NationStates Jolt Archive

1)I don't believe Jesus was the Son of 'God'.

2)I am a decent person,when I die I will see if I meet Allah,Buddha,Jesus or Mithra or Vishnu.THEN I will decide.I will live my life as I see fit and I already know my destiny in this universe which is death.

3)If anything,his teachings about compassion,altruism,magnanimity and benevolence and forgivness of sins is all good.I will admit that.As for his status,I personally think he was some kind of sage or mystic.I mean,according to you Christians anyway,we are all "sons and daughters of God" anyway right,at least in spirit?

4)I believe in some form of conscious continuance of personal identity after death,an afterlife as you term it,based on scientific evidence.Whether or not there is a 'god',I don't know though I think there is,based on the Intelligent Design argument,but whether it is the Christian God,I don't know.

5)Don't pray for me.If I end up in Hell,I think i will like it because:
-I LIKE the smell of brimstone
-I LIKE getting whipped up and being bound in chains.Especially by my girlfriend
-I LIKE hot temperatures.Lava and magma seem just fine to me,plus I am partial to sulphur.Who isn't?
-Naked chicks.nuff' said.

6)point 5 was a joke.

7)All religions hold grains of truth.

8)All American Christian fundamentalists/extremists,please shut the fuck up and stop exporting your twisted ideology to the rest of the world.You want to believe it,fine,you want to do all sorts of shit that affects only yourself,fine,but if other's don't want to believe,don't force it on them.Screw your horse or cow or whatever.I like making virgin sacrifices thank you very much.

9)can't think of any

10)still can't think of any

11)Atheists are can be good or bad.Same goes for organised religion.

12)Why the Fuck should I be scared of dying?It's a part of nature.If I die and there is no 'afterlife',then I won't be around to care,and if I die and there is,when woohoo,my beliefs are correct and the evidence I have seen aren't faulty and the experiences I have had verified as true.Either way,I won't lose!

13)meaning of life:We are here cos we are here.'nuff said.

14)defeat:I am never defeated.If I win,I win,and if I survive,I survive.If I run away,I live to fight another day,but I never lose.either way,I either win or survive.

15)God:How the fuck should I know?I believe there is some sort of higher being out there,but whether it is Allah or whatever,I don't know.Still,it doesn't affect me in everyday life,though there have been some funny things that happened before that seem like signs....

16)end of the list

17)you are still reading this aren't you......

18)go and wank off somewhere or something man......

19)You're a loser if you are still reading this

20)I give up.here,go to www.iwanttowankoff.com or www.newgrounds.com

You're obviously a very angry individual who has a problem with organised religion and preoccupation with wanking....i.e. a teenage American....

sigh...

A dogmatist trying to fight fire with fire.

uh, sorry?

uh, sorry?

He's saying that Christians are self-righteous and intrusive, but he's being self-righteous and intrusive in saying it.

He's saying that Christians are self-righteous and intrusive, but he's being self-righteous and intrusive in saying it.

Maybe, but I'm pretty sure asshole Christians made him that way.

You're obviously a very angry individual who has a problem with organised religion and preoccupation with wanking....i.e. a teenage American....

very stereotyical aren't we?

meh. believe what you want to believe.

"The only gurenteed thing in life is death." - some british toff from the 18th century.

Lets enjoy this short 100 years or less that we get, and then go back to eternal oblivion or perhaps some other thing... maybe a strip club.

If i do get reincarnated i'd like to come back as bill gates and enjoy all that cash... also i'll remember to dodge that pie that gets thrown in my face.

Perhaps we live the same life over and over for eternity? lets just wait until the end and find out.

"You come from nothing-you go to nothing! what do ya lose? Nothing!"- Monty pythons the Life of Brian. Good film.

thanks for listening to me ramble on.

Part of the Christian ideololgy is to share their religion with non-believers. They believe that Jesus told them to spread his word. To practice and not share their faith would be contradictory to some Christians.

Nah, who am I kidding. They do it just to piss you off, pagan.

i think you are trying a bit too hard to rebel, dont you?

and whatever
its your life, i dont think i can change your mind, i know someone who can, but im not going to go there

if you are a decent individual, would you be joking about being chained up by your girlfriend? or telling us to shut the f**k up?
i hope that is not decency in your mind, because it's pretty bad to me

i believe what i believe and you have your beliefs

i do not htink you are right

nor am i going to not pray for you, sorry, but thats the way i am
i pray for people in trouble
i care about my fellow humans! at least i try to

although your rudeness and bluntness and smart buttedness is amusing somewhat, i think it's way over done, and you're either trying to get some sort of attention, or you are in very deep trouble, or possibly incredibly bored...

ok, im going to shut up, because with you , this is probably pointless

oh, and one thing

Christianity is the only religion where Someone died for our sins, and rose again to prove His power
i think that makes us a bit different, dont you?>

but hey, all i can say is

God bless :)

Maybe, but I'm pretty sure asshole Christians made him that way.

Oh? So you're saying that you have no control over your own opinions? Hmm. Sounds to me as if you need someone to tell you how to think.

i think you are trying a bit too hard to rebel, dont you?

and whatever
its your life, i dont think i can change your mind, i know someone who can, but im not going to go there

if you are a decent individual, would you be joking about being chained up by your girlfriend? or telling us to shut the f**k up?
i hope that is not decency in your mind, because it's pretty bad to me

i believe what i believe and you have your beliefs

i do not htink you are right

nor am i going to not pray for you, sorry, but thats the way i am
i pray for people in trouble
i care about my fellow humans! at least i try to

although your rudeness and bluntness and smart buttedness is amusing somewhat, i think it's way over done, and you're either trying to get some sort of attention, or you are in very deep trouble, or possibly incredibly bored...

ok, im going to shut up, because with you , this is probably pointless

oh, and one thing

Christianity is the only religion where Someone died for our sins, and rose again to prove His power
i think that makes us a bit different, dont you?>

but hey, all i can say is

God bless :)

Thats all good and well but with all the other religions on offer whats the chance that you have chosen the right one if there is in fact there is a right one at all and we're not just an experiment gone wrong anyway!
i mean you no disrespect or anything like that i just wondered thats all! :)

Maybe, but I'm pretty sure asshole Christians made him that way.

yah,its all the christians fault!They did it!It's not his fault he's like that,its all the christians,with their magical personality changing machine!Damn those christians.....


Christians didn't do anything to him,it's you who decide how you are.


Gotta take responsiblity for your own actions.

You're obviously a very angry individual who has a problem with organised religion and preoccupation with wanking....i.e. a teenage American....
sounds like it too me.

"Spreading the word" where it wants to be spread is a different thing entielly from some evangical twat coming up to me in the street and trying to save my soul!

Christians are fine... as long as they keep their beliefs to themselves and don't try and change us normal people!
Hmmmmm whips and chains.. ;)

But if I save enough souls, I can trade them in for a new bike. :)

(and i'm no teenage wanking american) apart from the teenage part! I would wank if i could though....

1)I don't believe Jesus was the Son of 'God'.

2)I am a decent person,when I die I will see if I meet Allah,Buddha,Jesus or Mithra or Vishnu.THEN I will decide.I will live my life as I see fit and I already know my destiny in this universe which is death.

3)If anything,his teachings about compassion,altruism,magnanimity and benevolence and forgivness of sins is all good.I will admit that.As for his status,I personally think he was some kind of sage or mystic.I mean,according to you Christians anyway,we are all "sons and daughters of God" anyway right,at least in spirit?

4)I believe in some form of conscious continuance of personal identity after death,an afterlife as you term it,based on scientific evidence.Whether or not there is a 'god',I don't know though I think there is,based on the Intelligent Design argument,but whether it is the Christian God,I don't know.

5)Don't pray for me.If I end up in Hell,I think i will like it because:
-I LIKE the smell of brimstone
-I LIKE getting whipped up and being bound in chains.Especially by my girlfriend
-I LIKE hot temperatures.Lava and magma seem just fine to me,plus I am partial to sulphur.Who isn't?
-Naked chicks.nuff' said.

6)point 5 was a joke.

7)All religions hold grains of truth.

8)All American Christian fundamentalists/extremists,please shut the fuck up and stop exporting your twisted ideology to the rest of the world.You want to believe it,fine,you want to do all sorts of shit that affects only yourself,fine,but if other's don't want to believe,don't force it on them.Screw your horse or cow or whatever.I like making virgin sacrifices thank you very much.

9)can't think of any

10)still can't think of any

11)Atheists are can be good or bad.Same goes for organised religion.

12)Why the Fuck should I be scared of dying?It's a part of nature.If I die and there is no 'afterlife',then I won't be around to care,and if I die and there is,when woohoo,my beliefs are correct and the evidence I have seen aren't faulty and the experiences I have had verified as true.Either way,I won't lose!

13)meaning of life:We are here cos we are here.'nuff said.

14)defeat:I am never defeated.If I win,I win,and if I survive,I survive.If I run away,I live to fight another day,but I never lose.either way,I either win or survive.

15)God:How the fuck should I know?I believe there is some sort of higher being out there,but whether it is Allah or whatever,I don't know.Still,it doesn't affect me in everyday life,though there have been some funny things that happened before that seem like signs....

16)end of the list

17)you are still reading this aren't you......

18)go and wank off somewhere or something man......

