NationStates Jolt Archive

Discuss.

No, they're not. It's just you.

On the first page, a lefty asked the same question. Only he thought everyone was left-haters.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=361937

Its about an even mix.

No, you're probably just ultra-right wing. Most of the people here are a bit left of center, but not ultra-liberal or socialist. You must remember, an American liberal is still a conservative in much of the rest of the world.

Bullshit.

I notice that for every one moderate person, there at 5 ultra Liberals, 4 Socialists, and 1 Communist. It's absurd. The future of this world is fucked.

My other post was in response to Bungeria...

I'm afraid you are wrong.

Bullshit.

I notice that for every one moderate person, there at 5 ultra Liberals, 4 Socialists, and 1 Communist. It's absurd. The future of this world is fucked.

So you really had no intention of listening to anyone else's opinions. You've already made your mind up. Excellent. Now this thread can be locked.

So you really had no intention of listening to anyone else's opinions. You've already made your mind up. Excellent. Now this thread can be locked.

Can you prove me wrong? I've been lurking around for about two weeks, and I notice that whenever someone says they are conservative, you have 10 come outta nowhere and bash them.

Bullshit.

I notice that for every one moderate person, there at 5 ultra Liberals, 4 Socialists, and 1 Communist. It's absurd. The future of this world is fucked.

Agreed. But be thankful that most of them are no older than 16 and will hopefully grow out of it when they move out of Mommy and Daddy's house and have to support themselves with a real job. Life's a bitch -wear a helmet.

Can you prove me wrong? I've been lurking around for about two weeks, and I notice that whenever someone says they are conservative, you have 10 come outta nowhere and bash them.
And everywhere there are ones who say they are lefties, 10 conservatives come out and bashes them.

Bullshit.

I notice that for every one moderate person, there at 5 ultra Liberals, 4 Socialists, and 1 Communist. It's absurd. The future of this world is fucked.

Yes. We still need to get rid of those moderates.

Can you prove me wrong? I've been lurking around for about two weeks, and I notice that whenever someone says they are conservative, you have 10 come outta nowhere and bash them.

Oh, with such sound scientific data such as, "I notice....", I have no possible way to refute you. You win. This site is horribly dominated by liberals.

Yes. We still need to get rid of those moderates.

We should get started on our torch-waving, pitchfork-carrying mob right away then. :cool:

Yeah, because the rest of us have jobs

We should get started on our torch-waving, pitchfork-carrying mob right away then.

Hmm...interesting thing to say. *Day-dreams of an Egor-like creature*

A hunchbacked stump of a little man stumbles across a night-stricken feild, his flight fueled by the smell of sulphur in the air - no doubt the matches used to light the torches that glew in the otherwise dark landscape behind him. He heard "Mob", that's all he needed to hear, becuase Mobs sure did love him in a very painful way. Those pitchforks hurt.

He suddenly stopped, looked around to see nothing, "Wait! They're not after me! They're after moderates...whew...wait - I am a Moderate!"

Interesting notion, Imperial Puerto Rico. Here's what I've noticed. When I first skimmed through these threads, I didn't come back for 5 months. They looked SO ultra right to me. In my home country I'm somewhat right from the center(I have to say a liberal to you is a still rightist to me - but that's just a cultural thing and beside the point).

When I did come back, I noticed I soon became numb to posts that even remotely resembled my views, but remembered the posters whose message was completely different from mine. So, when I read the threads, I seem to notice the views that counter mine better.

I've tried to distance myself (dunno if I have succeeded) a bit... and I think I notice every thread immediately gets the guys/gals of the opposite side all riled up. If the thread lasts in the front page long enough, it evens out considerably.

I don't know if I answered to your "question" at all.... but that was my 2 cents.

Even mix.

>>No, you're probably just ultra-right wing. Most of the people here are a bit left of center, but not ultra-liberal or socialist. You must remember, an American liberal is still a conservative in much of the rest of the world.<<

If that's the image you're getting from Americans, I really should have been born in Canada. I'm quite liberal. And *gasp* I actually have a job! Oh, no a lefty with a job! The HORROR! XP

-Nova

I'm with the other folks, with what I've seen, this place seems a bit leftish to me, but then I could just be saying that because I'm seriously old school republican.

"Republicans were a better party when they worshipped money, and not Jesus."

"Republicans were a better party when they worshipped money, and not Jesus." I don't agree with many things Republicans say, but I agree there.

