I wouldn't ask them to give up their culture completely.

On the refugee camps - we already have them (except they're called centres, I think). How to put strain on an entire community by swamping them with all the refugees in the region - rather than letting them settle in in small groups around the country, helping them to become part of the British mongrel culture (which I mean in a good way).

So, those two points don't go together I'm afraid. You can't herd them together and expect them to be assimilated into the community. (Of course they're going to settle in areas of other refugees - don't you surround yourself with people with whom you can identify?)

Erm, was this meant to be deliberately provocative? Forcing everyone to interbreed?

On your other points, though, historically ethnic groups have added to our society, as well as becoming part of it, so our culture changes a little, their culture changes a little. Works well. I wouldn't ask them to give up their culture completely.

On the refugee camps - we already have them (except they're called centres, I think). How to put strain on an entire community by swamping them with all the refugees in the region - rather than letting them settle in in small groups around the country, helping them to become part of the British mongrel culture (which I mean in a good way).

So, those two points don't go together I'm afraid. You can't herd them together and expect them to be assimilated into the community. (Of course they're going to settle in areas of other refugees - don't you surround yourself with people with whom you can identify?)

Ofcourse they don't go well together because they are 2 separate solutions. Those who aren't interested in staying in the country any longer than they 'have to' actually should be treated differently. They usually supposedly flee their countries to avoid 'certain' death. They should be placed to a single or few locations for various reasons which I won't go into now as it is not relevant right now.

The breeding solution was not about forcing anybody to do a thing although it should be highly recommended and perhaps rewarded. Given 2 choices (counting out the 3rd which is those camps) which are assimilation and death I would suppose assimilation isn't that bad. Nobody expects you to forget your past instantly and naturally the merger changes the culture of the hosting country too. I never said anything different although I didn't bother to write every piece of information about every possible thing. ;)

The problem is, particularly with people with certain religious beliefs, that even though they live among the 'natives' and have some kind of interaction with the local populace keep to themselves. There have been issues like 'honor murders' and many minor issues that just build up the tension between different groups. Often these refugees come in groups and stay in those groups without having any particular desires in ever becoming a real part of the country. This is natural and I would probably do the same thing but there's a limit of how much you can have people in state like that. And that is what my point was. It takes time to 'breed out' the cultural differences which means that expanding too fast = bad. Naturally I am carrying around many other meanings here too but again they are irrelevant here.

I personally live in a part of a city with loads of people of foreign origin. This area has about 10.000 people and with like 70 different nationals. The unemployment rate in this area is somewhere around 25% and so on. Areas like this just don't function properly.

:sniper:

Thanks for all the energy you put into this thread !

What the hell is going on in the E.U.
Okay lets take Turkey into the E.U. and give them all the perks that are for E.U. members just because a tiny part of that country is on the Europe side.
I say that Turkey is not a European nation and should not get into the E.U.
The more that enter the more problems will come-look at N.A.T.O.

What the hell is going on in the E.U.
Okay lets take Turkey into the E.U. and give them all the perks that are for E.U. members just because a tiny part of that country is on the Europe side.
I say that Turkey is not a European nation and should not get into the E.U.
The more that enter the more problems will come-look at N.A.T.O.
heh, you say what you like, but Turkey will join EU. Just like Romania, Bulgaria and other nations which are just as ready. Maybe Israel will be next. They always play in Euro-tournaments anyway.

Okay let all the nations you named come if they have not allready, they will bring it down but first they will bleed money out of the REAL EUROPE.
Such sad litle nations need our help, how pathetic are the governments.

Okay let all the nations you named come if they have not allready, they will bring it down but first they will bleed money out of the REAL EUROPE.
Such sad litle nations need our help, how pathetic are the governments.
Eh?
I have three questions for you
1) Real Europe?
2) Sad little nations? (Turkey little?)
3) It's pathetic to help poorer countries?

I think turkey is perceived to be a lot worse than it really is, looking at the people who live their o an individual and general scale, the country seems ok, the economy is relatively poor at the moment, but the EUs no about that is it? Also, they can't bleed other EU countries dry as only so much governement revenue goes to the EU anyway to prevent this type of thing frmo happening. As I see it, religion doesnt matter, race doesnt matter, what matters is them sorting out the kurds, coming to some sort of agreement (actually the kurds area damn sight more barbaric than you all think) and then its ok.