19)You're a loser if you are still reading this

20)I give up.here,go to www.iwanttowankoff.com or www.newgrounds.com



If someone belives something,I.e,that they can save your soul,wether they be christian or not.If they trully belive that your soul is in danger,it's the right thing to do to try and help you!

Say you know that there's a bunch of guys gonna shoot your neighboor?would you not try and warn him?

Not that long ago,I was talking with a friend of mine.We were walking home talking,and all of a sudden,he say "Man,you know,I feel so sorry for all the people who haven't discoverd Islam." we went on to have a conversation about how Islam was the true path and those who did not follow it would suffer in death,wich,he trully,without question belived.He wasn't trying to get people to convert to score afterlife points or whatever,he was doing it out of compassion for these people who he didn't want to see suffer!

He didn't say that.I figured it out on my own.By trying to convert me,he was trying to save me from suffering!I was not angry,I was touched.He was trying to save me!How can you hate someone for that?

You're obviously a very angry individual who has a problem with organised religion and preoccupation with wanking....i.e. a teenage American....

Ilham is from Singapore. I don't know about his age however.

(and i'm no teenage wanking american) apart from the teenage part! I would wank if i could though....

I, however, am a wanking american. But I've been out of my teens for quite some time. Well, physically, anyway. :)

Hehehe... i guess you could... or god would just give you one coz ur his special little girl/boy!

special little man... sorry

i'm bored of this conversation... who likes bowling for soup?? i'm going to see them tonite! yey!

i'm bored of this conversation... who likes bowling for soup?? i'm going to see them tonite! yey!

no one's heard about bowling for soup but you.

It isn't christianity (or, if you prefer, Christianity) that has his goat - why would christianity want with a goat? It's fanatic christians. And I would venture it's pretty much fanatic "fill-in-the-blank-religion-of-your-choice".

Because fanatics are so...fanatic.

It's really all about how we choose to behave, not what we choose to say.

And folks, the KEY in the above is that we each get to choose - on our own - without someone else stuffing their religion/religious beliefs down our throat.

With regard to the "your soul is in danger, and we're only trying to save it" argument - it ain't, go save your own.

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

I find your lack of faith disturbing.I find your being disturbed about it disturbing.

It isn't christianity (or, if you prefer, Christianity) that has his goat - why would christianity want a goat? It's fanatic christians. And I would venture it's pretty much fanatic "fill-in-the-blank-religion-of-your-choice".

Because fanatics are so...fanatic.

It's really all about how we choose to behave, not what we choose to say.

And folks, the KEY in the above is that we each get to choose - on our own - without someone else stuffing their religion/religious beliefs down our throat.

yes,I belive that aswell,but,my friend,some people have been brought up,their parents so afraid that they would stray from what they belived was the true path,they have blinded their beloved children with their faith,and so,does it not seem only logical to try and save people,even if they do not belive you?


The titanic sank while people dined.No one listened until it was to late.Regardless,people still tried to save them.

We go to heaven or hell based on our acts and how we feel about them. Religeon doesnt matter provided you live well. I mean you could follow the commandments well and not be christian, but you will go to heaven.

If god is a divine being hed rather have nice people than ass kissers. And if by living well I went to hell and my old neighbours the selfish, rude and snobbish, born again christians went to heaven, I wouldnt want to be there.

Rememebr the diference between heaven and hell? the story with the chopsticks? well thats not belief, its how you treat other people that makes the difference between heaven and hell. Most of the time Im thankful for life and other people, I might get depressed and hate it occasionally, but in the end, Im glad, i try to respect other people and help those who need it when can etc. I value others as much as myself. I make mistakes I feel bad. this is what I hope gets you to a better place.

Religeon is a guide on self improvement and how to live well, thats why god gave it to us if he exists. Its probably worth looking through the bible and stuff or understanding what we can learn from it to be better people. I doubt any one way is right otherwise people born in isolated jungle villages go straight to hell. And no god would do that. Spread the word because it saves the souls, but not because they kiss ass. No, because people who really listen, they live better for it. Thats how.


I could extend this essay to include organised religeon. But its eems like too much effort.

It isn't christianity (or, if you prefer, Christianity) that has his goat - why would christianity want with a goat? It's fanatic christians. And I would venture it's pretty much fanatic "fill-in-the-blank-religion-of-your-choice".

Because fanatics are so...fanatic.

It's really all about how we choose to behave, not what we choose to say.

And folks, the KEY in the above is that we each get to choose - on our own - without someone else stuffing their religion/religious beliefs down our throat.

With regard to the "your soul is in danger, and we're only trying to save it" argument - it ain't, go save your own.

in there mind,they've already saved themselves,dumbass.The guy with the parachute doesn't hoard them when he's already got one.

no one's heard about bowling for soup but you.
i find ur lack of knowledge of bowling for soup disturbing.... girl all the bad guys want? 1985? there a band from texas... they're in england at the mo

Talking about an afterlife,I read this from Richard Dawkins,shortly after 9/11.
"If death is final,a rational agent can be expected to value his life highly and be reluctant to lose it. This makes the world a safer place,jusrt as a plane is safer if it's hijacker wants to survive. At the other extreme,if a significant number of people convince themselves,or are convinced by their priests,that a martyr's death is equivalent to pressing the hyperspace button and zooming through a wormhole to another universe,it can make the world a very dangerous place. Especially if they also believe that that universe is a paradisical escape from the tribulations of the real world. Top it off with sincerely believed,if ludicrous and degrading to women,sexual promises,and is it any wonder that naive and frustrated young men are clamouring to be selected for suicide missions?"

He aslo said about 9/11.

"Our leaders have described the recent atrotity with the customary cliche: mindless cowardice."Mindless" may be a suitable word for the vandalising of a telephone box.It is not helpful for understanding what hit New York on September 11. Those people were not mindless and they were certainly not cowards. On the contrary,they had sufficiently effective minds braced with an insane courage,and it would pay us mightily to understand where that courage came from. It came from religion.".......

I know they were not Christian,but does that matter.

We go to heaven or hell based on our acts and how we feel about them. Religeon doesnt matter provided you live well. I mean you could follow the commandments well and not be christian, but you will go to heaven.

If god is a divine being hed rather have nice people than ass kissers. And if by living well I went to hell and my old neighbours the selfish, rude and snobbish, born again christians went to heaven, I wouldnt want to be there.

Rememebr the diference between heaven and hell? the story with the chopsticks? well thats not belief, its how you treat other people that makes the difference between heaven and hell. Most of the time Im thankful for life and other people, I might get depressed and hate it occasionally, but in the end, Im glad, i try to respect other people and help those who need it when can etc. I value others as much as myself. I make mistakes I feel bad. this is what I hope gets you to a better place.

Religeon is a guide on self improvement and how to live well, thats why god gave it to us if he exists. Its probably worth looking through the bible and stuff or understanding what we can learn from it to be better people. I doubt any one way is right otherwise people born in isolated jungle villages go straight to hell. And no god would do that. Spread the word because it saves the souls, but not because they kiss ass. No, because people who really listen, they live better for it. Thats how.


I could extend this essay to include organised religeon. But its eems like too much effort.


Personally,I totaly agree,but regardless,there are still people who do not think that true and try to pull people out of their "downward spiral",as they see it.

Talking about an afterlife,I read this from Richard Dawkins,shortly after 9/11.
"If death is final,a rational agent can be expected to value his life highly and be reluctant to lose it. This makes the world a safer place,jusrt as a plane is safer if it's hijacker wants to survive. At the other extreme,if a significant number of people convince themselves,or are convinced by their priests,that a martyr's death is equivalent to pressing the hyperspace button and zooming through a wormhole to another universe,it can make the world a very dangerous place. Especially if they also believe that that universe is a paradisical escape from the tribulations of the real world. Top it off with sincerely believed,if ludicrous and degrading to women,sexual promises,and is it any wonder that naive and frustrated young men are clamouring to be selected for suicide missions?"

He aslo said about 9/11.

"Our leaders have described the recent atrotity with the customary cliche: mindless cowardice."Mindless" may be a suitable word for the vandalising of a telephone box.It is not helpful for understanding what hit New York on September 11. Those people were not mindless and they were certainly not cowards. On the contrary,they had sufficiently effective minds braced with an insane courage,and it would pay us mightily to understand where that courage came from. It came from religion.".......

I know they were not Christian,but does that matter.

All the same.

i find ur lack of knowledge of bowling for soup disturbing.... girl all the bad guys want? 1985? there a band from texas... they're in england at the mo


again,no offence,but your their one groupie,it seems.

hello

i would like to adress the idea that Jesus Christ was not the Son of God but just a good person. This however is illogical to believe for you can really only believe that Jesus Christ was three things a liar, a lunatic, or the Son of God as he claimed to be. If he was not the Son of GOd and knew it then he was a liar and a blasphemous one at that and not a good person, if he was not the son of God and did not know it then he was a lunatic and not a good person. The only way that Jesus Christ was a good person was if he was the Son of God. So if you believe that he was a good person then it follows logically that he was the Son of God.

Ive heard of them.

DEATH TO POP PUNK! DIE DIE DIE! DEATH TO THE FALSE METAL! RARRGGGHH!

:D

I just wanted to clarify that.

