NationStates Jolt Archive

Could it be that France is waking up?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6184776/

Yes, I can totally see that they are changing their usual authoritarian liberal stance.

Mmm... vive la France.

right on

Looks like theres no debate here.

Could it be that France is waking up?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6184776/

Were they ever asleep?

Were they ever asleep?

With 10% of their population being Muslim immigrants like the fine upstanding citizen in the story, some might think so.

With 10% of their population being Muslim immigrants like the fine upstanding citizen in the story, some might think so.

....And what is wrong with Muslims? Most Muslims are not extremists any more then all Christians are like Timothy McVeigh. Sure you have extremists in every religion, that's the nature of the beast, but no more in Islam then any other religion.

....And what is wrong with Muslims? Most Muslims are not extremists any more then all Christians are like Timothy McVeigh. Sure you have extremists in every religion, that's the nature of the beast, but no more in Islam then any other religion.

I just KNEW that post would bring this exact response. ;)

There is nothing wrong with Islam....however, France has been the destination of choice for many of those who are less than tolerant. Is it because of France's very liberal and tolerant society? Probably. Are they waking up to what is going on in their country now, where many parts of Paris are run by Muslim clerics who enforce Muslim law over French law?

You might want to take a look at this video....

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/13/60minutes/main617270.shtml

Nice to know that free speech in France doesn't apply to foreigners.

I'm glad I don't live in France.

I just KNEW that post would bring this exact response. ;)

There is nothing wrong with Islam....however, France has been the destination of choice for many of those who are less than tolerant. Is it because of France's very liberal and tolerant society? Probably. Are they waking up to what is going on in their country now, where many parts of Paris are run by Muslim clerics who enforce Muslim law over French law?

Actually extreme Muslims first choice has always been the UK.. The CBC ran a story on it on "The 5th Estate"

EDIT: Sorry it wasn't 5th Estate, it was "The National"

The Recruiters (http://www.cbc.ca/national/news/recruiters/)

Nice to know that free speech in France doesn't apply to foreigners.

I'm glad I don't live in France.
You'd rather have priests preach women-beating?

blah blah blah france is liberal blah blah blah liberal is evil


cant you ignoramuses relate a story without introducing your moronic partisan bias?

Actually extreme Muslims first choice has always been the UK.. The CBC ran a story on it on "The 5th Estate"

I did not say all....I said many. Maybe France is waking up and will start sending those who are less tolerant home where they can practice their form of Islam in peace.

You'd rather have priests preach women-beating?

Government censorship, or inflammatory speeches?

Yes. I'd rather have priests preach wife-beating.

Nice to know that free speech in France doesn't apply to foreigners.
I'd be curious to know where you're living - and whether one is allowed to say that beating one's wife is perfectly fine?... anyway, about this imam, my opinion is that he's just an idiot - EVERYONE knows the Quran allows husbands to beat their wives, but no one should tell... at least in western democracies..

I did not say all....I said many. Maybe France is waking up and will start sending those who are less tolerant home where they can practice their form of Islam in peace.

I edited my post.. you can go to the link..

I'd be curious to know where you're living - and whether one is allowed to say that beating one's wife is perfectly fine?... anyway, about this imam, my opinion is that he's just an idiot - EVERYONE knows the Quran allows husbands to beat their wives, but no one should tell... at least in western democracies..

The U.S.A. and we're right in the middle of our own censorship issues. But nutcases are still allowed to say what they want. And we are still free to ridicule them.

I edited my post.. you can go to the link..

That countries like Britain and France allow these immigrants in is their business of course. But when their beliefs and practices are anathema to those of the citizens of Britain and France, it makes one wonder why they would ever allow such practices to go on as they do. Richard Reid, the moronic "shoe bomber" was indoctrinated in London's mosques. There are obviously other terrorists being prepared there as well. Non-Islamic countries should be on notice that the intolerant among the Muslim immigrants do present a danger.

The U.S.A. and we're right in the middle of our own censorship issues. But nutcases are still allowed to say what they want. And we are still free to ridicule them.

Really? I have not seen any censorship. I keep hearing about it...but since it and all manner of topics are being discussed, what is being censored?