I agree with you, Loluru. I believe that the reason most people here tend to think that their belief is a minority, and that everyone else opposes them, is becuase they tend to disregard the Posts that go along with what they believe. People notice things more when they get angry, they go to things that they know will make the blood boil...and, in some cases, that's the entire reason they go to that specific thing.

I like to go to the AFA (American Family Association) website, not because I like it, but because I disagree with nearly everything that they write. It gets my blood pumping, makes me think and feel alive.
I think that's why people don't notice the posts they agree with, and tend to gravitate towards those that have an opposite belief...knowing that, inevitably, it will either get them angry, prove them to be the "Righteous" one of the lot, and of course, feed their ego.

And all of our egos are starved here.
And NS is the Instant Grits of the 'Net.

Bullshit.

I notice that for every one moderate person, there at 5 ultra Liberals, 4 Socialists, and 1 Communist. It's absurd. The future of this world is fucked.

*ahem* This tells me all I really need to know about you. If your what a conservative is I am a proud left wing "liberal".

No. They are. And they're rabid! LOL!

Can you prove me wrong? I've been lurking around for about two weeks, and I notice that whenever someone says they are conservative, you have 10 come outta nowhere and bash them.

You have to realize that most of the posters on this forum are European or Canadian. There is also a high probability that they are also pre or just post pubescent as well. Their world view is scewed by their lack of experience with other cultures as wel. Thats why there is also a sizable number of anti-US posters as well. They have no "real" knowledge of the US so they run on what they hear their parents say.

Just go along with that knowledge and you will be ok. It is easy to get them riled up and while it is fun, I am also exploring ways to do it for both fun and profit. ;)

You have to realize that most of the posters on this forum are European or Canadian. There is also a high probability that they are also pre or just post pubescent as well. Their world view is scewed by their lack of experience with other cultures as wel. Thats why there is also a sizable number of anti-US posters as well. They have no "real" knowledge of the US so they run on what they hear their parents say.

Just go along with that knowledge and you will be ok. It is easy to get them riled up and while it is fun, I am also exploring ways to do it for both fun and profit. ;)
Hehehe.... this is pretty much was I was talking about... Are you sure most of people in your American party-bashing threads are Europeans and Canadians? I wouldn't be so sure. Some are, that's for certain. Some loud ones too... but...

Hehehe.... this is pretty much was I was talking about... Are you sure most of people in your American party-bashing threads are Europeans and Canadians? I wouldn't be so sure. Some are, that's for certain. Some loud ones too... but...

Oh I think you will find my assessment to be correct. ;)

Ok. I have to take your word on this Biff. I have read most of them cos international politics is my major.... but I seldomly look where the poster is from. I trust you have.

About the fact that most posters in this FORUM are Europeans and Canadians... I'm not so sure at all.

About the fact that most posters in this FORUM are Europeans and Canadians... I'm not so sure at all.

Oh I think you will find that I am right on that one too. The vitriol is so thick at times you could roof your house with it. ;)

IF you want to know the truth, put it into a poll.

Oh I think you will find that I am right on that one too. The vitriol is so thick at times you could roof your house with it. ;)
Oh? I'm sorry about that. Well, as I stated in my initial post in this thread... I tend to notice the posts of people who don't share my views... so, naturally I've read your posts. :D You have told that you've been around the world and in Europe too. I'm sure you have noticed the average people aren't so strongly anti-...anything (that must include USA). Surely you must know that these forums condense the hatred SOME people feel towards... well anything.

And, somebody must know the nationalities of all the posters here... I'd be surprised if Americans aren't in single majority.

I'm conservative. I think there's an even mix, and that the majority of conservatives here are scared that the liberals are going to eat them.

Oh? I'm sorry about that. Well, as I stated in my initial post in this thread... I tend to notice the posts of people who don't share my views... so, naturally I've read your posts. :D You have told that you've been around the world and in Europe too. I'm sure you have noticed the average people aren't so strongly anti-...anything (that must include USA). Surely you must know that these forums condense the hatred SOME people feel towards... well anything.

And, somebody must know the nationalities of all the posters here... I'd be surprised if Americans aren't in single majority.