Its going to happen now, so the more we accept it the quicker and more seemless it will happen. Oh yeh and having a muslim country can only benefit the EU.

Eh?
I have three questions for you
1) Real Europe?
2) Sad little nations? (Turkey little?)
3) It's pathetic to help poorer countries?

1) All countrys that really are in Europe and have a European history unlike Turkey and Israel.
2) No but it is sad and litle in the way that it has to have the money of Europe that could be better spent in Europe.
3) No, again I did not say that READ the post. The governments in those countrys are pathetic, cant help their own nations on their own. Get it.
They have all that is needed just to lazy to do it on their own.

Oh yeh and having a muslim country can only benefit the EU.

Muslim countrys are in Europe, what do you think the Bosnian war was about?

1) All countrys that really are in Europe and have a European history unlike Turkey and Israel.
2) No but it is sad and litle in the way that it has to have the money of Europe that could be better spent in Europe.
3) No, again I did not say that READ the post. The governments in those countrys are pathetic, cant help their own nations on their own. Get it.
They have all that is needed just to lazy to do it on their own.
1) ok, I thought you were referring to Romania and Bulgaria too (which I mentioned in my post)
2) Maybe, maybe not. It's a very difficult problem. If they get richer (with our help) it will benefit us too. I don't think that Turkey will ever get same kind of agricultural aid than e.g. France gets. That would certainly ruin us.
3) Sorry, misunderstood (I'm pretty good at it) I thought you meant our governments, not theirs. But to be honest, I think the government in Turkey is doing pretty good job at the moment. I think the biggest problem now are the kurds.

Muslim countrys are in Europe, what do you think the Bosnian war was about?
But not in EU.

Don't worry about that, it happens alot on this forum.
Iagree with you for the most part.

I´m German and despite the right-wing propaganda by certain populists in Germany who try to "fish for votes" in the xenophobe, red-beckish hill-billy townie-ships in East Germany (Poland, you still want reparations. Here, take East German - have fun ;) ), with the goose-stepping neo nazis or extremist Christians (yes, we do have those over here as well, it´s NOT only a US problem) or other similar political or societal vermin I DO support Turkey´s admittance to the EU.
Like Schröder who's fishing for Turkish votes, huh?

*Stop*

Chiraq, Schroeder and Blair are not rightwingers.

Could have fooled me.

*Start*

*Stop*



Could have fooled me.

*Start*
In what way?

So if I took out "Turks" and replaced it with "Jews", how would the above information sound? like it was from the 1930s? What is wrong with Turkeytown? Chinatown rules. I'd love there to be a Germanytown in my town - you're welcome to come and set one up.

What is the relationship between percentage of German residents who are Turkish and percentage of crimes in Germany committed by Turks?

Just one thing - why do you want to replace it with the word "jews" ? How many young jews roam the streets and mug you, burn cars, sell drugs, or commit "honor crimes" in your neighborhood?

I'm unsure whether to award you a godwin point or to call you out as a leftist antisemite.

You could NOT have replaced the word "turks" with many other ethnicities, and you know it. Arab (fuck the "they're not really arab, they're kabyle/khazars/insert vague population name from the bible" argument, I'll settle for "arab" because no-one makes a distinction for asians, whites, redskins or blacks, and I'm not nearly racist enough to call them "brown" yet), and especially muslim populations predominantly refuse integration. Don't believe me? Go to Marseilles, third biggest city in France. Every time I go there, I play "count the europeans", and I rarely get past the number 20 in a day. Now, go count the whites in any arab country, and furthermore, count the ones that do not wear djellabas or who refuse to learn the official country language.

Now take another argument. I've never read a trukish book, never even seen one translated in french or german. Even though japanese or russian media are distributed across the whole world, turkey has no opening on european, or western culture. We have no cultural ties whatsoever with them. All of a sudden, they should be part of europe just because their cooking tastes a lot like greek cuisine? You've gotta be kidding me.