No one can really doubt any religion, faith or belief... because they all give people hope and there are so many people who need that. Even though i am not a believer, if i was in a situation (say 9/11) i'd be praying for myself and for my family, friends and collegues and that's why it's important for some to believe... we can't get at people for that!

And whats wrong with pop punk? i don't just like pop punk but all the same... twat! lol!

hello

i would like to adress the idea that Jesus Christ was not the Son of God but just a good person. This however is illogical to believe for you can really only believe that Jesus Christ was three things a liar, a lunatic, or the Son of God as he claimed to be. If he was not the Son of GOd and knew it then he was a liar and a blasphemous one at that and not a good person, if he was not the son of God and did not know it then he was a lunatic and not a good person. The only way that Jesus Christ was a good person was if he was the Son of God. So if you believe that he was a good person then it follows logically that he was the Son of God.

Not your words my friend.

hello

i would like to adress the idea that Jesus Christ was not the Son of God but just a good person. This however is illogical to believe for you can really only believe that Jesus Christ was three things a liar, a lunatic, or the Son of God as he claimed to be. If he was not the Son of GOd and knew it then he was a liar and a blasphemous one at that and not a good person, if he was not the son of God and did not know it then he was a lunatic and not a good person. The only way that Jesus Christ was a good person was if he was the Son of God. So if you believe that he was a good person then it follows logically that he was the Son of God.

maybe he was a good lunatic? Seriously. Wrong in the head, but bent on doing good. I mean to me, good is just someone who enjoys helping others. You could be convinced of something and still good.

EDIT: pop punk is a contradiction in terms. Its also annoying whiney and thinks its smarter than it is. Politicla punk, and hardcore tinged stuff like Boysetsfire or Amen, i can enjoy, Amen are just great, seriously, America should take more heed of them. Anyway, what not wrong with it?

maybe he was a good lunatic? Seriously. Wrong in the head, but bent on doing good. I mean to me, good is just someone who enjoys helping others. You could be convinced of something and still good.

EDIT: pop punk is a contradiction in terms. Its also annoying whiney and thinks its smarter than it is. Politicla punk, and hardcore tinged stuff like Boysetsfire or Amen, i can enjoy, Amen are just great, seriously, America should take more heed of them. Anyway, what not wrong with it?so there.

No one can really doubt any religion, faith or belief... because they all give people hope and there are so many people who need that. Even though i am not a believer, if i was in a situation (say 9/11) i'd be praying for myself and for my family, friends and collegues and that's why it's important for some to believe... we can't get at people for that!

If you don't believe you don't believe, what are you hoping for by the way???

If you don't believe you don't believe, what are you hoping for by the way???


An MC Hammer comeback!!!!!!



God I loved that guy........he was so..........great and stuff...........

personally i'm not hoping for anything but i can understand why people who are in situations would find themselves turning to religion because it gives them hope and takes away the fear of death. Preachers piss me off though, i'll live my life of sin if i want! if i did end up praying it would be for forgivness and that is what i'd hope to get

Amen are cool

Christians,stop trying to save our souls!

Don't speak for me.

Now ... that said ...

I have no problem with anyone of any religion praying for me. I think it's sweet. Equally, I have no problem with a Christian trying to "save" me.

What I have a problem with is how irate and violent they get if I try to return the favor. So much for your Golden Rule, eh? Oh well. Nobody likes to follow their own rules ... just impose them on others.

Christianity is the only religion where Someone died for our sins, and rose again to prove His power

God bless :)
this is not a true statement, in the nordic religions odin, one of the gods, sacrificed himself by being crucified on a tree.

What you must understand is that Jesus, for the majority of his life, didn't claim he was the Son of God. He tried to show people by his example, through parables, miracles, holy living, and other methods, but he did not stand on a pulpit, proclaim he was the Messiah, and tell people to join him or die. Even before crucifixion, when asked if he was the King of the Jews (meant to symbolize the Messiah) he said "You say I am." He wasn't denying it; but denying, perhaps, the wrong view that people had of the Messiah in those days, as a military leader who will sweep down in blazing glory and destroy evil (in those days, it was the Romans) forever. That seems to be the Jewish belief, from what I know of Judaism.

Christians believe that to go to heaven, and possibly bypass purgatory (I'm not sufficiently learned to know) you must do two things: live a good life by following in Christ's example, and believe that Christ died to save us, maybe not in that order. Really, truthfully believe it. Those are the two most important things you can do to attain the kingdom of 'heaven.' The Sacraments and other things are important, but not all-important. They can be taken as symbols that you believe in Christ and want to follow his example. Most people have trouble with the second one, rather than the first. Christians are supposed to spread the Word of God, not tell people what to believe, but try to get them to open their hearts to the possibility of Christianity. Many fanatics go about this the wrong way, it is true. Try to convince people forcefully, and they'll refuse just to spite you.

As for people who haven't been baptised, or who live in jungle villages, etc...God does make exceptions! The thing is, he asks Christians to try to avoid this by bringing His message to them. That's why you often see people trying to spread their beliefs to others.

Sorry for the rant...I'm just trying to clear this up as best I can.

EDIT: pop punk is a contradiction in terms.

Ah ... you must've never heard Green Day. :D

How are you trying to save them???! Maybe thats whr the answer is!!

Ah, Greenday... there making a statement and they're cool (tre cool, shall i say) hahaha i'm so NOT funny

How are you trying to save them???! Maybe thats whr the answer is!!

Same way they try to save me ... I hand them literature, see if they have any questions, and invite them to attend religious functions with me.

ok... the kama sutra??? or is that just my dirty mind? i'll join ur religion! SAVE ME!!!

I hate my soul

And as for the Nordic legends...that one I've never heard...and where do you think it comes from? Many people say that religions, as languages and other things, pervert each other and morph to resemble each other; many people say that that is what has happened to Christianity itself, and that it is a story embellished. I don't go as far as they do, in terms of tradition at least...but it is possible that that story was sprung from Christ's death and resurrection.

And could it have gone the other way, as I know someone will want to bring to bear against me?

Objectively, it is possible, if you discount recorded history that speaks of Jesus' resurrection. That is a matter for belief of the individual...

And to me, a true member of a religion-a Child of God-is one who not only believes because he or she has been told, but because they want to believe it and truly believe it for themselves.

I don't really have time to continue the debate.But I'll leave on this note.

I'm right,your wrong,give me money. :)

Ah, Greenday... there making a statement and they're cool (tre cool, shall i say) hahaha i'm so NOT funny

I got their most recent CD and I must say that I am impressed. They've really matured from the days of Dookie. They sound great!

i'm going to see bowling for soup tonite... i'm going to see bowling for soup tonite! yey! at nottingham rock city... leaving in two and a half hours.... everyone should come!

jeez. wats wrong with u ppl?

if christians want to believe in Jesus, let them

ppl should be tolerant of other religions, whether u r an atheist or of another religion

if wat they say is false, so wat?

American idiot? is it good? i was thinkin bout buying it!

jeez. wats wrong with u ppl?

if christians want to believe in Jesus, let them

ppl should be tolerant of other religions, whether u r an atheist or of another religion

if wat they say is false, so wat?
i agree!

and wats up w/ dat sudden change of topic?

gee aren't we all incredibly mature about our faiths (sarcasticly)
i believe what i belive for my reasons. I am a christian. and as a christian i am taught to witness to others in order for them to understand our faith so that they will possibly follow what we believe. Is that not the goal of every other religion to gain more support and more followers.
people are just bitter and angry because christians are happy with their lots in life because we know who gave it to us.

punk music/christianity... same thing....

Christians,stop trying to save our souls!

Done. Your soul is officially removed from my "to save" list. Have a nice day.

This post does not necessarily represent the views of Max Barry, site administrators, moderators, or any other player on this site.
Removal from the "to save" list is permanent and is subject to change only after a lengthy formal process.

people are just bitter and angry because christians are happy with their lots in life because we know who gave it to us.
my parents gave me my life and i'm happy with that... very happy thankyou but i respect your faith

am i still on the 'to save list' me hopes so... i may need it!

punk music/christianity... same thing....

pls explain how r they the same thing?

im sure u have a very good explaination (not)

i was joking and being sarcastic but you never no... i mean there are people that believe in em both and its all political... anyway don't bully me! i'm not as stupid as i appear!

i was joking and being sarcastic but you never no... i mean there are people that believe in em both and its all political... anyway don't bully me! i'm not as stupid as i appear!

sure... i wont judge a book by its cover but i sure read enough to make a judgement

well you shouldn't judge me! you can't tell anything about me by what i write!

You yankees should sometimes look beyond the ocean to see what christianity really is, because the best philosophy you ever produced was Jefferson's, which your generation seems to slowly dismantle. USA is a land of chaos, especillay on philosophical or religious sphere.

sure... i wont judge a book by its cover but i sure read enough to make a judgement


Judge not lest ye be judged.

i'm bored now... goodbye sad people

Judge not lest ye be judged.


good point...