Yeah, I tend to be controversial...I like to play the "devil's advocate" and bring out new topics. I have found most of our European friends to be, while not very knowledgeable about day to day life in the US, at least fairly well informed about politics here. However, their diatribes either for or against either candidate do surprise me. Some are so pro-Kerry that I fear I might go into insuline shock and others are so anti-Bush you would think he had killed their parents. I understand the liberal slant of the European and Canadian posters, afterall, the governments they live under tend to follow that train of thought. However, the US is a different animal and they just don't have the right grasp of it. maybe they will learn something if they can calm down and wipe the foam off their mouths. ;)

Well, yeah, I sure can see that happening Biff. I , on the other hand, have been eligible to vote for so long, I could have put Bush senior to the White House (if I was American that is). And I have been interested in politics since the Reagan era. I somehow can see why some Europeans are mad at Bush jr right now - you have had good republican presidents.

Liberal slant I don't, however, understand even as a concept.

:)

Discuss.

I'll come back and smash that claim just after I've taken my gimp for a walk.

yes I feel like I on a left version of the liberty forum at this site www.protestwarrior.com

Is it me, or is the majority horribly Ultra Liber and or Socialst here?

It is you. You are either from the extreme right, or from the USA, or both.

Is it me, or is the majority horribly Ultra Liber and or Socialst here?

No its not just you, they are. Damn commies.... :mad: oh look, your favorite color...RED!

You have to realize that most of the posters on this forum are European or Canadian. There is also a high probability that they are also pre or just post pubescent as well. Their world view is scewed by their lack of experience with other cultures as wel. Thats why there is also a sizable number of anti-US posters as well. They have no "real" knowledge of the US so they run on what they hear their parents say.
So you think that all of us who experience the world and achieve enlightenment must move towards the libertarian right? Fantastic.

I can think of two or three anti-US posters, I don't call that sizeable (I don't consider criticism of US foreign policy to be "anti-US"). I agree that many of us Europeans think we know ore about the US than we actually do, but we don't go by just what our parents say. Every day we get US culture and news relating to the US. Many of us also read history and political books and websites regarding the US.

So you think that all of us who experience the world and achieve enlightenment must move towards the libertarian right? Fantastic.

I can think of two or three anti-US posters, I don't call that sizeable (I don't consider criticism of US foreign policy to be "anti-US"). I agree that many of us Europeans think we know ore about the US than we actually do, but we don't go by just what our parents say. Every day we get US culture and news relating to the US. Many of us also read history and political books and websites regarding the US.

I think that as you experience more of the world you will naturally move towards the libertarian right. It comes with age and wisdom. Accept it as a natural part of life....then cry. ;)

I think that as you experience more of the world you will naturally move towards the libertarian right. It comes with age and wisdom. Accept it as a natural part of life....then cry. ;)

Well, I am 30 (almost 31,) so while I'm not exactly an old graybeard, I find myself to be travelling slowly to the left as I grow and learn and gain the experience to put myself in other's shoes. As time goes by, and I further and further understand the complexities of socio-political-economics around the world, I more clearly see the damage done by right-wing philosophy.
I see the right-wing movement as an effort do isolate us socially from the world while, more and more, flexing our supposedly moral muscles, causeing a condition where we understand the world less, but meddle in it more.

If you find yourself moving more and more to the libertarian right as time goes by, then I see it as an effort to withdraw from an increasingly scary and complex world.

You can't be too sure about that... much of the world is left out if you judge it by what gets in books etc. To know a country, first visit it, travel around it, talk to its people.

Yeah, I tend to be controversial...I like to play the "devil's advocate" and bring out new topics. I have found most of our European friends to be, while not very knowledgeable about day to day life in the US, at least fairly well informed about politics here. However, their diatribes either for or against either candidate do surprise me. Some are so pro-Kerry that I fear I might go into insuline shock and others are so anti-Bush you would think he had killed their parents. I understand the liberal slant of the European and Canadian posters, afterall, the governments they live under tend to follow that train of thought. However, the US is a different animal and they just don't have the right grasp of it. maybe they will learn something if they can calm down and wipe the foam off their mouths. ;)

You're probably right, we can never hope to completely understand the USA. But I think it's probably fair to say that Europeans in general are more informed as to what is happening in the USA than Americans are in general as to what is happening in Europe. We can easily receive American television news programmes and USA gets quite heavy coverage in our media. Whenever I watch American tv-news, I'm struck by the lack of non-USA based stories they cover (aside from about the latest war USA is involved in). I wonder how many Americans actually watch or listen to any European media at all? Plus many Americans simply can't listen or watch our media as it's in a language that they won't speak, whereas many Europeans can speak English, which obviously makes it easier for us to listen/watch American media.