The U.S.A. and we're right in the middle of our own censorship issues. But nutcases are still allowed to say what they want. And we are still free to ridicule them.
(sincerely interested ) so - let's imagine a Muslim has severely injured his wife, or to get out of this Islam issue let's imagine that a member of a neo-nazi group has injured a Jew or a Black - the perpertrator can be prosecuted, but not the one who preached violence in the first place? How can this be coherent?


(edit: sorry picked up the wrong quote)

I just KNEW that post would bring this exact response. ;)

There is nothing wrong with Islam....however, France has been the destination of choice for many of those who are less than tolerant. Is it because of France's very liberal and tolerant society? Probably. Are they waking up to what is going on in their country now, where many parts of Paris are run by Muslim clerics who enforce Muslim law over French law?

You might want to take a look at this video....

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/13/60minutes/main617270.shtml

I definately think that France should stand up to any legal system, such as Muslim law, that believes in sactioning killing as a punishment. France often does, for instance in her joint actions with her EU partners in standing up against the death penalty's continued use in some countries worldwide.

Really? I have not seen any censorship. I keep hearing about it...but since it and all manner of topics are being discussed, what is being censored?

Recently, several schools in my area have removed 'The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" from libraries. This has been attempted for decades, of course. Since I was in school. But what was once laughed away has now become a reality. Books are being banned.

The F.C.C. has made it policy to police our airwaves for anything that might be offensive to us. Rather than have us make up our own minds and change the channel. Heaven forbit we decide what to listen to and what not to ourselves.

The internet is heavily censored. When was the last time you tried to find "The Anarchist's Cookbook' online? Or in a library?

I definately think that France should stand up to any legal system, such as Muslim law, that believes in sactioning killing as a punishment. France often does, for instance in her joint actions with her EU partners in standing up against the death penalty's continued use in some countries worldwide.

The Muslim punishments are meted out AFTER the French courts are through with the perpetrators.

Really? I have not seen any censorship. I keep hearing about it...but since it and all manner of topics are being discussed, what is being censored?

Don't some American schools censor the teaching of natural history, promoting creationism above science?

Recently, several schools in my area have removed 'The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" from libraries. This has been attempted for decades, of course. Since I was in school. But what was once laughed away has now become a reality. Books are being banned.

The F.C.C. has made it policy to police our airwaves for anything that might be offensive to us. Rather than have us make up our own minds and change the channel. Heaven forbit we decide what to listen to and what not to ourselves.

The internet is heavily censored. When was the last time you tried to find "The Anarchist's Cookbook' online? Or in a library?

Groups have called for the banning of books since there have been books, that does not make it official policy.

The airwaves are owned by the public, therefore what goes out over them can be regulated. That some radio personalities decided to take things further than had been done before and were punished does not constitute censorship.

Actually I have found that "cookbook" online before. As for libraries...publicly owned and local statutes apply.

You'd rather have priests preach women-beating?
the Bible encourages both spousal abuse and child abuse, yet i don't see anybody working to ban it.

Has anyone here ever been to France? It's my second favorite country in the world (Besides Austria.)

Anywho, i have mixed feelings on this issue. I suppose it is a good thing....but what will stop this guy from preaching elsewhere?

(sincerely interested ) so - let's imagine a Muslim has severely injured his wife, or to get out of this Islam issue let's imagine that a member of a neo-nazi group has injured a Jew or a Black - the perpertrator can be prosecuted, but not the one who preached violence in the first place? How can this be coherent?

Ya got me....there are a number of imams who preach intolerance toward non-muslims. Maybe France is taking steps to get rid of the extremists. I certainly hope so.

cant you ignoramuses relate a story without introducing your moronic partisan bias?
Can't you post without flaming? Ever?

Good for France.
Like every other nation, they have the right to kick out any forigners they wish to. There are a couple of extremists preaching hate here, I would love our government to get rid of, but they are too gutless to do it.

Ya got me....there are a number of imams who preach intolerance toward non-muslims. Maybe France is taking steps to get rid of the extremists. I certainly hope so.
I'm in general favorable to tolerance, but this is about responsibility... where can someone be considered responsible upto, of the applications of the principes he preached... I don't have an answer to that, just wondering...

Can't you post without flaming? Ever?
the point stands

cant the right wing relate a story without including their asinine partisanship?