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It seems to me as though many of you are forgeting something terribly important that was offered in the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. To have respect for your opposisition and the beliefs of others. It behooves the "fundementalist christian" in no way to belittle the same people they are trying to "convert." It would also be in their best interest to understand that there comes a point in which you simply have to leave the person alone. No amount of cajoling or name-calling is going to change someones mind. Often times it only leads a person to feel angry and want to challenge you more. It stands to reason that we are all set out in this world on our own paths and it is our responsiblity to navigate them. Should anyone try to hinder that or even influence change that isn't necessary (trying to stop physically harmful behavior with held) then they are also hindering the growth of that individual. Jesus never forced anyone to his way of thinking, nor did he treat them poorly if they didn't follow. It stands to reason that perhaps a few of his followers should take a page from that book.

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It seems to me as though many of you are forgeting something terribly important that was offered in the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. To have respect for your opposisition and the believes of others. It behooves the "fundementalist christian" in no way to belittle the same people they are trying to "convert." It would also be in their best interest to understand that there comes a point in which you simply have to leave the person alone. No amount of cajoling or name-calling is going to change someones mind. Often times it only leads a person to feel angry and want to challenge you more. It stands to reason that we are all set out in this world on our own paths and it is our responsiblity to navigate them. Should anyone try to hinder that or even influence change that isn't necessary (trying to stop physically harmful behavior with held) then they are also hindering the growth of that individual. Jesus never forced anyone to his way of thinking, nor did he treat them poorly if they didn't follow. It stands to reason that perhaps a few of his followers should take a page from that book.

i agree, i have great respect for jesus but its the church that i cant really stand sometimes though ignoring them seems to work

gee aren't we all incredibly mature about our faiths (sarcasticly)
i believe what i belive for my reasons. I am a christian. and as a christian i am taught to witness to others in order for them to understand our faith so that they will possibly follow what we believe. Is that not the goal of every other religion to gain more support and more followers.
people are just bitter and angry because christians are happy with their lots in life because we know who gave it to us.



yes, but what about the people who ask you to please stop witnessing. And it certainly isn't the goal of my religion to gain more support and followers. Last time I checked spirituality wasn't a popularity contest. Also I have seen a lot of unhappy christians so its just a silly blanket statement you have made. Does that mean that everyone is unhappy? No. They know who gave their life to them. It just isn't the same cosmic interpretation you have.

I once held your opinion. I did not want a Bible-Banging, goody-two shoes Christian telling me how to live my life. Nor did I want them praying for me. I went to a Christian college and gave them a hard time every chance I got. It's not something I'm proud of but it is a part of who I was and who I am now.

So I present to you a challenge...read the book "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. Strobel, an attorney, was once an atheist who stated, "As far as I was concerned, the case was closed. There was enough proof for me to rest easy with the conclusion that the divinity of Jesus was nothing more than the fanciful invention of superstitious people."

In that statement, Strobel sounds like a guy you could get along with. If your not afraid to see what he found out during his investigation read the book.

in there mind,they've already saved themselves,dumbass.The guy with the parachute doesn't hoard them when he's already got one.

1. In
2. their
3. mind, they (spacing)
4. themselves, dumbass. They (spacing)

;)

Just trying to make the point that their efforts should be re-directed.

haha, only in america....
i love you guys, religous discussions like these are funny as hell.
why is this even an issue?

I met some Mormons once. I think they were Mormons. Imagine it, though! Mormons in the centre of bloody Chichester, in the south of England, barely a hundred metres from the Cathedral.
Honestly, they offer us their religion, is it not obvious that we've got plenty already?
Myself? I'm an agnostic. I'll believe it when I see it. I think I have issues of some sort or other, though, seeing as I couldn't care less what happened to my fellow man. Perhaps I'll shoot someone later in my life, just to see what happens. It'd have to be a foreigner, though. Couldn't run amok in England now, could I?

I don't argue the existance of Jesus or even that he is the Son of God. I have an interesting brand of religion that would take a lot more explaining than I care to do here. Nor do I have a problem with people praying for me on their own time. I have a problem with the condescending way people do it. Case in point. I was having a similar discussion with a coworker and I told them that I don't really agree with the way that most churches are run because I find that they are many times self serving and spiritually backwords. Her response-"well, I'm just gonna pray for you."

Those are prayers I dont need. Some self-righteous jackhole kneeling by their bed ending their petitions to God with "and please help so-and-so see the error of their evil ways."

Pray for me if I am sick, dying, or injured.

ok... the kama sutra??? or is that just my dirty mind? i'll join ur religion! SAVE ME!!!

LOL! Nah ... but that would be funny.

I once held your opinion. I did not want a Bible-Banging, goody-two shoes Christian telling me how to live my life. Nor did I want them praying for me. I went to a Christian college and gave them a hard time every chance I got. It's not something I'm proud of but it is a part of who I was and who I am now.

So I present to you a challenge...read the book "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. Strobel, an attorney, was once an atheist who stated, "As far as I was concerned, the case was closed. There was enough proof for me to rest easy with the conclusion that the divinity of Jesus was nothing more than the fanciful invention of superstitious people."

In that statement, Strobel sounds like a guy you could get along with. If your not afraid to see what he found out during his investigation read the book.

and then read "Challenging the Verdict: A Cross-Examination of Lee Strobel's "The Case for Christ"
by Earl Doherty

to show how biased Strobels book is.

I am a christian. and as a christian i am taught to witness to others in order for them to understand our faith so that they will possibly follow what we believe.

Even to those who really don't want to hear it? What happened to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? Isn't that your law? Why is it ok for you to witness to me, but if I try to explain my Pagan beliefs to you, you just say I'm wrong and/or hellbound?

Is that not the goal of every other religion to gain more support and more followers.

Actually ... it's not. Christianity and Islam are the only expansionist religions left in the world. Every other religion requires a person to come to that path of their own free will.

people are just bitter and angry because christians are happy with their lots in life because we know who gave it to us.

So am I, thank you, and so do I. That attitude, however, is exactly why the rest of the free thinking world hates you so much.

[QUOTE=Niap lla Dnuora]
Christianity is the only religion where Someone died for our sins, and rose again to prove His power
i think that makes us a bit different, dont you?>

QUOTE]

As I recall, all of the creators of major religions eventually died! What purpose they may have died for is a subject of debate. Please don't be so ignorant as to presume that the creator of YOUR religion was unique in any way, or that he even rose from the dead.

Rose from the dead - Hah!

It's quite simple, really. Christianity is a business, and like any business, they need to attract as many customers as possible to survive, and also like a business their advertising can be a bit obnoxious. Hell, (hee hee) those telemarketers from the Big Long Distance company used to annoy me far more then any preacher. They implied I was a liar just because I told them I didn't own a phone when they called me. But getting back to the subject at hand, I can't see why anyone gets so angry or excited about this kind of thing, unless they're secretly afraid some of them are correct.

In any case, most christians are decent people, content to live and let live, it's just the high profile @$$holes that make the papers. The truth of the matter is that after you die your self (spirit, soul whatever) simply continues to exist, which is probably a lot like dreaming, which means that you can have whatever kind of afterlife you'd like, whether that be heaven, hell, a country with sane leadership (OK, that last ones hard to imagine) or the Starship Enterprise (Tell me there's no trekkie heaven) Please don't use this as the basis for your own religion though. Come up with your own crackpot ideas.

i agree, i have great respect for jesus but its the church that i cant really stand sometimes though ignoring them seems to work

the church in Ireland had peadophile insurance! Yes Insurance! it didnt prottect itself by being vigilant, it had insurance. Oh and the nuns and what they did to so many young women. And what was the reaction from the rest of the church? Not an eyelid batted.

Organised religion allows the meaning to be diluted by humans. Its a divine idea, but we manipulate it for power and politics. Thats whats done. Like heavne and hell, did god say it? I belive it was priest that introduced satan and hell, not god. What does that tell us? I hope its obvious.

The problem with heaven is that, unless a load of my friends went, it wouldnt be true paradise anyway. So god has to have really high hard to attain standards... or maybe he just wants people who feel sorry for what they'v done thats wrong. Made to remember it all when you die. The life flashing before your eyes? Is that your chance to repent? And then when you die you are freed of the flesh and remember everything? Then you are a better person because all the guilt reminds you not to do it again?

I could think and ramble on this for hours. And probably will now.

Christianity is the only religion where Someone died for our sins, and rose again to prove His power
i think that makes us a bit different, dont you?>

but hey, all i can say is

God bless :)

There is no god
There is no devil

Everything you do right in life is by your hand alone
Everything you do wrong in life is your fault alone

Get used to it. Take responsblity for your self and your actions
Stop blaming mythical enteties for all your problems.


Peace Be

the Grokdoc

I almost forgot how much I hate militant atheists, thanks for reminding me. Now I must go and tell all atheists/jews/buddhists/gays/agnostics/muslims that they're going to burn in hell unless they follow my interpretation of the bible

There is no god
There is no devil

Everything you do right in life is by your hand alone
Everything you do wrong in life is your fault alone

Get used to it. Take responsblity for your self and your actions
Stop blaming mythical enteties for all your problems.


Peace Be

the Grokdoc

thats a matter of opinion whether god exists or not. it not something that cant be proven or disproven. only believed or not believed. but as a christian i HATE it when other christians push thier beliefs on others i see it as wrong.

Some chrsitians have even tried to convert me even after i told them i was christian they kept going like i was in the wrong denomination or something. it pisses me off that americans give christian a bad name.

btw im ameraican too and i hate that america pushes what it thinks is right on others.