As for Kerry vs. Bush in Europe, I don't think our general support (65-70% plus in many countries) is because of some super-enthusiasm for Kerry. It's more to do with a disgust at Bush and his policies. I think to many Europeans he comes across as incredibly arrogant and dismissive of world opinion. So, it's more distaste with Bush than some kind of massive pro-Kerry movement.

As for the bit about Europeans governments following a liberal trail of thought, I don't really understand that, as it depends on who is at government at which time in which country. The word liberal also has a completely different meaning in most of Europe to the definition of it in the USA.

I actually think that this forum has a pretty diverse group posting to it... it is definately U.S-centered, because many posters are from the U.S, and I wouldn't mind a more international forum, but on the whole, I name thee good:) There are neo-nazi nutcases (I think it's good to know what the wackos are up to though), lefties and righties and in-betweenies...lions and tigers and bears, oh my! There IS, however, too much whining about there being too many (left/right/black/white/insert designation here)...if you only want to discuss things with people of your own persuasion...then why are you here?

Well, I am 30 (almost 31,) so while I'm not exactly an old graybeard, I find myself to be travelling slowly to the left as I grow and learn and gain the experience to put myself in other's shoes. As time goes by, and I further and further understand the complexities of socio-political-economics around the world, I more clearly see the damage done by right-wing philosophy.
I see the right-wing movement as an effort do isolate us socially from the world while, more and more, flexing our supposedly moral muscles, causeing a condition where we understand the world less, but meddle in it more.

If you find yourself moving more and more to the libertarian right as time goes by, then I see it as an effort to withdraw from an increasingly scary and complex world.

Since you are from California I can understand your position. California has always confounded the rest of the country. However, all is not lost and there is still time for you to come around.

As we get older, we aquire things such as homes, cars, some amount of savings and we would like to hold onto these things. That turns us into more "conservative" than we might have been previously. So when the politicians come up with some new "feel good" program that will cost us more in taxes, you can forgive us for being "less" than enthusiastic about it. Thats why Kerry can never get my support. He WILL raise our taxes to pay for his socialized medical care. I support myself and my family and pay for our health insurance, I don't feel the need to have my taxes raised to help pay for someone elses.

You're probably right, we can never hope to completely understand the USA. But I think it's probably fair to say that Europeans in general are more informed as to what is happening in the USA than Americans are in general as to what is happening in Europe. We can easily receive American television news programmes and USA gets quite heavy coverage in our media. Whenever I watch American tv-news, I'm struck by the lack of non-USA based stories they cover (aside from about the latest war USA is involved in). I wonder how many Americans actually watch or listen to any European media at all? Plus many Americans simply can't listen or watch our media as it's in a language that they won't speak, whereas many Europeans can speak English, which obviously makes it easier for us to listen/watch American media.

As for Kerry vs. Bush in Europe, I don't think our general support (65-70% plus in many countries) is because of some super-enthusiasm for Kerry. It's more to do with a disgust at Bush and his policies. I think to many Europeans he comes across as incredibly arrogant and dismissive of world opinion. So, it's more distaste with Bush than some kind of massive pro-Kerry movement.

As for the bit about Europeans governments following a liberal trail of thought, I don't really understand that, as it depends on who is at government at which time in which country. The word liberal also has a completely different meaning in most of Europe to the definition of it in the USA.

You are correct, we in the US do not get a whole lot of European news stories. However, they ARE there is we want to see them. The differences in cultures has more to do with this though. When I lived in the UK, I was pretty much bored out of my mind. There was so little to do. However, here in the US, there is something to do 24 hours a day if one so desires. We hardly slow down to watch our own news, much less anyone elses. I have several foreign news channels on my satellite TV system, and I watch them ocassionally.

As for Bush, yeah he has made some mistakes and I disagree with him on a LOT of domestic issues, but when it comes to Iraq, he did the right thing. The US and Britain were containing Saddam alone and that could not go on forever. That France, Germany and Russia were doing backdoor deals with Saddam and got caught is why they are so angry about it. They will get over it in time. Kerry will not be able to bring any other of our "allies" into Iraq even though he says he can. I do not trust him at all.