First: Wife-beating is bad. "Anybody"-beating is bad.
Second: Radical means "way out of the ordinary". That isn't necessarily bad - just unusual. Could be bad, could be good, could be indifferent. At one point in time it was radical to believe that women should have the right to vote. That was a GOOD radical belief.
Third: Fanatic almost always means bad - because fanatic beliefs/behavior pre-supposes that even it there are valid arguments that establish a particular belief/behavior as odious, a fanatic simply ignores that and continues with his/her fanatical belief/behaviors.

Now...the article states that the Imam in question says that he did NOT say that wife beating was a good thing. He says he said that the Koran allows for both wife-beating and the stoning of adulturers.

Which it does.

And, folks, please read the Old Testament carefully - the parts where wives are beaten and adulturers stoned.

Hmmm...

Now, if this Imam was really supporting the practices of beating ones wife to "correct" her behavior (or for any other reason), and/or stoning adulturers, then he should be thrown out of France - and every other country.

If he was really just stating that these things are contained in the Koran - then he should NOT be thrown out of France or any other country. Because that is just a statement of fact.

One is not a murderer, nor is one condoning the practice of murder, if one states that murder occurs in the bible (Cain - Able, for example). One is not a thief if one states that thievery occurs every day.

the point stands

cant the right wing relate a story without including their asinine partisanship?Is it possible to conduct a discussion without ever referring to "left", "right", "liberal", "conservative"?

Why censor the cleric when you can use him as a prime example of how not to be?

There is nothing wrong with Islam....however, France has been the destination of choice for many of those who are less than tolerant. Is it because of France's very liberal and tolerant society? Probably. Are they waking up to what is going on in their country now, where many parts of Paris are run by Muslim clerics who enforce Muslim law over French law?
Well, you know all about France, don't you? :rolleyes:

I thought libertarians liked tolerance. The real reason for guys like this in Muslim areas is due to the fact that Muslims in France are often poor and listen to maniacs like this. Another significant reason is that France, unlike the USA, has failed miserably in integrating immigrants into society. I think that this is because the French are fanatical nationalists (OK slight exaggeration ;)) and they don't like Algeria, the bastards.

Is it possible to conduct a discussion without ever referring to "left", "right", "liberal", "conservative"?
ok, you tell me how this topic has anything to do with france being "liberal" as biff put it

Actually extreme Muslims first choice has always been the UK.. The CBC ran a story on it on "The 5th Estate"

EDIT: Sorry it wasn't 5th Estate, it was "The National"

The Recruiters (http://www.cbc.ca/national/news/recruiters/)
Hmm yeah. They get lot's of Saudi dissidents. All of the likes of Osama Bin Bush.

Well, you know all about France, don't you? :rolleyes:

I thought libertarians liked tolerance. The real reason for guys like this in Muslim areas is due to the fact that Muslims in France are often poor and listen to maniacs like this. Another significant reason is that France, unlike the USA, has failed miserably in integrating immigrants into society. I think that this is because the French are fanatical nationalists (OK slight exaggeration ;)) and they don't like Algeria, the bastards.

No, I don't know "all" about France. Libertarians are tolerant to a point. However, even the Muslim immigrants to the US do not integrate well. That French "nationalists" have allowed 10% of their population to be made up of immigrants shows that they are more tolerant than you might give them credit for.

(sincerely interested ) so - let's imagine a Muslim has severely injured his wife, or to get out of this Islam issue let's imagine that a member of a neo-nazi group has injured a Jew or a Black - the perpertrator can be prosecuted, but not the one who preached violence in the first place? How can this be coherent?
Most of our legal systems are based on the bizarre idea that adults are responsible for their own actions. Even if guy #1 said the beating up your wife was good, and guy #2 does it, guy #2 is the one who gets prosecuted. He is responsible, because guy #1 does not directly control him.

Most of our legal systems are based on the bizarre idea that adults are responsible for their own actions. Even if guy #1 said the beating up your wife was good, and guy #2 does it, guy #2 is the one who gets prosecuted. He is responsible, because guy #1 does not directly control him.

So when Osama Bin Laden told some guys to go blow themselves up, he is not responsible. Or Charles Manson who told some people to go kill some other people. They are both guy #1 but they are just as responsible. So IF guy one "conspires" with Guy #2 then they are guilty.

ok, you tell me how this topic has anything to do with france being "liberal" as biff put itYou've misunderstood me. You have to read this as if I was saying,

"It is possible to hold a discussion without refering to "right", "left", "liberal", "conservative", and we ought to strive to do so"