I had a comment until i read the part about the whips and chains...hmmm :) then I got kinda sidetracked

Thou art of sin and faith. Thou must trust in thy lord, or ye will be cast into thee fires of hell. Just joking, I personally could careless about people's religious views, I only care about mine and the people around me.

Saving your soul is your own job.
Soul= "nephesh", your neck! "Pneuma"= the breath in your lungs!
People who care about others try to share what they know. You are free to ignore it, and I hope you do.

Old gospel tune:
"Nobody's fault but mine,
Nobody's fault but mine,
If I die and my soul be lost,
Nobody's fault but mine.

Sister taught me how to pray
Sister taught me how to pray (etc)

Mother taught me how to read
Mother taught me how to read (etc)

Father taught me how to live
Father taught me how to live (etc)


Brother taught me how to work
Brother taught me how to work
If I die and my sould be lost,
Nobody's fault but mine."

Recommended: The Five Blind Boys of Alabama

Not that long ago,I was talking with a friend of mine.We were walking home talking,and all of a sudden,he say "Man,you know,I feel so sorry for all the people who haven't discoverd Islam." we went on to have a conversation about how Islam was the true path and those who did not follow it would suffer in death,wich,he trully,without question belived.He wasn't trying to get people to convert to score afterlife points or whatever,he was doing it out of compassion for these people who he didn't want to see suffer!

And from their POV, it certainly seems valid. But that's THEIR perspective. From the perspective of the convertee, it's extremely offensive and insulting. It matters little to me that someone "sincerely" believes that I'm going to hell and is trying to "help" me. The mere fact that they are making that value judgment on my belief system and MY soul is already insulting.

He didn't say that.I figured it out on my own.By trying to convert me,he was trying to save me from suffering!I was not angry,I was touched.He was trying to save me!How can you hate someone for that?

"Hate" is not a word I would use. But insulted seems appropriate.

I see it as an opinion. In this case, a particularly hurtful opinion. I feel people with such beliefs should have the decency to keep such opinions to themselves. If you believe it's your "job" to "save" people, obviously you're going to try to do that- but that doesn't mean I'm still not going to find it obnoxious or offensive.

I agree, Christians should stop trying to save people. There are many who are half-decent and will mind their own business. But there are too many that will pray for me or try to convert me, it's pathetic.

hello

i would like to adress the idea that Jesus Christ was not the Son of God but just a good person. This however is illogical to believe for you can really only believe that Jesus Christ was three things a liar, a lunatic, or the Son of God as he claimed to be. If he was not the Son of GOd and knew it then he was a liar and a blasphemous one at that and not a good person, if he was not the son of God and did not know it then he was a lunatic and not a good person. The only way that Jesus Christ was a good person was if he was the Son of God. So if you believe that he was a good person then it follows logically that he was the Son of God.

Thank you, C.S. Lewis. You may now return to the grave.

i believe what i belive for my reasons. I am a christian. and as a christian i am taught to witness to others in order for them to understand our faith so that they will possibly follow what we believe. Is that not the goal of every other religion to gain more support and more followers.

No. Some other religions believe there are many paths to God, and do not prostelitize.

people are just bitter and angry because christians are happy with their lots in life because we know who gave it to us.

I would LOVE for Christians to be "happy with their lots in life"- just as long as they keep it out of MY face.

Any bitterness and anger comes with being told I'm a bad person or doomed to hellfire because I don't think like you. I see it as an insult, plain and simple. There's no jealousy involved.

It seems to me as though many of you are forgeting something terribly important that was offered in the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. To have respect for your opposisition and the beliefs of others. It behooves the "fundementalist christian" in no way to belittle the same people they are trying to "convert." It would also be in their best interest to understand that there comes a point in which you simply have to leave the person alone. No amount of cajoling or name-calling is going to change someones mind.

...Jesus never forced anyone to his way of thinking, nor did he treat them poorly if they didn't follow. It stands to reason that perhaps a few of his followers should take a page from that book.

I'm not quite sure that's accurate, much as I'd like to believe it is. What about all the abuse Jesus continually heaps on Jews who disagree with him? The Pharisees, Scribes, and High Priests?

I'm not quite sure that's accurate, much as I'd like to believe it is. What about all the abuse Jesus continually heaps on Jews who disagree with him? The Pharisees, Scribes, and High Priests?

Are you serious? Do you not know anything about the history of that time? Before you can understand the bible you have to understand that region under that ruling. Jesus didn't have a problem with those lines of work. Thats like me saying I have a problem with nuns. He had a problem with the people in those posistions. Under those rulings the average jewish citizen was either being harassed by romans or jews put into posisitions of power by the roman govn't. Now, I'm not saying that given power a jew became a corrupt tyrant. I'm saying the romans picked corrupt, tyranical individuals that also happened to be jews.

Jesus had a problem with extortion, lying, stealing, murder and theft.

And while I'm thinking of it. There are individuals in this chat and its a common problem in any forum, with a lack of respect. I don't mean to set up a soapbox, but just because most of us will never see eachother in the real world, it does not make us exempt from behaving in mature and adult ways. It does not remove the bounds that make us a polite society. Whether you believe God or Vishnu will be leading you away does not matter. We all get are comeuppance in the end. Anger and frustration are no excuses for insults and small minded childish behavior.

Are you serious? Do you not know anything about the history of that time? Before you can understand the bible you have to understand that region under that ruling. Jesus didn't have a problem with those lines of work.

I didn't say he did. I simply pointed out that he seems to be continually attacking those people throughout the pages of the NT.

He had a problem with the people in those posistions. Under those rulings the average jewish citizen was either being harassed by romans or jews put into posisitions of power by the roman govn't. Now, I'm not saying that given power a jew became a corrupt tyrant. I'm saying the romans picked corrupt, tyranical individuals that also happened to be jews.

Jesus had a problem with extortion, lying, stealing, murder and theft.

And yet, villifies his religious opponents anytime he disagrees with them, on any issue. I don't see how that jives with having "respect for your opposition and their beliefs".

Perhaps I was unclear when I said opposition. I meant religious opposition in the sense of people who didn not worship god. Also, it is possible to villify a person and still have a respect for them. You have that respect because they are human and therefore imperfect. But a villian is a villian. The only time you can "villify" a person is when they are not. Otherwise, they have done all the villifying themselves. That is like saying I "villified" a rapist. They are already a villian.

Perhaps I was unclear when I said opposition. I meant religious opposition in the sense of people who didn not worship god. Also, it is possible to villify a person and still have a respect for them. You have that respect because they are human and therefore imperfect. But a villian is a villian. The only time you can "villify" a person is when they are not. Otherwise, they have done all the villifying themselves. That is like saying I "villified" a rapist. They are already a villian.

Except Jesus villifies many Jews who do not seem to have done anything particularly wrong, aside from the fact that they disagree with him over religious principles. Which would again seem to contradict your original statement.

I would like to know which version and/or translation of the bible you read. If its the King James it is the most inaccurate bible ever. Proven fact.

I agree, Christians should stop trying to save people. There are many who are half-decent and will mind their own business. But there are too many that will pray for me or try to convert me, it's pathetic.
Christians pray for you because they are called by their religion to do it. It's like how a police officer is called to arrest you if you break a law, you don't like him doing it, but he's doing it for everyone's benefit.

I would like to know which version and/or translation of the bible you read. If its the King James it is the most inaccurate bible ever. Proven fact.
Inaccurate how?

Christians pray for you because they are called by their religion to do it. It's like how a police officer is called to arrest you if you break a law, you don't like him doing it, but he's doing it for everyone's benefit.


I don't find that the prayers of many conventional christians are not to my benefit considering my interpretation of god is often at opposition with theirs. Its more like the fashion police telling you that you can't wear certain colors.

I don't find that the prayers of many conventional christians are not to my benefit considering my interpretation of god is often at opposition with theirs. Its more like the fashion police telling you that you can't wear certain colors.
I assume you didn't mean that as a double negative, because otherwise I have no idea what you mean. Think of it this way; a police officer thinks the speed limit is 65 mph. You think it is 70, and drive as such. He pulls you. It doesn't matter what either of you believes, if the speed limit is 65 he's right and you'll be found guilty, and if it's 70 you'll be let off. But both of you will insist you're right and carry out your role accordingly. Just because your god is at odds with theirs, doesn't mean your god is correct, or vice versa.

Inaccurate how?

Innacurate in that most of the translations are not true translations, sections of it have been altered. The reason why it is called the King James bible is because it was commisioned by King James who had just take rule over England after the death of his Aunt Queen Elizabeth. Although James was "catholic" he had taken over a Protestant country. As such, they were more following abbreviated prayer books that had been started by Elizabeths' father Henry VIII who we all know was not an upstanding fellow when he wanted to divorce his wife outside the rules and tenants of the catholic church. Enter Jame's commissioning of this bible. It was written by a select group of scholar's and "theologins" hand picked by a King who was going to forgo some of his moral convictions in order to appease a nation for peace. Already starting on path to well-meaned but foolish work. We then had a bible created with 3 books missing from the previous standard work as well as interpretations made in it that was absent from all other bibles save the Calvinist. And that is why its innacurate.