You are correct, we in the US do not get a whole lot of European news stories. However, they ARE there is we want to see them. The differences in cultures has more to do with this though. When I lived in the UK, I was pretty much bored out of my mind. There was so little to do. However, here in the US, there is something to do 24 hours a day if one so desires. We hardly slow down to watch our own news, much less anyone elses. I have several foreign news channels on my satellite TV system, and I watch them ocassionally.

As for Bush, yeah he has made some mistakes and I disagree with him on a LOT of domestic issues, but when it comes to Iraq, he did the right thing. The US and Britain were containing Saddam alone and that could not go on forever. That France, Germany and Russia were doing backdoor deals with Saddam and got caught is why they are so angry about it. They will get over it in time. Kerry will not be able to bring any other of our "allies" into Iraq even though he says he can. I do not trust him at all.

There's plenty to do in the UK! London is a great city in my opinion, as is Manchester.

Anyway, I think that is as much a misrepresentation of the German, French and Russian cases against the war as the US government's misrepresentation of the case for war vis-a-vis the "links" between Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda. I'm not really sure why some in USA are so obsessed by rubishing France and Germany (in particular) for their stance against the war. I guess it's because, along with Russia, they were all on the UN Security Council at the time. If you look though, there were many countries also against the war that haven't been singled out for the same vocal critisism.
For instance, here's the statement from the Finnish president after the war started:

"Finland laments that the US and its allies have begun military action against Iraq.

Use of military force without the UN Security Council's specific authorisation is not acceptable."

And here's what our Prime Minister here in Sweden, Göran Persson, said after the war started:

"I regret that this war has now broken out. The attack on Iraq is in contravention of international law and threatens the lives of thousands of people."

Yes, whilst the America was busy renaming "french fries", Nokia and Ikea didn't seem to get picked on?

The only Swedish thing which Americans complain about is BBB, and thats only 'cause they're jealous.

There's plenty to do in the UK! London is a great city in my opinion, as is Manchester.

Anyway, I think that is as much a misrepresentation of the German, French and Russian cases against the war as the US government's misrepresentation of the case for war vis-a-vis the "links" between Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda. I'm not really sure why some in USA are so obsessed by rubishing France and Germany (in particular) for their stance against the war. I guess it's because, along with Russia, they were all on the UN Security Council at the time. If you look though, there were many countries also against the war that haven't been singled out for the same vocal critisism.
For instance, here's the statement from the Finnish president after the war started:

"Finland laments that the US and its allies have begun military action against Iraq.

Use of military force without the UN Security Council's specific authorisation is not acceptable."

And here's what our Prime Minister here in Sweden, Göran Persson, said after the war started:

"I regret that this war has now broken out. The attack on Iraq is in contravention of international law and threatens the lives of thousands of people."

Yes, whilst the America was busy renaming "french fries", Nokia and Ikea didn't seem to get picked on?

France, Germany and Russia were making deals with Saddam in violation of the trade sanctions. France actively worked AGAINST the US vis-a-vie Iraq. Chiraq told Saddam that France would use it's veto on the security council to block any action by the US. THATS why there is a backlash against France here in the US. They got caught doing something they should not have been doing.....

Yes, there IS plenty to do in London....but I lived in a small village 60 miles from London.

Well if you lived in a small village 60 miles from New York there wouldn't be much to do either, I would think.

Since you are from California I can understand your position. California has always confounded the rest of the country. However, all is not lost and there is still time for you to come around.

As we get older, we aquire things such as homes, cars, some amount of savings and we would like to hold onto these things. That turns us into more "conservative" than we might have been previously. So when the politicians come up with some new "feel good" program that will cost us more in taxes, you can forgive us for being "less" than enthusiastic about it. Thats why Kerry can never get my support. He WILL raise our taxes to pay for his socialized medical care. I support myself and my family and pay for our health insurance, I don't feel the need to have my taxes raised to help pay for someone elses.

Hey, I'm all for taxes if the bring a good return, such as under Clinton when the average person's earnings went up and crime went down. Social security, definitely a concern as one gets older, is certainly stronger under Democrats. Considering that medical expenses went up 50% under Bush, I can only conclude that my small benefit from the tax cut was more than counteracted by rising expenses.
Also, as I grow older, I see that some of the "things", material posessions, are less important that the corporations would want us to believe. What is important is family and community, rational thought and understanding. Monetary security is great, but beyond that is just selfish self-interest, and I see the Republicans as the party of selfish self-interest, hardly a mature concept in my book.