Yes, it is all about racism. When they stop hating anything that isn't muslim, or that remotely resembles a liberal/democratic state, maybe we can welcome them into western civilization.

Or, as the pessimist in me thinks, eurabia will be assimilated soon enough by the waves of immigrants.

Is it simply racism that makes you think admitting an islamic/arabic country is suicide? Spain has a proud islamic/arabic history by the way.

LOL, you mean the proud history of being invaded by them and heroically driving them back into the sea after centuries of strife and domination?

If it's such a burden economically why all right wingers are so much keener to take Turkey in the EU than the lefties are?

...Bull.

They have been our neighbour quite some time now...

The result of a brutal legacy of Moslem exampansion. Thank God they were stopped at Vienna.

And they are not the only muslims in Europe.

Turkey isn't in Europe.

There are quite many of them i.e. in the Balkan area too.

And aren't the Balkans just a shining example of civilisation. -.-

What happenned to the great waves of poles, slovenians, balkans etc that were supposed to immigrate en masse?

Obviously you've never worked in the hospitality industry.

The point of the EU is to prevent countries from taking parts of other countries.

Not true. And the Turkish state is BUILT out of territory stolen from various different countries, anyway.

No. I've been to Britain in areas with dense Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Indian and Chinese populations. I love it.

Ha, ever been to Bradford or Oldham, mate?

I said that not wanting to admit Turkey to the EU because it is not a European country is racist nonsense.

It's the EUROPEAN Union. Surely it's simply good logic that nations outwith Europe should not be elligible applicants? Next you'll be saying America and Indonesia should be admitted.

turkey is in the physical continent of Asia, so what? What actual difference to EU membership does this actually make?

That, um, it isn't European? European Union? Of nations in Europe?

Do you think Turkey did not suffer in two world wars?

Yes. It only suffered in the first one. For entering on the side of Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

Do you think gays are discriminated against in Turkey more than in Spain or Greece or Poland or Slovenia?

Yes.

If you think the answer to any of these questions is yes, then you need to learn more about European and Turkish culture before you say that the two are different.

If you think the answer is no then it's you that needs to get their facts sorted I'm afraid.

it is cause of this foolish idea of multiculturalism that america forced on europe.

Zionists, actually.

You are saying that Turkish culture is too bad to be in the EU. That is racism.

No. Wrong. It is quite acceptable to reject a culture as being "bad". Do you think it impossible that a given culture cannot be a bad thing just because it's a culture? Hypernationalist Japan's warped anti-life God Emperor culture? Voodoo Devil-worshipping Haiti's culture of fear and oppression? You don't have a leg to stand on.

A bit simular to Japan which is antagonized by China and Korea due to historic and cultural reasons.

That's a nice way of putting their brutal escapades there, yes.

in the guise of the Ottoman Emprie and Persian lands before that, played as integral a part in the history of the continent of Europe as Britain, Spain, Poland, Russia or Greece. Therefore it has as much right to claim to be European as any other nation.

Only in that it was an extra-continental marauding force that INVADED Europe. Would you say Mongolia was European because its armies went there?

You could even include Italy and the rest of the EU for that matter! Seeing as the Renaissance in Italy, which was the biggest force in shaping today's western society, was inspired by the culture of Byzantium, and Byzantium (though a society of Greeks) was in Turkey, and had a profound impact upon the subsequant nation of turks living there. Indeed, much of the cultural renaissace was rooted in the combined knowledge of the Byzantines and Turcoman peoples.

The Turks and Byzantines were at each others throats for centuries! The Turks--who came from the Asian steppes, by the way, DESTROYED Byzantium. The city of Byzantium/Constantinope itself was in Europe anyway, actually, and although the Byzantine Empire did have significant holdings in Anatolia before marauding Muslims finally drove them out it also took in the Balkans, Greece, the Crimea, Italy and North Africa.

And besides, Byzantine culture was a continuation of ROMAN culture. Can you say GAPING FLAW?

Maybe Israel will be next. They always play in Euro-tournaments anyway.

Yeah. Nothing to do with animosity with their immediate neighbours, that. The fact that people assassinate Israelli athletes.