Innacurate in that most of the translations are not true translations, sections of it have been altered. The reason why it is called the King James bible is because it was commisioned by King James who had just take rule over England after the death of his Aunt Queen Elizabeth. Although James was "catholic" he had taken over a Protestant country. As such, they were more following abbreviated prayer books that had been started by Elizabeths' father Henry VIII who we all know was not an upstanding fellow when he wanted to divorce his wife outside the rules and tenants of the catholic church. Enter Jame's commissioning of this bible. It was written by a select group of scholar's and "theologins" hand picked by a King who was going to forgo some of his moral convictions in order to appease a nation for peace. Already starting on path to well-meaned but foolish work. We then had a bible created with 3 books missing from the previous standard work as well as interpretations made in it that was absent from all other bibles save the Calvinist. And that is why its innacurate.
What verse doesn't agree with the original texts?

I assume you didn't mean that as a double negative, because otherwise I have no idea what you mean. Think of it this way; a police officer thinks the speed limit is 65 mph. You think it is 70, and drive as such. He pulls you. It doesn't matter what either of you believes, if the speed limit is 65 he's right and you'll be found guilty, and if it's 70 you'll be let off. But both of you will insist you're right and carry out your role accordingly. Just because your god is at odds with theirs, doesn't mean your god is correct, or vice versa.


Which is why its more like the fashion police than regular police. A regular officer is the representation of the common acceptance and the ruling guide for everyone. Clearly that isn't applicable in this case as I don't agree and the safety of my soul is no one's business but my own.

Furthermore, there is no double negative. A double negative is when in writing or speach one uses two words that have the same negatory perception, thus nullifying one another. Such as, "Your comment is not not faulty." When the two nots cancel one another all we are left with is "Your comment is faulty."

For its time period, the KJV version was quite a remarkable achievment of the time. It involved some beginnings of textual criticism, and had good literay style and was a decent literal translation.The preface itself of the KJV states that they encourage others to build upon their foundation and try to better it. The primary issue with the KJV is a textual issue, meaning the manuscripts which Erasmus used for the Textus Receptus are not the best texts, as far as we know today. Erasmus worked with about 10-15 greek manuscripts, mostly late medieval manscripts. At points, Erasmus didn't even have any greek for certian parts of the New Testament, for which he translated from the latin into the greek. At its time, It was still a good text. It was one of the first good widely excepted literal translations of the Bible. Of course language changes, hence the KJV is most likely not the best translation for today. There also exist many versions and printings of the KJV. If on was to use only the 1611 version, it is almost unreadable in today's english. So one has to be specific about which version of the KJV

Today, textual evidene is even stronger than in the critical text. There exist close to 5,000 greek manuscripts of the New Testament, not all which contain the whole though. Some of the earliest manuscripts date within 100 years of the original writings. The writings of Pluto or the greek philosphers don't have that much textual evidence. The manuscripts agree as much as 99%, with only copyist errors, misspelling of words, and word order. Thus, the evidence for the text of the New Testament probably the strongest of the Hellenist writings of that period.

Current versions that i consider good translations, are the NASB, ESV, NET, and Holman Standard Christian Bible.

Which is why its more like the fashion police than regular police. A regular officer is the representation of the common acceptance and the ruling guide for everyone. Clearly that isn't applicable in this case as I don't agree and the safety of my soul is no one's business but my own.

Furthermore, there is no double negative. A double negative is when in writing or speach one uses two words that have the same negatory perception, thus nullifying one another. Such as, "Your comment is not not faulty." When the two nots cancel one another all we are left with is "Your comment is faulty."
I don't find that something is not is the same as saying I find something to be. A Christian sees himself as a regular police officer, and your safety is his business, regardless of how you feel about it.

Are you serious? Do you want me to go verse by verse and line by line through the whole bible. It isn't specific verses, its the whole damn thing. If you compare it to any other bible you will see differences. Even professors at bible colleges and other christian establishments recognize this. I can tell you these things all night buddy. If you don't believe me look up an "expert." I don't mean go to the local Baptist church either. Go to an actual theologian. Someone who as spent more than 30 years doing comparative studies of the bible. Any one of them will be more than happy to set the record straight. I've done it on numerous occasions.

Magicincia, read post 114

Are you serious? Do you want me to go verse by verse and line by line through the whole bible. It isn't specific verses, its the whole damn thing. If you compare it to any other bible you will see differences. Even professors at bible colleges and other christian establishments recognize this. I can tell you these things all night buddy. If you don't believe me look up an "expert." I don't mean go to the local Baptist church either. Go to an actual theologian. Someone who as spent more than 30 years doing comparative studies of the bible. Any one of them will be more than happy to set the record straight. I've done it on numerous occasions.
So basically, there's tons of contradictions which are so easy to find, but you don't feel the need to present any of them?

It is only possible to prove that is a contradiction if there is no way possible to reconcile it. Almost all instances, i would argue all, are reconcilable.

All i gotta ask is have either of you have studied the New Testament in latin or greek or have done real textual criticism?

Octavius, I did and I do agree that is is very readable. However the fact still remains that there are pieces missing and convenient tranlations.

Aramanar (sorry, I can't remember the spelling and I don't want to hit back or will lose this,) is not presenting any effective arguements. I don't keep a list handy of all the inaccuracies and mistranslations so I'm afraid I don't know which bodily orifice to pull those from for you buddy. I don't consider it anyone's repsonsiblity to police my actions based on their religious convictions. Its rude and degrading. I don't judge others based on mine. I think its a sin to litter but I sure as shit don't tell people they are going to hell for it. Why? Not my business. The fact here is that you are not going to offer and suggestions and I could heap fact upon fact for you, but you are set in your ways and that is fine. But don't think that you are being smart or "winning" because I'm not going to quibble over lines from the bible with you.

Octavius, I did and I do agree that is is very readable. However the fact still remains that there are pieces missing and convenient tranlations.

Aramanar (sorry, I can't remember the spelling and I don't want to hit back or will lose this,) is not presenting any effective arguements. I don't keep a list handy of all the inaccuracies and mistranslations so I'm afraid I don't know which bodily orifice to pull those from for you buddy. I don't consider it anyone's repsonsiblity to police my actions based on their religious convictions. Its rude and degrading. I don't judge others based on mine. I think its a sin to litter but I sure as shit don't tell people they are going to hell for it. Why? Not my business. The fact here is that you are not going to offer and suggestions and I could heap fact upon fact for you, but you are set in your ways and that is fine. But don't think that you are being smart or "winning" because I'm not going to quibble over lines from the bible with you.
Well then the American legal code not only permits, but mandates beastiality. It's in there, and I give the burden of proof to YOU, the other side, because clearly it's beneath me to support my arguments. I don't tell people they're going to hell regardless of what they do or not do, I simply ask if they want to hear about Jesus. If they say no, that's fine.

Magicincia, any remarks, or are you now silent?

All i gotta ask is have either of you have studied the New Testament in latin or greek or have done real textual criticism?


Octavius...though it is only loosely relative to the arguement, or at least what I consider the arguement to be. That the translation is not completely accurate and therefore is mildly faulty. I believe this to be true with any interpretation. Just like we will never be completely accurate in our interpretation of Plato. Its inherant. No...unfortunately I'm only 20 and have yet to master greek or latin although I would honestly like to someday. As far as comparative study goes, I have only recently begun to, which is why I directed our other contender here to a more learned source. I am certainly not the end all be all of scripture. I however feel that it is important to have an understanding of what the bible is. A conglomeration of many writings from many languages set down many years after the events have occured. With information that was never given when the bible was originally compiled.

Magicincia, have you done actual textual criticism and studied the manuscipts of the New Testament and trasnlation theory?

Arammanar don't be asinine. Common sense dictates that no where does any law permit fucking a horse. If you are going to argue with me, don't be a jerk. I'm saying that listing those examples would take forever and I can't call them up right now word for word nor am I, in this forum going to be able to get you every verse for it. Don't be an ass.

To the original poster:
Regardless of whether or not you believe in Christianity, you should understand that they are doing something that they believe is good and kind to you when they talk to you about God.

That said, if you don't want to listen, you can tell them respectfully (and forcefully, if necessary) that you aren't interested in hearing what they have to say and that you wish to be left alone. If you don't want to be bothered at home, you can put up a sign saying so.

So that's the end of the story, they have the right to come up to you, you have the right to send them away. No harm done by either party.

understood. One cannot fully criticize a translation unless you have the orignal to compare it against. So it is not valid to simply say it is a bad translation when one doesn't know the originals and the issues at stake.

Arammanar don't be asinine. Common sense dictates that no where does any law permit fucking a horse. If you are going to argue with me, don't be a jerk. I'm saying that listing those examples would take forever and I can't call them up right now word for word nor am I, in this forum going to be able to get you every verse for it. Don't be an ass.
Then don't be a fool. Common sense dictates if you're going to make some stupid, outlandish statement that you would provide at least one iota of proof. I'm saying provide one example, if that "would take forever," that should give you some clue as to the quality of your argument.

As, a christian, I agree that there are people who illegitemately spread the Gospel. But, simply because there is a conterfit dollar bill doesn't negate the real one. though there may be negative instances, it doesn't purely negate true gentle conversational Christians.

I never said it was a bad translation, I said innaccurate, which is true for every translation. Hell, even translating from spanish to english isn't always right, going from aremaic to english can't be pretty.