I have no problem with my taxes supporting someone else, if that, indeed, raises that standard of living of myself and those around me. That's what we saw under Clinton, and that's the opposite of what we're seeing under Bush.

I hardly see it as a responsible, mature approach to push my problems off on the next generation and beyond, and that's exactly what Bush has done with his deficits and his horrible environmental policy.

Is it mature to push away old allies just because they happen to disagree with you? Allies who are valuable trade and defense partners, as long as they are respected?

Is it mature to weaken the Constitution by allowing erosion of the 4th Amendment?

Age should give one a longer view, and the Bush administration loves to give you a short-term bribe at the expense of your long-term comfort.

France, Germany and Russia were making deals with Saddam in violation of the trade sanctions. France actively worked AGAINST the US vis-a-vie Iraq. Chiraq told Saddam that France would use it's veto on the security council to block any action by the US. THATS why there is a backlash against France here in the US. They got caught doing something they should not have been doing.....



...and USA invaded Iraq against international law, that's why there's been a backlash against Bush's administration in many parts of Europe.

Chirac used the veto because any invasion would be against international law and the UN weapons' inspectors lead by Hans Blix hadn't had time to finish their job. France had the courage to stand up to America on this matter. Unforunately, as we can see by USA's reaction to France, USA (the self-styled home of democracy) is not prepared to listen to any critisism of its actions. The UN had also not found any evidence of WMDs in Iraq. Of course, noone else has either since. The USA also argued that there was a link between Hussein's (distasteful) regime and Al-Qaeda. There clearly wasn't. So, two of the major reasons for the whole war have disappeared.

The vitriol is so thick at times you could roof your house with it. ;)

oooh. Nice mixed metaphor there. You do know that vitriol is sulphuric acid, yes?

(in response to thread title)
I used to think that - now I think it's a bit more balanced between moderates and extremists on both sides.

But me, I'm libertarian, so . . . I'm neither

oooh. Nice mixed metaphor there. You do know that vitriol is sulphuric acid, yes?

In defense of Biff, vitriol is also a term for caustic (heh) rhetoric, not necessarily a metaphor for same.

In other words, attack his points, not his word choice.

Well if you lived in a small village 60 miles from New York there wouldn't be much to do either, I would think.

I don't know....I live 25 miles from downtown Orlando and there is PLENTY to do.

I think that as you experience more of the world you will naturally move towards the libertarian right. It comes with age and wisdom. Accept it as a natural part of life....then cry. ;)

Given Zeppistan and I are both pushing 40.. (Zeppistan is closer..*LOL*) I think we have just as much wisdom as you, you don't know what of the world we have travelled or what we do and do not know. We disagree with you 100%. So do a large majority of the free world. But believe as you wish.. and you had the nerve to say I think I'm superior.. :rolleyes:

...and USA invaded Iraq against international law, that's why there's been a backlash against Bush's administration in many parts of Europe.

Chirac used the veto because any invasion would be against international law and the UN weapons' inspectors lead by Hans Blix hadn't had time to finish their job. France had the courage to stand up to America on this matter. Unforunately, as we can see by USA's reaction to France, USA (the self-styled home of democracy) is not prepared to listen to any critisism of its actions. The UN had also not found any evidence of WMDs in Iraq. Of course, noone else has either since. The USA also argued that there was a link between Hussein's (distasteful) regime and Al-Qaeda. There clearly wasn't. So, two of the major reasons for the whole war have disappeared.

France got caught violating the sanctions. Bush has REPEATEDLY said there was no DIRECT connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda. There WAS a meeting or two though. That took place in Prague. I am not surprised at the Europeans being angry with Bush. Every US president that has acted unilaterally has been chastized by them. Such is life for the man at the top.

In other words, attack his points, not his word choice.

It wasn't an attack it was an indication of my enjoyment.

Given Zeppistan and I are both pushing 40.. (Zeppistan is closer..*LOL*) I think we have just as much wisdom as you, you don't know what of the world we have travelled or what we do and do not know. We disagree with you 100%. So do a large majority of the free world. But believe as you wish.. and you had the nerve to say I think I'm superior.. :rolleyes:

You are correct, I do not know your world. Canada being such a liberal place it would be darn near impossible for anyone to shift to the right without a torch wielding mob forming outside their home. I am curious to see how your minority government will do. Lets watch shall we? ;) As for being superior? I am not...I just have a wider world view than some.