I never said it was a bad translation, I said inaccurate, which is true for every translation. Hell, even translating from spanish to english isn't always right, going from aremaic to english can't be pretty.
A bad translation is taking "the cow is white" and making it into "white is what the cow is not not colored."
An inaccurate translation is making it say "the horse is blue."

As, a christian, I agree that there are people who illegitemately spread the Gospel. But, simply because there is a conterfit dollar bill doesn't negate the real one. though there may be negative instances, it doesn't purely negate true gentle conversational Christians.


I have no problem with the gentle conversational Christian. I have a problem with bible thumping hypocrites. The man who sits in church every sunday and beats his wife. The woman who preaches temperance but is having an affair. Its the average run of the mill gentle christian you never hear from. Who refuses to believe there are discrepancies with out a list of verses. It may interst them to know that there used to be a translation which held in it the length and girth of a stick that it was apporopriate to beat your wife with. Unfortunately I can't show that, it doesn't exist anymore. But some people feel just because they haven't seen it or they don't want to believe it, it isnt true.

you still cannont assert to what level it is innacurate. Modern linguistics have come a far way, and some of the english tranlations are very close in word and semantical value to the originals. There is the historical and cultural Gap, which one can bridge through the study of history to gain a better understanding of the text. Most people wont discredit a message simply because it has been translated. Take for example many scholary works in any given field that are translated back and forth. Scholars still treat translations of those works as authorities and genuine. So, simply because it is a translation doesn't ruin the message of the text.

Conerning post #133, i also have problems with those type of people, as does also the New Testament. I dont think it is a good characterization to build a type off of only that group of people. It is a limited sample and is not fair to the others.

I have no problem with the gentle conversational Christian. I have a problem with bible thumping hypocrites. The man who sits in church every sunday and beats his wife. The woman who preaches temperance but is having an affair. Its the average run of the mill gentle christian you never hear from. Who refuses to believe there are discrepancies with out a list of verses. It may interst them to know that there used to be a translation which held in it the length and girth of a stick that it was apporopriate to beat your wife with. Unfortunately I can't show that, it doesn't exist anymore. But some people feel just because they haven't seen it or they don't want to believe it, it isnt true.
Care to cite any of this? I just an article in the Constitution permitting direct election of Presidental Cabinent members!

I can also bring up points about people of other religions, and beliefs and people in them doing atrocious things. It may not necessarily be that religion or belief that leads them to it, in the case of Christianity at least. But a Christian acting in that sense is actually violating what the New Testament teaches. I could build a characterization of all atheists and hitler and stalin and nietzche, would that be fair? No. A proper characterization is built off of valid research and a look at the genuine claims.

Octavius, it was never my point to discredit the work. I'm only saying that we can really never have a full accurate translation, there are two many documents and scriptures that were amalgemated in the very begining. Including scripts in the Vatican vaults people don't get to see or scripts that may have been destroyed by either design or disaster. It doesn't discredit the value of the teachings of Jesus, but it certainly makes me take the rest of the book with a grain of salt.

And seriously...the cow thing was reaching.

To the original poster....

You know, if you accepted Jesus as your savior you would not have all that anger.









Sorry, couldn't help it.........

Anyways, trying to prove a point while saying fuck every other word just makes people laugh.

Octavius, it was never my point to discredit the work. I'm only saying that we can really never have a full accurate translation, there are two many documents and scriptures that were amalgemated in the very begining. Including scripts in the Vatican vaults people don't get to see or scripts that may have been destroyed by either design or disaster. It doesn't discredit the value of the teachings of Jesus, but it certainly makes me take the rest of the book with a grain of salt.

And seriously...the cow thing was reaching.
A bad translation is still readable just awkward, an inaccurate one is false. How about that?

" I'm only saying that we can really never have a full accurate translation"

I think this is a poor assertion conisdering the fact that you have not studied the new testament in the originals and done the textual criticism. I suggest you further look into the claim you make and study it out, if you really want to know. The scripts in the vatican of which you speak are not really of any import to this issue when you talk to any palentographer today.

A bad translation is still readable just awkward, an inaccurate one is false. How about that?


Are you seriously going to quibble over the meaning of bad and innacurate? Ok, sounds like you got a "Bad" understanding of my meaning of innacurate. Out of all I have to say this is the only thing you have to get out if it? That is sad. You've taken a decent arguement and created a personal leaning towards it. I'm sorry you feel either offended or personally attacked by me having beliefs different than yours. But the fact still remains that the translations are off by a lot or a little and information was withheld from the very beginning. It would be like writing a book with 50 chapters but your publisher took out 5.

"full accurate translation..."

you can only know this if you actually know the original and can't translate it or communicate into the desired langauge. so this assertion falls short of valid evidence, for you would need to know what the actual text states in order to know that no translation is fully acurate. Given, some is lost in translation, but not as much as you make it out to be.

if you are really interested, i suggest you start out reading this book: "The Text of the New Testament" by Bruce Metzger.

Octavius, (you might want to note that I have more respect for this conversationalist A, perhaps its because they are respectful...novel isn't it.) While I agree that more study needs to be made on my part, as I've stated. I've also mentioned that I am 20, so in between high school and going to college I haven't really found the time to learn 2 new languages. I certainly plan on learning latin and greek as it will pertain to my majors. I simply cannot agree however that any information that we don't have "doesn't matter." All knowledge is of a benefit.

"But the fact still remains that the translations are off by a lot or a little and information was withheld from the very beginning. It would be like writing a book with 50 chapters but your publisher took out 5."

poor assertion, sorry to say it so plainly. But in order to know that, you would have to know that their were 45 other chapters. and 2nd you would have to show historically how this actually happened, which you have not. The assertion does not stand. In order to know what is incomplete, it implies that you know what is complete which you argue that we don't so your whole argument self destructs.

I understand your limitations. I am just letting you know the degree of the propositions you make, and that you can't really legitimately make then unless you have done the study. I am 22 and am finishing masters right in New Testament Studies.

"Octavius, (you might want to note that I have more respect for this conversationalist A, perhaps its because they are respectful...novel isn't it.)"

I understand that, but what we are doing with is real linguistics and history. I agree too. I dont like bible beaters and i am a strongly devoted Christian
The last thing i will do is beat someone with my faith. This, however is like a said a more linguistic and historical issue, in dealing with the text of the New Testament.

I honestly encourage you to study and search. But, please dont base you thoughts on Christianity due to a knee jerk reaction to a bad model of it. Study it for what it really is, not what certain people try to make it. I find the Christian faith to be the most satisfying in every respect. I just encourage, to really search it out, and that means being open to possibilities.

"But the fact still remains that the translations are off by a lot or a little and information was withheld from the very beginning. It would be like writing a book with 50 chapters but your publisher took out 5."

poor assertion, sorry to say it so plainly. But in order to know that, you would have to know that their were 45 other chapters. and 2nd you would have to show historically how this actually happened, which you have not. The assertion does not stand. In order to know what is incomplete, it implies that you know what is complete which you argue that we don't so your whole argument self destructs.

K, sorry that took so long, I desperatly need to go to the restroom. :( Anyways. As far as books being with held I do know. This was done by Pope Gregory I. I'm sure it needed to be done, there had to be some limit on the size of the thing. But the fact remains that it happened. I'm not saying it was a good thing or a bad thing. I'm saying it happened. Its a historical fact that he also reinterpreted the book of Job. Maybe its better, maybe its worse. But you and I weren't there so we can't be sure. That is my whole point. Not whether it is good or bad or innaccurate as a fault. But that we can't be sure. So take it with a grain and don't use it to foster your beliefs unwanted onto others.

And anyhoo. I haven't made a knee-jerk reaction of any kind. I don't hate christians or christianity. I don't really hate anything. I don't mind christians at all, I sort of still am....with added bonuses. I just can't stand self-righteous liars.

Either way, I can't discuss anymore. I'm way to freaking tired....its 2am. Best of wishes all.

bien, como no se ingles lo dire en español (suerte el que lo entienda) bien no se por que siempre atacan diciendo que no existe Dios, bien se sabe que, aunque no se puede comprobar que existe, tampoco se puede comprobar lo contrario, lo que yo pienso, ya conociendo las teorias hechas por nosotros,
los humanos, la cual dice que la materia no se destruye, sino que cambia y se transforma, eh aqui mi cuestion, entonces de donde aparecio toda esta materia? aparecio aqui toda sin mas? no se puede pues no puede aparecer de la nada, algo tuvo que haberlo creado, sin embargo es dificil saber como aparecio todo esto, pienso que es demasiado estupido decir "Dios no existe" sin poder comprobarlo, y menos si no puedes ni comprobar como aparecio la materia del universo, por que yo dudo que apareciera asi sin mas o que ya estubiera hay, respondanme como aparecio todo! y comprueven! antes de decir algo, demuestrenmelo o solo queden como idiotas :)

Ah, the good Ol' boards of NationStates, new faces every time almost.

Well, I guess I could respond to your "suggestion/comment".

1. Christs teachings cannot be silenced, nor can God's Word.

2. Lord Jesus Christ is the one sent to die for the Sins of all mankind/humanity. This was so to give the Gentiles a chance to the Kingdom of Heaven.

3. No one can stop the spread of the Lord's works, no man alive can halt anything set forth by Lord God Almighty.

4. The Mayflower Compact was embraced by the Lord as the Covenant for America, thus this is specifically why most of the Lord's Teachings spread from America to the World.

5. Souls shall be saved in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to be assured Heaven and to fullfill their purpose set forth for them on this Earth that Lord God has created.

6. The Attacks against Christianity are making no impact whatsoever, and hence you shall notice that our voice is now being heard over yours.

7. You either shall care about where you will go after you pass from this Earth, or you shall find yourself just how real God's Words are.

8. The Number One reason why Christians save Souls is because we Love or fellow man, and we seek to ensure they shall see their Savior in Heaven, and their Creator. For every man has sinned, and not one is perfect. The expection was when Lord God was made flesh in Lord Jesus Christ, whom lived a Perfect life until the Crucifixion(typo?) on the Cross.

9. I care for my fellow human/man. I know I have sinned, I know everyone has. Could it be right for me to hide the Salvation that the Lord has so mercifully given unto me and watch others be condemed while I move not my lips to speak the Word? I think not.

10. Thank you, and May Lord God Bless you.

" Anyways. As far as books being with held I do know. This was done by Pope Gregory I. I'm sure it needed to be done, there had to be some limit on the size of the thing. But the fact remains that it happened. I'm not saying it was a good thing or a bad thing. I'm saying it happened. Its a historical fact that he also reinterpreted the book of Job. Maybe its better, maybe its worse. But you and I weren't there so we can't be sure. That is my whole point. Not whether it is good or bad or innaccurate as a fault. But that we can't be sure. So take it with a grain and don't use it to foster your beliefs unwanted onto others."

As far as gregory, He may have witheld them at the time period. I am sure it was not universal though. There is textual evidence of the authenticity of Job and other books in the Masoretic Text.To use this illustration yet again, Just becasue one takes a dollar bill and makes fake, doesn't mean the original is a fake. We can be sure because of the scope of the manuscripts we have extends that past gregory, closer to the original time of the writings.

Also, Interpretation is a far different issue than that of paleographyas well. The point is noted, but it does not stand concerning the tranmission of the text. Other issues its seems you are hinting to is cannocity, which we can discuss that too if you like, but that is a distinct issue as far as the actual preservation of the texts themselves. What i am stating is that the texts themselves have preserved with accuracy and we have writings very very almost the same as the originals, as far as the textual evidence that we have today.

Didn't say you did, just didn't want you to. It was a preventitive statement. Thanks for the dialouge.

Christianity is the only religion where Someone died for our sins, and rose again to prove His power
i think that makes us a bit different, dont you?>


except zoroastrainism.

and many pagan gods died and came back.

I would like to know which version and/or translation of the bible you read. If its the King James it is the most inaccurate bible ever. Proven fact.

I've perused through several versions, the one edition of the NT I've used the most was the "New Oxford Annotated NRSV [New Revised Standard Version] Bible with Apocrypha, Third Edition".

And exactly how is that relevant to my comments?

Anyways, trying to prove a point while saying fuck every other word just makes people laugh.

One might say something similar about trying to convince people to believe in one's diety... :rolleyes:

4. The Mayflower Compact was embraced by the Lord as the Covenant for America, thus this is specifically why most of the Lord's Teachings spread from America to the World.

What?

:headbang:

Christ's teachings get silenced with the violence that goes side by side with it, don't you wish everone religion was right, where kids don't have to fight and die, don't have to rely on the system, if god was with them, would he save them, or would he rather they were in heaven without having to fend for the life, or live in strife and suffer, which one s better. Does Christ save us from his father, or from the devil, or from our sins, our from our skin that he created, but who created it, him or his father, which one, why does this remind me of worship to the sun, the trinity of Egytian religion with father mother and son. why does the christ story remind me of other religions who celebrate december 25, and have for centuries before the christ story. Someone tell me why the fight, they re all wrong they re all right.

4. The Mayflower Compact was embraced by the Lord as the Covenant for America, thus this is specifically why most of the Lord's Teachings spread from America to the World.

How can you argue with that?

First, you have to un-teach it. What we have here is a failure to fail to communicate. Who put that mis-information into a formulating conciousness?

Virtually the only thing not wrong in that sentence is the spelling...

Can't resist, even though I don't plan to post here hardly ever.

There are no "different gods". Religions have risen from striving to understand the idea of a personality that is eternal, limitless and perfect. Since we are none of those things, we come up with various inaccurate ideas and name each one differently. None of them describe God accurately due to our limitations as finite, imperfect beings.

So "I don't know if I will be meeting Yahweh or Allah or Vishnu, etc." is not really an argument. You won't be meeting any of them and/or you will be meeting all of them in one. But surely as I'm born, you will be meeting Someone.

I believe that Someone, in the middle of the time we are bound by, in the middle of the world we live in, in the middle of the color spectrum, manifested in human form as a way to help us understand more. I believe that manifestation was Jesus Christ, due to the nature of His teachings.

By the way, I really like Zoroastrianism too but it has some serious limitations, like you have to be born into it. No matter how ardently you love Ahura Mazda, you cannot be accepted by Him unless you are born into the faith. Bummer.

As for preaching to the unconvinced, it's interesting that Jesus often admonished his followers not to tell anyone about the miracles. Versus St. Paul, who insisted we aggressively tell everyone, ready or not.

I've decided that means keep your mouth shut until someone else brings up the subject, and only then be ready to give an accounting. Like when someone starts a message thread, LOL!

People always have so much anxiety and defensiveness when this subject comes up, and yet all I have found in a life of faith is peace, joy, and reserves of strength when hardships come.

Hey, it costs nothing to give it a try.

Magicincia, have you done actual textual criticism and studied the manuscipts of the New Testament and trasnlation theory?

Well, as a long time student of Hebrew and of Tanakh, I'd be more than happy to point out the hundreds of horrible mistranslations I've come across in comparing the original texts to any translations you'd care to show me.

Since people seem to want instant gratification, here's my first one:

Genesis 1:1 (KJV) "In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth"

More properly, this should read: "With beginning, God was created in the Heavens and Earth"

Very different, do you not agree?

Well, as a long time student of Hebrew and of Tanakh, I'd be more than happy to point out the hundreds of horrible mistranslations I've come across in comparing the original texts to any translations you'd care to show me.

Since people seem to want instant gratification, here's my first one:

Genesis 1:1 (KJV) "In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth"

More properly, this should read: "With beginning, God was created in the Heavens and Earth"

Very different, do you not agree?
May I ask upon what authority you have your version of the first sentence of the Torah?
It doesn't sound like something a Jewish or Christian scholar would come up with.

Ah, the good Ol' boards of NationStates, new faces every time almost.

Well, I guess I could respond to your "suggestion/comment".

1. Christs teachings cannot be silenced, nor can God's Word.

2. Lord Jesus Christ is the one sent to die for the Sins of all mankind/humanity. This was so to give the Gentiles a chance to the Kingdom of Heaven.

3. No one can stop the spread of the Lord's works, no man alive can halt anything set forth by Lord God Almighty.

4. The Mayflower Compact was embraced by the Lord as the Covenant for America, thus this is specifically why most of the Lord's Teachings spread from America to the World.

5. Souls shall be saved in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to be assured Heaven and to fullfill their purpose set forth for them on this Earth that Lord God has created.

6. The Attacks against Christianity are making no impact whatsoever, and hence you shall notice that our voice is now being heard over yours.

7. You either shall care about where you will go after you pass from this Earth, or you shall find yourself just how real God's Words are.

8. The Number One reason why Christians save Souls is because we Love or fellow man, and we seek to ensure they shall see their Savior in Heaven, and their Creator. For every man has sinned, and not one is perfect. The expection was when Lord God was made flesh in Lord Jesus Christ, whom lived a Perfect life until the Crucifixion(typo?) on the Cross.

9. I care for my fellow human/man. I know I have sinned, I know everyone has. Could it be right for me to hide the Salvation that the Lord has so mercifully given unto me and watch others be condemed while I move not my lips to speak the Word? I think not.

10. Thank you, and May Lord God Bless you.
Give me an "F"!

F!

Give me an "A"!

A!

Give me an "N"!

N!

Give me an "A"!

A!

Give me a "T"!

T!

Give me an "I"!

I!

Give me a "C"!

C!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keruvalia
"Well, as a long time student of Hebrew and of Tanakh, I'd be more than happy to point out the hundreds of horrible mistranslations I've come across in comparing the original texts to any translations you'd care to show me.

Since people seem to want instant gratification, here's my first one:

Genesis 1:1 (KJV) "In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth"

More properly, this should read: "With beginning, God was created in the Heavens and Earth"

Very different, do you not agree? "

That is a very poor understanding of the text based upon a bad exegetical choice that you have made in Genesis 1:1. That could be a possible rendernig, but the context of Genesis does not allow for a translation like that. Primarily, You are taking what should be a active verb "to create" and making it passive " to be created," thu interchaing the role of the creator in Genesis 1. The rest of the language in the Pentateuch with agree translating Genesis 1:1 as God created. On what basis do you try to translate it "With beginning, God was created in the Heavens and Earth"" Clearly the introductory remark is temporal in the text and is the best exegetical choice to be made, hence, "In the beginning."

Clearly the occaison and purpose of the writing of the rest of the book does not agree with choice such as you have made. The grammar points more towards it being active, not passive.