I just have a wider world view than some.

You don't know that... you assume that. I will agree with the under 21 group you probably do. However there are quite a few of us who have travelled the world..I could so gloat here about who my husband's father is, but I won't because A) I don't want to give him away and B) I don't want to be accused of being "superior" again.. You come to a forum that is dominated by A) Americans and B) young people , and you feel that you can flex your age and wisdom.. in some forums I go to with 100% adults you'd be eaten alive!

Hey, I'm all for taxes if the bring a good return, such as under Clinton when the average person's earnings went up and crime went down. Social security, definitely a concern as one gets older, is certainly stronger under Democrats. Considering that medical expenses went up 50% under Bush, I can only conclude that my small benefit from the tax cut was more than counteracted by rising expenses.
Also, as I grow older, I see that some of the "things", material posessions, are less important that the corporations would want us to believe. What is important is family and community, rational thought and understanding. Monetary security is great, but beyond that is just selfish self-interest, and I see the Republicans as the party of selfish self-interest, hardly a mature concept in my book.

I have no problem with my taxes supporting someone else, if that, indeed, raises that standard of living of myself and those around me. That's what we saw under Clinton, and that's the opposite of what we're seeing under Bush.

I hardly see it as a responsible, mature approach to push my problems off on the next generation and beyond, and that's exactly what Bush has done with his deficits and his horrible environmental policy.

Is it mature to push away old allies just because they happen to disagree with you? Allies who are valuable trade and defense partners, as long as they are respected?

Is it mature to weaken the Constitution by allowing erosion of the 4th Amendment?

Age should give one a longer view, and the Bush administration loves to give you a short-term bribe at the expense of your long-term comfort.

Actually my pay went down under Clinton. Of course I was in the military and MANY were bailing out to make more money in the civilian world. I resisted that temptation and stayed to retire.

As for taxes, as a Libertarian, I decry ALL forms of taxation, but even I can admit that mine is a lonely cry in the wilderness.

As for crime, it is STILL on the decline, so Clinton was not the fix-all for that either.

Social Security? It is finished in my book, I do not expect to ever see a dime of the money I paid into it come back to me. That is another program we need to scrap. In todays world of mutual funds and individual investing, having a government run program is assinine.

How has the 4th amendment actually been weakened? I hear this all the time, but no evidence except that cry about the patriot act....didn't Kerry also vote for that? I think he did.

Clinton was not the messiah that some seem to think he was. He did a lot of damage as well as good. He did nothing to fight terrorists. He should have gone into Afganistan after the embassies were bombed in 1998. He did not. Now, if you say that he would never have gotten that past Congress I will scream. He would not HAVE to. Presidents have a 90 day window to use force as needed and he could and should have. Clinton was a poll watcher and NOT a leader.

Lastly, you will forgive me if I do not share your enthusiasm for paying taxes. I earn my money and having it taken away from me under duress to give to someone else is not something I particularly enjoy. We receive nothing in return for our taxes. We are taxed on "phantom" income as well. Taxes are so out of control and anyone who does not see that is blind. Now Kerry says he will go on another wild spending spree to provide health insurance for those who don't have it. Why should I be forced to subsidize someone elses health insurance? Noone subsidizes mine.

I truly believe that if Clinton could run again and you put him up against Bushie Jr. Clinton would win in a landslide!

Clinton wouldn't even work up a sweat beating him.

Even after all that Clinton has done, a majority of the world still likes him.

You don't know that... you assume that. I will agree with the under 21 group you probably do. However there are quite a few of us who have travelled the world..I could so gloat here about who my husband's father is, but I won't because A) I don't want to give him away and B) I don't want to be accused of being "superior" again.. You come to a forum that is dominated by A) Americans and B) young people , and you feel that you can flex your age and wisdom.. in some forums I go to with 100% adults you'd be eaten alive!

Yes I assume so, but my assumption is based on several factors. Not one of which happens to be who my father-in-law is. :rolleyes: There are so many posters here who spout their opinions of the US or other countries, yet they have never even been to these countries, so their views are scewed by personal beliefs based on conjecture at best. I on the other hand base my opinions of other countries based on my personal experiences. THAT is the difference. As for this forum being dominated by Americans, I think you are wildly mistaken there. If you think I would be eaten alive, then you are underestimating me once again and as John Edwards found out last night, it is not good to underestimate anyone.